I don’t think it’s sad that you think that, Ophelia, because it’s not just Creationism that Americans are stupid about. And that is what’s really sad.
Thesandiseattle, the number of people who believe in Creationism in America is an indicator of just how stupid this country has sunk. We want open minds, not empty minds.
noxiousnansays
Open mindedness when it comes to who believes in Creationism is irrelevant, I think. You’d have an argument for open mindedness with regard to ID, but Creationism is a bit of a different thing. It’s scientifically verifiable that the planet is well over 6k years old. I suggest thesandiseattle watch Cosmos, episode 3, When Knowledge Conquered Fear.
tonyinbataviasays
thesandiseattle @1, maybe this answer will suit you better:
“Because those backwards-assed, superstitious-laden dimwits willingly ignore, choose to dismiss, or never learned the overwhelming consensus of every major branch of modern science, which has done more to advance human knowledge in the last 200 years than the previous 50,000 years combined.”
*meh* Don’t expect this leopard to change its spots, chigau. Mama always said, “Stupid is as stupid does.”
Still, there’s an important aspect to the subject of this topic. A fairly recent study of how parents’ religiosity or lack thereof shows that it is overwhelmingly the FATHER’s religiosity that positively influences the religiosity their children will display in adulthood. The MOTHER’s effect is largely negative! So the fact that organized religion is overwhelmingly dominated by women bodes ill for religion and well for the rest of us (noticing that the largest generation ever, the Millennials, is the least likely to be Christian, most likely to be atheist, and least likely to be found attending any church service). The study: http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-05-024-v
That said, a mother has to be careful about taking any strong stand, because that is precisely what the children will use to rebel against in the teen years! I was less wise with my eldest, especially when he was bullied by Christians for not being a Christian; now he regularly attends church and (rarely) refers to himself as a Christian. But I’m pretty sure it’s all for the social benefits – I never see him reading a bible or behaving in any sort of repressed or indoctrinated manner at home.
Having homeschooled up to high school, I taught both my children to think critically and that there are numerous spiritual options in life, any of which they are free to choose if they feel they need something like that (and they can take as many as they want!), with the option of “No thanks” if that is what suits them. They should decide for themselves.
Let Dad demonstrate his disinterest in religion while Mom remains ambiguous and neutral – I think this is the best recipe for armoring children against the poisonous influence of religion. For my part, I gave my son a large, wood-covered Bible from the mid-1800s that was in our family, and cheerfully ask him how church was every time he goes 😛
ah58says
@thesandiseattle: “Open minded” as in if it contradicts the bible it’s automatically rejected?
RJWsays
I’ve looked at international surveys on belief in Creationism and America is definitely an outlier in comparison with other OECD counties. It’s really puzzling to me, as a foreigner, how this bizarre phenomenon could occur in the US when the nation is such a scientific powerhouse.
psanitysays
Sad that you think that. Truly sad. “open minded” yeah, right.
Know what I think is sad? A person who hangs around here for years being inane and periodically changing their nym slightly, thus popping out of my hushfile. That’s sad.
suttkussays
You have to remember, the US was founded by religious extremists. As Europe was becoming more and more religiously free, the groups that couldn’t stand that founded colonies in the new world. Despite the common refrain taught to children in the US, that the colonists came seeking religious freedom, they largely came to establish theocracies, specifically to escape religious freedom. That’s our legacy. The US was forged from the religious extremists that you Europeans got rid of.
So, if you let us know how you did it, I’ll pay!
But I do object to the picture at the top of the article. Creationists aren’t stupid. Well, aren’t necessarily stupid, there are certainly very stupid creationists out there. Creationists are ignorant. They’ve been failed by their parents, failed by their school system, failed by their government. That’s on all of us. We need to fix this, not let the forces of religious fundamentalism screw up the school system more.
As for open minded, I’ve been asking creationists for years what evidence would convince them that creationism was false. I’ve yet to get a decent answer. I’m still waiting. Who is closed-minded again?
Blanche Quiznosays
Case in point: Puritan Rev. John Cotton approved of the police searching all the houses on Sunday mornings and dragging anyone they found to church. Because, you see, if people were *FORCED* to go to church, that meant they were being forced to give the “outward man” to “god”, whereas if they were let alone, they would choose to given neither the “outward man” nor the “inward man” to “god”. Fortunately for us all, the Puritans are now extinct.
Let’s also not forget how the Puritans savagely persecuted anyone who wasn’t Puritan per se. They were vicious and murderous toward their fellow Christians, the Quakers – they imprisoned them, fined them, branded them on the face, flogged them, drove them out of town, and even executed them! Christians killing Christians! Yay!
Finally, the Puritans had very strict rules over how people were allowed/required to dress, style their hair, whether or not men could wear beards and how those must be trimmed, etc. etc. etc. The Puritan theocracies of the “religious freedom” New World colonies bore far more of a resemblance to the Islamic theocracies today than to any of the developed democracies’ versions of Christianity (where Christianity is neither allowed to meddle in politics nor to force people by threat of harm and violence into joining in), which probably explains why Christianity is in steep decline throughout the developed democracies.
RJWsays
@11
“…they largely came to establish theocracies, specifically to escape religious freedom. That’s our legacy. The US was forged from the religious extremists that you Europeans got rid of.” ( BTW If you’re referring to me, I’m Australian not European.)
The celebrated ‘Pilgrim Fathers’ always seemed more persecutors than persecuted. We had our share of wannabe Christian theocrats here in Australia as well, however they were never as influential as their US counterparts. We’ve also had two ‘agnostic’ and one openly atheist Prime Ministers
Yes, agreed, there’s a psychological component to religious belief that often seems to be neglected in discussions about Creationism.
I’m not being complacent about the influence of religious loonies in our education system either, particularly in states with conservative governments, they will never give up.
As per usual, aspersions and hypocrisy. The religious troll (#1) pretends to be “offended” at language directed at the religious, but takes no offense at language aimed at critics (e.g. “they’re evil”, “exterminate them” type of stuff).
I saw a profanity and mockery in that picture, but no threats as the religious are wont to do.
Chigau@15: didn’t they rename themselves ‘Congregationalists’?
Trebuchetsays
@16: I think that’s more or less correct. Ironically, the modern United Church of Christ (formerly Congregational Church) is one of the most liberal denominations.
Sad that you think that. Truly sad. “open minded” yeah, right.
@thesandiseattle
Define “open minded”.
I don’t think it’s sad that you think that, Ophelia, because it’s not just Creationism that Americans are stupid about. And that is what’s really sad.
Thesandiseattle, the number of people who believe in Creationism in America is an indicator of just how stupid this country has sunk. We want open minds, not empty minds.
Open mindedness when it comes to who believes in Creationism is irrelevant, I think. You’d have an argument for open mindedness with regard to ID, but Creationism is a bit of a different thing. It’s scientifically verifiable that the planet is well over 6k years old. I suggest thesandiseattle watch Cosmos, episode 3, When Knowledge Conquered Fear.
thesandiseattle @1, maybe this answer will suit you better:
“Because those backwards-assed, superstitious-laden dimwits willingly ignore, choose to dismiss, or never learned the overwhelming consensus of every major branch of modern science, which has done more to advance human knowledge in the last 200 years than the previous 50,000 years combined.”
Me, I still prefer the original answer.
sandiseattle
Look what I found
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/19/creepy-ol-kent-hovind-imagines/#comment-798022
*meh* Don’t expect this leopard to change its spots, chigau. Mama always said, “Stupid is as stupid does.”
Still, there’s an important aspect to the subject of this topic. A fairly recent study of how parents’ religiosity or lack thereof shows that it is overwhelmingly the FATHER’s religiosity that positively influences the religiosity their children will display in adulthood. The MOTHER’s effect is largely negative! So the fact that organized religion is overwhelmingly dominated by women bodes ill for religion and well for the rest of us (noticing that the largest generation ever, the Millennials, is the least likely to be Christian, most likely to be atheist, and least likely to be found attending any church service). The study: http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-05-024-v
That said, a mother has to be careful about taking any strong stand, because that is precisely what the children will use to rebel against in the teen years! I was less wise with my eldest, especially when he was bullied by Christians for not being a Christian; now he regularly attends church and (rarely) refers to himself as a Christian. But I’m pretty sure it’s all for the social benefits – I never see him reading a bible or behaving in any sort of repressed or indoctrinated manner at home.
Having homeschooled up to high school, I taught both my children to think critically and that there are numerous spiritual options in life, any of which they are free to choose if they feel they need something like that (and they can take as many as they want!), with the option of “No thanks” if that is what suits them. They should decide for themselves.
Let Dad demonstrate his disinterest in religion while Mom remains ambiguous and neutral – I think this is the best recipe for armoring children against the poisonous influence of religion. For my part, I gave my son a large, wood-covered Bible from the mid-1800s that was in our family, and cheerfully ask him how church was every time he goes 😛
@thesandiseattle: “Open minded” as in if it contradicts the bible it’s automatically rejected?
I’ve looked at international surveys on belief in Creationism and America is definitely an outlier in comparison with other OECD counties. It’s really puzzling to me, as a foreigner, how this bizarre phenomenon could occur in the US when the nation is such a scientific powerhouse.
Know what I think is sad? A person who hangs around here for years being inane and periodically changing their nym slightly, thus popping out of my hushfile. That’s sad.
You have to remember, the US was founded by religious extremists. As Europe was becoming more and more religiously free, the groups that couldn’t stand that founded colonies in the new world. Despite the common refrain taught to children in the US, that the colonists came seeking religious freedom, they largely came to establish theocracies, specifically to escape religious freedom. That’s our legacy. The US was forged from the religious extremists that you Europeans got rid of.
So, if you let us know how you did it, I’ll pay!
But I do object to the picture at the top of the article. Creationists aren’t stupid. Well, aren’t necessarily stupid, there are certainly very stupid creationists out there. Creationists are ignorant. They’ve been failed by their parents, failed by their school system, failed by their government. That’s on all of us. We need to fix this, not let the forces of religious fundamentalism screw up the school system more.
As for open minded, I’ve been asking creationists for years what evidence would convince them that creationism was false. I’ve yet to get a decent answer. I’m still waiting. Who is closed-minded again?
Case in point: Puritan Rev. John Cotton approved of the police searching all the houses on Sunday mornings and dragging anyone they found to church. Because, you see, if people were *FORCED* to go to church, that meant they were being forced to give the “outward man” to “god”, whereas if they were let alone, they would choose to given neither the “outward man” nor the “inward man” to “god”. Fortunately for us all, the Puritans are now extinct.
Let’s also not forget how the Puritans savagely persecuted anyone who wasn’t Puritan per se. They were vicious and murderous toward their fellow Christians, the Quakers – they imprisoned them, fined them, branded them on the face, flogged them, drove them out of town, and even executed them! Christians killing Christians! Yay!
Finally, the Puritans had very strict rules over how people were allowed/required to dress, style their hair, whether or not men could wear beards and how those must be trimmed, etc. etc. etc. The Puritan theocracies of the “religious freedom” New World colonies bore far more of a resemblance to the Islamic theocracies today than to any of the developed democracies’ versions of Christianity (where Christianity is neither allowed to meddle in politics nor to force people by threat of harm and violence into joining in), which probably explains why Christianity is in steep decline throughout the developed democracies.
@11
“…they largely came to establish theocracies, specifically to escape religious freedom. That’s our legacy. The US was forged from the religious extremists that you Europeans got rid of.” ( BTW If you’re referring to me, I’m Australian not European.)
The celebrated ‘Pilgrim Fathers’ always seemed more persecutors than persecuted. We had our share of wannabe Christian theocrats here in Australia as well, however they were never as influential as their US counterparts. We’ve also had two ‘agnostic’ and one openly atheist Prime Ministers
“Creationists aren’t stupid. Well, aren’t necessarily stupid,”
Yes, agreed, there’s a psychological component to religious belief that often seems to be neglected in discussions about Creationism.
I’m not being complacent about the influence of religious loonies in our education system either, particularly in states with conservative governments, they will never give up.
As per usual, aspersions and hypocrisy. The religious troll (#1) pretends to be “offended” at language directed at the religious, but takes no offense at language aimed at critics (e.g. “they’re evil”, “exterminate them” type of stuff).
I saw a profanity and mockery in that picture, but no threats as the religious are wont to do.
http://mybroadband.co.za/photos/data/500/Christians-vs-Atheists.png
Quakers still exist.
Puritans …?
Chigau@15: didn’t they rename themselves ‘Congregationalists’?
@16: I think that’s more or less correct. Ironically, the modern United Church of Christ (formerly Congregational Church) is one of the most liberal denominations.