left0ver1under
I believe Wanda Sykes may disagree.
(But it’s not the punching down kind, so there’s that…)
Blanche Quiznosays
Hey, Ophelia! There seems to be something gone wonky with your next post, which is linked at the top of this page as “Next Post” rather than by its title, “Another Bad Model”. Also, “Another Bad Model” won’t accept comments…
Thanks Blanche. Damn this thing! That’s the second time. I checked it, and it posted properly, with title. Grrrrrr
Shatterfacesays
There’s a sitcom in the UK called Vicious about a hate-filled old gay couple (Derek Jacobi and Ian McKellan) written by Gary Jenetti (Will and Grace) and Mark Ravenhill which features a lot of rape gags targeted at their ‘friend’ and aging ‘fag hag’ Violet (Frances de la Tour).
Sample joke:
Violet (on hearing there’s a young man in the toilet):I’m so frightened I’m going to be raped! Freddie: For God’s sake! Nobody’s going to rape you! Violet: What an awful thing to say!
The defence of these jokes is that they’re satirising the awfulness of the gay couple but from the example above they’re clearly putting the desire for rape in Violet’s mouth.
Hibernia86says
Saying that white men harassing women is the least edgy thing that a white man could do is suggesting that it is the thing that white men do most, when most white men do not harass women. Jamie doesn’t seem to understand that racism and sexism are still wrong even if he aims it at his own race and sex.
dexitrobopersays
most white men do not harass women
[citation needed]
A. Noydsays
Anyone who likes to say “not all like that” or its equivalent should read this.
Hibernia86says
@dexitroboper: Seriously? You really think that most white men harass women? Let me guess, you also believe that most black people are criminals. I think you need to stop making bigoted over generalizations about people.
@ A. Noyd. So you think that if some of a group does something bad then it is okay to hate the entire group. So if a man’s sister gets raped by a Mexican man, should he hate all Mexicans? That is the problem with the picture above. Rather than deal with a serious issue (when are rape jokes appropriate) it instead makes a ridiculous over generalization in the other direction.
A. Noydsays
Hibernia86 (#10)
So you think that if some of a group does something bad then it is okay to hate the entire group.
Clearly you didn’t read the link. But here, have my standard response:
When you say “we’re not all like that” to oppressed people who are complaining about oppressive treatment at the hands of a class you identify with, then you’re showing that you, personally, are “like that.” Maybe you disapprove of and avoid doing many things oppressors do, but you’re still part of the problem when you demand explicit recognition for what you don’t do. Generalizations oppressed people make about their oppressors do zero harm to you, and your concern comes off as making oppression you don’t face all about yourself. Just don’t even bring up exceptions and trust that the oppressed already know not everyone in the class they’re referring to does the same amount of harm.
Additionally:
Stop substituting groups of oppressed people and stereotypes about oppressed people for groups of privileged people and generalizations about privileged people. False equivalence is dishonest. You might as well just scream, “I, Hibernia, am completely ignorant about how power and oppression work in the real world!”
Hibernia86says
@A. Noyd: Actually I did read the post. It compared criticizing an entire race or gender to a minefield. I’m not saying “we’re not all like that”. I’m saying “most of us aren’t like that.” I’m saying that the picture above takes a small minority and uses them to represent an entire race and gender. The solution to fighting against street harassment is to criticize street harassers, not criticize an entire gender and race (especially since it isn’t clear that it is any more common in that race than any other). It simply isn’t true to say that racist or sexist generalizations about the historically dominant race or gender don’t have any effect. For example, people are quicker to believe negative things about male strangers than they are about female strangers. So while there is more male privilege than female privilege, that doesn’t mean female privilege doesn’t exist. And it certainly doesn’t mean that we should have a double standard about how we treat people depending on whether they are from a historically dominant group or not. Negative overgeneralizations about a race or gender are ALWAYS wrong.
A. Noydsays
Hibernia86 (#12)
It compared criticizing an entire race or gender to a minefield.
No, it didn’t. It’s not about “criticizing an entire race or gender.” It’s really not. If that’s what you got out of it, your reading comprehension sucks. I’m done trying to talk to you until you can wrap your head around what’s actually said in the OP, in the link, and in my standard response. You’re inventing shit that just isn’t there, and I’m not interested in arguing with your strawmen or the vast ignorance behind them.
lurkersays
Hibernia86:
I didn’t get the impression that he was implying all or most white men do that. “That’s really the least…” type exaggerations, are speech patterns Jamie Kilstein uses often.
I don’t mean to tell you how you feel, but would ask you (kindly) to consider whether your posts are perhaps a defensive emotional reaction to a mistakenly percived attack.
And then maybe you can hear me saying, I didn’t hear this as an attack on “white men”, but a comment on whichever comics he is responding to, who happen to be in that group.
I understand if “white men” feel attacked as other groups and allies try to address issues of privilage, it is part of a person’s identity, and that is something people tend to defend strongly. But please, consider that you may be seeing slights where none are intended because you are looking to justify a perceived persecution. It’s just people pointing out that the “dominant group” doesn’t need to hit people who are already down. You remind me of the Christians who see criticism of fundamentalists as attacks on all Christians because they identify with them. (No offence meant). Every comment about some specific members of a group being asses does not neccesarily apply to the whole.
With respect, this isn’t about you. It is about whoever Jamie was commenting on. Unless of course you are a white, male comic who makes rape jokes and thinks they are edgy. In which case….”[T]hat’s really the least edgy thing you can do”.
Meanwhile…Jamie Kilstein is great, and I love that quote. Also, I didn’t recognise him without his glasses.
pattersonsays
@ Shatterface #6
Thanks for the warning on Vicious
thetalkingstovesays
Saying that white men harassing women is the least edgy thing that a white man could do is suggesting that it is the thing that white men do most
That’s not how I (a white man) took it at all.
To me it’s suggesting harassment is something that many white men do, and that when they do it there are unlikely to be any serious consequences for them (as opposed to men of colour who are more likely to be convicted of crimes, as we know).
Chaos Engineersays
Saying that white men harassing women is the least edgy thing that a white man could do is suggesting that it is the thing that white men do most, when most white men do not harass women.
“Edgy” means “transgressive”, or “in violation of social norms”. It doesn’t have anything to do with how many people do it or with how frequently it’s done.
So even if only one white man in the history of the world had ever harassed a woman, but if people made excuses for him instead of condemning him, then his behavior couldn’t be considered edgy. Because the excuse-making demonstrates that he’s not in violation of social norms.
Also note that “edgy” has positive connotations: There’s an implication that the social norm involved is one that ought to be violated. So even if the harasser were condemned, his behavior still wouldn’t be “edgy”. It would be better described as “vulgar” or “disgusting”.
Let’s so, what else…”Least edgy” isn’t being used literally here. It’s hyperbole, a literary device frequently seen in humor. It should be interpreted as “not edgy at all”.
Jamie doesn’t seem to understand that racism and sexism are still wrong even if he aims it at his own race and sex.
I don’t see any racism or sexism in the joke. Are you sure you’re not being over-sensitive?
sawellssays
“Saying that white men harassing women is the least edgy thing that a white man could do is suggesting that it is the thing that white men do most”
No it isn’t. Read better, please.
Wylannsays
Another white (straight, cis)man popping in to disagree with Hibernia. You really need to get that jerky knee of yours looked at by a medical professional.
Hell, I have ashamedly in retrospect, harassed women. I have since learned better. Unfortunately, since those women were, as is typically the case, anonymous, and of a lower power/privilege position, I can’t even go back and apologize to them.
I doubt there are a more than small handful of men, if they were to honestly think about their past, when hanging with other guys, that could say they’ve never harassed a woman in any way.
So really, Kilstein isn’t even exaggerating that much.
zibblesays
Really love how Kilstein put this.
It describes the “shock comedy” of awful frat boy garbage like Family Guy to a T.
mildlymagnificentsays
Honestly, Hibernia
I’m saying that the picture above takes a small minority and uses them to represent an entire race and gender.
Small minority? Are you sure you’re not confusing harassment with rape?
I don’t know whether it’s a minority or a majority of men who harass women, but the mere fact that I can’t say indicates that my experience is that it certainly isn’t a small minority.
Q: Why is a funny rape joke like a god?
A: Because it doesn’t exist.
Thank you Jamie Kilstein.
left0ver1under
I believe Wanda Sykes may disagree.
(But it’s not the punching down kind, so there’s that…)
Hey, Ophelia! There seems to be something gone wonky with your next post, which is linked at the top of this page as “Next Post” rather than by its title, “Another Bad Model”. Also, “Another Bad Model” won’t accept comments…
Just a heads-up.
Thanks Blanche. Damn this thing! That’s the second time. I checked it, and it posted properly, with title. Grrrrrr
There’s a sitcom in the UK called Vicious about a hate-filled old gay couple (Derek Jacobi and Ian McKellan) written by Gary Jenetti (Will and Grace) and Mark Ravenhill which features a lot of rape gags targeted at their ‘friend’ and aging ‘fag hag’ Violet (Frances de la Tour).
Sample joke:
Violet (on hearing there’s a young man in the toilet):I’m so frightened I’m going to be raped!
Freddie: For God’s sake! Nobody’s going to rape you!
Violet: What an awful thing to say!
The defence of these jokes is that they’re satirising the awfulness of the gay couple but from the example above they’re clearly putting the desire for rape in Violet’s mouth.
Saying that white men harassing women is the least edgy thing that a white man could do is suggesting that it is the thing that white men do most, when most white men do not harass women. Jamie doesn’t seem to understand that racism and sexism are still wrong even if he aims it at his own race and sex.
[citation needed]
Anyone who likes to say “not all like that” or its equivalent should read this.
@dexitroboper: Seriously? You really think that most white men harass women? Let me guess, you also believe that most black people are criminals. I think you need to stop making bigoted over generalizations about people.
@ A. Noyd. So you think that if some of a group does something bad then it is okay to hate the entire group. So if a man’s sister gets raped by a Mexican man, should he hate all Mexicans? That is the problem with the picture above. Rather than deal with a serious issue (when are rape jokes appropriate) it instead makes a ridiculous over generalization in the other direction.
Hibernia86 (#10)
Clearly you didn’t read the link. But here, have my standard response:
When you say “we’re not all like that” to oppressed people who are complaining about oppressive treatment at the hands of a class you identify with, then you’re showing that you, personally, are “like that.” Maybe you disapprove of and avoid doing many things oppressors do, but you’re still part of the problem when you demand explicit recognition for what you don’t do. Generalizations oppressed people make about their oppressors do zero harm to you, and your concern comes off as making oppression you don’t face all about yourself. Just don’t even bring up exceptions and trust that the oppressed already know not everyone in the class they’re referring to does the same amount of harm.
Additionally:
Stop substituting groups of oppressed people and stereotypes about oppressed people for groups of privileged people and generalizations about privileged people. False equivalence is dishonest. You might as well just scream, “I, Hibernia, am completely ignorant about how power and oppression work in the real world!”
@A. Noyd: Actually I did read the post. It compared criticizing an entire race or gender to a minefield. I’m not saying “we’re not all like that”. I’m saying “most of us aren’t like that.” I’m saying that the picture above takes a small minority and uses them to represent an entire race and gender. The solution to fighting against street harassment is to criticize street harassers, not criticize an entire gender and race (especially since it isn’t clear that it is any more common in that race than any other). It simply isn’t true to say that racist or sexist generalizations about the historically dominant race or gender don’t have any effect. For example, people are quicker to believe negative things about male strangers than they are about female strangers. So while there is more male privilege than female privilege, that doesn’t mean female privilege doesn’t exist. And it certainly doesn’t mean that we should have a double standard about how we treat people depending on whether they are from a historically dominant group or not. Negative overgeneralizations about a race or gender are ALWAYS wrong.
Hibernia86 (#12)
No, it didn’t. It’s not about “criticizing an entire race or gender.” It’s really not. If that’s what you got out of it, your reading comprehension sucks. I’m done trying to talk to you until you can wrap your head around what’s actually said in the OP, in the link, and in my standard response. You’re inventing shit that just isn’t there, and I’m not interested in arguing with your strawmen or the vast ignorance behind them.
Hibernia86:
I didn’t get the impression that he was implying all or most white men do that. “That’s really the least…” type exaggerations, are speech patterns Jamie Kilstein uses often.
I don’t mean to tell you how you feel, but would ask you (kindly) to consider whether your posts are perhaps a defensive emotional reaction to a mistakenly percived attack.
And then maybe you can hear me saying, I didn’t hear this as an attack on “white men”, but a comment on whichever comics he is responding to, who happen to be in that group.
I understand if “white men” feel attacked as other groups and allies try to address issues of privilage, it is part of a person’s identity, and that is something people tend to defend strongly. But please, consider that you may be seeing slights where none are intended because you are looking to justify a perceived persecution. It’s just people pointing out that the “dominant group” doesn’t need to hit people who are already down. You remind me of the Christians who see criticism of fundamentalists as attacks on all Christians because they identify with them. (No offence meant). Every comment about some specific members of a group being asses does not neccesarily apply to the whole.
With respect, this isn’t about you. It is about whoever Jamie was commenting on. Unless of course you are a white, male comic who makes rape jokes and thinks they are edgy. In which case….”[T]hat’s really the least edgy thing you can do”.
Meanwhile…Jamie Kilstein is great, and I love that quote. Also, I didn’t recognise him without his glasses.
@ Shatterface #6
Thanks for the warning on Vicious
That’s not how I (a white man) took it at all.
To me it’s suggesting harassment is something that many white men do, and that when they do it there are unlikely to be any serious consequences for them (as opposed to men of colour who are more likely to be convicted of crimes, as we know).
Saying that white men harassing women is the least edgy thing that a white man could do is suggesting that it is the thing that white men do most, when most white men do not harass women.
“Edgy” means “transgressive”, or “in violation of social norms”. It doesn’t have anything to do with how many people do it or with how frequently it’s done.
So even if only one white man in the history of the world had ever harassed a woman, but if people made excuses for him instead of condemning him, then his behavior couldn’t be considered edgy. Because the excuse-making demonstrates that he’s not in violation of social norms.
Also note that “edgy” has positive connotations: There’s an implication that the social norm involved is one that ought to be violated. So even if the harasser were condemned, his behavior still wouldn’t be “edgy”. It would be better described as “vulgar” or “disgusting”.
Let’s so, what else…”Least edgy” isn’t being used literally here. It’s hyperbole, a literary device frequently seen in humor. It should be interpreted as “not edgy at all”.
Jamie doesn’t seem to understand that racism and sexism are still wrong even if he aims it at his own race and sex.
I don’t see any racism or sexism in the joke. Are you sure you’re not being over-sensitive?
“Saying that white men harassing women is the least edgy thing that a white man could do is suggesting that it is the thing that white men do most”
No it isn’t. Read better, please.
Another white (straight, cis)man popping in to disagree with Hibernia. You really need to get that jerky knee of yours looked at by a medical professional.
Hell, I have ashamedly in retrospect, harassed women. I have since learned better. Unfortunately, since those women were, as is typically the case, anonymous, and of a lower power/privilege position, I can’t even go back and apologize to them.
I doubt there are a more than small handful of men, if they were to honestly think about their past, when hanging with other guys, that could say they’ve never harassed a woman in any way.
So really, Kilstein isn’t even exaggerating that much.
Really love how Kilstein put this.
It describes the “shock comedy” of awful frat boy garbage like Family Guy to a T.
Honestly, Hibernia
Small minority? Are you sure you’re not confusing harassment with rape?
I don’t know whether it’s a minority or a majority of men who harass women, but the mere fact that I can’t say indicates that my experience is that it certainly isn’t a small minority.