Via Brian Engler via Vyckie Garrison – some Quiverfull wisdom by one “Von” on how to be a Real Man.
Real men marry. Real men seek the responsibilities (and joys!) that God has called them to and seek, actively seek: a wife and children. A wife and children that will require work on a daily basis; work to feed and clothe them, work to share in their joys and sorrows, work communicating, fixing, kissing… real men take those responsibilities seriously.
Real men marry, and lead spiritually. They realize that, however little they know about God and Scripture, it is their responsibility to step up to the plate and lead their family. To learn and to lead. Every day, all the time.
However little they know about anything, and however much their wives know about everything, it is still their responsibility to be the boss. God said so. It’s theirs because penis, and it’s not wives’ because not penis.
Real men can really admit they have real problems; and know that that is what wise counsel is for. Their father, their father-in-law, the elders of their church, other wise men… real men aren’t (too) afraid to go to these men and admit that they have struggles, and listen to, and act on, their advice.
That’s a new one (to me). I haven’t seen that particular piece of contempt before. Women aren’t even good enough to talk to when men have problems. Not even that. Not even though the problems could be domestic or relational, and women are generally thought – even by Quiverfull types – to be good at that. No, it has to be father, or her father, or wise men. Wise men.
Real women marry, hopefully young. They know they are called to marriage in their youth, to a husband in his youth, and are not afraid of this.
Real women who understand that they are not called to ‘a career’ but a house. They are called to love their husbands, bear and love their children, and keep their house.
And none of this pesky modern shit about deciding that for themselves; none of that actually thinking about one’s life and how one wants to live it; no sir; real women are “called” to do one kind of thing and not all the others. End of story (in every way).
Real women realize the marriage is more important than the wedding. They don’t bankrupt their new husband or father, or delay their marriage for months while things are ‘planned’ to be just perfect. Real women marry and bear children; they don’t spend the rest of their life poring over their wedding pictures.
Real women obey their husbands over their fathers. While the honor that the young woman owes her parents is lifelong, and includes obedience to all of his lawful commands, she realizes that she now has a much more direct authority in her husband.
Real women are not afraid of submission. Well, maybe they are, but they do it anyway. They strive to give to their husbands the same kind of submission that the Church owes to Christ.
That’s Quiverfull! Maybe they are – maybe they do have qualms – but they do it anyway! They obey and submit. Booya, that’s what this is all about. Obey, god damn it!
Real women know that they are often called to listen when they would like to speak. That is more important to build their husband up than to put him down with their latest spiritual point.
Ha. Haha. Hahahaha. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Because speaking’s more of a guy thing, natch. Men? Men should never shut up and listen. That would be emasculating.
I don’t know about Engler but in my marriage I’ve found my wife to be an excellent source of counsel for my problems. My adult daughter is also someone whose advice and suggestions are well-worth listening to.
Eeeeeeek, not Engler! Brian Engler pointed it out to me, he didn’t write it!!
This is the second time in five minutes that I’ve had to admit to making a mistake on this blog. Sorry about that, Ophelia and Brian.
However my comment about my wife and daughter still stand.
Heh. No problem. I tweaked the post to remove the ambiguity – the author goes by “Von.” I’m tempted to say Real Men use their Real Names. 😀
But anyway, your point – imagine simply ruling out half of humanity as possible sources of advice and comfort and help. It boggles the mind!
Now I know where I’ve been going wrong all these years! I guess I’m beyond redemption.
The Quivers are plagiarising Marabel Morgan.
Really, there’s only one man. All other men have to be just like him. And there’s only one woman. So the salvation of humanity will depend — if ever they find their naturally doctrinally sound ideals — on cloning. Which is much too hard for their mesolithic mentality, so they have to resort to repeating the same old impossible formula. On and on and on. It’s the Lord’s work, of course, and well suited to simple minds.
Recipe for perfect people: Don’t be like that! No! not like that either!! Oh for God’s sake…
Always works.
Geez, I’m not a real woman. I’m a fake geek girl. Can anyone really blame me for stealing all the ice cream?
Sweet rich and creamy goodness…
This is my first visit to Ophelia’s blog,initially, I thought that the article was satire…
Apparently this Von has the words “rude” and “awakening” in his future.
I guess this explains the fundie divorce rate.
Ooh, heavenly consummation! “You’ll get the perfect fuck in heaven, ladiez, with Jesus. In the meantime, don’t expect too much from your husband. Just submit and do what he says, regardless.”
I must not be a real man, because the idea of a relationship that far into the Dom/Sub culture with a side of poly with an imaginary friend (I’m submitting to you, but my primary is actually a god)… it gives me the creeping heebie jeebies.
As I read these descriptions, the only thing that came to mind is that I do not want to be either a “real woman” or a “real man”.
Put me into to the “fake whateverthefuckyouwanttocallit” group.
No title or identity is worth living such a bleak and horrid life. In fact, if those were the only choices I had, I’d probably choose seppuku.
My mother always told me I wasn’t a real woman (seems I wanted to go to college, didn’t care if I got married, didn’t want lots of kids – strange stuff, that). Guess she was right, after all!
Who gets to tell me how to be a woman? I am a woman, and I’ll be a woman any way I damn please. And the day I start submitting to my husband is the day I become a murderer, because the shock would kill him. Not to mention he wouldn’t like it much. If he’d wanted a doormat, he wouldn’t have married me. He prefers a partner.
I can’t wait until the time that a Real Woman is the leader, and the man is in the kitchen. “God shows Men how to bake bread in the Old Testament”, it could be a wonderful way to just cherry pick bible verses that show Men need to get in the kitchen and stay there. I actually love cooking, I just hate the stereotypes.
Me too, I love being a geek girl. In fact, a Real Woman is a Woman that goes into online video games and castrates Men, making them question their manhood, and then tells them they got pushed into lockers in highschool and are fucking assholes for suggesting that “You’re a dude because no Women play Unreal Tournament”. Real Woman for me means stealing manhood away from Men all the while being pretty Femme (in my own way) to boot! Real Woman means making Men feel like they suck at being Men, constantly even. Until they throw their hands up in the air and castrate themselves.
“Real women realize the marriage is more important than the wedding. They don’t bankrupt their new husband or father, or delay their marriage for months while things are ‘planned’ to be just perfect. Real women marry and bear children; they don’t spend the rest of their life poring over their wedding pictures.”
REAL WOMEN AIN’T GOLD DIGGERS, DON’T EMPTY DADDEH’S WALLET. Jesus fucking christ I wish I could empty the wallets of some Republican Men, Absolutely, and then go and get all the transsexual surgeries I medically need that the rich assholes are keeping from me. Fucking assholes.
Now I know where Ron Lindsay got his ideas about why women shouldn’t ask men to be quiet while women speak. Saying “check your privilege” or “shut up and listen” is obviously against God’s Law. And True Humanist Values.
Strange, that coincidence.
It’s interesting how clear a statement of authoritarian social relations this is. Men, as husbands and in general, are authorities over women, but even this authority involves constant docile submission to other men, including at work.
This authoritarian view is I think preserved by many in the atheist-skeptic-secular community (such as it is). Relations between women and men in the movement (such as it is) are viewed not in normal democratic terms but as a struggle for authoritarian position. That’s why demands that would otherwise seem obviously, trivially reasonable – like harassment policies or efforts to marginalize online harassment, slurs, and intimidation – are resisted: they’re seen through this strange authoritarian filter. As long as changes are framed as gifts generously granted to women, fine. But openly agreeing with women and changing your behavior or policy isn’t, seen through this filter, normal democratic procedure – it’s becoming a “mangina” or subordinate tool of women. It’s losing authoritarian ground, and that has to be avoided. And this is connected to a falling in line behind perceived male authorities like Dawkins or Shermer. It’s all thoroughly corrosive to reasoned democratic debate.
Ha! I was writing my post when Mattir posted hers.
SC – yours is better. I don’t always agree with you, but on this your analysis is spot on, and I’m merely snarky. Thanks.
Pretty much this. I watched a talk Dawkins gave recently in March, and he tried to completely mischaracterize the feminist position in this talk by magically inventing a feminist who talked about some infantile form of sexist science Dawkins magically invented on the spot. I wish I could find the clip, it was atrocious.
Dawkins is a privileged asshole of the 1st order and while I barely took him seriously before, and mostly hated his guts, I won’t get into my current opinion of him…suffice to say it’s far worse.
As far as Shermer, he’s another asshole hiding behind weasel words and basking in patriarchal “libertarian” privilege; the privilege to insist nobody do anything to grow eeebul gubbmint because the same private interests that are totally fucking our lives over will magically save us in the end!! Just you wait and see!!
God I fucking hate this movement, what a fucking joke. Until privileged assholes get dethroned from power, the same smug white dudes will keep ruining it for everyone else, and pretend all the while with their bullshit rhetoric like they actually “care” about people like me. Fuck these assholes.
http://i.imgur.com/gqFSHPm.jpg
OH MY GOD, REAL MANHOOD!!! *swoons*
I WANT TO WORK OUT ALL MY DADDY ISSUES WITH HIM!!!
psyche.
sleepingwytch, you’re making my head hurt.
Is that good or bad? I hope good thing, mhmm =~)
Bad.
D’awww.
passes an icepack and some warm cinnamon tea.
I’m sorry I don’t conform to your cissexist transmysog views (not). Why else could you have a headache right?
Am I supposed to get in the kitchen now? Jesus
Don’t have any medically necessary procedures that might render you infertile, ladies, because you will no longer be a Real Woman™! Also, too, along those lines: don’t grow older.
Serious stereotypes are serious business for cissexist transmysogs. Why, we can’t have transwomen making fun of sexist stereotypes, that proves they’re not real women!
I hope when you said bad you were joking, actually I don’t give a shit.
As a transsexual woman, I’m not considered a Real Woman even by 95% of trans allies, so I don’t even try to conform to the cissexist mysog stereotypes, because they’re just another form of sexism that can never be obtained after endlessly chasing after the sexist ideal. According to that definition of real women here you are citing in a manner I very much agree with, I’m not now nor ever will be a Real Woman, because I don’t have uterus and ovaries.
Real Woman is like Real Man in this culture: a fucking joke.
Hey sleepingwytch could you take it easy with the free association and the taking over of the thread? Don’t just talk for the sake of talking, ok?
Ok, I think I understand.
I’m in a conventional long-term monogamous relationship with a woman — a marriage –that fits perfectly with the ideal stereotype of the religious conservative. However, nothing in our relationship or justification for marrying in any way resembles Von’s bizarre babbling.
Clearly my husband and I are not real. We don’t want children, I want a career and we’re not really into the whole submission thing. What’s more we were engaged for a over a year because I was a student and we wanted to make sure that the planning didn’t interfere with my studies so we married at the end of the summer.
Which begs the question, what actually are we?
Ooh, ooh! Can we eat quiche yet – or is that still verboten for “real men”?
.
Don’t tell me, I know this one … it’s on the tip of my tongue … that’s it! People! You’re people! Whom Von presumably wouldn’t recognise, being as how he lives in a world of Nobodaddy and Stepford clones.
Oh well, I already knew I’m not a Real Woman, but one of “those emancipated women” (said with not exactly disgust but decidedly not as it were a good thing).