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Bullying is healthy

So people are trying to combat the bullying of LGBQ teenagers in school, and religious conservative lunatics are trying to combat the efforts to combat the bullying. Yes that’s right. Grown-ups in grown-up organizations full of grown-ups are trying to prevent people from stopping bullying in schools.

Last  year, many conservative political organizations, including Focus on the Family,  the Family Research Council, the American Family Association, Liberty Counsel  and Concerned Women for America vocally opposed attempts by school districts  and public officials to combat bullying based on actual or perceived sexual  orientation and gender identity—categories typically considered along with  other attributes such as race, sex, age, disability and national origin.  Moreover, these groups smeared and demonized advocacy groups that collaborate  with teachers and administrators in developing best practices to combat bullying,  warning that anti-bullying groups would encourage everything from  “homosexualizing” youth to anti-Christian persecution to pedophilia.

Religious Right organizations demanded that schools and localities adopt policies that  would effectively leave LGBT and LGBT-perceived students unprotected and tie  the hands of schools that try to deal with the problem.

Liberty  Counsel Director of Cultural Affairs Matt Barber said there is “no evidence” that  LGBT people face either discrimination or violence, and Robert Newman of the  California Christian Coalition said that  bullying is “part of the maturational process,” adding, “I hardly think that  bullying is a real issue in schools.” Fox News host Steve Doocy even hosted a  segment called “Bullying: Crisis or Panic?” in which he asked if  bullying is an “exaggerated epidemic.”

WallBuilders  president and Republican operative David Barton falsely claimed that “the  leading pediatric association in America” opposed anti-bullying policies that  cover sexual orientation. Barton argued, “If  you’ll just let this develop naturally, they’ll end up being heterosexual  unless you force them to be homosexual…. If you let it run its course it’s  gonna turn out normal and natural, unless you guys intervene and make the  unnatural stuff natural.”

As it  turned out, the group Barton cited was a tiny, fringe anti-gay organization.  The country’s actual leading pediatric group, the American Academy of  Pediatricians, contacted Barton’s  group and requested a retraction, which Barton promptly refused.

These are adults. These are adults dismissing or making light of bullying in schools. These are adults trying to stop other adults preventing bullying. These are adults who want to keep bullying in schools.

One guy even came right out and said so, without even the thinnest veil of disguise.

When  whitewashing doesn’t work, some anti-gay activists just try to condone  bullying. That’s what Rich Swier of Tea Party Nation attempted to do in a column sent  out to members nationwide, dubbing the bullying of LGBT youth a “sham” and  adding that if it does take place, it is “healthy” since homosexuality, like  drug abuse, “cannot be condoned” and must be stopped:

This is not bullying. It is peer pressure and is healthy. There are many bad behaviors such as smoking, under age drinking [sic] and drug abuse that are behaviors that cannot be condoned. Homosexuality falls  into this category. Homosexuality is simply bad behavior that youth see as such and rightly pressure their peers to stop it.

#compassionisattheheartofeverygreatreligion

Comments

  1. says

    So if bullying is part of the natural maturational process, why is it we hear so much whining about “persecution” any time a Christian doesn’t get their way? Shouldn’t they welcome the natural efforts to help them mature?

  2. Ken Pidcock says

    One can’t help but recall. It’s like these guys imagine that it’s only bullying and the threat of bullying that has spared them from being condemned to hell.

    “Let it run its course. If you let it run its course it’s gonna turn out normal and natural unless you guys intervene and make the unnatural stuff natural, it’s gonna run its course.”

    M’kay.

  3. godlesspanther says

    Uh, I thought that christians were the ones who are always getting picked on, bullied, harassed, marginalized, scape-goated, and generally persecuted.

    So why would they be opposed to anti-bullying? Why do they have a problem with hate crime legislation? This type of legislation is designed to protect the marginalized groups from further harassment. So — why isn’t the most persecuted group of people in the country enthusiastic about this?

    And I thought that we were the ones who were just like Hitler. Aren’t the contemporary atheists just like the Nazis? I thought that all the leftist political ideology was in exact accordance with everything the Nazis of 30′s Germany was in favor of. Like evolution, reproductive freedom, and gay rights. These ideas, I thought were started by the Nazis.

    So — Hitler, I suppose, would have been really really enthusiastic about anti-bullying efforts. And Hitler would have loved hate crime legislation — I’m sure he was all gung-ho about affirmative action too.

    Martin Luther King would have hated all these ideas, of course.

    The fundies really do think that. I’m not joking — they really really believe that.

  4. steve oberski says

    @godlesspanther And Hitler would have loved hate crime legislation

    The Weimar Republic had extensive hate crime laws and used them to suppress Hitler and the Nazi Party in the 1930s.

    From the The Nizkor Project, 1991-2011 – This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred.

    (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.py?documents/German/Weimar_Criminal_Code)

    Archive/File: documents/German/Weimar_Criminal_Code
    Last-Modified: 1998/09/04

    1. Incitement to Class Struggle (Paragraph 130, Criminal Code)

    Whoever publicly incites different classes of the population to violent
    actions against one another in a way that jeopardises the public peace
    will be punished with a fine of 600 marks or with a prison term of up to
    two years.

    In a famous exchange the day Hitler became chancellor of Germany, Otto Wells of the Social Democratic Party stood up and quoted the poet Friedrich Schiller as part of his plea for the continuance of civil liberties.

    Hitler dismissed Otto publicly, “Late you come, but you still come. You should have recognized the value of criticism during the years we were in opposition when our press was forbidden, our meetings were forbidden, and we were forbidden to speak for years on end.”

  5. wytchy says

    This pisses me off to no end. The people who are proponents of bullying LGBT youth are seriously the lowest form of scum there is.

    I know firsthand how it feels to be bullied for being queer, and not only that, but to have it condoned and sometimes even done by my teachers. The feelings of isolation and humiliation it brings are beyond what these fuckers understand. Anyone who thinks those feelings are a natural and important part of maturing into a good heterosexual, let alone a good person, are absolutely divorced from any kind of human compassion. And isn’t that just the biggest reason to detest religion? I know it’s mine.

  6. says

    i was bullied at home…if anything it reinforced my sense of homosexuality…..i didn’t like what i was on the receiving end of…it was miserable at the time….i don’t think any kid should ever go through it,yet i’m happy what it left me with…i have a very strong radar now….my nose smells out the wrong people very quickly….i think the whole miserable experience promoted or unlocked creativity in me too,and i wonder if my childhood had been without cut and thrust that i might just ended up with a boring flatlining life in my adulthood…. no one protected me from the bullying…i learned to duck and dive…..and i am glad to have that faculty now….those pigs don’t get anywhere near my life now.

  7. platyhelminthe says

    The worst thing is, these scum KNOW homophobic bullying causes suicide. Not only do they not care, they are happy that this be the case. How did these people become so openly evil and proud of it? How did America get so fucked up?

  8. camelspotter says

    That’s really shocking, disgusting stuff.

    I guess in the US you are experiencing a stronger backlash against the progress that’s being made than we are here. In the UK we have Anglican church leaders trying to condemn gay marriage but it would be political suicide to say anything opposing anti-bullying.

  9. Amy Clare says

    #1 Margaret, you have them bang to rights there! And it’s often a bully’s tactic to turn it around and complain loudly that *they* feel bullied. Often to greater effect, as they have the more power. Which they’re probably fully aware of, and is why they do it.

    There are a lot of people out there who would like to say bullying is character building. It isn’t. Unless the character you want to build is one which battles mental health issues and spends a fortune on therapy. Often those people braying about it being ‘part of growing up’ &c are those same ones who harbour homophobic views themselves and teach their kids (implicitly or explicitly) that anyone different is bad.

    Homophobic bullying in schools exists because of homophobic adults, who are probably quite happy that their little darlings have more license to express these views than they do.

    In my more charitable moments I see them as deeply insecure individuals who are terrified of difference. Probably many of them are in the closet themselves. But I’m not feeling particularly charitable after reading this…

  10. JoeBuddha says

    Isn’t this how the proselytized when they had all the power? This is just the fundies going back to their roots, IMHO.

  11. Amy Clare says

    #11 Camelspotter:

    Funnily enough, I’ve just been reading about how the Tories want to go back to ‘traditional values’ in schools … no pro-bullying statements yet from MPs but give it time.

  12. says

    Ken Pidcock, my go-to illustration of that phenomenon has always been The Onion. (NSFW)

    Steve Oberski, that’s possibly the most historically ignorant Godwin I’ve ever seen, and that’s saying a lot. IANAL but I’m preeeeetty sure that the law you cite was quite unrelated to the modern concept of a “hate crime.” And incitement to violence doesn’t need a hate-crime context to be illegal.

    Platyhelminthe, America has always been this fucked up, but once upon a time these subjects weren’t discussed openly at all. The late ’60s through the end of the century seem to have been the exception rather than the rule.

    Amy Clare:

    There are a lot of people out there who would like to say bullying is character building. It isn’t. Unless the character you want to build is one which battles mental health issues and spends a fortune on therapy.

    Exactly right. Overcoming challenges can build character, sure, but suffering deliberate cruelty, especially at a formative age, seriously throws your ability to trust and otherwise relate to other people out of whack. Those who dismiss the problem tend to authoritarianism and various forms of bigotry.

    Much sympathy to the people here who’ve been bullied for being GLBT.

  13. Essence says

    It is not the strong that us Christians should be there for it is the weak, and the weak are bullies for behind their anger and confusion is much more than meets the eye.
    A bully is someone who is uncomfortable in themselves, they lash out to hide the true anger inside.
    A bully is someone who themselves were verbally, physically, emotionally or sexually abused in their life, they see it’s ok and normal to hate. If they can make you feel like them; nothing, then sadly they have won.
    I as a believer in God am not allowed to judge, point the finger or look to blame but God teaches us slowly to look into everyone’s heart and see the good.
    I’m still human, I still make mistakes and judge or get angry, sure I get bullied or laughed at for what I believe but all I do is send love back.
    God is full of love, it is when we keep forgetting about him that our mistakes turn into too much pain.
    At the end of all our lives it is only ourselves that we must answer for, even here right now every decision and every thought or hurt I have caused or mistake it is my decision that I have to live with.
    The reality to is the only thing we have to fear is fear itself and all the evil begins in fear.
    Fear of control, fear of loss, fear of pain, God takes that fear away because then we know nothing can hurt us spiritually when we have him and even though I can’t see my spirit, it is more powerful than anything. We forget how good will always prevail over evil. Sounds crazy but who can stand in the middle of evil and prove that to be true?
    Sure the bible asks us not to live life a certain way but only because of the repocutions of it, stealing, lying, cheating, what good can come out of all those things?
    I’m sorry to all who were judged by a Christian, for that Christian lost their true calling, we are not superior we are just trying to make our own life right, we just want you too feel what we feel but hey I too once thought Christians were crazy. God is real, you just haven’t learnt to talk to him right.
    You know at the end of everyday where are your own thoughts leading too, really what do you ponder, who is answering your thoughts? Think about what your thinking, is it good or is it evil?
    If you honestly read about the life of Jesus Christ you could not help but admire a man that stood for everything that was good, all he did was show us that you could live with a pure heart, you could give up everything for love and that life is way too short to waste it on hate or anger or bad things.
    We all have the power to do what is great for each other, why is that so hard.
    An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
    Peace out to all who read this, may you feel the spirit inside you stir and make you want to fly again.

  14. says

    Oh, please. How on earth do you know “God is full of love”?

    I have read the accounts of Jesus’s life, and they describe him as much more mixed and patchy than someone who stands for “everything good” or “gave up everything for love.” There’s anger and hatred in there too.

    In any case the bible is just a book, and one written at a time when humans hadn’t yet accumulated much knowledge of how the world works. It’s not a reliable authority on anything.

  15. says

    It’s a considerable pity that the Weimar Republic didn’t succeed in suppressing the Nazis, isn’t it.

    I mean, what’s the claim here? That we wish they’d gotten started sooner?

  16. mnb0 says

    “1) I’m sorry to all who were judged by a Christian,
    2) for that Christian lost their true calling,
    3) we just want you too feel what we feel
    4) but hey I too once thought Christians were crazy.
    5) God is real,
    6) you just haven’t learnt to talk to him right.”

    1) No thát helps.
    2) Ah, the no true Christian fallacy. You’re a true christian of course. All christians think they are true christians, you know. Why don’t you try to convince them?
    3) If you’re serious with 1) then stop wanting this. I haven’t asked you for it.
    4) I still think you’re crazy.
    5) Yes? What instrument do I need to measure his size and weight? See my answer to 4.
    6) No. I’m happy not having learnt how to hallucinate. Again see my answer to 4.

  17. A. Noyd says

    Essence (#16)

    God is full of love, it is when we keep forgetting about him that our mistakes turn into too much pain.

    Your god drowned an entire planet. He also instructed his chosen people to wipe out entire cities or to kill off the men and rape the women. He threatens to torture the insufficiently pious for eternity. He also unambiguously condemns homosexuality, making it a crime worthy of death. It’s not us atheists forgetting about god, it’s you Christians who want to rewrite him into someone he never was.

    We forget how good will always prevail over evil. Sounds crazy but who can stand in the middle of evil and prove that to be true?

    A single dead teenager who killed hirself over being bullied is the triumph evil over good. Don’t tell us to look for some grander tally when the corpses are piling up.

    God is real, you just haven’t learnt to talk to him right.

    What was that you said about not judging?

    If you honestly read about the life of Jesus Christ…

    Oh, look, more judging. And, sweetie pie, it’s because we have honestly read about the Jeezster that we know he’s imaginary. If I’m going to draw inspiration from a fictional character, I’ll pick one who isn’t telling me to worship that tyrant of a god or who makes me out to be a lesser being because I have a vagina.

    We all have the power to do what is great for each other, why is that so hard.

    Because people like you are blinded by the stupidity of religion.

    Peace out to all who read this, may you feel the spirit inside you stir and make you want to fly again.

    What a sick, judgmental thing to say.

  18. ohioobserver says

    As a public high-school teacher I find it hard to contain my rage (outrage is too weak a term) at the utter ignorance and despicable vileness of these people. Bullying is a common occurrence, even at the high-school level, often condoned by adults in charge and rarely sanctioned unless it involves serious physical injury or a lawsuit. It is directed at anyone different: the weak, the smart, the not-so-smart, the socially inept, the gay, the sexually circumspect,the sexually promiscuous, the fat, the religiously unusual, the politically outspoken, anyone who doesn’t conform to the fashion of the day. It’s about raw, naked power, domination, hierarchy. It’s about people who are utterly unqualified to have it taking authority by force and intimidation. It’s about maintaining a pecking order, a concept only suited to chickens, not people in a democracy. It violates everything an education is supposed to foster, and everything any decent person stands for. People who support it, who refuse to do anything about it, are moral criminals.

  19. christophepetroni says

    If you honestly read about the life of Jesus Christ you could not help but admire a man that
    1) stood for everything that was good,
    2) all he did was show us that you could live with a pure heart,
    3) you could give up everything for love and
    4) that life is way too short to waste it on hate or anger or bad things.

    I would be much obliged if you could point to a passage in the Bible or anywhere else that supports any of these claims about the supposed life of Jesus. I don’t recognize any of them from what I know of the gospels, but really not an expert.

    And wasn’t it Jesus who introduced the concept of eternal torture? Is that love?

  20. Kevin Alexander says

    @margaretwhitestone

    That’s different, because….

    That’s different.

    These people need special treatment because they have special needs.

  21. karmakin says

    I’m going to jump on the bandwagon as well, but this isn’t about theism. It’s about why Essence’s concept of bullying is wrong. It misses why bullying is a growing problem, who bullies are, and why they do it.

    Bullies are not..or at least they’re usually not “A bully is someone who is uncomfortable in themselves, they lash out to hide the true anger inside.
    A bully is someone who themselves were verbally, physically, emotionally or sexually abused in their life, they see it’s ok and normal to hate. If they can make you feel like them; nothing, then sadly they have won.”

    While those bullies do exist, they’re relatively easy to take care of. You can avoid them, generally speaking they can be directed towards counseling or in extreme cases they can be removed from the environment. This bullying is the same type that’s always been going on.

    The bullying we’re seeing now, or at least is becoming more talked about…it always existed, it’s just that it was always under the radar..is about entire communities “declaring war” on people who they think are different, and as such deserved to be punished for the “sin” of being different.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    In these cases, bullies, to the external observer, would appear to be normal, happy, successful kids and adults. And to be honest they generally are. They fit in to the dominant group dynamics and thrive within that. THIS is the problem that we’re trying to fix. And there are things that help! Automatic reports of bullying sent from local administrators to more detached, centralized eyes to make sure there’s no “patterns” being missed. Legislation to not only allow, but encourage subgroups to create their own social structures within schools (for example LGBT groups or non-belief groups like the SSA). These are things that can be done, fairly easily, and yet are fought tooth and nail by “Christians” who oppose these.

    They are objectively pro-bullying.

    And now I’ll get all atheist on this. Because if you truly want to help and not be one of “those” people, you need to understand what the problem actually is. Unless you’re just here to claim privilege, and if that’s the case then well…PFFFFFFFT

    I strongly believe that a big factor in the rise of social bullying is the rise of the entitlement hackles of the religious right, as well as increasing belief an interventionist, judgmental deity. I believe that the increased focus on the importance of social ordering rubs off on kids, and it results in bullying in the schools. Trying to fight the “culture wars” has real consequences for real people. Words mean things, especially for impressionable youth.

    It’s funny, groups like the FTC go on and on about things like violence on TV when it’s really their allies (and themselves) that are doing the most to actually encourage bad and violent (both physical and emotional) behavior among young people.

    No, it’s not funny. So yes, I have a zero tolerance factor for anybody who thinks that bullying is OK, or minimizes it by completely ignoring how the “culture war” stance results in bullying. Kids don’t “grow” because they are bullied. The end result, as I can personally tell you, is that you end up not learning valuable social skills because of the lack of meaningful real social contact. This is a real problem that lasts with people forever.

  22. karmakin says

    Oh. And the quotes around Christians up there isn’t meant to be No True Scotsman quotes. They’re emphasis quotes. Quite frankly, the bullies are doing “God”‘s work. It’s quite frankly ignorant to think otherwise.

  23. MosesZD says

    The second we start bullying Christians, they’ll sing a different tune…. Oh wait, they do, even if it’s just to ensure their taxpayer-supported, religious-oriented school clubs are in compliance with non-discrimination policies. After all, they just went all the way to the Supreme Court to keep a LGBT out of their precious little Christian Legal Society club.

  24. says

    #16

    A bully is someone who is uncomfortable in themselves, they lash out to hide the true anger inside.
    A bully is someone who themselves were verbally, physically, emotionally or sexually abused in their life, they see it’s ok and normal to hate. If they can make you feel like them; nothing, then sadly they have won.

    Complete bullshit. Those things are not what defines a bully.

  25. says

    #16/Essence again:

    God is real, you just haven’t learnt to talk to him right.

    Invisible dragons are real, you just haven’t learned to see them right.

    Can’t you see how that is utter horseshit?

  26. theobromine says

    Fundagelicals and Catholics claim that they are subject to bullying by the government by being forced to subject their children to sex education in public schools, and by having publicly-funded Catholic schools mandated to allow gay-straight alliance clubs. They claim that it is bullying for the government to challenge their “strongly held beliefs” about homosexuality as deviant/disordered/sinful behaviour. I know that it is commonly thought that bullies are often those who have been bullied themselves, but in my experience there is another category of bullies who are simply unselfconsciously exercising their privilege, and often no one even notices until that privilege is threatened.

  27. theobromine says

    quoth @Essence: God is real, you just haven’t learnt to talk to him right.

    I know that I am not alone among those here who at one time firmly believed that we had a relationship with Jesus and/or God and/or the Holy Spirit. Either I lost my ability to “talk to him right”, or I came to my senses and stopped deluding myself. All evidence points to the latter.

  28. karmakin says

    Yup. Used to be religious myself. I don’t think people are lying to me when they tell me that they “feel” something. I used to feel the same thing. Now, in retrospect I know that feeling..and I still get it a lot..is a combination between catharsis and frission.

  29. Essence says

    I’m sorry to all who felt that I was judging, all I meant was I wanted you to feel something good, an energy that we feel. Surely you can not deny that bullying has an energy that is not good.
    We all have felt that one way or another, some are better controlling that negative energy and passing it on around them. I know who we hang around we become and those thoughts and feelings that we have somehow make it out to be fine and who cares who we hurt in the process, surely that’s not right.
    I guess if your life is going great, and your happy and content in who you are and why then your right, you don’t need anything to believe in but yourself.
    If you read about Jesus he didn’t bully anyone, he just tried to send a message on pure love, not lust or like or hate, he come because they needed a leader.
    And if you read about him yes he still got frustrated and still got upset but because the truth was getting warped but he still did not judge or hate anyone.
    Sure God may have destroyed and flooded the earth but did you read why? Because humans were doing detestable things ( we still are ) sleeping around, getting drunk, orgies, all the things that lead to bad consequences, it got so out of hand he had no choice, he created us to enjoy and live a great life and we still can when are heart is open to good things.
    He destroyed when things turned evil and there was only evil in their hearts.
    God is really so simple and easy to understand, he didn’t make the bible hard to read, it is full of wisdom and consequences for our own actions. We still have free will even with God in our lives, and we still have an option to do right or wrong but he says if we do good things then good things will come back, if we do bad things then bad will come back.
    Imagine your parents raising you to be good with love then imagine a parent that doesn’t care about you and you do bad things, it’s the same with God. If you trust and beleive in him and do what is right then how can bad come through you?
    I’m not sad that you may not understand God but it makes me sad when people think its ok to not feel any remorse for their actions even if it hurts others and still be on their way.
    The reality is there is no one on earth we need to impress but ourselves because who really cares completely about you? Who honestly cares if you live or die? Who really cares if your hurt or upset? Sure people may for a while but then they move onto themselves again.
    We all have our own thoughts and dreams and ideas but who really listens? I would say that most don’t really care, they have their own agenda.
    And surely all we are trying to fulfill is happiness inside of ourselves because otherwise what is the point?
    With God there is a peace and a contentment no matter what is going on around us good or bad because we can’t control the outside world.
    There may be a privilege for free speech and actions but that doesn’t mean it’s ok to be rude and judgemental.
    Who ever we judge the same judgement will be made against us……. If someone is a bully then surely they are claiming to be some type of God making others feel inferior and they are better.
    It is the meek that will inherit good things.
    I know bullies, they are never satisfied and always looking to blame others or put others down, not once did Jesus say that was ok he said look at yourselves and see how you are before you look at others.
    Let the blood of Jesus prevail against you.
    Peace out

  30. 'Tis Himself says

    Sure God may have destroyed and flooded the earth but did you read why?

    I certainly did. What I understood was that Ol’ Yahweh was a sadistic, narcissistic bully with the emotional maturity of a spoiled six year old. He killed people just because he could. And it doesn’t say much about you that you feel the need to worship an asshole of a god.

  31. Suido says

    The reality is there is no one on earth we need to impress but ourselves because who really cares completely about you? Who honestly cares if you live or die? Who really cares if your hurt or upset? Sure people may for a while but then they move onto themselves again.

    I’m sorry you’ve been hurt and it has lead to you feeling this way. Religion is a refuge from reality, not a cure for it. No matter how hard you believe, it won’t make heaven real. Life can suck, but it can also be brilliant: this is your one chance, take it and make it wonderful.

  32. says

    I was bullied at school. I was bullied from the point where I started primary school, right the way through to the point where I finished high school. Twelve years of effectively going to my place of employment every day, and wondering “am I going to be able to get through today without crying?” and knowing that for most days, the answer would be “no”. Twelve years of being the designated target. It certainly shaped me and shaped my thinking – I wouldn’t be the person I am today without that history of bullying.

    The person I am today is chronically mentally ill with near-disabling depression, and lives regularly with thoughts of suicide. The person I am today has been through multiple breakdowns, and lives in a state of paranoia regarding the recurrence of bullying tactics being used against me. The person I am today hasn’t held a permanent job in six years. Just the future you all want for your kids, yeah?

  33. athyco says

    Sure God may have destroyed and flooded the earth but did you read why?

    Did you? All the way through? Genesis 6:5 says “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” But why also destroy also the “beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air”? And then two chapters later, Genesis 8:21 says “And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”

    What the hell?? The exact same reason that he killed ‘em is the reason he’s not going to do it again? And he knew that the single family he’d bothered to save wasn’t going to turn out differently from all those he’d drowned? I’m sorry if your definition of an omniscient–let alone merciful–being allows for that much of a facepalm.

  34. Essence says

    Yes god did destroy evil things but why wouldn’t he?
    He didn’t go through killing innocent people, those that believed in him were set free.
    Even today God isn’t killing anyone we are, we are hurting each other because of what is in our hearts, God gives us free will.
    We can’t blame God for the past and why blame him today, if we blame God for evil and terrible thingd for bad things in the world then we are saying God should have made this life as perfect as heaven is discribed.
    Then we are saying the earth should be perfect with no hate anger death evil and everything should be perfect, is that what your expecting from God?
    Then we don’t have free choice and we learn nothing.
    Im not a sad human being because no one really cares about me, that is more than fine, I would rather do it on my own and let others care for themselves but we have to stop blaming God for what we are doing wrong, in some way you do beleive in God cause your blaming him for the bad things, so you must assume he is there, you just don’t think he is any good.
    We are always judging others when we don’t know the full story, look at the news or gossip mag’s they are full of half truths yet we beleive it to be true and judge.
    Jesus is saying you can be free of all your hurtful feelings and all that have hurt you and yes even I have been judged and bullied and put down but I didn’t want to live in fear forever I wanted to be set free and like I mentioned good has more power over evil, we just think it doesn’t. I’m saying that those who physically and verbally abused me I forgive them, I send them love, I ask God to bless them for they know not what they do and I leave it to him. I didn’t blame God I leant on him to take it all away and with that power I feel great.
    Jesus got spat on, wiped, tortured, abused verbally, laughed at, dragged a cross on his back to his death sentence, nailed to a cross through his hands and feet, the most detestable death for what, why would we as humans be so ruthless, because he came to show love? He came to answer the prayers of a great leader, why would we do that? Then just before he died he cried out Father forgive them for they know not what they do……..if he was so evil then why did he still not hurt 1 person that hurt him…….he forgave everyone of them, not sure why not to love him.

  35. athyco says

    Yes god did destroy evil things but why wouldn’t he?

    …we have to stop blaming God for what we are doing wrong, in some way you do beleive in God cause your blaming him for the bad things, so you must assume he is there, you just don’t think he is any good.

    I simply must have made my point very badly for it to have become a missile zooming that far over your head. The Christian says that his deity is omniscient–which means that being knows everything, right? Before, during, and after destroying “evil things,” there could be no ignorance of the outcome. Yet it resulted in nothing except, “Welp, I destroyed them because they were evil, but I won’t destroy them again because…they’re evil.” So why wouldn’t he, you ask? Because he had to know it wouldn’t freakin’ WORK, of course! Criminy, he’d already failed to keep his perfect creation from becoming imperfect. You think he would have wanted to have a success with his big destruction/restart effort.

    And who’s blaming God? The comments before yours blamed people. You brought the hoary old storybook into this, not us. No one commenting afterwards was blaming some supernatural creature for the idiocy of the stories (ahem…no Adam and Eve in the garden with a talking snake, no flood, no Exodus, etc.). We’re blaming you for telling us we weren’t “doing it right” when we are not the ones trying to justify bullying.

  36. Essence says

    Your right, Godbless to you and your family, may peace rain on you everyday of your life. Amen

  37. Woo_Monster says

    Jesus got spat on, wiped, tortured, abused verbally, laughed at, dragged a cross on his back to his death sentence, nailed to a cross through his hands and feet, the most detestable death for what…

    Oooh, I know why! The cosmic Jewish zombie that you call Jesus was sent by his dad, who was also himself, to be killed so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

  38. Suido says

    Jesus got spat on, wiped, tortured, abused verbally, laughed at…

    Amazingly, you’re now back on topic. You’re describing many things which bullies do, which your christian leaders are encouraging if it’s directed at LGBT teenagers.

    Instead of preaching to us about love, why don’t you instead go preach to your fellow christians? We here seem to at least grok the fact that bullying is not an act of love, unlike your fellow christians.

  39. Jet says

    Agh! Almost everything on your front page here is in the category of ‘I don’t wanna live on this planet anymore’..
    Anyway, regarding bullying, I don’t think these morons realize which way peer pressure works, with smoking etc.. it’s pressure to DO them, not to avoid them.. at least it was for the last 40 years or so.

  40. says

    quoth Essence

    He didn’t go through killing innocent people, those that believed in him were set free.

    If by “set free” you mean that they were rewarded in the afterlife, please provide evidence of a person’s consciousness being able to continue after the death of their brain. (If you mean something else, please define your terms.)

  41. Escuerd says

    He didn’t go through killing innocent people, those that believed in him were set free.

    So failing to believe in your god implies guilt? Non-judgmental indeed. Your passive aggression is fragrant.

    we are hurting each other because of what is in our hearts, God gives us free will.

    then we are saying God should have made this life as perfect as heaven is discribed.

    Three questions (well, some are combos):
    1. Do you think there is free will in Heaven?
    2. If God created Heaven as a perfect place, why not simply do the same with Earth? A being that can do anything would not have to make its creations suffer in order to learn, right? Or are there some limitations on God’s power?
    3. Do you think that deaths from, say, natural disasters are somehow a direct consequence of free will? If so, how?

    but we have to stop blaming God for what we are doing wrong, in some way you do beleive in God cause your blaming him for the bad things, so you must assume he is there, you just don’t think he is any good.

    It seems obvious to me that this was about internal inconsistencies (plot holes, if you will) in your mythology. I doubt if many people here actually think there’s a god out there causing pain or misery (or anything for that matter).

    But if you start with the assumption that there is such a god that knows everything that will happen and sets the game up from the beginning, you have to conclude that that god would be responsible for any evil that resulted. This is not consistent with a god that’s good.

    Because humans were doing detestable things ( we still are ) sleeping around, getting drunk, orgies

    Of course. Clearly these are all things that merit being put to death.

    This is exactly the way of thinking that motivates a lot of this bullying (and the people who condone and defend it).

    How dare someone use their naughty bits in an unauthorized manner! Why, they surely deserve whatever punishment they get. Otherwise there might be some unspecified bad consequences.

    all the things that lead to bad consequences, it got so out of hand he had no choice

    An omnipotent, all-knowing being had no choice but to kill pretty much everyone? I don’t think you’ve thought this through very carefully. Surely killing everyone stops them from having free will every bit as much as giving them a god-induced change of heart. Would the latter really have been so much worse than the former?

  42. Essence says

    No Christians don’t say it’s ok to torture but they know why to let it go. And if you read the bible even in the old testement God gave people a chance before he destroyed. We all have a chance to stop walking the wrong road actually we get plenty of chances to stop living selfishly or rudely or accepting that respect and honor is not suitable today in our society, bullying is saying I have no repect for you and too bad of I hurt your feelings, we are living with narcissism and saying yep that’s fine, you don’t have to appologise for hurting my feelings or bringing my spirit down.
    I see all your replies are a form of bullying I’m not saying one bad word about any of you, I’m not saying your belief is wrong, I judged God as well once before I read his word, then I saw his way of living was good, made sense and felt right.
    A bully needs look into their own soul and decide what they are doing is right or wrong, it needs to stop at the bully.
    Plus when I die I have nothing to loose on a chance that God may be real or not, so why not believe, God doesn’t hurt me, I try to live my life a better way, I don’t bully or try to judge, I pray good things to those that hurt me, what’s so bad about that? I think it’s pretty cool……. The reality is because I believe God I have more haters than ever in my life, why do you think Christians would think it was worth standing up for God when so many people judge us for it?
    Go back to the 10 commandments, simply easy way to live but look how no one cares.
    There is a consequence for what is really in our hearts. And if you think no one is watching or listening well there is.
    Jesus did not come for the ones that believed he come for the ones that didn’t, who else in this holy book had a prostitute a theif and a killer all by his side? A man that loved and forgave all of their sins when no one else would give them the time of day.

  43. says

    No Christians don’t say it’s ok to torture but they know why to let it go.

    You speak in generalities – please explain how Christians “know why to let [torture] go”. I think you may be interpreting pointed questions asking you to define your terms and justify your position as bullying. I have a sticker on my front door that reads, “People have rights. Ideas do not”. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if you enter a discussion on a site with “Free Thought Blogs” in the title, you should be prepared to defend your position*.

    even in the old testement God gave people a chance before he destroyed.

    Sure, before God destroyed Sodom and Gommorah he rescued the only righteous people who were found there. (eg Lot, that fine example of morality who offered his virgin daughters to the mob outside his door who wanted to have sex with the angels at his house – http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/sodom_and_gomorrah/gn19_08.html.) And then after rescuing Lot and his family, the righteousness of Lot’s wife was rendered null and void by her indiscretion of looking back towards her home – http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/sodom_and_gomorrah/gn19_26a.html http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/sodom_and_gomorrah/gn19_26b.html

    Plus when I die I have nothing to loose on a chance that God may be real or not, so why not believe, God doesn’t hurt me, I try to live my life a better way

    – aka Pascal’s Wager.

    Here’s what is lost if people hold to a belief in the afterlife: Why would anyone need to worry about evils in the here-and-now if we have a MagicSkyDaddy who will make everything work out in the end? If LGBT people are bullied, it’s not a problem – for conservative Christians, they would be going to hell anyway – far worse torment than bullying, and maybe the bullying will scare them straight. For more liberal Christians, Jesus will stand with the LGBT people in their suffering and they will go to heaven and everything will come out right in the end. Realizing that death is the end puts things into a rather different perspective.

    Jesus…loved and forgave all of their sins when no one else would give them the time of day

    It’s an easy thing for anyone to do, and rather presumptuous of someone to say that they grant forgiveness to a killer and a thief when they were not the one wronged. As for the prostitute, if she was transgressing, it would only have been against herself.

    ==========
    * “But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defence to anyone who asks you to give an account of the hope which is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence” (I’m not sure whether to be proud or ashamed of the fact that I can quote that from memory, though the exact reference escapes me – maybe 1 Peter 3:15)

  44. says

    Go back to the 10 commandments, simply easy way to live but look how no one cares.

    Nonsense. Most of them are about god; they’re certainly not “easy way to live” from my perspective. Rules about not killing or stealing or lying or having sex outside marriage are not exclusive to “the 10 commandments.” The goddy commandments are worthless, the non-goddy ones are universal; the big ten are not useful.

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