Biggest takeaway: women have been so badly served by traditional western medicine that any other alternative seems better, and “woo” often offers attention that’s sadly lacking in western medicine.
John Moralessays
Katydid, hm. Your comment to me seems to deny women’s agency and acumen.
I mean, yes, it is a harmful scam — but those who fall for it are obviously saps.
I figure it’s only a small subset of women who fall for these silly scams, and it bothers me when people write as if women generically were such uneducated and silly victims.
(If I’m wrong and it’s a sizeable proportion of women, what does that say about those women? Nothing good)
@ John, it is poor form to deny the intense pressure across much of society to not learn fundamental science. Most intelligent people simply have no framework to evaluate pseudo scientific information. I regularly talk to intelligent people who fall for popular untruths and I do my level best to correct their knowledge, but I am only one against many.
Katydidsays
Wow, @John, you are very quick to mansplain away women’s decisions and paint women with a misogynistic brush.
Here’s an example from about a year before the pandemic: husband’s co-worker goes to the Philippines on vacation, comes back to work sick, husband catches it and passes it on to me. We’re both running fevers and coughing up vile stuff. I call the doctor, describe the symptoms, am told over the phone “it’s just a cold, relax and take some ibuprofen.” Husband calls immediately after and describes the symptoms, is told by the exact same medical professional “it sounds like pneumonia, come in immediately.” He responds to make a double appointment because his wife has it too. When a woman doesn’t have a man to fight for her getting necessary care, it’s too easy to fall back on a concerned non-medical person saying, “Have you tried inhaling steam laced with eucalyptus oil?”
There is a very long history in the USA of women’s medical symptoms being treated as wild imaginings, and of women’s pain being treated as unimportant. That’s a primary reason the USA ranks at the bottom of developed countries for women’s maternal health.
John Moralessays
Katydid:
Wow, @John, you are very quick to mansplain away women’s decisions and paint women with a misogynistic brush.
Wow, you got the very opposite of what I wrote!
Interesting.
Katydidsays
@JohnMorales, well, you call women “obviously saps” and say “it says nothing good” about women who try different treatments after conventional medicine fails them.
Here’s just one example of why women distrust the treatment they’ll get with western medicine: Serena Williams--a mentally strong, physically fit woman with a good support system and wealthy enough to afford the best in medical care--nearly lost her life after childbirth because nobody in the hospital believed her when she reported the symptoms of a pulmonary embolism. Because women are obviously such saps that they can’t can’t possibly recognize symptoms of a condition they’ve had before, amirite?
This is one reason women hire birth doulas or have homebirths--because they have no faith in western medicine that often risks their lives.
Sorry you can’t see that. Guess those stupid women can’t be geniuses like you, huh?
John Moralessays
Katydid:
you call women “obviously saps”
Sure… some women. Specifically, “only a small subset of women who fall for these silly scams”. And my point was “it bothers me when people write as if women generically were such uneducated and silly victims” — like you did.
and say “it says nothing good” about women who try different treatments after conventional medicine fails them
I was referring to women who fall for silly scams (you even quoted me!) since that was the topic, but what I wrote applies equally to men. You think they’re cluey, fine.
Guess those stupid women can’t be geniuses like you, huh?
That small subset of women, and I was not comparing them to me, I was comparing them to the rest of women — the ones who aren’t saps. Because, unlike you, I don’t think an attribute of a small subset is representative of the whole set.
(But if you think burning one’s genitals with steam indicates cleverness, go ahead)
anatsays
John, you are missing the whole point. No, the women in questions aren’t saps falling for silly scams. They are women who either were themselves poorly served by medical practitioners or who know of women who were poorly served by medical practitioners, and therefore lost trust in standard medical care and instead are looking for a practitioner who at least appears to be listening to them. By thinking of them as people of poor judgment you are missing the bigger problem of why they don’t trust practitioners offering standard medical practice.
Curt Sampsonsays
Re #5:
Wow, you got the very opposite of what I wrote!
No, she got what you wrote; you’re just not saying what you think you’re saying.
John Moralessays
Curt, you can only truthfully say that I’m not saying what I think I’m saying if you know what it is that I think I’m saying, and since by your own premise I haven’t said what I think I’m saying, you can’t know what it is I think I’m saying.
(I am vaguely amused you imagine you can gaslight me)
Biggest takeaway: women have been so badly served by traditional western medicine that any other alternative seems better, and “woo” often offers attention that’s sadly lacking in western medicine.
Katydid, hm. Your comment to me seems to deny women’s agency and acumen.
I mean, yes, it is a harmful scam — but those who fall for it are obviously saps.
I figure it’s only a small subset of women who fall for these silly scams, and it bothers me when people write as if women generically were such uneducated and silly victims.
(If I’m wrong and it’s a sizeable proportion of women, what does that say about those women? Nothing good)
@ John, it is poor form to deny the intense pressure across much of society to not learn fundamental science. Most intelligent people simply have no framework to evaluate pseudo scientific information. I regularly talk to intelligent people who fall for popular untruths and I do my level best to correct their knowledge, but I am only one against many.
Wow, @John, you are very quick to mansplain away women’s decisions and paint women with a misogynistic brush.
Here’s an example from about a year before the pandemic: husband’s co-worker goes to the Philippines on vacation, comes back to work sick, husband catches it and passes it on to me. We’re both running fevers and coughing up vile stuff. I call the doctor, describe the symptoms, am told over the phone “it’s just a cold, relax and take some ibuprofen.” Husband calls immediately after and describes the symptoms, is told by the exact same medical professional “it sounds like pneumonia, come in immediately.” He responds to make a double appointment because his wife has it too. When a woman doesn’t have a man to fight for her getting necessary care, it’s too easy to fall back on a concerned non-medical person saying, “Have you tried inhaling steam laced with eucalyptus oil?”
There is a very long history in the USA of women’s medical symptoms being treated as wild imaginings, and of women’s pain being treated as unimportant. That’s a primary reason the USA ranks at the bottom of developed countries for women’s maternal health.
Katydid:
Wow, you got the very opposite of what I wrote!
Interesting.
@JohnMorales, well, you call women “obviously saps” and say “it says nothing good” about women who try different treatments after conventional medicine fails them.
Here’s just one example of why women distrust the treatment they’ll get with western medicine: Serena Williams--a mentally strong, physically fit woman with a good support system and wealthy enough to afford the best in medical care--nearly lost her life after childbirth because nobody in the hospital believed her when she reported the symptoms of a pulmonary embolism. Because women are obviously such saps that they can’t can’t possibly recognize symptoms of a condition they’ve had before, amirite?
This is one reason women hire birth doulas or have homebirths--because they have no faith in western medicine that often risks their lives.
Sorry you can’t see that. Guess those stupid women can’t be geniuses like you, huh?
Katydid:
Sure… some women. Specifically, “only a small subset of women who fall for these silly scams”. And my point was “it bothers me when people write as if women generically were such uneducated and silly victims” — like you did.
I was referring to women who fall for silly scams (you even quoted me!) since that was the topic, but what I wrote applies equally to men. You think they’re cluey, fine.
That small subset of women, and I was not comparing them to me, I was comparing them to the rest of women — the ones who aren’t saps. Because, unlike you, I don’t think an attribute of a small subset is representative of the whole set.
(But if you think burning one’s genitals with steam indicates cleverness, go ahead)
John, you are missing the whole point. No, the women in questions aren’t saps falling for silly scams. They are women who either were themselves poorly served by medical practitioners or who know of women who were poorly served by medical practitioners, and therefore lost trust in standard medical care and instead are looking for a practitioner who at least appears to be listening to them. By thinking of them as people of poor judgment you are missing the bigger problem of why they don’t trust practitioners offering standard medical practice.
Re #5:
No, she got what you wrote; you’re just not saying what you think you’re saying.
Curt, you can only truthfully say that I’m not saying what I think I’m saying if you know what it is that I think I’m saying, and since by your own premise I haven’t said what I think I’m saying, you can’t know what it is I think I’m saying.
(I am vaguely amused you imagine you can gaslight me)