Here is a very cute video of little children at judo. I love the way they bow to each other before going at it, doing it so vigorously on one occasion that she fell over.
Is a child that age able to meaningfully consent to being trained in a sport?
Martial arts, as a branch of formalized violence, are especially problematic. A child that age lacks the maturity to make a moral decision regarding aggression or self-defense.
A Masked Avengersays
Is a child that age able to meaningfully consent to being trained in a sport?
Obviously not. Have you raised any children? It’s not possible to be a parent and also a true libertarian: initially nothing you do to a child is consensual.
Edsays
Martial arts teach self defense techniques and engage in controlled sparring, but do not glorify violence, or advocate it as anything but a last resort, except for perhaps a few very disreputable schools.
snoemansays
Marcus Ranum @1:
Martial arts, as a branch of formalized violence, are especially problematic. A child that age lacks the maturity to make a moral decision regarding aggression or self-defense.
The video is blocked where I am so I can’t see how old the kids are, but that’s a very good point. My kids were involved in a Korean martial arts program for many years, starting around age four or five, but what they learned for several years was definitely not the adult level techniques. It was far more about learning balance, how to fall and some basic, age-appropriate introduction to technique. The couple who owned the studio had modified the curriculum of the system they had learned, precisely because they thought it was wholly inappropriate for nine year old kids to be learning adult techniques and be awarded adult-level black belts (as happened in the studio they came from), for exactly the reasons you state.
Timothysays
My perspective: 20+ years of Aikido training. Black Belt rank. I’ve taught children, teens, and adults.
My thoughts on the video:
* This kids in this video are very cute! 🙂
* Age appropriate teaching of physical skills — including martial arts — is a wonderful idea. Before starting in a martial art, kids do — I think — need to understand some basics (like being able to differentiate between their left side and right). When I was teaching children’s classes, I generally invited parents to wait until their kids were 6 or 7 before putting them on the mat. There’s a karate school near me that has huge children’s classes, and they allow children under 6. I’ve visited a few times. With kids under 6, it sometimes feels more about the parents pushing than the kids actually wanting to train.
* Children’s classes can be HUGE money makers for martial arts schools. This can present a conflict of interest, I think.
* Having children this young compete (this video looks like a competition) is not helpful to the children.
My thoughts on some comments:
* I loathe the American tradition of awarding black belts to children. It’s the grade inflation equivalent of the martial art world.
* While I agree in general with A Masked Avenger about parents-as-dictators (my words), I also know that I have two children. Both are very athletic. Neither showed any interest / inclination in practicing Aikido. Even at a young age, I asked them both to try it. They did, and neither decided they wanted to continue. It broke my heart (I had dreams of raising my kids on the mat, like other people I’ve trained with). But I adjusted to what my kids were interested in.
I’m just glad they didn’t head-but each other whilst bowing!
Is a child that age able to meaningfully consent to being trained in a sport?
Martial arts, as a branch of formalized violence, are especially problematic. A child that age lacks the maturity to make a moral decision regarding aggression or self-defense.
Obviously not. Have you raised any children? It’s not possible to be a parent and also a true libertarian: initially nothing you do to a child is consensual.
Martial arts teach self defense techniques and engage in controlled sparring, but do not glorify violence, or advocate it as anything but a last resort, except for perhaps a few very disreputable schools.
Marcus Ranum @1:
The video is blocked where I am so I can’t see how old the kids are, but that’s a very good point. My kids were involved in a Korean martial arts program for many years, starting around age four or five, but what they learned for several years was definitely not the adult level techniques. It was far more about learning balance, how to fall and some basic, age-appropriate introduction to technique. The couple who owned the studio had modified the curriculum of the system they had learned, precisely because they thought it was wholly inappropriate for nine year old kids to be learning adult techniques and be awarded adult-level black belts (as happened in the studio they came from), for exactly the reasons you state.
My perspective: 20+ years of Aikido training. Black Belt rank. I’ve taught children, teens, and adults.
My thoughts on the video:
* This kids in this video are very cute! 🙂
* Age appropriate teaching of physical skills — including martial arts — is a wonderful idea. Before starting in a martial art, kids do — I think — need to understand some basics (like being able to differentiate between their left side and right). When I was teaching children’s classes, I generally invited parents to wait until their kids were 6 or 7 before putting them on the mat. There’s a karate school near me that has huge children’s classes, and they allow children under 6. I’ve visited a few times. With kids under 6, it sometimes feels more about the parents pushing than the kids actually wanting to train.
* Children’s classes can be HUGE money makers for martial arts schools. This can present a conflict of interest, I think.
* Having children this young compete (this video looks like a competition) is not helpful to the children.
My thoughts on some comments:
* I loathe the American tradition of awarding black belts to children. It’s the grade inflation equivalent of the martial art world.
* While I agree in general with A Masked Avenger about parents-as-dictators (my words), I also know that I have two children. Both are very athletic. Neither showed any interest / inclination in practicing Aikido. Even at a young age, I asked them both to try it. They did, and neither decided they wanted to continue. It broke my heart (I had dreams of raising my kids on the mat, like other people I’ve trained with). But I adjusted to what my kids were interested in.
Hmmmm ….