I find this jarringly horrible. Some people in Florida are driving around in a truck projecting Nazi imagery on buildings.
They also put up messages, like “Kanye was right about the Jews,” but showing a swastika intertwined with a cross is particularly revealing. Christian nationalism, anti-Semitism, blatant bigotry, all proudly displayed, and no one is doing anything about it. Try to do that in my neighborhood, and I’d be part of the mob taking bats to the projector and flipping the truck over.
What mystifies me is that there are subsets of the population in the US that revere Nazis and don’t react to this kind of hate speech with the kind of shuddering revulsion I feel. This is evil stalking our streets. It should not be tolerated, and the people perpetrating it need to understand the visceral disgust they trigger in others.
Unfortunately, these people are also close kin to all the rabid conservatives who hate “wokeness”.
The people perpetrating this DO understand the visceral disgust others feel in response. That’s why they do it. They are disgusting people.
Can’t show shuddering revulsion by destruction of property.
The bats need to be applied to the Nazis, while proclaiming a proud familial history of killing fascists and stringing up a Third Army flag on their vehicle.
The projector then repurposed in displaying spider graphics and similar pacifist imagery.
The truck stripped of pollutants and converted into a new artificial reef.
And the Nazis recycled at a local pig farm.
It seems to be the newest trend among Nazis. The same happened during a New Year’s Eve event in Rotterdam. Half the discussion afterwards focused on whether the messages were actually racist.
They must have a Twitter account.
Or they will soon enough, thanks to Elon Musk.
and
Just say No to Nazis.
Yeah, I don’t think that the timing was accidental. But West Palm Beach? Not exactly the Florida panhandle. How did these assholes get as far as they did in West Palm Beach?! Granted, West Palm Beach isn’t Brighton Beach (try that stunt in Brighton Beach… no one will ever find your body and no arrests in the case will ever be made…) but still… West Palm Beach is a very expensive, highly policed area. The kind of neighborhood where police watch nonresidents very closely and usually with a lot of stinkeye. Seriously, how did the Nazis get as far as they got?
Agree. But who is beating up and attacking Jewish and Asian people in the United States? The attackers of Jewish (and non-Jewish people mistakenly believed to be Jewish) are primarily Black men; that’s followed by Arabs and Muslims; and that’s followed by Latino men. This is why there’s so few arrests; “White Europeans” only comprise three percent of the attackers. The attackers of Asian people have a similar demographic. In other words, it’s inconvenient to admit who the attackers really are.
Two-thirds of attacks on Jewish people are committed by Black men.
Jewish parents have to take their kids out of public school, since their children are being terrorized because they are Jewish. Jewish female teachers in public schools are being terrorized and swarmed by anti-Semitic attacks. But who is doing this? Primarily Black, Arab, Muslim, and Latino children; not the children of Italian-decent or Irish-descent or Polish-descent or Russian-descent people.
There needs to be a discussion about anti-Semitism in the Black community. Anti-Semitism relies heavily on superstition. The Black and Latino communities are often very superstitious.
The main danger to the Jewish community in the United States is the Black community; whereas in England and France, it’s the Arab and Muslim community. Black Supremacists pose a much greater danger to Jewish and Asian people than do White Supremacists. Though I tend to believe that Black Supremacists and White Supremacists work together. I guess White Supremacists don’t bother attacking Jewish and Asian people; they just sort of rely on Black Supremacists to do the work for them.
I’m in Canada, which is generally safer for Jews (we are not a highly polarized country). But we’ve had Jewish female teachers terrorized and swarmed by anti-Semitic attackers (children who are less than 15 years old!) in the public schools. Even near where I live, which is a middle-class neighborhood.
A few years ago in France, my cousin was beaten up and left for dead by neo-Nazis. Guess who they were? Arabs with a Middle Eastern background; they were NOT “White Europeans.”
Many people don’t realize that Arabs and Muslims are a major voting section for the Le Pen Party in France. My point is that you don’t have to “White European” to be anti-Semitic or even a neo-Nazi.
Just as Jewish people can be racist or anti-Palestinian; Black, Arab, Muslim, and Latino people can be anti-Semitic or even pro-Nazi.
Swastika intertwined with the Christian Cross – please don’t rewrite history and pretend that Nazi Germany was Christian.
Nazi Germany was not fond of Christianity; though they did NOT persecute Christians. They were fond of Islam, however. Nazi Germany (including but not just Hitler) wanted to re-design the Christian Churches to have a Swastika imbedded in the Cross. Nazi Germany wanted to “re-design” and “re-structure” the Christian Churches; and to slowly move the German people away from Christianity. Nazi Germany Ideology was pagan; though they were fond of Muslims and Arabs in general.
The purpose of the Swastika imbedded in the Cross on the building in Florida is NOT necessarily a sign that this hatred is from “White Christian Nationalists” (though it certainly could be). The purpose of the Swastika imbedded in the Cross on the building in Florida is to PROMOTE NAZI GERMAN IDEOLOGY, WHICH INCLUDES a re-structuring of the Christian churches.
There’s no evidence that this hatred comes from “White Supremacists.” It could just as likely be from “Black Supremacists.” And does it really matter? White Supremacists and Black Supremacists probably work together.
Also, we know exactly WHO IS beating up Jewish and Asian people in the United States. It’s not exactly “White Europeans.” It’s primarily Black men; followed by Arab and Muslim men; followed by Latino men. That’s why there are so few arrests.
Please don’t re-write history and claim that Nazi Germany was a “Christian society.” It was OPPOSED to Christianity, though it did NOT persecute Christians. The goal was to gradually shift the German society away from Christianity. You do know that Nazi Ideology was pagan, rather than Christian? That’s why many Native Indian tribal leaders are so pro-Hitler and pro-Nazi (even in Canada!). Canada has had several scandals where Native Indian tribal leaders have been vehemently pro-Hitler and pro-Nazi (even though we are generally not a polarized country).
I’m critical of the Christian Right. But I also don’t support re-writing of Nazi Germany’s history. We need to tell the truth about Nazi Germany and its evil behavior.
It’s also a little immaterial whether this hatred was done by “White Christian Nationalists” or by “Nation of Islam” or by “Black Hebrew Israelites” (BHI practice Christianity, rather than Judaism); or by Black and Latino men who are anti-Semitic. Because I personally think that these groups work together.
Theoretically, one or two fog/smoke machines, a few well-positioned observers, and some basic geometry ought to, well, smoke out the location of the projector and, with any luck, the projectionist. Probably not very practical for rapid deployment, though.
Seriously, how did the Nazis get as far as they got?
Driving of police vehicle?
The weird thing is that the Nazis were the biggest screw-ups of the 20th C . Twelve years from taking over Germany to committing suicide or being hanged. Not a great record of achievement.
Another example of far-right propaganda is the film “I Can’t Breathe ” about the oppression of wealthy White Christian men: the George Floyd story with a race reversal.
It is deservedly mocked by God Awful Movies:
https://youtu.be/ToD_KSPugvQ
Isn’t there some bloke in Florida that is good at getting rid of serial killers? Nazis should fit nicely into that category.
BTW far-right people are big on “projecting”.
What do you expect? It is an old legacy of the US. For instance the largest Nazi organization outside of Germany in the 1930’s and up to 1941 was in the US. The same with formal Fascist parties outside of Italy during that time period.
I think that applies even now, the US has the largest Nazi and Nazi organizations these days. It is a part of the American DNA almost.
@5 silvrhalide
“West Palm Beach is a very expensive, highly policed area. The kind of neighborhood where police watch nonresidents very closely and usually with a lot of stinkeye. Seriously, how did the Nazis get as far as they got?”
You may have answered your own question. There are undoubtedly plenty of White-Supremicist police officers in Florida.
Cue liberal theists to lecture everyone how “they aren’t TRULY Christian/religious.”
Of course not! If they did something to stop them, they might fight back!
MollysMeow: your comments were approved so they could be criticized, but you are banned for being gross & ahistorical.
For instance, Nazi Germany was deeply, profoundly Christian; they were majority Catholic and Lutheran. They were supported by many in the Catholic church hierarchy. There was a strong post-war reaction to rewrite history and hide their involvement. It is absurd to suggest that a racist ideology which favored the idea of a Northern European master race had a soft spot for Islam.
I don’t trust any of your statistics.
Someone should tell these “proud boys” that the image could be read as “Jesus’s cross puts a stake in the heart of Fascism”. Plus, such a read would appeal to those who believe in SJW Jesus.
I guess you need a second truck with a brighter lamp and overwriting pattern to “erase” the Nazi truck as it goes.
The debate over whether Nazi’s were Christian: – The churches in Germany were co-opted to not oppose Nazism and the concentration camp guards went to church on Sunday. Yeah, the Nazi party saw the churches as potential competition for loyalty but people like Pope went along with the Nazi’s. Most churches in Germany did not do themselves proud although there were isolated churches that took huge risks to protect Jews and other Nazi victims.
Nazism came straight out of xianity.
.1. The Holocaust was first advocated by Catholic turned Protestant Martin Luther as detailed in his book,
At Nurenberg, the Nazis said they were just following Martin Luther’s plan.
.2. Hitler in his manifesto, Mein Kampf, used the name of jesus 33 times. He never mentioned Darwin once.
.3. Almost all of Hitler’s willing followers were good Catholics and Protestants. The SS, which actually carried out the Holocaust, prohibited atheists from joining.
Wikipedia: In fact, atheism was banned within the SS as Himmler believed it to be a form of egotism that placed the individual at the center of the universe, and thus constituted a rejection of the SS principle of valuing the collective over the individual.[67] All SS men were required to list themselves as Protestant, Catholic or gottgläubig (“Believer in God”).[68]”
The Catholic church greatly aided the rise of the Nazis.
The guy who became Pope Pius XII negotiated an agreement with the Nazis in 1933 where they wouldn’t oppose the Nazis for not bothering the church.
The Reichskonkordat was signed by the future Pope Pius XII and the Nazis in 1933.
Strangely enough, it survived World War II and is still the law in Germany.
Wikipedia: Reichskonkordat
Concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich
The Reichskonkordat (“Concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich”[1]) is a treaty negotiated between the Vatican and the emergent Nazi Germany. It was signed on 20 July 1933 by Cardinal Secretary of State Eugenio Pacelli, who later became Pope Pius XII,..
robro @17
When I saw that image, the two first things that came to mind were “cross stabbing swastika through the heart”, or “swastika trying to grab and strangle cross”. Just my personal reaction, but for me definitely not suggestive of an alliance between Christianity and fascism.
As for the historical question of Christianity and Nazism/fascism, I would say that while neither the Nazis nor their Fascist allies were explicitly Christian in the sense that Christian nationalists are, they got a lot of support from right wing Christians because of a common hostility to Communism and anti-Semitism. Even many Christians who were turned off aspects of Nazism and Fascism found them infinitely preferable to communists. There were Christians who strongly and openly opposed Nazism and Fascism, but they were a distinct minority.
There are no doubt many reasons for the steep decline of Christianity in Europe during the past century, but I suspect that the degree to which many Catholics and Protestants supported or at least acquiesced in Nazism and Fascism and their horrors contributed significantly to Christianity’s decline in parts of Europe.
But Hitler was an atheist! /s
MollysMeow @7:
Compared to the millions of Jews who were slaughtered, I guess the thousands of Christians seem negligible, but I like to remember anyone who stood up to the Nazis knowing they would die, even when they could have copped out.
and
If you asked Hitler and the Nazis if they were xians, they said so many, many times.
When Hitler (a Catholic) died, the Archbishop of Berlin scheduled a funeral mass for him.
Something in my software doesn’t like the link in the OP, and told me:
or is that something at joemygod’s end?
raven @24:
So has Trump. I wonder why.
Rob:
Because their supporters are Christians.
So they appeal to their base.
Fascism and Christianity go hand-in-hand, so it works.
[Seems about time, again]
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/gallery/german-churches-and-the-nazi-state-photographs
John, you can always be relied upon to state the almost fucking obvious. “Because they sought support from an established majority” gets closer.
On the SS belt buckles.
Gott mit uns.
I might guess that the claimed stats above coupd be explained by including all violent crime and not just crimes caused by religious or racial hatred. No idea if they’re correct or not.
It seems to me that, distasteful, obnoxious, and harmful as it is, it could constitute free speech if the actions were taken to court. The cops may not be doing anything because there is nothing they can actually do. It isn’t like graffiti that needs to be physically removed, so it isn’t vandalism. I’m not American, so is there something in US or Florida law that prohibits this?
Gerrard @30: I think the SS wore Meine Ehre heißt Treue (my honour is loyalty). Gott mit uns was worn by the regular forces, going back centuries.
ardipithecus
I would think there would be some law against using someone else’s building to host a billboard without permission in this way. I assume it would be a minor offense given the lack of permanent property damage. No idea though.
Rob
I stand corrected. Thank you very much.
Rob @29, you can always be relied to soft-pedal the actuality.
Anyway, you don’t really wonder why, do you?
And it works because Fascism and Christianity are most compatible.
Yeah, seriously, MollysMeow can go choke on a rock. That mess is all wrong. +4 Hammer of Banning is the correct approach here. No quarter for Nazis and their apologists. Normalizing fascist racial hierarchy crap by “just asking questions” or “posing conundrums” is all about normalizing fascist opinions. Don’t need any of that. And numbnuts who idolize the swastika and Nazi Germany can just fuck right off, always.
MollysMeow @6 and @7: Boy I’m glad that PZ have banned you. You got absolutely no bases in what you’ve claimed in your 2 pathetic posts. Everything you said is entirely all made up from your sick, delusional mind to conceal the fact that the Nazis were hard-core Christians with ties to the Roman Catholic Church and all of the attacks on Jews and Asians in the US were all done by Trump-motivated White Christian Terrorists rather than blacks. So take all your made up lies and shove it!
Pierce @25, at their end. Just the text message asking you to enable the domain.
@22: No, silly, Hitler was a Neopagan, and so was everyone who supported his agenda! Pope Palpadict said so (in his inaugural speech no less)!
Gerrard @34: If nothing else, there would be the TORT offense of defaming/causing embarrassment to the owners or tenants of the property on which the offending image was projected. #Bone4Tuna getting a judgment strong enough to deter repeat offenses though…
I guess you need a second truck with a brighter lamp and overwriting pattern to “erase” the Nazi truck as it goes.
Or maybe a good rifle to shoot out the offending projector. That would be a crime, of course, but I suspect most prosecutors would choose not to press charges unless you hit a person instead of just the machine.
Some of the material here has already been covered by others upthread but there’s A good ten minute clip on Hitler the very much NOT athiest but Christian by Non-Stamp Collector here
@ 6 &7 MollysMeow : It certainly wasn’t Black Supremacists who tried to destroy US Democracy and stage a Trumpists Coup on Jan 6th. To talk about supposed Black Supremacists here is a classic bit of Whatabboutery which seems founded on nothing more than unsourced highly dubious claimed stats – I’d love to know where you got your false figures from here although since youve been banned you clearly can’t be providing them but FYI if you read this :
Source : https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/12/us/politics/domestic-terror-white-supremacists.html
Plus :
Source : https://www.brookings.edu/blog/how-we-rise/2022/05/17/preventing-racial-hate-crimes-means-tackling-white-supremacist-ideology/
It is very clear that White Supremacists and Christianists – and there is huge overlap there are by far the biggest threat here. and we downplay and ignore that reality at our peril. Your claims are simply factually inaccurate and erroneous and appear to be based in your personal racial prejudice whichn I strongly urge you to reflect upon and reconsider.
Yers we do need to tell the truth and I don’t think youre critical enough of the Christian right. I’m not seeing much condemnation of this evil and the disturbing rise of the reichwing here generally or in this specific instance of hate & nazi Christianist propaganda being used here.
Fixed it for you to make it factually accurate. Now please take your own advice and stop trying to rewrite history regarding nazis and deny reality regarding racism & the relative threats of White Supremacy vs Black supremacy here.
I should have said a brighter laser scanner but yeah, just overwrite the projected sign with a nice geometric pattern or something. Intermix with “DeSantis is a Nazi” captions.
@6 What. The. Fuck.
I lived in Scotland County, NC for a year. I can tell you right now that white nationalists/white supremacists/Christian nationalists absolutely do not work with any black people for any reason.
What drugs are you on? I can’t tell if you are on the wrong drugs or the wrong dosage.
PS. Again FYI for MollysMeow :
Source : https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/remembering-muslims-murdered-auschwitz
& whilst some Muslim leaders worked with the nazis notably the Mufti of Jerusalem Mohammed Amin al-Husseini and nazi propaganda did try to pit Muslims against Jews largely unsuccessfully :
Source : Page 27 Conclusion here, https://scholarworks.utrgv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1072&context=hist_fac
Plus the ADL’s “audit” of anti-Semitic incidents here :
Source : https://www.adl.org/resources/report/us-white-supremacist-propaganda-remained-historic-levels-2021-27-percent-rise
Emphasis added. Presumably their audit for last year isn’t yet finished or published. No sign of any Black Supremacist motivated attacks there whatsoever.
I tried to find an analysis ideally including a graph directly breaking down anti-Semitic attacks / incidents by motive eg White Supremacists vs Black Supremacists but my google-fu failed me here. perhaps others may have better Google-fu and ability to find that?
However, whilst White Supremacists groups were noted in both ADL and Southern Poverty Law Centre regarding anti-Semitism, Black Supremacists were not.
@5 silvrhalide
Palm Beach itself is very expensive and probably heavily patrolled by cops and private security. Parts are probably swarming with Secret Service because TFG.
West Palm Beach varies depending where you are. I was working down there in the late 80s and a friend who I stayed with lived right above a crack den in a not so expensive part of town. He later lived in a low rent mobile home park. Not quite Palm Beach digs.
I thought that building looked familiar. That’s the CSX building on the St. John’s River, downtown Jacksonville…the place of my birth and rearing. CSX was the latest incarnation of the railroad company. Jax is a wonderful town. The local politicians are appropriately aghast that their constituents might do something like this. Bull.
Question: is there much overlap between the “aryan” branch of fascism in Florida and ex-cuban far right groups?
Logically there should not be, but “logic” has no place with fringe weirdos.
@9 “Driving of police vehicle?”
No, seriously, that’s the part that doesn’t add up. West Palm Beach is wealthy by Florida standards (lots of federal government defense contract companies in the area). It’s a separate municipality from Palm Beach, which is a massively wealthy area (Mar-A Lago is located in Palm Beach–Palm Beach is a winter home to the mega rich)and a not-insignificant portion of the population is Jewish. Money calls the shots everywhere and Palm Beach is no exception. I just can’t imagine the millionaires and billionaires living in Palm Beach not shitting a brick about Nazi activity in their next-door neighborhood of West Palm Beach, which is still wealthy but not mega rich wealthy like Palm Beach, with which it shares a border.
Palm Beach has 3X the number of cops per capita as the Florida average. West Palm Beach is not as heavily policed but it’s still pretty heavily policed. If either police department was a hotbed of white nationalism/supremacist, it’s a pretty safe bet that money would talk, steps would be taken and there would be a lot of firings and attendant replacements and suddenly the police departments for both municipalities would be a lot less Nazi-like.
I get WPB and PB not caring about what happens in the redneck portions of Florida but not giving a damn about Nazi activity in what is functionally their back yard/next door neighbor? It doesn’t add up.
@5
They got away with it because its not illegal to do this.
@7
Nazis actually did persecute Christians and had Christians in concentration camps. Specifically Jehovas Witnesses. How many members of the camp were Witneses? I don’t know but it was enough o give them their own symbol where they had to wear a purple triangle like the jews had to wear the star for identification.
Nazis had christian slogans in their uniform and I think Hitler blamed the death of Christ on Jews which garnered support from anti-semitic Christians. At the same time there are reports of negative Christian sentiment from Nazis but not sure how much of that is real or propaganda meant to dissociate Nazis from Christianity. Definitely Hitler used Christianity to garner support enough that I feel comfortable calling Nazi’s primary Christian nation. The idea that they are pagan appears to be becasue they love using pagan imagery and symbols but im sorry, theres nothing more Christian than adopting pagan imagery. We all know what I mean by that.
Basically, Its complicated. CHristians hate other Christians all the time.
You are right that there has been a growing anti-semitic sentiment among POC. Ive seen it myself being Latino however some of us are also Latino Jews so at least among Cubans I dont see much of this. Could be just that I haven’t encountered it as anti-semites of color generally don’t go around advertising it. Among black friends whether black-latino or african-american Ive definitely seen it. Nothing violent on my end but it is a problem we have to address. Its a problem that has always been there but been brought out to the forefront by Ye. The idea that perps of hate violence is mostly done by POC needs more evidence and I don’t think its true. I think its perceived that way because currently anti-semitic language is being spread by people of color giving the impression that they are the main perpetrators of hate crimes.
If StevoR’s source is to be believed (an I don’t see a reason not to), black people are definitely somewhat over represented in the stats. with 22% of hate crimes for a population thats 13%. I admit im bad math but it does seem to be over represented in hate crimes. Over representation of things can make the problem appear as if it was generally associated within that group. Like how most police officers kill white people, but proportionally shoot black people so police violence affects everyone but appears to be a problem in the black community thanks to the numbers being proportionally higher. I think the over represented aspect deals more with LGBTQ stuff more so than jewish hatred but don’t have figures, just going with personal experience.
At the end of the day its true that this is whataboutism. We don’t know if it was black israelites or latino “white” supremacists yes, but my money is on white people although this is West Palm Beach which is very diverse so could go either way.
@StevoR
I’m not convinced that Meows response is due to racial prejudice. Theres a lot of hate among minorities about other minorities. It doesn’t get addressed because the problems of hate crimes is only seen through a white supremacist lens, which is what your doing here. I agree it should be the focus because there are way more white supremacists than there are Latino white supremacists, black israelites, anti-semitic muslims and more, but if you don’t think there is not a big problem with anti-semites among POC then you clearly only hang around white people all day. Right now as it stands the biggest anti jewish propaganda is not coming from white people, its coming from black people not just with Ye but other podcasters and influencers. its a problem. White supremacy is still a factor regardless since white supremacists dont mind piggybacking black anti-jewish hate to spread their ideology like we saw with Nick Fuentes* pallying around with Ye. So I agree and understand how focusing on white supremacists is important to address but if we dont address whats happening now with other minorities regarding jews then that’s ignoring a problem that otherwise helps white supremacists.
WPB is 1/3 white, 1/3 black, 1/3 hispanic. Could have been anyone of these. You are right that its whataboutism here tho but bringing up Jan 6 is also whataboutism as most of those were fascist not because of white supremacy but because they are Trumpistas. Not all Trumpistas are white supremacists but most white supremacists are Trumpistas except for the looniest of nazis who think Trump is secretly a jewish plant but those are rare. And no, I’m not saying there weren’t any white supremacists in Jan 6.
John Morales @ # 39 – thanks for the info.
A possibly related development: this evening, I’ve had trouble accessing a bunch of sites (though none other with that particular error message), and I suspected some sort of JavaScript failure. Some sites (e.g., duckduckgo.com) won’t load at all; others, like 7sudoku.com, will load backgrounds but won’t present some features (like sudoku puzzles, in this case).
I found a posting on NoScript.com’s user forum about a similar but not identical problem, which suggested restarting Firefox. Which I did, and now those sites (including joemygod.com, after I gave it a temporary clearance in NoScript) work. I recently (can’t remember exactly when) downloaded a FF update; prob’ly a connection there somehow.
@50
People are just going to deflect with “police allow it because a lot of them are white supremacists”. They say that with no valid evidence while simultaneously shitting on another user who didn’t bring a source to their claims either. Down here you either shit on police 25/7 and paint them as the worst people imaginable or you are a bootlicker.
Ockkams razor is that it was allowed for two reasons, 1) its not illegal and 2) most people are technologically illiterate to anything that’s not in their pocket so they wouldn’t even know where to look to find the source of the projection. So the nazi-van gets away with it.
@46- StevoR
I did find an ADL writeup on Black Hebrew Israelites, who are an odd bunch:
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/black-hebrew-israelites
Seems some subgroups are more radical
than others and there have been limited instances attributed to individuals that cross the line. Not quite the prevalence of White Supremacist actions.
More background:
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/extremist-sects-within-black-hebrew-israelite-movement
@47 Yeah, I hear you but in the late 80s, Florida was awash in drug money, so much so that when the federal government suddenly required cash deposits over $10K to justify how that cash was acquired (in 89-90 IIRC), Miami Dade County nearly went bankrupt. WPB isn’t mega rich like PB but it is still wealthy, overall, by Florida standards. And sure, there is a lot more variability in the living situations in WPB (the wealthy have to buy their cocaine from someone), so I can see the PB & WPB cops turning a blind eye to some crime (Jeffrey Epstein anyone?), I just don’t see them turning a blind eye to that sort of Nazi activity.
@48- robro
I recall there being some incidents of the nature PZ mentions in the OP during the annual war between the Gators and Bulldogs which by tradition takes place at the neutral site of Jacksonville.
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-ne-university-of-florida-university-of-georgia-anti-semitic-kanye-west-20221030-qeoovmfcwndqneql7kvlot26we-story.html
“The University of Florida and the University of Georgia issued a joint statement Sunday condemning an antisemitic message that was displayed at TIAA Bank Field in Jacksonville during Saturday’s Gators-Bulldogs football game.
The message displayed outside one end zone said, “Kanye is right about the Jews.” Video of the message was shared extensively on social media…
Also I had a friend living in Orange Park in the early 90s. I didn’t spend as much time in Jax as WPB, but enjoyed the Jacksonville Landing right on the river. Reminded me a little of the Inner Harbor in Baltimore. Fun times.
@51 Technically it’s not illegal to drive a beater car through a wealthy neighborhood either but try it sometime and see how far you get before some cop starts tailing you or pulls you over on some imaginary pretext.
Pierce R. Butler@52>
I typically use NoScript on Firefox, and recently it’s been acting up a bit. Every now and then, the little NoScript Icon up in the menu bar area will get a little question-mark over it, instead of the standard exclamation point. And when it does that, I can’t pull down the typical menu of all the script listings running on a given page. Most sites work ok, but some just won’t load at all. It’s only been happening over the past week or two (at least that I’ve noticed…), and so far closing out firefox, restarting it, and restoring previous session seems to work okay for me.
I really hope this is a temporary bug, and not a deliberate attempt to make NoScript completely unusable on some websites, I really like NoScript, and absolutely abhor using a work computer where I can’t change any of the settings, and have to see how horrible so many web pages are with all the adds and pop-ups and other nonsense…
Anyways, on to topic, weren’t there a bunch of people projecting stuff on trump tower and such? I kinda doubt they were allowed to keep doing that without repercussions, and if anything in this world were remotely fair (ha.), I would hope the same reasoning used to remove the projections from trump tower, could also be used to shut down nazi propaganda/terrorism.
It used to be that the one thing we all agreed on is that NAZIs are always the bad guys. Need a punching bag for the hero in your movie? Bring in a NAZI. Same with TV shows, video games, cartoons, books. NAZIs only exist to get the shit kicked out of them, There is no such thing as a good NAZI.
And thank you Raging Bee.
OT
“Getting away with it?”
Here is a comparison between working in USA and Germany.
Pay especial attention to the part beginning at the 13minute mark.
Americans have been soo screwed over for more than a generation… and are proud of it.
https://youtu.be/XOGGB7Rh1Tg
@ 58. silvrhalide : Beater car? hadn’t heard that term before.. Googles :
https://www.autolist.com/guides/what-is-a-beater-car
Aha. Okay. Thanks, Something new learnt today.
@59. lochaber : ” weren’t there a bunch of people projecting stuff on trump tower and such?”
Yes. See :
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/projection-artist-using-trump-hotel-protest-president
We really need to top picture here shown as a sequel every time the nazi’s project their crap here.
See also :
https://www.npr.org/local/305/2021/01/26/960753513/robin-bell-spent-four-years-projecting-protest-messages-on-the-trump-hotel-now-what
^ the top picture on thesecond linked item needs to follow the OP’s nazi staff that is.
From the the link in #63 :
Oh ..because I always think of something after I’ve hit the ‘post comment’ button already.
Am NOT a lawyer but surely even in the USA there’s a big legal as well as ethical distinction between projecting legitimate protest messages and hate speech?
That’s hard to argue with. Thinking on the recent Christmas, the time of year, the tree, the gifts, the food, the elves, the traditional decorations; pretty much everything has a non-Christian origin.
Mere hate speech is protected speech under the US first amendment. The presence of civil or criminal liability in the US does not hinge on the difference between hate speech and not hate speech. The law must be content neutral. That’s the impact of the first amendment. There is no special law against hate speech, but hate speech might be libelous, or it might be inciting immediate unlawful behavior (a very high bar in American law), etc.
However, once it has been determined legally that there is civil or criminal liability, then the difference between hate speech and not hate speech could be used to determine contrition, likelihood to reoffend, civil damages, criminal sanctions, etc.
FTFY
I abhor gun violence. So, the compromise almost acceptable answer could be: shoot the projector lamp and not the rtwingnut imbecile wielding it.
@25 Pierce R. Butler. I checked that URL and found that the site dies a sneaky check of your browser, its version and settings before it will let TSL (the Transport Security layer) proceed to show the site on your screen.
@25 Pierce R. Butler., you might try ‘adblock latitude’ and ‘privacy badger’ instead of trying to block all javascripts. Some javascripts are harmless.
LykeX @67: I suspect most ‘new’ religions adopt aspects of pre-existing ones. It makes sense for easing transitions. I don’t think it’s a particularly Christian thing.
Akira
I remind you that IIRC some high level French courts have declared that the Israel boycott divest movement was declared a hate movement and their speech was declared to be hate speech.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-israel-court/european-court-rules-against-france-in-israel-boycott-activist-case-idUSKBN23I1CQ
Just looked it up again. Seems the European court of whatever overturned that, so that’s good.
To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, do you know anyone that you would trust to decide for you what you could and could not read? The law says that there must be some overworked government bureaucrat who makes that decision for you. Also, this law is basically never used to stop the hate speech of the three Abrahamic religions, which are collectively the biggest source of hate speech by far, as evidenced by this thread. If you want to see the justification that these Nazis have for their hate of Jewish people, look no further than a book which is in every Christian church on the planet.
So, even if you think that hate speech should be banned, you have the common problem that you have to trust that some random government bureaucrat won’t make the wrong decision and won’t be corrupted, and worse, you have to face the fact that hate speech laws have a disturbing tendency to be used to protect the actual purveyors of hate speech against their critics. I don’t see the hate speech laws being used against the churches that these people would attend if they were in Europe.
Basically, I still think that the laws against hate speech are a knee jerk reaction based on the sort of “but think of the children!” moral panic without any real examination of the evidence as to whether they actually work and whether their benefits outweigh their consequences. I think these laws don’t work and I think they’re dangerous.
PS: I’m much more open to laws banning specifically pro Nazi speech. At least that has more clearly defined limits which I hope would exclude the Israel BDS movement.
PPS: Standard disclaimer: I have nothing against Jewish people, but the Israeli government is a racist apartheid government that is committing ethnic cleansing and perhaps genocide. They should go with a real two-state solution or a non-religious single-state already, but they won’t because the Israeli right-wingers have all the power and their interpretation of their holy book says that they have the right to the land and that non-Jewish people should be kicked out.
@69 Akira
Please, if we’re repealing amendments at least get rid of our second amendment before touching the first. I rather enjoy not being thrown in prison for having a thoughtcrime.
I must begrudingly admit the Libertarians seem to be correct about free speech absolutism; Democrats and their hangers-on calling themselves “leftists” are staking out an authoritarian, miserably unpopular position by yelling at clouds and calling for speech they don’t like to be outlawed. At least make a convincing case for how your legal structure would punish wannabe fascists scrawling hate speech on a bathroom wall, and yet would protect speech that the ruling and other elite classes do not approve of. We have not devised that system yet, and until someone does the Libertarians seem to be making the best case: if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, especially if we’re talking about one of the only good laws in the U.S. constitution.
#73: there’s even a name for it: syncretism.
@75. beholder & GerrardOfTitanServer : You do realise that a lot of nations including aming others Denmark, Brazil, South Africa, Malta, Singapore, Germany and Australia already have good laws against hate speech right? See :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_by_country
Do you think they haven’t made “.. convincing case for how your legal structure would punish wannabe fascists scrawling hate speech on a bathroom wall, and yet would protect speech that the ruling and other elite classes do not approve of.” Do you think I am afraid of committing “thoughtcrimes” or fear bureacrats telling me what I can and can’t say because we have such laws?
Nope. I don’t and I’m sure commenters fromother natiosn with such basic anti-hate speech laws can also chime in here too.
Is it really that hard to see the line between critiicisng certian policies and doctrines and actions vs targeting entire ethnic and gender and orientation and other groups fro oppressive, dehumanising demonising and cruel mistreatment even genocide based on things beyond their control?
I mean, look at your last PPS in your #74 GoTS and tell me you aren’t making the key distinction between nation X and its policies vs hate speech targeting all of people Y there?
I don’t think its too hard to tell hate speech from unpopular legitimate free speech.
SteveoR
If it is so easy to tell the difference, then tell me how the highest French court got it so wrong, ruling that BDS is a hate movement and their advocacy is hate speech?
If corruption and inappropriate favoritism is so unlikely in the enforcement of hate speech laws, then tell me how the highest French court got it wrong so wrong?
Are you going to claim that this is just an outlier? This is a pretty severe and significant outlier. It was being used in the highest court in France to protect a nation that is committing ethnic cleansing, perhaps genocide, against its critics. That sounds like the worst case scenario to me. It happened. At least grant me that there are sometimes genuine problems in identification and enforcement.
lochaber @ # 59: … NoScript on Firefox, and recently it’s been acting up a bit.
I’ve had exactly the same experiences. Mozilla released a new version of FF this afternoon, so maybe that’ll fix (some of) it.
shermanj @ #s 71 & 72: … the site dies a sneaky check of your browser, its version and settings before it will let TSL (the Transport Security layer) proceed to show the site …
Any idea of why that might be?
… you might try ‘adblock latitude’ and ‘privacy badger’ instead …
I also use Privacy Badger, and so far like it. An across-the-board ad blocker strikes me as a little more than I want: ads as such do provide a little income for some small sites I’d like to support, so I’ll tolerate them. At least at the time I installed NoScript, it seemed that JavaScript was the primary vehicle for Google and its imitators to suck user data from screen views*. That violation of my privacy goes further than I want to allow, so I use NS even though sometimes (particularly, a Twitter quote-link on, say, salon.com) I have to click the “temporarily allow” command three or four times to see what’s getting blocked**.
*I don’t know, but suspect, the snoopware now uses other avenues as well.
**Copying part of a web page and pasting it elsewhere (usually an email) reveals that at least sometimes graphics etc do make it through NoScript and into my system, with only the display getting blocked, which makes me suspicious as to how much privacy protection I’m getting anyway.