1. says

    I can’t be super happy about the destruction of historical artifacts, but if they’re used as icons to perpetuate the evils of the past, I can’t be too upset either.

  2. daverytier says

    Lol, it was you freaks who wished for a rematch. So don’t whine when your enemy picks up where they stopped.

  3. Pierce R. Butler says

    Over the top even for Confederate sympathizers: that portrait of Gen. Jackson with a backdrop resembling angel wings.

  4. cartomancer says

    We don’t need those things to remember history. We’ve learned all there is to learn from them – and there wasn’t much of that to begin with. Keeping them safe any longer is not preserving history – it’s fetishising it.

    As an ancient and medieval historian I’m quite used to huge gaps in the material record caused by fires and burning. Fact of life. Goes with the territory. Suck it up, Nazis.

  5. komarov says

    Re: cartomancer (#11):

    “We don’t need those things to remember history. We’ve learned all there is to learn from them – and there wasn’t much of that to begin with. Keeping them safe any longer is not preserving history – it’s fetishising it.”

    Surely that’s a matter of presentation? Keeping the flag, manuscripts and whatever else in a virtual temple to the confederacy is absolutely a bad idea. But a regular museum, where these and other artefacts are presented to provide context for the history – without distortion in as much as that is possible – would be a good thing, wouldn’t it? For regular visitors, museums generally are places where they get to learn about stuff by actually looking at it. It’s a big step up from a history book with the occasional picture. Well, maybe not “up” exactly, but different in a good way.

    As for the gaps, it’s hardly ideal when people go around deliberately destroying bits of history. Sure, there’s no point crying over accidental loss – with exceptions, such as mining companies whoopsieying ancient heritage sites of indiginous peoples.
    I’ll grant that as reasons go, stealing evidence of oppression from a temple to said oppression is among the better reasons. Nor would I expect anyone to steal these things, shout, “It belongs in a museum”, and make a run for it, especially given how things are in the US just now. But when people go around deliberately destroying bits of history, whatever their motivations, that’s worth a little cringe at least.

  6. unclefrogy says

    that the only way to get them to release the “sacred symbols” of their failed rebellion to history is for it to be reduced to ash so be it. It is their choice. as for the contents of the documents I would hope that there are copies of the information some where but if not oh Well!
    uncle frogy

  7. komarov says

    On second thought I withdraw the second part of my comment on account of how the US would never actively do anything about these temples, even though they really should. No amount of ideal-world-ism works here.

  8. lb says

    Pierce R. Butler: The “angel wings” illusion on that painting of Jackson is due to the fact that the painting is sagging on the stretcher.

    I live and work not far from this building. I was frankly surprised people were able to get in the doors in front because they are solid steel. I guess they got in the back way. We always call the place “The Mausoleum” because it has that appearance. I’ve been inside–it’s like a combination church/country-club/office. In a way, I was sad that these artifacts were destroyed–I think it’s important to keep them and accurately re-identify them for what they are within a modern context. That way we can tell the story of what these things truly represented for the next generation so that history is not ever repeated. I visited a museum in Dachau where there were Nazi artifacts on display. The way they were presented and how the story was told was totally heartbreaking and an incredibly effective teaching tool. Just my two cents. :-/

  9. robro says

    nomdeplume — That’s “United Daughters of the Confederacy” (UDC) not “Daughters of the American Revolution” (DAR). Similar purpose, different wars. The three women may or may not be triplets. Could just be inbreeding.

  10. says

    I have mixed feelings about burning historical artefacts. They exist to teach us important lessons about history. Of course context is everything. If they were used to justify the obscenity of slavery and glorify the institution that benefited from it then a case could be made for petrol and a match. I mean you wouldn’t burn Auschwitz with the lessons it teaches about human capacity for evil. On the other hand if it was used to glorify the Nazi enterprise…

  11. Czech American says

    The thing is that while they were historical artifacts, that building is not just a museum, it is a headquarters in the culture war fighting to rebrand the confederacy as noble warriors for the “lost cause” instead of what they were: warriors for slavery.

    They are upset that they didn’t get to fight their war without any damage to their precious icons. Human casualties on the other side are, of course, fine with them.

  12. numerobis says

    There must be a subtlety to why daverytier got banned that I’m not getting at all.

  13. John Morales says

    numerobis, he thought he had the sort of consequence-free immunity cops have.
    He was wrong.

    Lol, it was you freaks who wished for a rematch.

    Trolling is not subtle.

  14. fossboxer says

    Is daverytier not referring to the Civil War Collectors Group as the antagonist? I don’t understand the banning, either, although the post is ambiguous enough to argue either way, I suppose.

  15. numerobis says

    To me it’s clear, “you” is Benjamin Marchi and the UDC.

    The Confederates are the ones who want a rematch. And the Confederates are the ones whose enemy (the Union and the slaves) stopped before burning their flags and their manuscripts… and the descendants of the slaves just picked up where they’d left off.

    Reading this the other way makes no sense whatsoever. The Union doesn’t want a rematch of the war it won. And the Confederates aren’t picking up where they’d left off — they left off defeated, and now are in power.

  16. fossboxer says

    Yes, I agree. I meant ambiguous in the way John Morales interpreted it — that daverytier’s “you” refers to us, the participants of this blog, and that he is just trolling us.

  17. says

    I mean you wouldn’t burn Auschwitz with the lessons it teaches about human capacity for evil.

    Wow, way to miss the point. The museums and memorials at the KZs do teach about the crimes committed there. What does a piece fabric teach?
    Exact nothing.
    We did not keep any odd Nazi flag and put it in a museum. In fact, trading Nauk memorabilia is illegal and the US should long have treated the confederate flag the same. That they didn’t is one of the reasons why racial justice is still a long way off.

  18. says

    A while back I got into a pissing contest when I said I burned a Confederate flag 20 years ago. There was a guy who lived in my apartment complex who had a full size battle flag on the ass end of his pickup. Flag pole and every thing. I figured that dam thing was probably going to fly off and smack someone’s windshield and cause an accident if he kept it up, but the local cops didn’t do anything. So I waited for one of those nice misty evenings you get this time of year in Oregon and I burned that flag. The misty evening meant the fire only wiped out the flag made of nylon garbage anyway.

    I stand by my decision, and I’ll fight anyone who says cares.

  19. says

    Is there any evidence that a “terrorist attack” on the United Daughters of the Confederacy headquarters in Richmond even occurred? I can’t find anything about it in the news. The building was on fire at one point, but the fire department says the blaze was “external” and is under control.

  20. chrislawson says

    daverytier finally showed his true colours. thanks for banhammering his racist ass.

  21. chrislawson says


    Google brings up several news reports of the UDC fire being started by protestors. Of course, in the current media climate I will be withholding judgement until proper forensic investigations are completed.

  22. Larry says


    chrislawson, you are such a silly person. In these days of trump/barr jurisprudence, knowing something in your “heart of hearts” or that “many people are saying…” or going viral on Twitter carries sufficient evidentiary weight to indict, convict, and punish without the need for such snowflaky things like “forensic investigations” and “evidence”. It’s a brave, new world, son. Best get comfortable with it.

  23. blf says

    The thing is that while they were historical artifacts, that building is not just a museum

    I seriously doubt it was a “museum” in anything other than the “for-profit only ‘painter of light'” variety; i.e., it seems very unlikely they do or support any sort of research (presumably historical or interpretational, given their area of alleged interest). As noted in both @4 and @35 (and the OP), they™ immediately called the incidence a terrorist attack, which seems both dubious and deliberately inflammatory — and not what a true (research) museum would do.

  24. logicalcat says

    I thought Daverytier was referring to the confederate apologists as the “you”. What with the whole “the south will rise again” thing. They (the confederate idiots) wanted a rematch and are losing that fight.

    My memory sucks so maybe he has a history otherwise.