But we have to imagine, don’t we? It’s the only way we can get change done.
I recently stumbled across a cell phone video made by a student at Parkland as they were fleeing their classroom. The teacher was dead in a pool of blood. Another student was dead. Yet another student was moaning in pain, wounded. They fled through a hallway with more students lying dead. It was so horrific that I could not in good conscience repost it, out of respect for the dead and the families who have lost people they loved. I closed my eyes and shut that window, unwilling to look at it again. It’s no wonder that those students are being so articulate in speaking out against this ongoing nightmare.
We are allowing kids to be slaughtered and traumatized so the gun industry can make more profits and so the NRA can prosper. When will we wake up and shut those ghouls down?
Says. It. All.
Isn’t this a form of child sacrifice?
Students on Meet the Press yesterday. They sound much saner than the rethugs.
And in case people have missed it, this sort of shit is what conservative christians are saying, and it’s unbelievably callous. Beyond callous. I didn’t have adequate words.
And that is precisely wrong; it is the thing that allows us to elide responsibility, pretend that thotsnprayers will help.
What brought the Vietnam war to an end was the images on the TeeVee at dinner time every night, the long lines of flag-draped coffins…there was a reason GW Bush banned photography of the coffins for his war.
We need to rub EVERYONE’S FACE into the blood, the horror, the screams until we can only make it stop by actually doing something about it…
The blood of other people’s children? No, I don’t have the right to do that.
We are allowing kids to be slaughtered and traumatized so the gun industry can make more profits and so the NRA can prosper.
We also need to look at the demographics of gun ownership and recognize that the NRA and its political enablers are playing a long game on class and race – who do all of the white southern men who “need guns to defend themselves” imagine they are defending themselves from?* When you look at statistics like that 3% of the population own 50% of the guns, that says that certain people are willing and ready to spend a gigantic amount of money to “defend themselves” …
I would love to find a breakdown by socioeconomic bracket, race, and geography of the “super collectors” (members of the 3%) I suspect we’d find that they are predominantly white southern men. What are the majority of spree shooters?
I bet that we have an intersectional trifecta of terribleness at the corner of white supremacy, sexism, and socioeconomic disempowerment. It’s the establishment power structure that’s threatened, and they have armies of useful idiots with combat weapons. What could possibly go wronger?
(* I ask “who” because guns don’t kill people, we are told…)
With the push to arm teachers I’m just wondering how long it will be before:
1.) A bad teacher (a certain type of bad teacher will be clamoring to be the one packing) guns down half their class for “disrespect,” spins it as “feeling threatened,” and is rewarded for it.
2.) A student takes away a teacher’s gun and kills several people.
3.) A student is accidentally killed when a teacher’s gun discharges unexpectedly, because extensive firearms training isn’t generally part of a teacher’s training.
4.) The incidence of school shootings continues to rise (because we’re doing everything in our power to facilitate the shooters), so Republicans begin demanding teachers wear full tactical gear and carrying full-auto weapons and anti-personnel grenades.
5.) We take this nightmare to its (il)logical conclusion and install self-destruct buttons in all our schools, so as to deny shooters their victims and spare our children the trauma of having to live with injured bodies and minds.
We’ve made a god of greed, and he demands sacrifice. We’ve made a virtue of cowardice, and call those who refuse to face the world without deadly weapons tucked into their waistbands (real men don’t need no holsters!) heroes. I really don’t like this world anymore.
PZ – even if the parents hadn’t posted that video then I would gladly share it. This ‘let the parents grieve’ and shit like that is just covering up what is happening – fuck politeness this shit needs to stop.
I’m hoping, just hoping, that teenagers may actually stop this.
rietpluim@#10:
I’m hoping, just hoping, that teenagers may actually stop this.
I agree.
But … isn’t it a terrifying observation about How Fucked Up Everything Is that people are looking to traumatized teenagers to be the wise leaders? What does that say about the ‘representatives’ who govern, that we are all coming to hope for teenagers to do a better job!
madtom1999:
No, it is not. PZ mentioned the video, and if someone wants to see it, they can search it out. There’s no need to pander all the people who would want to see it and use it to push their “more guns!” stance. Sparing all those involved from reliving the horror, and deepening fresh wounds is to no point. There’s a place for consideration and compassion. And I’ll add a FUCK YOU for not bothering to even consider all those involved, and being willing to use them for your own end.
I suggest you watch the video linked @ 1, and spread that all over the place, as far as you can. Just as effective, without being a callous asshole.
Marcus:
Teenagers in the counterculture led the way once. They can do it again. What us old farts can do is stand behind them and give them every ounce of support they need. All those kids will be voting soon.
Aaargh:
Should be “Sparing all those involved from reliving the horror, and deepening fresh wounds is the point.”
madtom1999:
I don’t get it. Where’s the cover up? PZ talked about it. He described something to you — he described a cell phone video that he saw, one with a particular sort of content which had a certain effect on him. You are able to find said video for yourself, if you wish. You can use that information or not, or you can wait for some other content producer to feed you all and only the things you wish to consume right now, since your only role in this system is I guess to consume things. But your eyes are evidently not covered. It is not being hidden from you, at least not by anyone here. It is being openly discussed right now, and what it means to people (or what matters about it) is evidently on the table and not off-limits in this thread. If it had not been mentioned, then maybe like me you wouldn’t even know about it, although you may have heard about it elsewhere anyway, since (for better or worse, probably better) pharyngula isn’t the only site on the interwebs. So from where I’m sitting at least, there is no covering up of anything, and it looks and feels a whole lot more like the opposite, like I have been informed, since that is in fact what happened. So I really don’t get what this complaint is supposed to be about.
there are some rural schools where it will actually work quite well to have armed trained teachers http://www.fortmorgantimes.com/fort-morgan-local-news/ci_31353797/school-where-teachers-can-carry-guns
they likely have volunteer firefighters, so why not volunteer security
most other schools it’s a losing proposition. teachers are unable to get reimbursed for school supplies, but now they’re going to buy guns and bullets?
You don’t understand, there HAVE to be more mass slaughters. The gun fondlers can only masturbate to the death tolls and reports of each shooting so many times before they need some new material.
Because “law enforcement” is a thing. There are cops, sheriffs, etc. They’re not being paid to teach, unlike teachers, so they can probably find a way to do the thing they are paid to do, without much trouble.
Seriously? Your big worry is about teachers spending their own money on bullets? (How many fucking bullets are they planning to fire, and why couldn’t the school district/city/county/state/big-gubmint afford that??)
But okay…. I guess I have no clue what fucking planet you must come from, but if they are said to be “volunteers” on your home world, then I would assume this is voluntary. And hey, it was good enough for the ancient Roman military, until they realized it wasn’t, so why not us?
Caine – the parents of the coffins coming back from Vietnam didnt give their permission for them being filmed but in the end that’s what stopped it happening.
You are being overly simplistic about what ended the ‘Nam War. It also included the draft, the misuse of the draft classifications by the rich (Trump, or captain bone spurs; Quayle, who got into the Nat. Guard by a funny means; or even Shrub, who didn’t fulfill his Nat. Guard duty) who supported the war except when their children might be involved, and the protests by those who would be drafted, and could vote.
I agree with PZ and others. YOU want to use he video, YOU find it, and leave us out of it.
@5 I doubt that that would do anything. There are a large group of gun nuts that believe their government faked the deaths of 20 children at Sandy Hook Elementary, than the truth. Show them this video, force them to watch it, and they will start claiming it was faked. They will latch on even the most minor discrepancy in order to generate the most extravagant lie.
I understand and share your anger. But the victims families are probably about to go through hell again as the gun nuts start generating conspiracies. There is no need for us to add to their pain.
vucodlak@8 Arming teachers is too low tech for some. Right wing commentator Wayne Allyn Root figures schools need drones to stop school shootings. All 120 some thousand of them.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2018/02/19/ladies-gentlemen-wayne-allyn-root/
I anticipate a similar denial will happen in this case. Earlier today I did a quickish search for early kooks, but didn’t find any at that time. However, I don’t see why the stormtroopers and the NRA won’t soon be marching to the same It’s All A Fake song, with their bribed stooges in Congress &tc following along behind sucking up more money, cheered on by Faux and Kochroach Bros., UnLimited.
Arm the sixth-grade boys. With a craptonne of twelve-year-old kids with automatic weapons, what could possibly go wrong?
/s, if you are that mentally impaired…
It’s really hard for the usual “don’t politicize it so soon!” assholes to spout their bullshit when it’s the victims doing the politicizing. I know people didn’t think things could change if nothing changed after Newton, but I don’t recall this kind of push back happening so strongly from the victims before. This could be a turning point.
https://twitter.com/Curtissboyy/status/963906892903993345?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
At what point will this country come to it’s senses?
Grasshopper assume such arseholes have interest in Teh Trvth.
● Don’t report on the protests (usual suspects: Faux, and Sinclair).
● .
● .
● Deluded hair furor twitterings distract, deny, and distort.
● Farcebork spreads absurdities, such as .
● Tithetakers bellow
And so on.
@18 consciousness razor
if you read the link, it’s a specific example of a rural school, where the one sheriff could be anywhere in the county and response times could be 30–40 minutes
If we absolutely, positively must have mass shootings, why can’t they happen at NRA headquarters rather than at schools?
Then their county should hire another deputy or two, and/or their town should get a regular police force. They should not arm their fucking teachers.
Alternatively, they may consider relocating some black/brown/suspicious-looking people near the school (or failing that a doughnut shop), so that if those people must be regularly menaced by the sheriffs, the officers will be stationed closer to the site of a potential school shooting or other activity in the county’s only “major” town, in order to ensure they can quickly get back to doing their jobs. I don’t pretend to know what their problems really are, but there are most assuredly solutions to them that have nothing whatsoever to do with teachers carrying weapons.
Wiki says Fort Morgan, CO, population 10,844 (2005), is the county seat of Morgan County, population 28,159 (2010). Their sheriff’s office is located at 801 E Beaver Ave, Fort Morgan, CO 80701 — obvious not 30-40 minutes away from any other part of Fort Morgan. They have a website, where three phone numbers are listed. And google shows me images of a large building, so just from that, I’m sure it’s not all run by Sheriff James E. Crone, all on his lonesome.
But will you look at that? This page on their office structure says they have these positions already: Sheriff, Undersheriff, 3 admin assistants, clerk, 4 sergeants, 27 deputies. In the field division, there is a lieutenant, 2 patrol sergeants, 3 investigators, 10 more deputies, 2 support deputies, and a “vinctim [sic] assistance coordinator.”
So don’t give me that bullshit you regurgitated from that random and uninformative article, because I did read it and don’t need to hear it again. They have no fucking excuse.
*waits for someone to pounce on this to try and score points*
Azkyroth, #31
No harm in using mental impairment as an insult. It’s just sexual orientation, gender, race, financial status that are off limits.
Azkyroth #31
Very Meta.
How many points did you score?
I think this boils to a quite simple, incontrovertible reality:
1. 50% of the population (minus .5 person) has a bigger-than-average dick.
2. 1 person right in the middle has the average sized dick.
3. 50% of the population (minus .that same 5 person) has a smaller-than-average dick.
So the folks with the small dick compensate or substitute by having lots and lots and lots of guns. Shinier, longer, louder, steelier, harder than yours. They are willing to let folks stroll into schools and wipe out a few dozen children. Inconsequential compared to making up for a needle dick.
QED
The velvet revolution that tore down the iron curtain and toppled authoritarian communist regime in CZ was initited by huge student protests which were spurned by small student protest being bloodily quashed.
The People’s Militia and Army finaly have refused to march in arms against children for one time too many. And the revolution started.
So there is hope, children really are the future. They lack experience, but they have passion and strentht.
However in USA I fear the National Guard and Army will be all too eager to mow them down with machine guns if ordered to.
It is not a “right” P.Z. it is a duty. We can pull back and let the other side win, which is just what we continue to do, or we can decide to win and do what is necessary. It is up to you this time.
Hey, archangelospumoni, did you know that around 50% of the population doesn’t have any dick at all? Also, while toxic masculinity is a factor in gun violence, dick size almost certainly isn’t, and blaming it plays into some rather nasty ideas about acceptable bodies.
Cross posted from the Political Madness All the Time thread.
Some of the students who survived the massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School are turning out to be compelling advocates for gun control. How will the rightwing react? The rightwing will target the students with smear campaigns.
Think Progress link
And … there’s more of that utter garbage from the rightwing, including claims that “Student School Massacre Survivors and CBS Reporter Party Like Rock Stars.” No evidence of parties is offered. There are some photos of those brave students smiling. See, they are not crying constantly. That’s a crime.
Gab, the social network that caters to white nationalists; and Reddit forums for Trump supporters, are also repeating the posts that attempt to smear the students.
How long will it be before Limbaugh, Alex Jones and Fox News pick it up? They are already blathering on and on about some conspiracy by the FBI to take down Trump.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/stephaniemcneal/heros-welcome?utm_term=.rpyJlMlkA#.tmrYRdRly
You have to scroll down a bit – then there’s the gut punch.
Cross posted from the Political Madness All the Time thread.
Follow-up to comment 38, above.
Follow-up to comment 441on the Poltical Madness thread.
The vile smear campaign against students from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School made it all the way to CNN. The network gave air time to former Republican Rep. Jack Kingston.
Link
Kingston tweeted:
It’s an aside, but I don’t know why “phones off” isn’t part of the drill. It’s one of the rules we actually have: nobody but the teacher leaves the phone on so there’s no panic or false information spread via phones.
Are there often CCTVs in many schools? If so, would it be possible to provide access to the school’s video network during emergencies like this? Can’t be too hard to make this a mobile app, enabled/disabled by e.g. staff. Providing staff (maybe also students) the location and path of the shooter/fire/etc. in realtime could save lives.
@41
If I’m in imminent risk of dying, there’s not a chance in hell I’m not going to be texting everyone I know and love, rule or not. Even if there was a rule like that, I really doubt a significant amount of people would follow it.
Porivil Sorrens
Just what you need in a situation like this. People Who Know Better™
Now, I fully understand the desire. I’m not just a teacher, I’m a mother, spouse, daughter, sister, friend. But I also know that you would actually actively increase chances of you and your classmates dying.
Two things can increase your chances of survival: accurate knowledge and being calm. What do you think are the chances of those things happening if I am in lock down with 25 7th graders who are all texting or talking on the phone? I need to be the person in charge, because I am the adult in the room, but how much authority do you think I will have if their sobbing parent tells them to do X? And there’s always a parent, usually a father Who Knows Better™
How much chance will I have at calming them down and keeping them quiet hoping that the shooter passes our room thinking it’s an empty classroom when they keep sending pictures of their dead friends on WhatsApp?
What do I do then? Wrangle a phone out of the hands of a screaming child? How do I stop them if their parents have talked them into trying to escape?
So you’d rather die and have texted about it instead of survived? And why do you think you’re allowed to kill me as well?
@44
You miss my point. I’m not saying what I’m doing is rational, I’m saying that I’m very likely to disobey a rule like that if I think my life is about to end, because people in crisis situations, especially children, aren’t rational actors.
You’re the one proposing the rule, you tell me. Even if the majority of kids manage to follow that rule, what are you going to do to the ones that do insist on using their phones?
If I was put in the situation where I literally believed I was minutes away from dying, I would probably rather die and have had a chance to say goodbye to the people I love than die without saying anything.
In regards to the latter point, the person shooting up the school is responsible for the deaths, not the traumatized, panicking people he’s shooting.
I’m not the one proposing the rule. I’m the teacher working under the rule, which has been designed by experts to keep students safe. I’m the teacher whose job it is to do my best to keep my kids safe in the very unlikely case that a shooting happens. I’m the one who will be just in the same situation as the children, probably even more at risk because disgruntled students love to blame their teachers. I will still have to try and keep them as safe as possible.
Yes, I would probably confiscate all their phones before they have a chance to panic and think about it. It’s also the only situation where I am allowed to actually use violence against a kid
People proclaiming loudly that really, safety protocols don’t matter because you don’t want to aren’t helping.
If I saw a chance to abandon my students to save myself and then the shooter found a group of kids who didn’t know what to do and instead of following the safety protocols wandered through the corridors and killed them, how fast do you think would people hold me responsible for their deaths?
And you know that how? So you believe that and then you decide, not just for yourself but for everybody else as well.
Here’s an idea: Tell the people that you love them before you die. Because a traffic accident is still more likely to kill you than a shooter and it won’t give you a few minutes of warning.
@46
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that, even if I knew better, I would be highly unlikely to follow those rules, because I would not be operating as a rational agent.
And what if they refuse? What if multiple students refuse? Are you going to wrestle all of them to the ground for their phones?
Regardless of whether or not people blame you, the murders are still objectively on the hands of the school shooter. He’s the one making the conscious and repeated decision to pull the trigger, not you.
I’ve been in active shooter situations. Me and my family live in gang territory, so there’s a startlingly large amount of shootings and break-ins. My family wasn’t rational when people were almost shooting each other on my front lawn, so I doubt people in a school shooting would be any more calm and rational.
Hence the “If I have reason to believe my life is about to end” part. Can’t exactly have reason to believe my death is imminent if it happens suddenly and randomly.