Once upon a time, back in the days before I was totally locked into biology (and can never get out), I considered going for a history degree instead. All my electives were history classes, I was reading nothing but historical non-fiction for fun, and I might have gone for it except a) I liked biology better, and b) the damned language requirement. I never got far enough into a degree program to really commit to specific subfield, but one thing I was really into was Turkish history. The Turks were remarkable in how quickly they dominated their region, and further, I was very impressed with Ataturk’s secularization of the nation. You will sometimes hear atheists moaning about how Islam never progressed and needs to be more civilized, like Christianity — they’ve never looked at Turkey, apparently, or Iran. Or for that matter, appreciated the barbarism of Christianity.
But anyway, I’ve always wanted to visit Istanbul. I doubt it will ever happen, especially with the sectarian nastiness emerging among some Turks (I wouldn’t be able to shut my face about the nonexistence of any gods, which might get me into trouble), so I felt a twinge of envy at the fact that the creationist frauds at Reason to Believe got invited to a conference in Istanbul by Harun Yahya. That could have been me. All I’d have to do is abandon all pretence of scientific competence, declare my faith in an evil phantasm, and lie about the evidence for a few days.
No, unfortunately, I don’t think I can do that.
So, in addition to missing the historical power of visiting one of the great cities of the world, I also missed out on a conference that proved (their word) some amazing things.
The conference;
– Once again proved that genetics, biology, paleontology, physics, chemistry and astrophysics all answer the question ‘How did life begin?’ with ‘Creation’.
– Hosted leading academicians from the science world -all experts in their respective areas with many academic studies.Some of the topics discussed by the prominent scientists during the conference were as follows:
– The true origin of man
– Why I say ‘God exists’
– Detailed examination and criticism of evolutionary theory
– Origins and creation of the universe
– Fossils: The conclusive evidence of the history of life
The answer to that first point is not “creation”, which is a silly thing to say. Also, the crew at RtB are not leading academicians from the science world
. They are hack theologians.
I haven’t seen any record of the talks given, but some of the photos are revealing. Here’s that evidence against evolutionary theory:
There’s Harun Yahya’s whole schtick. Here’s a fossil; it kind of looks like a modern form to the naive eye, therefore it did not evolve, and all of evolution is false. Never mind that if a time machine dropped you off in the Cretaceous, almost everything would look radically different, because, hey, there were jellyfish in the Cretaceous, just like now. It’s an illogical argument, and it’s also factually false, because the species of jellyfish then were different than the species of jellyfish now.
It’s an indictment of Reasons to Believe, by the way, that they willing participated in this Turkish clown show.
But at least they got to watch the dancing.
New Zealand: Ditching religion and coming out as atheist
From the comments, some of which are quite sad:
I’m very disappointed that the fossil poster fails to show any fishing lures*, feather-duster worms**, or crab spiders**.
*mistaken for real modern insects
**mistaken for modern crinoids
***mistaken for modern spider crabs
If that’s true, why isn’t everyone’s skin falling off all at once? And why isn’t my bathroom wall completely free of that black muck which spreads along the grouting?
You’re right, Reginald. It’s sad. Deeply sad.
You know, skeptic conferences always have to deal with the potential to become repetitive (“homeopathy — still bullshit!”), but at least they can change the questions up from year to year.
Can you imagine the tedious futility of attending a conference that “once again” answers the same question with the same, unenlightening, answer (“goddidit”)? No wonder they made sure to have dancers.
Turkey is not really that bad. Just don’t mention the “Quran trashing” experiment and it should be fine. There are a lot of secular people in Turkey and I’m sure there would be readers who can show you around and whatnot. Turkish Air is also a nice and relatively cheap airline. There are a lot of things to see in Istanbul and lots of different food to try (you can forget about the shitty “Turkish” food you get in US and get the real ones in Turkey).
I took my family to Turkey in 2012 and had a great time. 1 week in Istanbul and 2 weeks in the area around Antalya. The history and sites are amazing, the food is fantastic and the people are generally very friendly and helpful. The Turkish people love children and we lost count of how many times perfect strangers would come up to us on the street to pinch the cheeks of our son and wish us all well. I would highly recommend Turkey to anyone that has the inclination to go.
Seconding lotharloo
Go. I have not been there in years but I’s a fascinating place and has fantastic food. Hagia Sofia and the Blue Mosque alone are worth the airfare. And a bit of civil unrest thins out the tourists so no standing in lines or having a problem getting reservations.
OK, now I would just have to figure out how to pay for it.
I’d probably lean on the side of “Don’t go”, and this is coming from a Turk with family over there.
My last two trips have been pretty wild – there was a beating out on the streets and a lot of protests where riot cops show up, and on my last trip there was a suicide bombing right after I left in a heavily tourist area.
If that’s not a disqualifying factor, go for it, but I’m staying well away from home for now.
If creationism is true, then why don’t we see neanderthal fossils inside dinosaur footprints? Checkmate theology. :P
“Leading academicians”…is that like being an “eminent scientician”?
Slightly off-topic, but the current political situation in Turkey is deeply disturbing. Ataturk’s efforts to change it into a secular country are steadily being reversed, and democracy is on its way out. Over here in The Netherlands, Turkish immigrants who support Gülen (either allegedly or in reality) are being threatened by Erdohan supporters. Erdohan supporters? In The Netherlands? Yes fuck.
The current Turkish government has big dictatorial leanings but they are not stupid. They know that they need tourism so I’m pretty sure it is fine to visit and no more dangerous than visiting many cities in US. If you were not a well-known atheist blogger, I would have even recommended you visit Iran but being internet-famous for being aggressively anti-religion makes that trip not a very good idea.
Have not been to Turkey, but I know that there are many very fine, and very brave, evolutionary biologists there who are fighting the good fight, in a situation that seems to have lately taken a turn for the worse. One of the bravest was the late Professor Aykut Kence of Middle Eastern Technical University, who was a very visible defender of evolutionary biology.
Dammit. I froze my ass off last night. Those “leading academicians” must be right!
If you ever have the money it’s definitely worth going to Turkey and even if Istanbul alone would make it worth the trip, I’d suggest going to some of the ancient greek cities along the Aegean coast for anyone interested in both science and history. Miletus in particular is worth going to and since Pergamon and Troy are short detours on the way there from Istanbul, it should be easy to see all three either via independent traveling or on an organised trip.
@Reginald #1: There’s an interesting answer to the oxygen question and its theme of seemingly insignificant creatures causing catastrophic lasting damage to the atmosphere is particularly relevant these days, but good luck getting the person asking that question to accept it.
I don’t understand why Turkey was ever held up as a pinnacle of Muslim nations. Turkey literally inspired the word genocide from what they did to the Armenians, and while most of Europe has made denying the Holocaust illegal, denying the Armenian genocide is still par the course in Turkey (although Turkish liberals are trying to change that).
And the USA remains one of the few countries too cowardly to call a spade a spade. Ronald Reagan wasn’t afraid to call it genocide, but Barack Obama is. Pretty fucking sickening.
When a creature looks significantly different from its ancestors there’s a Missing Link, so evolution is false. When a creature looks broadly similar it’s still the same, so evolution is false. Convenient!
Because, genocide notwithstanding, Turkey managed to avoid the trend towards Islamic Theocracy and maintain secularism far longer than most other modern nations in the area?
I’m not defending the genocide – my family was affected by it, and my particular branch of the family fled to the US as refugees because of it – but acknowledging the horrors of the genocide doesn’t entail rejecting the achievements.
The US is also responsible for genocide and continuous imperialist wars, but that doesn’t invalidate everything good that has ever come out of the US.
Istanbul is one on the European capitals of Argentinean tango.
They know how to dance and they know how to make it sexy.
It’s a great place full of contrast, culture and *great* food. And traffic jams.
I was especially struck by the fact that many women took back wearing the veil not because of religion, but as a political statement in support of the conservative party.
This while plenty of observant Muslim were (and likely still are) furious at Erdogan, and feminist protesters paraded through the main central street.
This was a few years before the Gezi Park protests.
Erdogan is a megalomaniac authoritarian, he’s nominally fighting ISIS, while actually backing it against the Kurds and he gets a free pass on it because Turkey controls a lot of the flow of migrants to Europe. It’s a completely fucked up situation. =(
I really wouldn’t go now.
gijoel wrote:
you know they found such an instance and religiously [nb] hold it up as proof that TOE if false?
*smirk*
seriously, there really was a case where someone claimed dinosaur footprint fossils had human footprints embedded, and claimed there was evidence that the dinosaur print was placed after the human print, or the two paths of prints crossed, or something along those lines. It took a feww years for it to be debunked as a hoax and misinterpretation of the fossils to promote religion over science.
[rambling, you rang a bell with that snark of yours.]
The Christian Creationist connection with Harun Yahya goes way back. Conferences organised by him in 1998 were attended by Duane Gish and Kenneth Cummings and other charlatans from the Institute for Creation Ratbaggery. They made it plain they contributed in the hopes of leading Harun to the truth of Christianity. Ahmad Dallal who writes extensively on the status of Islam and science describes him as the largest outlet for American Creationist literature outside the USA. Harun Yahya does not enjoy much support in Turkey these days. He sends most of his time broadcasting into Europe where he has a strong following. Muslims are also getting good at taking down him and his acolytes. In a debate a few years ago in Paris a number of them ground one of his henchmen into hamburger by examining his debating methods and knocking down everyone of his arguments before he could even make them. Sadly the video is only available in French. I am told it is very entertaining.
Istanbul street food and the music in the night market. It’s worth it. When I was there, it snowed, which was extra bonus for someone who lives in N. Central Pa – I was terrified at the way the taxsis were wiping around at 25mph on 1/4″ of snow. As it happened, the conference I was there to speak at cancelled (due to the total 1/2″ accumulation) so I got 3 free days to enjoy the food, the art, and the random bits of medieval walls. It’s a gorgeous place and everyone was lovely even though I am obviously an American.
Very stupid. A whole lot of cells require light and give off oxygen. That photosynthesis thing. This is grade school level science.
Without that we wouldn’t have an oxygen atmosphere and either be dead or anaerobes.
You don’t have to be too bright to see this. Look at what blooms in lakes everywhere during the summer. Algae blooms, which are visible, sometimes toxic, and hard to get out of drinking water. Guy must have never seen a pond.
@ 9 Vivec
My last two trips have been pretty wild – there was a beating out on the streets and a lot of protests where riot cops show up
Well an non-USAian, I am not sure I see the difference between these activities in Turkey and a visit to one of several US cities.
I recently had the opportunity to apply for a full-time job in Turkey (hence, a move to Turkey). Ultimately, I turned the opportunity down, as I’m extremely uncomfortable with the direction Erdoğan’s “government” is taking.
Had it not been for the current Erdoğan dictatorship I’m fairly certain I would have applied, traveled to Turkey, and been interviewed. As it currently stands, I am loathe to visit Turkey, albeit I suspect the claims that a “not (previously?) known” anti-Erdoğan / atheist / similar activist probably has little to worry about are true.
The converse, Turkish citizens / residents visiting, emigrating-to, or living here in France (or elsewhere) does not concern me in the slightest. I’m more worried about USAians, and, increasingly, the
BritishEnglish — both showing profound and distributing signs of exceptionally extreme intolerance.There are several US cities I would not recommend as vacation spots either.
@19 Vivec
I wouldn’t say it invalidates everything good to come out of Turkey (like oil wrestling! https://mattsko.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/turkish-oil-wrestling-271.jpg ), but if the USA was held up as the only half-way decent of secular democracies, then that’d make secular democracy look pretty shit.
I spent about a year in Turkey over two stints a quarter century ago (a summer in Istanbul, then ten months in Ankara), so my information is well past its sell-by date. But I did get a chance to travel all around the country, and pretty much everywhere I went there were gobs of history (it seems like every city was the capital of some empire sometime along the way), fantastic food, friendly and hospitable people, and an underlying current of ethnic and political tension.
My favorite city to visit for its combination of historical significance, beauty, and lack of tourism was Amasya (but as I said, that was about 25 years ago).
I’d be very hesitant to visit Turkey today.