If you’re going to argue that Trump is not running a grossly racist campaign, how do you explain this? A Muslim woman was booed, harassed, and thrown out simply for standing up quietly at a Trump rally. She was not their kind of human being, apparently.
Rosa HAMid was just looking for her 15 minutes of fame. She was also there to encourage “IslamoFAUXbia.” With all the homegrown Islamic terrorism going on right now, I find it appalling that she’s a flight attendant! After the stunt Rosa Hamid pulled last night, she should be placed at the top of the NO FLY LIST. She claims her intentions were “to let people see a real Muslim.” (As if she were an animal displayed at a petting zoo.) In reality she was there to protest, stir up trouble and be interviewed by every Trump hating media outlet. Trying her damnedest to damage his poll ratings and reputation. This just gave Donald some more FREE campaign air time. Thanks Rosa. Your deceitful plan back fired. You were escorted out because you were a protester deliberately dressed to instigate trouble. When a woman dressed like you stands up in the middle of a speech, vigilant people are going to respond accordingly. Who’s to say there wasn’t a suicide bomb vest under that stylish hijab. Everyone should becareful in America today. Open Eyes Save Lives. There’s no room for political correctness. We just can afford it and weve lost the priveledge.
Since Islam teaches that a Muslim should lie and break agreements with non Muslims these people can not be trusted. They are the source of support for Islamic terrorists. CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood are radical Islamic sympathizers disguised as players of the “Islamophobia” card. DO NOT LET THESE ORGANIZATIONS FOOL YOU!
“But there are ‘good’ Muslims,” you might say. Yes, these “good” Muslims, like Rosa, are the ones that don’t say anything about the BAD Muslims building pipe bombs in their garages. The “good” Muslims, like Rosa, also secretly find JOY and great PLEASURE in TERRORIST acts. All in the name of Allah. “Allahu Akbar!”
Trump has a reputation that can be damaged?
Fucking Poe’s Law…
Terrorists use violence, threat of violence, creation of instability, economic coercion, and/or incitement to violence in order to create fear within a body politic in an attempt to create political change to the instigators benefit (my working definition).
Do any of the GOP candidates have anything other than fear to peddle? Fear of Muslims. Fear of Hispanics. Fear of communism. Fear of socialism. Fear of someone else getting a fair shake. Fear of other people’s pleasure. Fear of losing privilege. Fear of damn near anything. The only difference between Trump and the other GOP candidates is that Trump understands political terrorism and is willing to go full bore.
Bravo to Rose Hamid for a very brave and positive political act. For (I hope) a majority of USAnians, the vitriol, hatred, and, especially, fear, of what she is (not who she is) will make Trump even more unpalatable. Her brave and positive political act will also, unfortunately, feed even more red meat to the GOP primary voting base because, let’s face it, Trump’s rendition of political terrorism works.
Of course they have: they have anger, revanchism, bloodlust, selfishness, and gallons upon gallons of Lake Wobegon’s waters.
Oh the first comment is by a virulent Islamophobe.
Guess what jerk, being of a specific religion does not bar people from a job or flying, even spewing stuff like you do should not bar people because they are not white enough. Or do you want to go back to the Mayflower time and get executed since you are not a fundamentalist protestant
And for trouble? Yes she did that to make a point. The point being that Trump is a racist Islamophobic blowhard. He could have solved it differently (maybe like Sanders with the Black Lives Matters protesters) but no he absolutely had to prove he’s an asshole by going after her like he did. She already knew that people like you won’t be swayed by anything even if you have to invent loony conspiracy theories to ignore reality. This was aimed at the fence sitters and other low information people who are not as virulently racist Islamophobic as you are. The more those people see what Trump really is the less chance he’ll have at getting that presidency.
And yes she had to show people what a real Muslim looks like since idiots like you are trying to do your damnest to turn the U.S.A. into a 1933-1939 Germany but instead of Jews using Muslims as scapegoats. She gave all the people (like you) who have bought into the caricature of the screaming savage willing to blow themselves up just to get a white christian another point that they have to ignore. Which (even if you deny it) is why you are raging against what she did, she showed that she is just human who happens to be middle age and Muslim, else said it worked.
About that suicide vest? Who is to say you are not wearing one now. You know the only way to be sure that you are not about to blow up non white people is to have you frisked the moment you enter a public space. As you said we can’t be to careful and people who have been raging like you now have been blowing the brains out of Sikhs thinking they were Muslims, Jews thinking they were Muslims, black people since they don’t call them Massa anymore, women since those women would not submit to them. We really can’t be too careful as you said so the best thing would be preventative detention for you so you won’t commit a mass murder.
Then you take out the canard of the Islam teaching to lie. We’ve had that claim here before and it was dissected and shown to be a fabrication by people like you to try bolster the claim that Muslims are savages (not going to bother to dredge it up since all you’ll do is deny, deny and deny some more).
So If we shouldn’t be fooled by these organizations why did you get fooled by the ones putting out this propaganda about Muslims? Oh I know because you are a raging bigot who just got his bigotry confirmed.
That last one is some might special pleading, So there are no ‘good’ Muslims since they don’t spend 24/7/365 apologizing for what others did and because of that they are just as bad? Guess that means we should give you a lethal injection since you didn’t protest against what Timothy McVeigh did. And why haven’t you protested against that idiot who shot those Sikhs because they looked like foreigners? I guess you found joy when the bombs sent by Kaczynski kiled people.
See how easy that you can tar someone?
That said the most vocal reaction to the Paris attack happened to have come from the French Muslim community. But then again that doesn’t fit into your world view so you filter that out even if the ‘news’ channels you watch would have shown that.
2 points about that photo.
1) The only reason we are talking about her and not them (her husband is standing next to her) is because she is a woman and dresses differently then the people attending a Trump rally expect. Which is why Trump focused on her and not them.
2) They are wearing what Trump demanded earlier, visual identification that they are Muslims. I wonder how big the shitstorm would have been if they’d taken a 6 pointed star instead of an 8 pointed.
I thought that it it was obvious that she was making a protest – the pre WWII “Jewish ID” style star, etc. Trump has all manner of protests coming, and deservedly so. But to say the crowd booed a “human being” simply for being a human being is inaccurate. They were responding to a protest with one of their own. Be fair. Maybe all of these fundy-types (Islamic, Xtian, everybody else) ought to be made to live under the rule of The Donald. Let a sort of memetic selection work it out. But always taking the “anti-Christian” side by default sort of makes your blog look like it is unaware of the even worse religious conditions that the woman in the picture represents.
“The woman was ‘protesting’ in support of horrible conditions for all women. Her anti-feminism was booed by the progressive Trump supporters.” Read it like that? ;)
Because, as we know, all muslims support every part of their religion and don’t compartmentalize it the same way literally every other religious group does in a modern society.
You get that there are muslim feminists, right? Alternatively, there’s people like my family, who while not religious, do tend to keep a lot of muslim holidays and traditions because it’s part of our cultural heritage.
Luigi Valentino @ 1:
Yes, so? I have a version of this necklace, which says This is what an atheist looks like. Why? Because where I live, there aren’t many of us, and very few are out. There’s another reason, too – a lot of people have funny ideas about atheists, think we’re all immoral monsters who would do evil at the drop of nothing. It helps to shake up people’s preconceptions now and then.
I applaud Rose Hamid, she’s got a lot of courage, and the conviction to follow. Ms. Hamid didn’t do one damn thing wrong. All the bigots surrounding her however…
Wow, David Gibson. Really? You think they were protesting how Islam treats women? No. They have been convinced that all Muslims are terrorists (see comment 1); and Trump, like any ‘good’ authoritarian leader, knows that fomenting fear leads to the strongest, most virulent support from easily-led people who crave to be told what to do and whom to hate. And Trump is such a narcissistic megalomaniac that he is fine with the consequences, as long as it gets him the attention he loves to bask in.
David Gibson:
My, my. Be careful reaching so very far, you’ll fall a long way down. I suppose I should thank you though, for letting me know that open harassment is now known as a protest of their own. Yes indeed, the fair balance there is just so darned obvious!
*This post contains a quantity of sarcasm, oh my yes.
There is quite a lot of violence around Trump rallies. A lot of people have been roughed up and forcibly removed, for not doing much of anything.
Trump is a fascist and this is what the SA, the Brownshirts used to do. I wouldn’t be surprised if his goon squad shows up one day with brown uniforms, with fake gold T symbols, the uniforms being made of course in,…China.
There was violence at GOP rallies in the last election too. No one was killed but a few situations came close.
David Gibson @ 8:
You know, it’s generally a good thing to know about something before you decide to weigh in with an opinion. Trump has stated, over and over and over and over and over and fucking overoverover, that he is in favour of all Muslim people to have to wear some sort of identifier, just in case they are terrorists, y’know. (Insert near-fatal eyeroll here). Ms. Hamid was simply doing what Trump thinks is good fuckin’ idea, and look what happened.
Hmm, better not engage Luigi Valentino and just ban his worthless ass: he is being showing up on blogs everywhere, stinking up the place, and showing nothing more then that he is a bigoted muslim hater, who doesn’t even understand the US constitution and think it is not unconstitutional to ban Islam.
Not worth anyone’s time or effort. Wilfully ignorant about, well, everything. Or in other words, a typical Trump supporter.
Luigi Valentino@1 and David Gibson@8: You both forgot the “sieg hiel!” Without them, teh trum-prat’s “campagin” will not be sending you the payments.
“You do know Muslim feminists exist…?” I was asked. Yes. And they all dress Salafi style as this woman was dressed. No wait! They don’t. Not when in the West. “Back home” in the East, many worked under the terrible conditions they were trying to change and so they “covered up.” But go through a list of Muslim feminists and see how they dress. AND – let’s all remember that controlling a woman’s apparel and when and how she can appear in public is the goal of the Salafi-style movement. Don’t let your hate of the silly “Trumpets” blind you to the real threats here. And let’s not pretend to be so naive when it comes to political theater. And “theater” is exactly what happened here. Costumes and all. Someone tried to do a “protest” – it got a roar from the crowd. Meanwhile 60% – 70% of Republicans polled actually OPPOSE Trump.
For an example… https://musfem.wordpress.com/famous-muslim-feminists/
It’s not important, but why the fuck was “Rocket Man” playing at the Trump rally? I can’t imagine Elton John approved it, but maybe he doesn’t own the rights.
David Gibson, #8:
Do you really not understand what “fair” means?
What?
You think Trump and his dumbfuck supporters constitute the Christian side? And we’re doing what here…? Never mind.
It’s amazing that you can manage to “think” that this isn’t one of those times when we ought to take the anti- whatever-the-fuck-this-is side. Who knows what they’d have to be like, before you wouldn’t complain about people opposing their hate/stupidity.
“You’re a bullshitter, and that’s some bullshit.” Read it like that.
Hold on, I was still in the middle of counting up all of the threats of a fucker like Trump becoming president. But you’re saying they’re not real….
Luigi Valentino: Trump fans can just fuck right off. Bye.
Plenty of my muslim friends are active LGBT activists and wear the same outfits that Ms. Hamid does. But I guess Hijab-wearing muslim lesbians in a major californian college aren’t western or progressive enough to count :^)
Perhaps she’s taking a cue from Erdem Gündüz “Standing Man” protest in Ankara.
Well, it depends: how pale is their skin? If they were to wear a cross, would they be able to pass for Bon Chic Bon Genre white bouregoises?
/snark
Dahlia Mogahed, Director at Institute of Social Policy, a muslim woman, was on Daily Show last night. Representing Muslim people. When asked about the hajib she wears, she replied * that she wore it because it was her choice to wear it, not because she was being forced to wear it. She pointed out that to assume wearing it is a form of “protest” or a way to deny someone of women’s form, is to assume that women belong to men, instead of women being themselves for themselves. I too see that it is often an issue that women in Middle East are required to wear hajibs, where the men in power declare that women are property; yet to project that onto women who chose the hajib themselves is a form of bigotry.
*after a little snark, that she wore it to never have a “bad hair day”, *chuckle*
——————————————————————————————————————-
1) Standing silently, costumed as Trampster requested previously, publicly, repeatedly, in his hyuuuge voice, was trying to exemplify what Trumpy is asking for. If doing so out of protest, why the violent reactions?
2) To verbal and physically harass her for doing so is NOT protest, but rather assault.
-=- Gibson needs to study his word choices.
Dahlia Mogahed, Director at Institute of Social Policy, a muslim woman, was on Daily Show last night. Representing Muslim people. When asked about the hajib she wears, she replied * that she wore it because it was her choice to wear it, not because she was being forced to wear it. She pointed out that to assume wearing it is a form of “protest” or a way to deny someone of women’s form, is to assume that women belong to men, instead of women being themselves for themselves. I too see that it is often an issue that women in Middle East are required to wear hajibs, where the men in power declare that women are property; yet to project that onto women who chose the hajib themselves is a form of bigotry.
*after a little snark, that she wore it to never have a “bad hair day”, *chuckle*
——————————————————————————————————————-
1) Standing silently, costumed as Trampster requested previously, publicly, repeatedly, in his hyuuuge voice, was trying to exemplify what Trumpy is asking for. If doing so out of protest, why the violent reactions?
2) To verbal and physically harass her for doing so is NOT protest, but rather assault.
-=- Gibson needs to study his word choices.
Hey PZ, that was a little harsh. I’m sure you’d welcome tRump fans here, if they were civil and displayed a glimmer of intelligent commentary…
Sorry, I couldn’t type that with a straight face. If there’s one thing tRump supporters have shown consistently, it’s than not a single goddamn one of them has two fucking brain cells to rub together.
@Who Cares: One clarification on your comment on the photo. The man standing with Rose Hamid is not her husband. His name is Marty Rosenbluth, and he’s just a good person. (I know him.)
Dahlia Mogahed, Director at Institute of Social Policy, a muslim woman, was on Daily Show last night. Representing Muslim people. When asked about the hajib she wears, she replied * that she wore it because it was her choice to wear it, not because she was being forced to wear it. She pointed out that to assume wearing it is a form of “protest” or a way to deny someone of women’s form, is to assume that women belong to men, instead of women being themselves for themselves. I too see that it is often an issue that women in Middle East are required to wear hajibs, where the men in power declare that women are property; yet to project that onto women who chose the hajib themselves is a form of bigotry.
*after a little snark, that she wore it to never have a “bad hair day”, *chuckle*
——————————————————————————————————————-
1) Standing silently, costumed as Trampster requested previously, publicly, repeatedly, in his hyuuuge voice, was trying to exemplify what Trumpy is asking for. If doing so out of protest, why the violent reactions?
2) To verbal and physically harass her for doing so is NOT protest, but rather assault.
-=- Gibson needs to study his word choices.
[deleted]
[The sincerity of “Activist Mike’s” previous comments stand exposed — just another slymepitter. Banned. All comments deleted. Fucking asshole. –pzm]
Activist Mike, @ 26:
Well, I certainly had your number, didn’t I? Thanks for outing yourself for the loathsome ass you are.
Dahlia Mogahed, Director at Institute of Social Policy, a muslim woman, was on Daily Show last night. Representing Muslim people. When asked about the hajib she wears, she replied * that she wore it because it was her choice to wear it, not because she was being forced to wear it. She pointed out that to assume wearing it is a form of “protest” or a way to deny someone of women’s form, is to assume that women belong to men, instead of women being themselves for themselves. I too see that it is often an issue that women in Middle East are required to wear hajibs, where the men in power declare that women are property; yet to project that onto women who chose the hajib themselves is a form of bigotry.
*after a little snark, that she wore it to never have a “bad hair day”, *chuckle*
——————————————————————————————————————-
1) Standing silently, costumed as Trampster requested previously, publicly, repeatedly, in his hyuuuge voice, was trying to exemplify what Trumpy is asking for. If doing so out of protest, why the violent reactions?
2) To verbal and physically harass her for doing so is NOT protest, but rather assault.
-=- Gibson needs to study his word choices.
Dahlia Mogahed, Director at Institute of Social Policy, a muslim woman, was on Daily Show last night. Representing Muslim people. When asked about the hajib she wears, she replied * that she wore it because it was her choice to wear it, not because she was being forced to wear it. She pointed out that to assume wearing it is a form of “protest” or a way to deny someone of women’s form, is to assume that women belong to men, instead of women being themselves for themselves. I too see that it is often an issue that women in Middle East are required to wear hajibs, where the men in power declare that women are property; yet to project that onto women who chose the hajib themselves is a form of bigotry.
*after a little snark, that she wore it to never have a “bad hair day”, *chuckle*
——————————————————————————————————————-
1) Standing silently, costumed as Trampster requested previously, publicly, repeatedly, in his hyuuuge voice, was trying to exemplify what Trumpy is asking for. If doing so out of protest, why the violent reactions?
2) To verbal and physically harass her for doing so is NOT protest, but rather assault.
-=- Gibson needs to study his word choices.
@#1 Luigi Valentino:
Wow, and she accomplished all that by merely existing. No wonder she frightens you.
It’s always amusing to see certain people bring up feminism when they’re talking about Muslims, because you know they’re the same people who freak out when the term rape culture is brought up, or pay equality, or a bunch of other issues that are a part of modern feminist debate.
Bigotry is, at its very root, about making the desire to harm others appear righteous. Bigots aping feminist jargon to disguise their intent to treat refugees & immigrants like shit is a natural outcome: as feminism goals becomes mainstream, bigots start to pretend to be feminists as part of their “pretend to be virtuous so the rubes don’t realize we’re out to get them” shtick.
timgueguen ,
Must be the same brand of people who suddenly learned what sexual harassment and sexual assault look like, after Köln. (of course, they’ll unlearn it once they can’t use it to fuel anti-immigrant rethoric any more)
The cup runneth over with white whine.
By simply putting a human face on Trumps bigotry and stupidity she so outraged his supporters they couldn’t bear to look at her. There are so many archetypes stacked on that I think I’ll option the story to Warner Brothers.
First time I’ve seen this “home of the brave” to be true…
@1, the arse
Aah, hypotheticals. Who’s to say that Teh Trumprat’s supporters weren’t packing heat ready to murder the local immigrant population, eh? Better to lock them up, just in case.
Mrs Hamid managed to bring Muslims protesting peacefully to the attention of the media. Well done.
Can’t help but think how easy was to do that…
LOOK WHAT SHE MADE ME DO!
;)
Yeah, my first reaction to a suspected suicide bomber would be to wait until they are in a crowded space then rough them up and drag them out when they stand up. And you know they are the bomber because the sneak around in their cultural/religious dress that totally makes them invisible in your highly orthogonal cultural milieu.
My eyes rolled right out of my skull. Can anyone help me find them?
It was a Trump rally; her very garbed presence there was intentionally provocative. And successful!
Luigi @1 is obviously “bigoted muslim hater”, as zenlike put it @15, but that her presence there was theater is also obvious.
When I read of this event, I realized that she had made her point without uttering a word. Just through the reactions of Trump and his fans, she exposed just what miserable excuses for humans they really are.
apologies for the triple post. the 1st time refused to appear after several refresh attempts. same after the second posting. refresh failed to reveal the [post comment] button had succeeded. I guess one should always assume it worked and simply wait a bit longer.
David Gibson @8:
Yeah…except Trump is sexist and his supporters aren’t progressive. So, no.
David Gibson @17:
And? What? Because they don’t discard all of their cultural/religious traditions, they must therefor not be serious in discarding anything at all? Is that what you’re trying to get at here? And the “real” Muslim feminists would? So tell us again who is putting the requirements on what women must (or must not) wear? It looks to actually be you with your “real Muslim feminists don’t dress Salafi style” attitude.
Why is that? Because he’s too progressive for them?!? Ridiculous.
Compared to Trump, Barry Goldwater would look progressive.
Luigi’s post resembles most the kinds of things people were publishing in right wing europe about Jews in the 30s.
not at all kidding.
looks exactly the same. uses the same language even.
IIRC, wasn’t Goldwater actually rejected by his own party because he was too conservative?
if so, the irony is delicious.
*runs to check*
..yup. Many republican voters at the time refused to support Goldwater because he was too conservative.
the irony… it burns.
more likely they were all at the Trump rally just so they could meet up afterwards and decide which Federal Wildlife Reserve to occupy next.
so, you don’t take her at her own word that she was there as a visible presence of a peaceful muslim?
you think she’s lying…
I like you less and less as the years go by, I have noticed.
Ichthyic:
Overton Window on Rails.
that much I would agree with. that’s pretty much exactly what was going on.
I love that people who think that racial profiling and jamming a wrench into the infrastructure of modern life think that someone standing quietly at a rally is abusive and mean.
Bully’s rule number one: Anyone who doesn’t abjectly grovel at my feet is assailing me
Rose Hamid isn’t cravenly kowtowing to Trump and his supporters, therefore she’s the assailant.
I know, I know, that “logic” is rather counterintuitive.
Exactly. And then people actually blame HER for it!
Who is Rosa Hamid? Here is her background http://shoebat.com/2016/01/09/90806/
davidmartindale @ 59:
Shoebat is a known liar and fantasist. Hardly any sort of a source at all, let alone a valid one. He’s a fanatical bigot, and I rather expect most people who take him seriously are the same.
Caine wrote:
Not to mention violent. Theodore Shoebat (one of the writers for the site and son of Walid Shoebat) wants to see feminists burnt alive, have yoga practitioners arrested and India invaded to eradicate the Hindu religion, and put Muslims and gays to death. I’m not sure I’d ever believe a word anyone from that family says.
ck @ 61, I knew about the “put those gays to death”, but not the rest. Scary people, to say the least.
@1
Considering the circumstances, that’s fucking hilarious. If anyone is thriving on fame it’s nazi Trump.
Holy crap, someone linked to a Shoebat post pulling all sorts of conspiracy links out of his ass and expects us to take that seriously?!?! Oh, poor naive davidmartindale. Bless your soul.
My favorite part was when the “Trumpets” haters angrily and viciously defended the actions of a Walid Shoebat supporter. You attack people like the “Trumpets” while defending Shoebat’s racist, misogynistic publicity stunts. You brainiacs probably went nuts shouting support for “Ahmed’s Improvised Timing Device.” He was invited to the WH by dangerous idiots (like some of you) but forbidden to bring his “clock”. Why couldn’t he bring the “clock” into the WH as promised? Why? No answer from any of you. And you still don’t feel schtoopid for that – so you curse a bunch of rednecks who DID NOT fall for Ahmed’s Salafist stunt and praise a looney tune like Shoebat. Do any of you even remember what a “Liberal Society” looks like?
PZ posted before we knew of the Shoebat connection. But now that we do, can the snide commentators learn their lesson and wise up? Otherwise we all just might get stuck with a Trump for President – or worse. It’s just like “Ahmed’s Clock” all over again. Let’s learn from these publicity stunts so we don’t keep falling for them. And try to win a “Trumpet” next time. Win them over. You CAN do it. I have won many fundy types over the years. And I never did it by resorting to my own natural smart-@ss disposition. I just had to be persuasive about the fossil record. Their ideas deserve scorn. But we could actually use the support of most of them.
Do you need a tissue to wipe away that spittle, David Gibson? You’ve started making even less sense. Other than your fellow David linking to his site, who here is defending Shoebat?
David Gibson, #65
Hahaha.
Oh boy, David Gibson, your stream of conscious rant at 65 does not help your credibility. Can you provide an Engslish translations, please?
I’m still cracking up at “Ahmed’s Salafist stunt”.
You need to include more scary Mooslem words into your sentence-generating algorithm. Throw a couple of “taqiyyas” and “infidels” in there too.
David Gibson, how about you pick a name and stick with it, okay? Posting under multiple nyms will be taken for sockpuppeting, and that’s a bannable offense. As for the rest of your rabid screed, sorry, but this is not a hate removal service. You need to actually use your brain to get rid of all that hate. Good luck.
Saad, why did Ahmed the “clock builder” disassemble a working clock and mount its circuit board and LED panel inside of an easily disguised case and then set the alarm to go off in the middle of class? He celebrated by visiting his father’s friend, the genocidal war criminal and Sudan’s President, Omar al-Bashir? Yes, Salafist.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/10/17/04/2D6B62C500000578-0-image-a-63_1445051135350.jpg
David Gibson:
No, no, Cupcake. It was a clock. You know, those things that sometimes tick and aren’t dangerous at all. As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. This has been your moment of free analysis.
You must have trouble reading. Here’s your answer: secret service, paranoia, and bigots are everywhere. This has been easy answers to stupid questions.
Sweetpea, I’m no part of your “we”. Also, there is no Shoebat connection. Perhaps your tinfoil cap has a tear or something. You may want to check.
Caine – I have always posted under the same name using my Google+ account (Android phone). PZ probably has some admin app that allows him to verify IP addys. Ask him.
Some of the stuff you’ve argued with here I also find repugnant (“ALL Muslims do this or that… & etc.). But you’re being a patsy for some very dangerous people. Try doing Rosa’s stunt wearing a Creed t-shirt at a rally in Lahore, Riyadh, Raqqa or Tehran. Try it. Wear a bright “The Sun Does NOT Rise from a Muddy Spring – Go Pharyngula!!!” t-shirt to a “creation” seminar in Ankara or Cairo. You’ve got guts. Go for it.
That Ahmed’s clock (yes, clock!) was reassembled is meaningless.
A fair amount of my income is from art, and I got started by tracing other people’s art. Most preteen artists do that. Ahmed did the engineering equivalent, nothing more.
Also, still waiting for you to acknowledge my point about muslim feminists that do indeed wear their cultural garb.
Caine – “It was a clock.”
No. Ahmed DISASSEMBLED a working clock, disguised it and set the alarm to go off in the middle of class. My question: Why did he do that? The President on Twitter (though probably an aide) invited Ahmed to bring his device to the WH. But ultimately, he was forbidden for security reasons. The President could have, at any time, demanded that Ahmed be allowed to bring his “innocent” device. But after appearing with Sudan’s butcher Bashir, even the President and his bigoted and naive aides had to back away from the kid and his family. Ahmed’s family and friends (his father is a close enough friend of the dictator to be chosen to “run against” the Supreme Ruler twice) have killed too many Christians and Animists. And you support this stunt, why? Do you hate Animists?
Sorry for the triple post, but I’ve worn full punk gear and band shirts with satanic imagery in Istanbul, and had open antitheistic discussions with my family while drinking sharbat next to the blue mosque. I’m not sure Turkey is quite the country you think it is.
Vivec – Thanks. I wasn’t ignoring you. How the clock was REASSEMBLED would be MEANINGLESS if not for the fact that it was disguised, stuffed in a backpack and set to go off in the middle of class. Why was it set to go off in the middle of class. Some here act like it was simply an oversight or accident. But how do you ACCIDENTLY mount a circuit board and LED display and then ACCIDENTLY set the alarm for the middle of an English class? And why does the 14 year old family friend of a world-class genocidal dictator do this?
He does it because he’s interested in engineering, the same reason I traced anime stills and claimed it was my art in school.
… and yes, many Muslim feminists wear the “traditional garb” – inside of their native milieu. Go to school (university) with some (I did during the 1979-1981 hostage crisis with Iran). They were vocal, often angry and understandably, very defensive about the current political situation. Their pictures from Iran showed them and family in “Western” style garb, pre-Revolution. After the revolution, the pictures from home changed. So why do they dress “traditionally”? Mainly, I suppose, to avoid a gang rape and then criminal charges for “fornication” with the rapists. Don’t ignore the HUGE changes Muslim fundamentalism has brought to the region and the world. And the others shouldn’t defend Muslim fundamentalism just because of their dislike of the more familiar Xtian variety. Let’s speak out against ALL forms of this “mental disease” (fundamentalism).
http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article50031
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/sep/17/pakistan.theobserver
David Gibson
I take it that you were never a 14-year-old boy.
Oh fuck. He’s a full-on Ahmed conspiracist. I’m surprised he doesn’t insist on referring to him as “Clock Boy” instead of by name.
Also…
I don’t have enough faces to match up with palms. I really want to address how wrong this is, but I honestly don’t know where to start. It’s just that mind-fuckingly wrong.
“He does it because he’s interested in engineering, the same reason I traced anime stills and claimed it was my art in school.”
Why did his father’s close friend kill over 10,000 Christians? Why did Ahmed happily visit said genocidal dictator as the very first part of his “victory tour”?
Did you celebrate the Bataan Death March with your anime tracings? Or is that question insulting to you? I imagine it’s insulting, so I apologize for that. But, that’s exactly what Ahmed did. And he deliberately set the alarm to go off in the middle of an English class. After that, he met happily with Bashir, the Butcher of Sudan.
Reread my post irt muslim feminists before telling me to go to university with them. I’m in about ad liberal a state as possible, in a university known for being liberal. Said women are not only hijab-wearing actively-practicing muslims, but out and open leabians in leabian relationships.
If they’re just wearing their cultural garb to avoid rape or abuse, why the fuck would they do it while making out with each other? You’d think that’d rankle a few nerves, right?
My touchscreen sucks. Leabian = lesbian
Tabby – “I don’t have enough faces to match up with palms. I really want to address how wrong this is, but I honestly don’t know where to start. It’s just that mind-fuckingly wrong.”
It would be very easy to prove me wrong. Make up the “… Muddy Spring. Go Pharyngula!!!” t-shirt and travel to the feminist conference linked below. Go for it. It would prove me to be so, so very wrong. And I would say, “Tabby, you were right all along!” I would say that. Now wear the t-shirt to one of these conferences. You’ve got the guts! I believe in you. :)
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/06/28/saudi-arabian-womens-conference-picture_n_3515062.html
Clocks have alarms that tend to go off. That his clock went off in school is absolutely trivial.
Vivec – I just figured you were referring to lesbians who are particularly attracted to actor, singer, comedian, and proudly butch Lea DeLaria.
The irony is strong in this one…
David, I already countered your stupid t-shirt point. I’ve worn band shirts that say shit like “satan is lord” with pentagrams in Istanbul before.
David @87, no, because you don’t get how wrong the whole comparison is, or understand where your utter wrongness lies. That you even made that comparison is making my brain bleed.
Tabby @ 83:
Yes. Yes, it is. I doubt Mr. Gibson has even a glimmer of the fact that he is the terrifying person, not a 14 year old boy, who behaved like every other 14 year old boy on the planet, or a woman who made one helluva point by simply existing. Fanatical bigots who are in love with every conspiracy theory they come across have a tendency to easily cross the line into terrorism, because they’re doing it for the right reasons. Yep.
Tabby Lavalamp:
Works for me. She’s delicious. To say the very least.
Vivec – “Said women are not only hijab-wearing actively-practicing muslims, but out and open lesbians in lesbian relationships.”
We do have an age gap here – you and me. My university time was “Iranian Hostage Crisis” time. And I watched a serious change take place among the people I knew from that region and within the region itself.
Yours is post-Iranian revolution time and after the subsequent reactionary “conservative” Sunni led Salfist expansion. The playing field has changed. I watched it change. In the 70s and 80s I could have visited Palmyra and other sites without hassles or fear, but never did. Now, I never will, precisely because times have changed.
Are said lesbians “out” when they visit Muslim countries? Attend a prayer service with them. From the separate men’s prayer area, watch as your friends stand up over in the segregated women’s area and reveal their “… the Sun Does NOT Rise From a Muddy Spring! Go Pharyngula!!!” t-shirt. Do this in a Muslim milieu, not a “Christian” or American secularist setting.
Frankly, your friends’ lives are in danger. And they may act “out” and everything in front of the Americans on campus, but if they are not discrete and were to ever “protest” like Rose Hamid did, they would be dead. And you know this, too. They know this. So what’s the argument? As long as they’re in the West, they’re relatively safe. But the more extremists we let in, and the more we create ourselves, the more dangerous America will become for your lesbian Muslim friends. The more America will become like Lahore, Raqqa, Riyadh and other hell-holes.
Caine – it’s easy to prove me wrong. Just get the “Pharyngula t-shirt” about how “The Sun Does NOT Rise from a Muddy Spring! Go Pharyngula!!!” Wear this to a “conservative” mosque or masjid and do a little bit of anti-fundy protesting. Go for it. And if you’ve got the “guts” Rose has, travel and do this in Abu Dhabi or Islamabad.
I promise to watch the news reports on CNN of how your body was treated as we all try and guess at what point you died. Was it the impromptu stoning, the jambiya or the brutal dismemberment? But, hey! Check out Caine’s gutsy anti-fundy protest.
Vivec – When were you there? And skip the tourist areas and visit where the people live. Go into a mosque (one that’s being used as such and not some medieval tourist attraction), or for a better example: in Turkey, go to an AK political rally (the current ruling party). They have officially left sharia behind, but promote the “social conservative” angle. Leave your crazy youthful Western t-shirts behind (their version of a redneck wouldn’t know what it says anyhoo…) and wear one that denounces the “… Muddy Spring.” Denounce Muslim fundamentalism at an AK rally in Ankara and you will be killed. On the street.
1. Try again. Our school’s prayer area isn’t segregated abd I’ve frequently attended with them.
2. …Try again. They’ve participated in various protests and even given speeches during our LGBT center’s coming out week barbecue.
3. TRY AGAIN. They’re out to everyone. Including their families.
This is going to be a bit disjointed, probably, but I might as well try.
David, LGBT people and atheists, not to mention, for example, abortion providers, are already in danger in the US, from fundies, from right wingers, from a lot of people. “Fundie” meant Christian in the US before it started being applied to followers of Islam, and it still does.
All Rose Hamid did was peacefully protest at a public political rally, as is her first amendment right. If she’s an example of an American, I’d be proud to stand with her.
Or, what everybody else has said better and over and over.
And also too, did someone open a squirrel cache? The nuts are really coming out of the woodwork.
There is a war going on within Islam right now. And there are many Muslims who are “secularized” enough that they fit right in even on these pages. They need our support. Not against the “Trumpets” (not yet anyway, not if the majority of the GOP gets its act together) – but they need our support against the people who would hunt them down and kill them. They need to be protected from their fellow Muslims. For evidence of this, please see President Obama’s actions on this matter. Denounce the real problem – Fundamentalism, of ALL kinds. Don’t embrace and/or support Islamic fundamentalism just because it pisses off the “pastor” you had when you were a kid or the TV preacher who annoys you when you’re channel surfing. Denounce ALL forms of Fundamentalism. imho.
I’ve gone every summer for most of my life. I was there when they were watergunning – yes, nonlethally – student protesters two years ago.
The blue mosque is an actual active use mosque. What more, I go there during Ramadan. If you think no one in istanbul is capable of reading english or telling what a pentagram is, you’re just wrong and stupid.
I’m continually amused by your assertion that you know life in turkey more than a turkish child of turkish immigrants with family we visit in Gazaintep every year.
Mind-fuckingly wrong.
Vivec – DO NOT TRY…
“Inside a Muslim milieu…” I said. At an “AK Rally in Ankara”, I said. And visit a different mosque or “prayer area.” One not run by the school’s rules. Get out of your shell. See the dangerous world. But be careful.
On my last visit to the Eiffel Tower I was guarded by three-man rifle squads in full military kit. I was wearing the shirt I have on now, yet I needed that kind of protection at the Louvre, the Eiffel Tower and the Place de la Concorde because Donald Trump is a bad, bad man. Right? Me. I had a three man French rifle squad with fully automatic weapons and backed up by armored vehicles protecting me from Muslim fundamentalists. I wondered if it wasn’t a bit much – and then those Americans fought the Muslim rifleman on the very same train I had ridden to get to Brussels. After that, well… we saw how even such an armed presence doesn’t stop a determined terrorist like Mr. Trump. It was Trump who was behind the Nov. 13 attacks in Paris, wasn’t it?
And thus the conversation dissolves into the ramblings of a conspiracy minded idiot selectively answering questions when it fits you.
Might I suggest infowars instead of pharyngula? I’m sure Alex Jones’ viewership would be far more amenable to your bullshit.
In summation: You dudes ain’t got the “guts” of Rose Hamid. You’re too chicken to do what she did. You quickly visit a tourist area dressed like a Western tourist and you think you know the war that is going on within Islam? And then you root for the bad guys.
It would be very easy to prove me wrong: Visit one of the venues I’ve linked (the “women’s conference” in Riyadh, the AK Rally in Ankara, etc.) wearing the t-shirt that reads, “The Sun Does NOT Rise from a Muddy Spring! Go Pharyngula!!!” Do that. All of our posts are meaningless without action. Back up your angry rhetoric. Show that idiot Trump how wrong he is. And make me shut up! All of this can be easily accomplished: If only you had the guts.
RIP Irony
Vivec – “I’ve gone every summer for most of my life. I was there when they were watergunning – yes, nonlethally – student protesters two years ago. …”
I like you, Vivec. You sound like you’ve been around. And my own trips haven’t taken me into the “Balkan” areas, including “Eastern Thrace.” I envy you a bit. From where I have been and what I have seen: The guys with the water cannons are trying to walk a fine line between Turkey’s “traditional” (since post WWI at least) secularism and the rising tide of Islamic fanaticism. They’ll blast anybody in the name of “Stability.”
But there is still that rising tide. I was in Western and Central Europe (mostly in Prague) this past April and May. We were at Dachau when Merkel made her speech there on the anniversary of the camp’s liberation. Germany had become filthy, compared to even the 80s. Italy, France and Belgium were armed camps. APCs guarded the Coliseum in Rome. I’ve already mentioned the rifle squads. Is all of this because of The Donald and his over-the-top rhetoric? Or should we be concerned about something else?
And there we have it. David is showing his full-on bigotry.
Oops! I guess that’s me supporting fundamentalist Islam.
Tabby – “RIP Irony”
Just because you’re hissing at the cat, it doesn’t mean that I am. I actually do this for fun. But I tell you what – privately send me your shipping address and I will send you a “The Sun Does NOT Rise from a Muddy Spring! Go Pharyngula!!!” if you post a pic (or I see one on the news) of YOU in a Muslim country at either a religious gathering or some sort of “pro-Islamist” or “pro-sharia” rally wearing this t-shirt. let me know if you have Rose hamid’s “guts.”
Hamid went into the Trump rally knowing that her life was in NO danger at all. I’m challenging you to visit her “turf” and try the same stunt. Or try this: Make a “clock” just like Ahmed’s and take it through airport security.
You guys ain’t got the guts. You’re all talk – and the talk sounds a lot like the nonsense I hear from YECs. A lot of empty boasts and anecdotes. No evidence. Get the t-shirt and shut me up. I dare you.
For under $20 you can make a clock just like Ahmed’s and mail it to the White House. It’s simple. Post some pics. Or we can wait and see your pic on the news.
Guts. You don’t have guts.
So some people in other countries are even more repressive, authoritarian and violent than your average Trump supporter….which is a point….how? Oesophagal cancer is “worse” than testicular cancer, so i guess i should just ignore that lump on my left ball.
“The Sun Does NOT Rise from a Muddy Spring! Go Pharyngula!!!”
“The Sun Does NOT Rise from a Muddy Spring! Go Pharyngula!!!”
“The Sun Does NOT Rise from a Muddy Spring! Go Pharyngula!!!”
“The Sun Does NOT Rise from a Muddy Spring! Go Pharyngula!!!”
“The Sun Does NOT Rise from a Muddy Spring! Go Pharyngula!!!”
“The Sun Does NOT Rise from a Muddy Spring! Go Pharyngula!!!”
The t-shirt HAS to say that! There HAS to be a picture! “Guts!” BLARGLE!
Dreaming of an Atheistic Newtopia, it’s all just “Dear Muslima” in a much more frothing manner. Rose Hamid wasn’t going to be stoned to death, so what she did took no guts at all dontchaknow.
As if im remotely to blame for other countries hyperactive security theatre, much less this country’s.
Also apparently pentagrams are inscrutable western garb to your average turk – bullshit by the way – whereas this “The Sun Does NOT Rise from a Muddy Spring! Go Pharyngula!!!” Shirt is understood everywhere.
Also apparently my family’s ancestral home is a tourist area. Go figure.
Vivec, you grew up at Topkapı? Coooool!
Also if full punk gear is normal touristclothes and 3~4 months a year is a quick visit, youve got me.
Vivec:
Fuck, I’ve been hanging here 8 years or so, and I don’t know what the hell that means. Anyroad, I’ve dropped a note to PZ, I think David needs a nap or something.
I grew up in many places -US and mexico among them. But yes, Topkapi is amazing. The clock exhibit there is my favorite.
I guess I don’t need to report a problem, then.
Just as well, I don’t know what to call this muddy spring thing.
Have you been to the islamic science history museum? I was there in 2009 when it was still rough around the edges, but it was pretty neat to see a museum largely dedicated to the period when Europe was run by brutal theocracies who occasionally sent out terroristic war parties to sack civilized areas.
Unfortunately not. Most of my trips are just eating succulent lamb and seeing my family. Grandma’s homemade iskender kebab is hard to beat.
That reminds me of the delicious vegetarian restaurant I ate at near Taksim park. The food in Istanbul was so much better than in Budapest (which I’d visited just beforehand). I only had a few days in Istanbul, but you’re reminding me I need to go back someday and visit other parts of the country. It’s a pity I didn’t hit up Iraqi Kurdistan or Syria on that trip.
I hope my next trip in that part of the world will include Iran. The whole region is fascinating, but Iran has a particular draw.
Mr Gibson has one of the worst cases of Muslim Derangement Syndrome I’ve seen outside of…well, outside of a Trump rally. David Gibson has been given a mandatory rest and retirement leave. Let us all hope he can recover in peace.
David Gibson
[Looks out of window.] Hmmm, no not really.
PZ, you don’t get out much do you? Gibson is mild compared to the average commenter on Breitbart or any of the other hives of vile scum that are the rightwing cesspools of the internet. Why, he even managed to type full sentences that make a bit of sense grammatically speaking. I call that a win nowadays.
Not really, no. And I’m in Belgium, like, right now. I think I would know if my country had been turned into an ‘armed camp’.
And by the way, as I’m typing this, sitting next to me is the co-worker I share my office with. She’s a muslim, she’s a scientist, she’s progressive and, guess what, she’s also wearing a hijab. How about that?
Which reminds me I should quickly mention that I’m here in Germany, we’re a small software business, and the guy who does most of our security at the moment is from Syria. Oh, and our second selling kind of guy (after the boss) is Turkish.
How about that?
From David‘s 95:
This sentence confuses me: should we be grateful because Trump supporters did not kill Rose Hamid because they’re oh-so-civilised compared to… I guess the uh less civilized people in Turkey and the Middle East? Or is that a warning that the USAmerican Right-wing is becoming more and more violent towards those it sees as different and dangerous?
Anyway. Out of all the blargle, that one stuck out because it seemed easiest to make sense of. Or something. It still doesn’t make sense.
Thanks to the other commenters here (notably Vivec) for standing up against the frothy spew of nuttery all over this thread.
I can’t comment on the 1980s, having first visited Germany in the 1990s, but it looks much the same to me now as it did then, except for more Kindergarten and longer store hours. Admittedly, the streets are littered with fireworks right now, but that’s just because New Year’s. So I don’t know in what way Germany can be considered “filthy”. I traveled through France and Belgium last October. Can’t say I saw a single person, official or otherwise, with a gun. Unlike in the US where ammosexuality is common. So not sure what alternate universe this statement is true in, but it’s not a Europe I recognize.
I’m at work. Several muslims in sight. I don’t have visual on any of the Mohammeds that are usually here. Also several latinos. And asians. And French people. Women engineers aplenty. Panic level: low.
Thanks for letting me know, I wouldn’t have noticed.
Personally I’m always a bit astonished when people want their country to be judged against Saudi Arabia. Really, that’s where you hang the bar?
Well, they could make an effort and hang it even lower, by making North Korea the standard to be judged against.
dianne,
To be fair, for a couple of weeks following the Paris attacks, we did have armed police, and indeed military, patrolling the streets in some places (eg. parts of Brussels and Antwerp), so that might be what David Gibson was referring to, but still. To say Belgium, Italy and France are ‘armed camps’ is blowing the thing wildly out of proportion.
@pentaomid: I was last in Belgium before the Paris attacks. I understand it did get a little crazy for a few days afterwards, particularly since there was at least a rumor of a threat of further violence being planned in Belgium. Fortunately, it seems to have calmed down now. But I thought David Gibson was referring to Belgium, Italy, and France as being “armed camp” for months at least, not just for a few days after the Paris attacks.
Incidentally, the place where I do see a lot of officials with guns is the NYC subways where the police hang out with machine guns in case…actually, I’m not exactly sure what they’re planning or expecting or guarding against. Another 9/11? Not sure how machine guns help against planes, but whatever.
<blockquote.Germany had become filthy, compared to even the 80s. absorbing millions of suddenly unemployed east germans and hundreds of kilometers of crumbling and asbestos ridden infrastructure will do that to ya.
blockquote fail. again
absorbing millions of suddenly unemployed east germans and hundreds of kilometers of crumbling and asbestos ridden infrastructure will do that to ya.
yeah, that something else would be euro-native fascism, which doesn’t need a trump. the aforementioned eastern germany especially is drowning in neo-nazis, but the national front also almost got elected in france.