Oh geez, this is a little tear-inducing. Congratulations to her, I hope she finds a vast amount of acceptance and doctors willing to listen.
carliesays
Congrats to Danielle – I wish her the best and hope she has not only supporters, but the kind who will help block and shut down anyone who tries to bother her over it.
embertinesays
Oh best of luck to her! I obviously know of her work and she seems like a top individual. Good to hear also that her bosses at AA are supportive and are giving her as long as she likes to transition in whatever way she likes. I raise a glass to you, madam (any excuse!).
I hope it goes well. Every time I see someone able to make this decision for themselves, it makes the swimming in shit that I did in transitioning 22yrs ago this month seem a bit less pointless evil, and a bit more blazing the trail to make that amazing supportive comment thread possible.
Come out, come put, my trans siblings! You have nothing to lose but your self-loathing. :)
moarscienceplzsays
Very brave of her.
Keep strong, Dannielle!
moarscienceplzsays
Oh, crud! I misspelled her name.
Sorry, Danielle.
Rob Grigjanissays
I have already lost friends over this…
Must be failure of imagination on my part. I can’t imagine cutting someone off for coming out. Acts of courage and honesty tend to make me feel even more friendly. Good job she has so much support from others.
Anthony Ksays
Good for Danielle! I wish nothing but the best.
Jackiesays
Adding my congratulations to the pile.
I wish her all the best. :)
gussnarpsays
Good for her!
Tethyssays
I am related to Danielle via marriage, though we have yet to meet. I plan to be her dedicated ally at the family reunions. I look forward to using my horde powers on the bigots, especially since one of them is my male parent.
I have already lost friends over this…
Argh, that really sucks. I hope they are mostly friends who still live in backwards, Missouri. Congratulations, and good luck on your journey.
LeftyFencersays
Good for her and all the rest of us.
rqsays
Congratulations and good luck, Danielle!!!
Gen, Uppity Ingrate and Ilksays
It’s great when someone is able to live to be the person they want to be, instead of the person society makes them be. Many wishes of good luck.
Also, apropos of nothing, Danielle is one of my all-time favourite names. Excellent choice.
Saadsays
Congratulations and best wishes, Danielle!
frogsays
I wish her strength and joy in her new, more open life!
Thomathy, Such A 'Mosays
I’m so happy for Daniellie. And I’m so happy that so many people are being so supportive. I so love the word so! It’s good to be able to reinforce something positively!
_____
Ugh, but there are some stupid people over there, being obtuse and frustrating. Not to mention one person who actually is transphobic.
terrilynnmeritt
From Danielle’s photo, it doesn’t look like she has transitioned yet but is imagining herself to be a woman. I don’t think it is phobic to call a male with a beard, penis and balls “he”.
So much wrong there. So fucking much.
Janine the Jackbooted Emotion Queensays
I know this is because I am a trans woman but I am waiting for certain segments of the atheist community to condemn.
And I also expect religious fundamentalist to claim that she is this way because she is an atheist.
Still, I wish her luck. It is scary to go through transition. But it is a huge relieve to be open about who you are.
Considering Hemant’s past history of letting shit stink on his blog in pursuit of free exchange of ideas, I sadly doubt he will be removing any of the transphobic comments. Perhaps Danielle doesn’t mind if he leaves them, but I feel like now is as good of a time as any to moderate for bigotry. This is a post to be celebrated, not debated (i.e. showered with hate and ignorance).
Man, I am so DONE over there. Perfect example that no matter how polite you are, it’s never polite enough to avoid the ire of the defensive. Fucking hell.
CaitieCat, those might have been the most petulantly defensive bunch I’ve ever come across. I could almost hear the whine and wail.
Gods, those same people even claim to be supportive. Well, if every time they get corrected for using transphobic language they get petulant and defensive, break down into tone-trolling and then get into semantics, the only people they’ll ever be supportive of are those who pat them on their shoulders and offer them tissues
It’s an odd kind of support where when they do or say something transphobic, they cry when they’re educated about it and asked not to do it again and then they get mad at you, because it’s easy to be confused when you still have the wrong genitals and it’s your fault anyway and they’re not transphobic so what?.
Janine the Jackbooted Emotion Queensays
CaitieCat, that Lizard…um…that kind of shit just get so fucking tiring. You gave that person more time than what was deserved. But I will admit that I have little patience.
Saadsays
CaitieCat, #20
There’s nothing more frustrating and disrespectful of a conversation than tone-trolling. I got angry before I even scrolled down to your first reply over there.
For the record, this is the hostile, condescending comment I made, which drew so much outraged defensiveness, in its rage-filled entirety:
“She. Just she. Please don’t use that kind of transphobic language.”
Obviously, fighting words, right?
It is not possible to be polite or civil enough when speaking truth to power.
Thomathy, Such A 'Mosays
And because of the Discuss format (really, it’s fucking awful), I’ve given that Lizard way more of my time and daily politeness than was ever deserved. Now that I’ve realised the comments were organised by up-voting by default, I see that Lizard dug a deep, deep hole and filled it with self-serving and tone-trolling. Bloody irritating.
toskasays
CaitieCat
In a world where “Guys, don’t do that” is controversial, I guess “Please don’t use transphobic language” gets the same reaction. I’m sorry. You didn’t deserve the dogpile. *hugs*
Saadsays
CaitieCat, #26
For the record, this is the hostile, condescending comment I made, which drew so much outraged defensiveness, in its rage-filled entirety:
“She. Just she. Please don’t use that kind of transphobic language.”
Maybe it was your use of that popular combative term please.
BUT FACIAL HAIR. Gendering people correctly is haaaaaard. God, those people commenting on Friendly Atheist sound so freaking immature. It won’t fucking kill them to call her “she”, but how many trans people are murdered or commit suicide because of a lack of acceptance? Anyone who misgenders her is a complete asshole with no understanding of what a trans person even is.
Thomathy, Such A 'Mosays
Well, we all know that using the word please is the highest level of condescension.
_____
Now that I’m commenting there at all, because the wrongness is multiplying as the thread wears on, I’m (unbelievably) trying very hard not to use any word or combination thereof that could be construed as hostile or condescending. Even when confronted with gems like:
Some Guy Somewhere
Is it insensitive for me to say “I don’t care”? One’s sexuality is personal business, only of significance to oneself and one’s partner(s).
Seriously. People got upset with CaitieCat. Seriously.
Caitie
People who dare to criticise privileged positions are impolite, rude, hostile and whatever by default.
Countdown to witch-lynching in 3-2-1…
+++
Also, the transphobes are out in larger force
Janine the Jackbooted Emotion Queensays
CaitieCat, how dare you calmly stand up for yourself!
Sadly, this is the type of shit I was talking about with my first comment.
Saadsays
Thomathy, #31
Even when confronted with gems like:
Is it insensitive for me to say “I don’t care”? One’s sexuality is personal business, only of significance to oneself and one’s partner(s).
I’ve developed a reply to this sentiment over the years which, at least in face-to-face conversations, shuts them right up. It usually happens when someone comes out as gay (most recently used it for Tim Cook’s announcement):
So what steps have you been taking to keep your sexuality a secret?
Al Dentesays
Best of wishes and congratulations to you, Danielle.
Also *hugs* for CaitieCat and others who’ve plumbed the depths of Friendly Atheist.
gussnarpsays
@Catie – That comment thread in response to you.. Just awful. I’m not trans and I might have used much stronger words than you. Typing that “he/she” in a comment in response to a post where a transwoman has just said “I prefer the pronouns she/her” felt to me very intentional. It sends a message. The only way to redeem that comment is to assume they only read the headline and not the full post.
But then to continually pile on you after your explanation? Just absurd. I think a lot of these things come of people who have strong opinions they’re used to having to fight to defend, so when they’ve got a forum on the internet, they just have to tell everyone their opinion. So they weigh in, as if it hasn’t all be said. But that’s just the ones at the first level. The second level, replying to your reply to criticism of your comment? The third level? I can’t believe that thread took over the whole comment section and no one just thought, well, that’s all said, maybe I’ll walk away, since this post is about Danielle, not me.
Thomathy, Such A 'Mosays
Oh, hey! I just noticed, at least when I use ‘gems’ it’s not entirely euphemistic. To the extent that those comments are gems, they’re rare, like the most precious ones. Oh! And they’re precious too! The world of word-play I’ve discovered here is endless.
Thomathy, Such A 'Mosays
gussnarp, you know that tone-trolls really just care about themselves. Perhaps the most telling thing of all is when the person who made the mistake acknowledged it and did that thing you do when you’re wrong and someone lets you know, well, they just kept on going!
*delurks*
ALL OF THE HUGS for CaitieCat!
*relurks*
lenisays
Best of luck to Danielle and I hope some of those friends she lost come around* later. Preferably with a lot of shame and regret and apologies, but I hope some good can eventually happen there too.
* By come around, I mean change their current behaviors and opinions for the better, maybe even to the degree that they can repair the friendship.
CaitieCat @ #4:
I hope it goes well. Every time I see someone able to make this decision for themselves, it makes the swimming in shit that I did in transitioning 22yrs ago this month seem a bit less pointless evil, and a bit more blazing the trail…
The trail-blazing definitely was not! You helped make this possible for people like Danielle today, and continue to do so by speaking up about it now. I have a very silly urge to thank you for your service :)
(Note: I left off the end of your comment about the supportive comment thread because it seemed less true after I read your subsequent comments. But maybe not. Those supportive comments still exist and hopefully Danielle will at least see them first.)
Holy cats, there’s one commenter who went to Every Single Comment I made, to berate me for how terribly hostile I was, and how wrong I was to even think that the use of he/she as a pronoun for someone could ever be transphobic. Also, apparently I hate cis people. And I’ve gotten an email for every horrid word, because gods forbid I don’t acknowledge every drop of my utter wrongness, and how much better this very angry cis person is than I am in knowing what transphobes is.
Obviously. :epic eyerolling:
Fucking hell, huh? Desperate need to exert your privilege much? Guh. More ice cream.
Mazel tov to Danielle! I wish her every happiness.
Trickster Goddesssays
Man, I am so DONE over there.
I hear you, CaitieCat. I recently dropped Friendly Atheist from my daily reading, in part because the quality of discussion there has been slipping. It doesn’t help that Terry Firma, who is often a good writer, can’t resist occasionally putting up a borderline nasty post about Islam that really seems to encourage the truly Islamophobic commenters to come out of the woodwork.
Good for Danielle, and congrats to her. I hope she has good friends and the family support to make her transition easier.
CaitieCat, hugs for being on the undeserved receiving end of appalling tone trolling and dog-piling, over on the Patheos thread. (How I hate Disqus. I hope Lizard, syinn and the rest are downvoted to oblivion)
Must be failure of imagination on my part. I can’t imagine cutting someone off for coming out. Acts of courage and honesty tend to make me feel even more friendly. Good job she has so much support from others.
Well, it happens. I’ve had two ‘comings out’ – being in a long-term gay relationship was the first, when I was twenty, and I had a hugely different range of reactions, including one of my closest friends calling me an ‘evil person’ and that they never wanted to see me again. Having come out as transgender a couple of decades later, this time round I had no such declarations of ‘I can no longer be your friend, ever again’… just more bullshit: minor insults or needless micro-aggressions, or being put on the ignore list or shunning, rather than deliberate unfriending, and hate-spouting. Danielle undoubtedly will find out who her friends are.
DrVanNostrandsays
I get the transphobic comments. Those people are just assholes. But I really don’t get the people who argue at length about the fact that they don’t care. I have no idea why they do it or what their point is. Maybe they just want people to stay in the closet or don’t like thinking about these things, in which case it just circles back around to bigotry, but it’s very odd behavior.
Saadsays
DrVanNostrand #51
They want to say what the transphobics are saying, but they either can’t bring themselves to be that nasty or they want to appear like they’re somehow moderates and are willing to meet people half way on such issues.
The anti-abortion people who make exceptions for rape do precisely this same thing. By making the rape exception they want you to think like they’re somehow offering a generous compromise to women, when in reality, their position is even worse than the pro-life absolutists’.
F.O.says
My brain just can’t process dumping a friend over a personal and harmless (but certainly not painless) choice.
WTF!?
Besides, Ms Muscato is deep in the neck with atheist activists, which makes me wonder how many of those “friends” don’t even have the excuse of being religious bigots.
Anyway, well done Danielle and good luck with the transition.
Ichthyicsays
CaitieCat, that Lizard…um…that kind of shit just get so fucking tiring. You gave that person more time than what was deserved. But I will admit that I have little patience.
Oh yes. If that were my blog, that shit would have gotten Lizard the boot (heh) way upstream from where Cattie finally left.
what an utter ass.
MG Myerssays
Congratulations and best wishes, Danielle!
DrVanNostrandsays
I rarely comment, but syllyn is bugging the hell out of me over there. The willful ignorance and refusal to learn anything is mind boggling. With allies like that…
DrVanNostrand, yes. Zie even busted out that favourite of the uberdefensive everywhere: zie has “several gay friends”, you see, and is thus a board-certified expert in assaying for transphobia.
Obviously.
I’m sure zie doesn’t even cling film the toilet seat when they come over…anymore.
There is no sufficiently polite way to help someone learn, when it’s about marginalised bodies, huh? Not once did anyone explain what made my initial comment so “hostile” and “condescending”. Funny, that. It’s almost like it wasn’t any of those things, outside the minds of my “allies”.
I feel like Tevye, thanking Hir Honour for only making a show of pogrom, calling such people allies. :/
toskasays
CaitieCat
Not once did anyone explain what made my initial comment so “hostile” and “condescending”. Funny, that. It’s almost like it wasn’t any of those things, outside the minds of my “allies”.
Your initial comment was “hostile” because you corrected a member of the privileged class. This is the highest form of bullying and persecution. /s
Yes, we will tolerate marginalized people as long as they stay quiet, especially when we allies are the ones doing the marginalizing. Now pat us on the back for being so open minded.
Besides, Ms Muscato is deep in the neck with atheist activists, which makes me wonder how many of those “friends” don’t even have the excuse of being religious bigots.
Over the last years I’ve come to the conclusion that it ultimately doesn’t matter that much if an asshole is religious or atheist. Both types have their own supreme unchallengable justification. The religious kind has their god(s), the atheist ones have their reason, which is clearly superior to that of any person who disagrees with them.
I won’t say religion doesn’t matter, but all it ultimately does is to alter the ratio of assholes vs. non-assholes, though I’m not really sure anymore about the direction.
+++ Caitie
*dumps supportive hugs and chocolate*
That person is really like the most spoilt of all spoilt brats, making it all about them them them.
carliesays
God, Catiecat, that thread was horrid. Mythbri did some heavy lifting, but jeez.
Not once did anyone explain what made my initial comment so “hostile” and “condescending”.
Somewhere in there was a telling statement, I think by EllenBeth Wachs (surprise) – she said that the word transphobic itself was hostile. That just stunned me. She literally said that it’s impossible to use the correct word to describe an action, because in her mind just using the word itself is a hostile thing to do. It’s the equivalent to, in the foot-stomping analogy, saying “You can’t say I “stepped on” your foot, because that is a hostile thing to say that I did, because it’s a a bad thing and makes me feel bad, so you can’t say it”. It’s exactly like a 5 year old bursting into tears when you just say the word “no” because you have so grievously wounded them. It’s ridiculous.
she said that the word transphobic itself was hostile.
So far we’ve been informed that the word “feminist” is sexist, “privilege” is too scary for the privileged, harassment is “just disagreeing” and now “transphobic” is hostile.
People who defend the status quo want to shut down all discussion of inequality and how to correct it.
Jackiesays
CaitieCat,
I’m sorry people treated you that way. They’re jerks and they’re wrong. (hug)
DrVanNostrandsays
Well, it looks like Saad @52 was right. The guy I was talking about (“Some Guy Somewhere”) has followed up to say that he refuses to use the proper pronouns because the dictionary says so, and he won’t change unless Google dictionary is successfully lobbied to change the definitions of male and female. So it seems like he really commented to let everyone know that he doesn’t respect Danielle’s gender identity and will proudly continue to use transphobic language.
ButchKittiessays
That was the first time I’ve been to Friendly Atheist in a long time. I had the misfortune of seeing how people dog-piled on CaitieCat, was reminded of just how unfriendly that place ultimately is, and broke my speed record for mood swings from YAY! to Goddammit! I’m really sorry about how people treated you, CaitieCat.
And note to self: You’ve been avoiding that place for a reason, BK. Next time just enjoy the good news from afar. Very, very afar.
Rowan vet-techsays
Let’s see if the tone troll over there will berate my cousin for gently correcting me on an accidentally racist word I said.
Rowan vet-techsays
Aaaand hit submit too soon (long day).
Well, once they get that reading comprehension thing down and comprehend that I did not know that that was a bad word. I was lucky enough to figure it out myself after being told because I took 3 years of Japanese language in college. Only took a moment to realise what it was a shorthand for.
So clearly the tone troll will write hundreds of words condemning her because my cousin’s phrasing wasn’t too dissimilar from CaitieCat’s therefore she was rude and incorrect to call me out because it’s clear that I didn’t have ill intent.
Rachel: a transitioning astronomy studentsays
As someone who started transitioning this year, I wish Danielle the best of luck. I hope everything work out for her.
azhaelsays
Congratulations to Danielle! Being free to be yourself is fantastic and i hope it will bring you nothing but joy.
Also, i’d like to express support for CaitieCat, i’ve read the comment exchange over there and fuck me, after a while i was fantasizing about smacking people through the internet (just fantasizing, would never do it). What can you expect from people who simultaneously think there is such a thing as “bad language” that is ALWAYS bad, and that language cannot be offensive in an on itself because intent is magic.
RobertLsays
I find it interesting, too, that Jasper was the commenter who used the “he/she” pronoun and he seems to have no problem with CaitieCat calling him out on it.
Plenty of other people piled onto CaitieCat but he returned a bit later and apologised for his inadvertent offence. That just adds to the cluelessness of the others.
Oddly enough, zie just apologised. Accompanied with a request to educate hir some more, which I politely declined.
Today is the Trans Day of Remembrance. 226 of my trans siblings were murdered this year, that we know of (this is absolutely an undercount, but nobody knows by how much, because no one official keeps track). Most were Women of Colour, and very few of their killers will even go to trial, let alone be convicted.
Oh geez, this is a little tear-inducing. Congratulations to her, I hope she finds a vast amount of acceptance and doctors willing to listen.
Congrats to Danielle – I wish her the best and hope she has not only supporters, but the kind who will help block and shut down anyone who tries to bother her over it.
Oh best of luck to her! I obviously know of her work and she seems like a top individual. Good to hear also that her bosses at AA are supportive and are giving her as long as she likes to transition in whatever way she likes. I raise a glass to you, madam (any excuse!).
I hope it goes well. Every time I see someone able to make this decision for themselves, it makes the swimming in shit that I did in transitioning 22yrs ago this month seem a bit less pointless evil, and a bit more blazing the trail to make that amazing supportive comment thread possible.
Come out, come put, my trans siblings! You have nothing to lose but your self-loathing. :)
Very brave of her.
Keep strong, Dannielle!
Oh, crud! I misspelled her name.
Sorry, Danielle.
Must be failure of imagination on my part. I can’t imagine cutting someone off for coming out. Acts of courage and honesty tend to make me feel even more friendly. Good job she has so much support from others.
Good for Danielle! I wish nothing but the best.
Adding my congratulations to the pile.
I wish her all the best. :)
Good for her!
I am related to Danielle via marriage, though we have yet to meet. I plan to be her dedicated ally at the family reunions. I look forward to using my horde powers on the bigots, especially since one of them is my male parent.
Argh, that really sucks. I hope they are mostly friends who still live in backwards, Missouri. Congratulations, and good luck on your journey.
Good for her and all the rest of us.
Congratulations and good luck, Danielle!!!
It’s great when someone is able to live to be the person they want to be, instead of the person society makes them be. Many wishes of good luck.
Also, apropos of nothing, Danielle is one of my all-time favourite names. Excellent choice.
Congratulations and best wishes, Danielle!
I wish her strength and joy in her new, more open life!
I’m so happy for Daniellie. And I’m so happy that so many people are being so supportive. I so love the word so! It’s good to be able to reinforce something positively!
_____
Ugh, but there are some stupid people over there, being obtuse and frustrating. Not to mention one person who actually is transphobic.
terrilynnmeritt
So much wrong there. So fucking much.
I know this is because I am a trans woman but I am waiting for certain segments of the atheist community to condemn.
And I also expect religious fundamentalist to claim that she is this way because she is an atheist.
Still, I wish her luck. It is scary to go through transition. But it is a huge relieve to be open about who you are.
Considering Hemant’s past history of letting shit stink on his blog in pursuit of free exchange of ideas, I sadly doubt he will be removing any of the transphobic comments. Perhaps Danielle doesn’t mind if he leaves them, but I feel like now is as good of a time as any to moderate for bigotry. This is a post to be celebrated, not debated (i.e. showered with hate and ignorance).
Man, I am so DONE over there. Perfect example that no matter how polite you are, it’s never polite enough to avoid the ire of the defensive. Fucking hell.
All the best to you, Danielle.
I hope the supportive and loving people in your life are many and the jerks you encounter on your way are few.
The link is dead.
CaitieCat, those might have been the most petulantly defensive bunch I’ve ever come across. I could almost hear the whine and wail.
Gods, those same people even claim to be supportive. Well, if every time they get corrected for using transphobic language they get petulant and defensive, break down into tone-trolling and then get into semantics, the only people they’ll ever be supportive of are those who pat them on their shoulders and offer them tissues
It’s an odd kind of support where when they do or say something transphobic, they cry when they’re educated about it and asked not to do it again and then they get mad at you, because it’s easy to be confused when you still have the wrong genitals and it’s your fault anyway and they’re not transphobic so what?.
CaitieCat, that Lizard…um…that kind of shit just get so fucking tiring. You gave that person more time than what was deserved. But I will admit that I have little patience.
CaitieCat, #20
There’s nothing more frustrating and disrespectful of a conversation than tone-trolling. I got angry before I even scrolled down to your first reply over there.
For the record, this is the hostile, condescending comment I made, which drew so much outraged defensiveness, in its rage-filled entirety:
“She. Just she. Please don’t use that kind of transphobic language.”
Obviously, fighting words, right?
It is not possible to be polite or civil enough when speaking truth to power.
And because of the Discuss format (really, it’s fucking awful), I’ve given that Lizard way more of my time and daily politeness than was ever deserved. Now that I’ve realised the comments were organised by up-voting by default, I see that Lizard dug a deep, deep hole and filled it with self-serving and tone-trolling. Bloody irritating.
CaitieCat
In a world where “Guys, don’t do that” is controversial, I guess “Please don’t use transphobic language” gets the same reaction. I’m sorry. You didn’t deserve the dogpile. *hugs*
CaitieCat, #26
Maybe it was your use of that popular combative term please.
BUT FACIAL HAIR. Gendering people correctly is haaaaaard. God, those people commenting on Friendly Atheist sound so freaking immature. It won’t fucking kill them to call her “she”, but how many trans people are murdered or commit suicide because of a lack of acceptance? Anyone who misgenders her is a complete asshole with no understanding of what a trans person even is.
Well, we all know that using the word please is the highest level of condescension.
_____
Now that I’m commenting there at all, because the wrongness is multiplying as the thread wears on, I’m (unbelievably) trying very hard not to use any word or combination thereof that could be construed as hostile or condescending. Even when confronted with gems like:
Some Guy Somewhere
Seriously. People got upset with CaitieCat. Seriously.
Yep, fucking asshole doesn’t even know gender from sexuality, why am I not surprised. Google is too goddamn difficult for these people too apparently.
Seriously, I totes got uber-Watsoned there. :(
I’m gonna go eat ice cream.
Caitie
People who dare to criticise privileged positions are impolite, rude, hostile and whatever by default.
Countdown to witch-lynching in 3-2-1…
+++
Also, the transphobes are out in larger force
CaitieCat, how dare you calmly stand up for yourself!
Sadly, this is the type of shit I was talking about with my first comment.
Thomathy, #31
Even when confronted with gems like:
I’ve developed a reply to this sentiment over the years which, at least in face-to-face conversations, shuts them right up. It usually happens when someone comes out as gay (most recently used it for Tim Cook’s announcement):
So what steps have you been taking to keep your sexuality a secret?
Best of wishes and congratulations to you, Danielle.
Craaaap, messed up your quote, Thomathy. Sorry.
Meh. It’s not the worst. :P
Best wishes to Danielle, and all my support.
Also *hugs* for CaitieCat and others who’ve plumbed the depths of Friendly Atheist.
@Catie – That comment thread in response to you.. Just awful. I’m not trans and I might have used much stronger words than you. Typing that “he/she” in a comment in response to a post where a transwoman has just said “I prefer the pronouns she/her” felt to me very intentional. It sends a message. The only way to redeem that comment is to assume they only read the headline and not the full post.
But then to continually pile on you after your explanation? Just absurd. I think a lot of these things come of people who have strong opinions they’re used to having to fight to defend, so when they’ve got a forum on the internet, they just have to tell everyone their opinion. So they weigh in, as if it hasn’t all be said. But that’s just the ones at the first level. The second level, replying to your reply to criticism of your comment? The third level? I can’t believe that thread took over the whole comment section and no one just thought, well, that’s all said, maybe I’ll walk away, since this post is about Danielle, not me.
Oh, hey! I just noticed, at least when I use ‘gems’ it’s not entirely euphemistic. To the extent that those comments are gems, they’re rare, like the most precious ones. Oh! And they’re precious too! The world of word-play I’ve discovered here is endless.
gussnarp, you know that tone-trolls really just care about themselves. Perhaps the most telling thing of all is when the person who made the mistake acknowledged it and did that thing you do when you’re wrong and someone lets you know, well, they just kept on going!
*delurks*
ALL OF THE HUGS for CaitieCat!
*relurks*
Best of luck to Danielle and I hope some of those friends she lost come around* later. Preferably with a lot of shame and regret and apologies, but I hope some good can eventually happen there too.
* By come around, I mean change their current behaviors and opinions for the better, maybe even to the degree that they can repair the friendship.
CaitieCat @ #4:
The trail-blazing definitely was not! You helped make this possible for people like Danielle today, and continue to do so by speaking up about it now. I have a very silly urge to thank you for your service :)
(Note: I left off the end of your comment about the supportive comment thread because it seemed less true after I read your subsequent comments. But maybe not. Those supportive comments still exist and hopefully Danielle will at least see them first.)
Holy cats, there’s one commenter who went to Every Single Comment I made, to berate me for how terribly hostile I was, and how wrong I was to even think that the use of he/she as a pronoun for someone could ever be transphobic. Also, apparently I hate cis people. And I’ve gotten an email for every horrid word, because gods forbid I don’t acknowledge every drop of my utter wrongness, and how much better this very angry cis person is than I am in knowing what transphobes is.
Obviously. :epic eyerolling:
Fucking hell, huh? Desperate need to exert your privilege much? Guh. More ice cream.
And thanks, for the supportive comments. :)
Mazel tov to Danielle! I wish her every happiness.
I hear you, CaitieCat. I recently dropped Friendly Atheist from my daily reading, in part because the quality of discussion there has been slipping. It doesn’t help that Terry Firma, who is often a good writer, can’t resist occasionally putting up a borderline nasty post about Islam that really seems to encourage the truly Islamophobic commenters to come out of the woodwork.
Good for Danielle, and congrats to her. I hope she has good friends and the family support to make her transition easier.
CaitieCat, hugs for being on the undeserved receiving end of appalling tone trolling and dog-piling, over on the Patheos thread. (How I hate Disqus. I hope Lizard, syinn and the rest are downvoted to oblivion)
Quoting Rob Grigjanis,
Well, it happens. I’ve had two ‘comings out’ – being in a long-term gay relationship was the first, when I was twenty, and I had a hugely different range of reactions, including one of my closest friends calling me an ‘evil person’ and that they never wanted to see me again. Having come out as transgender a couple of decades later, this time round I had no such declarations of ‘I can no longer be your friend, ever again’… just more bullshit: minor insults or needless micro-aggressions, or being put on the ignore list or shunning, rather than deliberate unfriending, and hate-spouting. Danielle undoubtedly will find out who her friends are.
I get the transphobic comments. Those people are just assholes. But I really don’t get the people who argue at length about the fact that they don’t care. I have no idea why they do it or what their point is. Maybe they just want people to stay in the closet or don’t like thinking about these things, in which case it just circles back around to bigotry, but it’s very odd behavior.
DrVanNostrand #51
They want to say what the transphobics are saying, but they either can’t bring themselves to be that nasty or they want to appear like they’re somehow moderates and are willing to meet people half way on such issues.
The anti-abortion people who make exceptions for rape do precisely this same thing. By making the rape exception they want you to think like they’re somehow offering a generous compromise to women, when in reality, their position is even worse than the pro-life absolutists’.
My brain just can’t process dumping a friend over a personal and harmless (but certainly not painless) choice.
WTF!?
Besides, Ms Muscato is deep in the neck with atheist activists, which makes me wonder how many of those “friends” don’t even have the excuse of being religious bigots.
Anyway, well done Danielle and good luck with the transition.
Oh yes. If that were my blog, that shit would have gotten Lizard the boot (heh) way upstream from where Cattie finally left.
what an utter ass.
Congratulations and best wishes, Danielle!
I rarely comment, but syllyn is bugging the hell out of me over there. The willful ignorance and refusal to learn anything is mind boggling. With allies like that…
DrVanNostrand, yes. Zie even busted out that favourite of the uberdefensive everywhere: zie has “several gay friends”, you see, and is thus a board-certified expert in assaying for transphobia.
Obviously.
I’m sure zie doesn’t even cling film the toilet seat when they come over…anymore.
There is no sufficiently polite way to help someone learn, when it’s about marginalised bodies, huh? Not once did anyone explain what made my initial comment so “hostile” and “condescending”. Funny, that. It’s almost like it wasn’t any of those things, outside the minds of my “allies”.
I feel like Tevye, thanking Hir Honour for only making a show of pogrom, calling such people allies. :/
CaitieCat
Your initial comment was “hostile” because you corrected a member of the privileged class. This is the highest form of bullying and persecution. /s
:(
F.O.
Over the last years I’ve come to the conclusion that it ultimately doesn’t matter that much if an asshole is religious or atheist. Both types have their own supreme unchallengable justification. The religious kind has their god(s), the atheist ones have their reason, which is clearly superior to that of any person who disagrees with them.
I won’t say religion doesn’t matter, but all it ultimately does is to alter the ratio of assholes vs. non-assholes, though I’m not really sure anymore about the direction.
+++
Caitie
*dumps supportive hugs and chocolate*
That person is really like the most spoilt of all spoilt brats, making it all about them them them.
God, Catiecat, that thread was horrid. Mythbri did some heavy lifting, but jeez.
Somewhere in there was a telling statement, I think by EllenBeth Wachs (surprise) – she said that the word transphobic itself was hostile. That just stunned me. She literally said that it’s impossible to use the correct word to describe an action, because in her mind just using the word itself is a hostile thing to do. It’s the equivalent to, in the foot-stomping analogy, saying “You can’t say I “stepped on” your foot, because that is a hostile thing to say that I did, because it’s a a bad thing and makes me feel bad, so you can’t say it”. It’s exactly like a 5 year old bursting into tears when you just say the word “no” because you have so grievously wounded them. It’s ridiculous.
Ugh… That exchange with “Lizard” and “syllyn” in the Patheos comments. I’ve never seen a clear example of professional victims holding a pity party.
“…clearer example…”, rather.
So far we’ve been informed that the word “feminist” is sexist, “privilege” is too scary for the privileged, harassment is “just disagreeing” and now “transphobic” is hostile.
People who defend the status quo want to shut down all discussion of inequality and how to correct it.
CaitieCat,
I’m sorry people treated you that way. They’re jerks and they’re wrong. (hug)
Well, it looks like Saad @52 was right. The guy I was talking about (“Some Guy Somewhere”) has followed up to say that he refuses to use the proper pronouns because the dictionary says so, and he won’t change unless Google dictionary is successfully lobbied to change the definitions of male and female. So it seems like he really commented to let everyone know that he doesn’t respect Danielle’s gender identity and will proudly continue to use transphobic language.
That was the first time I’ve been to Friendly Atheist in a long time. I had the misfortune of seeing how people dog-piled on CaitieCat, was reminded of just how unfriendly that place ultimately is, and broke my speed record for mood swings from YAY! to Goddammit! I’m really sorry about how people treated you, CaitieCat.
And note to self: You’ve been avoiding that place for a reason, BK. Next time just enjoy the good news from afar. Very, very afar.
Let’s see if the tone troll over there will berate my cousin for gently correcting me on an accidentally racist word I said.
Aaaand hit submit too soon (long day).
Well, once they get that reading comprehension thing down and comprehend that I did not know that that was a bad word. I was lucky enough to figure it out myself after being told because I took 3 years of Japanese language in college. Only took a moment to realise what it was a shorthand for.
So clearly the tone troll will write hundreds of words condemning her because my cousin’s phrasing wasn’t too dissimilar from CaitieCat’s therefore she was rude and incorrect to call me out because it’s clear that I didn’t have ill intent.
As someone who started transitioning this year, I wish Danielle the best of luck. I hope everything work out for her.
Congratulations to Danielle! Being free to be yourself is fantastic and i hope it will bring you nothing but joy.
Also, i’d like to express support for CaitieCat, i’ve read the comment exchange over there and fuck me, after a while i was fantasizing about smacking people through the internet (just fantasizing, would never do it). What can you expect from people who simultaneously think there is such a thing as “bad language” that is ALWAYS bad, and that language cannot be offensive in an on itself because intent is magic.
I find it interesting, too, that Jasper was the commenter who used the “he/she” pronoun and he seems to have no problem with CaitieCat calling him out on it.
Plenty of other people piled onto CaitieCat but he returned a bit later and apologised for his inadvertent offence. That just adds to the cluelessness of the others.
Oddly enough, zie just apologised. Accompanied with a request to educate hir some more, which I politely declined.
Today is the Trans Day of Remembrance. 226 of my trans siblings were murdered this year, that we know of (this is absolutely an undercount, but nobody knows by how much, because no one official keeps track). Most were Women of Colour, and very few of their killers will even go to trial, let alone be convicted.