Here we go again. The Adria Richards story has settled into a couple of common themes, and Ars echoes the conventional wisdom. I’m very disappointed in this lazy editorial.
First, look at this nonsense:
Let’s start by spreading the blame where it’s deserved: on nearly everyone involved. The “Boy’s Club” mentality is thankfully no longer acceptable in tech, but it’s still common—some people have actually described tech to me as “men’s work.”
It’s no longer acceptable, but it’s common? Huh. Somebody didn’t think about what they were writing. We’ll just announce that the problem is nonexistent, while sweeping the reality of the situation aside.
But I’d like to point out something sneakier. Here’s the common message:
“Forking a repo” and “big dongles” must rank somewhere around “0.5: classless brospeak” on the seismic scale of harassing/menacing behavior toward women. While such sexually inappropriate comments are completely unnacceptable in professional settings (to many men as well as women), neither merits firing unless someone had a history of making unwelcome comments.
I think we all agree 100% that no one ought to have been fired over this incident. The major villains here are the two companies that used this event as an excuse to axe a couple of employees.
But notice what else everyone is saying: what the two guys did was trivial and minor, “‘0.5: classless brospeak’ on the seismic scale of harassing/menacing behavior toward women”. Keep that in mind for a moment. That kind of thing has been said a lot.
Yet these two men don’t get all of the blame. One recurring theme on message boards and chat rooms, including our own, is that while Richards had every right to report the behavior of the two men to conference organizers, snapping their photograph and posting it publicly to “Twitter shame” them was a step too far (speaking of a step too far, there are other, more repugnant recurring themes among commenters, too). They’re right; going public was not the only way Richards could get a relatively minor issue addressed. She could have confronted the two men or she could have gone straight to PyCon. Her actions only escalated the situation.
It’s a “relatively minor issue”. OK, let’s go along with that for a moment…let’s say it really was an inconsequential, negligible faux pas by the two guys. But if that’s the case, what is this bullshit?
…snapping their photograph and posting it publicly to “Twitter shame” them was a step too far…
Was it something to be ashamed of, or not? Was it a horrible, embarrassing thing to publicize, or was it a “relatively minor issue”? You don’t get to have it both ways. Either it was too damaging to make public, or it was a slight affront that shouldn’t seriously affect any of the participants — it was a minute impropriety that was perfectly reasonable to mention on a casual, conversational medium like Twitter.
This is what’s really pissing me off right now: the flagrant dishonesty of all these people having the vapors over someone posting a photo on Twitter and saying someone’s behavior was “not cool”. Jesus. Have they ever fucking used Twitter? It’s non-stop chatter — just today I’ve been accused of being a “Nazi” and of being “evil”. Please, Ars Technica, do your tut-tut routine right now over all the naughty people ‘Twitter shaming’ right and left. Please also express your sadness that thousands of tweets are going up right now ‘Twitter shaming’ Adria Richards in far more outrageous terms than “not cool.”
Are people seriously proposing that somehow Twitter should be policed for manners, and we should start wagging our fingers at people who dare to rebuke others via that medium? If so, half my correspondents are going to have to shut up. This is ridiculous. Richards’ comment was minor, was appropriate, and was addressing a real issue in a reasonable way.
And then there’s this:
In a blog post explaining the story in her own words, Richards wrote about how, over the course of the jokes, she moved from “I was going to let it go” to “I realized I had to do something.” The moment of decision came after seeing a picture of a young girl on the main stage who had attended a Young Coders workshop. “She would never have the chance to learn and love programming,” Richards wrote, “because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so.”
Clearly, this is hyperbole. These two guys weren’t going to prevent anybody from doing anything. Suddenly, a couple off-color jokes represented all the serious forces that can hold women back from tech careers. While denouncing bad behavior certainly has its place, proportion is important—and this approach to these jokes simply makes it harder to have a sincere discussion about misogyny and men’s/women’s issues in the workplace.
It’s only hyperbole if you misinterpret it. No, I doubt Richards thought these two guys were going to run up on the stage and slap awards off the podium and denounce the young girl being recognized. Richards was referring to a culture that considers those kinds of off-color remarks reasonable in a professional setting. Remember, “it’s still common”. That is what inhibits women from participating in these opportunities.
We’re living in a world where those off-color jokes are dismissed as “classless brospeak”, not worth making a fuss over, while someone tweeting a picture of someone engaging in “classless brospeak” is a disproportionate response, and “makes it harder to have a sincere discussion about misogyny and men’s/women’s issues in the workplace”.
But unwanted sexual innuendo doesn’t? Both men and women make jokes about sex, of course, and there’s a tricky line to be drawn between what’s appropriate and what isn’t, but one of the things I’m seeing all over the place is that in the conversation about where to draw the line, women are expected to shut up; that when they do speak up, however mildly, and say “not cool” or “guys, don’t do that”, boom, the guyverse explodes and denounces the damned uppity woman in either the most furious and violent terms possible, or with polite little suggestions that maybe they should be quieter next time.
But you know, the latter is almost as bad as the former. It’s the privilege of the majority to use politeness to maintain the status quo, while it’s a necessity for the minority to assert the right to offend.
@daniellevine 400
First: who have you heard defend the death threats? That’s a huge thing to me, I don’t think anybody has. A number of people have actually defended the twitter picture. I have yet to see anybody publicly defend the death and rape threats, and I only support firing Adria because her ability to do her job has been compromised. If I suddenly lost the ability to write code I should no longer do that job. It sucks for me, and I would hope that I have other options, but I should no longer be a coder.
Second: I got all of these replies at once, and in some weird orders… I didn’t see any mention of blockquotes and direct address until I had already replied to a lot of things… yeah, that’s totally on me. My bad. Should have spent more time learning this comment system before starting to use it. Also, it’s a really poorly designed comment system. Threaded is much, much better.
When sexism fails, go for ableism!
Why bash one minority when you can bash two?
.
@daniellevine
Not in any meaningful way, no you haven’t. You haven’t addressed why this is sexist in any way that make any sense at all. You haven’t provided a case. If I say “I would like to fork that bi*&’s repo” then I have been sexist and an asshole. If I’m a bit too loud in between speakers that I would fork that guys repo, and then in a few minutes tell an off colour (and damned stupid) joke about large dongles, I’m probably socially awkward and bad at being in public.
domah@499:
Ah, you’re entertained by people being threatened by “rape” and “death” and you consider that a joke at Richards’ expense, then?
If you don’t want your words twisted stop twisting other people’s words, jackass.
domah@501:
Have you? I’m getting a lot of signs of narcissistic personality disorder from you.
traversedavies @489
I’m going to be fired because my existence is “controversial”. Spare me with your little crybaby routine over the nonexistent threat of douchebags being fired for only “one” inappropriate sexist action seeking to minimize and harass minority group members.
Also, to answer your bullshit on sexual jokes, this was used by someone in these very threads to specifically harass me as a woman because they wanted to put me in my place:
See the issue? See the way that sexual jokes are used to remind women that their role is “servants” as proper “sex class members”. Notice how as a “joke” it fails on nearly every level. Notice how perfectly it operates as an implicit threat.
Consider then being a woman. And dealing with such jokes day in and day out. Little minimizations and diminishments. Oh, every girl has shopping as a skill, because that’s the sort of frivolous thing they do in a science museum. Oh, I’ll just peek under the skirt, hurr, hurr, this joke is occuring in a rape culture where men feel entitled to rape women without repercussion. Oh, I’m in a panel dedicated to women, one of the only at the show and I’m inches away from the front and a young woman is being focused on, let me trade puerile jokes at a loud enough volume about wanting to fuck people and how big my dick is to cover up my discomfort at allowing a single space of female-focused content to exist without backlash.
Consider how frustrated you would be.
Actually, never mind, consider yourself as a nerd man and every day you went to work people were trading “jokes” about how useless nerd men were. How they were good for nothing but straightening cable wire on the floor and how they sure do love to see those little fey asses writhe for us. How nerd men aren’t really worthy of their positions and must have gotten those spots out of sympathy for how feminized and girly they are.
Imagine that was your every day. Imagine that there are no other nerds in your department, they are all abusive bullying assholes. Imagine then you’re in a convention for work and it’s the first one at the con that actually talks about being a nerd in your industry and how we can get more nerds into the industry. Imagine that behind you people are making those floor writhing jokes about nerd men.
Imagine having to stand up for your basic humanity for one single time and then being subjected to the worst hatred in the world for doing so. Imagine some douchebag coming in and saying what did you expect being a nerd men getting all bent out of shape over something that’s everywhere.
Imagine that.
Now look at what you are participating in, why sexist jokes might be considered someone’s snapping point. Consider why the system as currently exists sucks.
Consider why it needs to change.
Consider helping change it instead of siding with modern day Klansmen.
Your choice. Your decision.
traversedavies,
Oy! As I already mentioned a couple of times (and others have as well), don’t try to use us socially awkward people as your excuses.
Trav,
Has it occurred to you that you are now making up excuses for the sexist comments out of thin air?
Also, I notice that you seem unable to see the several comments I directed to you, by name.
So you are ignoring a woman talking about sexism while you do mental gymnastics to find a reason why something someone admitted was sexist was in fact, not.
But you don’t do sexism. Nah. You’re fine.
Seems the typical feminist response is… “… blah blah … if you dont agree with my argument, it means you are for the rape and death threats”.
I think we’ve been over this more than a few times. Nobody is condoning such comments. In fact, Ms. Richards had the power to prevent all of this by not being such a bully and ass in the first place.
@roro80
And yet, it would be easy to find many, many women who disagree with you on this… and the fact that you can stretch harrasment laws to cover this incident doesn’t mean Adria Richards was in the right. Morally, no. I disagree. You are making a moral judgement that holds very little water with me. You are placing a level of control on discourse that I believe is immoral. The saying women could be found who disagree is a reply to the comment that it is wrong by what many women say the experience. If that is true, then the majority of women would have to agree that it is better to censor this level of comment than it is to allow it. I don’t think you will manage to do that.
Traversedavies:
How about spending as much energy getting the issuers of the threats identified and prosecuted as you do excusing the behavior of the dudebros? How about acknowledging the facts: that they started making sexist jokes while she was taking to them? That what they did was inappropriate, against convention policy, and constituted sexual harassment?
You’re trying to answer everyone who disagrees with you individually? Please don’t. Intead, try to come up with some coherent explanation of why you can defend sexist behavior while believing that you never defend sexism. Intent is’t magic. Even if you don’t intend to defend sexism, you are. Oh, and good on you for leaving a job with a sexist boss. That was a good thing to do. Now try to be less tolerant of the bath of low-level sexism that you take for granted.
Sexism and the undervaluing of women are more than just social phenomena. I overheard an IT manager boasting to his mates that he had just hired a woman for $20,000 a year less than she was worth because she didn’t know any better. And yet, if women try to negotiate for more, they are often seen as “difficult” and punished for it in subtle ways. so much for “just speak up!” But I’m getting off-topic.
Both of you, go back to your online social spaces and say that it’s not OK to send threats of rape and death and the people who do so should be fired.
traversedavies@500:
When you spend all your time talking about how terrible Adria Richards is and how this is all her fault it sounds a lot like an apology for what’s happening to her. It sounds a lot like a justification for it. It sounds a lot like “she was asking for it.”
Some people agree that Richards was in the wrong, some people do not. Most people seem to agree she should not have been fired but that is also arguable. But when you spend all your time blaming the woman and not taking a serious look at anything any other parties did wrong here it sounds like you’re blaming Richards for the whole affair.
One of the coders in my shop is legally blind. The only injuries and illnesses that would stop you from coding would stop you from doing pretty much anything else as well.
Threaded can be better but it has its own drawbacks. It’s pretty arguable. Nonetheless, even addressing the person to whom you are responding is easy, effective, and merely polite.
Domah,
You’ve yet to explain how she was being a bully and an ass. But you have been sexist and ableist. The only reason people like you are allowed a space here is so others can clearly see how awful and dishonest your arguments are.
But do go on. You and Trav have some might fine holes dug there. Might as well keep shoveling.
traversedavies@503:
Yes I have. I have explained it three times and you have simply ignored it. Other people have explained this as well.
I have explained those three times that the jokes themselves are not sexist. I have claimed that they contribute to an atmosphere of sexism. Boys’ locker rooms are not typically welcoming places for women and so when you turn your office or a convention hall into a boys’ locker room you are contributing to a sexist environment.
Holy shit. Its as if you are living in the 1930’s. Welcome to the 21st Century. Please leave your emotional baggage at the door. Men and women are equally capable of performing most jobs. If you think men, in general, are out to “remind” women that they are to be “subservient” you must be on powerful drugs.
domah@509:
And the misogynist shithead response is apparently: “victim mentality! Bllaraaaarrgh!”
You are the one choosing to focus on Richards’ culpability despite the bad behavior of many players in this little affair. That focus is your responsibility. I am completely entitled to draw conclusions about you on the basis of your focus on that aspect of the issue, especially when it seems so minor contrasted with other aspects.
Don’t blame “the feminists” that you come across as apologizing for the threats. Blame yourself.
traversedavies@510:
As already noted, it would be sexist to suggest that women can never be wrong or sexist. So the fact that some women disagree does not actually constitute support for your argument.
Not sure about the mathematical capabilities of women vs men; however, I can tell you this. In my CS class, I certainly wished there were more females. It was about 85% men. Why? Well, the female classmates I spoke with generally showed a disinterest towards science/technology. They were much more interested in fields that allowed for interpersonal communication and social dynamics.
Is this a bad thing? To a feminist, it probably is. If this is truly what these women want, I don’t see any problems with it. In fact, I don’t buy, for a second, that women are being discouraged from entering sci-tech fields. At my university, women were actively encouraged to go into Engineering and Science, its just it seemed as though they had a lot less interest in those fields than some guys did. That I cannot explain.
@UnknownEric
Sorry, can’t be arsed to find the comment number, the content is there. Look, what I have shown is that some women will be discomfited by this level of public censorship of discourse. Some will be made more comfortable. Now I guess it’s a question of which set of rights matter more. Unless we can get number, I personally feel we should err on the side of the one that represses the most freedoms. One represses the freedom to never hear something you find offensive. Since that will only work for some groups, I kind of believe in dismissing that freedom (to some people saying goddamnit is actually more offensive than what those two men said). The other option represses freedom of speech and expression. I feel that the more valuable freedom. That’s my opinion, so of course I’m going to argue for it. If you have a reasonable counter argument then I am open to it. The argument that it will turn away women is moot unless new data is also present supporting that argument, as it has already been addressed in my original argument.
Trav,
Please look at Domah, the only person here agreeing with you. Please look at the wildly twisted worldview this person espouses. If that does not give you pause and cause you to reflect on your contribution here, I really don’t know what will.
You are imagining excuses while dismissing people’s lived experiences and familiarity with both feminism and sexism. In short, you are failing at rational thought. You act as if you have some personal investment in convincing us that nothing sexist happened here and Richards was in fact the one behaving badly. You’re doing it while glossing over the real harm being done to this person. That’s sexism. No one here doubts your convictions. They are just wrong. Yes, morally, legally and in every other sense.
Funny, seeing as how this is coming from a regular contributor to a blog known for espousing radical feminist views.
domah@518:
1. I don’t think it’s a bad thing for anyone to be interested in fields that allow for interpersonal communication and social dynamics. Of course, software is one such field. I have spent all day coordinating between coders, support personnel, QA, and business managers. Our focus when hiring developers is communication skills.
2. You assume that the disinterest in CS on the part of women is inherent to women. But the suggestion here is that women are subtly discouraged their entire lives from being in STEM fields. And this is absolutely true. Yes, universities themselves try to get more women into STEM fields but that’s just because universities are full of liberals and feminists. The rest of our culture actively suggests to women that they’re more suited to “interpersonal communication and social dynamics” –even women who aren’t are told these things!
I overheard a conversation on the subway last night. Two women were talking and one talked about having a CS degree. The other one was surprised. “But you had friends and went to parties and stuff!” It blew her mind that someone could simultaneously have a social life and be a CS major. She really seemed to think that the only way anyone could deal with STEM subjects is to hole themselves up in the library and be a friendless loser. That is one of the ways in which our culture discourages women from going into STEM fields.
traversedavies @503
And therefore would be thoroughly incompetent in your role as representative for your company in public and thus should probably be eliminated from that position.
Especially if you have a long history of inappropriate behavior or poor performance that this was just one in a long list of. Oh hey, looks like that was the exact story of why his company decided to fire him regardless of Adria Richards totally rational complaint (I mean after all, as you state HERE his behavior was undeniably inappropriate and misplaced).
So let’s see here, that just leaves the backlash and firing against Adria Richards. Now that you’ve noted that this sexist douchebag was “well he wasn’t sexist, but he sure was doing his job like shit”, what pray tell is your new current reason for hating her.
Hmm?
Cause if that is looping back to the part you just refuted or seems to be off grasping straws and suddenly shifting, you’ve just stumbled onto a nice FAT block of internalized sexism that you need to examine and deal with before you make a similar “mistake” at your workplace.
@zmidponk
This is the first argument on here that seems to have some merit to me.
I don’t agree with it, but I can see some merit to it. However, I believe that the combination of her having an alternate channel to contact the convention staff (verbally, if it was really a case of her having to be a hero for the little girl on the stage then clearly it was important enough to flag someone over) and the extreme disparity in reach (the two men had the range of their immediate voice, Adria has tens of thousands of followers) make that point not a terribly compelling one. If I call my friend an ashole while walking down the street it’s not a big deal, even if a few people here. If I rent a billboard calling him an asshole, that’s kind of a big thing.
domah@521:
This isn’t radical feminism. Saying so only betrays your ignorance.
There, fixed that for ya..
SHould read “who aren’t good at these things”, in reference to interpersonal communication, etc.
And even with the universities being full of liberals and feminists, they still have a hard time bringing women into the STEM fields. Perhaps there is something inherent to women that cause them to not like STEM. If that were the case, would it be bad?
I’d love if my GF could put down her cosmo’s for a few moments and read one of my Popular Science or Wired magazines, but despite my best efforts, I cannot get her to be interested in such junk. Maybe you are right, all those years of cosmo’s have brainwashed women into thinking fashion/society/social interactions are more important than science. Whereas some men seem more willing to forgo social interaction in the pursuit of science, that might be a higher price for a woman to pay.
@rr 403
Ironically this would probably never be a problem for me. I don’t make off colour jokes at work, or almost ever. I am known for being a bit of a flirt, but always in a polite and inoffensive way. I am also unfailing polite, and proper. I am passionate about my points of view, but when tone is taken into account not a dick about it.
What reason is there to assume it’s inherent rather than cultural?
Do you really think your GF was born to read cosmo or is it vaguely possible that she prefers cosmo as a result of her life experiences, i.e. the way she was raised and indoctrinated into our culture?
The idea that STEM fields and a social life are incompatible is itself a harmful myth that I’d wish you wouldn’t repeat.
The parallels between Adria Richards and Joan of Arc are greater than you probably realize, since Jeanne d’Arc was condemned to death not for fighting for her ruler and country but for defying propriety by wearing men’s clothes in prison. Furthermore, it was conveniently left out of her trial that she was doing so to frustrate verified rape attempts by the English soldiers who were her guards even though protocols called for female prisoners to be guarded by nuns. She was observed to be wearing two pairs of trousers secured by as many as twenty separate cords. A defence of necessity for rape prevention would have been valid.
Uppity! Self-protective. All her fault!
This isn’t quite true. Female rates of enrollment in STEM subjects has been on the rise. evidence
That fact in itself is evidence that the disparity is due to cultural reasons and not physiological reasons.
More evidence that feminism works. Check the date for the inflection point on the curve for female PhDs. The 60’s you say? Why would anything like that have happened in the 60’s?
domah @515
(grin)
Does baby want some attention? Does baby feel all riled up because the bitches aren’t soothing his ego so he needs to go and make his sacrifice to the toxic masculinity gods by “going into the lion’s nest” and “riling up some bitches” and “putting the boot in” over their “overreactions?
Does it silence the terror in your stomach? Does it really make you feel more like a man, or does it need constant reassurance? Do you find yourself constantly needing to seek out and diminish more and more women and separate yourself further and further from reality just to feel like you have anything left to be proud of?
Is society leaving you behind? Does the IT’S ALWAYS PROJECTION hurt? Does it leave you worrying as you forced to acknowledge more and more things you don’t believe and general society moves further and further away from you and more and more towards attitudes and uppityness you have always considered radical?
Is this really how you thought your life would turn out? Are you proud of your ability to harass women on the internet and beat down uppity bitches who thought they could call out some “good-natured fun”? Do you enjoy your allies, wanna be murderers and rapists? Do you enjoy your anonymity? How it lets you feel when you let women know that they aren’t welcome in “your town”? The power you feel when you’re hanging with your MRA buddies and chatting about how those bitches were wrong to leave you and see you as vile? Does that hood hide the shame of realizing what your behavior really is? What parallels they draw?
When you actively participate in the burning cross and do your duty to put the rest of us on notice of your little band of terrorists, do you really think that the story will play out any differently? Or are you just hoping to run out the clock a little longer and avoid the inevitable a few paltry decades?
Does it fill you on pride to know what you are, who you’ve aligned yourself with, who you chose to be? Is this how you think you finally become a man?
Cause, sorry, dude, you’re just a coward and a bigot using a temporary cultural advantage to feel like a big dog. And you get your kicks from wanting to see others in pain. To see them suffer.
You are not a good person, nor is anyone who ever has or ever will stand with you.
You are scum, because you chose to be, because you choose to continuously scummy actions and that is why you will die, alone, abandoned by all who could have loved you.
Fuck off and tag in the next one, like all the other cowards before you. And stew in the life that you chose to live.
Can’t say with any degree of certainty; however, evolutionary speaking, there is evidence to support that men & women’s brains evolved slightly different capabilities, with women being better at speech and communication and men leaning towards spatial & problem solving capabilities. Like the physical differences that differentiate men & women (ie size/strength vs. coordination/dexterity), one is not necessarily better than the other. Perhaps this is the reason men tend toward STEM fields and women tend toward other fields… or perhaps not.
She would say she was born to read cosmo. As for my opinion, I don’t know. Her and her large group of friends are certainly social and seem to have deep understanding of social dynamics. I don’t assert STEM and a social life are incompatible… however, I do assert that many many of the women I’ve come into contact with are just not as interested in STEM, though I think they would be very capable.
My reading of traversedavies:
“While I agree it was inappropriate for assholes like me to attack Richards for what she did, once assholes like me DID attack Richards, the company that employed her had no choice but to fire her because assholes like me attacking her ruined her credibility. That makes assholes like me RIGHT about saying she should be fired, and the fact that you can’t see that is why assholes like me have to keep being assholes like me until you get the point, or even better – go the fuck away and let assholes like me keep being assholes like me.”
I’m amazing at your ability to divine the future. Did you acquire that skill at the same time you acquired your radical belief system?
domah@535:
Cite the evidence if you’re going to claim it exists. I’m betting it’s every bit as circumstantial as the following “evidence” that men are better communicators:
“In the ancestral environment, men tended to specialize in hunting. This requires many hours of close coordination among hunters, especially when considering big game hunting. Therefore, evolutionary pressure would have made men better communicators than women, whose work as gatherers required no such close coordination.”
Many, many of them men I’ve come into contact with are just not interested in STEM. I know many women much more interested in STEM than most of the men I know.
But besides that, why do you think they’re disinterested in STEM? Could it be because we belong to a culture that suggests that school, learning, and especially math and science are uncool and boring things to do? Or do you think it’s all about the ovaries (even though there are obviously a lot of women interested in STEM and a lot of men who are not)?
@Rey Fox 423
I don’t actually think that only the woman needs to be called out. I think that the developers in this case were not really guilty of something bad. I think that using a bully pulpit with tens of thousands of followers is pretty bad, and it may not have been thought out, but it was also a really bad move for a developer envangelist, and that kind of role callse for a bit more restraint.
Cerberus: I believe it was Jonathan in the other thread who said the bit about going into the lion’s den when he flounced. I know, I know, all the paleolithic sexists are blurring together.
traversedavies@540:
I bet you overlook wrongs more egregious than this one every day. It seems to me the only reason you’re so focused on this is because it was done by a feminist woman.
If not, why is this so important to you? Why is this so more important than the companies firing people for stupid reasons or the rape and death threats? And if it isn’t more important to you than those things why are you so focused on this instead?
Remember back when William Dembski was giving his students grades for “websites hostile to creationism?”
Is someone giving MRAs credits for going and posting copypasta on “hostile websites?”
Speculating why this is the case really doesn’t do much. Sure, it could be women are not as interested in STEM because, like you point out, society deems math & science uncool and geeky. Perhaps for women, this is too high a price to pay, while for men, they don’t mind being uncool.
My main point remains. Once you take off your feminist glasses, and look at Ms. Richards as a person. It become easy to understand why most of the Internet is against her. Her actions (regardless of her sex) were just overboard. I know nobody on this blog will agree with that assertion, but it would do many of you good to at least understand why the majority of the Internet is against Ms. Richards actions.
daniellavine @539:
That’s also US-culture-specific. Women comprise much more of the population of STEM professionals in other countries – and girls do math/science as well or better than boys there. Genetics? I THINK NOT.
Starter article from io9: There really is no difference between men and women’s math abilities
@domah
yeah, who cares, right?
It’s always a tell.
Yes, let’s not forget the Good Old Days when it was obvious to all Right-Thinking People that wearing en’s clothing constituted heresy for a woman because God thinks Women Should Wear Dresses and Men Should Wear Trousers, unless they’re in the Bible, in which case they wear robes, which are basically dresses.
Sociologists have caught schoolboys from kindergarten (age five) and up trying to convince girls that they aren’t good at using computers and that the class computers are Boy Things, deliberately, because they want to hog the computer time, and that continues through middle school. Boys are often given more time on the computer at home. Boys get more attention in school. It doesn’t just happen naturally. It’s part of a sexist culture.
Domah@544:
Of the two of us, I’m the only one who has provided evidence for his or her claims. Therefore it seems to me that you are the one speculating and I am the one making inferences from available evidence.
Evidence for this? When did anyone do a head count?
I and others have stated multiple times that her actions were over the line. “Overboard” suggests they were absolutely beyond the pale — I don’t agree with that. I think they were inappropriate but not much worse than off-color jokes at a professional conference.
Pteryxx@545:
So much for “speculation”. That’ll teach me to be so US-centric.
@domah:
So, we’ve got some evidence for “cultural”. You have any evidence for “inherent” besides evo-psych just-so stories?
Assuming the article is correct, could it be sexism in Muslim countries such as Morroco and Tunsania actually promote STEM? The article seems to imply that sexism in Muslim countries is the cause of the higher test scores. If women in these countries are performing equal to their male counterparts, what does that say about sexism?
Pot, kettle, black. You need professional help.
domah @544
Yes, yes, don’t bother standing up for ourselves. Everyone hates us and we’ll deserve all the abuse that can be thrown at us if we stray out of line. Accept our little cage or our early grave and don’t ever work to change that which is broken.
If you didn’t think we were listening to that deafening bullshit before, what the hell gave you the notion that we’re going to be inclined to listen to it now that we have so many object lessons on why we need to continue fighting?
Do you think we’re as stupid as you?
I’m not going to comment on the others in this thread, but you have shown yourself to be quite a bit less intelligent. The drivel you spew is completely nonsensical.
domah@550:
The question is whether women are inherently better or worse at STEM fields. This is evidence that they are not inherently worse in those fields.
In other words, we’re not talking about the effects of Muslim sexism. We’re talking about the effects of American sexism using Muslim STEM culture as a point of comparison.
Even if the higher test scores were “caused by” sexism in some perverse way it would still indicate that the cause of lower involvement in STEM fields in the US is cultural and not biological.
domah@553:
If you’re admittedly poorly informed on the subject wouldn’t it make sense not to assert that women just naturally don’t like STEM fields? Because that’s what you did and that’s how we ended up here.
Again, you were speculating. I was countering your speculation with a valid argument. If you don’t want to be called on this shit don’t assert idle speculation as plausible fact.
@Jackie 485
I grew up in feminist culture… I grew up with very, very strong feminists. I saw as much bullshit, hate, vitriol, and crap, as I did when I was around my incredibly misogynistic grandfather (my mother was largely reacting to him with her level of extremism). Don’t fool yourself into thinking that all feminists are reasonable and all feminist stances are unassailable. Nobody has a monopoly on truth or right… given a choice I will take my mother over my grandfather, but would rather not have to deal with either. I want a world where a couple of geeky guys can make some stupid comments and not have 60,000 people shown their photos and told they are deviants, but where a woman who has to deal with demeaning jokes has reasonable recourse to deal with it, and where there isn’t a massive war over it… to be clear, I’m not on the side of people who issue death threats… ever. I’m not on the side of people who threaten rape… ever. I’m not on the side of bullies… ever. I don’t give a shit what gender someone is, if they are a bully they are a bully. Adria Richards acted a bully, it blew up in her face. She is no longer capable of being a developer evangelist because she has alienated the developer community by being a bully. SendGrid has very limited options for dealing with her, and chose the one that suited their bottom line best. I don’t personally wish that on her, but I see why they did it. When I ran my business I would have been pissed at her, but I would have tried to find an alternate role for here that was economically viable. If that failed, I would have let her go…
domah @554
Considering every last one of your points is IT’S ALWAYS PROJECTION based on transparent trolling and harassment strategies about making women feel better so you can feel more like a man, I’m more than happy to accept your assessment of me.
Fuck off, tag in the next one. Like we haven’t been doing this for days.
domah @550:
You’re misreading (as in, lying about) the article.
traversedavies@557:
I would think if that were true you’d know a hell of a lot more about feminism than you seem to know.
domah typed
Exactly! The radical notion that women are people. Gotcha.
traversedavies @557
Not that this matters as I’m just an invisible pixel to you, but:
Factually untrue. You have been on the side antagonizing Adria Richards and continuing the harassment campaign of those who seek to discuss her issue in desperate half-hearted untrue demonizations.
You have willfully and complicitly participated in a culture that is bullying at its core, that is and of itself an act of bullying both to her and other women in the geek community and have proudly stood on the side of those who have delivered rape and murder threats by continuing said abuse.
You may want to escape that and convince yourself otherwise, but your actions. Your real actions on this thread betray that you are not that person you think you are.
As I’ve tried to say multiple times before, take that, learn from it, improve as a person.
The choice is yours.
The lack of intelligence continues. Nothing but echo in that head….
Unsupported claim *floosh* dismissed as utter fuckwittery. Try links to real evidence. Every unevidenced claim you make is *floosh* dismissed before you post it.
Pot, kettle, black. No citations, nothing but attitude. What an abject loser. Your OPINION is drivel. Funny how you can’t/won’t argue the facts as you know you are wrong, so you have to try to bluff you way. Doesn’t work here, we get too many such fuckwits, so we are prepared.
Jafafa Hots:
Excellent translation and summary. It also has the beauty of brevity, unlike one traversedavies who just can’t seem to stop spilling his stupidity all over the place.
Speculation is all you have. Otherwise, you would have several links to the evidence in every post. Speculation is for MRA fuckwits, who know they don’t have evidence, and have to fake it with attitude. Which is what you are doing.
@daniellavine 495
So, ad hominem it is then. You are a petulant whiny child who doesn’t have the level of comprehension needed to… wait, that isn’t true. You are a person. You actually seem reasonably intelligent… but you also seem to have a lot of preconceptions which I find problematic. So, I’m going to explain why I said public sphere instead of professional environment. People work everywhere, of many different genders and races. In fact, if you are outside of you home and in a city you are probably within hearing range of multiple people who have both ears and a job. For those people, the bar is a professional environment. For the most part servers are going to be the kind of people who roll with it while at work, so the odds of you getting in trouble while at a bar or restaurant are low… but they hear shit you would not imagine. Should they be forced to put up with stuff that Adria Richards shouldn’t? Are they somehow less important? I don’t speak differently in what is my professional environment than I do in what is someone else’s professional environment.
@Beatrice 498
Thing is, these guys didn’t make sexist jokes, they made dirty jokes. Do you know what gives that away to me? They didn’t actually reference females in a positive or negative light. They made dick jokes. Crappy, crappy dick jokes. Not funny, but not sexist. How do you have a dirty mouth that isn’t sexist if telling a dick joke that doesn’t involve women in any way is sexist? That would mean telling a dirty joke about women (as a woman) that didn’t involve men was also sexist, hell it would mean that any and all dirty jokes were sexist.
#557 traversedavies
Being around a few feminist doesn’t equal “growing up in a feminist culture”.
And vitriol? What’s wrong with that? I think that’s a perfect response to fuckers who think women are not fully human like men are and the fuckers that give such people cover. Like you
Adria didn’t act like a bully, you dimwit. Go look it up that word FFS.
Adria never called them deviants. No one here called them deviants. Why are you pulling this out of your ass?
Besides, you already live in that world. Get in touch with reality already.
Who cares about your irrelevant (making you irrelevant) OPINION. Nothing but back it up. Pure drivel, lies, and bullshit. You are a proven liar and bullshitter. Everything you say without a link will be *floosh* dismissed out of hand. You brought this on yourself. You made yourself irrelevant, not us.
TRAVESTYDAVIES, FFS, YOU’RE A BLIND FOOL.
@Cerberus: Fucking Oppression, Man 506
There is no way I would support a joke like the one you mentioned, it’s bullshit, sexist and derogatory, exactly the type of joke I don’t countenance… as to getting fired for who you are: I admit to skimming some of the comments, but are you the transperson from above? If so, your situation sucks… I’m very sorry to hear about it and wish you huge amounts of luck. I know it’s a very large issue for the transgender community and hate that there are so many fearful people out there.
I don’t think that means you get to unilaterally decide that something is sexist, or even that a specific subgroup does. There has to be a reason test, there is no choice in that. Anyone can be offended by anyone at any time, so a reason test has to exist. If not, I can simply decide that I’m offended by the colour orange (and be truly offended by it) and cause people to lose their jobs. To me these jokes don’t pass that sanity test… while the one you had made against you above clearly does (if you can even call it a joke, more like a simple douchebag comment).
@beatrice 507
First, I’m not socially awkward and bad at being in public, which is what quoting in that way implies, I’m actually speaking about many people I know.
second… why the fuck not? I’m sorry, but none of the reasons given above actually change the fact that some people have a sophomoric sense of humour and a shitty concept of how well their voice carries. Shaming those people in front of 60,000 followers is bully behaviour, no matter how you try to disguise it as defending the world from sexism.
Why should be we believe a word you say, based on your lies and bullshit above. *floosh* dismissed as fuckwittery.
Cupcake, its the victims of harassment, not you (you are irrelevant remember). Who the fuck cares what you think, since you don’t.
Thanks, but I messed up one part.
“ruined her credibility.” should have read “ruined her credibility with assholes like me.”
It was short one “assholes like me.”
traversedavies:
Except that Adria Richards didn’t even do something as strong as calling them assholes, even though, quite frankly, they behaved like ones. You want to know what she did tweet about their actions?
‘Not cool.’
Even if I were to accept that posting this on Twitter was like renting a billboard, it’s more like renting out a billboard to highlight that your friend was doing something not cool, rather than actually calling him an asshole – and I simply cannot think of a more mild complaint than ‘that’s not cool’. And that’s leaving aside the simple fact that, if you wanted to spend your money doing that, providing you were not actually invading their privacy, and only documenting their public conduct, you have very right to do that. However, I find the analogy of renting a billboard to Twitter somewhat inaccurate, not least because Twitter has thousands of tweets of a somewhat similar nature to Adria Richards one – people posting pics of other people acting like dumbasses, but you don’t generally see a billboard on every street corner displaying someone being a dumbass, so if someone did rent a billboard to say this, it would be kinda unusual. This is one thing that points the finger so firmly at the uproar being sexist in nature – the only thing that makes Adria Richards tweet different is that it’s an uppity woman having the temerity to call out a couple of men’s behaviour as being anything less than perfectly A-OK.
@tarversedavies
Oh, and I should point out that, if you and your friend was walking down the street, publicly talking about how you would like to ‘fork people’ with your ‘big dongles’, if some people overheard, they would have every right to take your picture, post it on Twitter and comment bout how you were acting like a couple of dumbasses.
traversedavies@568:
You need to look up the meaning of “ad hominem”. I did not say your argument was invalid because you are a bullshitter. I said you are a bullshitter because your argument is invalid. That could be taken as an insult but it is certainly not an ad hominem argument.
Thanks for backing off the vitriol, that is seriously big of you. These sentiments are mutual, by the way. I think you are a reasonable person with problematic preconceptions.
I actually don’t have to imagine it because one of my best friends is a server and she tells me stories about work. This is a good point, although I will point out that professional standards should be expected to differ based on the industry. The entertainment and service industries obviously don’t demand nearly as much propriety as most other industries. Not only this but in your example the people responsible for most of the “shit I would not imagine” are customers whereas the involuntary audience are employees. Conference attendees are essentially peers. It is a very different dynamic. Finally, I’ll point out that food service is already a female-dominated industry (except management).
I myself don’t approve of the way most Americans treat service staff. I find myself getting rather angry about this on a pretty regular basis. You don’t have to lecture me about how badly my friends are being treated. I always try to treat service staff as full and equal members of society who are helping me get something I want. I’ll also point out that since food service is female dominated that this is still an example of woman being forced to endure a hostile workplace.
(Yes, despite being female-dominated the restaurant industry is really fucking sexist. I’d like that to stop too. I know, so strange that I’d have such a consistent position on this shit.)
traversedavies @573:
You’re missing a step: reporting. The person offended makes a complaint to someone familiar with complaint resolution and discrimination law. That officer or board makes a recommendation of disciplinary action. Nobody can just get offended in isolation and directly cause someone to lose their job, even in America. (Unless the offended person happens to be the offender’s direct supervisor, in which case it better hold up in court.)
I find it very hard to read that quote in a way that directly implies what you think it does.
Once again there’s this super obvious contradiction. If a sophomoric sense of humour is just something some people have and it shouldn’t be a big deal, then telling the people who run the conference about that in a way where other people can see the exchange shouldn’t be a big deal either. Remember that their names weren’t mentioned, nor was Adria goading her followers into taking any action whatsoever.
If on the other hand, they said something that’s a big deal, then it’s not just a ‘sophomoric sense of humour’ (as if that makes it allright and not something that person should be working at changing about themselves), and so much more important to report.
It’s assholes like you who actually make the world more difficult for people who have actual legitimate social skills problems. Guess what? Being an asshole isn’t an official diagnosis. It’s just being an asshole. And the more people like you conflate the two, the harder it makes it for people who have social skills problems to interact in public, because people will assume they’re assholes. So cut it the fuck out.
@Jackie, Ms. Paper if ya nasty 508
I am not actually excusing sexist comments. I am actually disputing that those comments were sexist. It’s my central thesis and I have yet find a counter to it. I have heard a number of people say they have countered me, but none of it has made it’s way to my eyes. I have seen people handwave, use false equivalencies, say that they are fine with ribald humour but not sexist humour, etc. I still haven’t seen anyone address the issue of it being sexist other than by claiming the dev admitted it was sexist, which didn’t happen.
I missed a bunch of the thread here, at one point I was responding from my e-mail and a lot of stuff just straight up got missed. Sorry, not intentionally ignoring points. That’s also why I didn’t start responding reasonably to the comments about quotes and the like for a bit. I was just linking straight from my inbox to the reply box.
carlie@582:
That can’t be said enough. I am so fucking sick of people simultaneously slandering ASD folks and excusing (themselves for being?) assholes.
@583 traversedavies
It’s too bad we don’t have clear nice demarcation lines between obvious sexist comments and comments that are in now way sexist and that context and tone are incredibly important to establishing this. Guess what, tough shit. When the people who made the remarks admitted to the remarks being sexist that should’ve been enough for you. It was enough for the convention staff that settled the matter and that should’ve been it. The fact that it wasn’t and that Adria Richards got such a severe vial shitstorm thrown her way is what by all accounts you should really have an issue with, yet here you are talking about comments outside their original context that the people who made them have already admitted to being sexist.
traversedavies @583:
Okay, what’s your justification for claiming it’s not sexist? So far we’ve had ‘because I don’t think it was’ and ‘because my friends don’t think it was’. Sometimes with ‘my friends who are women don’t think it was’. Is that it, or is there some other reason?
@Markita Lynda—threadrupt 511
I actually disagree with much of feminist theory, and much of the MRM… but not with the ideal of equality. To be clear… not with the idea that women face a number of issues that men don’t, that’s something I do agree with, or the idea that women have historically face a number of major issues. I don’t think patriarchy theory is a strong theory, it has some major holes (because there is so much less in group cohesion based on gender for men than it seems is let on by academia).
My first exposure to the MRM was through Glenn Sacks blog. I wrote a guest piece for him, a pro feminist guest piece. I have actually more death threats total for my MRM writing than my feminist writing, but some for both. To me it’s entertaining, but I see how it could be genuinely terrifying to many people. I decry them on the mensrights subreddit, but because I don’t also decry the idea of child support reform (not that I think there should be no child support, but the way it is administered and enforced is often very cruel) I can get listened to when I talk about how death threats, even as an in joke, are just fucking terrible. I think that what has happened is many people have picked sides, and are just on that side. I’m somewhat appalled by Adria Richards in this case, and more appalled by the death threats… but I have yet to find a single person saying publicly that those are okay.
traversedavies displaying yet more of his rampant fuckwittery:
@daniellavine 512
Yes, it is polite to address the comment you are responding to. So used to threaded and the way I was accessing things, that just didn’t happen. I apologize for that, my bad.
I think what she did was quite shitty. I think it was bullying. As soon as I find someone saying that the death threats are alright I will say much worse to them. The best I can say about the death threats is that I don’t think anyone who sends death threats on the Internet is likely to carry them out… they have never scared me, but that’s just me. However, there were a number of people here defending what I thought was pretty terrible behaviour (not in the same league as death and rape threats, but terrible) and that is what I am arguing against. I am also arguing that the type of joke reported in this thread really doesn’t merit the response, in my opinion.
473 Jackie, Ms. Paper if ya nasty
I was wondering when that would come up. I’ve not seen any of the usual suspects reflecting on their previous insistence that photos, tapes, certified declarations and other concrete evidence must be produced when women say that someone’s behaviour is out of order.
Funny, that.
ConDamn, what a time for my computer to freak out.
Continuing:
Every.
Single.
Person.
Who was actually involved in the event.
Says that:
a) the dudes were out of line
and
b) Richards was right
YOU
WERE
NOT
THERE.
You have FUCK ALL to say about what they dudes said. Seriously. Just fucking stop it.
I’ll address the issues rather than the idiots.
If I’m around people who are being annoying, inconsiderate, rude, or offensive, I’ll take action. I may tell them to shut up, have them thrown out of a theater, threaten to report them to HR, report them to HR, mock them, grind them into the dirt, or (dare I say it!?!) publicly shame them.
It is my choice. It is also my choice to decide what is too loud or too offensive.
Very often, I’ll shut people down not because they are being offensive to me but because they may be being offensive to others.
If I want to take pictures of these people and put them on the internet, pointing out their lousy behavior for all to see, I’m well within my rights to do so.
I’m a white gay male with issues. If I hear someone making jokes that I regard as inappropriate about blacks, hispanics, whites, men, women, the disabled or challenged, straights, gays, trans, atheists or even nuns, I’ll inform the offender and/or someone in authority. Jokes don’t have be about whites, or gays, or males to offend me. I can actually be offended on behalf of others. There is a lot of shit I won’t listen to.
One of the ways that people with some power love to exercise that power is by trying to make people feel uncomfortable and intimidated. That is what happens when two men sitting behind a woman start making sexual jokes. It really isn’t about the jokes – its about someone forcing someone else to experience an unwelcome intrusion into his/her life. It is a power game. It is usually deliberate and intended to belittle, harm, and intimidate. It is a form of rape.
She was correct to act as she did.
She would have been able to work effectively in her job.
“Most of the Internet” does not agree that what she did is wrong. I don’t know what “the Internet” thinks about this episode, nor do I care. A bunch of nasty boys can make one hell of a lot of noise.
@traversedavies #587
I see you responded to the beginning of Cerberus’ comment #506. Did you read the rest of it? I’m going to suggest you go back and read that shit again. It is very much what I experience almost daily as a cute little blond woman working as a mechanical engineer.
I’m also going to ask you to go read my comment from earlier asking if you have a job. “Don’t make dick jokes and sex jokes at work” is exactly as easy to understand as “Don’t play grab-ass with your direct reports”. There is no legal or moral debate on whether it may or may not create an uncomfortable work environment. The jury is in: it does. That jury has been in for a long time, dude. You are being so purposefully dense, it’s unbeleivable.
#589 traversedavies
You. Are. Wrong. By. Every. Definition.
I carry on my key chain a little thing that looks like a car security alarm/door lock remote but which is actually a video camera.
Started carrying it when cops in town started shooting handcuffed people in the back and confiscating witnesses cell phones.
Videoing/photographing in public is protected by the 1st amendment. There is NO expectation of privacy in public.
If someone is acting like a sexist ass in public, I might (never have so far, and probably wouldn’t be bothered to but MIGHT) take video of it and post it on youtube and tweet the link.
So yeah, horrible people like me MIGHT “publicly shame you” for displaying “socially awkward” “nerdy” sexism. And we have the law behind us.
Maybe a change in behavior might be in order if that’s so worrisome.
You miss the real point here. Adria hasn’t been villified or fired for speaking up, but rather for doing so in a napalm fashion – for posting a photo online of them. By showing how out of touch she was with the developer community and alienating the vast majority of it, she earned her firing because she rendered herself incapable of doing her job of “developer evangelist”. If developers are threatening your company, mass canceling services and DDOSing your site because of you, you have failed as an evangelist.
Don’t forget that. Adria didn’t get fired for speaking up, but for the method and the impact on her ability to help her employer. And lets not forget Adria past twitter history of making racist and sexist tweets that many find very “offensive”.
The men who she posted pictures of on the internet WITHOUT THERE PERMISSION HAVE RECEIVED DEATH THREATS and TORTURE THREATS. Or do they not count to you? Adria made a dick joke literally hours before while under her company and pycons hashtag on twitter before she got so offended by them mentioning dongle. This is the definition of hypocrisy. https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/518/615/faa.png
I find the above tweet racist and very offensive. What makes her definitions of offensive anymore valid then mine?
Two examples with out really even looking just in the past week. She said black people cant be racist, so I guess the gang of black people who jumped a random white person and uploaded it to the internet under “honkey hunting” are not racist? How about the case of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom who were raped and tortured by a gang of black people, obviously its not racism right? Holy shit saying black people can’t be racist is insane, you are giving the word a insanely convoluted description. Or maybe i’m just blinded by my privilege. This was done while claiming to represent sendgrid.
You might see nothing wrong with Adrias actions but a signification amount of people did who were also sendgrid customers and took actions to let the company know how they felt. I canceled my sendgrind account over this and I made sure that other sendgrid users knew the about the situation and gave them a letter to send to sendgrid letting them know that if they didn’t deal with this they would lose their business along with links to sendgrids competitors. I know at least 60 people sent that to send grid, and that was just from my efforts many other people took similar actions.
So, I have been trying to respond to everyone, and for the most part in a civil tone. I have decided to stop doing that, as it isn’t working out all that well. Instead I’m going to plainly, clearly state my case. Anyone who has any specific points they want to address is welcome to do so, I might respond, I might not.
So: I don’t think what those men said, as reported was sexist on the basis that it didn’t include any actual sexist content (it referenced wanting to fork a man’s repo, not a woman’s, and the dongle stuff was clearly meant to imply male genitalia, there was no reference of female genitalia). Context is of course everything, and we weren’t there, none of us. That means that we can’t judge how sexist it was. To those saying everyone admitted it was sexist: that is simply factually incorrect one developer apologized because he could see how it was offensive, not sexist. That was only the dongle joke by the way. The pycon folks weren’t even present and are having to take someones word. He said that he didn’t mean it to be offensive and apologized because it was. I also don’t believe that you automatically take the word of the offended party on whether or not they are right to be offended. Five seconds of reflection should reveal why I reject that idea. That deals with my point of view on that in a pretty complete way.
Adria Richards acted (intentionally or not) as a bully. She was clearly the one with power in this situation, being a minor tech celebrity dealing with two unknown devs. She publicly shamed them, in a way that whether or not they had done something wrong would have earned them a great deal of negative attention. I didn’t think, from her twitter post, that she was all that intentional about it, and passed it up as a minor fuckup that ballooned, but then I read the whole deal on her blog. At that point I couldn’t countenance it as simple lack of forethought, she wanted it to go to the whole world (or she mad it sound like that once she realized that fallout, so that at least it seemed like she was being heroic to those who bought her reasons).
Adria getting fired: There is talk from a number of companies right now of cutting conference budgets because of this incident. A number of tech firms won’t take her seriously ever again, and many developers will be scared to talk to her. Is this right? Doesn’t matter from SendGrid’s perspective. She can’t be a Developer Evangelist if a huge portion of the dev community views her as a pariah, even if they are wrong to do so.
Threats of rape, violence and murder: What kind of sick fuck advocates that? Sorry, but no… I don’t care who you think I am, just no.
General sexism: I am a member of the MRM. I have reasons for it. I have also written feminist opinion pieces, and I was raised by strong feminists in a very, very feminist environment. To this day my mother is somewhat disappointed that I turned out both male and straight. I don’t even have the good grace to be bisexual (although I believe sexuality is a continuum and that anything is possible, however I have never been attracted to a man… it seems relatively unlikely, but can’t rule anything out right?). I have far more female friends than male, my day job is as a programmer but I also do photography, I have a number of models who have told me they prefer working with me because I am completely non-creepy. In other words, if you were to meet me in person and we didn’t talk about this one topic you would probably think completely differently about me… even when I talk about MRM related topics (I have swayed a number of feminist friends to my point of view on the specific issues I am involved with the MRM because of). My total viewpoint doesn’t make sense for here, but I am trying to let people know that just because someone disagrees with you on some stuff, doesn’t need to make them an enemy. Assuming that because I don’t agree I’m an ignorant angry troll who hates women is weak. Assuming that I have to either support Adria or the people who threatened her is weak. She did wrong, and that is the point I was here talking about. If there was a place where people were saying she deserved death threats and I came across it, I would be there fighting against that instead, since I would see that as a more important argument… but I haven’t found that place and I did find this one… see, this one is linked everywhere, comes up really high when I search for her name, etc.
traversedavies@589:
Right, “not in the same league as death threats” and “doesn’t merit the response.”
So you’re objecting to people focused on what those guys did because it “doesn’t merit the response.” And yet you’re very focused on what Richards did. But in that case wouldn’t you also agree that the action “didn’t merit the response”?
That’s one of the reasons you’re getting as much invective as you are. You’re being somewhat inconsistent in this respect. Why focus on Richards instead of any of the other parties in the wrong here? That’s a question you’ve been asked numerous times. Why are you focusing on Richards’ disproportionate response and not the disproportionate response to Richards?
557 traversedavies
New entry in my thesaurus. ‘not cool’ = deviant. Good to know.
John Jackson, you are yet another in a very long line of assclowns who doesn’t have the slightest fucking idea of what you’re talking about and tossing shit all over the floor. Just *once*, why don’t one of you sterling assholes read before spilling more shit all over? Just shut up and read.
Well, we can cancel your ‘decent human being’ card.
@daniellavine 599
The answer to your final question is because I have yet to find someone who does defend the death threats. If nobody is defending it, then there is nothing for me to add. I think it’s kind of understood by anyone not actually send the death threats that they are terrible, and the people who are sending them are clearly fucking terrible people. I’m not going to let that influence my stance on what she herself did… although if I do see anyone who is defending her getting death threats I will tell them they are terrible people and should be ashamed to their core for not being a part of civilized humanity.
Well, that’s reality according to traversedavies. If traversedavies says that A is true and B is false, it doesn’t matter how much evidence there is that B is true and it doesn’t matter that there is no evidence nor any reason to suspect that A is true.
Most people would call that “lying”, but traversedavies calls it “telling the truth”.
@myeck waters 603
Wondering which of my comment you are referring to? I was making the mistake of not including username references and comment numbers for quite a while today, so I understand that it’s an easy mistake to make, and now being on the other side I’m seeing how confusing that can be… mea culpa once again everyone. Still, I’m unsure what point of mine you were addressing, so really can’t come up with anything meaningful in way of response.
@597 John Jackson READ THE THREADS
Death and rape threats against anybody is wrong. However, unless Adria Richards wrote them, she is not responsible for them. See how that works? I absolutely condemn anyone who did write one. That is never acceptable.
Read that back to yourself.
That quote is pretty much the standard sociological definition of racism.
Black people cannot be racist against white people. Prejudiced, yes; racist no.
If you don’t understand that you are insufficiently educated on the definition of racism.
Also, shame on you for contributing to Adria losing her job.
@myeck waters 603
One more detail… my nickname is traversedavies because my full name is Traverse Davies… feel free to use that if it feels more natural or you can do as Jackie has elected to do and use Trav, it’s my usual nickname since my name is a bit of a mouthful.
traversedavies@602:
So besides just the death and rape threats you don’t think there are enough people already criticizing Richards? I’m really curious as to why you in particular feel the need to pile on.
People here have made it pretty clear they have no desire to criticize Richards or see Richards criticized when she’s already been…let’s say more than adequately punished for her transgression in tweeting the photo of those guys. So why do you nonetheless insist on doing so?
I hope you saw my 579. I really do appreciate you bringing down the level of vitriol.
@Ogvorbis “Do you have a job? If so, read your company’s sexual harassment policy. You will find out that what they did is sexual harassment.”
Perhaps it was perhaps it wasn’t, I’m not arguing that point. One thing I can guarantee you now is that if I post on tweeter a picture of coworkers from the office who have said something that offended me, I will get a nice interview with the human resource person and well, we’ll see how it goes.
My employee manual kind of tells me to bring these issues to HR not to the internet, surely if you have a job too, you already know this, no?
@Kitterbethe 605
This is a pretty standard issue when people in the social justice sphere and people who are not come together. To most people the word racist means prejudiced against someone on the basis of race. This is a sane and logical definition. Many people in both sociology and the social justice fields use power+prejudice for race, and then when it’s pointed out that in the incidents mentioned by John Jackson the black people clearly had more power they start to include systematic power + prejudice equals racism. At this point most people have given up on the discussion, because redefining words like that leads to a complete lack of meaningful communication. I would go further. When a black man pointed a rifle at my head and said “Die white devil” in a country where white people were less than one percent of the population and had basically no governmental roles that black person was racist by any definition you can come up with that isn’t simply “black people cannot be racist because they are black”. Now, here’s the neat part… black people being able to be racist doesn’t make racism against black people in any way alright. It is exactly the same crime whether or not black people are also capable of racism, and is in every way just as heinous.
John Jackson@597:
Well if I ever have any business dealings with you you’ll forgive me if I try to get you fired for not minding your own business. By your logic your communication with SendGrid is cause for me to do so.
I know it doesn’t affect me in any way but neither did Richards’ actions affect you.
I think your unthinkning posts are quite shitty. No evidence links, no nothing by your OPINION. Which *floosh* is dismissed as irrelevant nonsense. Funny how just your OPINION can do you in. Now, a truly informed opinion…which will never happen. You’re too stupid to learn.
traversedavies@609:
In your example the black people are the ones who have power so that actually would count as racism. Please be consistent.
traversedavies, I don’t give a flying fuck what your real name is. You can’t even bring yourself to accept the version of events at PyCon that everyone involved agrees on, because somehow it doesn’t fit your version of reality.
Tough shit.
You have no case. That requires evidence, not OPINION. Your OPINION is dismissed as irrelevant. like you are.
Since you don’t evidence your points, you make no points. Your OPINION, like you, is irrelevant. You have trouble with that concept., being stupid.
@ traversdavies #598
What do you think everyone agreed was “offensive” or “inappropriate” about the “forking” and “dongle” jokes?
Jack Lewis functional idjit:
Gee, the conference was at what company? Gee, the complaint was turned in to conference organizers. Right group, don’t you think? If you can think?
@Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls 611
There has been no fact discussed in the entire thread. Neither side is presenting facts, this is a matter of opinion. What facts should I be bringing to what amounts to a philosophical discussion of base morality? Interestingly enough I could say that all women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and I would not be factually wrong, I personally consider that point of view wrong, but there is no objective wrongness to it, as morality is subjective. I could also claim that men are intrinsically evil and that it would be morally correct to abort ninety percent of them and keep the remaining ten percent as breeding stock, and that would not be morally wrong. To me these are both horrifying ideas, that should be discouraged as much as possible, but there is no facts that can dispute either of them.
traversedavies @598
The person who has spent the last several hundred comments finding any excuse to dismiss actual sexism and victim blame the woman for her abuse at the hands of the MRA community among others turns out to be…
An MRA douchbag.
Quelle surprise.
Gosh, seeing as how you don’t see the sexism inherent in the various incarnations of that abuser lobby, I am completely shocked to see the contortions you underwent to deny sexism and try and argue that Adria Richards was the aggressor in this exchange.
Fuck, are we getting the entire influx of disingenuous bad faith trolls from Manboobz or what?
John Jackson @597
And here’s the next contender in our Iron Man competition. Let’s see, looks like we’ve got a Ron Paul fanatic so yeah, totally a neutral perspective when it comes to the perfidy of women.
And this one actually acknowledges in their complicit involvement in the drive to have her fired over made up victim blaming bullshit. Good, it’s a step closer to honesty for our trolls and after the total 2000+ comments on this shit, it’s about time we actually started talking about the actual attitudes that are driving this backlash.
In fact, let’s discuss this intense desire by these insecure men to “put a woman in their place” whenever they are perceived as disturbing the natural order. Why it’s so intense and why they are driven to pull their penny ante tag-teaming demonization all over the fucking place.
The notion that a woman could dare question them fills them with intense fear and loathing and it’s only getting more intense now that they feel they are running out of “bastions” and have a few heads to show off.
So what does this say? How can we continue to slowly improve society such that these little temper tantrums no longer have this disproportionate power that they do?
I think one step is punishing SendGrid and PyCon for giving these forces a head to greater reward their terrorist inclinations. Make it known that the days when just worrying about the sexists is over and hold them to account for the law and what they knew to be right before a bunch of John Jackson script kiddies blew into town.
And most of all, if there is no smallness that women can engage in calling this shit out without being considered “fair game” by the MRAs, let us do nothing small again. Call it out, loudly, consistently, repeatedly, as often as you can stand and let’s change these societies for the better and more rapidly move the John Jacksons of the world to their inevitable end of crying for the loss of undeserved oppressive power.
Like we did with gay rights, let’s eliminate their ability to take heads once and for all and let these institutions know that we’re fed up of this shit. Not just women but all men who don’t want to be associated with the John Jacksons and traversedavies of the world. Who want to stop sucking and continuing, by silent complicitly, to keep us here in Suck City.
domah:
And there, for all the world to see is your victim blaming.
You’ve placed the blame for all of this squarely on Adria’s shoulders, despite the fact that everything was resolved by PyCon, to their satisfaction as well as Adria’s. Even the men involved acknowledged that they were wrong. Everything that came after that was not the fault of anyone in the incident. Adria did not cause the firing of Mr Hank (?). She did not *obviously* ask to be fired or to get rape and death threats. She didn’t ask for 4Chan to get involved. Simply put, those decisions were made by the individuals who made them. It really isn’t that hard. It is just like rape. The person who chooses to rape is the person who is responsible. No one else is. The company that chose to fire Adria made that decision, the 4chan fuckers, and those who think rape/death threats are a good response to women they don’t like speaking up…all these individuals/companies are the ones responsible. All this victim blaming and shifting of responsibility does nothing more than highlight how poorly some people understand responsibility.
Like you, domah.
Your comments mark you as someone who blames a victim for their misfortune. Instead of blaming the individuals who made a specific decision, you blame the recipient of the decision. In your world, if someone chooses to rob a bank and shoot the teller, it was the teller’s fault. You absolve responsibility from the individuals who have taken action.
Adria Richards is responsible for the Tweet and the pictures. Nothing else. Everything else was people reacting to her.
Why are you so intent on making them blameless?
What do you stand to gain by absolving all 4chan of their complicity in this shit?
Or Adria’s employer? They are the ones who chose to fire her. Instead of supporting her, which they should have done.
Or those fucking scumbag misogynist fuckers who called for her rape and death. That was not her responsibility. It was theirs.
Why can people like you not acknowledge the responsibility of the people who made the decisions?
Why are they not the ones to blame?
Why is Adria Richards to blame for everything that happened to her?
@myeckwaters 613
The content of the apology from MrHandy is here: http://danwin.com/2013/03/something-worthwhile-from-the-adria-richards-pycon-blowup/. He does not say that he was sexist, although he does defend Adria. He does not agree with what you say. I find he retelling more credible, but that is my opinion. Clearly yours is different. It’s too bad that there is no way for us to know who is correct.
Ugh.
He admits to being part of the Mens Rights Movement, which is more accurately called the Anti-Feminist Movement. They do not seek to pursue rights for men, they seek to trample women and silence them. If they had a shred of integrity and the ability to do a Google search without confirmation bias, they would see that Patriarchy Hurts Men Too, and they would side with feminists.
But no, they want to retain all their power, as if equality for women means they lose power.
Fuck.
At least this gutter trash, scum sucking, bottom dwelling human admits to what he is.
I Got Mine, Fuck You(tm)
@traversedavies 609
No. Mine is the sane and logical definition. Your move.
This is disingenuous. What is actually happening here is that people are providing more information to people who are failing* to get it.
Fact is: racial prejudice held when you are of the race which has systemic power and racial prejudice held when you are of a race which does not have systemic power are DIFFERENT THINGS.
It makes sense to have different words to describe them. It makes communication better!
Racism is what the first thing is and prejudice is a perfectly cromulent word for the latter.
* or pretending to
@Cerberus: Fucking Oppression, Man 619
You do know that manboobz is a parody site created by a feminist right? It’s actually got nothing to do with the MRM. If you were interested in knowing why I thought there were valid aims for the MRM I would happily explain, I can pretty much guarantee that it would not be what you think (I don’t think women are stealing all the jobs, or that they need to get back to traditional gender roles, or that men are naturally on top, or that men have always had the shittiest deal, I have a specific set of issues, some that have come up from my own life and some that I have observed, everytime I have given that list to a feminist as my reasons they have said that those are things feminism should be dealing with or that they are issues that don’t matter, and every time I have brought them up without reference to the MRM or prior to my involvement with it I was basically told to shut the fuck up…). For the record, I am not anti-feminist, in that I don’t believe feminism has won and no longer needs to exist, or that it was never needed. I have issues with some specific parts of modern academic feminism and some issues with some specific feminist thinkers, but not with a movement that is trying to achieve equality for women.
Given your lies and bullshit to date, why should anybody take the lies and bullshit you just said without a grain of salt the size of Alaska? That is what you get for not linking all your claims to actual facts. Your word is considered irrelevant, your OPINION is irrelevant, and you are irrelevant. Can’t deal with that cupcake? Your problem, not ours, deal with that elsewhere….
traversedavies @602
Like it matters to your disingenuous ass, but:
And so on and that’s just from some of the trolls who’ve stopped by in the last day or two on the other thread.
Beyond that, every last one of our trolls, you yourself included, have deliberately minimized, ignored, or asked to side-step the more important issue of her receiving rape and death threats and being hounded out of her job as part of an ongoing harassment campaign so they can all play the philosopher on the mountain smoking a pipe and asking “is not the more important question whether or not she’s a cunt who deserved it”.
By minimizing the backlash and diminishing the investment your allies have made in perpetuating that very real, very inhumane abuse against a black woman for being “uppity”, you and your fellow trolls have been diminishing and apologizing for those rape and murder threats. By demonizing her in the face of these death threats and participating in yet another “we’ve decided to destroy some woman, let’s storm every blog that mentions her so we can shut down people trying to talk about it with our afactual MRA terrorism” campaign, you’ve decided to provide social protection for those death threat makers and seek to encourage more of the same.
You’re not just a defender of the death threats like all the other trolls here. You’re a coward about it. Wishing to simply set up the situation of demonization and gendered violence and then step back in shock with a “now how did that happen”.
And frankly this same stunt has occurred so many damn times that we women are fucking used to it. We haven’t grown stupid over the last several dozen iterations, we’ve caught the pattern and we’re a teensy bit pissed about it.
So why don’t you take your faux concern troll act and fuck the hell off and tag in the more honest assholes from Team Douchebag.
When there are facts available, links to those facts are wonderful. You present no links. Your word, like your OPINION, is irrelevant.
@Tony! The Lonely Queer Shoop 622
Do you want to know why I joined the MRM? Because when I was on a DV forum that hadn’t mentioned being gender specific I mentioned being the victim of DV myself, and was put down or dismissed. This happened a lot. These were mostly feminist forums. I wasn’t saying that we should do more for male victims of DV, I was talking about my wife attacking me, and having to deal with that. However, I found a place that talked about male victims of domestic violence in a sympathetic way, it was a mens rights blog. I was on their briefly and I ended up writing a fair amount of pro feminist things, and a fair number of anti men’s right movement things. I was invited to do a guest post as a pro feminist writer, which I did. There was a lot of hate and vitriol, but there were also a lot of good, solid points. I listened (it’s a thing I do sometimes) and I didn’t have answers for those points, so instead I started to re-evaluate my points of view. In the end I didn’t end up moving that far from where I started. I still think there is a lot shit women have to deal with that is simply terrible and should not exist. I just realized that there is more stuff men have to deal with that isn’t fair than is usually acknowledged, and that the system doesn’t stack things as heavily in favour of men as is often depicted.
And we aren’t the least bit surprised you’re an MRA assclam swimming smegmarmalade sauce. We deal with enough of you loathsome assholes. Go somewhere else to keep convincing yourself that yes, being a misogynistic, sexist pisscake is absolutely vital, because who else is going to keep all those damned uppity bitches properly stomped on?
You are a filthy, horrible excuse for a human being. Empty and pulsing with the need to make sure that women remain being seen as not fully human, as somewhat functional, but only when they are on their knees.
Go on now, go get a room with domah, John Jackson, and the rest of your ilk, revel in smearing your shit all over each other while you crow victory!, look how we showed those bitches. I’d spit in your direction, but that would be much too generous.
Actually no. We have presented facts. You have presented only OPINION. Your OPINION is irelevant, you are irrelevant, and you need facts to actually have an argument. What a loser you are if you don’t understand the concept of honest and integrity, which means either you back up your OPINIONS, or you shut the fuck up. Because if you can’t put up,and can’t/won’t shut up, we know all you have is lies and bullshit. As you so soundly show with prima facie evidence….
traversedavies:
That stuff falls under Patriarchy Hurts Men Too.
traversedavies @609
And here we get the racism denial as well. Charming.
What a disingenuous little shit you are.
“She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position.”
End of story, traversedavies. Go home.
Way to not address any of the points I brought up and resort to personal attacks GG Cerb you are truly a master debater/troll.
@Kitterbethe 624
I did not say that my definition (well, not mine, the common usage one) was the sane and rational definition, merely that it was one.
Yes, a different word for prejudice based on race by the race in power could make communication clearer, if it were not already a word with a common predating definition. The reality is that the word racism had the common meaning first, and it is still the most common meaning. Now, I don’t begrudge using it differently in academic circles (I use the word theory differently from the lay meaning) however when that definition is used in the public sphere (like on twitter) don’t expect people to get it, which is something Adria Richards apparently did. This is a simple matter of agreement on terms. It should ideally preface any discussion, but is especially important when some terms are being used in a place where people not from that academic tradition can participate and are likely to misinterpret things. Either that or use the common term in those discussions (in which case clearly anyone can be racist, since it is simply holding prejudice based on race) and keep the academic terms for that venue.
@636
traversedavies
Oh look. More policing what Adria Richards is allowed to use Twitter for.
Get a different hobby.
traversedavies @621
Shock of shocks, a disingenuous MRA troll disregards the woman’s argument in her own words and even though it is supported by multiple sources, he only believes in the words of a man, because “they are the credible ones”. Well, not really, even then he disputes the parts where he agrees with Adria Richards characterization because “bitches are always lying, amirite?”
Ugh, hey, Traverse, what’s your opinion on “False Rape Accusations”, “Trayvon Martin”, or “Steubenville”. I want to know how much more of an asshole you are while we’re here.
Cerberus:
Naturally, after all, it’s only men who are human beings. It’s always so nice to get patted on the head and told to sit down and be quiet, like a good little bitch.
Why should we believe anything you say liar and bullshitter? If you can’t link to evidence, all you have is OPINION, and you and your OPINIONS are irrelevant. Why can’t you accept the truth? Too unintelligent perhaps?
traversedavies @625
A-no-doy! Hence why I was wondering if we were importing their trolls. I.e. the professional sexists from the MRA movement who spend their days, all their days camping on any feminist blog that has ever criticized them in order to “get back at the feminazis”. Surely, as a proud member of that slimebag you are more than aware that every single post at Manboobz ever written has at least one of you fuckers spending the entire post trolling everyone there on some random trail of disingenuous bullshit usually ending with “I tried to be fair, but I guess the feminists really are too big bullies to listen to reason”.
Which gets us to your “reasons”. Yes, I’m sure you’ve got “reasons”. Every MRA pile of puke has his “reasons” that “are ignored by feminism”, which turn out, uh oh, have never been ignored by feminism and in fact feminists seem to be one of the few groups working on the issue. Rape in prisons, child molestation and rape of male victims, battered victim resources for men, etc…
The few ones not covered are usually MRA made up bullshit like “hypergamy” or “the epidemic of false rape accusations” or “the legal system isn’t quite abusive enough to women seeking divorce from abusive partners”.
This combined with their habit of doing absolutely nothing on legitimate male issues, plus their reliable support in harassment campaigns of women deemed “acceptable targets” is why your movement is widely considered by its unfortunately true moniker of “the abuser lobby”.
That you see nothing wrong with belonging to them despite all the problems you mention in desperately trying to separate yourself from them is quite a large part of the reason why you just can’t seem to personally see the sexism inherent in what those men were doing and the sexist backlash against Adria Richards.
@Cerberus: Fucking Oppression, Man 633
Well, that’s interesting. At what point in what I said did I say that racism wasn’t a real and massive problem? I did say that if you redefine the word racism (as has been done in some fields of academia) and then expect everyone who isn’t part of those fields to understand your terms, and call them racist when they don’t, well that’s a problem. Perhaps you should ask my current stepmother about how racist I am, she will be kind of disappointed in me though, which would suck because she’s my favourite of the three. Or perhaps my first step mother, who would be pretty sickened by it. We are still very close, I call her kids by her current marriage my brother and sister. The first one is Jewish, the current on is black. The other one: I hate her with a fiery and unbridled passion (I have good reason). She’s white. I didn’t grow up in areas where white people were the majority, pretty much at all (I went to mostly black schools, lived in mostly black neighbourhoods, lived in a few countries where white people are exceptionally rare… in the town my father lives in the population is well under 1% white).
You don’t know me, you don’t know anything about me. I also don’t know you, which is why I refrain from passing judgement on you as a person. I disagree with a number of things you have said in one online comment thread. That is all I really know about you, and I suspect that if you and I knew each other in real life you would not dislike me as much as you think you would. For starters, I’m quite charming. Disarming and sensitive… I actually rarely judge people, and have friends from so many different backgrounds. I am more than comfortable hanging out in a gay bar, and while I avoided the one bar in the city where I currently live that had a reputation for beating the shit out of every white male who walked in the door I have never had a problem elsewhere. Who knows, maybe you would hate me… but so far everyone who has has been a member of the religious right… they just can’t seem to get on board with my whole “we are all just people, can’t we all just stop judging each other” deal.
John Jackson @635
Bwahahahahaha!
Yeah, no.
Listen, I know each one of you trolls on the carousel want us to reset the counter and start from Ground Zero with each one of you, but frankly, no. Sorry. There are over 600 comments on this thread.
The precursor thread has over 1400 comments.
You’re not the first special snowflake to come up with those arguments. You’re not even the fifth. We’ve not only debunked every last one of your claims, we’ve done so in over a dozen ways with huge amounts of facts. You want our fresh response to all that horseshit?
Then you’re welcome to actually do some work for once in your god damned life (yes, misandry expecting a man to actually do a modicum of work, rather than everyone dropping everyone to run and go service him by virtue of him holding the all-hallowed man card) and read over all 2000+ comments and see for yourself. I’ve suffered through it, so you can too.
Now tag in the next one and let’s move on. C’mon people, we got schedules to keep here.
Oh wait, did I say over 1400 comments, I meant nearly 1900 comments.
Believe us, no matter what fresh new brilliance you think you’re the first to deliver, a) it really isn’t and b) no you’re not, even a little, sorry.
Who gives a shit what the OPINION of a proven liar and bullshitter is? What you and your OPINION is is utterly and totally irrelevant to those who understand evidence. You have nothing to say to us.
If only there were some empirical research on sexual joking in the workplace.
From the abstract:
traversedavies wrote:
Actually, we know a great deal about you from what you’ve written – which is a far better metric of such things than what you tell people you are.
“For starters, I’m quite charming.”
“I am more than comfortable hanging out in a gay bar…”
“they just can’t seem to get on board with my whole “we are all just people, can’t we all just stop judging each other” deal.”
These three things alone put it beyond doubt that you are in fact a clueless, posturing self-absorbed, entitled douchecanoe.
@Tony! The Lonely Queer Shoop 632
That’s asinine actually. It really is. No, feminism has not had a great record dealing with DV against men… it has had an abysmal record. Do you think you are the first person ever to use that trope talking to me? Did you read what I wrote about how I got involved with the MRM? No, of course not… I share goals with some other people that we don’t feel are being addressed by feminism, those are mostly to do with issues that I was ignorant of until they were made very, very clear to me in no uncertain terms.
I was raised by feminists in about as strongly pro feminist an environment as could exist in the world. The problems that I took on as a small child were the ones that my mother approved of, like how boys couldn’t wear dresses. I still feel those issues do matter, although I actually don’t experience anyone in my day to day life who is on the other side of those issues anymore. This worked out poorly, since we had no money and were mostly living in very bad neighbourhoods. Do I know that I would have experienced less violence targeted at me had I been in more middle class areas? No, but I do suspect it (for the record, this isn’t racism, the white kids may have been the minority, but they were just as happy to punch me in the face over and over again). Despite that I didn’t turn against feminism… at any point. I am against it when feminism over reaches, when it turns from equality to this thread, to PZ Myers (although I was very, very upset with Dawkins on elevatorgate, it was a terrible logical fallacy, and I expected better of him). You people are what the backlash is against, at least for the most part. There are some exceptions, but FFS, figure it out. You are arguing in the public sphere…
Not to mention being classified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.
Well, the last 300 don’t really count.
Cerberus: Fucking Oppression, Man @624
I didn’t come from the precursor thread, and just moments ago someone post a link to it (not in response to me, in response to someone else). I did however know it existed from the moment you posted this comment, and was planning to look for it once I was done replying to a few things. Doing that now, however since it is pretty much my bed time I probably won’t get to replying to anything tonight… tomorrow is quite likely. Also, my life is kind of an open book, and you have my full name. I also go by logic11 a lot of places. Some of the things I say will piss you off. I tend to piss of religious fundamentalists, libertarians, dudebro martial artists, and certain feminists.
Who gives a shit about the OPINION of a confirmed liar and bullshitter, who can’t link to anything to save their life/reputation. Everything you say is considered as lies and bullshit. Making you and your OPINIONS irrelevant to any rational discussion. That is what you get for being stupid and not showing evidence.
Cerberus: Fucking Oppression, Man @624
Correcting myself actually, started on that thread, somehow ended up here, no idea how that happened… apologies. Still, didn’t see those responses and will look for them.
traversedavies @629
No, that sucks. DV is a real problem and it doesn’t stop being a real problem when it’s happening to men. You know who believes that and has been producing the vast majority of resources and information to male sufferers of DV?
Feminists.
You know who has been trying to counter social messages that men who are beat up are “weaker” or “deserve it” or “must be making it up” and have been the most successful force in making DV, all DV a subject for public conversation and legal movements.
Feminists.
You know who has been talking about queer DV and other non-normative DV even though antagonists of the movement have tried to use the issues to dismiss all DV concerns as fictitious or in aid of other anti-X-group agendas?
Feminists.
You know who has been going “yes, our battered women’s shelters are horribly underfunded and not enough to address the issues of everyone affected, male sufferers especially, we’d love to help committed groups get started and provide them with training, support, and models for setting up these sorts of structures for anyone interested in doing so”?
Feminists.
You know who has resisted all attempts to do so and instead bash feminists for not fixing the problem for them so they don’t have to go through all the steps of actually doing work? And who has fought to continue defunding and underfunding battered victim’s shelters and DV resources even though more funding would allow the creation of more gendered options, including resources for genderqueer and trans* DV sufferers (who have pretty close to nil resources overall)?
MRAs.
For some reason it proved much more important to them to punish bitches than actually do something for their principles. While feminists were more than willing to work with people who hate them for a living in order to address a real problem their current resources are unable to address adequately.
There is nothing redeemable there and many have gone and tried. All resources they have touched they have polluted and turned into swamps based around blaming bitches for everything that has ever gone wrong and never once have they put all that effort into addressing the legitimate issues that only feminists seem to be working to make better.
TRIGGER WARNING. I’m proud to be part of that fight providing more social support for male victims of DV, one of my close friends in college was a male victim of DV and I helped get him psyhcological and social support for dealing with the PTSD and feelings of guilt and minimization that brought him and fought against those professional sexists who attacked him for “being less of a man”. I’m proud to continue that fight for people like you.
I know this is a little off topic, but I felt this was very important to cover as DV is a critical issue that has so few resources available to all sufferers, but especially to male and queer sufferers and I didn’t want you to feel that was being ignored or minimized in the context of the rest of the thread.
rey fox @649
You know that thing about the SPLC isn’t true right? Look it up.
My Irony meter capped here traversedavies. Your post uses tropes like “But what about the MENZ!” and “Please believe what I say without any evidence” and “I’m really honestly a feminist! but I think Feminism is going too far!” and then complain about tropes? Wow.
traversedavies wrote:
Few things are less hurtful to decent people than knowing that those with privilege are angry at them for helping take that privilege away. Quite the opposite, in fact…
Traverse, I want to say something to you out of kindness: get out of the men’s rights movement, and get out now.
I understand how one.can feel bullied and hurt and abused, and the whole of society seems to tell us that men who are victims are weak, cowardly, disgusting and worthy of scorn and not sympathy. I’ve been there too. I can even understand how seeing how there has been at least some.awareness about violence against women that you might feel a sense of “but what about me? Don’t I matter?”
And you’d be right to.be upset, when it comes to being ignored as a victim. It’s wrong. But that doesn’t make it feminists fault. It’s toxic as Fuck masculinity ruining everything.
Now you say you see a place for feminism, and that’s good. But if you really believe that you need to abandon the Mras, because while they may make reasonable criticisms of prison rape or male gender roles, they are ultimately deeply antagonistic towards women, like the white poor who instead of getting angry at the banks blame black people.
I am sorry if you had a bad experience with feminism, it can be hard when people constantly use male abuse victims as a sort of totem to pretend that thus feminism is wrong and tempers can be short. But there are definitely feminist sites that are non dismissive. Here for one, but Captain Akward comes to mind ll. It is always deeply unwise to consort with people who condone threats, slurs, etc.
That is simple being stupid, and not watching what is being said to you, or the evidence conatined theirin. Your OPINION, like you, is Irrelevant. Deal with at offline.
Oh, yes we do, you fetid assclam. How do we know so much about you? You will not shut up.
@traversedavies:
Do you think it would help people understand your position if you linked to your articles defending feminism or criticizing the MRM?
Also, is there anything specific you know of that the MRM is doing about DV? You mentioned having found sympathetic people at an MRM blog but I’m not sure what else they’re actually doing.
Well, they’re not exactly your friends, anyway.
OK
traversedavies @642
Who isn’t hated by religious fundamentalists and libertarians?
Fuck, I earned that badge just by being born.
The only one trying to redefine racism on this thread in order to minimize its impact is you. Power+Privilege is kind of the working definition of an -ism. That’s why just having privilege is just called “privilege”. And that’s sort of your problem.
You’re “privileged” and in denial about it. You don’t want to acknowledge how your way of viewing the world has been affected by the benefits of being born in this country as a white, male, cisgendered individual and how that might affect how “welcoming” you find things like the SPLC-hate group MRA movement or the Tech industry or the backlash against Adria Richards.
In fact the staggering level of blindness to your overall complicity mixed with your steadfast argument against all evidence that you are a “good person” leads me to conclude that this is your main issue. That you mistake your privilege for “fair” because you want to be fair. And so assume false equivalences and unbalanced means of viewing the world are somehow fair and balanced assessments devoid of agenda or bias.
Sorry, but you were born into the same toxic soup as the rest of us, with unbelievable amounts of baggage that the continuing years will only lay more and more bare for you.
And you’re right, I don’t have much sympathy for disingenuous “centrists” trying to find the balance between “two extremes” and conclude that only X/n amounts of bigotry is the fair compromise position.(or in your case that X amounts of bigotry is the fair compromise because blah blah blah a black woman’s position is just inherently “suspicious”).
Good day and tag in the next one. Unlike you I have no interest in keeping track of anyone outside of this forum, because why would I?
Here’s one: you don’t know what the jokes were. Neither do we. The only ones who do were in unanimous agreement that they were inappropriate for the venue.
You therefore cannot argue that the comments weren’t sexist. There is no foundation at all for it. You’re flailing in quicksand.
True, but from reading their description, you aren’t too far.
Stop lying.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/a-war-on-women
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women
Pariah sites of the men’s movement: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites
They were not her co-workers you clueless (or dishonest) shit. If they were, she would have likely told HR.
They were co-attendees to a conference, so she sent a tweet to the conference people, who handled it according to conference policy, the men apologized and admitted they were wrong, she accepted that and all was fine…
…until MRA assholes who were not in any way involved butted their noses in and shitstains like you used the “nuclear option.”
Ass.
Funny how the trolls who can’t intimidate us, try to befriend us in order to concern troll us. Traversedavies is trying that inane tactic. Not succeeding from my point of view.
@Caine:
Technically, I don’t think he’s lying. If you go to the main list of groups, they aren’t there. Discussed by them in that issue? Yeah, sure. Classified as a hate group the way FRC is? Nope, at least not as far as I could find (I did try to postyour site list link previously, but it looks like the spam filter caught it).
He’s being very, very disingenuous though, even if he isn’t technically lying.
@traversedavies
Hypothetical situation. You’re walking down the street, making off-colour jokes to a friend about ‘forking’ someone with your ‘big dongle’. Someone takes your picture, posts it to Twitter with the comment, ‘what a couple of dumbasses’.
Do they have the right to do that?
If you say, ‘no’, then please explain under what principle you should have an expectation of privacy in public that trumps someone else’s right of freedom of expression, contrary to a well-established legal principle (in fact, exactly the same principle that legally protects the recording of police officers, even if some of them would prefer that didn’t happen). If you say ‘yes’, then you’ve just admitted Adria Richards did nothing wrong.
traversedavies @648
Oops, your mask slipped and a bit of Freudian came out.
So, there is a backlash designed to punish the uppity. And you are part of it, here to do your part to punish the uppity members of Pharyngula for daring to support that uppity Adria Richards who of course deserved the backlash against her because… propriety… uh, public sphere… um, tweeting is bad… er…. reasons that are good and besides I don’t trust her for totally not racist sexist reasons and who is anyone to say that we exist in a racist, sexist system that pervades around us and affects how we interpret certain actions.
Yeah, we’ve kinda sorta cottoned to all that, thank you very much. That the backlashes are post hoc justified by (to be determined laters).
And as an additional, I’ll note that for all those who want to deny that treatment of women for speaking out or arguing or in their day to day life changes by virtue of their female-hood, I’m a great counter-example. See, I was born into a male body and I’ve gone much of my life so far defaulting to the default in presentation and gendering. Once I figured out the no duh and started identifying and presenting as a woman, suddenly all sorts of shifts both online and in meat space. The online ones are fascinated because the same arguments and personality and qualifications are treated to one set of reactions and response when I was considered male and to a whole different when I’m considered female.
Yeah, it turns out the responses to me as female are more dismissive of my qualifications, more suspicious of my grasp on basic reality, more argumentative and easier upset by pushback, and subject to a greater degree of scrutiny and disrespect and gendered insults.
Shock of shocks. Turns out systemic sexism exists, hence the origin of harassment policies at conferences like PyCon, hence why Adria Richards couldn’t take one more piece of inappropriate sexualization and sexism, hence why Adria Richards is being given a backlash an Adrian Richards would never have received, hence why the MRAs are here crowing over their trophy and sticking it to the uppity women-type creatures daring to complain.
And that’s the issue how all this harassment and backlash is the same backlash about the same “problem”: uppitiness.
And deconstructing that backlash and reducing its false aura of universal acceptability of bigoted viewpoints is crucial to actually ensuring minority groups have full equal opportunity and treatment in our society.
@ Cerberus and the rest who resorted to personal attacks on me.
I decided to read the other thread and SURPRISE!!! Its the same thing I have seen here, both sides throwing out ad hominem attacks on everyone they disagree with.
Please address this point, it should not be hard at all. How can you say that it is ok to take pictures of random people and post them on the internet. It is her word vs theirs. Say I don’t like you, should I be allowed to post a picture of you all over the internet slandering you saying you said something racist, i’m not saying this is the case of what happened, but can we at least agree that it is wrong to post a picture of someone making negative claims with no evidence to back it up (which there wasn’t). She posted a picture of a group of people never specifying who made the “offensive statement” and subjected them to numerous death threats and harassment. Where am I wrong with my analysis please try to not resort to personal attacks. Say I see a hot girl at that pycon conference would you think it would be ok for me to take a picture of here saying I want to “fork her with my dongle”? I don’t think it would be acceptable behavior.
And just what is it that you’re doing? Are you under the impression you’re arguing in someone’s living room? Hanging out in the parlour, having a whiskey and smoking a cigar? You sound remarkably like Jonathan, in the primary thread on this subject. He was having a right fit over women having the temerity to talk. At all. In the workspace or in public. After all, we talk about all manner of icky stuff that no man would ever want to hear about. You betcha.
In case you haven’t noticed, people talk in the “public sphere” all the damn time. *gaspshockhorror* In cases of horrific misogyny, like that unleashed against Ms. Richards, yep, people are going to talk about it. It’s important to talk about it. However, as you don’t think people should be talking in the “public sphere”, you had best shut up. Immediately.
We can agree on lots of things. “Not cool” is equivalent to sexism or racism or someothersism – that’s not one of the things we can agree on.
If you take a picture of some of the competitors in a race and you describe them as second place and not placed? It might be a bit too direct for some tastes, but there’s nothing actually wrong with it. This is that kind of photo. Why? Because of the implied other photo (which might or might not yet exist) – a winner’s picture or people who are “cool” for this circumstance.
Learn the definition of the words I’ve bolded before you use them again.
Oh hell, you won’t bother… I’ll post it for you.
Your contentions have been answered too many times to count. You’re not being insulted randomly. The insults accompany answers to your BS contentions and result from your continued ignoring of those rebuttals and answers.
Domah:
In other words, Ms. Richards deserves it. Maybe you’d be interested in telling the harassers sending rape threats to stop, but since she committed “offenses” then forget it. She’s on her own. Only “good girls” deserve to be defended from rabid misogynists issuing death threats, and women who publicly shame men for making sexist comments are definitely not “good girls.”
Traversedavies:
Bullshit. I have a dirty fucking mouth and I make dirty jokes all the fucking time. Yet I’m not worried about being fired for “making comments,” because why? Because I fucking understand the concept of professionalism. Also, not that NOBODY in this story was actually fired for “making comments” so if you or any of your female colleagues are being fucking HONEST in claiming that this is their fear, then that reveals only the fact that you or they are really goddamn fucking stupid. Honestly, if they can’t figure out when to “make comments” and when not to, then maybe they SHOULD be fired because that’s just basic.
You know, domah, it’s almost cute how you simultaneously deny that you condone rape and death threats, and then condone them in the next sentence by suggesting that the rape and death threats were at least partially Ms. Richards’ fault because she was a “bully” and an “ass.” What you call being a “bully,” we call “identifying sexism when it happens.” Technically it’s true that if you don’t speak up against sexism, frightened misogynists will probably not target you with a wave of violent threats, but that’s hardly making the case for not speaking up against sexism.
Traversedavies:
Why do you keep repeating this as if it means something? Women do sexism too, like, all the time. The pertinent question is, on what basis do they disagree?
It’s not a stretch, and it does mean that Adria Richards was in the right. To me, anyway. Initially I thought that perhaps tweeting about the incident was a bit over the top but now I think it’s a pretty fucking effective way to fight back against sexism. Witness the frightened reaction of douchebros like domah and you. And all the douchebros who issued all those rape and death threats. Yes, you are on the same side, like it or not. You’re like the guys in the 60s who were like, “Well geez, EVERYONE agrees that murdering black folks who want to vote is way over the top, but let’s talk about how terribly RUDE those civil rights protesters are, I mean, they’re breaking the LAW! Don’t you have any respect for the law? What do you mean, I’m making excuses for the KKK?” Is there a Godwin equivalent for KKK comparisons, because, yes, I just went there.
Both you and we are proposing controls on discourse. You are pretending like your desire to force women like Adria Richards to SHUT UP about sexism is not a control on discourse, but it is. I believe it is immoral to put more controls on people objecting to bigotry than it is on people contributing it. Apparently you disagree.
What the what now? So, sexism is only sexism when >50% of women agree that it’s sexism? That’s just fucking weird. There’s research about sexism, how it functions, how to recognize it, and how to combat it, and the harassment policy in place at PyCon is consistent with that research. Maybe you should, you know, look into what the experts say about it. Because your method of identifying sexism is just braindead.
Domah:
After a couple of centuries of male scientists who were not compensating for their confirmation bias and motivated reasoning actively seeking evidence that women are less intelligent/good at math/good at whatever than men, such evidence has not been forthcoming. But you are not sure about it. Why is that? Still waiting and hoping that such evidence might be found?
So, your CS class was 85% men, and your reason for why that was is because the women in it were actually not interested in science and technology. Or perhaps you wished there were more women because they were not actually interested in science and technology. Either way, the main thing coming through here is your cognitive dissonance, because either way you look at that sentence, it doesn’t make a lick of sense.
Yup, obviously you’ve never actually met a feminist, but have been listening to MRA lies about feminists. Unless you meant that feminists would regard the gender imbalance—only 15% women—as a bad thing, in which case, yes, feminists would think that’s bad. But thinking it’s bad that women are interested in interpersonal communication and social dynamics? Nope, that’s your mistake—obviously the fact that feminists object to women being stereotyped as being into interpersonal communication has gotten twisted somewhere along the way (coincidentally in a manner precisely identical to the way in which devoted anti-feminists twist feminist positions) to mean that feminists look down on women who are interested in interpersonal communication. Your stupidity is not an argument.
Your willful ignorance is not an argument. The phenomenon is well-documented. The phenomenon is, of course, a phenomenon of social dynamics and society, therefore the experts who study this phenomenon are called sociologists. You’ve heard of social sciences before, right? Are you a social science denialist? Because that would definitely explain your willful denial of a very well-studied and well-documented phenomenon.
Yes, well, YOU can’t explain it because you are willfully ignorant. Try paying attention to what the experts say and perhaps it will be less mysterious to you.
Traversedavies:
Your desire to focus on numbers rather than the content of what is being “repressed” is telling. I favor “repressing,” or rather, “discouraging through various mechanisms of social interaction” speech that is hostile to the interests of minority groups, and encouraging speech that empowers minorities to ensure that their workplaces are not actively hostile to them. I think that simply relying on the sheer numbers of how many people are discomfited is frankly foolish. Argumentum ad populum much?
Further:
Ahem, cough, that argument was made in the OP by PZ. Can’t you read? That is in fact the double standard referred to in the title. Remarks made in a public place are public; yet people object only to Adria Richards making her comments public. Both sets of remarks were public, but the inappropriately sexual jokes get a pass, while the objection to the inappropriately sexual jokes are for some reason beyond the pale.
Reading further…
Domah:
So, yes, basically, domah IS holding out hope that the evidence that has eluded centuries’ worth of motivated searching by sexist men will someday be found. He’s got the hypothesis, now all he needs are some data.
Traversedavies:
You SAY that, but your actions betray that you don’t see much need to call out anyone BUT the woman.
If you think someone here disagrees with that, then you’re delusional.
“Bully pulpit”? Like, “Not cool,” and reporting the content of the jokes, that’s using a “bully pulpit”? The number of people who saw the tweet is irrelevant if joking about big dongles and forking repos is truly, to borrow a phrase, zero bad. On the other hand, if it is bad, then you have to abandon your defense of them and acquiesce to fitting your narrative more closely to the one offered by Richards AND the two men AND the PyCon developers.
This is objectively false. All you have to do is read Richards’ account, which, I will point out, has been quoted on this blog over and over again, to discover that it was in fact a well-thought-out decision. You may disagree with the reasoning that led Richards to make that particular decision, but to claim it was not well-thought-out is a flat-out lie. Don’t be a dirty fucking liar, traversedavies.
Only if you assume that the only people to whom Richards could possibly evangelize are exclusively douchebros who are too fucking stupid to act professionally in a professional setting.
Traversedavies demonstrates his amazing skill at knocking down straw feminists.
If this were true then you would not be so relentlessly focused on demonizing Adria Richards for speaking out against sexism. If this were true then you would simply not be defending her firing, because her company firing her in capitulation to misogynist harassment IS the very definition of sexism. Regardless of your opinion about the propriety of reporting inappropriately sexual comments via Twitter, Richards’ company’s own admitted reasons for firing her are indefensible unless you believe that catering to misogyny is a valid business strategy and ignore the fact that it was probably illegal.
Doing that in the middle of a presentation about encouraging women and girls to participate in STEM, disrupting other people’s ability to enjoy said presentation in peace, is definitely sexist. And, gosh, looking at Adria Richards’ account, it seems that that is exactly what they were doing; in fact that is precisely what motivated her to speak up rather than remain silent. The only way you can maintain this narrative that the jokes weren’t sexist just because the men weren’t going, “BITCHES, amirite?” is by ignoring the context. Hey, incidentally, you know who else loves to remove context in order to deny that something a woman claims is sexist was really sexist? Misogynists. When you do what misogynists do, you look like a fucking misogynist. Quelle surprise.
Shit, this is getting boring. Imma post this now and read the rest later.
Hahaha! Traversedavies is an MRA. It all makes sense now.
Manboobz is not a parody. It just documents and quotes what the male supremacists–excuse me, the “Mens’ Rights Activists”–do and say, and then points and laughs. That’s not parody, it’s straight-up mockery.
Well, there’s your problem.
SallyStrange:
Want to bet he thinks it’s run by a woman?
Well, if it’s not, then obviously it’s run by a mangina. No self-respecting manly man would ever take issue with disguising male supremacy as sincere concern for the well-being of men.
So just last month, Linus Torvalds used some extremely sexually graphic language in a reply on the Linux kernel mailing list that went way over the line in terms of standards of professionalism and maintaining a non-hostile work environment that we’re all expected to maintain in the corporate world.
I heard about his comment in an Ars Technica story, in fact:
Linus Torvalds: I will not change Linux to “deep-throat Microsoft”
“This is not a d**k-sucking contest,” says Linux’s benevolent overlord.
I’m not doing any Linux kernel hacking any time soon, so what Linus says or doesn’t say on the LKML is of no particular concern to me, but I find it interesting that clearly he has no intention of apologizing or toning it down any, and there doesn’t seem to be any obvious way for anyone to “report him for an HR violation” since he’s Linux’s sole “benevolent dictator” and therefore doesn’t seem to have to report to anyone on any sort of org chart.
I’m quite curious how many private emails Linus has ever received from people who thought his language inappropriate for a presumably professional mailing list. I’m sure he would just say that Americans are too hung up over sex and a harmless joke among
guysgeeks about “dick sucking contests” and “deepthroating Microsoft” is perfectly okay. But it’s not okay, really. I mean, I’m the opposite of easily offended, but for such an esteemed figure in the open source community to talk like that on a public mailing list doesn’t seem like a particularly welcoming environment for any newbie Linux kernel hackers, particularly for the female and/or gay hackers (would you like some homophobia with your sexual harassment today?).It isn’t like there’s negative effects of having our sexist culture which causes men to suffer too, it isn’t like men can benefit from increased equality across the board. It isn’t like the ideas we have about sex and gender could negatively impact men.
There’s no way. The patriarchy, which we don’t have despite evidence for it existing, cannot possibly be bad for the men.
John Jackson @671
Transparent lie. Great way to open, buddy.
*Crack* *Crack*
Okay, Douchimodo, let’s address your totally novel point of novelness.
…
Really?
You really want to pretend you have some global issue about this and it isn’t just about demonizing whatever she did because a woman who ever speaks out against an entrenched -ism must always be wrong (Fuck, I get enough of this sort of pathetic half-assery at work).
I mean, for fuck’s sake it’s a picture put on the internet. It’s not saying, “here’s this person’s home address and I’ve edited the photo so he’s headless and written ‘when I’m through with him”. It’s not a photo of his junk. It’s not a photo of him in undress. Nor is it an nonconsensual sexual photograph of them. It’s not a photo edited to threaten them for being men or with sexual violence photoshopped into it. It’s just a photograph of them at a conference.
On the morality spectrum, her action would be on the far left next to petting a kitten only half-heartedly while rape and murder threats and trying desperately to destroy her for existing as a woman would be over a good ways to the right next to cross-burning and talking in the movie theatre (Firefly fans know what I’m talking about, but I’m sure this will be the main argument in Douchey McNextInLine’s attempted “rebuttal”).
I mean, if you want to pretend that those are double plus hitler, you don’t get to then say everything else gets treated the same and raping someone at a conference (which happened to me, by the by) should be treated the same. No, it means that people like you should be placed in those eternity prisons from Doctor Who in such a system where we treat posting a neutral picture like a crime deserving this level of outright sexist hatred.
A) Ah this chestnut we also get in every discussion about rape. Funny how that also always has you fuckers deciding the woman must have lied about everything when that’s so rarely the case.
B) You’re right. It’s her word vs theirs. As in they were fully in their rights to tell their side of the story. As was the convention itself. In the same venues nonetheless. Which the trolls well know because they’ve been flooding the same “wrong” channels smearing and demonizing this poor woman and threatening her with all manner of shit to tell their side of the story.
Which is impressive, because I wasn’t aware that they were present for that event.
And you know what? At least one of the men (the one who was terminated) has spoken and told his “side of the story” and… he confirmed the same basic facts that she did. He said some unprofessional sexist dicking around in a really inappropriate venue when he should have been shutting up and watching the panel or else ducking out with his douchebro friend and he got called out on it by the Con. In fact, when he received additional punishment for unrelated problems at work (hey, you know what doesn’t get called out enough in this whole rigmarole? Capitalism and the way that firings are so much more traumatic for all parties because we don’t have a real safety net. Maybe if some of the professional trolls could have reacted to that instead of deciding women suck for existing, we could work together to change that part of culture where corporations have so much power over the life and death of people.), Adria Richards stood up for him and offered her support.
So let’s see here, con agrees with Adira Richards. Adria Richards agrees with Adria Richards and guys involved agree with Adria Richards.
So I guess the “he says” are random MRA trolls on the internet who hate women for being uppity. And look, despite the fact that they weren’t there, they got to make sure their story (a story not actually based in anything that happened, but rather their twisted assumptions about “what women are like”) was the dominant one all across the internet.
So… huh. Maybe we should have all listened to those who were actually there, hmm?
Is it wrong to post a picture claiming someone is a racist when they totally aren’t (I mean they once even had a black friend before he went all “negro” on them)?
Of course not.
I mean, for fuck’s sake, it’s the internet.
I guarantee there is somewhere on this interweb a post about how I fellate donkeys behind a wood shed and if not, give it a week. For fuck’s sake, there are people with very lucrative public radio and TV pundit salaries saying on actual news sites that the only reason people like me use restrooms is because we’re looking for children to molest. People get paid six-figure salaries entirely based on calling groups I belong to as an accident of birth all sorts of afactual monstrous bullshit.
And frankly, I’m almost a little offended that the worst you could think of was “someone calling me racist on the internet”. For fuck’s sake a) it’s the damn internet, b) yeah, it’s going to happen. Usually because you are being racist or supporting a racist system without thinking about it. Unconscious bigotry happens all the time. And you’re not interacting with the self-selected racial groups you’re used to, but an entire internet of experiences, and c) I mean really, in the context of this backlash? Oh no, the worst I can imagine is being called a racist, oh my fragile ego. Yeah, Adria Richards has not only been called a “n***er c**t”, but been the recipient of an unending deluge of rape and murder threats, postings of her home address, incitements of violence against her, direct attacks on her personally trying to destroy her, endless amounts of general racism and sexism, intense amounts of victim blaming and had her job terroristically targeted all to fire her illegally. But oh no, the worst you can imagine happening to you is “being called a racist”. Yeah, if we lived in a world where that would be the most I’d expect to encounter on twitter, then sign me up because we apparently live in a feminist utopia.
Oh no, she made an assertion with no evidence. Gosh, as someone who has read the other threads so thoroughly, I’m already sure you are aware of the fact that that isn’t true.
Why look here, it is her actual words where in she presents exactly what is going on and defends her case with actual arguments like you claim that she didn’t.
Oh look, just in case your finger was broken in the tragic farm accident, here is her words without the painful clicking and thinking:
But I’m sure you must have missed it when you were off busy AN INCREDIBLY DISINGENUOUS FUCK! Oh my fucking Bob am I sick of these transparent lies and bullshit and post hoc rationalizations. Just be honest about your fucking bigotry. A woman spoke back against sexist douchery and you decided to destroy her. It happens. A lot. Unfortunately often because you cowardly pieces of shit are frightened that the days you can keep producing heads to scare the rest of us away are coming to a close. That we will stop politely putting up with this passive-aggressive cowardly bigot bullshit and head games and actually demand to be treated as full and equal human beings. And fuck, will I spend every last minute of my life fighting for that. Fucking lying pieces of SHIT.
IT’S ALWAYS PROJECTION! It’s a truism with these disingenuous fucks for a reason people. Cause IT’S. ALWAYS. PROJECTION!
I mean, for fuck’s sake, this doesn’t even make any goddamn sense without projection. The people whose names we don’t even know and who have received exactly zero death threats and harassment but rather an outpouring of douchey support willing to take heads for the “suffering” they must have underwent were the real victims of the actual death threats, harassment, rape threats, and general bigoted violence and casual terrorism (because it’s not just terrorism when brown people do it) we sent to Adria Richards.
For fuck’s sake, you lying sack of shit. You are actually displacing the well-recorded crimes and harassment you perpetuated against Adria and translated it over to the men involved all so you could justify demonizing her.
I’ll repeat, you’re using your own crimes (and yes, I do mean crimes, harassment and death threats are fucking crimes, you goddamn assholes) to try and smear her at this point. What’s next, blaming her for hacking her site and trying to get herself fired?
But somehow we’re the liars. Yeah, no, there ain’t anyone but you and traversedavies dumb enough to fall for that transparent obvious bullshitting. So kindly go fuck off back to MRA Douche Mountain with the rest of them and whine about how anti-freeze-peach we are and send in the nest clown, cause this shit ain’t gonna play.
Fuck you. You’re a lying sack of shit (not as a personal attack, I mean as part and parcel of what you have demonstrated in your “argumentation tactics”) and a proud participant in a modern day cross-burning, so fuck your “call for civility” and the horse it rode in on.
You want nice? Earn it. Otherwise you can kindly fuck off back to your hole and cry about “how mean the feminazis were to you” like all the other lying sack of shit trolls we’ve been dealing with this… ever.
Say I see a hot girl at that pycon conference would you think it would be ok for me to take a picture of here saying I want to “fork her with my dongle”?
Well of course not, because that would actually be nonconsensual sexualized photography, i.e. rapey as shit. Hence why one is banned by PyCon’s Harassment Policy and your other example wouldn’t be. Really, it’s much the same difference of “am I allowed to stick my dick into some passed out bitch while she’s sleeping” vs “am I allowed to have sex with a consenting partner even if we consent to naughty stuff” vs “am I allowed to snub a classmate in a classroom because they said something rude to me last week”. Not just apples and oranges, but rape and apples and oranges.
Wait…
Hold up a second. Did you just actually just use that example about “forking someone with a dongle”, i.e. the exact sort of creepy rapey “joking” that Adria Richards just couldn’t take anymore as your example of “totally inappropriate behavior”?
…
Fuck you.
No, really, fuck your disingenuous horseshit. You fucking know. You fucking know because you’re here using it as your example that Adria Richards calling out these two fuckweasels was right and proper and that that creepy rape shit disguised as “joking around” is used to sexualize and minimize women in those spaces.
And yet you still pretend that she did something wrong, that she must have so you can hate her.
And you still want to have us all play Fairy Tale Pretend “save the soul of the undecided” with you because you just aren’t sure that sexual jokes are sexist and harassing and SHE DARED NOTICE, when you fucking well knew that she didn’t do anything wrong and the difference between wrong and right.
And you chose anyways, despite that, to align yourself with the fuckwits of the world and come perpetuate that abuse by trolling us with this transparent bullshit and you can’t even bother to fake being ignorant about life like traversedavies?!?
There are no words to describe you, what you have chosen to be, what you represent in terms of the sickness in toxic masculinity that leads fucking sociopaths like you to kick women you know didn’t do anything wrong just to prove you’re “one of the boys”.
I hope you live the life you deserve. I hope you get everything you’ve ever earned. I hope that your future is created by everything you’ve done in your past. I hope that for you deeply.
But in the meantime, now that you’ve fucked up this badly why don’t you just fuck off back to your hole and call in the next piece of shit, because I guaran-fucking-tee you are DONE.
Good day, sir, and please Bob, let the door hit you so soundly on the ass it leaves a mark.
All
those fossilsthat evidence was planted bythe Devilfeminists to trick us.SallyStrange:
Now, now. Domah has said repeated that she didn’t deserve it. He just thinks that maybe everything is her fault, and therefore she deserves it. You know that’s completely different things. The first is a horrific position for anyone to take, and the other is justifiable as “karma” or something. He certainly has not contradicted himself even once in this thread.
John Jackson:
You know, we’re an intelligent buncha people. I’d like you to know just how often we hear this particular piece of idiocy from idiotic assholes such as yourself. It’s argumentum ad hominem, a logical fallacy. You, like most assholes tossing shit bombs all over the ‘net, seem to think that “ad hom” is a synonym for insult. It isn’t. Now, this is not, by far, the worst thing you’ve said. Compared to most of what you’ve said, it’s fairly meh on the scale of egregious shit. That said, I wish, just once, that this particular piece of idiocy was not part of the usual screed on “Hi there, I’m a loathsome asshole who wouldn’t know decency if it bit me in the nose and here’s why!”
The moment another asshole keystrokes “ad hom attacks”, it’s a tell. A tell that you’re a know nothing jackass who is about to bloviate their stupidity all over the place. So, if you take away nothing else, learn this much: argumentum ad hominem is not latin for insult.
SallyStrange:
Oh yes, of course. I keep forgetting about that whole mangina business. So many slurs to remember anymore.
Another great and insightful rant from Cerberus! Betcha the MRA’s don’t read it though. It’s almost, like, they’re solidified pus or something. I’ve seen slugs with more sense.
You guys are hilarious! You do what could be used in a book as the definition of ad hom attacks WHILE YOU ARE TRYING TO CLAIM I don’t know what ad hominem is. Seriously look at what your typing, its ridiculous the amount of hate you guys have while supposedly trying to fight it.
Caine, Fleur du mal, read what you just typed, its is the definition of ad hom. You do realize that right.
Caine
That’s pretty much par for the course, though. All the trolls on a particular topic always seem to be reading from a script, the only difference is which one; here we get the AVfm script, in biology threads you get the Gish script, in economics the Rand one, but there’s never any real variation within types.
Cerberus682
Damn, you’re on fire the last couple days. There’s really nothing I can add to that but my admiration.
John Jackson 688
And once again you prove Caine right. Ad Hominem:A shithead like you must be wrong. Not Ad Hominem:You’re wrong again, shithead. Here’s why. Guess which category the insults you’ve been receiving fall into, shithead.
Assorted other trolls:
See the first part of this comment. Think about why it might apply to you. Then fuck off and learn something, so in the future you can make cogent and reality based arguments.
[meta]
John Jackson, you are a vacuous ignoramus.
(But you’re not hilarious, you’re pathetic)
Quoting Dal
“And once again you prove Caine right. Ad Hominem:A shithead like you must be wrong. Not Ad Hominem:You’re wrong again, shithead. Here’s why. Guess which category the insults you’ve been receiving fall into, shithead.
Assorted other trolls:
See the first part of this comment. Think about why it might apply to you. Then fuck off and learn something, so in the future you can make cogent and reality based arguments”
You are using Ad hom to justify your ad hom in a way that doesnt even make sense. I love it.
JJ you seem to be the classic carbon copy idjit troll, you don’t get to redefine language to suit yourself. Amuse yourself by all means by being continually wrong. I’ve read more coherent trolls before you. 1 outta 10
John Jackson:
We’re down to the truly idiotic specimens, I see.
Look, O fool: when you actually make an argument, then perhaps a response to such might be fallacious.
John Jackson:
You love being ignorant, placing your ignorance on display, then puffing up with pride over it? Well, whatever floats your boat, Cupcake.
Not only do you not understand logical fallacies, you haven’t yet managed to present an actual argument, rendering a so-called “ad hom attack” impossible. You are all argumentum ex culo, I’ll give you that one.
Ok, quoting cerberus here. text in brackets is my responses.
Thanks for responding.
Transparent lie. Great way to open, buddy.
(Wait so your saying i’m missing some important insights I skimmed it the first maybe 100 post were semi interesting but it quickly degenerated, I don’t need to read though pages of name calling on the internet.)
Please address this point, it should not be hard at all.
*Crack* *Crack*
Okay, Douchimodo, let’s address your totally novel point of novelness.
(I heard name calling takes lots of intelligence.)
How can you say that it is ok to take pictures of random people and post them on the internet.
…
Really?
You really want to pretend you have some global issue about this and it isn’t just about demonizing whatever she did because a woman who ever speaks out against an entrenched -ism must always be wrong (Fuck, I get enough of this sort of pathetic half-assery at work).
(She posted someones picture on the internet with out consent that portrayed them in a negative light, resulted in someone losing their job. I think that is worse then dick joke. If the situation was somehow reversed I would feel the same way, I like many people in the tech space value privacy, this is why this is an issue to anyone. Do you really think anyone would give two shits about this story if it wasn’t brought to the internet.)
I mean, for fuck’s sake it’s a picture put on the internet. It’s not saying, “here’s this person’s home address and I’ve edited the photo so he’s headless and written ‘when I’m through with him”. It’s not a photo of his junk. It’s not a photo of him in undress. Nor is it an nonconsensual sexual photograph of them. It’s not a photo edited to threaten them for being men or with sexual violence photoshopped into it. It’s just a photograph of them at a conference.
(That portrayed a group of people in a negative way that was taken with out consent)
(
On the morality spectrum, her action would be on the far left next to petting a kitten only half-heartedly while rape and murder threats and trying desperately to destroy her for existing as a woman would be over a good ways to the right next to cross-burning and talking in the movie theatre (Firefly fans know what I’m talking about, but I’m sure this will be the main argument in Douchey McNextInLine’s attempted “rebuttal”).
(She cost someone their job and brought them unwanted attention/harassment over a dongle joke, which she her self made just hours before. Try to attack like I somehow condone rape death threats and racism is disingenuous)
I mean, if you want to pretend that those are double plus hitler, you don’t get to then say everything else gets treated the same and raping someone at a conference (which happened to me, by the by) should be treated the same. No, it means that people like you should be placed in those eternity prisons from Doctor Who in such a system where we treat posting a neutral picture like a crime deserving this level of outright sexist hatred.
It is her word vs theirs.
A) Ah this chestnut we also get in every discussion about rape. Funny how that also always has you fuckers deciding the woman must have lied about everything when that’s so rarely the case.
(So are you are for convicting someone on no actual evidence, rape is a terrible thing but so is wrongly sending someone to prison because of he said she said. Are your really going to say it never happens, and that all women are just so pure and good that no one would ever lie about rape and if she says it it must be true? I can pull up tons of examples of this if you really want me to.)
B) You’re right. It’s her word vs theirs. As in they were fully in their rights to tell their side of the story. As was the convention itself. In the same venues nonetheless. Which the trolls well know because they’ve been flooding the same “wrong” channels smearing and demonizing this poor woman and threatening her with all manner of shit to tell their side of the story.
(Your right as well, but if she was so offended she should have done something, anything that didnt involve bringing it to the internet with out their consent, do you see how things can turn out when they are brought to the internet, lets say one a few of the guys were identified, do you seriously believe that would be a good thing to have more people dealing with death threats and harassment?)
Which is impressive, because I wasn’t aware that they were present for that event.
And you know what? At least one of the men (the one who was terminated) has spoken and told his “side of the story” and… he confirmed the same basic facts that she did. He said some unprofessional sexist dicking around in a really inappropriate venue when he should have been shutting up and watching the panel or else ducking out with his douchebro friend and he got called out on it by the Con. In fact, when he received additional punishment for unrelated problems at work (hey, you know what doesn’t get called out enough in this whole rigmarole? Capitalism and the way that firings are so much more traumatic for all parties because we don’t have a real safety net. Maybe if some of the professional trolls could have reacted to that instead of deciding women suck for existing, we could work together to change that part of culture where corporations have so much power over the life and death of people.), Adria Richards stood up for him and offered her support.
( I have seen nothing that showed someone involved has said anything on this matter, I can claim to be Osama on the internet ,until I see hard evidence that someone has spoke publicly about this I can not see how you can be positive its not just a troll. Mr-Hank has no photos and has given no interviews just a random post claiming to be involved, the first time he has ever posted anywere, please correct me if i’m wrong.)
So let’s see here, con agrees with Adira Richards. Adria Richards agrees with Adria Richards and guys involved agree with Adria Richards.
So I guess the “he says” are random MRA trolls on the internet who hate women for being uppity. And look, despite the fact that they weren’t there, they got to make sure their story (a story not actually based in anything that happened, but rather their twisted assumptions about “what women are like”) was the dominant one all across the internet.
So… huh. Maybe we should have all listened to those who were actually there, hmm?
(THis whole thing is retarded, no one should be commenting on it at all this should have been delt with at the conference and I would have never heard of Adria and would not be arguing on the internet instead of studying for my chem exam. Who brought this to the internet? If they were convicted of harassment and fired over the what happened at pycon NO ONE WOULD CARE. When you bring petty issues to the internet everyone can get involved and share what stupid opinions they have. IMO everything else is irrelevant, it was insanely stupid to bring post the group pictures to the internet with out consent. )
Say I don’t like you, should I be allowed to post a picture of you all over the internet slandering you saying you said something racist, i’m not saying this is the case of what happened, but can we at least agree that it is wrong to post a picture of someone making negative claims with no evidence to back it up
Is it wrong to post a picture claiming someone is a racist when they totally aren’t (I mean they once even had a black friend before he went all “negro” on them)?
Of course not.
I mean, for fuck’s sake, it’s the internet.
(Exactly and reasonable people shouldn’t bring minor issues to the internet, he said dongle that is not some massive affront to women everywhere.)
I guarantee there is somewhere on this interweb a post about how I fellate donkeys behind a wood shed and if not, give it a week. For fuck’s sake, there are people with very lucrative public radio and TV pundit salaries saying on actual news sites that the only reason people like me use restrooms is because we’re looking for children to molest. People get paid six-figure salaries entirely based on calling groups I belong to as an accident of birth all sorts of afactual monstrous bullshit.
(If someone took a picture of you and posted to their twitter/blog insulting you with there employers info on the pages I promise you I would alert their employer and let them know that if this isn’t addressed they would lose my support, if you faced serious negative consequences over what someone posted about you with out your consent I would make sure everyone I could knows exactly what someone who is allowed to represent that company in a public manner is doing.)
And frankly, I’m almost a little offended that the worst you could think of was “someone calling me racist on the internet”. For fuck’s sake a) it’s the damn internet, b) yeah, it’s going to happen. Usually because you are being racist or supporting a racist system without thinking about it. Unconscious bigotry happens all the time. And you’re not interacting with the self-selected racial groups you’re used to, but an entire internet of experiences, and c) I mean really, in the context of this backlash? Oh no, the worst I can imagine is being called a racist, oh my fragile ego. Yeah, Adria Richards has not only been called a “n***er c**t”, but been the recipient of an unending deluge of rape and murder threats, postings of her home address, incitements of violence against her, direct attacks on her personally trying to destroy her, endless amounts of general racism and sexism, intense amounts of victim blaming and had her job terroristically targeted all to fire her illegally. But oh no, the worst you can imagine happening to you is “being called a racist”. Yeah, if we lived in a world where that would be the most I’d expect to encounter on twitter, then sign me up because we apparently live in a feminist utopia.
(Show me someone who is traceable making death threats, racist sexist w/e comments while claiming to represent a business and I will make sure they lose their job and go to jail. )
(which there wasn’t).
Oh no, she made an assertion with no evidence. Gosh, as someone who has read the other threads so thoroughly, I’m already sure you are aware of the fact that that isn’t true.
Why look here, it is her actual words where in she presents exactly what is going on and defends her case with actual arguments like you claim that she didn’t.
Oh look, just in case your finger was broken in the tragic farm accident, here is her words without the painful clicking and thinking:
(She called a group of people out on the internet and posted their pictures THAT IS MY MAIN ISSUE. They have no ability to defend themselves in real time and it is very easy to ruin someones reputation, IT IS WRONG TO POST PICTURES OF PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET WITH OUT CONSENT.)
What I will share with you here is the backstory that led to this –
The guy behind me to the far left was saying he didn’t find much value from the logging session that day. I agreed with him so I turned around and said so. He then went onto say that an earlier session he’d been to where the speaker was talking about images and visualization with Python was really good, even if it seemed to him the speaker wasn’t really an expert on images. He said he would be interested in forking the repo and continuing development.
That would have been fine until the guy next to him…
began making sexual forking jokes
I was going to let it go. It had been a long week. A long month. I’d been on the road since mid February attending and speaking at conferences. PyCon was my 5th and final conference before heading home.
I know it’s important to pick my battles.
I know I don’t have to be a hero in every situation.
Sometimes I just want to go to a conference and be a geek.
But…
like Popeye, I couldn’t “stands it no more” because of what happened –
Jesse Noller was up on stage thanking the sponsors. The guys behind me (one off to the right) said, “You can thank me, you can thank me”. That told me they were a sponsoring company of Pycon and from the photos I took, his badge had an add-on that said, “Sponsor”.
My company was a Gold sponsor as well.
They started talking about “big” dongles. I could feel my face getting flustered.
Was this really happening?
How many times do I have to deal with this?
Can they not hear what Jesse is saying?
The stuff about the dongles wasn’t even logical and as a self professed nerd, that bothered me. Dongles are intended to be small and unobtrusive. They’re intended for network connectivity and to service as physical licence keys for software. I’d consulted in the past with an automotive shop that needed data recovery and technical support. I know what PCMCIA dongles look like.
I was telling myself if they made one more sexual joke, I’d say something.
The it happened….The trigger.
Jesse was on the main stage with thousands of people sitting in the audience. He was talking about helping the next generation learn to program and how happy PyCon was with the Young Coders workshop (which I volunteered at). He was mentioning that the PyLadies auction had raised $10,000 in a single night and the funds would be used the funds for their initiatives.
I saw a photo on main stage of a little girl who had been in the Young Coders workshop.
I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so.
I calculated my next steps. I knew there wasn’t a lot of time and the closing session would be wrapping up. I considered:
* The type of event
* The size of the audience
* How the conference had emphasized their Code of Conduct
* What I knew about the community and their diversity initiatives
* How to address this issue effectively and not disrupt the main stage
(So that makes it ok to post someones picture on the internet? That story is associated to REAL people and it portrays them in a very negative light, remove the pictures of the guys and no one cares, but because she assumed it would be ok to post people pictures on the internet it is everyone’s business. And we still have only one side of this story. )
But I’m sure you must have missed it when you were off busy AN INCREDIBLY DISINGENUOUS FUCK! Oh my fucking Bob am I sick of these transparent lies and bullshit and post hoc rationalizations. Just be honest about your fucking bigotry. A woman spoke back against sexist douchery and you decided to destroy her. It happens. A lot. Unfortunately often because you cowardly pieces of shit are frightened that the days you can keep producing heads to scare the rest of us away are coming to a close. That we will stop politely putting up with this passive-aggressive cowardly bigot bullshit and head games and actually demand to be treated as full and equal human beings. And fuck, will I spend every last minute of my life fighting for that. Fucking lying pieces of SHIT.
(And I will continue to fight for privacy, gl with your fight. She posted someone picture on the internet with out consent and might have cost someone their job, I found out about it, if she was a man I would, and have taken the exact same actions.)
IT’S ALWAYS PROJECTION! It’s a truism with these disingenuous fucks for a reason people. Cause IT’S. ALWAYS. PROJECTION!
( What am I projecting? )
I mean, for fuck’s sake, this doesn’t even make any goddamn sense without projection. The people whose names we don’t even know and who have received exactly zero death threats and harassment but rather an outpouring of douchey support willing to take heads for the “suffering” they must have underwent were the real victims of the actual death threats, harassment, rape threats, and general bigoted violence and casual terrorism (because it’s not just terrorism when brown people do it) we sent to Adria Richards.
( The Death Threats are due to bringing a relatively minor issue to the internet while attaching pictures of real people to a story, THIS IS WHAT HAPPEN, EVERY, FUCKING TIME, and you somehow you think that it is justified to post people pictures on the internet with out consent. If something gains traction the internet were even a small amount of people dislike your actions you are going to receive death threats. Because they have anonymity and you don’t you are now a real person who they can attack. If one of those mens address’s and facebooks became public I assure you they would also get insane amounts of threats as well. )
“For fuck’s sake, you lying sack of shit. You are actually displacing the well-recorded crimes and harassment you perpetuated against Adria and translated it over to the men involved all so you could justify demonizing her.
( How have I harassed Adria? I play Battlefield 3 with one of the guys who was photoed by her and he has been harassed by a few people over this incident, you want me to get him to come here so you can call him a lair and “victim blame”, I linked him to this hopefully he will respond. He is one of the reasons I got involved with this. If letting a company know you strongly disagree with the actions of one of there employees and getting liked minded customers who also disagree with the actions to speak up? Thats harassment to you? Was Rush Limbaugh (Who I really don’t like) boycotts also harassment as well? )
I’ll repeat, you’re using your own crimes (and yes, I do mean crimes, harassment and death threats are fucking crimes, you goddamn assholes) to try and smear her at this point. What’s next, blaming her for hacking her site and trying to get herself fired?
(I made death threats to her? Why don’t you call the police and let them know that because death threats are a crime that I don’t support. What evidence do you have that I made death threats? People make death threats on the internet because if you have half a brain you will never be caught. It doesn’t make it right but what are you going to do?)
But somehow we’re the liars. Yeah, no, there ain’t anyone but you and traversedavies dumb enough to fall for that transparent obvious bullshitting. So kindly go fuck off back to MRA Douche Mountain with the rest of them and whine about how anti-freeze-peach we are and send in the nest clown, cause this shit ain’t gonna play. ”
(Who said you were a lair?)
Fuck you. You’re a lying sack of shit (not as a personal attack, I mean as part and parcel of what you have demonstrated in your “argumentation tactics”) and a proud participant in a modern day cross-burning, so fuck your “call for civility” and the horse it rode in on.
(How so? Your the one projecting now.)
You want nice? Earn it. Otherwise you can kindly fuck off back to your hole and cry about “how mean the feminazis were to you” like all the other lying sack of shit trolls we’ve been dealing with this… ever.
(Read what I wrote again I will apologize if you can point to one time anything has been addressed)
Say I see a hot girl at that pycon conference would you think it would be ok for me to take a picture of here saying I want to “fork her with my dongle”?
Well of course not, because that would actually be nonconsensual sexualized photography, i.e. rapey as shit. Hence why one is banned by PyCon’s Harassment Policy and your other example wouldn’t be. Really, it’s much the same difference of “am I allowed to stick my dick into some passed out bitch while she’s sleeping” vs “am I allowed to have sex with a consenting partner even if we consent to naughty stuff” vs “am I allowed to snub a classmate in a classroom because they said something rude to me last week”. Not just apples and oranges, but rape and apples and oranges.
(So we agree POSTING PEOPLEs PICTURES ON THE INTERNET WITH OUT CONSENT IS WRONG. No your comparison is retarded, a valid one would be POSTING PICTURES ONLINE WITHOUT CONSENT because of X reason vs POSTING PICTURES ONLINE with out consent for Y REASON, it is not something reasonable people do especially when you are portraying people in a negative light over a relativity minor issue.)
I don’t think it would be acceptable behavior.
Wait…
Hold up a second. Did you just actually just use that example about “forking someone with a dongle”, i.e. the exact sort of creepy rapey “joking” that Adria Richards just couldn’t take anymore as your example of “totally inappropriate behavior”?
(POSTING PICTURES OF SOMEONE ONLINE WITH OUT CONSENT is inappropriate, I used an example that I thought you would agree would be wrong I do not see any difference between the example I gave and what Adria did. BOTH INVOLVE POSTING A PICTURE OF SOMEONE ONLINE in a way that most reasonable people would agree does not make them look good.)
…
Fuck you.
No, really, fuck your disingenuous horseshit. You fucking know. You fucking know because you’re here using it as your example that Adria Richards calling out these two fuckweasels was right and proper and that that creepy rape shit disguised as “joking around” is used to sexualize and minimize women in those spaces.
(And you agree it would be wrong for me to take a picture of some random girl in my class, work w/e and post a picture and make comments about her like “dat ass” or w.e? Why do you think that is wrong?)
And yet you still pretend that she did something wrong, that she must have so you can hate her.
(She is in the tech space she should have had the common sence to know what happens when you bring stuff like this to the internet with real peoples pictures attached to it, also I found her claiming that only white people can be racist “offensive”, not sure what you would call a gang of black people jumping a white girl and uploading the video called honkey hunting. )
And you still want to have us all play Fairy Tale Pretend “save the soul of the undecided” with you because you just aren’t sure that sexual jokes are sexist and harassing and SHE DARED NOTICE, when you fucking well knew that she didn’t do anything wrong and the difference between wrong and right.
And you chose anyways, despite that, to align yourself with the fuckwits of the world and come perpetuate that abuse by trolling us with this transparent bullshit and you can’t even bother to fake being ignorant about life like traversedavies?!?
There are no words to describe you, what you have chosen to be, what you represent in terms of the sickness in toxic masculinity that leads fucking sociopaths like you to kick women you know didn’t do anything wrong just to prove you’re “one of the boys”.
(What I see is this, Adria took a minor issue to the internet and cost someone their job while claiming to represent a company, I made sure the company knew that we don’t find that type of behavior acceptable.)
I hope you live the life you deserve. I hope you get everything you’ve ever earned. I hope that your future is created by everything you’ve done in your past. I hope that for you deeply.
( Sorry not going to happen, I will be the first to admit that I am about as privileged as you can get, my parents pay for college and I work summers at my dads company for much more money then I deserve. I would be stupid to not take advantage of the opportunity’s I have.)
But in the meantime, now that you’ve fucked up this badly why don’t you just fuck off back to your hole and call in the next piece of shit, because I guaran-fucking-tee you are DONE.
(My “holes” are probably 3x nicer then yours.)
Good day, sir, and please Bob, let the door hit you so soundly on the ass it leaves a mark.
(You come of looking like a hypocrite, You are saying sometimes its wrong to post pictures of people on the internet without consent but sometimes it ok cause I think its justifiable for this reason. I’m sure someone could “justify” posting pictures of random girls on internet as well.)
Caine
You addressed nothing, absolutely nothing, for some reason you thought I didn’t know what ad hom was so you gave the definition of it and a perfect example of a collection of ad hom attacks. Brilliant if I had any doubt (I didn’t) before now I am sure what you are doing is ad hom! Then you claimed that my argument (that you never addressed btw) was argumentum ex culo which turns out is just more ad hom attacks by you. Seriously do you think you are contributing anything? Gratz you can name call on the internet, you are now on the same level intellectually as the people making racist remarks and threats to Adria, are you proud?
It would make more sense to just ignore me then waste your time making stupid attacks.
Dal
And once again you prove Caine right. Ad Hominem:A shithead like you must be wrong. Not Ad Hominem:You’re wrong again, shithead. Here’s why. Guess which category the insults you’ve been receiving fall into, shithead.
Where was I told why I was wrong? A correct example of what actually happened would be
Ad Hominem: A shithead like you must be wrong. ALSO Ad Hominem: You’re wrong again, shithead. Here’s why, your a shithead. Both are ad hom a lobotomized gorilla could recognize this. (See I can name call to, its not actually Ad Hom though because I actually rebuked you.)
gratz you can call names on the internet you have basicly the same level of ability to interact with people who you disagree with as the people making racist sexist insults to adria
I pity the shame you bring on your teachers with this weaksauce you call ‘reading comprehension’. ‘Argumentum ad hominem’ isn’t merely name calling (And in fact, ‘ad hominem’ doesn’t mean that either, it means ‘by person’. If you don’t want to associate yourself with the logical fallacy this has nothing to do with, try just saying ‘personal attack’). Argumentum ad Hominem is name calling in place of an argument. If you make an argument, and additionally insult someone, you haven’t done it! Conga rats. Looks like you, however, didn’t make an argument. So…
You’re seriously going to pretend that perving on someone is like just taking a picture? I guarantee you nobody minds the shots in the newspaper – even when they’re taken without permission.
Jesus fucking fictional Christ, those two idiots kept digging?!
I notice Domah never did work up the guts/integrity/honesty/coherence to answer my #179, or my #307.
What the fuck happened at #695? That’s a particularly special case of verbal diarrhea.
Not one link there, so the whole shitload of of unevidenced OPINION is *floosh* dismissed as abject fuckwittery not worth reading. OPINON per se is worthless. The evidence to back up those OPINIONS, which support the arguments, is of importance to see if the OPINION isn’t simply lies and bullshit.
John Jackson:
<snicker>
(It is true that anything what you say is naught but parenthetical)
Jayjay, did you learn computer typing by crayon? I’ve seen more comprehensible kitty litter art.
@ thumper1990
@ Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
Vast majority of 695 is not mine, but Cerberus’s writing, They took the time to write it all so I responded in brackets () to what they wrote.
What links do I need to provide to beat it into you that only thing I really care about is the FACT that Adria decided to put photos of a group of people on the internet, WITH OUT CONSENT portraying them in a negative light. This action is the catalyst to everything else that happened and why this minor event escalated. She could have made her post and points with out attaching real people who can be recognized to it. Try to show some empathy, if someone decides to attack you and post your image on the internet it is impossible to really defend yourself and accurately tell your side of the story with out subjecting your self to the chance of threats and harassment. Bringing petty issues to the internet attached to pictures of real people is fucking retarded, if you can not understand this you are a lost cause.
@Rutee Katreya
((( I don’t claim to be an expert of ad hom and defining random argument names for things, but your wrong and it is sad that you guys cant just admit it, ad hom describes what happened perfectly. I stated basically this
“The FACT is that Adria decided to put photos of a group of people on the internet, WITH OUT CONSENT portraying them in a negative light. This action is the catalyst to everything else that happened and why this minor event escalated. She could have made her post and points with out attaching real people who can be recognized to it. Try to show some empathy, if someone decides to attack you and post your image on the internet it is impossible to really defend yourself and accurately tell your side of the story with out subjecting your self to the chance of threats and harassment. Bringing petty issues to the internet attached to pictures of real people is fucking retarded.
”
That was what my original argument was, How does anything by the people who I accused originally of Ad Hom address it? Please show me. Does calling me a jackass sexist hate-filled retard shithead address that point because that is all that was done by the people I accused of ad hom. Soooo ya, try to show some intellectual honest and admit that its ad hom. Your only lying to your self. )))
)
I pity the shame you bring on your teachers with this weaksauce you call ‘reading comprehension’. ‘Argumentum ad hominem’ isn’t merely name calling (And in fact, ‘ad hominem’ doesn’t mean that either, it means ‘by person’. If you don’t want to associate yourself with the logical fallacy this has nothing to do with, try just saying ‘personal attack’). Argumentum ad Hominem is name calling in place of an argument. If you make an argument, and additionally insult someone, you haven’t done it! Conga rats. Looks like you, however, didn’t make an argument. So…
( I made an argument that was responded to by zero attempts to address any of the points I brought up, but tons of vicious insults. Then I spent like 5 post arguing about what ad hom is. Read what I accused of Ad Hom said and please show me where my argument was addressed in the Ad Hom post.)
You’re seriously going to pretend that perving on someone is like just taking a picture? I guarantee you nobody minds the shots in the newspaper – even when they’re taken without permission
(Your seriously going to pretend it isn’t? So who decides when it is ok to throw someone picture all over the internet with out consent for your own use? Your newspaper comparison is inaccurate, if the paper was doing a story on pedophiles and used your picture would it be ok? )
Jesus fuck, JayJay, learn to fucking blockquote. It’s right there, below the damned comment box.Your posts are incomprehensible.
[meta]
John Jackson: These [] are brackets, these () are parentheses.
And yet the men did not file a complaint. The governing body of the conference did not reprimand Adria Richards in any way. In fact, they thanked her for bringing it to their attention.
Adria Richards did not portray the men in a negative light. The men did that. She merely alerted those who could deal with their immature and sexist behaviour (behaviour that they admitted was wrong!).
She photographed the men in a public setting. She displayed the photograph in a public setting.
Doing quotes would be hard i’m on a tablet I will redo my posts in an hour once I get on my computer. I didn’t realize it looked that bad.
Listen you worthless coddled piece of shit… first you call sexism a “petty issue,” and then you use an outmoded term for a disability as an insult… you have perfectly demonstrated that despite your claim, you fucking DON’T have a clue what privilege you have.
Presumably your parents are putting your pampered ass through college in hopes that you’ll learn something. Maybe daddy is overpaying you in your nepotism job in similar hopes.
You have demonstrated that you’re unwilling to read the arguments that have gone before in thousands of comments – you demand the same explanations be spoonfed to you personally, and then demonstrate your conviction that the opinions you came here with (let’s call them what they are – prejudices) trump any argument so convincingly that you don’t even bother to consider them.
You want the arguments rehashed personally for you solely so that you can swing at them with your privilege bat.
You won’t read previous arguments, you won’t read links, you refute and deny evidence from studies using “knowledge” you access from your colon.
Let me explain something to you.
Not to be ageist, but among the people trying to educate you are people with decades of life experience more than you.
People who are women.
People who are men.
People of color.
People who are LGBT.
People who are from oppressed minorities.
People who have been raped.
People who have been sexually abused.
People who have workplace experience beyond their dad’s business.
People who have drafted sexual harassment policies.
People who have worked in Human Resources.
People who have run businesses.
People who have done research.
People who have been sexually harassed in the workplace.
People who are disabled.
People who have received death threats.
People who have received rape threats.
People who have dealt with the things you deny, some of them many times, some of them for many years.
Do NOT fucking come here and call sexism “petty.”
Do NOT fucking come here and use bigoted insults.
Do not do these things and expect people who know far more than you obviously do, and far more than I do to help coddle your self-centered ignorant ass, and expect your easily refuted “arguments” to hold sway.
Again… there is NO CONSENT NEEDED to take photos in a public place of people behaving badly and tweet them to those in charge of the even with the words “not cool.”
The fact that you compare that to photos taken with the intent to sexually objectify women shows what a classless, clueless and creepy piece of shit you are.
If a person making a MILD complaint about sexual harassment to those in charge is seen by you to be an expected catalyst to creepy scumbags making death and rape threats, and creepy scumbags BLAMING those threats on the person making the legitimate complaint, then you are blaming the victim.
You are PART OF THE PROBLEM.
Not part of the problem by “not being part of the solution,” but part of the problem by being part of the malignancy.
Do NOT expect your ignorant, privileged, sexist, victim-blaming and bigoted comments to get a warm response here.
We have dealt with far more honest and informed ignorant sexist asses than you.
I’ve stepped in things with more merit than your opinions.
@ Ogvorbis
They have not filed a complaint/lawsuit yet, and im pretty sure they have amended the code of conduct to make what she did is no longer acceptable, which I hope would be common sense.
We only have her side of this story, which should be a nonstory if she had the common sense not to escalate a minor issue by posting random peoples pictures on the internet with out consent. Obviously what she posted was not flattering to them and her blog post was even worse, they had no ability to defend themselves without opening themselves to the same type of harassment Adria is facing.
I can take a picture of someone at a conference and make the exact same claims Adria did. I can take a picture of someone I dislike and claim they are racist. I can take pics of random girls and draw dongles all over them and post them on the internet. If you think someone might object to you posting their image online YOU SHOULD NOT DO IT. Do you think these men wanted there picture to be put online?
Your arguments would still look bad if you used calligraphy.
Yes, you can indeed.
It’s funny that the moment it’s “girls” that are pictured, there must be sex and/or some form of sexualization. Damn, if only we had a word for this, or some scientific data explaining this phenomenon…
Actually, this is patently untrue, and has been debunked numerous times.
And yet Adria, and not the douchecanoes doing the harassing, remains the “bad guy”.
Yup. Common sense. Make it against the rules to call out sexist behaviour in a professional conference.
Perhaps the level of sexism at conferences if the conference code of conduct explicitly set up a twitter account to send @ tweets to in order to report harassment. That would be one way to handle it.
@John Jackson #704
Yes, but here’s the thing: they actually did something wrong. They got called out for it via Twitter, and admitted full well it was wrong. Adria didn’t do anything wrong, except for the subjective view that she could have handled it better, and she got rape and death threats.
How d’ya not get that?
Stop focussing on what Adria did. While you may not mean it that way, it comes across as “Well if she hadn’t done that she wouldn’t be getting the threats”. That’s called victim blaming, and it’s not cool.
Also, don’t use retarded, arsehole.
…Yeah you do. Don’t contradict yourself here. You are acting as if you are the only person who knows what Argumentum ad Hominem means.
Does your tablet not display wikipedia articles or something? It’s pretty basic stuff here.
That is an obvious lie. While she did do it without consent, that is obviously not the catalyst for this – there’s a reason you’re the only one whining about it, including the guys who’s pictures was taken. Consent matters, but so does being an asshole, also. Do you bombard the NYT or Fox News because they showed Ted Kazynski’s likeness without his explicit consent? Where was this outcry during the Casey Anthony trial? Don’t try to bullshit us here.
Sure thing, pal.
Ya didn’t make an argument at any point in this, you only asserted that someone else was engaging in ad hominem (which isn’t an argument so much as an accusation – in fact, you didn’t support that accusation with an argument).
Ayup, because sexual pictures and outright harrassment are different from an actually neutral picture (Actually neutral, not one that oh so happens to perfectly frame breasts or whatever’).
Ethical people, a group you apparently don’t belong to. Some measure of unconsenting photos has to be valid for reporting purposes – at its most extreme level, nobody will ever consent to a photo of them directly engaging in criminal actions, and those tend to be useful or important in reporting the news. This shit is never relevant to for instance, sexual pictures, so consent does. And if she’d gone on to take a bunch of pictures, without consent, it’d be harrassment. There are ways to do this, but a single shot that is just tied to a negative trait isn’t it.
Well, it’d be libelous, but it wouldn’t be wrong solely because it had my picture, it’d be wrong because it’d be libelous. If I were actually a pedophile (You know, like those guys were actually jerks), would you still be saying my likeness had to be protected? Answer: No. This is about a woman daring to criticize jackassery on the internet. I already know this one, because you don’t have this response about everything else. Seriously now, it’s not hard to find people who’s likenesses are plastered all over the public sphere without the consent of the person, and in far more intrusive ways than Richards did in saying these guys were jerks.
It’ll still look like shit, because you can’t argue for shit, don’t worry.
John Jackson, by claiming that all we have is Richards’ side of the story, has revealed that they are ignorant of the subject and haven’t even read the thread they’re posting in. Sad.
John Jackson, we have already seen a message from someone who was working for PyCon which supports Richards’ story.
We have also seen an apology from one of the dudebros in which he denied that they were intentionally being sexist but admits that their comments were inappropriate and totally supports Richards’ actions.
So you are either seriously ignorant on this issue, or have actually been misled. Either way, you should try to get better informed.
@ Jafafa Hots
I have received numerous death threats as well, in fact just yesterday someone on Call of Duty was threatening to rape my mother. Personally I don’t care about what ever you guys think right or wrong with society. My life is awesome and i’m pretty sure nothing is going to change that.
She wrote about it on a blog with their pictures on it, that’s not cool, pretty sure that’s a commercial purpose (Prohibited). You cant paint someone in a false light, we have no credible information on the photographed mens side of this story. Random people with no prior history posting anything who just show up one day are not credible.
Are you trying to miss the point, I take a picture of x in way that they don’t want with out consent vs taking a picture of Y in a way that they would’nt want with out consent. SAME FUCKING THING. It doesn’t matter if i’m christian taking a picture of a gay couple and uploading it saying horrible thing about them, or taking a picture of a ugly person and laughing about them spreading it on facebook or just a perv upload random girls to my site and drawing dicks on them I am using SOMEONEs image with out their consent in a way that most people would agree portrays them in a unflattering way. Why do you think this type of behavior is OK? If I see a transsexual would it be ok to put them on blast on my blog? How about a gay couple holding hands/kissing, some people, like it or not , find that just as offensive as a dongle joke, does that make them right? POSTING A PICTURE OF SOMEONE ON THE COMPUTER IS NOT A GOOD THING TO DO WITH OUT CONSENT, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE PORTRAYING THEM IN A NEGATIVE WAY DONT DO IT DONT DO IT DONT DO IT.
Adria posted the picture on the internet, that is why anyone gives two shits about this story. If she wrote on her blog with out the picture attached I wouldn’t have any issue.
I don’t just assume random people on the internet have reached some stage of enlightenment I have not.
I don’t care about “problems and solutions”, just like you don’t really care about the millions of starving children in Africa.
Myeck I know about both of these and I think mr-hank is a troll he has no history and just shows up claiming to be someone with no evidence.
I cant remember exactly what the pycon person said can you link it for me?
GeekFeminism is gathering most of the links, the statements by Richards and mr_hanks and both their companies, and background information. So there’s no excuse to keep whining about “only her side of the story” now is there.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/PyCon_2013_forking_and_dongles_incident
I think you made a wrong turn, the “Fuck all y’alls, I gots mine” blog is over there.
Who gives a shit about losers like you, who can’t put up, nor shut up? All you are is mouth.
JJ it’s only bad if a woman takes three pictures of slightly naughty dudebros and posts them on the internet, roight? Men MAKE inappropriate pictures of wimmen and post them ALL OVER THE INTERNETZ all the time and that’s OK because bitches aint shit, amirite? Ye gods, you’re a misogynistic fool.
Hey fuckwit, who the fuck made you president? NOBODY. Your self-appointed and unevidenced OPINION is *floosh* dismissed as fuckwit lies and bullshit.
Jon Jackson #720
But I sez it loadsa times, why no’a lissen a meeeee?! Waaaaaah!!!
@ Rutee Katreya
A lot of people agree with me, overhearing a dongle joke does not give you the right to photograph people and insult them on your blog.
Who are these ethical people who are the final deciders on who’s faces are allowed to be put and insulted on the internet with out consent?
I’m pretty sure overhearing a dongle joke is not a crime or harassment, if you want describe harassment in such a convoluted way then i’m pretty sure people are going to scream harassment tons of stupid shit . If a Christian finds a transsexual or gay couple offensive is he being harassed or just a oversensitive bigot? I have literally seen people describe that as harassment, are you going to start victim blaming ?
Show me one who is doing it with out the girls consent? I think that is just as bad as what Adria did, this just got more attention (gee I wonder why?)so i’m here.
You think this guy wanted his picture online?
Or Knox?
Or these guys?
You think Adria wanted to listen to dick jokes, forking jokes and assorted fuckwittery at a supposedly professional conference?
HEY FUCKWIT, if you are right, you should be able to cite case law to back up your claims. But, you lose, loser, as case law says otherwise. Your OPINION is *floosh* dismissed as lies and bullshit.
@ thumper1990
And yet you guys still think posting pictures of people on the internet with out consent is a good idea. See how this turned out for all parties involved? You want more of this, because this is not a one time thing. Similar shit will happen again.
Oh gee, how about the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission working from US civil rights law?
source
That’s exactly your problem, asshole. You’re pretty sure (if not dead certain) about things you’re completely fucking wrong about.
Again, you don’t know SHIT.
Taking a photo in public is constitutionally protected. NOT ILLEGAL. No consent needed/
Using that photo to say nice things is fine.
Using that photo to inform convention organizers of breach of rules is fine.
Using that photo to to criticize the behavior of the person is legal – it may be good, it maybe crappy, it may be rude, it may be a matter of opinion, but it is legal.
Using that photo to harass or with the intent to cause harassment of the person is actionable – can get you sued, and in some cases constitutes criminal behavior.
The fact that you can’t tell the difference between constitutionally protected freedom of expression (let alone positive and helpful versus negative and scummy forms of protected expression) and harassment shows again that your opinions are not only fucked up, but ignorant and incorrect.
That’s all DESPITE the fact that your sole focus is on a woman reporting improper behavior and not the improper behavior itself, and the fact that you continually and dishonestly deny that the men did anything wrong despite evidence to that fact.
You are so determined to call this woman a liar and blame HER that you deny the very words of the men you’re determined to defend.
Your opinions are factually incorrect, disgusting, and of use only as evidence of the garbage that fills your head.
Hey dipshit, show me any case were over hearing a joke/comment resulted in prosecution. I can’t show you something that has never been prosecuted because no one is stupid enough to take someone to court over it. There is also no case law regarding doing cartwheels on indoors you idiot.
Similar things have been happening for a long time.
Women will be treated like shit, harassed, and when they complain sexist assholes like yourself will pounce to defend your privilege of not being called on your shit.
We know this.
What’s the over/under on John Jackson coming out as an MRA?
Except it turns out making continuous dongle jokes and sexual forking jokes all through a panel on women’s issues turns out to be exactly harassment. We can tell that, because when Adria Richards reported them to PyCon per the con policy of harassment and PyCon investigated, they put an end to that shit and agreed wholeheartedly it was a breach of their harassment policy.
In fact, the men in question agree to the same.
And I see your response to me was to just repeat over and over again (with absolutely no awareness of how blockquotes work… which yeah, you deserve to be in the tech field, uh huh) that taking a non-sexual picture of someone in public breaking policy and posting it in a public space is somehow this egregious violation of privacy law.
Which it’s not. In fact, the legal protections are fully on the side of the photographers, which any real privacy activist knows, because they were hard fought over in order to protect the rights of people to photograph cops breaking the law.
So, you are fractally wrong, cling to a piece of bullshit post hoc rationalization which you already know is a desperate attempt to try and make noticing and reporting on douchebaggery be seen as “improper”, and overall, repeat things you know are lies in transparent bad faith because the only important thing is to try and poison the well against other women following in Adria’s footsteps or showing her public support.
You have nothing to offer and you don’t care about your “arguments”, so why should we?
Go fuck off and tag in the next one.
1. This is not a case of someone “overhearing” a joke, you lying piece of shit.
2. My referring to some things being legally actionable refers to absolutely NOTHING about this incident, but rather to using photographs as part of a campaign of sexual harassment – something that happened NOT in this incident, but only in some of the examples YOU gave earlier of behavior that you disgustingly declare as being equivalent to a woman reporting improper behavior.
Query: Which should we be more upset about? Mitt Romney calling 47% of Americans lazyrmoochers, or the fact that someone took a video of him(and his audience) without permission. Would rape and death threats against the video maker be reasonable? Afterall he didn’t just lose a job, he lost his one and only chance at the presidency.
@John Jackson
…what? I just… I don’t even… what? Are you saying that those people don’t deserve the negative publicity they have been subjected to? Those people are all guilty of the crimes they were accused of, and their pictures were put online. The two men at the conference were guilty of innappropriate sexual comments, and their pictures went online. Are you saying you object to people being called out for crimes they are definitely guilty of? That they “don’t deserve” to be named and shamed?
There’s an important difference there, though.
That was a private event in a home. There WAS an expectation of privacy there. Whether or not the fact that others were reportedly videoing it would effect that is something the lawyers would have to hash out if Romney or the host were foolish enough to press the issue.
@ Jafafa Hots
I am almost positive you can’t use pictures taken in public places for commercial purposes. Pretty sure a blogs counts as commercial use.
I personally care more about the breach of privacy then the dongle joke and the guy losing his job then the dongle joke. Dongle jokes don’t bother me.
@Pteryxx
Ok, so hypothetically I find a transsexual or gay person offensive (I don’t but some people do) I think this guy having to sit next to me is harassment because it makes me feel uncomfortable so I take a picture of him say some terrible things about the harassment i’m going though and im scared he is going to turn me gay on my blog/twitter. While claiming to represent my company I go on a rant against why he is so wrong. The company is not allowed to fire me? Even if they face massive backlash from their customers threatening to boycott their products if something is not done? How about if a muslim finds working with a uncovered women harassing?
Again, you are pretty sure about things you are completely wrong about.
You should stop doing that and fucking educate yourself.
(I wonder whether JJ has never seen a newspaper or watched a news channel, or if he just thinks they’re all non-profits.)
@thumper1990
Which man said what, what crime have they committed? Which of the men in the photo were involved. They are guilty of nothing. If you think they deserve to be fired over a dongle joke then I think feel that Adria deserves to be fired for posting a picture of people online accusing them of shit.
@ Jafafa Hots
She overheard the joke, it was not directed at her was it?
So your saying it is legal for me to take pictures of random girls on the street and post them on my blog with sexual comments next to them?
@John Jackson
A quite patently ridiculous false equivalency, since the hypothetical gay or trans person isn’t actually doing anything. Which means you dislike them not for their behaviour, let alone their voluntary behaviour which they made a concious choice to engage in, but merely for who they are.
THAT NEVER HAPPENS! EVER!
There are no websites devoted to doing that, there are no magazines that do that.
The word “paparazzi” does not exist!
But delusional fool, there is a load of cases on harassment in the workplace, which you, in your abject ignorance, ignore. They say it was harassment, and it doesn’t have to be sexual to be harassing. Why don’t you actually learn some facts, rather than going through life as a loud mouthed bozo without anything to say.
@ Jafafa Hots
It appears your right, on the photography thing Adria broke no laws, but I still strong disagree with her actions.
It would also be legal for someone to walk around photographing girls on the street or in a pool upload them to a blog with sexual comments and draw dongles on the pictures. Just because technically something is legally doesn’t make it right.
Where the fuck do you get the fuckwitted opinion that is must be directed at her? She just needs to overhear it. Your OPINON is worthless. You have no understanding of harassment and harassment law. You are an utter failure to progress your argument because of your loud-mouthed bozo the clown ignorance.
JJ, we just spent hours and countless words getting you to finally admit that your own opinion on ONE POINT is not fact and that you were talking completely out of your ass.
Why not learn from that and go off and fucking learn some things before you open your ignorant yap again.
Learn to civil rights. Hint: Engaging in discrimination is illegal conduct under discrimination law, including anti-harassment law. Example:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/hr/docs/harassment_bullying.php
Have you got an HR department? Want to go ask them whether you’re allowed to slam gay co-workers or customers at your job? Let us know how that conversation turns out.
They say it was harassment, and it doesn’t have to be sexual to be harassing. Why don’t you actually learn some facts, rather than going through life as a loud mouthed bozo without anything to say.
Over hearing a dongle joke is harassment? Is having to see to gay people hold hands also harassment? How about seeing uncovered women? They didn’t work with her, she overheard their conversation.
What you cite is illegal. But your OPINON of it is worthless. Your idea are nothing but lies, bullshit, and hyperbole. You are bozo the clown loudmouthing ignorance and selfish thinking.
@John Jackson
Actually, I’ve said many times that absolutely no one deserved to be fired over this. The one guy who did get fired is apparently guilty of a string of similar offences of which this is merely the latest, which is why he got fired and the other guy didn’t; however I can’t verify the truth of that and so can’t really comment. All I can say is that this one, singular incident should not have gotten anyone fired. However, just because they didn’t deserve to be fired does not mean they deserve no disciplinary action whatsoever, and it doesn’t mean that they do not deserve their photos being put online for something which they definitely did do and which they have admitted to.
That it is. Acknowledge as such by the harassee, the sponsors, and the guys who made the jokes. Inappropriate for the occassion. Show otherwise with case law, not your loud mouthed ignorance.
@ Nerd
HERP DERP UR WROG CAUSE I SAY SO
Its not illegal, taking pictures of people in public places is legal I can do w/e I want with that picture.
Wait so are you really trying to say its ok to take a mans picture in public places but not a womens? Nice logic brah
John Jackson effectively has a thread all about him now.
Why isn’t he happy?
I’m off to bed.
@John Jackson
You seem to have missed the point that the reason you post them is important. Taking photos of innocent strangers in order to sexualise and harrass them so as to satisfy your voyeuristic perversions is indeed wrong. Taking pictures of strangers you have seen engaging in inappropriate behaviour in order to call attention to said behaviour is fine.
How d’ya not get that?
@Pteryxx
Wouldn’t gay people and uncovered women be harassing muslims and christans?
It’s also worth noting the tactic on display by so many of our influx trolls, but best demonstrated by
Jack Johnsoner… John Jackson here.And that is trying to minimize real issues by making them morally equivalent to innocuous behaviors. Claiming that someone doing something perfectly valid, undeniably successful, and not at all an issue until sexists needed an excuse to justify hating her is really wrong and should be considered harassment is not just about demonization, it’s also about trying to minimize the word “harassment”.
It’s about making actual harassment and violence against women into something “minor” like taking a picture so that those who are tempted to go “well the truth must lie between the two extremes” people will be more and more inclined to ignore glaring examples of the latter (like the modern day cross-burning occurring against Adria Richards) because of it.
And we can see that in a number of his arguments. Trying to tie upskirt photographs and rape photographs to taking some dude’s picture at a con. Trying to argue that dealing with the pit of nastiness as a sexist male on XBox Live is equivalent to getting targeted rape and death threats. And so on.
And it’s also an old tactic that oppressor groups often trot out. We see it all over the place with the right-wing and the media, trying to argue that everything is a -gate scandal in order to minimize the actions at Watergate and other attempts to subvert democracy, trying to impeach Clinton over the dastardly crime of “perjury” in order to make it like the legitimate defense against tyranny of impeachment is just a “political tool”, making all supreme court justice nominations into a circus in order to minimize why choices like Bork were so horrifying, trying to play up the “dire consequences” of being a rapist so they can try and argue that the hell rape victims are put through is somehow less than or meaningless, trying to argue that fetuses are full people to minimize crimes against actual people, trying to argue all manner of things are rape, lynching, -isms, or violence in order to specifically minimize complaints made about specific behaviors on the part of the right-wing and reduce it to a he-said, she-said thing.
Now, of course, John Jackson isn’t as smart as those right-wing fuckers (I never thought I’d ever utter that sentence in my life) in that he isn’t playing to some crowd of ignorant fucks, but a group well versed in these tactics and how disingenuous they are as well as the basic reality and life experiences of these things he’s trying to minimize.
I’ll also note here for John Jackson the note that the men weren’t fired “just” for making douchey harassing reflexively sexist comments all through a panel about women. Nor did Adria Richards call for them to be fired.
Cause see the employer of the douchebags went out of their way to note that the person fired had a list of things they can’t disclose that necessitated termination.
How do we know this isn’t HR bullshitting? Well, because, the other douchebag involved is not only still with the company, but was defended by name as a valued employee of the company.
If it was all about the comments and bowing to the will of Adria’s dark feminazi sorcery, we would see both of them fired. This wasn’t the case.
So quelle surprise, the MRA trolls are not only wrong, but fractally so, each layer of inaccuracy and douchey tactics only revealing more intentional douchery and deliberate lies.
Again, these fuckers do not give a fuck about the truth, only punishing women for daring to ruin some guy’s “fun” and “narcing on him”. It’s no more nuanced than the playground bully who decides to stalk and harass the kid who noticed them beating up another kid in order to harass him out of telling a teacher.
We’re not in a playground, fellows. We’re in a modern society, as full functioning adults, it’s time you grew up with the rest of us.
@thumper1990
Ok, how about this then. I see some girl in a skirt / shirt I think is inappropriate so I take a photo of here and shame her for dressing like a slut on twitter, good or bad?
It takes a very stupid man to ask if slut shaming is bad.
Because context to these fuckwads is something you send to your bro’s when you find the convention’s open bar.
@ cerberus
Ok new thing, how about comparing what Adria did with me take a photo of a girl in a short skirt I deemed inappropriate and shaming her for dressing like a slut on twitter. Maybe I don’t straight out call her a slut but its implied. Good or bad?
Dang, borked the closing blockquote after the question mark in 767. Sorry.
Eh the more I look into this the worse it looks for the guy who was fired. Seems like one of them had a history of this kinda of stuff and this was sort of the last straw in his employers mind. I still don’t think posting people pictures online was right but ya, if what Adria said about this guy going on and and making tons of sexual jokes is true then she was right to report him. Kinda wish I didn’t mass mail sendgrid and contact tons of there customers and give them a what now appears to be biased account of events.
John Jackson:
Hoy, shit-for-brains, the part you’re missing with your limited intellect and comprehension is that it is perfectly OK to take pictures of ANYONE in public, and it’s even OK to publicly display it. How, precisely, you do that may be wrong. As an example that even a dumb shit like you may recognise, if a woman is made uncomfortable by some sexist jokes at a tech conference, takes a picture of the people making them, then posts it on Twitter, saying ‘not cool’, and then asks the conference’s staff to have a word, this is perfectly OK. If a man takes a picture of a woman, then posts it on Twitter, with the comment ‘I want to fuck her in the ass’, that is not OK because that’s sexual harassment.
I’ll give you the same advice I’ve had to give a couple of other dumb fucks – go get a fucking dictionary and look up the word ‘context’.
(Oh, and, perhaps you can now see the difference between an ad hominem and an insult when I tell you that what I did above was insult you, but I didn’t make an ad hominem. See if you can figure out why, fuckface.)
She was right to report him. That is where it should have fucking ended, but enabling assholes like you love this shit. You practically trip over yourselves to point out that she did something horrible, even though she got fired for reporting the incident which all parties agree was in violation of the PyCon’s policies. She was right.
@ nerd
So your not allowed to be offended by how people dress? How about this then, some girl at the conference is showing what I deem to much cleavage can I take a picture of it post it tweet it to pycon online and say that I feel this is offensive and ruining my experience and distracting? Why is Adrias definitions of offensive more valid then someone elses?
Recognizing when you screwed up is a good first step. Mind relaying that to your friends and telling SendGrid you were wrong?
@John Jackson
I’d have thought you’d have picked up on the general attitude towards slut shaming here, but just for the sake of argument:
Put forward a convincing case for how a woman in a short skirt is causing demonstrable harm through that behaviour, and that the offence is justified and reasonable. If she is, you have the right to call attention to that behaviour. If she is not, you do not.
For example, what, exactly, is the effect caused by that behaviour? How is that effect negative? Is the negative effect strong enough that your right to not feel that effect trumps her right to dress how she wants to?
Go.
@ zmidponk How about this then, some girl at the conference is showing what I deem to much cleavage can I take a picture of it post it tweet it to pycon online and say that I feel this is offensive, ruining my experience and distracting, please do something about it? Why is Adrias definitions of offensive more valid then someone else?
John Jackson:
Bad, because what you’re really saying is ‘I lack so much self-control, I fear becoming a rapist if I see a girl dressed in a short skirt’, and then holding the girl in question responsible for that.
And perhaps you might explain how ‘not cool’ = SLUTTY SLUTTY SLUT MCSLUT!!!!
@John Jackson #769
Assuming you’re not joking here, in all seriousness you may want to send a retraction. Quite apart from the fact you were wrong (and a sincere well done for admitting that) such an inaccurate portrayal of events may leave you open to libel or defamation suits.
@thumper1990
Put forward a convincing case for how a man in a making jokes to a friend is causing demonstrable harm through that behaviour, and that the offence is justified and reasonable. If he is, you have the right to call attention to that behaviour. If she is not, you do not.
For example, what, exactly, is the effect caused by that behavior? How is that effect negative? Is the negative effect strong enough that your right to not feel that effect trumps her right to talk to his friend in a private conversation how he wants?
Because making sexual comments at women is a recognized form of harassment on the basis of gender, which makes it a form of discrimination under civil rights law. It’s not just some person deciding they don’t like unthreaded comments or the color orange. (Or claiming they don’t like gay people or Muslims, which constitutes discrimination.) Discrimination happens culture-wide, it isn’t isolated personal opinions.
John Jackson:
Do PyCon, in your hypothetical example, have a code of conduct that deems exposed cleavage as inappropriate? If yes, then then is perfectly reasonable. If no, then see my response about your slut-shaming example.
Because there’s empirical research showing that the things Adria Richards was complaining about harms the ability of women and minorities to participate in workplaces on an equal basis.
There is also empirical research showing that your “complaint,” that you are unable to concentrate when you catch sight of too much breast skin, actually constitutes sexual harassment and harms the ability of women, specifically, to participate in workplaces on an equal basis.
If there is a dress code that this women is violating then your complaint MAY be valid, but from the way you’re framing it, it sounds more like a confession of YOUR inability to maintain a professional demeanor.
Your hyperbolic OPINON here is irrelevant. You are trying for refutation from absurdity, and the only absurdity is your example. What part of that don’t you get? Your attempts at such hyperbole show gross ignorance, and bozo the clown loudmouthed to be laughed at fuckwittery. Learn some law before you show just abject contempt for it.
@ pteryxx I don’t think anyone is claiming that the guys jokes were directed at her.
Irrelevant. If one is making jokes whose success depends on only certain people hearing them, then one ought to make them in a venue where only the people you want to hear them can hear them. Basic professional behavior.
It creates a hostile work environment per EEOC guidelines (by the way, that is a link to EVIDENCE, I win). Why don’t you shut your ignorant mouth and actually look up facts?
Conveniently, the Pharyngula sidebar links to some research on that very topic.
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Feminist_link_roundup#Rape_jokes_and_other_sexist_humor
Basically, making sexist jokes and comments accepted and normal in an environment tends to both stress out women and make them uncomfortable, *and* make men more likely to engage in sexist comments and behavior, creating a feedback loop that ends up helping keep women out of those environments. Which is one reason (among many) that there’s a shortage of women in STEM fields. There’s a lot of research into the phenomenon called “chilly climate”.
Me:
I should actually clarify that this is only reasonable in the sense that it is the woman breaching the code of conduct. However, it would actually be a sign that PyCon themselves were being a bit sexist by saying ‘we can’t have the men distracted by any exposed female flesh, so the women have to suck it up and cover up.’
@ Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
Your wrong though, i’m right your wrong are you that fucking stupid not to get this?
Irrelevant, and you should know that. But then that requires a lesson in sexual harassment. Wiki, EqualRights.org, more of those pesky links to real evidnence showing you and your arguments are full of shit.
@John Jackson
A fantastically immature attempt to turn the tables; but I will humour you, providing you then go on to do me the courtesy of answering my fucking questions in regards to your ridiculous falsely-equivalent hypothetical.
The behaviour in question is that sexual jokes were made knowingly in Adria’s presence.
The effect of the behaviour is that it makes Adria feel uncomfortable and, in an environment acknowledged to be majority-male and white and therefore naturally already uncomfortable for a black lady, devalued and sexualised.
Making someone else feel uncomfortable, devalued and sexualised is self-evidently negative as acknowledged by the vast majority of the human race, and indeed such behaviour when carried out in the work place is normally grounds for serious disciplinary action, if you are lucky enough that it is not categorised as gross misconduct.
Asking that people watch their behaviour in public is not overly taxing, particularly as it is already expected of a grown adult in a variety of social settings, let alone professional ones.
Subjecting Adria to such feelings leads to a negative work expereince and feelings of stress and devaluation which could potentially lead to her leaving the career if such feelings become overwhelming.
Therefore it is more reasonable to ask the men to watch their behaviour than it is to demand that Adria be subjected to such feelings.
Therefore the behaviour exhibited by the men is deemed to be unacceptable.
QED
Sorry if I don’t take your unevidenced word for anything other than bullshit. Your opinion versus real evidence, you lose everytime loser. You need to up your game to an evidence based argument. All you have at the moment is your argment from your ignorance, which is pathetic in its width and depth on this subject. It can’t be recovered with dudebro attitude, which you also present to hide your lack of understanding.
Harassment doesn’t have to be directed to the person affected by it. For instance, it can be sexual harassment to have naked or pornographic pictures of women on a calendar at someone’s desk. It can also be harassment if several people in a workplace make racist jokes to each other and a co-worker or customer overhears them. The person making a complaint doesn’t even need to belong to the group being insulted – it’s right for white folks to make complaints about racist remarks, or straight people to call out homophobia.
@zmidponk
I agree with everything your saying but I would also apply it to overhearing a dongle joke. If you think that someone making is dongle joke in a private conversation is intolerable (which I dont) then I don’t get how you can say it would be ok to dress in low cut shirts showing tons of cleavage or a really shirt skirt in the same environment and not be called out on it.
@ nerd
I will post back after my classes and I do research to provide some evidence.
Ah, I see Johnny boy has reached his intellectual limits.
@John Jackson
But you are expected to dress appropriately in those settings. Showing a lot of flesh at work is a no-no no matter what sex you are.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2013/03/22/was-it-appropriate-for-adria-richards-to-tweet-a-photo-of-two-men-at-pycon-and-accuse-them-of-being-sexist/
There is something that lawyer said about the situation. I agree about the jokes not being sexist. No word is sexist by itself, it needs context. If there were no intent(context), how can the joke be sexist. I do agree it was inappropriate and PyCon reacted it being so. Dongle jokes just doesn’t belong to public professional behavior. But i don’t think it was sexist. Is it sexist just to say penis and someone overhears it? What about ear? or nipple or neck? Butt? I think in this case Richards applied her own context which made it look worse. No technical person would’ve thought that forking someone’s repo would be some kind of sexual commentary. She thought the worst -> it became sexist in her mind.
I’m a techie and play games all the time. We use VOIP programs to talk between us in games. I’m quite sure that if we would publish recording of those discussions and give it to random person, if he/she would judge the content by her own context without understanding our gaming culture or friendship, you could probably prosecute a big heap of planned crimes and defamation. But in reality what happens is having fun between friends.
I acknowledge that his is difficult issue. Not all things i consider OK are OK by other peoples’ standards, but we have to draw line somewhere. I think the line goes so, that while it is bad behavior to tell dongle joke to your friend, it isn’t sexist if you do not apply the sexism in the joke. Just hearing joke with word dongle in it isn’t enough to make it sexist, you need the intent and context to make it so.
Correct me if i’m wrong but in this situation the context was that someone in the keynote mentioned dongle which was needed for some connections and the guy then cracked the joke about the dongle. If this is the case, it is unprofessional, but not sexist. If the joke had included women in it, it would have been totally different case, then there would have been the context even if not intent.
Markku – please read the thread before commenting.
*snicker* I don’t think JJ knows what real evidence is. It isn’t his OPINION. Poor thing will get all confused, and try to link to a video of somebody giving an opinion. Typical idea of MRA “evidence”. Let me help you JJ, real evidence can be found here: Google Scholar.
Why is it so fucking important for these men to deny that things can be sexist even if they don’t mean to be? Who cares if you don’t think it was sexist–you weren’t there. And even if you were, you’d probably be wrong, because your Bayesian priors don’t include enough information about how sexism operates for you to make an accurate assessment.
Fuck off.
Also, read your company’s policy guidelines on sexual harassment. Until then, you can’t discuss anything with intelligence and knowledge.
John Jackson:
Well, apart from missing that the conversation wasn’t private, for the very simple reason that it took place in the middle of a public conference hall, and that, even if the conversation was private, that wouldn’t matter, because Adria Richards was kind of part of that conversation (unless, of course, you’re now going to allege that Adria Richards made up the part about this happening as she kind of struck up a conversation with the two guys in question), if you really don’t get the difference between the two situations, despite the difference being explained to you in detail by others, then I really don’t know how to respond to that, other than to assume you really are as limited in intellect as you seem to be.
@John Jackson
Fixed
tag! And a new one comes in! Without checking sources on the topic! What a, um, surprise.
You’re wrong.
See also the GeekFeminism wiki on the incident.
carlie – That is my opinion after reading the thread. I can see that people think differently in it but i don’t have to agree with them.
Gosh, John Jackson really is obsessed with women and the sexy, sexy clothes they wear, isn’t he?
Oh, and that Forbes post is unintentionally hilarious: (bolds mine)
Indeed, Forbes opinion contributor. INDEED.
Considering that the people who think differently than you have facts and empirical research on their side, and you have offered none of those, why do you expect anyone to take your opinion seriously?
Pteryxx – I’ve read the Richards view and i have read the guys view about the issue. I took Richards posting with grain of salt on some parts because of the general tone of the message (she thinking herself modern joan of arc etc.). The guys apology and message felt more genuine, as he didn’t make himself crusader of some issue.
Sounds like he’s one of those dudes whose claims about having complete lack of self-control in the face of sexually attractive women mean that the most rational response would be to put him under house arrest until he learns how to behave like an adult human being.
Who gives a shit about your unevidenced OPINION. Nobody has to take what you have to say seriously unless you can back up your opinion with evidence. I see no evidence. Ergo, your OPINION *floosh* is sent out as sewage as it should be.
Amazing. I have not see two people go to such lengths to avoid addressing what their conversation partner is saying in a long time.
domah and traversedavies
Nearly every time I have seen you describe what someone else has said and I went to look at it, it did not look like your portrayal. You are very good at misrepresentation.
Nearly every time I have seen someone talk about why workplace harassment matters to them, I have seen you change subjects. Your subject change can be addressed separately, but I’m not going to respect a coward who can’t even address what their conversation partner is talking about.
When one judges your participation here by what you don’t respond to, things start to look interesting…
FEEEEEEELLLIINGGSSSSS
instead of, you know, facts and empirical research.
Tell us again why anyone should give a flying fuck about your opinion?
I didn’t think i was talking about anything that needed research or such. Only fact i know about sexism is definition from dictionary and you cannot say your practical view of the definition is more fact than mine is?
Only 2 descriptions of the event has been done by people who were at the scene and that is Richards and the guy who made the apology. Those are not facts, they are their views of the situation which i review as i see fit and deem believable.
Crusader of some issue, like, getting more women into the tech field? Like this issue?
Like PyCon supporting women programmers, having multiple women coder groups represent at the conference, like instituting a code of conduct as part of their initiative to increase women’s participation in the Python community by stating that sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for a professional audience?
Oh sure, that couldn’t be relevant to her decision at all. /sarcasm
Sexism is a complex phenomenon arising from social interactions among humans. The people who study these interactions and are considered experts on them are called sociologists or sometimes social scientists. They have done research into what constitutes sexism, how sexism functions, what its effects are on the people who experience it are, etc., etc. Their definition of sexism is slightly more complex than the one found in the dictionary, just as the climatologists’ definition of, say, “albedo” is slightly more complex than the one found in the dictionary, to take a simplified analogy as an example.
If all you’ve done is look up the word in a dictionary, then trying to insert your opinion here is more or less along the lines of popping into a discussion about climate change mitigation and adaptation and bleating, “But CO2 is plant food! How can it possibly have negative effects on the environment?”
In other words, all you’re doing here is demonstrating how much more you have to learn, and that nobody should care what your opinion on the subject is.
Markku:
It’s interesting which side you choose to disbelieve. Especially because the accounts of the two men don’t contradict what Adria Richards reported.
What _actual_ evidence do you have? Eye witness statements? From someone else than Richards and the guy? I’d love to see link to those as i have not seen such and i didn’t notice one in the thread (i might have missed as the thread is quite long).
Markku;
A PyCon representative has confirmed Richards’ story.
One of the two men in question, although denying there was bad intent, agreed that what they were saying was inappropriate and that he supported Richards’ actions.
Why are you still picking at this scab?
ah more people dead set on arguing they’re too socially backward to be allowed out in public. Where the fuck do all these aliens unfamiliar with human interaction and culture yet oddly speaking perfect imperfect casual English come from!?
Because the disenfranchisement, devaluation, and systemic oppression of 50% of the human race is such a trivial issue.
/sarcasm
So, when you said that you had read the thread, that was a lie, right? Because if you had, you would know what actual evidence exists.
@ Ing:Intellectual Terrorist “Starting Tonight, People will Whine”
You know were the majority right? At least according to the online poles I have seen.
Well, we all know that the majority is never wrong.
/dying from sarcasm
why do we never get this brand of idiocy on other topics? Why are there never people who dead fast refuse to acknowledge that flour is needed for baking or insist that their definiton of uturn is as valid as any ones?
So, I have reached a conclusion on this thread… nobody is listening to anybody, and the amount of hyperbole, ad hominem (and yes, there is a lot of it to those who are denying it… you don’t have to say you are an asshole so you are wrong for it be ad hominem. You can call someone an asshole and then not explain why they are wrong, it achieves the same goal). Nobody cares about truth, everybody is grinding their axe. I’m out, removing my subscription so this nonsense doesn’t show up on my e-mail anymore, so no reason to bother replying to this… and no, nobodies mind has been changed (but for the record mine could have been, given some arguments, and yes nerd of redhead, some facts, which you never bothered to supply floosh
@Markku Hänninen These people are ridiculous, they cant seem to respond to anything with out vile vicious attacks, I have seen rocks with better social skills. I’m thinking about spamming this thread on 4chan so they can argue with people who can match their “intellect”.
FIFY
You’re a male supremacist. You’re on the wrong side of everything involving sexism, misogyny, and patriarchy. If you really cared about the welfare of men who are mistreated and limited by rigid gender roles and expectations, you’d be a feminist.
I see traversedavies still doesn’t get that we’re all vigorously disagreeing with him because we have read his posts.
And he still doesn’t get the Ad Hom business.
Poor sod. It must be Hell living in a world in which everybody but you is wrong about everything.
dead set on proving yourself a bigger idiot than I claimed eh Jayjay.
Both with citing agrumentum ad popularum (incidently here comes honey boo = greatest achievement of art) and using internet polling to do so
@traverse
Oh do fuck off. Stop playing Rational Moses
Gee, you must have deliberately missed the links to sexaul harassment web sites I posted. And everybody else asking you to support your asshole claims. What an abject loser, thinking the facts of the argument are only those they deign to recognize. But at the end of the day, they show themselves to be ignorant bozo the clowns, good for nothing but a laugh.
Yet another person complaining rudeness because they came in swinging their cock and got kicked Iin the nads for it
If you change the definition of “ad hominem” from “dismissing an argument because of unrelated characteristics of the person advancing the argument” to “insult,” then yes, this thread is full of “ad hominems”.
What other words would we like to redefine today? How about sexism? That’s a popular one. I bet, if we let exclusively men (no manginas allowed) define what sexism is, sexism would disappear overnight! Problem solved.
When you keep thinking your unevidenced OPINION is a fact, what else are we to do? We have to get your attention. Your opinion is nothing but *floosh* sewage, but your poor fee-fee shrivels if nobody salutes.
You know Jayjay perhaps I want to be the minority, I don’t need your authority down with the moral majority
Interesting that they’re not the least bit interested in discussing that actual, vile and vicious attacks Richards has received.
But JJ is willing to enlist 4chan to do… what? Maybe launch some similar actually vile and vicious attacks against us?
btw I trust I’m not the only one who caught using 4Chan as a threat to unleash the same treatment on us that was just pulled.
Ie be nice to be or prepare for net harassment
Ie ie bullying threats
Thank you for outing yourself as a petulant thug
SallyStrange – But does sexism generate out of nothing? Is some word with many meanings sexist by itself. If i just utter word “bitch” without any context or intent, is it sexist? I think not. It needs context and/or intent to be sexist. There is no sexism without someone doing something either by taking action or thinking inside his/hers head.
I try to explain. If i say bitch. It is not sexist because there is no context and intent. If i say bitch explaining about dogs it is quite normal and there is no sexism. If i say bitch and mean my girlfriend i’m being sexist via content if not intent(if we suppose that i’m just ignorant and mean well even if using stupid word). If some woman does something to me i don’t like and i call her bitch there is both intent and context.
Now i intentionally selected word that is derogatory to women. There is difference between words bitch and dongle. If i say bitch in public situation where are women present, i can expect negative reaction because the word is derogatory to women and and thus sexist. But if i say dongle, i only can mean technical device or someone’s penis. There is no gender based effect with word dongle. It is not directed to women in anyway unless you apply context or intent to it. If i say you should take my dongle or you should put my dongle in, then context and intent would apply. If i just say dongle out loud, there is no context or intent, thus it cannot be sexist as sexism doesn’t come out of nothing, it needs intent or context. Someone needs to generate it.
While i do acknowledge that many of the people here might have more experience with sexism as general issue, i’m fairly certain that sexism doesn’t exist without people. If it only exist with people, it needs something to generate it, and that is intent and context by which we communicate. That is why i think the dongle remark is not sexist by itself even if overheard.
They’re nerds, Ing. And apparently they need an entire industry to cater to not only their lack of social skills, but their refusal to learn them. Why must you cruelly deprive them of their dongles in the workplace?
Oh gee, that’s too bad. I was really looking forward to reading more about your wonderful self.
so have you always been a huge hypocritical thug jayjay or did you go to douchebag bootcamp?
@Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
The same thing i’m doing while listening to your inane ramblings? I wonder what made you so prejudice against males? Were you rejected one to many times because of your lack of social skills so now you just sit on the computer attacking people? Did you mother not love you enough? You should go hang out on 4 chan you would fit right in.
Gosh, I hope that doesn’t happen, or it will be all PZ’s fault. No wait, let me follow the chain of causality back until it hits a woman.
The PyCon message is not any confirmation. Inappropriate is different than sexist. I don’t disagree on inappropriate, i don’t think dick jokes are part of professional setting but that doesn’t make it sexist.
Markku – You want feminism 101? Do it in Thunderdome. I’m not interested.
haha remember its just their lack of social skills you stupid social reject freaks!
Yes Jayguar I’m sure nerds problen is lack of the cock.
@ Ing:Intellectual Terrorist “Starting Tonight, People will Whine
At least I tried to be civil, you can debate the 4 chaners who i’m sure will be able to discus things in a way you seem to so enjoy.
Poor, sad, Nerd, can’t get any boys to call, eh JayJay?
*snortle*
jayjay remind me; are you proudly part of the 4 Chan majority or not?
4 chan is blocked on my college wifi, this is disappointing it will have to wait. W/e im still a rich white privileged male and your not. Jealous?
@ ing
Nah its just interesting to observe how they interact.
traversedavies @826:
I believe you are trying to convey here that you care about truth, that you are trying to listen, that you are open to being persuaded.
Upthread (@646), I posted a link to some empirical research on the effects of sexual joking in the workplace. I even quoted part of the abstract of the article:
Empirical research is a route many of us recognize as useful in getting to the truth.
I’ll assume (in a long comment thread, where I did not use your handle in the comment to make sure you were “listening”) that you missed it the first time.
Do you find the claims of these researchers persuasive? Are you inclined to update your views in response to their findings? If not, why not?
Jackson, we’ve been around long enough to realize that the entrenched privileged majority won’t pay attention unless they’re being called names.
John Jackson
You’re a prisoner, JayJay. You’re stuck inside a tiny, tiny mind. We pity you.
Also, Nerd of Redhead is actually a heterosexual man. Interesting that you would consider it an insult to imply that he is not.
I’m civil damnit and if you disagree I’ll make sure you get harassed!
JAyjay check your schools guidelines for behavior you may be in violation already
@John Jackson
Nope, I am too. I’m just not an arsehole. Why have you still not responded to my #790?
If there is a list of inherently sexist words and dongle is one of them, i’m not interested either.
@myeck waters
Help! Im a prisoner in my condo that is nicer then anything you will ever own and i’m only 19! Oh nooo im trapped in a shitty 2004 volvo a my parents bought me after I totaled my 2012 MKZ, it was a hybrid so I probably do more for the earth then you.
Oh no im going to one of the best schools and i’m going to graduate debt free. Oh no! Whenever my mom and dad die I will be a millionaire. It sure sucks to be me.
Im going to throw a party tonight, bang some drunk slut on my pool table that costs more then your car, record and link it here. Cause apparently that’s all right with you guys.
Fucking christ. Look, the dick jokes are not sexist in and of themselves. What is sexist about this isn’t the joke in a vacuum, but the fact that they were thoughtlessly making such jokes in a professional setting. And there is empirical evidence cited in this very thread which shows that this behavior creates a hostile environment for many women. That’s the sexist part.
It was thoughtless and stupid. It happens. In another setting, in another context, the joke might have had a different reception form Richards.
It is like anything. Expressing hostility about religion here is a much different thing than doing so at your friend’s wedding or a funeral. In both, context changes how people deal with your words. Making a double entrendre with friends in a causal atmosphere is much different than making the same jokes in a conference on making the IT field more accessible to women. Ignoring the context, nitpicking, and trying to blame the victim are all problematic. And all things you are doing.
Where is sexism really coming into the argument? The problem is harassment and inappropriate behavior. Do you even know how harassment in the workplace is defined? It appears all you have is your OPINION based on keywords, not what the legal meaning of those words are. Do you homework. Meanwhile, quit whining.
Typical assinin an sexist aggression from an MRA fuckwit who can’t win except by showing attitude. Nor even then. Who the fuck care how an abject MRA loser dudebro applies his sarcasm, which is obviously directed at himself, and not his alleged victim? You know, those who worry the most about that must have some latent feelings… Dudebros are stupid that way.
How does it feel to be a spoiled loser who only gets by because of his parents? I mean, that must be a great sense of accomplishment you have by being born. Your parent must be proud to have raised such a fine asshole of person who feels that the circumstances of their life over which they had no control is a bragging point.
@thumper1990
You won the “debate”. If I was a bystander review this I would say you won. You guys are assholes but what you said actually does make sense.
haha nerd needs cock and I’m a rapist!
We all thought you where a pants wetter but by shutting yourself you’ve sure proven us wrong
Ugh hall monitor I think it’s way past time and way over the lone for a certain bullying thug?
I like it when they drop all pretense of being good people.
@glodson
100x better then what I assume being poor and stupid would feel. My parents only see what I let them, I got an IB diploma no one knows I cheated, Im going to graduate from a prestigious school getting good grades, no one will know that I’m paying people for test answers for the majority of my classes. Why work if you don’t have to, I have no criminal record and my dads contacts will get me a 6 figure starting salary no problem. Working hard is for the stupid.
0.0
Um, it looks like I missed a lot.
We’ve certainly got to see the best of humanity in these two Adria threads.
@Markku Hanninen
Dongle is not inherently sexist. The joke was not inherently sexist. However the joke contributed to an overall atmosphere which is sexualised and male-centric, which women find uncomfortable. This results in lower participation in this career by women while also, if left unchallenged, creating a feedback loop which results in this sort of behaviour becoming more common. Which obviously leads to even less women getting involved in the career. So while the joke is not sexist in and of itself, it supports a sexist culture. Do you see?
It’s important to call this stuff out, because staying silent is tacit endorsement, which makes those indulging in the behaviour feel vindicated… which is only going to lead to more of this behaviour, until the behaviour becomes the norm. And when it’s the norm, it gets called out less… I’m sure you see where this is going. It’s a vicious circle which does nothing more than perpetuate this behaviour and make the Tech environment more uncomfortable for women.
This behaviour goes unchallenged -> This behaviour becomes more common -> This behaviour becomes the norm -> This behaviour goes unchallenged…
If you want more women involved in Tech, you have to break this cycle.
Jackson, you don’t seriously think that you’re smart, do you?
I guess you are happy just being stupid.
Your lack of studying shows.
Proud of nepotism? You better work hard, because you are really fucking stupid. Not that I buy any of this. It screams of desperation. You have nothing. You’re a loser.
Nothing will change that. And really, you are proud that you are a intellectually dishonest, cheating, spoiled and whiny child who brags about trying to have sex with a drunk girl. We have a word for losers like you.
@ Rey Fox
When did I ever try to look like a good person? I tried to be civil, to understand your guys point of view which actually is more valid then mine but who cares? Adria was fired partly due to my efforts, I won. I am not a “good” person, neither are you but i’m just better at life then you.
@Ing:Intellectual
I will be sure to link to the vid so you can jerk to it.
Gee, I hope JayJay lives in the US. I’m retiring a few years, and having JayJay taxed for retirement SSA and medicare for me and the Redhead will be the living end….Kismet.
@John Jackson
Thank you. If only you’d left it there rather than bragging about how much better off than everyone else you are. Simply admitting you were in the wrong would have won you a lot of respect. In light of your more recent posts, you claiming that we are the arseholes seems to be rather hypocritical. The fact you felt the need to follow your decent admission up with insults and bragging has genuinely made me a bit sad. Especially since you seem to have done precisely fuck all to earn any of your possessions.
Funnily enough, I’m not much impressed.
My faith in humanity, briefly bolstered, has swiftly hit rock bottom again.
I find it so amusing when the dudebros know they lost the argument and nobody is taking them seriously. The resulting temper tantrums, like JayJay is throwing, can be spectacular. Why he would want that in public where it can be Google searched is question for philosophers though.
Don’t count on any of this being true. He’s a lying jackass, as we can all see already with his posts.
Oh, that’s the problem. John Jackson is trying to get some sense of validity for his life here, because he sure doesn’t get it anywhere else. Poor John. Somewhere deep in your brain you know you’re a parasite and don’t want to be, you just haven’t practiced thinking enough to figure out what to do about it.
Well, I don’t know about anyone else, but when I state an opinion, I generally do it because I not only think I’m right, but that I’m a good person, and that my opinion comes from that. So I guess you’re arguing from the standpoint of being a sociopath, which I think invalidates everything you say about the ethics of privacy. I’m guessing now that you’re only mad at Richards because you’re afraid someone like her will do that to you. And that privacy is only worthwhile to you insofar as it keeps you from getting caught for all the stuff you do that you’re dimly aware is wrong.
Not that I believe any of your bluster on this thread, but your willingness to lie about it pretty much paints you as a sociopath anyway.
Boy I hope the Buddhists are wrong about US all being one because if Jayjay is me and I am he I’d kill ourselves
I agree with you! I said earlier i think the behavior was inappropriate and didn’t belong there. My beef is with it being sexist. Many people call it sexist behavior. I even agree with you that it might be harrassing as the term is used in many places, i’d say borderline because there is no intent, but not out of the question.
I agree that bad jokes can make workplace hostile to anyone, but that doesn’t make it sexist. There needs to be sexism to make something sexist. If the sexism is missing, there is no sexist remark.
My view is that she made bad call. She overheard jokes that had all the signs of being sexist but they weren’t. Her past experience led her astray and she made assumptions about context and intent. In her blog post she called them clearly sexual and from the guys sttandpoint only thing confirmed is that one guy did dongle joke which was inappropriate. There seems to be doubt if the forking thing had any innuendo to anything in it. The forking thing made her notice it, and dongle made her react. So if the forking was bad call, maybe the reaction to dongle joke got sexist context in her judgement even without it being such.
I think she had enough reason to report them, doing it publicly was another bad call and generally i view her blog post and justifications worst of all. It felt like she wanted to make example of these guys. Too bad examples have nothing to do with justice or fairness when dealing with bad behavior, examples just mean that some people get different(and usually worse) treatment than others so someone gets to make a point.
Must be sad to not have anything in your own life to be proud of.
There’s that word again. Wrong.
Who gives a shit about your beef? And it with double entendre can be considered sexist. But then, who the fuck are you do decide whether or not it has to be sexist? Which is a red herring, which you admit. Why can’t you let it go, like an intelligent person would?
@Markku Hanninen
The jokes were made by one of the guyss in response to something the other guy had said directly to Richards. So while they technically were not directed at her, they were made in front of her with full knowledge that she was there. She didn’t just “overhear” them. She also said they were sexual, not sexist.
Really, you need to do more reading before you comment. This has been addressed. Repeatedly. In this thread.
@Rey Fox
My degree and resume will look be much more impressive then yours. My sat was 1420/1600.
@glodson
Im sure you don’t buy it lol, here my pool table worth more then your car were I will hook up with some drunk slut tonight, it wont be rape cause I will be crunker then her.
http://postimg.org/image/3u8c3fxjx/
Coming up next my bank account with 76k in it ID showing i’m 19 and my current car and previous car titles. How about you show the disgusting cave you call a home?
*snicker* emotion IQ, that of a two-year old throwing a temper tantrum.
Not buying JayJay is an authority. He has trouble with reality. Non-sequiturs do not an argument or authority make.
“Look” being the operative word there. You are aware of course that the test scores will only get you a job in the first place? In order to keep the job, you need to actually live up to the test scores.
… Good luck with that.
You must really be proud of your parents. Thanks to them, you have all those things which you did nothing to earn. I know I feel so proud of things I had to do nothing to acquire. They mean so much to me, these things that were just handed to me.
In fact, I’m so proud that I have to try and make other people jealous as I dehumanize women on the internet. So much so, that that I have to post pictures to prove to strangers that I have so much money all gotten from my parents because I’m too much of a loser to have have earned it myself.
That seems to capture your essence right there. Besides, your pool table does nothing for me. And let’s not even mention the fact that you keep saying the woman will be drunk. Like she wouldn’t sleep with you while sober.
I understand the point and the dongle joke might be even part of it as in creating somekind of atmosphere. But it still doesn’t make it sexist. It might be even create atmosphere where it is “easier” to tell sexist joke but it still doesn’t make that joke sexist. It just makes it bad joke and inappropriate to the setting. I do agree that inappropriate behavior left unchallenged leads to more such behavior, but it is not reasonable to call this guy sexist because his joke was part of big chain that might lead to sexist remark. It doesn’t merit picture of you with label “sexist”.
You keep arguing like if it isn’t sexist, there is case forinappropriate behavior. When the harassee, the harassers, and conference organizers all said it was inappropriate behavior. Why are you having trouble with this? Abject stupidity?
I’m not deciding it, i’m voicing my opinion. As for the rest of the post, i try to have civil conversation. After i’ve had it with reasonable people, i tend to think about the things that were said, especially the POVs that are different than mine. After that, my opinion might change, part of it might change or it will stay the same. Even if it doesn’t change, i will get better understanding how people view things. Thus i try to understand people and grow wider view of the world.
Sadder and sadder.
@Markku Hanninen
No, you’re missing the point. The joke is not sexist. However, it contributes to an atmosphere that makes women uncomfortable. This in turn leads to gender disparity in the profession because less women join. No one is saying the dongle joke was sexist in and of itself, and no one has called this guy a sexist. We have merely said he was contributing to a negative aspect of Tech culture and it was right to call him on it.
Who the fuck cares about your imginary chain? It was an off-color remark. Overtly sexist, no. But close enough to be inappropriate, and mildly sexist. Why is it so important to you that it isn’t called sexist? Unless, of course, you have something similar hanging over your head….
“You keep arguing like if it isn’t sexist, there is case forinappropriate behavior. When the harassee, the harassers, and conference organizers all said it was inappropriate behavior. Why are you having trouble with this? Abject stupidity?”
Just talking too loud in public conference is inapprpriate behavior. Telling stupid jokes is too. I agree fully. What i don’t agree with is what is sexist about dongle joke. I think we go to wrong path if we start to call out sexist behavior in such manner. I think it takes away from the word sexist when it is used carelessly.
I AM JAYJAY DOUCHE OF DOUCHE. GAZE UPON MY MATERIAL POSSESIONS YE MORTALS AND DISPAIR
Your OPINION is irrelevant compared to harassment policies, and case law resulting from harassment cases. What part of that don’t you understand? Oh, that your OPINION is *floosh* treated with disdain and dismissal deserved for all unevidenced opinion in cases of fact?
Have none of these people ever either worked in a place with a sexual harassment policy or been out in public? Ever?
And you’ve failed to address all the reasons why it was sexist, and what the problem is.
You are acting like a concern troll. Stop it.
You are missing a word.
@glodson
Its a lot easier to hook up with girl when your both drunk, I dont like working hard.
http://postimg.org/image/anmxob9gd/
78.8k + another 10k on my debt card at 19, Im more sucessful then you deal with it.
You already admitted that you have no idea what the fuck sexism actually is, so why are you bothering to share your uninformed opinion about it? Get thee to a feminism 101 forum. Google “feminism 101”, then read for a few days, THEN give us your opinion.
Otherwise, shut up and stop wasting everybody’s time.
Anybody else wonder if John Jackson is merely incarnating Frank Zappa’s “Bobby Brown?”
I’m hoping no real person could be such a jizzbag.
I can agree with this standpoint, others do call him sexist though and i think she thought the jokes as sexist too. I think also that the way she did it was wrong, tweet pic wasn’t the right way. That might be my finnish culture, as it is not legal here to take picture of someone and make it public even if it is a public place. The picture itself was borderline legal here but in Finland it would become illegal the moment the attention was called only to certain people in the picture.
Jackie Boy, please. We’re trying to have a discussion with an actual adult here.
Douchebag:
That’s call date rape, asshole.
Fixed that for you.
are we on Ferengnon?
They’re NERDS, Og! They live in caves and communicate via grunts!
Damn but part of this thread has gotten very creepy and damned proud of it.
And some rich people wonders why we poor people think that many of them are the true parasites on society. JayJay is the epitome of unearned privilege.
Aapparently that money can’t buy the ability to focus a camera
Having more money and stuff would be nice, but not so nice that it’s worth trading my humanity in for it.
Which is apparently what JJ has done. Sad.
@glodson
The money is in my name, I earned it working for my dads company over 2 summers. Its not my parents its mine, car is mine, pool table is mine, 70 inch tv is mine, everything in the house is mine, real estate is my parents but they will prob give it to me.
I suppose I didnt earn my 985 bitcoins either, which have skyrocketed in value due to my smart investment when they were under 2$ a coin. I guess I don’t deserve any credit for my smart money managing skills.
He spent too much on the pool table cover to afford a good camera. That, or daddy hasn’t gotten around to buying him one yet.
Ah. A rapist who thinks that incapacity equals consent.
What is your problem? I don’t think you know. She doesn’t have to think the jokes are sexist, simply inappropriate for the work/conference place. So, drop what she thinks as it is irrelevant. Drop what you think about the term sexist as it is irrelevant. Your OPINION is irrelevant. I think that’s where the real problem lies.
There is no such list. Therefore, by your own self-imposed standards, you ARE interested in feminism 101. Get to it; you have a lot of catching up to do. There are some handy links to the upper left of this page, at the Pharyngula Wiki. Also, like I said, you can just google “feminism 101,” or, “finally feminism 101” and you will get some useful sources. Not my job to be your professor. You want to get educated? Pay someone or do the work yourself. Your ignorance is impeding your ability to participate in this conversation.
Well, your take on this seem to be based on hostility against people who have different opinions. Then you decree that there is somekind of higher authority that supercedes the defitinion of the word and i should go and learn from them. Why? Because you said so?
If the joke doesn’t match definition of sexism in any logical matter, what is there to learn which makes it so. Is there somekind of superlanguage which tells us more about the word and doesn’t apply logic to it. Or do you just state that the definition of the word is incorrect.
Why do you think i haven’t read anything? Do you think that if everybody just googles feminism 101 it means that the only logical pattern of thinking follows yours?
So you earned everything your parents gave you?
Must be so proud
They still wipe your ass or do you hire someone to do that
Seriously you think these toys which by your admission youj have not from hard work but by privileged of passing out the right vagina make you better somehow?
Obvious troll is obvious.
Nope. Not yours. Your dad gifted you that money. You wouldn’t have it if wasn’t for the circumstances of your birth.
You freely brag about being born into wealth, not having to earn the money, and you know didn’t earn it.
Nepotism seems to be one of the many words you don’t understand, loser.
Ditto, still we are talking.
i love hearing people talk about investments
Earn money it’s smart investing
lose money it’s bad luck
@Ing:Intellectual Terrorist “Starting Tonight, People will Whine”
My laptop is is also probably worth more then what ever shitty car you drive, webcam cant take good pictures for some reason. 2000
http://postimage.org/image/9da0hopmb/70a75517/
Maybe if you guys stopped bitching about every little thing and got a job/worked harder you could be successful like me.
Who else pictures this sketch when most of our MRA friends on these threads opens their mouth.
HE DRIVES A DODGE STRATUS!
i also love the bragging that he can’t get laid outside of rape.
Yeah I poo my pants cause the toilets too much trouble who looks stupid now!
Quite the big man. Look out everyone we got a bad ass here
Gee, those of us in the US have no trouble seeing it as a potentially sexist remark via double entendre. The problem is with you, not us. Now, where is your problem? Until you define your problem, you can’t solve it. Either that, or shut the fuck up and actually listen and read the threads.
I think i have and in very logical manner. I told the reasons in previous posts in detailed and logical manner why i see things the way i do.
To summarize, i think it is not sexist as no one created any sexism in the joke by context or intent. Or at least we don’t have knowledge of that. I think it is inappropriate and bad behavior to tell such jokes in professional setting but that doesn’t make it sexist.
All we would have to do is be reborn with rich parents! It is all so easy! Just having a rich mommy and daddy and you’ll have earned the money! Then we just need to make sure that during our reincarnation to rich parents that we also make sure to eliminate parts of our brains that deal in reason, logic and empathy!
And then we call all desperately seek validation for being a parasitic loser by trying to show off our parents online too!
@John Jackson #902
You’re such a nauseating individual I doubt anyone would deign to sleep with you if they were sober, so the woman in question being judgement-impaired isn’t “easier” so much as “a necessity”.
You are aware “Parasite” =/= “Successful”, right?
Here’s the thing, Johnny-boy, while you might occasionally get laid on a pool table by the occasional judgement-impaired girl who’s impressed by all the shinyness, that stuff is really only impressive in and of itself when you’re young and immature. In my experience women, as opposed to girls, tend to want an independant man who can look after himself and actually contribute something to a realtionship. You know, as opposed to some loser who has to live off his parent’s wealth and generally be looked after all his life. So, long story short, you’ll die alone. ‘Grats and that.
Now, why don’t you go knock around your big empty condo pretending that the echo of your own voice is actually that of someone who will deign to be around you long enough to have a conversation, dwelling on the fact that you have never achieved anything in your life and probably never will, and leave the adults alone, eh?
I suspect nothing will convince MH that he has no point. He has stopped listening, and keeps repeating the some nonsense over and over with a closed miind.
Ooo, ooo, scan your Mensa card for us next!!!!
If you’re that great a catch, you shouldn’t need to get someone drunk to get her to spend any time with you.
I understand the double entendre very well, it just makes the joke about one’s anatomy instead of piece of computer hardware. It doesn’t make is sexist.
And that was shown to be wrong. Intent isn’t a part of the equation as one can be sexist by means of ignorance or thoughtless. You ignore the social meanings behind the interaction, how these sexual jokes create a chilly environment in which women often feel uncomfortable. Which is sexism. It isn’t the joke, it is the thoughtlessness of the guys telling the joke that is the sexism.
BITCOINS AHAHAHAHAHAHA
No. My hostility is towards people who have, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION, uninformed opinions yet nevertheless feel compelled to share those ignorant and inaccurate opinions without first attempting to correct their ignorance. That’s you.
Because only idiots think it’s a smart thing to ignore what the experts have to say about a complex subject. You want to be an idiot? Then, please, continue ignoring the relevant research about the subject on which you’re opining.
Better English please. This sentence does not parse.
“Superlanguage”? No, I think the word you’re looking for here is CONTEXT. As in, dick jokes among friends at a poker game = not sexist, whereas dick jokes among professional colleagues during a presentation about initiatives aimed at welcoming more women into tech professions = definitely sexist. While you’re looking up “feminism 101” perhaps you can google “context” as well. It’s a very common English word; I’m sure knowing it will help your language skills.
You haven’t even offered a definition, only whined and moaned about how you think that some stuff isn’t sexist, and everybody should totally respect your opinion about what is or isn’t sexist, despite your own admission that you have no idea what sexism is.
Because you yourself stated that you did not realize that it was necessary to read any research about the subject before opining about it. Also because you asked “WHEREZ THE EVIDENCE?” in a thread that has been replete with links to peer-reviewed studies, i.e., FUCKING EVIDENCE.
I have no idea. I do know that if you refuse to inform yourself about the complex sociological phenomenon known as sexism, your opinion about it is fucking worthless.
But we do. You don’t listen to the answer. But then, why should you. You couldn’t claim victory. I know why it is mildly sexist. That is overtly apparent to anybody who has an idea about double meanings. Evidently, you don’t, and don’t care to learn.
@glodson
I turned a 1,200 dollar investment into bitcoin that are now worth about 80,000, I have god like investing skills, My investment into Stratasys a 3d printing comp has also paid off very handsomely, my parents had nothing to do with those. Even if I was born a poor black transgender girl I would still be more successful then you. Some people just are naturally better at life then others. Its not you fault though, hope you find happiness insulting people on the internet and working at McDonalds.
Time to paraphrase Molly Ivins.
JayJay was born on third base and thinks he has hit a triple.
@Markku Hanninen
My opinion on this is that people who engage in behaviour we consider unacceptable get their picture taken without their consent and displayed on the internet, in Newspapers and on the TV all the time. Once you concede that these two’s behaviour was unacceptable, the objection to displaying their picture online goes out of the window. Especially since it was just a picture; there were no names or personal details attached..
JayJay, you are full of shit.
You didn’t make that money. You would have started with that. But you didn’t. You bragged about your parents’ bankroll first.
And your parents have everything to do with it. You have demonstrated how stupid you are already, in this thread. You can keep bragging about your unearned money, we’ve already seen through your bullshit. And we’re laughing at you.
You are pathetic. You are stupid. You desperately wanted us to take you seriously, and when that didn’t work, you exposed yourself for the spoiled brat you are. Keep trying to convince us that you aren’t a loser.
Markku Hänninen:
The joke is “dongle” is a euphemism for penis or breast. The alleged humor is that a seemingly innocuous statement has a second sexual meaning. Which makes it sexist in the context we are discussing. An actual hardware dongle isn’t particularly amusing.
Oh looky, JayJay still isn’t house broken. He’s piddling all over our nice thread in the middle of his tantrum.
@John Jackson
What, made up and none-existent?
@thumper1990
I really have no interest in a relationship with anyone I have met yet, and my place is empty because I don’t need to have 10 roommates to afford such a killer place because I am successful. I might be a sociopath but if I wanted a girlfriend I would have no issues getting one, I am good actor but being “nice” gets old fast.
Yes if you where born poor you would have invested with ….what now?
Also invested not earned someone else actually did the work so you gambled
Prediction: we have a jackass trying to be everything he thinks we hate to rile us an get us defensive for the lulz.
I for one won’t play that game
Also my SATS where higher…and I have a reading disability so bow down before your intellectual superior, Handsom Jack
*the hypocrisy was intentional…that’s the joke
…I don’t know what’s more amusing, the fact that John thinks that a) SAT scores matter after high school or b) 1420 is impressive.
Hint – it’s not.
[off-topic: Obligatory note that college confidential is a horrible place and one that I’ve definitely left behind :D. Man, I was* a derp in high school]
[*No comments on current level of derpiness.]
And, hun, working for your parents isn’t impressive, ’cause we all know how you got that job, and it isn’t because of your resume.
Add that forking/fork is also an euphemism for coitus, it could be considered very sexist with the secondary meanings MH. You should have figured this out once somebody posted “double entendre” well upthread. Now will you fade into the bandwidth?
@thumper1990
I agree with you on that, Religion was a creation by smart people to control the weak and those to stupid to accept reality for what it is.
But you know what I mean, my returns are “godlike”.
also my bullshit detector is going haywire at bitcoin.
I’m not wealthy but was raised Ferengi.
Can anyone confirm my suspicion that it’s a fools gamble?
If he’s not a sociopath, JJ’s definitely suffering from narcissistic personality disorder–far be it from me to make internet diagnoses but when someone basically brags about their deficient personality it’s hard not to.
I don’t quite understand why people continue to humor him.
@ Ing
Jayjay is coming off as desperate. It is trolling, but he’s got to want something out of this. And he keeps flailing about, trying to come up with something. It was funny, at first. Now, it is pathetic.
John, do me a favor and make a list of ways to be like you. That way I can be sure never to do them. I have a thousand things wrong with me and right now I could hug each one of them because they aren’t nasty enough to make me like you.
You’re a lazy, pampered, narcissistic, sexist, bratty little, scumbucket. No amount of money you can pry from your pappy’s favor through nepotism will ever fix that for you. Sadly, the kind of work that could save you from that horrible fate of having to lay down and rise up with yourself each day is work you’d have to do for yourself and I don’t think you could manage. You may be typing on a golden laptop, but look at how you use it! To spew misogynist bullshit and brag about being a rapist! That is a kind of moral poverty that I hope to never know.
Next up from Jackson; My dad’s bigger than your dad.
It’s a fool’s gamble.
A quote from one of my friends: “The only reason I can make money off bitcoins is because MIT’s paying for my power bill.”
@John Jackson
Give it ten years, you sad, lonely parasite. And when mummy and daddy are dead and their money’s run out and your investments have devalued, and you’re sat at home because you’ve got no job because you couldn’t live up to your faked test scores, and you’re lonely and miserable and you’re watching the bailiffs remove the 70-inch plasma and you’re just wishing that you had someone there with you to relieve the boredom and share some love and companionship with and to help you get through this tough time… look back on this moment, and remember I called it.
I wonder what would have happened if Richards’s employer had said something like, “we stand behind and with our employee, and we don’t condone or succumb to harassment. As to the guy who lost his job, we also stand behind Richards’s efforts to help; as it happens, we have need of a tech-savvy person to track down the people who launched the attack on our company and attempted to shut us down, as well as those who made vile rape and death threats against Richards. We would like to take mr. x on trial to help us with these issues, and to investigate the feasibility of pursuing claims of tortious interference with our business.”
I don’t believe for one minute that Richards was impossibly damaged goods and that it was okay to fire her. If the people launching the attacks were people in the industry, which therefore (duh!) made it so impossible for Richards to function in that industry, then the people who should be eliminated from the industry are the attackers, not Richards.
Unlikely, but I can see how this explanation would be appealing to a sociopath.
And this is what we disagree on. I Agree if the joke would be sexual as in he is doing something sexual with his big dongle. But if it is just about the dongle it is not sexual, it is not sexist. Just having word dongle in it doesn’t make it sexual even if it means penis. Some people use fingers in sex, if the joke was about fingers, would the it be same? The point i’m doing that Richards created the context herself. If she thinks that penis is sexual in any context or joke, that is her problem. I thought so too when i giggled on my health classes when i was 13 years old. We have no knowledge that the joke itself was sexual except Richards saying so (and she said the same about forking).
Random guy telling random penis joke in random conference to his random friend is stupid and immature and not professional. But it isn’t sexual or sexist if there is no context or intent from the person who tells the joke and while it might create bad atmosphere, it has nothing to do with creating sexist atmosphere. Now i get it that there are studies that if penis jokes are told in workplace everyday allday it probably effect on sexist environtment, but you can’t apply it to random dude in random place even if it is a professional setting.
My question is that how is it that the word dongle meaning penis immdiately changes joke from normal to creating sexism? My opinionis it doesn’t, the context and intent would do it, but they are missing.
This one time, I made, like, 15 million points playing Galaga, because I’m a godlike gamer, then I tweeted about it using a gendered slur, but don’t worry, it’s not sexist because Markku says it’s not.
So Markku, if I said to you, “Hey, you know what? I have a really big penis!” there’s nothing at all sexual about that? Really? Really really?
John Jackson #948
…”Those too stupid to accept reality for what it is”.
Well dammit, I have to go buy yet another new Irony Meter. This one just ‘asploded! I’ve only had it since yesterday! I shall demand a refund.
I’ll have to continue this tomorrow. I hope everyone can get through the night without succumbing to despair when comparing themselves to John Jackson and wishing they had his Godlike investing skills.
I find it very interesting that John Jackson keeps posting things about how he’s rich and has a lot of possessions, and seems to think that’s:
a) Relevant to anything here;
b) Somehow validates his arguments;
c) Of any interest to anyone here, or;
d) Any combination of the above.
@ Ing:Intellectual Terrorist “Starting Tonight, People will Whine”
Coming up next, just for you my screen of my BTC wallet worth another 80k.
Because i’m such a nice guy i’m gona give you some investment advice. Now BTC is risky, the exchanges are rip offs who inflate and deflate the value at will to take advantage of the idiots (Wish I thought of it.). Personaly I would not invest in it now, when silkroad first showed up that was the time to get in. BTC main value is/was in the online illegal drug market/tax evasion/gambling markets. It seems the gov is going to at least attempt to crack down on these aspects of BTC. If you think the gov can shut down silk road and the tax evasion parts BTC stay far away. If you have less faith in the government being able to regulate btc you could possible still make a lot of money. If the government tries to address this issue and fails BTC will easily reach 200$ a coin.
You already have an answer. You either don’t understand the answer, or you are ignoring it to keep bringing up the same nonsense.
Penis jokes aren’t sexual in nature? What planet did you grow up on? Not this one, or in reality. You haven’t proven your case with evidence. All you do is repeat your inane and irrelevant talking points. You lose without evidence, as you, making the claim, must evidence your case to win.
Neither do I, but I don’t really know anything about that particular industry. However, the very fact that they have such a thing as “developer evangelists” suggests that they’re full of shit and buzzwords, and thus maybe the average employer would consider Richards to be a necessary sacrifice to the gods of The Bottom Line.
It has no second sexual meaning, it has second anatomical meaning. While i can use my penis to do sexual acts, i also piss pictures in snow with it. I’d say 95% or more of the time, my dongle isn’t doing anything sexual.
This JayJay guy is amazingly repellent. And you guys are missing a lot of the fun stuff — all his comments with racist slurs in them have been getting automatically shunted into the spam folder.
(The spam folder is hugely bloated right now. These threads about Adria have also drawn in swarms of racists who can’t control their language well enough to get past the filters.)
tFor some reason when Jayjay talks I stat hearing “no rest for the wicked”
Huh…stranger
Gee fuckwit, your sex organ has nothing to do with sex? What a load of tripe, bullshit, and self-serving lies. Talk about delusional fools.
Which is why most of us have not heard variations of “If you shake it more then three times, you are playing with yourself.” Such a funny, timeless and truthful joke.
*eyeroll*
Man, I thought the guy posting “retarded” over and over had reached the bottom – I didn’t realize it could go as low as posting pictures of what you claim is your stuff in a flailing effort to get any respect. So sad.
A friend of mine posted this quote just recently: “There are two things people want more than sex and money: recognition and praise.” I think John’s actions indicate he fits this pattern exactly.
JayJay is racist too?
Did that come of as feigned surprise? It should have, because he’s a heaping pile of stupid.
Markku Hänninen:
Can’t you see? The humor of the joke comes from the second sexual meaning of dongle. The dongle goes into a port (referring to sex,) the dongle is sticking out (referring to an erection or breast.) The sexual context is what makes it a joke!
How lovely. And how, somehow, not at all surprising.
Apparently i live somewhere where humour is more common and broader. There are tons of them and there are many which have nothing to do with sex or anything related.
Funny, I’ve never heard someone talk about how big their dongle is when it comes to urinating.
Grandpa Fernegis advice for stable profit was to never get involved in anything that smelt of Rico laws.
But I don’t think for a sec you’re honestly so wealthy, nice try
But oh well this ain’t no place for heroes
Markku, at your next staff meeting,* I invite you to make casual remarks about the state of your dongle and see how many people agree with you that there’s nothing necessarily sexual about mentioning your penis in a professional setting.
Then see how long you keep your job.
*Assuming you have a job with staff meetings; if not, apply where applicable.
@thumper1990
The reality is my life is fucking awesome anyway you look at it. You guys kept resorting to idiotic personal attacks even after I admitted you were right. So i’m just showing you the “moronic shithead sexist racist loser teenager” has been 10x more successful then you at 19
MH loses, as expected. Those with mere OPINION can never win a factual argument. They need to back up their OPINION with third party facts. Funny how they never, ever lead with those facts….
I doubt that your foolishness is a uniquely Finnish attribute. I’m pretty sure that’s just you. Don’t try to excuse your shortcomings and poor understanding of the world by insulting the rest of your fellow countrymen.
@maddog1129
Considering the fact that a) the tech skills needed to develop user programs are completely different from those needed to track down hackers and b) Anon probably just paid someone to DDOS Richard’s company, so trying to find the actual perps that way is kind of pointless, hiring mr_hank for those purposes is…really strange.
Not to say that he should have been fired, but her company hiring him…meh.
I get to talk about penises all the time at work if I want to, but then again, I’m a biologist.
And even then, I don’t get to talk about them however I want. Has to be in the proper context. If I were to make jokes about them, then I’d rightfully get slapped with a harassment case.
Nothing wrong with broad, rough humor. Also nothing wrong with openly rejecting it. So why are you guys so upset with the latter while so defensive with the former?
Markku
Dude, making penis jokes at work is almost always inappropriate.
Making penis jokes during a presentation about involving more women in STEM fields is always inappropriate, and clearly sexist.
#961 UnknownEric: A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Panama?
10 buck says Markku is going to say “If you’re not a work and it’s not your intention to be offensive/sexist/coming on.”
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#957 maddog1129
Ab-so-fucking-lutely. Too bad the company decided to be craven and sacrificed her to the wolves. Seriously, fuck that company. They should be boycotted now that they’ve shown support to the douchebros and reinforcing sexism.
hehe “staff” meeting
John, we’re trying to show you that you have a sadly withered, narrow, minimal view of “success” that none of us share.
And a shit load more successful than all of those pesky minorities also.
Portrait Of An Asshole As A Young Man
A) I don’t believe you
B) even if true you’re not a success. You’re a pet
Citizen’s arrest! Citizen’s arrest!
When I was 19, I was in college studying enthusiastically for a career in a discipline I found fascinating, and courting a girl I was madly, passionately in love with, who I would later marry.
I WIN!!!!
I don’t think MH understand the conference was run under fairly standard harassment guidelines, the same ones most employers us. And the people were representing their companie, with badges showing names and affiliations. It was work related and is judged by workplace rules, not pub after the hockey game rules.
“While I did make a big dongle joke about a fictional piece hardware that identified as male”
That is what the guy said about the joke. This is what Richards said:
“They started talking about “big” dongles. I could feel my face getting flustered.”
Now if this is not the whole story, but there comes dongles that eat something and do stuff and especially go to holes. Then i understand. But as far as those comments go from the situation from the people who were there, i don’t think so.
Markku
Hardcore forking action.
It might be shop-talk, but it doesn’t make it unfortunate.
I do understand and i approve contacting staff and challenging such jokers. That kind of behavior doesn’t belong to the conference. But that doesn’t make it sexist!
Oh Jayjay success usually doesn’t equate to a shnucker table
And that’s a bad miss
#969 PZ Myers
Totally unsurprised. I’ll have to find that link Pteryxx posted about how white feminist probably would’ve alllied more with Adria than the douchebros, if Adria had been white.
There’s just so many great resources up lately to find it…..and the dumbfucks claim we have no evidence or support for our arguments. *snort*