Here we go again. The Adria Richards story has settled into a couple of common themes, and Ars echoes the conventional wisdom. I’m very disappointed in this lazy editorial.
First, look at this nonsense:
Let’s start by spreading the blame where it’s deserved: on nearly everyone involved. The “Boy’s Club” mentality is thankfully no longer acceptable in tech, but it’s still common—some people have actually described tech to me as “men’s work.”
It’s no longer acceptable, but it’s common? Huh. Somebody didn’t think about what they were writing. We’ll just announce that the problem is nonexistent, while sweeping the reality of the situation aside.
But I’d like to point out something sneakier. Here’s the common message:
“Forking a repo” and “big dongles” must rank somewhere around “0.5: classless brospeak” on the seismic scale of harassing/menacing behavior toward women. While such sexually inappropriate comments are completely unnacceptable in professional settings (to many men as well as women), neither merits firing unless someone had a history of making unwelcome comments.
I think we all agree 100% that no one ought to have been fired over this incident. The major villains here are the two companies that used this event as an excuse to axe a couple of employees.
But notice what else everyone is saying: what the two guys did was trivial and minor, “‘0.5: classless brospeak’ on the seismic scale of harassing/menacing behavior toward women”. Keep that in mind for a moment. That kind of thing has been said a lot.
Yet these two men don’t get all of the blame. One recurring theme on message boards and chat rooms, including our own, is that while Richards had every right to report the behavior of the two men to conference organizers, snapping their photograph and posting it publicly to “Twitter shame” them was a step too far (speaking of a step too far, there are other, more repugnant recurring themes among commenters, too). They’re right; going public was not the only way Richards could get a relatively minor issue addressed. She could have confronted the two men or she could have gone straight to PyCon. Her actions only escalated the situation.
It’s a “relatively minor issue”. OK, let’s go along with that for a moment…let’s say it really was an inconsequential, negligible faux pas by the two guys. But if that’s the case, what is this bullshit?
…snapping their photograph and posting it publicly to “Twitter shame” them was a step too far…
Was it something to be ashamed of, or not? Was it a horrible, embarrassing thing to publicize, or was it a “relatively minor issue”? You don’t get to have it both ways. Either it was too damaging to make public, or it was a slight affront that shouldn’t seriously affect any of the participants — it was a minute impropriety that was perfectly reasonable to mention on a casual, conversational medium like Twitter.
This is what’s really pissing me off right now: the flagrant dishonesty of all these people having the vapors over someone posting a photo on Twitter and saying someone’s behavior was “not cool”. Jesus. Have they ever fucking used Twitter? It’s non-stop chatter — just today I’ve been accused of being a “Nazi” and of being “evil”. Please, Ars Technica, do your tut-tut routine right now over all the naughty people ‘Twitter shaming’ right and left. Please also express your sadness that thousands of tweets are going up right now ‘Twitter shaming’ Adria Richards in far more outrageous terms than “not cool.”
Are people seriously proposing that somehow Twitter should be policed for manners, and we should start wagging our fingers at people who dare to rebuke others via that medium? If so, half my correspondents are going to have to shut up. This is ridiculous. Richards’ comment was minor, was appropriate, and was addressing a real issue in a reasonable way.
And then there’s this:
In a blog post explaining the story in her own words, Richards wrote about how, over the course of the jokes, she moved from “I was going to let it go” to “I realized I had to do something.” The moment of decision came after seeing a picture of a young girl on the main stage who had attended a Young Coders workshop. “She would never have the chance to learn and love programming,” Richards wrote, “because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so.”
Clearly, this is hyperbole. These two guys weren’t going to prevent anybody from doing anything. Suddenly, a couple off-color jokes represented all the serious forces that can hold women back from tech careers. While denouncing bad behavior certainly has its place, proportion is important—and this approach to these jokes simply makes it harder to have a sincere discussion about misogyny and men’s/women’s issues in the workplace.
It’s only hyperbole if you misinterpret it. No, I doubt Richards thought these two guys were going to run up on the stage and slap awards off the podium and denounce the young girl being recognized. Richards was referring to a culture that considers those kinds of off-color remarks reasonable in a professional setting. Remember, “it’s still common”. That is what inhibits women from participating in these opportunities.
We’re living in a world where those off-color jokes are dismissed as “classless brospeak”, not worth making a fuss over, while someone tweeting a picture of someone engaging in “classless brospeak” is a disproportionate response, and “makes it harder to have a sincere discussion about misogyny and men’s/women’s issues in the workplace”.
But unwanted sexual innuendo doesn’t? Both men and women make jokes about sex, of course, and there’s a tricky line to be drawn between what’s appropriate and what isn’t, but one of the things I’m seeing all over the place is that in the conversation about where to draw the line, women are expected to shut up; that when they do speak up, however mildly, and say “not cool” or “guys, don’t do that”, boom, the guyverse explodes and denounces the damned uppity woman in either the most furious and violent terms possible, or with polite little suggestions that maybe they should be quieter next time.
But you know, the latter is almost as bad as the former. It’s the privilege of the majority to use politeness to maintain the status quo, while it’s a necessity for the minority to assert the right to offend.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha *gasp* Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha *oh, gotta breathe* hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA alpha male HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Schedenfreude! Making the world a better place! To beeee!
Nigel:
I think we now know why little John rapes drunk women, so he can tell himself he’s an alpha male.
Jadehawk:
He reminds me of my semi-well-off neighbor when I was growing up. His mom bribed other kids to play with him, and he spent most of his time showing off his expensive toys in a desperate bid for attention.
I’m wondering if ol’ Johnny’s folks had to bribe other kids to come over and play with him. He certainly seems desperate for attention and approval.
Nigel:
Oh gods, how sad.
Do you suffer from depression?
You may be victim to this common mental condition which stems from not being with alpha males like JJ. If you have more than three of these warning signs, consult your doctor. You may experience:
If you feel someone you know may be suffering from this specific type of depression, it pays to be aware of
If you seek help, it’s possible to live with this kind of depression. Boy, is it ever.
oh Chris, you have such a great way with words (and grammar, and spelling…)
Jadehawk:
It’s terribly attractive, having a way with words and grammar and spelling…
Caine:
The bribes weren’t big. She’d plan little “parties,” and she’d have nice toys waiting for us. I didn’t realize what was going on until many years later.
I eventually grew to honestly like him. He turned out far better than JJ here. He graduated, went to a private university, studied law, and became a helicopter pilot. (The last is just a rumor I heard, but seems perfectly reasonable.)
Vis Caine and Jadehawk:
That’s what makes me an alphabet male.
Nigel:
That’s nice to hear. :) Unfortunately, I don’t think that’s where little John is heading. More’s the pity.
Chris Clarke:
I’m really, truly trying my hardest not to be jealous.
But I just snorted tea out my nose. My precious rep is in tatters.
Chris:
Oh careful, Chris, there may be swooning.
Any other gay gals laughing their asses off even harder now?
Haha, you mean that fuck trying to defend the vile frathouse chant? Fuck, at least that chucklefuck was a republican unicorn – believed in UHC, scalling back our wars and drone attacks, and the death penalty while proclaiming pro-lilfe bullshit. Granted, I’m reasonably sure he was faking that support, but even the self-awareness to recognize that’s necessary is rare.
…as a nineteen-year-old college student, may I apologize on the behalf of the rest of us?
….we’re not all self-absorbed douchebags, I promise.
Caine:
Yeah. I know. I just found the similarities between the two striking: a kind of bragging about wealth and ownership rather than accomplishment, a lack of anything resembling interesting conversation, and a constant need for positive attention, and so on. The repetitive insistence that we’re just jealous echoes something I’ve seen parents tell their kids for years when they come home crying: “Those kids are just jealous of you.”
When in fact, no, it’s not jealousy at all.
In any case, my friend outgrew his insecurities well before he turned 19. I’d say it’s sad in a 10-year-old, but pathetic in a 19-year-old, but really, it’s sad then, too. But at least JJ can bribe his own acquaintances with alcohol. For those brief few hours between buzzed and blacked out, he can pretend there are people that like him. At least, when they’re drunk.
Anyway, I’ve already spent more time reacting to this douche factory than is reasonable. My tea is gone (thanks for that, Chris). It’s bed-time.
Chris Clarke @1507/1511,
If you ever, ever need someone to clean out a rabbit hutch and/or run for you, you have earned it, in perpetuity, from me, for making me smile so hard.
nightshadequeen:
That is so not necessary. You have been a fantastic voice here, you’re knowledgeable, compassionate and a decent human being. That’s apparent. You can also manage words. And grammar. And spelling.
You know I’m also a white male college student who has never had to work for anything in my entire life. This doesn’t make me feel proud of myself, it makes me feel concerned and vaguely embarrassed: I recognize how lucky I’ve been my life and how different my experience has been with the rest of humanity.
Basically what I’m saying is that racial and socioeconomic backgrounds are no surefire measure of whether a person is okay or a completely shitty scumbag racist sexist who has who is incredibly poor when they come to ethicality and empathy.
At least MB was coherent… is JJ for real, or is xe a spambot with some really bad adaptation routines? I laughed out loud.
Also, Caine, when are, uh, you gona get ur boat
??
Can we have a party?
@ nightshadequeen:
Speak for yourself…. at 19 I was an absolute douchebag, I promise. Much, much later, I’m still working at it. Props* for skipping the interim period.
* Do the youth of today still use this lingo? Do they say lingo? I’m getting old…
Omnicrom:
We know. I grew up in a wealthy family. I’m not a shitty scumbag.
Patrick:
I have a lovely canoe. I’d be happy to take you out for a paddle. If that’s not your cuppa, every freaking person we know has a boat of some form or another.
And there you have it. As far as I can tell from his incoherent idiocy this refers to me asking if he was going to stop profiting from facilitating rape.
I would not be the person you are JJ for 100K or 1000K or for any sum of money at all. Everything you value has come at the cost of basic human decency and as omnicrom points out even that was not a forgone conclusion. You are nothing but a contemptible piece of human excrement in the shape of whiny, privileged dood-bro.
im betting 1000 bitcoins and 30 gold koopa koins JJ presents no pics tomorrow of this imaginary party
Ing:
I’m not the least bit interested in viewing such pics, imaginary or no. I’m not sure why little John thinks that would be at all convincing, anyway. It’s not like any of us didn’t party (or don’t) party and have no idea at all of what drunk teens look like.
Oh, I thought it was in reference to him so “generously” allowing his science fair partner (who we can be sure did all the work) get the internship this summer that he stole from her last summer.
I just figured out what John reminds me of. He’s GOB Bluth, but without even having magic as a delusion of a career.
Carlie:
I was clueless, I had to do a search. From the wiki:
Sounds about right.
I think its pretty sad that the level of hypersensitivity has risen to the point where jokes about “dongles” and “repo forking” are considered the height of sexual inappropriateness.
Frankly, I don’t think either party did much wrong here, both the jokes and the tweet should be considered legally protected free speech. It does seem though that Adria went out of her way to eavesdrop on someone else’s conversation. It would have been much simpler to simply explain to them that they needed to be quieter, because she has a personal problem with PG rated vaguely sexual humor. No one should have been fired over this, it should simply have been ignored like a silly dongle joke.
If JJ is an alpha male I’m glad I’m a delta or gamma male.
INORITE! Jesus, the way those fucking police came and arrested them and threw them in jail (or so they say) and then the government deleted all mention of tweets and jokes and banned books and stuff… Who will freeze the peaches, I ask you?
Crap. Borkquote. All hail Tpyos.
Trying again:
Hamish Cook:
yeah no, that’s not what happened in the real world. Neither of these.
Uo HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO
Ah, FREEZE PEACHERs, never change. You realize that freedom of speech typically only matters with, yanno, government interference, right? I mean, it’s possible for corporations to start engaging in honest-to-god censorship if, but as a rule, it requires the government. The dude who got fired was fired for fucking up his code of conduct too much – that’s not a matter of free vs. protected speech at all.
Women are not obligated to be nice to tools who are behaving unprofessionally at a professional venue. If those dudes wanted politeness, they shoulda been polite, not talking during a motherfucking panel.
Hamish: there are four pages of comments. Read them all before commenting. If you feel that is too onerous, then you obviously don’t care enough to educate yourself on what has happened before you arrive, which means we don’t need to care enough to respond to any of your comments. It’s just common politeness, really. Do you barge into conversations at parties and try to force people to listen to you even though you don’t know what the conversation was about before you walked in? Hopefully not. Give us the same courtesy.
And again, if you feel this is too onerous of a request, then you can feel free to not comment. We don’t take kindly to uninformed screeds.
Last night I started reading this thread and finally caught up this morning. Dear Lard! I have been experiencing nonstop fits of laughing, sniggering, snorting and giggling at the responses to JJ since he first showed up on the thread.
You are awesome and wonderful, Horde.
That’s all I got.
You do realize that in 30 years, Jay Jay will be the GOP candidate for President of the United States (George W. Bush, Rmoney)?
WHOA, that was a long read. The Horde has been busy, haven’t you?
So, to sum up: JJ is still a rapey, useless, entitled arsehole who doesn’t understand the meaning of the word “nepotism” or indeed the difference between “your” and “you’re”; and Hanninen turned out to be a whiny tone troll who is so boring that I ended up skipping most of his posts.
And we’ve just got rid of those two and holy fuck, in rides Hamish McFuckface on his peach coloured horse to prove to everyone that he hasn’t bothered to read an account of what actually happened.
“… And the love kickstarts again”
We’re getting down to the trolls extracted from shale sands. My understanding is that even getting them out of the ground pollutes a lot more, and then they’re no less polluting in use here.
We should have conserved!
Hamish McFuckface, I love it! I can see everyone’s very very concerned and jumpy about the fact that I would dare post a dissenting view, and that’s fine. One or two of you called me a troll, which is inaccurate. A troll says things they don’t really believe to get an amusing reaction. While the reaction to my comment has been amusing, the opinion I expressed was completely genuine.
There was one other point I wanted to pick out from amongst the inane name calling, not that I’m against inane name calling of course, but it does sound odd coming from people claiming to have the moral high ground. Freedom of speech is of course a legal term, and laws around it are designed to stop governments restricting the expression of their citizens. I’m aware of this, but freedom of speech is more than that. It’s also a guiding principle of how we conduct ourselves in society, that society is a marketplace of ideas and we shouldn’t try to shut people up because we are offended by what they say. That’s the freedom of speech I was talking about, though obviously I’m also glad that they couldn’t be arrested for their joke!
Quick side note: If Adria is so concerned about sexual humour preventing girls getting into programming, why did she make a (pretty funny!) dick joke on her own Twitter just days before this incident?
Anyway, feel free to abuse me some more if it makes you feel better, I won’t be offended. Even if I am I can assure you I won’t post pictures of you on Twitter complaining about it.
Hamish:
Every.
Single.
One.
Of your points.
Has.
Been.
Dealt.
With.
Repeatedly.
In this thread, which is over 1500 posts now.
And in the previous thread, which is over 1900.
You have said exactly nothing new.
Go.
Read.
Learn.
@docfreeride
Well here at Pharyngula Troll Conservation Concern (PTCC), we appear to have inadvertantly established two Troll Reservations; the Adria Richards Troll Reservation and the Ars Technica Troll Reservation, and appear to be hard at work on a third, the Ask An Ethicist Troll Reservation. These three areas are unfamiliar to the trolls, being an invasive species, but provide vast expanses of intellectual wilderness with frequent outcrops of Logic and rivers of Good Argument which we expected the trolls to pay careful attention to, perhaps even altering their habits as a result of the presence of such topographical features. However they seem to be ignoring such outcrops and watercourses completely, occasionally going so far as to blunder straight into them, injuring their credibility (located on their face just above their arsehole, and roughly analogous to a human nose) in the process.
In retrospect Pharyngula may not have been the best habitat in which to establish a troll reservation, as the indigenous species are known to be hostile to trolls and to particularly dislike the stench of idiocy (the scientific name for the pheremone trolls use to attract other members of their species), resulting in aggressive behaviour towards their new co-habitors.
The aggressiveness of the indiginous species and their refusal to put up with the stench of idiocy appears to have resulted in reduced numbers of trolls on the various reservations, however numbers do seem to be making a comeback in the AEE Reservation.
And here comes Hamish Cook, making exactly the same points that have already been destroyed. However, purely because it serves to get the thread back to the original subject (more or less), I’m going to actually address it properly:
Nobody is saying it’s the ‘height of sexual inappropriateness’. Nobody. At all. What is being said is that they were sexual jokes that were inappropriate in a sexist manner. Which is true.
If you’re saying no legal ramifications should be brought against either party, I agree – and so do most, if not all people here. And Adria Richards. And PyCon. And the two men making the ‘jokes’ (I presume, at least, as they did say Richards was right and apologise for making the ‘jokes’). However, if you’re saying that the jokes should have been allowed to continue, then I completely disagree. They were completely inappropriate for the context of where and when they were made, and Adria had every right to complain to PyCon about them being made to get someone to have a word and get them stopped, or the men removed. They would then be perfectly free to continue making those jokes, just not at the conference.
BZZT. Wrong. They were made as Adria was basically striking up a conversation with these two guys (unless you want to claim that Adria is flat-out lying when she said this was the case).
Well, leaving aside that sexual forking jokes and big dongles isn’t vaguely sexual humour, but fairly blatant sexual ‘humour’, she already tried this with someone else earlier on, and she got the fairly typical reaction experienced by women in that situation – the guy belittled and ignored her. As such, she had no reason to think this time would be any different.
No, it should have been dealt with by the PyCon staff having a quiet word with the two guys involved, letting them know that wasn’t acceptable. This, in fact, happened, causing the guys to say that Richards was right, and apologise, according to PyCon. Apart from that, you’re basically correct. Guess what? This is what Adria Richards is saying, and what everyone here is agreeing with.
@Hamish Cook
Hamish, there’s nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion. It’s just that this thread is now at over 1500 comments, and the vast majority of it has been spent convincing people of certain truths only to have another person come in and express exactly the saem opinion, at which point we are expected to treat their argument as if it’s very clever and original and worthy of serious consideration, and will have to then spend ages convincing them of the same truths which we convinced the last twenty of their compatriots of. We are, I think understandably, weary of this process.
Go to the beginning of the thread, or of the Adria Richards Did Everything Right thread, and read the whole thing. I promise you all your questions have already been answered.
Actually Hamish, it might be better to read the Adria Richards Did Everything Exactly Right thread, since the hilariously odious John Jackson managed to make a good portion of this thread all about him.
Like I said, we’re all rather weary and we needed the distraction.
Hamish Cook:
It’s not that you posted a dissenting view. It’s that you did so in complete ignorance of the entire conversation that came before. Had you brought this up in the beginning, you would’ve received a slightly different reaction.
Again, you display your ignorance. This has been discussed.
But, it’s a simple thing to answer: context. It’s not that these sorts of jokes offend her. It’s that they are inappropriate in a work-related venue like an IT convention such as PyCon. In those situations, they are used by males as a dominance tactic. This relates to privilege: males have greater social power in general, but especially in strongly male-dominated fields like IT. The use of sexual jokes is a tactic used to remind women they are the minority, and make them feel uncomfortable, thereby creating a chilling effect.
This is all very well-researched sociology.
Where Adria makes a dick joke in a non-work-related setting, that’s not her using sexual jokes as a silencing tactic.
Now. Please. Try to keep up.
Gee, try reading for comprehension and context, as it has been covered above. Not the height of inappropriateness, but just inappropriate for the workplace, like it always has been, which anybody who can think and has had harassment training knows. That’s why your OPINION is inappropriate and *floosh* sent to the sewage system. Try again, with real evidence, not just your hyperbolic OPINION.
Hey, at $100+ an hour JJ’s posts are worth a lot of money. And we get to read them for free!
I’m cross posting this from Skeptchick:
http://boingboing.net/2013/03/26/girls-kickstarter-to-go-to-r.html
I’d like to note the parallel in the comment section about the little girl’s kickstarter program and the threats she and her mother have received and the comments being made about Adria Richards and the threats she has received. In both cases people (but mostly often men) are rushing to gloss over the horrific treatment the women involved were subjected to in order to scrutinize the behavior of those women. That’s sexism. It is so ugly and so obvious, yet the people doing it seem completely oblivious to it. To see people completely desensitized to women and girls being harassed, lied about and threatened while remaining hyper vigilant in policing the actions of the same women and girls causes my heart to sink. There is so much more cause for activism than I realized.
Added: Bwahahaha! The Elmer J. Fudd jokes actually made my eyes water. The “donated mucus” just had me nodding in agreement.
Sorry fuckwitted inane unknowing twit, but there is no freedom of speech in the workplace. Everything you said beyond this point is *floosh* sent to sewage plant as excrement. If you have a point, start with case law on harassment.
They have no freedom of speech on the job. Prove otherwise with case law. You can’t. Making you a liar and bullshitter. Try to keep it real.
I’m always amazed by how niaf freeze peach absolutists are. No idea of reality. No idea of inappropriate. Almost like they put their head up their ass, and can’t see anything beyond the dark hole of slogans and non-thought.
I was gone disent but then I remembered my frozen peeches in teh back seet of my supertanker and I godda get them to this party b4 all the girl’s miss my. You’re just jellis I can deliver best in class experience with the hottest girl’s on campus while you’re not. I worked for all my bank and you cant stand that im not stupid and pore like you.
Peas out.
@Hamish Cook
The part you’re missing when you’re chanting ‘FREEZE PEACH! FREEZE PEACH!’ is that yes, the two guys have freedom of speech which protects their big dongle jokes, et al. However, PyCon have no obligation to allow them to exercise inappropriate ‘free speech’ within the confines of the conference. They have a Code of Conduct detailing what is and is not appropriate, and sexual jokes about forking and big dongles isn’t. So, even if I were to ignore the simple fact that your assertion that Adria was basically going out of her way to make trouble was wrong, all that Adria would have been doing was ensuring PyCon were enforcing their own Code of Conduct.
@thumper1990
Reasonableness! Thanks a lot. 1500 posts is a lot to wade through and I admit to skimming parts. I won’t ask you to explain how you think I’m wrong, If I really cared I’d do what you suggest and spend a couple of hours going through the thousands of comments, separating the logical argument from the vitriolic ranting etc, but it really doesn’t matter to me that much.
I will take one positive thing from all this though. This incident has really emphasised the importance of being aware of your audience when making jokes. These guys forgot that not only were they in a professional setting, but they were in public where strangers could hear them. When you don’t know the people around you you have no idea what they might take offence to.
@Jackie:
I read about that Kickstarter, at first it read like a scam to get a kid sent to summer camp for free, but it does seem like there is an eventual product involved that the backers get. Not something I’d choose to fund but they do seem to have been completely honest about where the money is going. Most of the discussion has been around whether the project violates Kickstarter rules, you’re not supposed to use it to fund educational fees or personal expenses. While what they’re doing could be considered immoral, its not anywhere near as bad as threatening their lives.
@zmidponk
Good explanation, thanks.
Of course posting the picture on twitter was definitely “going out of her way to make trouble”, and that’s fine, sometimes trouble has to be made. I guess like PyCon has a policy against sexual humour, Adria’s work has a policy against shaming people on the internet for their inappropriate humour, which is why she got fired. Those are the rules and both parties broke them. As I said originally, its really unfortunate that people lost their jobs over this.
No Hamish, she didn’t get fired because she violated any company policy. They just caved.
It’s true that neither party should have lost their jobs over the PyCon incident.
What you appear to be missing is that NOBODY is saying the dude should have been fired over the PyCon incident.
And you also appear to be missing the fact that the dude WAS NOT fired for the PyCon incident.
You really do need to do your homework.
Opinions before facts like Hamish means *floosh*, opinion is sewage. Do your homework Hamish. Read both threads, 3500+ posts. Then, and only then, will you have even a slightly informed opinion.
Hammish,
You are like a poster child for clueless wanking. Go read the threads suggested and stfu until you do.
Sweet Cheebus, between JJ’s incoherent rants and Chris’s public service announcement…must catch breath….tee-hee, tee-hee.
Really, you only need a few hundred to get to your points, if that. You didn’t exactly say anything novel.
If you want not to be insulted for presenting obviously wrong points, you’re not in the right place. Try not presenting obviously wrong points.
Welcome to the world since basically forever.
Oh Madogoddess above I can’t take all this mealy mouthed bullshit! All this talk about what the people getting threatened did wrong and a one line throwaway about the, yanno, threats?
What are you, in 1990? She’s a tech professional; she took a picture on her phone, used that phone to send a tweet (IE one of the simplest forms of communication) with a matching hashtag. I’ll be surprised if it took more than 2 minutes! If that’s ‘out of your way’ then what the hell kinda way are you walking?
Okay, A: “Not cool” isn’t shaming. You assholes have no fucking idea what the hell you’re talking about with ‘shaming’. Even if it were shaming, and let’s not play fucking games, it isn’t, some forms of shame are okay – stop trying to appropriate the conversations about slut shaming. That is an actual problem because it’s a grossly unfair standard that causes serious harm, not because shame was leveraged at some point in the history of the world.
B: No, actually, she got fired because she was terrorized at her job and her employers kowtowed to actual terrorists; if whatever 4chaners harrassed her were principally composed of brown muslims, it would even be called that on the news. Which, again, you’d know if you read more than nothing about this, and weren’t just interested in blaming women for all the bullshit sexism we put up with.
Well the statement the company released said she was fired because her actions reflected poorly on them. I’d say most companies have a policy against doing anything that reflects poorly on the company or embroils it in controversy. I wish they hadn’t fired her, but I can see why they did. She obviously didn’t intend for this to become such a huge deal and it’s not her fault that it did, but I can see why a company would “cave” as you said, in an attempt to make it all go away.
As for the guy who was fired, I read a rumour he was actually fired for a DDOS attack of some sort. I haven’t seen an official statement from his employer so I don’t know if that’s true.
@Nerd of Redhead: You really like saying “*floosh*”! That makes you cool! I had a go at reading some more of both threads, unfortunately many of you are so intensely unpleasant and aggressive towards anyone you don’t agree with, your points come off as completely incoherent ranting.
I think zmidponk had the best explanation of the general consensus here, so I’ll just go with that rather than trying to plough through all the hate and swearing.
Hamish, you got it completely backwards.
Her company got DDOS’ed, his didn’t.
Please complete your readings before trying again with another theory.
@Hamish
No problem. For the record, the hostility stems from the weariness mentioned above.
Exactly.
Indeed.
They do. from what I understand they class sexualised jokes directed at a member of the opposite sex as sexual harrassment.
No. She was fired because some virulently misogynistic arseholes from the internet cesspit that is 4chan launched a DOS attack against her company because they disagreed with her actions. The company was attacked because of their association with her and she became a liability. That’s why she was fired. And apparently California has some stupid employment laws which mean this is perfectly legal. She doesn’t even have grounds for claiming wrongful dismissal, even though that’s quite blatantly what it was.
Yes. No one should have lost their job over this.
Hamish Cook:
So, first of all, Adria was ‘making trouble’ by ‘involving herself in other people’s conversations’, which I point out is wrong, now Adria was ‘making trouble’ by posting a picture on Twitter with the comment ‘not cool’, then asking the PyCon staff to have a word, which, quite frankly, is laughable to characterise as ‘makeing trouble’. Why are you so determined to make out that Adria was ‘making trouble’?
I’m glad you see that drawing attention to things like that is a good thing.
Are you actually familiar with the circumstances surrounding this incident in any sort of detail at all? I ask, because that is quite simply not what happened. What Adria did was fine by her employers – until certain trolls and wastes of human skin decided to run a DDoS attack against them. Then, it magically became that ‘her actions have strongly divided the same community she was supposed to unite. As a result, she can no longer be effective in her role at SendGrid.’
In other words, they only ‘support the right to report inappropriate behavior, whenever and wherever it occurs’, as long as no-one at all disagrees with that.
@nightshadequeen Ah yes, thanks for that. Interesting to see the perpetrator’s side of the story. I don’t believe him at all that the “I’d fork his repo” joke wan’t supposed to be sexual. Still, I’m glad he apologised. The internet sure does love a good drama doesn’t it…
Hamish Cook:
Actually, according to Adria, it wasn’t. ‘Forking a repo’ is actually a legitimate tech term. However, after he said that, the other guy started making sexual jokes about ‘forking’.
@zmidponk You believe she was fired because of trolls and the DDoS attack, the company claims it was because she “strongly divided the same community she was supposed to unite”. You may well be right, but don’t pretend that is a cut and dry fact when there are conflicting accounts from the parties involved.
And I think this bears repeating – isn’t it interesting that, after what is characterised by some as Adria crossing the line into ‘public shaming’ of these two guys, we’re still saying ‘this guy’ and ‘the other guy’ because we don’t even know their names?
It is. They voiced support, then withdrew it after the DDOS attacks. The DDOS attacks were not the first rumbling of disagreement. They caved. Is there any length you won’t go to, to make this her fault?
Funny how death and rape threat makes it looks like the community is strongly divided. If only nothing was done, we could have the illusion of united community.
@zmidponk
#1564
Just looked up some of California’s wrongful termination info.
http://www.ca-employment-lawyers.com/Wrongful-Termination.htm
“In the legal sense of the phrase as used under California state law, “good cause” means “fair and honest reasons, regulated by good faith on the part of the employer, that are not trivial, arbitrary, or capricious, unrelated to business needs or goals, or pretextual. A reasoned conclusion, in short, supported by substantial evidence gathered through an adequate investigation that includes notice of the claimed misconduct and a chance for the employee to respond.”
Important points, I think, are bolded.
unrelated to business needs or goals – Well… the business need/goal is to keep their SMTP cloud service online. Firing her would achieve that need/goal.
But then again…
the claimed misconduct and a chance for the employee to respond. – I don’t think Adria committed any misconduct, unless the company has one of the misconduct defined as something like “Taking actions resulting in substantial harm to the company.”
@zmidponk
#1565
I think it’s more like “As long as no-one commit cyber-attacks against them.”
Hamish Cook:
Leaving aside the simple fact that SendGrid are saying that they support Adria complaining about inappropriate behaviour wherever and whenever it occurs by firing her due to the fact other people, not even involved with this incident, showed their disagreement with her making those complaints, there’s the simple fact that because she ‘strongly divided the same community she was supposed to unite’, as they worded it, is simply not ‘because she broke our employment policy on public shaming’, which is what you claimed.
@Rutee Katreya
It’s not up to me to make it her fault or not. Her company said it was her fault, you say they’re lying. It sounds suspicious that they decided to fire her after initially voicing support, but since none of us were involved in the decision we don’t actually know. Either way, it sucks that she got fired.
@Goodbye Enemy Janine
Yes, death and rape threats are awful. People say awful things on the internet. I think the chances of her actually getting raped or killed over this are extremely slim, thankfully. That doesn’t stop the comments being hurtful and frightening and I’m sorry she’s had to go through that, all over one tweet about some dicks and their dick jokes.
Hopefully everyone has learned a valuable lesson from all this, and people will think more carefully next time they want to crack a dirty joke in a professional setting. Hopefully people will also follow the official policy on reporting inappropriate conduct, rather than taking the rules into their own hands.
@WharGarbl
She could well have a case for wrongful termination, I presume she’s already taking legal advice.
Anyway everyone, this has been a really interesting discussion and I appreciate the time taken to explain your points of view. I’m going to bed now. Goodnight!
@Hamish Cook:
So far, you seem determined to make this Adria Richards’ fault, in some manner, and you’re doing this by either making points that have been made before by others, and shown to be wrong, or simply making shit up. One question:
Why is it so important to you that it HAS to be Adria Richards fault?
You how to immediately spot someone who isn’t at all an “alpha male”? He calls himself one.
Tell that to actual people who had to take actual precautions because of threats online.
And those people made those threats because they felt the need to protect the right to say dick jokes, dicks jokes that were not supposed to be said because of convention policy.
You are not doing to well in this argument.
@Hamish
So not the point.
Just out of interest, Hamish, what was Pycon’s official policy?
Then why are you trying so goddamn hard? For fuck’s sake, you invented a ‘public shaming’ policy out of wholecloth, so desperate were you to pin this on her.
Oh, so now we don’t know, but when you were barrellin’ on through, we knew it was because she broke her company’s ‘no public shaming’ policy? Now we’re supposed to put on our hyperskeptic hats and wait for peer review? No dice, cupcake.
What the fuck. You’re still blaming it on her, for doing nothing wrong, and not a god damn bit on the actual people making threats? You are a piece of human garbage. Stop talking forever, and do everyone else a favor.
It seems to me that all the comments made by people like, most recently, Hamish, can be boiled down to the meaning “Now I’m scared that someone will overhear me acting like a sexist asshole and do something about it and I will finally have to face consequences from acting like an entitled dudebro.”
Yesterday something terrible happened that will haunt me for ever, I was a victim of severe sexual molestation. Everyone was having a great time but I let my guard down after I had to much to drink, and that was when she struck. I was molested while I was blacked out and basically unresponsive, I don’t remember very much of what happened but I have video evidence and witnesses of this horrific crime that will haunt me for the rest of my life, as soon as I figure out how to blur my face in the video to protect my self from the rapist defenders and victim blamers I will post the video here, 4 chan, and reddit. I am allowed to not wear pants and get drunk in my own house, that does make it ok to molest me.
Thank you guys for giving me the courage to strand up and shout that rape is not a victim less crime. I am currently in the process of making sure this animal never has the opportunity to violate someone again. I will preserver and stay strong.
John Jackson:
There are people who comment on this blog who are survivors.
You have already admitted that you get women drunk so you can rape them.
You are a execrable human being and you are actively hurting people here. Please leave.
@brother
You are a victim blaming loser with no sense of justice. I have NEVER been accused of any crime, having sex with girls who have been drinking at a party were you have also been drinking is not rape, its sex. You are a delusional moron if you think a comparison can be made between molesting someone who is black out and two people having sex after drinking.
JayJay, you are not funny. You are a sneering miscreant.
Who gives a shit what a liar and bullshitter like you claim? You couldn’t tell the truth period, so anything and everything you say is *floosh* dismissed with prejudice. I suspect there have been complaints file. How many payoffs by daddy? We are realists. You are a blowhard.
No. I am a victim. I was raped by my scoutmaster from the age of ~8 to 10. I was given alcohol, subjected to peer pressure, involved in child pornography, coerced into abusing others. And yes, I am a victim blamer because I have spent years blaming myself for what happened.
You have come here and confessed that you get women drunk so they cannot say no and you think this is consent. You are a rapist who is in denial. And you are actively hurting people here.
Please leave.
Having sex with someone who is not able to consent is rape.
Plying drinks to someone with the intention of having sex while removing the ability to consent makes you a premeditated rapist.
This is not victim blaming. This placing the blame directly onto you, JayJay.
Being rich scum still makes you just scum.
@Goodbye Enemy Janine
You think sexual assault should be funny? Your disgusting.
@Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
Ya keep believing you are justified to victim blame and attack me cause you dislike me, I have video evidence and witnesses to this horrific crime. I am standing up victims of sexual assault everywhere and doing my part to remove the stigma surrounding men who report sexual assaults on them. I am a hero hero fighting to bring more notice to the FACT that sexual violence can happen to everyone regardless of race sex or sexuality.
John Jackson:
I thought you said you were intelligent?
Such a pathetic attempt at trolling, chumbucket.
You are a piss poor example of a human.
An open call for any monitor. It is time for JayJay to leave the blog.
Gee, you blame the victim immature fuckwitted brat. If you quit lying and bullshitting, you might make some sense. But since you are too immature and too dumb to keep your lies staight, you come off like a irrational drug addict making no sense.
John,
You are a moron.
JJ! You came back!
Well, seeing as you passing out drunk and being molested at your mythical magical house party was a scenario you used yesterday as part of one of your “arguments”, you can understand my skepticism regarding your claims. I would like to point out, since we’re on the subject, that since there are genuine rape survivors on this site and therefore making that kind of story up is definitely not OK. It is quite frankly reprehensible and you may very well have caused real harm to several people with that post.
In short, you are still a piece of shit, and you are still going to die alone and poor after spunking all of mummy and daddy’s inheritance money up the wall because you are a useless wanker who could never hold down a job.
You are quite frankly a waste of oxygen. The best way you could serve humanity right now is to move to an area famed for it’s arable farming and spend your time providing fertiliser for the crops… by talking to them.
Christ, if he spent his time communicating with the plants then at least we wouldn’t have to read his atrocious grammar and syntax.
Creepy privileged assclam is creepy. The sooner he ODs the better.
Wow, If I did’nt see this for my self I wouldn’t believe it! Joe Jackson I hope you make that son of a bitch pay. You nazis are despicable you try to act like you want equality but your true feeling are out, you want to dominate men and have them as second class citizens you can rape at will. /pol/ supports you john hopefully your story blows up and these witchs hypocrisy are shown to the world.
WTF?
You seem lost. There are signs posted everywhere with explanations. I’m sure you can find your way out.
a_ray_in_dilbert_space
….I agree that JJ is creepy as fuck, but can we please refrain from wishing death on him?
mentoa2:
Best impression of a clueless noob evar.
I am looking forward to spring break ending so all of these POS entitled assholes such as JJ and now mentoa2 will not be here stinking up the threads.
I’m guessing sock.
Also I’m 97% sure that JJ is making everything up.
Ooh, spring break, didn’t even think of that. Explains so much.
John Jackson has lingered here far too long. Banned.
Also suspicious: he’d begun morphing his login, probably in anticipation of this development. He now has multiple entries in the filter file.
To repeat: Trolling and sock puppetry.
PZ
Thank you.
Ah, sockpuppets.
Thanks, he long overstayed his welcome.
Woodwork creaks and out comes the freaks.
Groan
I feel like we’re playing asshole tag in here. One leaves, another one pops his head up.
thebellicose:
Feminazis? Really? Oh, noes! Expecting men and women to be treated as equals is just like the Nazis!
Y’all are so cute in your privileged righteous indignation.
Really, though, assuming you’re not just JJ’s smegma-encrusted sockpuppet, you might go back and look at the guy you’re defending. He’s trolling. The reason for our disbelief isn’t that he’s male — there are several men here who have been raped and sexually assaulted. The reason we don’t believe him is because of his history here.
But please. Don’t let logic and rationality get in the way of a good ol’ fashioned ignorant rant.
If we’re lucky.
UnknownEric:
Whack-A-Troll
It’s like wack-a-mole, troll edition.
What the fuck kind of reception did you expect, assface?
That’s nice, darling.
Wash your socks dude. They reek.
thebellicose:
Thanks, Dudebro. I haven’t laughed so hard in days. “Mouth breath monkeys” is going to become one of my new tag lines. It’s going in my kit labeled, “How to sound like an ignorant fuck in five easy steps.”
Wow, another brain-dead idiot.
Also, nightshadequeen:
Jynx. I think there’s something about you owing me a soda, as well.
Cogent.
Here is some news for you, assface. Some of the women here already have men that they have been in long term relationships with. And some of the women here are not looking to be with a man.
So sad that your attempt at a putdown was so off the target.
Because only conventionally attractive people are raped, yanno.
thebellicose:
Oh, noes! I’m so scared! Script-kiddies frighten me. Almost as much as spiders.
nigel
Cream soda okay?
bellicose
You do know who owns 18.*.*.* right?
thebellicose:
Also, if you had two neurons to rub together, you’d realize this place is a safe one for victims of sexual violence. It has a long history of providing support for actual victims. Since you didn’t bother going back to actually educate yourself about JJ, I’m assuming you’re just a willfully ignorant asshat.
Yeah… wasn’t 78.228.41.61 on that one Law and Order where it ended up being the son who did it?
You are full of shit. Screen cap away. The only people who are going to think that we are treating rape victims badly are stupid and vicious ideologues like you.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA
I shall give myself an espresso treat for taking the time to reply to such miserable lumpen as JJ and friends.
Yeah, script kiddies.
lolz.
I hope you figure out what dynamic IP addresses are :D
thebellicose:
No. He didn’t.
He said yesterday he was going to claim that. And today he did. That’s called trolling. He did so in a way that was blatant, obvious, and completely in-character. He made the claim to taunt a regular here, one who admitted to being sexually-assaulted.
So, why are you a sexist victim-blamer?
Also, what the fuck, Dudebro? Do you always ignore what people actually say? You’d rather be an ignorant reactionary than someone who really attempts to understand what they are reacting against?
And yes. You’re just a script kiddy. However old you are, your actions speak a helluva lot louder than your words.
JayJay was not assaulted. Yesterday, bragged about fucking women that he plied with alcohol. Today, he claimed to be a “victim” and mocked those who called him on it.
Just because you are blinkered enough and stupid enough to try to defend him does not mean that there is hypocrisy. You are just here to troll, chumbucket.
Also, in case you were wondering, I’m self-employed.
nightshadequeen:
Yeah. I was kind of disappointed that I didn’t see my IP on the list.
Me too, that was my first thought. We’d better give ourselves some stern talkings-to, hm? Maybe over lunch margaritas?
thebellicose, if you actually knew half as much as you think you do, you’d know that IP addresses mean exactly fuck all when it comes to tracking people down without being a member of a police force. Even then, some ISPs wouldn’t help you out without a court order, and with the IP addresses you’ve listed ranging from Maryland and Florida through Panama, Mexico, France and India, you’d have a job getting them all – and, considering you’ve already mentioned Tor, and have suggested you’re using it yourself, you should know there’s no guarantee that’s actually people’s true IP, or that their IP is not a dynamic one.
Oh, and, as for people ‘keeping their Facebook private’, go on, let’s see how much information you can get from my Facebook.
Yeah, I skimmed the list, saw an 18*, and thought he might have somehow gotten mine, and then realized that….er, nope.
And…um, script kiddie – my IP address is pretty much the only one you can get. Want to know why?
I’m probably the only person here directly connected to the internet.
Portia;
Now, that’s the best business proposal I’ve had all week. I deserve a stern talking-to.
“Me, could you please stop feeding the trolls? All it gets you is more grief from more trolls.”
“Well, Me, you’ve got a good point. But I can’t help the angry over-reaction of people who are too ignorant and too fucking lazy to educate themselves.”
“Me, that’s very true. However, I still feel it’s my duty to ask you to refrain from feeding the trolls. Especially on business time. What you do in your own time is your own business.”
“That’s very pragmatic, Me.”
“Now, Me, it’s time to get back to work. Another margarita?”
Better write yourselves up. And put it directly in your permanent record.
And by permanent record, I mean trashcan.
“Portia, you should really work on the work in front of you, instead of dallying away on whack-a-troll.”
“I know, Portia, but someone’s got to do it. Besides, probate work is boring. If you assigned me more interesting projects maybe I wouldn’t get distracted so much.”
“Fair enough, Portia. Have at it. Don’t forget the lime.”
Why, that’s my shredder’s name. The trashcan can be called “Disciplinary File.”
Dammit, I hate it when people group me.
Seriously, do you think we’re spectacularly unintelligent? We know you’re trolling. Go home to 4chan.
thebellicose:
Sorry, I believe I missed that video. Which comment number is that?
No, it’s not OK to grope someone who cannot give consent. That’s the entire point of what JJ was pissed at us about: we claimed him getting women drunk to have sex with them is essentially rape, as they aren’t in a condition to give informed consent.
This is true whether it’s a man or a woman.
For the record: It is sexual assault if you grope someone who is unconscious, no matter what sex they are. It is rape if you penetrate them without consent. Period.
Our reaction to JJ was because he was taunting people of sexual assault and rape. It’s the exact opposite of what you seem to think.
Now would you please take a screenshot of comment #1651?
That should read: “Taunting people who were victims of sexual assault.”
@nigelTheBold, I wouldn’t bother. It’s possible I’m wrong about this, but I think it’s a fairly safe bet that ‘thebellicose’ is simply a sock of John Jackson, who might even think he’s making a point, when really he isn’t. He’s just exposing himself as being an even bigger arsehole than he’s already made himself out to be as ‘John Jackson’.
Sorry to inform you of this, chumbucket, but I have never been to the b thread of reddit. Also, I have never mocked nor blamed a victim of sexual assault because they were assaulted, what ever the gender of the victim.
Also, you have not been logical at all.
You just have a fucking axe to grind.
Now, just stop and go away. You are not doing yourself any favors.
thebellicose:
What? Where the fuck did you read that? I believe I was completely and unequivocally clear when I said that groping anyone without consent is sexual assault.
And your reading comprehension skills are non-existent. Where the fuck in this thread has anyone said you should be able to grope someone you don’t like? The closest thing I can find is you, at #1620.
Gee, why are we infested with toddlers throwing temper tantrums? Boring trolls.
No it’s not. I just went to both places for shits and giggles. Nothing. Nada.
Your move, troll.
What’s the “b” thread? And why should I know what it is?
I thought you were done here.
zmidponk:
I know. I rather suspected that from the outset — the timing was too perfect, the poor grammar and poor spelling was in-line with JJ, and his complete uselessness at actually tracking down IP addresses was about right for someone as generally incompetent as JJ.
For me, it’s like Poe’s law: until you can prove it’s a sockpuppet, it’s best to treat them as sincere. Not so much for the troll, but for the folks the troll brought over to watch the show.
Chumbucket.
JayJay!
Did!
Not!
Get!
Groped!
He was trying to mock the people here.
Just like you are.
b/ and reddit? Sorry, I stay out of internet shitholes, so I wouldn’t know about the latest goings-on there.
I agree with Nigel. I suspect that this is JJ, but it very well could be a random idiot. Or some idiotic dudebro that JJ knows.
Doesn’t matter, still a worthless troll no matter what..
@thebellicose, I find the claim EXTREMELY difficult to accept, principally because
youJohn Jackson claimed that is exactly what was going to happen well before it allegedly did, not to mention thatyourhis first thought after discovering this ‘rape’ was ‘better post this on reddit and 4chan’. However, in order to make things so clear, even someone with the limited reading comprehension you obviously have would understand this:If this is a genuine incident of sexual assault, the people committing it are absolute scum. This goes whether they are male or female.
If, however, this is a lie, the person lying is even worse, as lies like this only serve to diminish and undermine every genuine claim of sexual assault.
thebellicose:
If the tape is genuine, I would implore JJ to take it to the authorities. What we think of him here does not matter — what matters is he press charges, and get the scum that did it to him sent to prison.
The last thing in the world he should care about is our acceptance of the event. So I hope he does get justice, the only kind that matters.
Yawn, can’t believe anything these dudebros say. Nothing but lies, bullshit, and attitude. Hope somebody is taking down the theats and sending it to the NSA/FBI.
JJ:
If you are the victim, go to the police. Stop wasting your time on a senseless vendetta — it’s not going to ease the suffering. All it’ll do is make you bitter. It’s up to you, the victim, to seek justice.
A conviction won’t stop the pain, but it might help.
Look at this. MRA Troll Performance Art.
Yawn, the juvenile and inane lies continue from the dudebros….
Also, JJ:
If you care more about those of us who didn’t believe you than your attacker, your priorities a little bit wonky.
I’m actually a little conflicted about the whole thing. Yeah, JJ broadcast his intent to do this exact thing, but isn’t part of the social problem the fact that we don’t believe the victim?
Wow, it’s another SEO triumph! #sockfail
Funny, some alpha male was bragging about getting around his ban.
Yeah, I had a feeling when I stepped away from the internet that when I got back JayJay and/or his (probably paid) buddies would be trying to spin his trolling into some sort of *gasp* controversy.
So sad when your worst thought about people are so solidly confirmed.
More like omega male. MRA trolls are definitely bottom of the pile material.
It’s really easy to get around bans here because this is an open forum: users are assumed to be responsible, intelligent adults until proven otherwise. There is no barrier to new users signing in.
Therefore it’s really pathetic when a troll brags about poor security and getting around bans. The system is designed to allow idiots to get on fairly easily.
The slightly harder part is maintaining that status. You fail.
Victims don’t usually announce they are going to get drunk and set up a sexual assault, tape the sexual assault themselves, publish the sexual assault on reddit and 4chan, then come into the thread in which they announced their planned sexual assault set up.
This is part of the problem as it mocks those who have been sexually assault. It is a mockery of human decency.
Now it is possible that it happened. If it did happen, I am sorry that it happened, and instead of posting here, he needs to contact the police. And maybe consider getting some counseling.
But I strongly doubt it happened in this case. False accusations are odious, the create the rape culture we live in. His minimization of this to nothing more than a rhetorical point on which he is clumsily attempting to flip the script on us is sad. And it is a deflection. If he really believes he was sexually assaulted while drunk, one would expect to see a recanting of his entire life style of getting women drunk for sex.
He’s here to anger and trigger people. He’s already done harm. Killfile if you got it, and let’s just make sure a monitor knows when asshole posts.
Oh, cute. You know that email address the bellicose troll was passing around? It wasn’t actually the email address he used to log in. Who knows who he was spamming?
PZ:
And don’t think we don’t appreciate it!
@ Chris
Ha! But remember he might fail at that, but he’s winning at life.
Given a very specific and narrow definition of winning that only applies to him.
Has anyone sent an alert yet? Or do you all want to play with little bellicose John some more?
Puts me in mind of this story via Bruce Schneider somehow:
glodson:
Yeah. That’s the part that really has me conflicted. My first instinct when reading JJ’s story was to give it provisional acceptance; but happening right on the heels of a regular telling their story, it seemed more like mockery, and that pissed me right the fuck off.
I firmly believe JJ’s story was false. He paid some Dudebro to help him make the tape, assuming there is one. I’m pretty damned certain of that. His behavior is that of a dudebro trying really hard to feel superior to folks who said bad things about him, and not the behavior of a victim.
But isn’t that what folks say who are denying the victim’s story? (I get that we have reason for that denial, not the least of which is the announcement of his intent yesterday.)
It’s more just the general existential feeling that I’ve somehow contributed to the problem of believing the victim. Hell, we saw that in this very thread, where Markku was trying to portray Adria Richards as a liar, rather than accept her account.
I’ll probably get over it. It’s just kinda bugging me right now.
Um, Caine…
Caine obviously alerted PZ in an email with a thiotimoline attachment.
Excellent obscure Asimov reference! My adoration for you just keeps growing.
Ah, never mind.
Usually it is in the form of hyperskepticism. And usually it is when a person has reported the crime, or is being open about an experience. I am apt to listen, and take the claim at face value. I know the emotional toll it takes to even admit to being a victim of such a crime, and even the social stigma attached.
But not everyone makes these claims are being truthful. Context is always important. Evidence is always important. Motivation for admission is important. In this case, we have ample reasons to reject the claim.
You bring up Marrku in the other thread. He ignored evidence that she was correct. He ignored the social context in which the remarks were made. He ignored the fact that she had no motivation to lie, the PyCon had no motivation to agree with her, and the two guys had no motivation to agree with her account unless it happened.
Which is what sickens me about JJ. I know he hurt another user by triggering the user. And he kept going. He used threats with a sockpuppet. He knows what he is doing. Don’t feel bad for having the doubts. He even minimized what happened in Steubenville to prop up his stance.
Chris:
…Yes. Yes, I did.
glodson:
Thanks. That’s what I know, intellectually — but working it out emotionally is hard. The validation helps.
Don’t worry about it, I had to work it out for myself as I was reading his posts.
I didn’t want to validate them with a response, because they were not worthy of it. But I also didn’t want to just dismiss them out of hand, because it could be true. However infinitesimally small of a chance that might be.
It is one thing to have reasonable questions. It is another to dismiss evidence to maintain a forgone conclusion.
Yeah, JayJay spent all of yesterday making damn sure than no one would believe him today, just so he could accuse feminazis of hating men or something. It’s all very sinister-mastermind-cum-stupid-sauce.
The screenshot from Chris is just golden – pretty solid proof of the entire thing being a lie.
Thanks for point that out, carlie. I had breezed past it. Truly a triumph of something-or-other.
myeck waters:
I believe JJ was so disgusted with his own behavior, he subconsciously wanted to betray himself. While his bruised ego and wounded pride insisted he follow through on what amounts to a hurtful rampage of faux-outrage, he really knew he was doing wrong, and wanted to sabotage himself. It’s a triumph of the good in a person over the bad in a person.
…
Oh, who am I kidding? I think JJ is a puffed-up piece of trash, betrayed not by a smidgen of self-awareness, but by his own total incompetence. If it’s a triumph, it’s one of incompetence over malignancy.
On the bright side, at least the probability of him actually hosting non-safe* parties are basically nil.
Granted, I don’t know of a school that would be okay with two alcohol-related incidents happening within a short amount of time at one place.
*Read: Without a sober, CPR-trained person and also without a strong consent culture
beautiful
ooooh, I’m looking forward to seeing script kiddies trying to get me “fired” by my “employer” :-D
…I’m looking forward to seeing this script kiddy try to figure out who I am from my (dynamic) IP address :D
Jadehawk:
Yes, so am I. Never know, I might have a right bad day and decide to fire myself.
nigelTheBold:
This right here is why I think anyone who does lie about getting sexually assaulted or raped is at least on a level, and possibly actually worse than a person who actually commits a sexual assault or rape – because of the simple fact that people like that exist, this means anyone who is genuinely raped or sexually assaulted can find themselves being accused of being one of them, and, in order to prove they’re not, more or less has to be subjected to some very personal and intimate examinations and forced to relive the attack, possibly multiple times. It’s a fucking disgrace that this is necessary, but it is, thanks to them.
Zmidponk:
No. No, they are not. Please, don’t even go there. Many people taking part in this thread have been raped. I am one of them. Lesson #1: people who are raped are always doubted, questioned and accused of lying for a variety of reasons, most of them having to do with systemic, toxic sexism. To say that it’s based in false accusations or the sort of shit little John attempted is utterly wrong and harmful. Thank you.
Caine:
I would have thought that even the most hyperskeptical, sexist piece of shit would have a problem claiming someone is lying about being raped if it simply doesn’t happen that people lie about that, but you are in the extremely unfortunate position of having more direct experience of this than me, so I’ll take your word for it.
Zmidponk, a little reading for you:
http://tumblr.safercampus.org/post/17324649859/why-i-will-always-side-with-rape-accusers-before
http://omgrey.wordpress.com/2012/10/24/false-accusations/
The only thing a man has to do to get away with rape at a 97% success rate in the United States is to rape. Even if there is video. Even if there is DNA evidence. Even if she is unable to move or speak because of a disability. Even if there are witnesses. 97 out of every 100 rapists walk free. free. free. free. Continuing to destroy more lives.
What they do is what works. They rape their drunk acquaintances because it works. They rape their drunk acquaintances because we let them.
The odds of false accusations are tiny, compared with the damage done by disbelieving accusations in a public comment thread, let alone pretty much the whole damn internet. When you start talking about those who might make false accusations being worse than rapists, you are not only handing the MRAs a cookie for one of their favourite arguments, you are actively shoring up rape culture.
What is this some kind of team play?
First the backstory: “I’m a rich little dudebro gonna get my grope on”
Then the set up, ” check it out I got groped, check out the video on 4chan”
Finally they strike! “ZOMG YOUR ALL HYPOCRITES COZ U DON’T BELIEVE ME!”
Now it’s on to the real message, “Lying about being raped is worse than raping”
Economic abuse/terrorism is just another one of those things we must tolerate for the sake of freeze peach, I guess.
Larry Poppins:
Don’t conflate them. JJ was out to fuck with us because we told him getting girls drunk to have sex is rape. zmidponk is pissed because JJ is providing cover to those who wish to deny the victim’s story. zmidponk might be over-reacting, but it’s not part of what JJ was doing.
It’s not fair to smear zmidponk with JJ’s excrement whe zmidponk was just trying to do the right thing. zp seems to be acting in good faith; JJ was not.
Enough people know and loathe JJ that, if any picture or piece of information that he has posted is real, they are really going to enjoy pointing his dad to this thread.
It doesn’t matter what he has on his fake facebook page – that’s not how they’re going to get him.
Nigel:
I agree, because Zmidponk didn’t seem to know much about this issue. Most people don’t, and they responded well, so I have no issue with them at all.
Exactly. Many of us started off ignorant (meaning, without knowledge) like that. Every post from zmidponk has seemed sincere, if a bit too much. Hell, I was like that just a few short years ago. I can’t say I’m a great person, but I can say I’m a helluva lot better person than I was — and it’s thanks to people who take the time to explain this shit, and provide backing studies/arguments/testimonies.
I’m more than willing to give zmidponk as much time and rope as necessary. Trying to tie xem up in the same knot with JJ is not just troublesome, it’s downright unjust.
And I’m glad you’re there to point out the issues, Caine. I wanted to, but didn’t know how. Especially after how this denial of JJ has made me feel.
Nigel:
Thank you. I don’t think you’re alone in feeling unsettled. It’s one thing to know someone was deliberately attempting to fuck with our heads (and a *huge* thank you to Chris for providing the comfort of evidence), but it does not feel right to take any accusation of sexual assault or rape and say “lies”. It feels very wrong indeed, and I’m fairly sure little John was banking on that.
Caine:
That is quite astonishing. I knew that the system was far from perfect when it came to rapes, but that figure of 97% is utterly mindblowing. I do now see I overstated the case – false accusations of rape do have a negative effect, mostly due to the undermining effect it has on genuine claims, but those links do make it clear that is dwarfed by rape claims more or less being dismissed if the victim fails to fit into a very narrow set of criteria (quoted from the 2nd link):
Zmidponk:
Exactly! I can’t emphasize that enough, either. One of the more devastating things about my rape is that I fell into that incredibly narrow criteria – the person who got me was a serial rapist and a serial murderer. So, while I wasn’t doubted or accused of lying (raped multiple times, beaten severely, stabbed and strangled, oh, and whacked on the back of the head), I was still subjected to very damaging, rotten remarks, such as the ADA prosecuting the case saying to me “what were you thinking, being out after dark in a dress?!” I was 16, I had been to a gathering of friends.
Anyway, what’s devastating is the overwhelming amount of people I came in contact with when I was an advocate for victims, who had experienced the most common types of rape, which are 1) incest, 2) date rape, 3) acquaintance rape, and 4) marital/partner rape. In every single case, a laser light is placed on the victim, terrible things are said and there’s always a presumption of lying, or dismissal on a xe said/xe said basis. It’s mind-numbingly terrifying what a rape victim goes through if they decide to report (which is why a majority don’t), but even that’s not the worst of it. A high percentage of rape victims are also doubted and questioned by family members and friends, and victim-blaming also comes from those sources.
May I please tell you thank you? Thank you very much for listening, and thank you even more for checking out those links. Now you understand much more, and you’ll be able to help others to do the same. Thank you.
zmidponk:
Welcome to the eye-opening journey I like to call, “I used to think what?”
It’s a dark and perilous road ahead of you. It’s filled with traps, tripwires, tiger-holes covered in palm fronds, and poo-filled bags on fire on your front porch. (That last is really just JJ.) But it’s the only road that can lead you out of the hell-hole of socially-engineered white-upper-class-male dominance. (Hi, JJ.) Yeah, it’s filled with assholes. (Hello again, JJ.) It’s also filled with wonder and humility.
Mostly, though, it’s full of enlightenment. It’s taken me a couple of decades to get here, and as you can see, I’m not entirely settled into the digs. I tried writing down some advice, but the only thing I could come up with is, “Don’t make assumptions.” That’s good advice in general, but here, it’s especially important, because your comments affect other people. In most cases, making the wrong assumptions affect just you. Here, though, those assumptions can lead you to say something that brings hurt to other people. In the cases where it matters, people who have been through a helluva lot more than you can imagine.
That’s why I didn’t feel empowered to say anything when you first made this comparison. And after, the only thing I feel qualified to say is, “Listen to Caine.”
Strangely, the only good advice I can give you is from one non-victim to another. And that really comes down to: “Don’t speak for the folks who have been through this. Let them speak for themselves. Just be ready to back them up in a moment’s notice.”
Now I’ll shut up, bein’ drunk and all.
Nigel:
That’s good advice, thank you.
Also, a thank you to the friend who made me aware of the material at those links. ♥
Also, zmidponk:
This is not a criticism. I’d just like to inform you that many folks have what amounts to post-traumatic stress disorder. Basically, this means they are reminded of their past trauma (“triggered”) by something that is said, by a noise (for example, my FIL still dives under the table when a truck backfires outside the window*, from Vietnam), or even a smell.
Your final quote in #1707 might trigger someone. It’s a courtesy to give fair warning before quoting something like that, something that might remind someone of the trauma they’ve been through. It’s a “trigger warning.”
Again: not a criticism. Just something you might not be aware of, and something you might like to know for the future.
* Which has only happened once in my experience, but was scary as fuck.
I need to apologize. I wrote this:
in response to John Jackson claiming that he was raped. I was wrong. I spent much of last night lying awake realizing what I had done and what I should have done. I should have written something like this:
I apologize to John Jackson and to those who have misplaced their trust in me.
My knee-jerk reaction was, ‘I don’t like this asshole, therefore he is lying about being raped.’ He very well may be lying. But that isn’t the point. I didn’t like him and automatically assumed he was lying.
The one time that I told someone what was happening to me, I was told that I could ruin my abuser’s life, would bankrupt his family, and that I was lying. And I never told anyone again until I did so pseudonomously here.
Despite the claims of John Jackson, I did not blame the victim. I did, however, reflexively shout ‘bitchez lie!‘. This was wrong and apologize to all here.
Ogvorbis, JJ spent a whole day making sure we wouldn’t believe him. Although society’s habit of accusing sexual assault victims is horrible, JJ was deliberately setting up a situation in which there really was no “good” response.
On your worst day, your behaviour here is better than JJ’s.
myeck:
I was still in the wrong and I apologize to all of you. Doubting someone who says they are raped directly contributes to rape culture. I engaged in reflexive rape apology and that is wrong. No matter how reprehensible JJ’s behaviour here was, that is wrong.
I think you fail to acknowledge the reality that Jay-Jay was an utter liar and bullshitter for effect, and everything he said, including possibly being raped (especially after being accused of being a rapist), should be taken with a grain of salt the size of Montana. I’ll take most folks words as is until further notice. Not those who deliberately lie and bullshit for effect. Then, they are wrong until they evidence themselves right. Which is where Jay-Jay should be.
Nerd:
I am aware of that. I still stand by my admission of a mistake.
UnknownEric @ #1644,
All I could picture is someone turning a border collie loose to round up all the drunk party goers, then herding them toward their cabs.
It actually sounds like a very good idea.
This reminds me of the time my neighbors let their (friendly, but large) boxer out to scare away some drunken frat boys who were for some inexplicable reason hanging out in the middle of our street.
@Ogvorbis
In response to accusations that his tactic of getting girls drunk and shagging them on a pool table was rape, JJ posted this:
In light of the fact he then came back and made exactly that claim I think it’s perfectly reasonable to disbelieve him.
Thumper1990:
I agree that, in light of his previous comments it is perfectly reasonable to disagree. I have been kicking myself because I did not make that connection when I called bullshit. I was using the ‘I don’t like him so I think he is lying,’ which is, to me, not acceptable.
Ah, I see you context. I used “he is nothing but a liar and bullshitter, therefore all claims he makes are considered lies and bullshit until third party conformation is available”. Very ad hominem, but it really does apply to chronic fabricators.
Ogvorbis wrote:
That right there is what makes you a much better person that JJ. Holding yourself to a higher standard. You were right in your dismissal of his claim, and you were right to be angry. But you know you acted on the wrong impulse. That willingness to look at yourself is the hallmark of a good person.
Also, maybe part of the reason you had such an extreme dislike of him was his behavior from the previous day. You didn’t just dislike him randomly. The reasons you dislike him are likely the same reasons what many of us flatly rejected his claim.
That idiotic attempt to pull a tu quoque style argument was sickening.
Brother Obvorbis
When I started work at my current company (a loooong time ago) the CEO had a plaque on his desk with a latin phrase. It wasn’t until the day he retired that I found out what it said, “don’t let the bastards get you down.” I’ve always appreciated that sentiment. JJ’s douchebaggery is the cause of this, your reaction to it is understandable. In the time I’ve been reading this blog you’ve always been one of the most compassionate commenters, don’t beat yourself up too much. You’re worth ten of that arsehole any day of the week.
Never mind.
I still feel that I was wrong.
Apparently I need to take a break.
Sorry for stirring the shit.
Ogvorbis,
You’ve given me something to consider.
I appreciate your intent and tend to agree that we should er on the side of empathy. I also think it is obvious that this individual is a lying liar who thinks rape is a joke. This was (imo) a twisted attempt to both trigger people here and play “Gotcha!”. I think he came here to entertain himself by making light of sexual assault. He did not really come here for help. He came here to harm. I cannot bring myself to trust anything JJ posted. Still, not everyone seeing the response he received is going to read this whole thread and even if they do, it may effect them negatively. Maybe splash damage should be considered.
At some time in his life he may have been sexually assaulted. If that is the case, I sincerely hope he seeks help and support and finds it.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to discuss what the correct response to anyone (regardless of whether or not that person is clearly trolling) who comes here looking for a safe place to talk about being the victim of rape or sexual abuse. We already have repetitive discussions with trolls for the benefit of lurkers. Should we treat all claims of rape as true in these threads? Should we worry about triggering an actual victim by rejecting the claims of a (assumed) phony one? I think so.
Which is more important; giving support to those who truly need it or not giving support to those who do not?
Maybe we should take that discussion to the T-dome?
..or it can stay here. I think this thread left the rails ages ago.
What’s worse, falling for a fake story and looking like a fool or disbelieving someone and adding to their pain? I’ve been a fool before, one more time won’t hurt me.
That’s a great way to put it. It is much better to err on the side of believing the claim rather than to dismiss it out of hand. Of course, this is in a vacuum. The context in which the claim is made changes the dynamic.
Absolutely, JJ’s effort stood out like dog’s balls and it was disgusting. As a general rule though, I lose nothing by believing someone’s story, they have the potential to lose a lot
That’d should’ve read as: by disbelieving they have the potential to lose a lot
CC @ 1511:
This made it totally worth slogging through 1500-odd comments worth of troll-fencing!
Which I’m still working on, so back to it…
Wow.
I am slowly making my way through these two (very long) Adria threads (have had a couple concussions and sometimes reading comprehension is slow).
Every time I think I have been enlightened I read some more (not just here…but here is very good)…and learn something new, or self identify a new area where I need to bring my informed opinion into the 21century. It is a very good and awesome feeling – like the first time I learned about evolution and really truly grasped its significance. Lightbulb moments (I am NOT quoting Oprah) are truly thought orgasms.
For some reason too this thread triggered memories about my sexual molestation as a child….I have no idea why, since the thread really had little to do with that. I’ve never really been triggered before, even on other threads that I have particpated in on the topic of rape. Weird. It’s not a bad thing though – it’s not like bad shit doesn’t happen to everyone. I think it has to do with the ‘bullying’ aspect of this whole topic (my molestor was a bully). It’s so easy for small minded people to bully others anonymously now…as a 43 year old I remember when we didn’t even have email at work – let alone twitter. We still managed to get stuff done – imagine that.
Anyways, as a lurker 99 percent of the time I’d just like to throw my comment out there (again) that good work is done here. People read, and learn and sometimes become better.
Back to the lurk.
AP