This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.
Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.
Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread
I like turtles.
Turtles?
PZ
The link at the bottom of the old Thread is borked.
That’s what I meant. You don’t think like a mature person. More like an adolescent….
Janine #2
You are cruel!
Serious inquiry: “Libertarian!” seems to be almost as nefarious of a descriptor as “Creationist” around here. Why such disdain for those folks?
Ahhh true that, I did not refresh before commenting.
Is intelligence a static thing?
I can be cruel.
I don’t know why.
The economic theory is “I’ve got mine, fuck you”, which must be accepted like the babble. Swallowed and regurgitated without being able to show it does work with historical economics. And the morally bankrupt “liberties”, that allow for de facto racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry. Care to defend such bullshit with real evidence, and not slogans?
Does douglas1102 pass the IQ test?
Can douglas1102 deduce how to click the “NEW THREAD” link?
@ Ogvorbis 770
Yes there’s many forms of persuasion. I’m guessing you’re “anything goes” as far as attacking intelligence, and that seems to be the trend. Maybe I just shouldn’t give a damn about that.
Really I think humor is very effective and that can also be a form of attacking intelligence and making someone feel stupid. But it’s hard to keep up all the time and hard with a bad audience which is very likely in these situations.
I think humor coupled with other forms of persuasion is usually the most effective over-all. Tyson and Randi seem to have a more humorous approach than say Dawkins and I think that makes them more persuasive (in a lot of ways). Keeping your cool is also usually necessary for humor and losing your temper doesn’t usually help you think better although in certain circumstances it could still be persuasive.
So I think the best over-all approach would be to try and be humorous, self-depreciating humor is prolly best. People aren’t usually open to people making them feel stupid and I think this is why a lot of atheists aren’t too great at converting Xians and such. However, bullies to seem to respond when you make them feel stupid so self-depreciating humor might not always be best for them.
Thoughts?
Don’t tell him.
@6, schweinhundt:
Short answer (because I have a feeling you’ll get a longer one from someone else): the general feeling, I think, is that both creationists and libertarians subscribe to a philosophy/ideology that’s (a) rooted in wishful thinking (b) based on a very dodgy work of fiction and (c) in stark contradiction to the available observable evidence. Both camps are also prone to reacting to the mildest criticism with accusations of conspiracy, censorship and stifling free speech.
Bear in mind that’s a generalisation (before anyone leaps down my throat); most libertarians I know and have personally interacted with are much more accepting of reality and much moderate in their views than practically all the creationists that have ever crossed my path.
Too late.
@ Rev 7
“Is intelligence a static thing?”
As far as I know most psychologists say “yes” but there isn’t a consensus (seems there never is regarding intelligence) but I’m not a Psychologist *gasp* so find out yerself.
Janine, there’s never enough time in the ‘dome.
Because we give a damn about other people.
@ chigau
You were worried about me weren’t ya?
Libertarianism is a utopianist ideology. Libertarianism will solve all the worlds problems but only if we reach a certain level of economic purity.
Cruel To Be Kind
douglas1102
No.
@ Chigau
Ah ha, then you knew I would pass the “IQ test”
I’m having e-flashbacks to danielhaven and rajkumar…
save me
You know I can be found sitting home all alone.
douglas1102 #11
Self-depreciating humor is the best way to deal with bullies except when it isn’t. Gotcha. Any other
gobs of shitgems of wisdom you want to drop on us?As I understand it, this is essentially libertarianism in a nutshell:
http://i.imgur.com/k5QmS.gif
Prefab Sprout
Did you even read what I wrote? No able-ist insults (or ablist, or ableist (however you want to phrase it)). If someone is acting and/or writing like an idiot, I will tell them so. Don’t use insults such as crazy, retarded, or the like. That is not anything goes.
Try reading for comprehension.
I was asking you, As in, what do you think.
What the hell, hello cruel world.
OK, I want to say something about Alan Turing.
This came up when a wingnut complained about gays in protest against California’s SB 48 bill.
When I was cruel.
One doesn’t fail an IQ test. One merely gets a number on the ability to take IQ tests. But then, such common knowledge seems to be ignored by a segment of the population, like yourself, who thinks it can be failed.
Cruel Inventions
*cough*
Dougie sez:
‘Scuse me, Cupcake, but where do you get off assuming Athyco is a man? See, all us super-duper meanies here tend to be a little touchy about gender assumptions. If you don’t know whether or not someone is female or male, don’t run with the default sexist assumption of male.
I’m sure all you top YT commenters are seriously above all that sort of thing in this wonderfully post sexist world we all enjoy, but hey, we’re primitive around here, so fucking watch yourself, fuckwit.
I caught a Turtle in the Yarra last night. Cute long necked about the size of a small plate. He was nomming on the chicked I had in my yabby net. I let him go after taking a happy snap. Very cute.
chicken, not chicked.
I like turtles.
I was also unaware that they Yarra was able to support life :D
@Caine
He has already been corrected on that point. I think he even apologized for it, but I’m scared to go back to that thread to check.
@ Rev 29
Why on earth would you want to my opinion?
Oh well, in my unqualified opinion I would say it’s static.
Yarra has lots of life, at least from Heidelberg out. Has an introduced population of Murray Cod and the rare Macquarie Perch.
Dougie is wrong again. Time to keep his mouth shut to avoid foot in mouth disease. Which an easy Google search turned up.
Which is why your OPINION is to laugh at….
schweinhundt #6
The website What’s Wrong With Libertarianism might give you an answer to your question.
They waste your time
They’re wasting mine
@ Caine 35
Yes that’s been pointed out to me, and I don’t decide anything when I refer to an anonymous person as “he” I suppose that might not be proper but that’s what I do. If you want to give me shit for it then that’s fine with me in fact I welcome it.
@ Nerd 33
“One doesn’t fail an IQ test.”
Unless the criteria for the test is find new thread=pass can’t find new thread=fail
Do you understand now?
LykeX:
Ah, thank you. I missed that. Given Dougie’s particular density, perhaps another tap will help the point to be firmly lodged in that skull.
Geez I don’t know. Maybe because you are the one bringing up the topic of intelligence and how people commend or decry the level of it.
I know, crazy thought huh.
So anyway, I’m not talking about Charlie Gordon type of intelligence change, but you don’t think that leaning and practice and “exercising” your intelligence might enable some increase?
Can anyone tell what my new avatar is?
some sort of tiger fish thing?
Janine:
Bambiraptor?
It’s not that it’s “improper”, in some kind of rarefied Victorian drawing room sense. It’s that it’s presumptuous. People don’t like it when others presume their personal characteristics. It’s a minor infraction but very easily avoided – that is, if you care about putting others offside before you even get to know each other.
I’m always suspicious of anyone who welcomes “shit” for not doing something very easy and changing a minor behaviour that they nonetheless know is negative and annoys people. I’ve known people like that: their attitude to minor but repetitive behaviour that put people off or irritated the shit out of everyone was “This is how I am and fuck you if you don’t like it.” Of course, these people were people at my high school, so you can forgive the needlessly defiant adolescent bullshit to an extent. But hey, for all anyone here knows, you are yourself fourteen years old and going through a “fuck you” phase, in which case most here would be inclined to give you some latitude.
My Pal Foot-Foot
Where is Foot-Foot?
Douglas:
You do love taking refuge in the weakest excuses for an argument, don’t you? I did not say “hey, you consciously decided to assume Athyco was a man.”
Now what you’re doing is excusing your lack of awareness by the old “hey, it’s what I do” garbage. That will not fly here, at all. If you are male, Douglas, you’re walking about with a whole lot of privilege. If you’re white, Douglas, you just got more privilege added to the heap. No – it’s not the sort of privilege you earn and you get it whether you wanted it or not, because that’s how our sexist society and culture works. The trick is to be aware of that privilege, and how it shapes your attitudes and thought processes.
You went with the default he because you haven’t yet examined your privilege or your unconscious sexism. And before you scream in outrage, we are all sexist. Can’t help it, we’re swimming in it. Again, the trick is to be aware. By saying “hey, it’s what I do”, you’re saying you’re perfectly fine with being a sexist, it’s really not a big deal, and that you won’t work to change such assumptions in yourself.
I really doubt this will get anywhere, but why don’t you try doing some reading (helpfully provided below) and try to stretch that…intellect of yours, eh?
The Male Privilege Checklist
Excellent explanation of privilege
@ Nerd 43
You’re link does not make those claims, it’s more about “success and IQ” than “raising your IQ” and I don’t consider CBS news to be a reliable source.
Anyone claiming to be able to raise your IQ should treated with extreme skepticism and the reasons should be obvious. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/finding-the-next-einstein/201205/why-are-we-so-obsessed-improving-iq
If there’s any peer reviewed literature claiming that IQ can be raised (fairly significantly and reliably) I’d very much like to see it.
Raising your IQ is mostly wishful thinking and quacks looking to make money.
Hi, doug. You are mistaken. For much of the 20th century (and probably before that) this was the assumption, but as we’ve learned more about how the brain works, we can see that intelligence can be fluid, or dynamic. There are also many types of intelligence. For example, a person can do well on an IQ test, but has no inclination to re-evaluate preconceived ideas (critical thinking), or that person maybe is not especially empathetic (emotional intelligence). Gardner’s put forth his theory of multiple intelligences in the early 1980’s, and it has been getting quite a bit of traction since then. Basically, it’s not black and white. The field of intelligence study is wide open. Here is a cool website you might want to look at. The print is pretty small on my monitor but the information is good.
Gardner*, that is.
Sorry, douglas. My bad. Full of typos today :P
If you think psychology today is considered peer reviewed you are full of shit. POP psych bullhshit. Still not convincing me of anything other than you lie a bullshit to yourself, then to us. That requires you to prove yourself right….
No, but then your understanding of the basics is lacking, not mine. Really, try to keep up, you aren’t as smart as you pretend to be, and everybody know that from your first posts. Old history by now, except to you.
Douglas:
This is an anecdote and, as I am sure you are aware, anecdotes do not equal data, but my elementary school tested my IQ five times. The first time, I scored x. The second time, I scored x+5. The third time, I added another 10 points. The fourth time, I added 15 points. The last time, I added another 5. I didn’t get more intelligent, I got better at taking a test that measured a very, very, very narrow segment of intelligence. In five tests, I improved by 35 IQ points. I’m good at taking tests is all that it measured.
@ Caine 55
I’m very open to bettering myself especially in a progressive way and I love the idea of someone picking on me about it. So thanks for that Caine. =)
Yes, I’ve read your links before.
Fyi, I am male and I am white and I am privileged but I grew up with a tiny single parent income and that meant often living in a tent heated by kerosene even in Canadian winter, no shower, little food and everything else that goes with that, so although I’m male privilege I’m hardly the best example.
People assume a lot of things.
@ Ogorbis
That could also mean a flaw with the person performing the test and many other factors, that your IQ changed is not the only thing. There’s prolly lists of things that can change it.
I’ve never seen anything convincing that your IQ can be raised, perhaps by a little but certainly not reliably.
Isn’t there a Psychologist on this blog somewhere that could give a better opinion?
The problem is the test taker and not the test. Gotcha.
IQ tests are bloody worthless, this has been shown time and time and time and time again. While neoplasticity is higher when younger, we certainly don’t lose the potential to grown and learn throughout our lifetimes and that includes learning to use your intelligence.
Intellect is a lot like the saying about a different bodily organ – it isn’t the size that counts, it’s what you do with it.
@ Nerd
“If you think psychology today is considered peer reviewed you are full of shit. POP psych bullhshit”
Obviously it’s not peer reviewed and I mostly agree with that, but I’d still say it’s better than CBS
I wouldn’t take anyone very seriously other than a Psychologist.
Douglas:
Yes, they do assume a lot of things. For instance, when someone sees a white male, they assume all sorts of things about him and give him privileges as a result. Even if their assumptions about his background or capabilities or character is wrong. This is one of the ways that privilege works.
@ Caine 66
I wouldn’t say they’re “worthless” but they hardly define your destiny. Practicing is the only way to get skilled. IQ is not a substitute, you could argue that it helps but it’s no substitute.
Arthur Jensen is one of the biggest names in “IQ” (and certainly one of the most controversial) and I read that he never even took an IQ test, he simply didn’t care.
@ Janine 65
“The problem is the test taker and not the test. Gotcha.”
I never said that, but I would agree that could be the case, if you don’t care about the test and don’t take it very seriously then you’ll likely score lower.
Oh FFS, you fuckwit! That is not the privilege I’m talking about – why in the fuck did you not click on the links I provided and try to get some information into that ball of snot you call a brain?
I am a female, bisexual, 55 years old, mixed race, who is childfree. I grew up with all sorts of material goodies, but I was also subjected to extreme abuse, from being tossed into institutions when I displeased my mother, to being raped from the ages of 3 to 9 on a regular basis. You want to know what the fuck any of that has to do with my privilege? NOTHING. And yes, I have privilege. We all have fucking privilege, some more than others. WHITE MALES ARE ON THE TOP OF THE PRIVILEGE HEAP.
Instead of continually proving it’s a miracle you can breathe, why not impress our socks right off by following a link, reading, and showing that you can actually comprehend something?
And I wouldn’t take any “authority” seriously. We’ve had a few idjits pretend IQ is meaningful and doesn’t change. But, I’m a skeptic. Trust known and trusted authority, but verify. Which leaves psychologists out.
@ Caine 71
WHITE MALES ARE ON THE TOP OF THE PRIVILEGE HEAP.
I don’t remember denying that and I’m pretty sure I didn’t so there’s no need to shout.
We’re doing it. Thang.
I thang the Chemical Brothers for this particular education.
@ Nerd
We’ve had a few idjits pretend IQ is meaningful and doesn’t change. But, I’m a skeptic. Trust known and trusted authority, but verify. Which leaves psychologists out.
You really seem to have a problem with this.
@ Evilsgood
“Basically, it’s not black and white.”
I certainly agree with that, pretty sure most Psychologists would as well.
@ nerd 60
I mostly posted the psychology today article to show these things should be taken very skeptically.
Yet you disagree with me when I state that ” In five tests, I improved by 35 IQ points. I’m good at taking tests is all that it measured.” Are you deliberately misreading me?
Blockquoting is your friend.
@ Rev 79
I told you that if you had a problem with this then post the copypaste I tried to figure it out and failed =(
Then someone posted it and it worked but I deleted it.
Quit asking me to make clear what I am saying!
@ Ogvorbis 78
Hey now…
I never “disagreed” I gave few examples of other things that could explain that variance. That doesn’t mean I “disagree”, as a matter of fact I give your anecdote more clout than I would most. Kinda made me think actually.
Besides, my opinion doesn’t mean anything in this matter.
Who is Janine Talking to? If it’s me, I dunno what she’s talking about.
Whereas I take everything you say skeptically. You will never be an authority, and everything you say will be checked. If you had only forwarded your argument yesterday it might be different…
Cryptic nonsense by you. I don’t believe anything you say or link to. Simple.
“White Privilege” is PC dog-whistle for group IQ differences.
Oxymoron here, as dog-whistles refer to bigotry.
@ Nerd
And here I though you changed in the last five minutes, thanks for the reminder =)
You told me, without even asking if there was more than one tester, that it could be the person administering the test. You also stated that one’s IQ cannot change. The IQ is the number the fucking test gives you so yes, one’s IQ can change. In case you haven’t noticed, variance is change. I never claimed my actual intelligence changed, but my measured IQ did. Why do you deny what you write when we can ctrl-F and see what you actually wrote?
This is an open thread. We often have multiple different conversations happening here at the same time. It ain’t all about you, Dougie.
How to blockquote
<blockquote>Quoted text in here</blockquote>
Looks like this
‘Dog whistle’ has zero to do with ‘bigotry’. Dog whistle refers to communications which are not meant for unintended audiences. It has to do with dog ears being able to perceive higher frequency sounds than human ears. Kind of like a secret code. In our world, everybody knows there are group IQ differences, we are just not supposed to speak openly about it. Therefore we associate ‘talent’ to the word ‘privilege’. It is a good way to keep your job and still communicate.
I should hope so, since there were a whole slew of psychologists cited in the link I posted. Gardner’s work is probably the most important in the field of intelligence study, but you can decide that for yourself.
But it could mean something, if you took the time to learn more about the subject. I tried to get some of Gardner’s peer reviewed stuff but it’s all behind a wall. I can access most of it because I’m a student, but unfortunately I can’t transfer that access to you. However, Cracking Open the IQ Box is free to all. It’s a response to The Bell Curve, but if you scroll down to the section labeled “Psychology, Biology and Culture,” you’ll find information relevant to our discussion here.
If you’re a student, douglas, I’d recommend “Beyond the IQ: Education and Human Development” from the Harvard Educational Review.
Hopefully you are actually interested in this sort of thing and I haven’t wasted my time.
What world are you talking about?
In this case, it was about douglas1102. But you are right, it is not all about him.
Just how the fuck can neolplum make a thread all about him?
very easily apparently
Could it be that IQ tests were developed by well-educated white men from a specific cultural milieu and measure everyone to the standard of well-educated white men from that specific cultural milieu?
@ComradeBob 86
You have no idea what you’re talking about. White privilege is a completely different concept from group IQ differences, which have anyway been shown to be due to different educational opportunities and poverty, not genetic differences between races. We as a society treat people differently, regardless of their perceived intelligence, based on which group we jam them into. This is not a controversial idea, it’s the way things have always worked.
You know, white supremacists have a slogan, “Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.” It’s almost like they know they hold a privileged position in society, and believe that any attempt to level that playing field is an attack on their race.
@ Ogvorbis
What am I disagreeing with? That IQ can change?
I told you that I didn’t think so, but I also said your anecdote “made me think” and I’m aware lots of Psychologists agree, however they seem to be the minority. (are they?)
I also said my opinion is practically irrelevant and that these things aren’t so black and white.
Practically everything about IQ tests are disputed I doubt very many Psychologists would claim a lot of certainty.
I don’t understand why you value my opinion in this matter, but anyway, I do assume your anecdote is genuine. And again it makes me think.
True but I have a feeling that comradebob is using IQ as 1:1 replacement for intelligence.
Wait, is there a race-realist in the thread? ’cause it sure sounds like it.
You seem desperate to talk about something and since I am not allowed to write anything about the non-use of the word censor, and since you have blown off my attempt to engage you regarding bullying (and completely misread or misrepresented my response in your one reply), I figured, since this thread is only about you, that I would attempt to converse with you and see if there is anything there that merits consideration. Besides, you are a white male so of course your opinion matters.
You assume I’m telling the truth? Thank you so very, very much.
@ComradeBob 92
Yeah, except for the 30 years of psychology research showing that increased education and affluence in a society has an almost immediate effect on IQ scores. Almost like IQ isn’t testing inherent intelligence at all, but how well you do in school. Hmmmm.
It is True that mathematics are associated with human evolution in the presence of agriculture, and Seasons. This is because metrics are not necessary with hunter-gathering populations. In contrast, mathematics and Geometry are critical to constructing structures, and planning crops. Humans skilled in these sciences had a clear evolutionary advantage in these environments, and were able to spread their genetic code.
For a data-point regarding the value of these talents, consider Haitian building codes. They had an earth-quake there recently and, like, everything fell down. Haitians did not evolve in the presence of Seasons, or agriculture. This also explains group IQ differences when things like counting are involved in the testing methods.
@ Taylor 99
I completely agree with your post except for…
“It’s almost like they know they hold a privileged position in society”
Remove the word “almost” and I agree 100%
Really? Do keep up.
@96, Janine:
Usually by rolling up and saying something fucking obtuse/tangential/scoldy and then feeling superior because he gets precisely the pointy reaction he expects for being fucking obtuse/tangential/scoldy.
Hm, silly me – I suspect you knew that and actually meant “how” as is “how in the name of decency?” I can only speculate. Perhaps youtube is no longer giving him the attention he clearly thinks he and his powerful fucking insight deserves so he skulks around FtB waiting for posts with certain topics to appear, where he’s guaranteed a response to every one of his keen observations.
Well, comradebob really is a bigoted asshole racist. #105 makes it official.
‘Racist’ is American State Religion dog whistle for ‘Heretic’.
This well beyond a dog whistle. This is a siren call.
Yeah, I’m amazed. It turns out he’s an even bigger asshole than it looked like on the other threads where he turned up. He seems to be a little more coherent here, though; I could actually make out what he was trying to say when he started spewing his racist bullshit, but I’m still not sure what the hell he was on about when he was talking about batteries(? I think?).
More oxymorons from a moron. Some of us cracked the code back in the ’60’s. We know what you are. You have nothing cogent to say.
That is a datapoint, but not for what you think it is.
Annnd, while I was typing that, he swerved straight back to incoherence.
And suddenly, Gardner’s response to The Bell Curve becomes relevant to the discussion. *headdesk*
No comradebob, “Racist” is the English word meaning “Racist”. It means that you believe that some races are biologically inferior to others. A racist is someone like you comradebob, who said in posts 92 and 105 that certain races are biologically inferior in terms in intelligence.
Gosh, racists are SO. VERY. INTERESTING. *yawn*
comradebob:
Um, no. Sweetpea, you really shouldn’t be so obviously proud of being a fuckwitted receptacle for every known bigoted stereotype. We also already have our quota of blockheaded fuckwit bigots here, so you really need to find somewhere else to land. I suggest an outhouse.
@comradebob 105
Man, I hate Poe’s law. It’s like as soon as I learned it existed, it made it impossible to believe that anyone could be so fucking stupid. And yet, I know that people like you really exist. It’s a cognitive dissonance that causes me no end of pain, specifically the pain of smacking my head into my desk.
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, the reason all those buildings fell down is that the overwhelmingly poor population of Haiti can’t build their homes according to earthquake-proof building standards? No, of course not, its because they’re too stupid to build them right. Makes sense.
@ Ogvorbis
How can I not assume, do I need to say “certain”? Alright, I believe your anecdote and I’m quite certain it’s genuine. I really don’t doubt it at all. Skeptics don’t like saying “certain” and I’m sure you feel the same way, it’s nothing personal.
I was really enjoying this exchange and I’d like to keep going.
If you want to talk about the issues from before that perfectly fine with me, I just wasn’t interested before, but now I could very well enjoy it.
I’m open to whatever you want to talk about.
No, “racist” is the Queen’s English for “halfwit lacking empathy and logic who thinks his unearned privilege is fully deserved and pre-ordained by God or by Nature and has Science and Reasons to prove it.”
If you’re offended by the term “racist”, perhaps you might want to not be a fucking racist.
Well, you can keep talking. I’m going to bed. I worked today and I work tomorrow. I am allowed to head off to bed, right?
@ Ogvorbis
Look obviously I’ve offended you somehow and I’m sorry for that. I enjoyed this talk and hopefully it can continue another time
Why does Bob keep asserting “the IQ differences of races” as if that’s been established?
Wow, so I finally finish skimming to the end of the last ‘dome and not only is Doug still spouting his unintelligible “you guise r meen!” bullshit but now we have someone trying to take away StevoR’s “king of racist mountain” trophy? Fun times!
So I just read the entire last Thunderdome thread and I have no idea what douglas was going on about. I have 108 comments in this thread to read, so hopefully some kind of point will have been made. I agree with Beatrice…it was fun for a while, but damn. After a certain point I wanted him to make whatever point he came here to make.
Save yourself the trouble. Really.
I don’t think he had a point to make Tony.
Tony, there is no point. Douglas is apparently so in love with the sight of his own pixels, he’s incapable of shutting the fuck up.
By the way, Douglas, there’s this bit from the rules, and it definitely applies to you:
@ Dysomniak
I don’t think you’re mean, actually this blog is quite friendly.
Douglas, you’re welcome.
You are naive. Think of the main reason anybody would say that. Some skeptic you are.
comradebob #105
Magnitude 7.0 earthquakes have that effect on buildings.
So where did Haitians evolve? While the seasonal differences in Hispaniola are less than, say, Manitoba, they aren’t negligible. However about two-thirds of Haiti’s population are agricultural workers, which is a higher percentage than Manitobans engaged in agriculture.
Just for curiousity’s sake, comradebob, are you related to douglas1102? You both have similar problems expressing yourselves intelligibly in written English.
The nascent evolutionary biologist in me just started weeping and went off to pour herself a shot of vodka. I feel strangely empty now.
The traveler in me wonders what comradebob would make of building codes in various poor countries with agriculture but–almost by coincidence–no strong government. The realist in me has thought about that proposition and has hopped up to join the biologist.
Laying the poor state of Haitian infrastructure at the feet of the allegedly not-as-evolved Haitians ignores (almost deliberately) the decades of foreign (read: rich and white) intervention in that country, including support of the deadly Duvalier regime, the effects of which still haunt Haiti. Is it any wonder the buildings in Haiti fall the fuck down when the place was run for decades for the benefit of a corrupt regime and its overseas backers, and then essentially left to rot by those same overseas interests once the dictators left?
Personal note: as a Red Cross worker during the earthquakes of a couple of years ago, it makes my blood fucking boil to hear some low-rent bigot with delusions of competence blame the sorry state of that nation on the alleged less-evolved nature of its inhabitants.
Haitians evolved in sub-Saharan Africa, and were transported to Haiti on boats relatively recently. Although some people dispute it, I believe that the spark that created all humanity is sub-Saharan Africa. This is because it is a relatively simple and nutrient-rich environment from which life could descend from trees and develop intelligence. From there, my conclusion is that man multiplied and, through conflict, was pushed into different environments, and necessarily became specialized to those environments, or died off.
Around 1789, Haiti was the richest colony in all of the West. Perhaps we can attribute modern Haitian building codes and their challenges with space travel to insufficient investments in education. We should consider Haiti’s educational neglect be a warning to us.
Jim aka noelplum99 has been kissed by the banhammer.
Jesus Christ but you’re dumb.
And boring.
I just … fuck.
What a maroon.
Amen Rev. BDC
He’s been exposed, and might as well go away. I’m sure most of us stopped listening except for entertainment purposes after the first “tell”.
*points finger at bigot* Bwahahahahahahahaha
*giggles behind hands*
When the ungrateful slaves over threw their French master. And became a pariah state. And paying off high loans for decades. And something that the US feared, especially the slave owning states. (Second Amendment.)
How many nations have space travel? Oh, you are trying to snark.
Read what mandrellian wrote at #136. Not that any of that means shit to you.
So, are you a white supremacist or a racial realist?
How about you work on a personal challenge with space travel? First, build a rocket. Scratch that, you’d be too incompetent. Find a rocket, then pull your pants down…
I’m sure you get the basic idea, you radical thinker, you.
Noelplum has been banned from Pharyngula despite the fact that he “agrees” with most of what PZ says.
Funny.
What at FtB has he not been banned from?
There should be “blog” between “What” and “at”.
Funny how it’s easy to be a rich colony when the vast majority of the population is considered property. Raises the GNP right up. Just think how much richer NYC would be if every person there were worth 100k in cash.
At this point it’d be tempting for some to claim we’re reversing the burden of proof and playing a game of “prove you’re not a racist”. However, the fact that our interlocutor is advancing the notion of an inherent cognitive deficiency of a particular ethnic group more or less defines him as a racist, regardless of what other words, large or small, he’d use to describe himself. Since comradebob’s own words have already revealed him to, at the very least, hold particular racist views, for one of us to say “prove you’re not a racist” wouldn’t be that far from reasonable.
Racial realist? I prefer to apply the term “real racist”
Douglas:
What you prefer isn’t the fucking point. Gad, do you ever get out of it’s all about me mode?
Janine was referring to specific descriptor racists give to themselves. FFS.
@131 I really can’t think of anything to but “heh.”
Mandrellian:
Oh, it’s not unreasonable. You can go back to the 2nd page of the previous incarnation of Thunderdome to see our house bigot once again crying “I’m not a bigot, I’m not!” after spewing some more of his standard bigotry.
dammit: @131 I really can’t think of anything to say but “heh.”
@ Caine
I know damn well what a race realist is and I call them real racists, and so should everyone else, most people that are active about that sort of thing already do.
There’s no such thing as “race realism” outside of imagination and I’ll be damned if I’ll give them the satisfaction.
What’s next? Gender realists? as in “I’m not sexist I’m a realist.”
Fuck that… if you wanna feed their delusion go right ahead but that’s not a game I’ll play.
Is Pharyngula big enough for two racists? Shall we have a dance off to see who stays…?
Fuck that. They can both begone.
I see douglas is still dense and boring.
@ Tony
The world isn’t big enough for two racists.
G’night folks =)
It’s not feeding their delusion, you fuckwit. It’s finding out how they describe themselves, which provides a foundation for making the correct arguments. As you can’t argue your way out of a wet paper bag, I’ll grant you don’t understand that.
For chrissakes, you can’t even manage to blockquote, in spite of people repeatedly showing you how to do so. You suck at communication, so you really should stick to reading or run back to YT, which seems to be your level of competency.
Simply because I was using one of their dog whistles does not mean I was giving them satisfaction. Most of us are familiar enough their code words that we can use it and call them on it.
Also, in case you missed it, comradebob denied being a racist.
Does not mean that he is not a racist.
Tethys:
If he sticks around and keeps up with such vapid commentary, I don’t think he’ll deal well at all whenever SG and CR get back to posting.
A better litmus test for this discussion would perhaps be ‘prove you are not a religious crazy person’ suffering from zealous group-think. The Catholic Church in the 1500s was very powerful, but brought down in the Enlightenment by the public study of celestial bodies. The dogma of today is much more fragile. I would suggest a TeeVee show that is on right now that is called ‘Hardcore Pawn’. We could perhaps live-blog our observations on human interaction as a part of this Thunder-dome discussion. I’ll start: The pawn-shop owners definitely have a higher verbal IQ than the customers. Also too a better understanding of the mathematical nature of interest payments.
Comradebob really is not the most coherent person.
Janine:
No, and now that we’ve been given what they consider to be fine viewing, they’re not exactly interested in anything which would challenge that pea brain they’re sporting.
“Verbal IQ”.
Define it. Then talk about who exactly you mean by “Hardcore Pawn customers” are and tell us why you think their “verbal IQ” might be lower.
Then tell me why anyone should give a flying fuck about some “reality” TV show and its bearing on your clear and present racism, and why we should take it as representative of reality when we all know “reality” shows are manipulated and selectively edited beyond all recognition.
Or, hey, maybe we should watch “Honey Boo Boo” or “Swamp People” and live-blog about their fucking “verbal IQ.”
Mandrellian:
Detroit. Black people.
For those who can’t find the dogwhistle: Hardcore Pawn is a show about a giant pawn shop. In Detroit. It focuses on the infighting of the people who own the business, the crazy items they get a chance to purchase, and, of course, the ridiculous customers they have to deal with. In Detroit. Guess the race of a good chunk of their customers! Here’s a hint for those who don’t already know Detroit’s racial demographics: comradebob is racist. And thinks that comparing the owners of a fucking business to customers so outrageous that they merited being filmed is an apples to apples comparison sufficient to act as evidence of the relative merits of different races.
@ Janine
I never said you were giving them satisfaction, and of course he denied being a racist that’s what real racists do.
If you don’t wanna use the term that’s fine by me but I wish people would.
Nice Foot Foot icon btw.
@ Caine
Actually I was only shown block-quotes once.
And don’t kid yourself into thinking FTB has better discourse than YT =)
anteprepro:
More to the point, it’s a “reality” show, which has little bearing on reality at all. Gods know how much film they burn through to get adequate drama, at least the bits which aren’t manufactured.
CAINE!!! *shakes fist*
anteprepro:
Sorry!
weird thread
Yep. I think of it like a compromise between fiction and non-fiction. Like fiction by a very banal and unimaginative writer. Or non-fiction by a Republican. Gotta meet somewhere in the middle, where facts and falsehoods can settle their differences, and just be brothers, ya know.
How does one measure a person’s verbal IQ? over the television.
You are a liar. It was pointed out to you how to blockquote in the Trumped thread you tried to derail. You started to use it and gave up almost immediately. Blockquotes were then explained to you on at least one subsequent occasion in the Thunderdome discussions.
Chas:
You have a gift for understatement.
:D
My responses are too slow. I need to find monkeys that can type faster.
sigh
I still want to know if comradebob wants to watch “Swamp People” or NASCAR and give those people marks on their “verbal IQ” by comparing them to white people on another white people show. One like “Masterchef” or a Formula One telecast. They’re all the same “race”, so would there be other considerations that make one bunch sound educated and one bunch sound less so?
Janine:
Easy. Them black and brown people don’t talk good.
By whether they sound Articulate to you or not. Which is a totally objective, unbiased way of determining intelligence, I reassure you. Those people who don’t use the same diction and dialect as myself are pretty clearly intellectually inferior. Just ask any expert who agrees with me.
Yes, between comradebobs racist train of thought, and douglas’s odd need for attention it has been odd.
I am pleased that smarmy noelplum met the banhammer. It was long overdue IMO.
As anyone with a basic grasp of probability recognizes, there are normal distributions within groups, and overall differences between groups. I’d define verbal IQ as the ability to accurately and articulately convert thoughts to voice, in a manner to benefit the individual speaking. A person voicing a phrase ‘nome sayin’ (translated: do you know what I am saying) as I have just witnessed would, in my opinion, have a lower verbal IQ than the typical air traffic controller, who is required in most cases to be clear, for the purposes of safety. I also believe that the female who was caught with the fake jewelry who believed that the tactic of pulling out her boob would change the outcome of the negotiation was pretty stupid.
Douglas:
You’re a fucking liar. At least three people went out of their way to show you. I’ll even do it again, because when you blockquote, you can reply to many people in *one* post, rather than dominating the whole thread in motormouth style.
<blockquote>PLACE TEXT HERE</blockquote>
Cut & Paste this: <blockquote></blockquote> and put it into a handy text editor or other app, such as notepad if you can’t manage to type it and copy paste it into the text box here as many times required for a response.
Jesus.
If that proves too overwhelming and you use firefox, then get a fucking add on which will do the hard bits for you: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/text-formatting-toolbar/ – all you have to do is set it to HTML and click on the little icons for blockquote, italics, etc.
Jesus. Again.
All the yammering and yet all that comes out is that comradebob loves his racist stereotypes.
Your low verbal IQ is showing.
Old enough to remember the O.J. Simpson trial? Johnnie Cochrane was said to be “articulate.” It made me crazy. He was glib, at best.
George A. bartholomew was articulate.
Those fucking Canadians and Brits and Midwesterners and Southerners must have low verbal IQs, because they don’t properly pronounce their words compared to my fellow Perfectly Speaking Northeastern United States Citizens. Truly, everyone else that I don’t understand as well must simply be inferior to the people who I am, entirely coincidentally, most familiar with.
Chas:
That got on my nerves too. It still annoys me no end that anyone would describe him as articulate. I suppose, anymore, when most people can’t even manage a proper sentence, he appears articulate. After all, look at how much Bush Jr. mangled language and he was president.
Well Janine, we all know that what is most important is bobs ability to feel superior to all those other “inferior” type people who didn’t evolve with seasons…
Oooh, do you know if there’s an app like that for Chrome?
I hope you’ve considered that this difference in “verbal IQ” between your Detroit black person and your air-traffic controller could be a longstanding cultural influence on the speaking of English that affects pronunciation, inflection and vernacular amongst black residents of Detroit, in precisely the same way it does in the UK, where there are so many different accents and regional vernaculars that it’d make your fucking head spin, just as it does across the rest of the Anglophone world. Would you consider a native Scot or white Afrikaaner with a thick accent as having a lower “verbal IQ” than a white Oxford or Yale professor with immaculate pronunciation because you have trouble understanding them? Or is it just patois that you issues with?
Say, would you say Stephen Hawking has a higher or lower “verbal IQ” than Neil deGrasse Tyson? One of those guys is much easier to understand than the other.
This notion of “verbal IQ” in nonsensical anyway (understandably, as it appears to have been extracted from your colon) – it automatically and implicitly assumes higher or lower intelligence based on verbal communication skills based on nothing but your personal difficulty in comprehension. Accents and vernacular are a feature of English, not a bug – you should do yourself a favour and learn how languages develop and are used outside of your cosy little bubble.
There is nothing superior about evolving with Seasons. Those who did not evolve with Seasons were subject to the pressures of a Natural Aristocracy of Man based upon speed and strength for tens of thousands of years more than Agricultural persons. This explains the demographics of NFL defensive linebackers and running backs, all of whom earn more money than me. Also Ray Lewis could probably, although not definitely, defeat me in a boxing match. The superior person is the one who can celebrate human bio-diversity, which is one of Americans biggest strengths, in the case of fielding a competitive football team.
Nathaniel:
I’m sorry, I don’t know. I have some vague memory of it coming up before though…if anyone would know, it would be SG, but he’s not around right now.
You know, I have a semi-funny, quasi-relevant story about a racist that I’d like to share.
My step-grandmother, after my grandfather died, met and began a serious relationship with a fellow named Dan (They got married, eventually. We no longer speak.) We first met him at a hotel/casino, where they were visiting for a weekend, and here are some of the lovely things he decided to do in front of his fiance’s grandchildren that he met five minutes ago:
1. In response to a television news story about a NFL player who fell off a pickup truck and died: “Hey, one less nigger runnin’ around.”
2. In response to my (white, Jewish) sister mentioning her Haitian date to the prom: “If you date a nigger, I swear I’ll beat the shit out of him.”
3. In response to a black waiter walking past him, minding his own business: “Man, a lot of nigger waiters for an Indian casino.”
All of this within an hour, and spoken to us as though he were talking about the air conditioning being too cold. My step-grandmother’s excuse was that as long as he kept it down around her black customers, it was his business. True, but completely beside the point. The truly ironic part came near the end of the night. He got lucky, and won 8000+ dollars on a high stakes slot machine. (He is by no means wealthy.) He left the casino about 10 minutes later, and we didn’t see him until the next morning.
We have no idea where the hell he was, but when he came back, he called us out to the front of the building to look at his Hummer. Turns out, the minute he got some money, he went to some kind of all-night body shop (do those even exist?) and bought a new set of the largest, shiniest, most obnoxiously expensive looking rims in the history of chrome. He also defaced the back of the car with an enormous Ed Hardy-style rhinestone decal with the letters “Big Daddy” on it. The only thing I could think of, as a 17 year old, was that if a black guy had rolled up in the same car, he would’ve called him a money wasting nigger too.
The lesson in all of this, if you’ll pardon my long-windedness, is that racists don’t really care about the stereotypes that they spew. White supremacists, like ComradeBob, view themselves as part of the “White Team,” and they always cheer against the “Black Team.” There is little use in explaining why their ideas are wrong, just as there is no use explaining to a sports fan why their team sucks. The narrative helps them justify it to an extent, but take all that away and they still have their violent anger towards people who don’t look like them, and that is more than enough.
Mandrellian, going by comradebob’s ability when it comes to written communication, I’d say he has little to complain about when it comes to how other people sound when they talk.
Mandrellian, going by comradebob’s ability when it comes to written communication, I’d say he has little to complain about when it comes to how other people sound when they talk.
That had occurred to me – more than once. “Physician, heal thyself – perhaps by shutting the fuck up” and all that.
What is with camradebob’s random capitalization? Yet more low verbal IQ ramblings.
Arse-biscuits. ^That bit in #194 was meant to be a blocky, not a slanty! Buggeration – I must have ‘roos in me top paddock or such-like.
*peeks in*
Oh, I see. It’s that kind of thread today.
@ sunny 12: That link is brilliant. Thank you.
Also, thanks to everyone else who provided their objections to libertarians. I suspected the rancor was because of economics but had not seen any specific posts about/with libertarians.
I wonder what racistbob would have been saying fifty years when football players did not make much more then the average person.
And do the owners of NFL teams, who make more then the players, have a higher verbal IQ?
Is that a reference to Thomas Jefferson? Cuz that’s what google’s bringing up.
And…I kind of feel the need to vomit.
Have you noticed those Hmong speakers? TERRIBLE verbal IQs. I can’t understand them at all.
Mandrellian:
Hey, no speakin’ furrin languages in here!
;D
Here is the quote.
There is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents.
And slaves. We must not forget about the slaves. Virtue, talent and slaves.
@202, Caine:
I’m flappin’ me gums with Queen Bessie’s flamin’ English, ta very muchly.
It’s okay guys, Bob’s not a racist, he celebrates America’s bio-diversity! Not diversity, mind you, biodiversity, which means he likes the idea of having a couple different species of the genus Homo running around, one to do all the smart stuff, one to run the dry cleaning stores, one to run the gas station mini-marts. and one to play on all the football teams.
Nathaniel:
Well, Jefferson was a slave owner and a man of his time. He certainly had some good and enlightened ideas on some subjects, but there’s no point in ignoring the bad ones.
But there is something just a little sickening about a slave owner talking a natural aristocracy.
Hmm. We’ve got a specimen here who’s actually mixing puerile bigotry with something that at least sort of resembles evolutionary psychology?
Possibilities come to mind:
1. This is a troll who has actually bothered to do a little research on Pharyngula’s favored hot-button topics.
2. It’s a sophisticated Poe after all.
3. It’s actually one of those anti-evolution natural fallacy creobots who actually thinks evolution means the end of all human decency who is going on a fishing-trap expedition to try to get some atheists quoted as agreeing with its bigotry because it thinks that’s what evolutionary theory actually really says.
Either way, methinks the standard reaction is in order:
FEED! FEED! FEED!
Janine:
Yes, there is. At the time Jefferson was alive and in power, there were still warring ideals of what defined manhood. The ideal of the ‘Genteel Patriarch’ was still alive at the time, even though men were actively fighting against it, because it was seen to be the British ideal of manhood, so American manhood needed to be defined differently. Jefferson embraced the ‘Genteel Patriarch’ model of masculinity.
Not that any of that makes it better.
I think he is a racist with a superiority complex and grabs what claptrap he can to try to back it up. In a lot of ways, he is not too different in approach from annejones.
Amphiox:
I’m more in the mood for Mock! Mock! Mock!
Not surprising, Caine. Of all the American colonies, Virginia and the Carolinas were closest to Britain.
MOCK FEED! MOCK FEED! MOCK FEED!
“PC” is douchebag dog-whistle for “some serious douchebaggery is about to come out of my mouth.”
Taylor @205:
You realize that you’re the only one who can comprehend the greatness that is comradebob? That means from now on you have to translate his racist ramblings for the rest of us. I don’t know if you fully understand how much work you have ahead of you.
Comradebob it’s amazing how weak your trolling is.
Come on! Step up your game! You should start with some tone trolling about how we’re like mean girls in high school so you can be casually sexist, then you need to bring up some Libertarian Talking points about how laws against discrimination actually hurt the free market which of course is always good and pure, and then you can fail to flounce a couple of times. You should also post faster and say stupider, more inane, more aggrandizing bullshit.
Frankly I’m unimpressed with you so far.
The Thunderdome seems the best place for “Eighteen human heads found at O’Hare Airport.
We wanted to fly united, but we lost our heads?
Punchline: misdirected medical specimens.
Those heads are old news.
This thread, of late, has been like reading “Waiting for Godot” while stoned…
And here, in the comments, are defenders of Rush Limbaugh declaring that “require each abortion to occur with a gun” doesn’t advocate violence against women, without ever saying what it does mean.
Apparently, we all have wild imaginations.
They were news to me!
@219, theophontes:
There’s another way to read Beckett?
Mandrellian:
*Snortle*
Janine, have you heard from Patricia lately? She’s been gone a while now.
I was just thinking it is time to send her an e-mail.
Where’s our pet race troll? I was looking forward to more substantive responses. I was hoping that in addition to the hit arguments like I Don’t Understand Your Accent So You’re Stupid and I’m Not Racist Because Football Has Blacks In It, he’d come back with some more gems – maybe Black People Don’t Drive in NASCAR Because O’ Them Big Ol’ Hairdos or even If Africans Didn’t Want To Be Enslaved They Should Have Said So More Clearly Because Low Verbal IQ Obviously Made It Hard For Slavers To Understand Their Terrified Screams.
@ mandrellian
1. Drunk on white wine, in the sun.
2. Stronken.
Neither of which, through bitter experience learned, I would recommend.
mandrellian @226:
You own me a new laptop!
This thread got weirder overnight.
I actually wouldn’t mind discussing IQ tests, but I despair over douglas ever getting the difference between intelligence and an arbitrary measure of intelligence.
Beatrice:
We can discuss them and just ignore Douglas’s “contributions”. I find them to be basically useless, as the variables are so great. Also, the historical use of IQ tests is an ugly one.
I was only in touch with IQ tests while searching for a job. They are the favorite first test in many places. I guess that yeah, the discussion can pretty much start and end with “they’re basically useless”.
They seem to be stacked against people prone to more abstract thinking.
I will have to look up their historical use. I only vaguely know, mostly from here, that they were used as a tool of racist and class discrimination. Reading up will have to wait until I’m home, though.
Beatrice:
Yes, they were, and to great effect too. We’re still seeing the effects of such use and it’s still used to shore up the beliefs of bigots everywhere. Beliefs about intelligence have led to horrific actions, such as in the case of Carrie Buck.
@ Beatrice
There are two more important measures, IMHO:
1. EQ: Emotional intelligence.
2. GQ: Guanxi intelligence.
Theophontes, I’d the Horde measures well on both of those.
Lower Saxony has voted its conservative Scottish PM out of office! It was a neck-and-neck race until the very end, at the end the Red Green coalition had a one seat majority
Red Green state governments (and in one case, double-red) now will have a majority in the Bundesrat (upper chamber)
There is a flaming doucheweasel in the thread about Natalie Reed.
“Oh, so sad and all, but she didn’t write about atheism or skepticism and FTB will soon find another transgender writer, so it’s all good!”
*spits*
http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-should-the-risk-of-suicide-be-included-in-abortion-legislation-762857-Jan2013/
A poll on Irish abortion law
Are there any freshwater cephalopods? Question asked here :
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/01/16/3670198.htm
& also answered – neither one by me. Just saw this linked article. Also just saw on BBC world news this :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21082617
on an 8th century Gamma Ray burst our historical ancestors may have survived.
Plus :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-21115351
the trial of the rapists has begun in India.
What the fuck is it with douchenozzle scumbags vomiting excrement all over Natalie Reed’s FTB departure thread.
Good riddance NoelPlum99 and Fuck off Steveencarr.
Natalie Reed deserves much better than that and all the other shit sh’es had to endure from such (& even worse) assclams over the years.
kieran,
There is nothing more disheartening than reading the comments on those abortion in Ireland articles. It’s weird to think that so many women leave the country to have an abortion in the UK, and yet, because nobody talks about abortion, these people protesting against abortion don’t even know why a woman would have one. They have no clue. That’s what silence does. And why, in a secular country, would Enda Kenny be having official consultations with the church?
Re: this weird thread, skepticism, comradebob
I have always thought that celebrating skepticism is a lot like celebrating literacy. These are fundamental: necessary, but not sufficient, goals if we hope to have a productive ermm…like, dialogue, I guess. But once I learned to read, I don’t need to be in a movement of readers. I’m not especially proud of being able to read, because it is so fundamental. I don’t have a bumper sticker that says “Literate”. Proclaiming one’s skepticism seems a lot like proclaiming one’s literacy.
And then comradebob comes along, almost as an emissary* from the stupid to remind us of the need for skepticism.
*I’m not saying that this is somehow a conspiracy perpetrated by skeptics to restore unity, but nothing short of public and ridiculous idiocy would serve in that capacity. In other words.
Is “high verbal IQ” one of those Western values I have heard so much about?
/snark
comradebob:
I think the logic centers of your brain are borked. You should get that checked out.
We’ve a long way to go before we are a secular nation. A secular constitution would be nice
I’m not 100% comradebob is actually sapient. I’m going to assume it’s a bot using keywords to determine which prepackaged dribblings to post next, until proven otherwise.
kieran:
Which of the many nations represented by the various commenters here are you speaking of?
Tony, Ireland. Kieran’s previous post was about anti-abortion activism there.
I’m glad I didn’t read this thread last night.
I was running a fever and probably would have thought I was hallucinating.
Er.. chigau? http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/14/thunderdome-14/comment-page-2/#comment-540655
Thanks Beatrice! I was trying to forget all about Dougie-boy.
Since I am feeling lazy, and really don’t fancy wading through his crap, did he ever actually say what his argument was ?
He didn’t have one he could put forward. Actually, he seemed overly proud of something to do with meaningless video commentary. He was very disappointed at the yawns resulting from this disclosure.
I was just reminding chigau of commenting yesterday.
No, Matt. We were cheated. His only argument was that he didn’t actually mean censorship when he wrote about censorship. There was nothing else. The whole “and then we can move on” was a lie. There was nothing to move on to.
He has a three digit IQ…probably. He agrees that he’s incoherent or at least that’s what I think he said. Also he needs to be taught how to blockquote every ten minutes or else he forgets that people already taught him how to do it.
Yep Ireland, sorry should have made that more clear. Also a bit of a lurker on threads so may not reply quickly.
I may be a bit late to the party (tsk, and my first time attending, too!), but does comraderacist envision pawn shop exchanges with white clientele to go like this?:
White Shop Owner With Excellent Verbal IQ: Why, good evening! How may I be of service to you on this fine day?
White Customer With Equally (Very Naturally Come By) Well-Developed Verbal IQ: Hello, good sir! I wish to exchange this fine television set for several of Her Majesty’s finest British Pounds Sterling. Could you possibly see your way clear to accommodating me with a fair price?
WSOWEVIQ: But of course, my good man! Would you be so kind as to place your television set, which I can see is a fine one indeed, upon the counter? There’s a good chap!
etc…
Because, really, all I’m getting from the mention of this reality show which apparently proves “how brown people don’t talk so good” (which, incidentally, is how I always interpreted the comments about Johnnie Cochran being so articulate, as more of a “my, isn’t he well-spoken (subtext: for a black man)?” bit of veneered bigotry, rather than a sincere appraisal of his apparent oratorial prowess) is comradebob’s failure to grok “isn’t it weird how colloquial speech works, and differs along so many lines, including class, race, location, social group, decade, and OH MY GOD EVEN SITUATION?” Or do all we Vastly Superior And Naturally Well-Educated White People ™ conduct all verbal interactions with the same level and style of formality?
Beatrice
That was almost 18 hours ago.
and I’m still hallucinating…
comradebob:
(what, only “most” cases?) But they have a tiny vocabulary!
So…I spent a good ten years growing up in Japan. Most of it I spent in Northern Honshu near a little (but important) city named Misawa, while my father was stationed on the air base. My parents did not believe in base housing. They considered the people who lived in base housing to be the kind of people who wanted to hole up and pretend they weren’t actually overseas.
I took two years of Japanese in high school. I then took two quarters of Japanese from the local UMUC on base, where we were actually learning Tokyo Standard dialect. Apparently my high school teacher had been teaching us the local dialect, which (from what I understood from my teacher) was akin to talking with a southern drawl in the U.S. She had fun breaking some of my bad habits.
By this point I was good enough that, if someone spoke slowly and clearly, I could usually get the gist of what they were saying. It started to feel like shifting gears. I’d slip into a sort of “Japanese mode” and only after we were done speaking did I actually “translate” in my head what we had spoken about. I could even use the McDonald’s drive-throughs (I miss teriyaki mcburgers :<).
And, since I've been out of country for about nine years now and I've done nothing to keep my skill up, I really can't do any of that any more.
So, really…what does "verbal IQ" have to do with any of that? Did my "Verbal IQ" drop? If I drove for fifteen minutes into the mountains and tried to talk with the people there, their dialect would be so strong that I literally could not follow along. My friend had to translate for me.
Now, they could easily communicate among each other, no problem. Do their "Verbal IQs" drop when they visit their friends in Tokyo? I'm sure that the poor people of Detroit have no problem communicating with each other. Are their "Verbal IQs" just fine and dandy until enter suburbia?
Matt:
1) We’re mean.
2) Actually, we’re kinda friendly.
3) He’s terribly smart, because yootube.
4) He’s a sexist, but hey, it’s what he does.
5) He’s a liar, claiming only one person explained blockquotes.
6) He’s a white male, but privilege doesn’t apply to him because he grew up poor and stuff.
@ Caine 260
Thanks for taking the time to post that info
@55
Thank you Caine for the two links you provided. Both taught me a great deal. They helped me to recognize what till now had gone unrecognized.
Douglas:
You’re most welcome. You may as well get used to the fact that around here, people pay attention, even if you don’t. Your words don’t disappear, they remain, so everyone can see. Try to remember that.
dogfightwithdogma:
Wow. Thank you! You made my day. Nope, you made my month!
Caine
I dunno, based on the ink, I’d say my GQ is pretty shit. Regarding IQ tests, they do measure something. Specifically, they appear to measure how much time and effort one has spent in school. I say this because places with public education see increases in measured IQ (As I understand it, the tests are regularly recalibrated to keep the average at 100; otherwise anyplace with decent public education starts breaking the scale pretty quickly) (From Better Angels of our Nature I think).Snoof
If so, it’s a very poorly programmed one.
Md is here to reclaim MLK for the teabagging and militias crowd.
Thanks to all of you that replied.
It seems I will never know what dougie was actually trying to say, but then I suspect he is still pretty clueless as well.
I guess douglas is trying to figure out how to get past acknowledging not one but two VERIFIABLE LIES that he’s told. After all, he’s the one that said he’d not move until VERIFIABLE LIES were acknowledged. The first that he was shown only once how to blockquote before his last protest about it. The second, that referring to unknown commenters as male is “that’s what I do” in my case, but doesn’t explain why he referred to Nerd of Redhead as “her.”
*sweeping out Thunderdome*
I’m finding myself anticipating things as far as mildew pit denizens are concerned nowadays. I detest the thought process. Justin Vacula raising money to go to WiS2, for example, was bad enough. I had read Surly Amy’s post about grants for this year at Skepchick a couple of days earlier: grants for women to attend American Atheists and for men to attend WiS2. I had the fleeting thought of “Ugh, what if one of the ‘pitters starts making jokes/insinuations about this?” Then, Vacula says that he’s applied for one of them.
Damn, the man made a hateful video solely about Amy on the 4th of this month, and just a couple of days past two weeks later, he’s applying for one of her grants?!?
*spits*
Athyco:
His being a sexist coupled with very poor reading comprehension about covers it. Besides, Nerd wasn’t being “kind” to Douglas, so to him that would equal female, whereas you were acting like a human being, and as we all know, human being equals male.
Wait, I thought Nerd was the only chick here?
You guys are just plain weird O.o
Huh. Toward the end of the “Trumped!” thread, I told him bluntly how he’d come in like a horse’s ass even before he made the “censor” mistake. He could also have heard a Straw Vulcan that would also lead him to “male.”
What’s weird about getting irritated at VERIFIABLE LIES, douglas?
You’re just plain not with it. Not surprising, as you can’t forward an argument.
Why? Because we don’t like fucking liars, Douglas? You’re a liar. You could always own up to that, but I guess lying is just fine in your world.
Oh, and speaking of that “anticipating” I feel about the pitters and f00ters. I meant to tell you this earlier, douglas.
In the last Thunderdome, you wrote:
You’ve already done one thing to make Ana Kasparian do something you want that she would not: have to read an angry, shitty top comment that you provoked on her video. She’s not our enemy, and she’s not a bone to be fought over. She’s a woman with a brain and the right to make her own decisions. If you creep on her to “make her aware. Very Aware,” then I’m going to let her know that you instigated the whole thing to manipulate her.
@Athyco
Manipulate her O.o? (wtf???) I sincerely hope you do, I’m not even remotely hiding it. Isn’t it obvious you’d be helping me? Besides… they know damn well who I am from when they covered “Maple Spring” on TYT university. And that comment is directed at ME!!! not HER so what are you even thinking???
If Young Turks wanna give air to Tf00T and TAA they can go fuck themselves.
As for my first comments, I conceded your points and apologized so what are you trying to accomplish now? Would you like me to perform some kind of penance?
Anyway, this is cutting into my game time and I really can’t see the point of this, so unless you wanna come play (seriously come play =) you’re not gonna hear from me for a while.
This kind of response would really stroke the ego of a lot of people, but to me… it’s just plain weird.
@270. dysomniak, darwinian socialist
Nerd is a juvenile of some avian species – obviously genetically engineered to understand and interact in English and obviously one that takes a long time to mature as xe has been participating here for several years whereas the “chick” stage of avian lifeforms generally lasts mere months before they reach at least fledgling status? Hmm .. that strikes me as improbable.
Athyco:
Absolutely. If you need help or back up on that score, I’m right here. That sort of egotistical sexism is poisonous, and no woman should have to deal with that crap so Dougie can pat himself on the back.
Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck!
I am actually getting very upset dealing with squiller in the Natalie Reed thread.
Sorry.
@StevoR Don’t fucking talk to me. Nothing your racist ass has to say will ever be cute or funny, so just save yourself the trouble. I still can’t figure out why you insist on posting here. Most people hate you more than I do. JUST GO AWAY.
Look at those past tense verbs. They mean you’d done the conceding/apologizing before comment 277. Well then, prove it. I state that you neither acknowledged your errors that I point out nor apologized. First, the apology to me on the last Thunderdome:
What a perfect example of how ridiculous your communication skills are! The above sentence (as you can see from my bold) apologizes for missing my comment, not for your identifying me, without reason, as a man. Nowhere did you ever mention your misgendering of Nerd of Redhead. Nowhere have you said that obviously you also sometimes make decisions to use feminine pronouns with “that’s what I do.” That’s evidence of you not being very observant even about yourself, douglas.
You never apologized for saying in 167 on this thread that you’d only been given blockquote directions once. I direct your attention to comment 91 in this same thread where Nerd gave it to you again at 8:16 p.m. You commented nine times in the next two hours, then say again that you’d only been shown once at 10:48.
You don’t give a fuck what I want, or you wouldn’t have lied about having “conceded” and “apologized.”
I know. Don’t be sorry, Janine. Pond scum is more intelligent and attractive than that piece of shit. I sent an alert, that derail has gone on way too long.
I killfiled the fuckwit. He can spill venom all he wants, but I’m not reading it anymore.
Caine:
No one I’d like better, Caine. *fistbump*
He doesn’t have a second thought that the nasty comment is on Ana’s video; why, it’s to him! It’s like some middle school idiot saying, “Hey, I borrowed your science notes, and look–that guy drew a penis on them because I hit him with a spitball! Don’t you hate him?”
How do I make a tiny url for Tweeter?
Tweeter? I know my spelling is bad but this is silly. Twitter.
I’m beginning to think fuckwit is much too kind a descriptor for you, Douglas.
This is not about you missing a comment. It’s about your default sexism is assuming Athyco was male.
Now I know you didn’t even bother to read the links I provided on privilege. You just up and decided it didn’t apply to you. Crispy Christ on toast points, you are revealing yourself to be a narcissistic assclam with either no ability to comprehend what someone else is saying, or you are one stupid jackass.
Janine
Understandable. He’s a complete doucheweasel.
@281. dysomniak, darwinian socialist :
1) I wasn’t necessarily talking to you – its an open thread remember with plenty of others here.
2) That’s a fucking lie. I’m NOT racist. I don’t call and never have called for anyone to be persecuted or in any way treated unfairly based on the colour of their skin or because of anything outside of an individual’s own volition such as sexual orientation or gender. Personally, I don’t believe in the idea of “races” even existing scientifically at all. I once challenged y’all to give one example of me saying something specifically racist & no one could.
Yes, I think terrorism should be fought strongly and, no, that’s not the same thing as racism at all.
The correct thing for you to do would be to face the reality that you have lied and slandered me here, apologise for it – and cease doing it. That’s a fact . Now are you going to do the right thing here then?
3) Most people here eh? You got the stats on that? Provide an internet poll on it maybe? (sarcasm.)
4) Even if it was true don’t you think that the reason for that might be because certain people here keep lying about me and attributing tome positions and attitudes that I do NOT actually hold? You’ve created a strawperson in your own imagination and you are calling it me (well StevoR) but it is NOT me.
5) No need to shout.. and as politely as I can put this. No. It’s not your blog, I’m not here for your comments but because I choose to be , because I generally enjoy reading and occassionally commenting here and, in case you haven’t noticed, I’ve lately been voluntarily grudgingly restricting myself to thunderdome even though its not something I’m either compelled or keen to do. So I’ve been meeting my haters and bullies here -and yes you are bullying other commenters specifically me – more than halfway. I reserve the right to comment elsewhere here still and will eventually do so anyhow. You don’t like me? That’s due to your own misjudgment and I wish you’d reconsider. You don’t want me to comment here – that’s not your choice but between me – and also PZ and Chris Clarke.
That’s
4) Even if it was true don’t you think that the reason for that might be because certain people here keep lying about me and attributing to me positions and attitudes that I do NOT actually hold?
Such as where you write in #126. dysomniak, darwinian socialist
If you knew me in RL you’d know I’m the least racist person around – an anti-racist activist in fact.
@281. dysomniak, darwinian socialist :
Since you’re sort of asking – one good reason now is to prove you are wrong and get you to comprehend that I’m not the fucking monster some here have wrongly painted me as being due to their own prejudices and failures to read my actual words as opposed to other people’s lies about me.
Another is because I’m stubborn and I am not going to driven away by bullies and abuse.
Plus there’s the fact that I’ve often got stuff to say that I think y’all will find interesting such as some of the news items I’ve cited and poll updates and so on. Oh, and I think it helps for y’all to have the ocassional constructive dissenter* and differing perspectives on some issues too.
* Although I agree with the consensus of commentary here most of the time on most issues anyhow – maybe 80:20 or so.
StevoR:
Yet you’ve made many people here think you are based on what you’ve written.
(Why do you think that might be?)
Walter Mitty syndrome would account for it.
Hi Beatrice,
*winks back*
Of course StevoR is racist. And he always does this, he says something racist, when called out on it, he ignores it completely as though it didn’t happen, and continues talking about other things.
One time someone even confronted him with direct quotes of the racist shit he had said, but to no avail.
I mean we’ve just seen it again. He was called out for spewing his Ehrenarier bullshit, and then? Nothing. Nada. He keeps talking about video games or what the flying fuck he was talking about at the same time.
He is a racist who has no place on Pharyngula, but that’s just me…
If he is an anti-racist activist, he reminds me of that conservative speaker of state parliament, who at an event called upon everyone to combat racism, and used racist concepts in his own speech. That guy as a speaker of state parliament at least is marginally useful.
Fucking squiller is still fingerpainting with shit at the thread about Natalie Reed.
Obvious trolling is trolling and is obvious, Janine.
It has a veneer of plausibility but there’s been plenty of slippage.
(Chewtoy status has been acquired, for me)
No. You just called for the nuclear strike for Muslim states. Because their ideology does not jibe with Western culture, in fact, you fear that they with destroy Western culture. It just so happens that most of those peoples happen to not be pasty white.
So sorry to confuse you with a racist.
(Strange aside; I tend not to believe anyone who claims to be the least racist, sexist or homophobic people you could ever meet. Just a funny quirk I have.)
Also, that bit you did about Nerd. Antifunny. That means that everything around it that is actually funny, becomes less funny. It destroys humor.
I know, John. But for some reason, I am allowing this to upset me more than normal. I guess I really dislike it when a person rhetoric points to flourish uses the misery of what seems like a decent person to score points.
@296. Janine: Hallucinating Liar :
For pity’s sake, I’ve apologised for and clarified the comments made once when I getting carried away one night when I was drunk,emotional and overtired how many times now? I’ve lost count.
NO I Do NOT advocate nuclear strikes on anyone.
Okay?
No, because their ideology means they’re engaged in a violent terrorist jihad to wipe us and others off the planet I think they – specifically Islamists terrorists like AlQuadea, Hamas, Jemahh idslamiyya and the Taliban – need to be fought without pulling too many punches. Because tehy wish toand are trying to destroy the “Greater and lesser Satans” menaing youand me and everyone else intheWest who isn’t an Islamist.
@292. John Morales :
Well it isn’t what I’ve written but a few people’s misinterpretation of it (ie Reading comprehension fails) combined with repeated strawpeople and lies by others here wrongly
.. accusing me of being a monster that I’m not.
And a nuclear strike on Iran would help to reduce that ideology.
No one needed to lie about you.
And your attempt to wear a virtual hairshirt (Fallible Human Being) is simply pathetic.
@293. pelamun, the Linguist of Doom
22 January 2013 at 2:19 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Hi Beatrice,
*winks back*
Of course StevoR is racist. And he always does this, he says something racist, when called out on it, he ignores it completely as though it didn’t happen, and continues talking about other things.
One time someone even confronted him with direct quotes of the racist shit he had said, but to no avail.
I mean we’ve just seen it again. He was called out for spewing his Ehrenarier bullshit, and then? Nothing. Nada. He keeps talking about video games or what the flying fuck he was talking about at the same time.
He is a racist who has no place on Pharyngula, but that’s just me…pelamun, the Linguist of Doom
22 January 2013 at 2:19 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Hi Beatrice,
*winks back*
Of course StevoR is racist. And he always does this, he says something racist, when called out on it, he ignores it completely as though it didn’t happen, and continues talking about other things.
One time someone even confronted him with direct quotes of the racist shit he had said, but to no avail.
I mean we’ve just seen it again. He was called out for spewing his Ehrenarier bullshit, and then? Nothing. Nada. He keeps talking about video games or what the flying fuck he was talking about at the same time.
He is a racist who has no place on Pharyngula, but that’s just me… the Linguist of Doom :
Wrong pelamun. Wrong so many times in so many ways. For instance I’ve been abusively and falsely called a racist right here and now and am addressing that and refuting it right here and now.
Its possible, of course, that I haven’t replied to everything shat out about me here by some liars like you because, hey, I don’t spend all day here and have stuff to do in Real Life. I don’t always see every comment on every thread.
You think you’ve got a good example somewhere of one time or maybe more whatever where I haven’t answered some crap you dumped about me? Well, cite it here, link or repaste or however and I’ll answer it for you here. In time – I may of course be busy but I will try. Promise.
Seriously What the Fuck are you talking about there? “Ehrenarier” eh? I admit I haven’t caught up on all the of this or the last thread but I’ve never used that fucken word that I can remember. Seems you are confusing me with someone else which could explain a bit. Again, see my promise above. Cit it and I’ll refute it or maybe you can just admit you got that wrong and mistook me for someone else and save us all time?
Calling people “racists” doesn’t make that true. You wrongly claim I’m racist, I know I not.
I challenge you to show me one quote from me where I say people should be mistreated based on their skin colour – you can’t do it – you owe me an apology.
Calling someone who isn’t a racist and trying to bully them off someone else’s blog is an despicable bullying douchecanoe thing to do, pelamun.
Oh for fucks sake. The fuck happened there?
Take II for clarity :
@ 293. pelamun, the Linguist of Doom :
Wrong pelamun. Wrong so many times in so many ways. For instance I’ve been abusively and falsely called a racist right here and now and am addressing that and refuting it right here and now.
Its possible, of course, that I haven’t replied to everything shat out about me here by some liars like you because, hey, I don’t spend all day here and have stuff to do in Real Life. I don’t always see every comment on every thread.
You think you have a good example somewhere of one time or maybe more whatever where I haven’t answered some crap you dumped about me? Well, cite it here, link or repaste or however and I’ll answer it for you here. In time – I may of course be busy but I will try. Promise.
Seriously What the Fuck are you talking about there? “Ehrenarier” eh? I admit I haven’t caught up on all the of this or the last thread but I’ve never used that fucken word that I can remember. Seems you are confusing me with someone else which could explain a bit. Again, see my promise above. Cit it and I’ll refute it or maybe you can just admit you got that wrong and mistook me for someone else and save us all time?
Calling people “racists” doesn’t make that true. You wrongly claim I’m racist, I know I not.
Calling someone who isn’t a racist and trying to bully them off someone else’s blog is an despicable bullying douchecanoe thing to do, pelamun.
I challenge you to show me one quote from me where I say people should be mistreated based on their skin colour – you can’t do it – you owe me an apology.
StevoR, what harm has any Muslim ever done you or your family or your friends because of their religion?
@ Athyco
Although I was sure I had and can even remember the wording I can’t find the comment so I guess I’ll have to take that back. I apologize for posting the quote on PZ’s thread, I wasn’t aware it was not allowed.
As for Block-quotes I’ve been told three times as far as I can see, on PZ’s blog, by Rev, and by Caine (My “thank you” to Caine on this thread was for taking the time to do that and not for the comment preceding the thank you)
I admit I missed Rev posting (he never directed the comment at me btw) so that would make me incorrect when I said “once” (not a liar) but that’s still not “three people” as Caine said that before she posted how to do the quotes. However if I missed one, I suppose I could have missed another. So show me these “three people” and I’ll concede to that as well.
As you pointed out yourself I don’t always make that assumption, it was a simple mistake and I don’t care if you think it’s latent sexism. Nor do I care if you think I was apologizing for “missing your comment”.
And as for the Young Turks, go right ahead. I don’t care. As a matter of fact I DARE YOU =)
I could make many claims of my own but I really just don’t care, I post this simply in the spirit of honesty.
douglas1102:
<snicker>
You have made many claims of your own, so of course you could make many more — it’s your posting here that shows you care.
(You really are dim, aren’t you?
Either you imagine you really don’t care (heh) or you imagine we’ll buy your claim that you really don’t care.
Both are pretty stupid)
What is a misinterpretation of calling Japan “honorary Western” because they have “good values”?
not only is StevoR a racist, he is also intellectually dishonest.
The points were made in the Thunderdome, by anteprepro I believe (the threadizens will correct me I’m sure), not on some unspecified thread.
And his dishonesty shows again. Instead of addressing the points about his Ehrenarier shit, he just says he hasn’t had the time to read the actual posts that have been made on this thread.
Really? You are a vile human being. Just fuck off, you racist scumbag.
SteveOR, liar, bullshitter, and paranoid Islamophobic bigot
Sorry, your words you post confirm you are a racist. The only way you can demonstrate you aren’t a racist is to shut the fuck up and stop posting here. Period, end of story. So, when are you going away racist pig?
You haven’t refuted a single thing. You’ve just been denying shit, assclown. Refuting requires actual evidence in your favor. So far, I’ve only seen evidence that you, StevoR, are a collossal bigot.
Well, true… But calling yourself not-racist doesn’t make that true either, right?
Wrong, asshole. My view -and I’m guessing that of most people calling you a racist, islamophobic bigot right now-has been entirely informed by what YOU have been spouting. We’ve all had the opportunity to read the vile bigotry you consistently spout. You are a racist. You are an islamophobe. You are an asshole. Now go the fuck away.
And all the racists have ‘lots of black friends’, and all the sexist anti-FtB people have been ‘reading pharyngula for years’. Yeah… Sure…
Also IRL? Really? Here’s the fucking deal, mate, the internet is just as real as meatspace. It’s not a big fucking videogame.
clueless is as clueless does.
If you knew me in real life, you would know I’m actually really really smart and have like three different degrees (molecular biology, astrophysics and linguistics). I’m just not showing it here because you are all beneath me and I try to get down to your level to communicate, like, effectively.
That’s why you should never go by anyone’s words online. They could say, like, stupid or racist stuff or something, but then be like the intelligentest people ever! And have black friends and all.
Jesus Christ, looks like StevoR had a tantrum because he wasn’t the center of attention.
:eyeroll:
Beatrice:
Yeah, in “real life” I’m a rocket surgeon. You betcha.
And I’m still the Queen of Sheba.
Why can’t you people understnd this? StevoR cannot possibly be a racist, because it’s not about skin color to him. People with skin of different shades from his use his RL bathroom all the time. QED.
douglas @304
The rest of your blather was a mishmash of “thinking” you’d apologized but hadn’t, pulling in things I didn’t reference in #282, and trying to weasel out of what you said. Aren’t we supposed to take you on your own words? You VERIFIABLY said “only once” about blockquoting, so what the fuck difference does it make if someone else counted wrong? You VERIFIABLY apply “her” to Nerd and “he” to me without reason and evidence. You’re then not capable of asking yourself what bias–since that’s all it could be–would make you do that.
Let us be clear about the quote in this comment. I’ve told you what I intend to do if evidence arises that Ana Kasparian is being subjected to further creepiness stemming from the comment you think will “open eyes.” It’s my concern for her and does not require your permission, concern, or challenge. Your knowledge of it is all I require. Help you or hurt you will never factor into it.
TL;DR: Get bent around a cactus, douglas.
Chas:
And we all know that whether or not POC are allowed to use your bathroom is the true test of whether or not you’re a bigot. Why, a judge said so!
This is absurd.
“Hey, people from that country over there in the East, you have become, like, so civilized and stuff that you almost don’t look like an Eastern country! I’m so pleased with your accomplishment I will even let you join my club, the West! *pat pat* Aren’t you happy?
… “What do you mean, I’m a condescending bigot? That was a compliment! What do you mean, Ehrenarier? I never said that!”
*headdesk*
Nightjar:
Welcome to the world of StevoR, the Brave Bigot.
Concerning ableist slurs and the like… if refer to someone as a ‘faggot’ or a ‘schizoid’, that’s a specific epithet that hits a specific group. If you refer to them by such a broad term as ‘batshit crazy’, you aren’t referring specifically to any group or anything with the possible exception of Chiroptera feces. If you really can’t go through a world where people use such mean and soul-crushing terms then you have my pity. Please crawl back into bed, pop on a Disney movie, and enjoy your bubble-wrapped world.
Why, yes, indicus; most of us here want to live in a Disney world.
Go put on The Song Of The South.
Indicus:
Aaaaw, poor baby. Did someone try to raise your awareness? Tsk, how awful. You just take yourself off, you fuckwitted dingleberry, and have a nice wallow in smegmarmalade. I’m sure you’ll be feeling better in no time that you’re so superior you don’t have to be aware of lowly others and the fact that you don’t have the intelligence to figure out how to insult without splash damage.
*There, there*
indicus @ 320:
I wonder what group is being targeted by the word “crazy.” (Hint: The answer is in the word.)
I don’t get how doing your personal best to be a more agreeable, careful, tolerant and socially rounded person is so unacceptably verboten for some people.
[Does not understand the issue]
Rev. BDC:
I imagine someone tried to make Indicus think.
Oopsies.
@Janine, I was born in New York. You would mistake me for an Eskimo before you mistook me for a southerner.
Think about it for half a second… if someone is willing to ignore centuries worth of scientific data and experimentation in biology, geology, physics, chemistry, and just about every other field of science out there and completely swallow the biggest fairy tales told to them simply because their invisible friend told them to, do really think they are completely balanced? If someone wants to spend their life picketing someone’s funeral and screaming why they deserved to die, does that REALLY strike you as mentally stable behavior? The absolute best we can say about they is that they are stupid beyond words. Uh oh, that unfairly targets individuals with a learning impairment, doesn’t it? And that is why 99% of internet threads concerning creationists refer to them as lunatics, batshit crazy, etc, etc. Hell, I even have a few in my family. I love them as family, but goddamn are they nuts!
The difference is that I have a thick enough skin to be able to go through life and not find offense at every word uttered in my presence. Half the people I work with are black. They call me Yankee or cracker all the time and I respond back by calling them Johnny Reb. AND NONE OF US GIVE A SHIT!
Here we go.
And of course you’re little anecdote about your particular circle of friends can be extrapolated to the rest of humanity and their experiences.
For g*d’s sake indicus, in that other thread you MADE A JOKE ABOUT STRAITJACKETS. AND FORCIBLE RESTRAINT.
Are you even aware of the history of institutional abuse that those references recall?
THAT was what got the criticism for ableism, NOT anything regarding “batshit crazy”.
I’m just going to drop this here:
:wanders off whistling:
god damn it
your not you’re
You missed the joke, indicus. You just accused us of wanting to live in a PC Disney wonderland. I pointed out a rather racist Disney release. And I am not even touching the anti-semitic shit.
indicus @327:
Black people calling you yankee is not equivalent to a white person calling a black person a racist slur. Guess why?
Your “thick skin” has a particular set of circumstances to thank. Guess what they are?
Rev. BDC @ 328, ohhhh. Thank you. Seems Indicus went full court idiot with the No True Human fallacy.
Janine:
I’m not the least bit surprised, either.
Here is the post from indicus that got the first the critiques:
And the first reply:
And incidus’ first attempt at defending himself:
A joke about forcibly overpowering a resisting individual to put him in a straitjacket, a “common refrain”? And then trying the change the actual subject to “calling people batshit crazy” (which as I recall has been used several times in Pharyngula without anyone taking issue with). And now here he’s only focusing on the second and ignoring the first.
This is telling.
And I will repeat again. No one actually criticized indicus for using the term “batshit crazy”. HE introduced it himself AFTER.
The original criticism was for making a crash joke about forcibly restraining people (ie, assaulting them) with straitjackets.
@Janine, no I got the joke. For some strange reason people instinctively assume I’m a good ‘ol boy just like PZ is constantly accused of being Jewish. Force of habit reaction I guess…
@Last time I checked, ‘cracker’ WAS a slur. The difference is that I can tell the difference between something said in jest and something meant as a slur. Its called a sense of humor. Try developing one.
First point: The Westboro-style fundamentalists fly off the cliff from the normal, warm-hearted Pat Robertson-style batshittery. I would be seriously surprised if there isn’t some sort of unbalance at work there.
Second point: Could a passing reference to straitjackets be insulting to some? Sure. Almost anything can. My larger point is SO THE FUCK WHAT? In the real world we all run into potentially offensive matter every day. There is a difference between making a comment intended to cause offense in someone who doesn’t deserve it and making a widely-said passing comment that isn’t directed at anyone in particular. Rather than look for offense in something and then bitch that the speaker should be more tolerant, why not shrug it off and go on with the rest of your life, assuming you have one?
indicus
If you come to Canada don’t use the word “Eskimo” unless you are referring to the football team.
indicus:
what the fuck
I…just. No. What the fuck?
You realize, indicus, that we do not take kindly to the use of ‘retard’ as an insult either(even if it is, sadly, very common), right, asshat?
MM:
Oh fuck you, you doucheweasel bigot. No wonder you’re so fond of your fallacies and dog whistles.
*spits*
indicus@339:
Was this in response to my #334? If so, here it is again, since you didn’t really address it, with slight modification:
Especially if you’ve ever been forcibly restrained, for your own good.
Even more so if you weren’t actually ‘crazy’ at the time.
We don’t use retard here either. That would be because people who are actually mentally retarded (yeesh, I don’t even like using it like that) cannot help that.
Now, a person can choose to be an idiot or a fuckwit. Much like you, being a willful fuckwit and refusing to use your brain. Poor thing hasn’t gotten any exercise ever, has it?
You are using mental illness as a way to insult someone. You are implying that there is something so wrong with having a mental illness that the comparison is an effective insult. You are using something that a large segment of the population deal with daily as a way to hurt someone else. And you recognize that it can be insulting to a segment of the population yet you still choose to defend your right to use that insult — even though there are thousands of ways to insult people without using gendered, ableist, ageist, sexist, racist terms — because your right to insult me, and millions like me, is more important than creating an atmosphere of acceptance for those who are different. How delightfully egotistical of you.
Chigau:
Memorieeeeees. I’ll just bet Indicus thinks things like that don’t happen nowadays. Nope.
Yeesh.
Indicus, I was not calling you white. I was making fun your your claim of a PC Disney wonderland.
We don’t use sexist slurs like bitch here either, FYI.
Nobody has to go looking for the offensive things you have said, they are quite visible.
We aren’t saying you should be more tolerant, we are saying you need to quit being a shithead.
Tethys:
It’s not about tolerance. It’s about you attempting to turn that dirt clod in your skull into a functioning brain.
So you’re being an asshole for not giving a crap if your words are going to hurt people who already don’t have it easy in their daily lives. So people will call you an asshole because of the huge lack of empathy you display.
Indicus, this isn’t hard to understand. People with mental health problems who are reading/listening really don’t need to see their condition used by you to insult whoever you think deserves to be insulted. People who’ve been forcibly restrained really don’t need to potentially be triggered because you don’t give a damn.
You are a privileged fuckwit, no doubt. What if the “rest of your life” is more of the same fucking bullshit? Kind of makes it hard to “shrug it off and go on” after a while, doesn’t it?
BTW…
It’s called empathy. Try developing some.
What a nice little bubble of a world you live in. Everyone is suppose to be just like you, are they? You heartless, thoughtless douchebag. Try taking into consideration the fact that some insults don’t just sting, they rip into the very center of a person’s identity and inflict devastating emotional and psychological pain. Now if you don’t care, so be it. But don’t expect your going to get any support for such douchebaggery around here.
dogfightwithdogma:
You should write more.
Seconded.
Watching Django Unchained for the umpteenth time I just had to make this image macro: http://imgur.com/3axDNIC
The quip has been in my head since I first saw it and I just had to get it out somehow. Apologies to Spike Lee.
What’s that I hear? A group of people want to be decent human beings and won’t tolerate harmful derogatory slurs(they don’t impact me so what’s the harm hey) in their own corner of the internet? I WON’T LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THIS! D:<
And of course, nothing says clueless asshole like the old “you’re just inventing stuff to be offended about so you should shut up and everything will be okay(for me)” line. It’s utter bullshit.
Re: insults and thick skin
I’m of the opinion that there are some things that are inherently offensive, regardless of whether or not a particular person hearing them takes offense.
Recreant, that’s probably because the semantic slop inherent in natural language allows you to equivocate.
Recreant:
It’s not about offensiveness. At all. It’s about two things: 1) privilege and bias awareness and 2) splash damage.
When decent, humane people accidentally or unintentionally give offence, and are informed of that fact, they APOLOGIZE, the apology if sincere is accepted, the offence is recognized to be unintentional and the issue is over. Dead. Finished. Done.
What decent, humane do NOT do is double down on REFUSING to recognize how and why what they did was offensive to the target.
So the fuck what?
The FUCK that is the what is that you, indicus, ARE A JERK.
And apparently, a WILFULLY IGNORANT JERK.
The difference is that not everyone has such thick skin, and not everyone CAN have such thick skin.
And the biggest difference of all is that you apparently lack the basic human decency to accept and make allowances for that in others.
Caine:
Yes, that’s probably closer to what I meant. I was trying to explain to a colleauge yesterday why they shouldn’t use certain terms and he couldn’t understand why since I wasn’t “offended” by them.
Thanks for that summary. Now I just have to figure out how to explain those concepts to him.
Amphiox @362:
I tried to hint at that with my 334 thusly:
but I don’t think indicus is listening.
I’d say I have a thick skin. I’ve been called about every name in the book, had all manner of nasty things said to or about me, been through 9 kinds of abuse, yada, yada, yada. All that said, it has absolutely nothing to do with my willingness or lack thereof to cause hurt to others, due to privilege and biases I carry about in my head.
It takes awareness and empathy to be a decent human being. I’d rather be a decent human being than have a thick skin or the temerity and blindness to write other human beings off with “grow a thicker skin!” That sort of shit is no different from the whole “grow a pair!” garbage. It’s time to throw it out.
@comraderacistasshole:
I shouldn’t even be giving you the time of the day, but in the book American Apartheid, pages 162-165, the author explains the cultural and sociological separation that creates what you refer to as “poor Verbal IQ” (whatever the fuck that means.)
Paraphrased it’s primarily due to racist fucks like yourself creating a history of oppression and maintaining the underclass, who call African-American Vernacular English (called Black English Vernacular in the book) inferior or indicative of poor verbal skills, and who provide no capability for school children born and raised in the ghetto to better learn without being told their handle of English is ‘wrong.’
So fuck off you racist asshole.
Recreant:
Well, you could try starting with the concept of privilge. These two sites are very helpful:
The Male Privilege Checklist
Excellent explanation of privilege
Once the concept of privilege is understood, it acts as a gateway to further understanding. You might also find it helpful to read this Richard Carrier post, along with all the links in it: The Art of the Insult & The Sin of the Slur
Caine: Thanks again for the info. I tend to inherently grasp concepts, so when it comes to explaining it to others, especially face to face, I often fall short. Hopefully these links will help. I really appreciate it.
Recreant, no problem. You could always print out the ones on privilege and give them to him to read. :D
Caine,
That’s my plan, but I have a feeling I’ll still need to do some explaining. When I told him he was acting like a bigot, he said it wasn’t true because he only has one wife. True story.
Recreant:
Whether that was humor or stupidity, all I can say is uh oh.
Sadly, it wasn’t humor. He actually sat next to me and googled the definition of bigot after i told him that wasn’t what it meant.
:headdesk: You have your work cut out for you. My sympathies.
Comradebob has left then? Aww, pout!
This is the least obnoxious part of all the various obnoxieties in hir drivel but what the hell was the deal with random capitalization? “Natural Aristocracy of Man” and “Seasons”? Srsly? Also, does xe not realize that agriculture has been practiced in sub-Saharan Africa for thousands of years. Does xe think all negroes were hunter-gatherers until enlightened by the white man’s way?
“comradebob” was last seen in the Creationism & Racism thread and the MLK thread.
And mesoamericans as well I would imagine.
First: Good for you and your armchair diagnosis. I’m sure that everyone will be pleased to know that now when someone acts in a shitty disturbing way we can excuse it on their “unbalance” and not worry that they might actually be shitty fucking people.
Second: Good for you for being willing to shrug off the burden of worrying about what effects your actions intentional or not have on others, especially the less fortunate, more vulnerable and least protected members of our society. That must make you a very popular guy are your tough act club house. And bonus points for not not giving into the information giving to you concerning the actual harm it does to people whether you intended it or not.
You are a real stand up person and should be proud of your brave stance in the face of all this information.
tpyos lives
Rev. BDC:
Which didn’t diminish your message in the least. That was a damn good post, Rev.
“You should be proud of your brave stance in the face of all this information.”
would make a dandy t-shirt :):):)
12
jnorris
January 22, 2013 at 3:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I bet all the members of these right-wingnut terrorists groups are sorry the report doesn’t award points for how dangerous and batshit crazy they are.
Ya’ll got another one
keresthanatos #381
????
Wrong thread?
keresthanatos, it’s generally helpful to provide an actual link. While “batshit crazy” is still too common, it doesn’t quite get to the level of strait jackets are in order. I’ve always found jnorris to be very reasonable and I doubt they’d react the same as Indicus over a correction.
**navigation status: crossthreadual merge. standard protocols apply.**
Greenwood @ NYTimes thread::
Hey. Asshole. You asserted (about me) X & Y, I denied it and requested you “explain and link or apologize,” and in reply you simply assert X, Y, and Z? Without linking, explaining, or apologizing? Fuck you. Please stop lying about me. And fuck you.
Here are your claims:
I deny it. Please link one example or retract and apologize.
*shrug* ‘obnoxious’ is entirely subjective, but nevertheless:
I deny it. Please link one example or retract and apologize.
I deny it. Please link one example or retract and apologize.
yeah, that’s usually when I don’t want to have to teach Animal Behavior 101 to a bunch of North-campus types who don’t think it’s relevant anyway. With regard specifically to discussion of rape and rape culture:
I deny it. Please link one example or retract and apologize.
Nah. No “rape apologia” has occurred here, not my me, and not by PaulW. The wagon-circling thing was not directed at “comments of rape victims,” you dishonest fuck, it was, instead, about the response to PaulW’s probing at the conventional casting of the widest possible interpretation of ‘victim-blaming’. But this is the very subject that I have forsworn.
I deny it. Please link one example or retract and apologize.
wtf, man? Occasionally I toss a comment into a large and ongoing discussion. I don’t buy a (very) few of the ideas that get promulgated around here. I am trying to talk about ideas, not me. If you can’t see that, fuck you.
With this I will wholeheartedly agree.
And so I am going to ask you again to please stop lying about me, and to apologize for the lies about me you have already posted.
So, sometimes one reads news stories and just knows something is wrong.
‘Booby-trapped’ cannabis crops found in bushland
(What I’ve learned: when police are winched, cannabis plants’ value doubles!)
@JM #385 Obviously those numbers seem a bit inconsistent but as someone with a bit of knowledge in this field neither set seems unlikely (I’m pretty sure your “dollars” are worth roughly the same as our real ones these days but I admit to being rather ignorant about the antipodean cannabis economy). Yield per plant can vary alot from strain to strain and growing conditions have a major impact as well. Honestly the estimated street value is way more conservative than the numbers I see in the press here, or my own evelope back for that matter.
Hypothetically speaking of course on the west coast a pound of primo bud might fetch up to five grand at a dispensary, and a large outdoor plant can easily produce that much, plus a couple pounds of mid grade “popcorn” bud and a lot of trim that can be used to make hash or other extracts. Once you factor in the labor required to prepare it all for sale 1-2K per plant seems just about right actually.
@318. Nightjar :
Yes it is. An absurd strawperson of me in fact that overlooks what I actually said and substitutes its own non-reality in its place.
I have never said that Eastern civilisations aren’t civilised or that Japan doesn’t have it’s own culture which I enjoy and respect as much as anyone.
The West isn’t “mine” or a “club”. I am a Westerner and I do hold and support Western values but that doesn’t mean I run or own the West or get to say whose in the club or out.
What determines what is counted as Western or not?
For me it’s a shared set of values, (pro-science, capitalist, pro-feminist, pro-environment, shared agreement on human rights etc .. ) economic and cultural commonalities and geopolitical military and diplomatic alliances. For instance the ANZAC alliance between Australia, the United States of America and New Zealand – and the nations that are allied to the USA and to some degree or other depend on its military for protection such as Australia and, yes, Japan. The West is basically the Allies from the two World Wars and the Cold War (where, note, Japan was on our side) plus a few others.
I’ll concede that exact definitions of the West vary based on the different criteria and viewpoints with some definitions including Japan and others not doing so. Note there that I am far from the only person using the term in this broader sense. Eg. Toynbee from wikipedia :
Japan has been exceptionally strongly influenced by the West, is politically allied to it and shares many Western values. Are any of you here seriously going to argue this reality or claim it as a bad thing?
To say a nation that has Westernised and become a part of the West broadly defined – is a statement of fact not of racism just as saying a nation has industrialised or modernised is a fact and not racist. Race for those who still don’t get it pertains directly to skin colour and the rather silly notion that separate human races of varying intellects and capabilities even exist and that race is a determining factor in how people ought to be treated.
Do you honestly think Japanese people find it offensive to be described as broadly Western, allied to and politically part of the Western block? I don’t think so. They have after all gone to enormous trouble over the centuries to Westernise themselves as well as Industrialising and modernising their society. Have you not heard about the Meiji era or its post WWII occupation?
See :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westernisation#Asia
Anecdata but when I was in Okayama the karaoke TVs all had images from New York even for the
Japanese songs.
Yes it was. It was meant as a compliment and should have been taken as such. Why do some here always try to interpret things in the worst possible way and read stuff into things that just aren’t there?
Saying Japan has Westernised is also a statement of a positive fact. Just like saying that Japan is an industrlaised nation and a member of Western alliance, an OECD member, a G8 member, a US diplomatic ally etc ..
Why? It is a simple fact that I have never said the word ‘Ehrenarier’ here – I don’t know what the hell that word supposedly means so either it’s a doozy of a typo I missed or you are confusing me with someone else.
That’s assuming of course that the plants were ready to harvest. Which doesn’t seem likely based on my admittedly limited understanding of your odd version of “seasons.”
Oh good, StevoR is at it again.
StevoR, I guess in your game you’re the masochist pining for more punishment for doing the nasty. That’s all fine and dandy, but we are not your willing partners.
Shut the fuck up.
Alright, look, Stevie, baby. Obviously you don’t like the word racist. Could you at least agree to “chauvinist warmonger?”
@312. Caine, Fleur du mal +
22 January 2013 at 11:55 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
No tantrum but am I naturally, justifiably upset and angry that people here are lying about me and saying I’m some sort of horrible person when I’m not.
@315. ChasCPeterson
Yes. That is quite true.
I get the feeling that could possibly have been intended as irony somehow but I don’t know how given the alternative scenario of not letting people of all “races” use my bathroom and what that would imply!
@308. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
For example? Evidence? Oh wait you haven’t got any examples or evidence of that have you? Fuck you can’t even get my username spelt right so clearly you don’t know what you’re talking about. You are factually wrong in literally every detail of your abusive lying bullying comment there.
Never Nerd you lying bully and hypocrite.
Don’t like it. Tough. Start your own blog and participate there only if you can’t handle perspectives and people that disagree with your own.
You have no control over me or any other commenters here except yourself and I have to wonder about that.
You obviously missed my comment #291 here :
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/20/thunderdome-15/comment-page-1/#comment-542198
Bullies and abuse like yours Nerd.
You won’t bully me off here so don’t bother trying. The more you do, the more determined I am to stay and not let you win.
You, nerd, are a bully and a lying and a disgusting person.
PS. I’ll have more responses for others later – incl. to stuff on the previous TD thread which I haven’t read yet – maybe tomorrow, maybe earlier depending.
@389. dysomniak, darwinian socialist :
Hey , if you want this discussion to end you and some of the others here who have also lied about and abused me could always face reality, admit you got it wrong and apologise to me then we could move on.
I just offered a compromise.
If you agree that you are in fact a warmongering chauvinist then I promise to never again use such an imprecise term as “racist” to describe you.
StevoR
I don’t believe you.
I don’t believe that you believe that Japanese people would find your description of them as ‘Western’ is an honor.
I don’t believe that you think a three-piece-suit makes someone Western.
バタくさい
I approve of the term ‘warmongering chauvinist’.
StevoR, would you kindly get the 8 ton building repeatedly dropped on your head: you are not wanted here. Go Away.
Chigau:
Yes, it has flair. That said, it’s too good for StevoR, who is the garden variety of racist scum.
Weed Monkey:
QFMFT.
Caine
“racist”
Weeell. I’m not so sure.
Japan is Western™.
So when they strip to their (Japanese-style) undies and carry shrines through the streets of Tokyo, are they still white?
oops. Did I say ‘white’?
I meant Western™, of course.
Chigau:
Hmmm. Possibly, given that their furrin, brown religion[s] doesn’t seem to be so terribly threatening for some reason, so yes, I suppose that automagically makes them all tidy and white.
@ StevoR
Asseblief my kleinbasie, can I also be an honorary “Westerner”?
…
Oh, and what Weed Monkey said.
This is why I like “chauvinist.” Much less ambiguous.
theophontes
You stumped googletranslate!
Asseblief my kleinbasie
=
Writ axes ing my little Baas
I wonder if Indicus realizes, given their beliefs about guns, that the whole “unbalanced, batshit crazy, someone needs to put you in a strait jacket” crap could be applied to them, by their own standards.
That one believes a lot of bad, stupid shit.
@ chigau
Afrikaans:
Asseblief = Please
my = my
kleinbasie = little + diminutive of boss
…
The son (or immediate underling) of a boss is a “kleinbaas”. (It can also be used as a term of derision for someone who derives their power from someone else. It often refers to the son of a farmer who, however young, acts as if he where the boss. But it can also be used as a term of endearment (this last is not what I had in mind.)
The term “baasschap” has Apartheid era connotations, where the power of the white bosses was not to be questioned.
Time for a short rat break.
Oh, Chester & Theo are on the bed with me, continually distracting me from my book. They race up and down the bed, jump up on my shoulders, then down, waiting on me to play…scritchy fingers are coming to get you! I chase with the scritchy fingers, get them, they roll over and grab my fingers while getting belly scritches, then they leap up, Chester dives under the covers to be chased by scritchy fingers while Theo pounces on scritchy fingers from on top of the covers. Lather, rinse, repeat. They are my clown princes and they make me laugh and love life.
X-posted.
Like virtual parent like virtual rodent…. :)
To clarify what I *actually* think for those who may be confused :
1. I do NOT believe in racism. Instead I oppose racism and think there is absolutely no scientific validity to the notion of “race” at all. We are all humans, third species of chimpanzee, stardust given mind and voice, organic bags made mostly of water and carbon on a pale blue dot against the Black.
2. I do NOT advocate genocide; I oppose it and think that those who wish to attempt genocide should be prevented from committing it.
3. I am NOT a bigot. I oppose all forms of bigotry – misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, ableism & anti-Semitism, etc.. are all unacceptable, unfounded in reason and unethical.
4. I want all organised religions to disappear and the sooner the better. There’s probably no god, goddesses, gods and / or spirits.* I wish there was Karma and Justice but, hey, reality is what it is. Religion poisons almost everything.
5. I believe in live and let live & personal freedom and choice up to the point where those choices harm others. Your freedom to swing your fist stops at my nose.**
6. I believe in co-operation. kindness, and consideration of others and the environment one lives in. When we have a choice of making other peoples lives better or worse I think we do best to make others lives better unless we have very good reason to do otherwise.
7. I don’t want war. War sucks and results in terrible human and environmental suffering. I do, however, acknowledge the reality that war is sometimes necessary as the lesser evil to prevent even worse harm and suffering to fellow humans.
8. I do NOT wish to see nuclear or other WMDs used again. Ever. If it can possibly be avoided then it *should* be avoided. That goes for their potential usage against Iran, Israel, North Korea , the USA, Gaza-Hamas, Australia and everywhere else. I will admit I’ve said a few silly things in attempted jest or high emotion in the past to the contrary on this point and I now regret and apologise for that. I will never again advocate – even jokingly – the nuking or use of any WMDs against anyone.
9. I want the world to be a better place and I want my presence in the world and here to make things better not worse. I wish more people acted to that end, I try to do so; but admit I sometimes fail in this and other regards.
10. To quote John Stewart (‘twas ‘im weren’t it?) I may disagree with you but I am NOT Hitler. Only that Adolf Hitler was actually y’know, *that* Adolf Hitler. I’m a fallible human being who has fucked up at times and knows it – and so too are those who are arguing with me. None of us are perfect and none of us, I suspect, haven’t at times said things and been people we haven’t later regretted. All of us can learn and grow and make positive contributions in the future if we are given the chance to do so.
Bullying others is always wrong however much you dislike them.
That’s what I, StevoR one fallible, fucked up human individual, really think whatever the strawpeople caricatures of others may claim to the contrary.
‘k? Shalom? Salaam? Peace?
PS. Belated Happy Martin Luther King day. I think Martin Luther King was one of the greatest ever Americans. Same too applies for Muhammad Ali and Benjamin Banneker. (See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Banneker if you haven’t already heard of him.)
PPS. No, I haven’t yet read all those comments, so many of them, so little time. I get overwhelmed. But I will respond if folks want and ask me too. (& yeah, sometimes even if not.) No, that’s not “intellectually dishonest” but quite the reverse. I’m not some strange atemporal creature – is anyone? -and so, yeah, it takes me time to read and respond to stuff. I’ll get around to it, ‘k?
* Outside of the purely alcoholic variety which, yes, I’ve got a weakness for.
** This applies to Muslims too. Leave me alone and I’m happy to reciprocate. I’ve no argument with the vast majority of Muslims who pose me no threat, I just object to those who conduct Jihad against the rest of us. Same applies for extremist Christians and other religions. I might think your beliefs are silly and your prophets foul but leave me in peace and I’m happy for you to choose to believe as wish.
I’m not leaving Pharyngula. I’m not being bullied off.
I like this blog, respect many of the commenters and want to keep commenting here.
If any of y’all have any ideas of what I can do to demonstrate to y’all I’m not the bigoted strawperson monster that some here very wrongly think I am; then I’d be delighted to hear them and would seriously consider what y’have to say. Advice please?
(Besides leaving obviously.)
You’re like a Klansman asking for advice for appearing more friendly while still burning crosses.
Fuck you, shut the fuck up, and stay the fuck away from me.
NO. You demonstrate the depth of your ugliness and the vileness of your bigotry with every fucking word you write, then you start this self pitying crap. NO.
Did you get the full import of Weed Monkey’s previous post? We are not willing partners – you are forcing yourself on us. You are not wanted. GO AWAY.
*sigh*
No, you said:
If you can’t see how condescending you sound there, I’m afraid I can’t help you. Seriously, “a compliment to them and how their culture has evolved”? No one needs or wants your fucking approval. I’m pleased enough with your culture’s evolution so I’m declaring you a honorary Western? How clueless does one have to be to not realise how condescending that sounds?
And why the fuck do those values have to be so tied to the West? So much that when you discover that traditionally Eastern countries share them too you go on to declare them honorary Westerns, instead of simply acknowledging that upholding such values has nothing to do with being Western or Eastern?
On that comment I linked to you also said:
So, Western = Good. Eastern =…. have to strive much harder to reach that status?
And this isn’t problematic, how exactly? I mean, you may not want to imply it. I’m not calling you a bigot or a racist right now, I’m telling you to think about how your words are going to be perceived and to be more careful how you use them.
Oh, you don’t know what it means?
Go google it. And don’t come back whining about Godwin’s Law. Do some self-reflection and ask yourself what you’re doing wrong that made pelamun thought of that word.
There is nothing StevoR can do to redeem himself in my view. The very few first times saw him spewing his racist crap I still gave him some benefit of the doubt (in my political activities I usually first try to do that), but that has long disappeared. I’m glad to see that many here share that view.
Even if he genuinely regretted and apologised, that wouldn’t un-say the words he’s made. After such a long history of bigotry, you can just deny it out of existence. He is not a new commenter who came here with questionable views and after reforming those went on to be a respected regular, but he has shown himself consistently to be a bigoted racist. And he is still deliberately obtuse about it.
Nightjar,
to be fair, it was Theophontes, who from his South African experience came up with the word, but I of course fully share Theo’s view here.
Pelamun:
He has never regretted it, however, he has tried the notpology route many times now, claiming his drunkenness was at fault, so pity him, he’s fallible, so pity him, “what can I do [to make you guys like me and accept me], pity me, on and on and on. He’s pulled it *again*, just a few posts supra.
As for those vaunted “Western values”, such as pro-feminism, here’s a lovely bit of high-minded, Western pro-feminism:
Yeah, those “Western values” are just grand, aren’t they? *spits*
pelamun,
Noted.
***
Caine,
:)
How is Giles doing?
(I asked on Rattitude but you probably didn’t see it yet.)
Nightjar:
No, I didn’t see it. Giles is doing fabulous. Lately, the rats have decided the studio annex, where I sleep, is a wonderful place and enjoy keeping me company in bed. It took a while, but Giles has happily joined the “oooh, let’s go jump on the bed!” crew. He was just in a while ago, pestering me about the tin of Bag Balm, trying to steal it. (They are fanatical about the stuff – it’s mostly lanolin.) Giles is now curled up in a corner the rats have claimed as theirs, with three girls piled on top of him. He’s a happy guy.
Yawn, Islamophobic bigot is back lying, lying some more, and adding to his body of lies and bullshit. It doesn’t have the decency to shut the fuck up. But then, introspection, honesty, and integrity are foreign concepts to bigots.
Fuck off bigot. Spew your toxins elsewhere.
*brings in industrial grade disinfectants*
I wanted to ignore StevoR. I did quite well for a while. But Weed Monkey put it great about us being non-willing participants. I want to ignore StevoR, but his racism can’t be ignored since he’s pushing it under our noses constantly.
Re: Western Values:
If according to SteveoR, the following are Western Values:
Why the hell is the US in the list?
Beatrice:
Same here. However, that doesn’t work unless everyone is doing it. Also, as you point out, we can’t let the racism slide.
StevoR, if you wish to redeem yourself in our eyes, you have to go away for an extended time. Five years sounds good. No interaction with Pharyngula at all. Although, given the memories of the the folks here, your lies, bullshit, and bigotry will still be remembered. And when you come back, you have to explain why you were wrong and apologize for your bigotry in detail, acknowledging your bigotry and chauvinism.
And I’ll answer my question:
It’s because Western = White.
[South African]
I feel a bit left out. StevoR still hasn’t confirmed that I can join the “Western club”. Am I being snubbed here?
…
Groucho Marx’s letter of resignation to the Friars’ Club:
Kat Lorraine:
I had the exact same thought. The U.S. is a pit anymore. Hardly an example of such high ideals.
Theophontes:
Well, that depends. Have you been all washed clean and white?
Adding to theophontes’ question about South Africa:
What about Russia?
I would love to see an answer from StevoR to both these questions.
@ Caine
Hey, give me a break, I just got home from work…
Beatrice:
I wouldn’t.
Caine,
“love to” was probably the wrong word choice. It’s more “will roll my eyes and possibly start laughing a horrified laugh when I read the answer even though I suspected it”.
I would love if he left. Unfortunately, short of a bannination, I’m not expecting that any more. (shifty look in PZ’s direction, because really)
@ Beatrice
Hey,good point. Perhaps I could get in via the “Hong Kong route”! As a former colony of Japan, it is sorta “Western” by the definition given.
Anyway, there are lots of Japanese restaurants. And even more restaurants styled “Western Restaurants”. There are Russians here too. There is even a Russian restaurant up the road from us.
That’s Western right? I’d hate to get my hopes up, just to find I’m merely “cosmopolitan” …
Beatrice, I meant I wouldn’t in the sense that I don’t want to read one more fucking word written by StevoRacist. I just want him to leave.
Adds hairy eyeball in PZ’s direction, because really. After all, he asked us all about whether or not Raj Kumar should meet the banhammer…
Ahhh yes a new day. Sun is shining, the neighbors are watering their lawn in 35° F weather, the Lotus Notes servers at work are behaving like they know I’m getting ready to leave for the Dominican Republic on Sunday so they are crashing, I made coffee in the work coffee machine and neglected to put the pot under the brewing device aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand StevoR is still unable to grasp that his words have meaning.
Life is good.
Rev, you’re going to the Dominican Republic? Why for and how long?
I did that yesterday. Fun, ennit?
Leaving on Sunday coming back on Friday!
And yes the coffee thing, awesome. I do it about twice a year on days when I’m busy as shit just to make my level of headassploding that much higher.
Oh and why
One of my best friend’s 40th. He and a bunch of buddies who live[d] in Telluride together are going down. Both his and my wife can’t make it for prior commitments which kinda sucks but I bet we’ll find a way to have fun. His sister is a really good friend too and she’s coming with her husband.
And of course being the only IT guy in my company of 300+ employees and 14 locations everyone here is kinda freaking out. I’ve never taken a vacation here that they weren’t able to easily get in touch with me.
This week has been interesting.
That sounds like all kinds of fun, Rev!
I sense an opportunity here. Perhaps you should “lose” your phone and just never be in your hotel. :D
Rev,
Eat lots of (traditional) Dominican food and tell us all about it later.
There is a food blog I read, with traditional recipes of Dominican Republic. I’m hungry just thinking about it.
Oh, and have fun!
I plan on it…. if I can escape from all the worried grasping hands here at the office.
I think I saw the CEO with some chains and a pad lock sneaking into the office today.
*reads back*
…And yes, I really did have Muslim friends, I’ve hung out with a whole park full of Muslims (they’d rented the place to celebrate the end of Ramadan, I think) and I didn’t find that the least bit incredible or unthinkable.
Unlike some.
Weird association time. I first heard of, and learned about Ramadan when I was around 9 years old from reading King of the Wind by Marguerite Henry.
So long as StevoR continues to insist he is not a bigot/racist, so long as he continues to lie and delude himself, he cannot be redeemed.
Because he was and is. His words, freely chosen, were and are.
No apology is adequate or even meaningful without first honest admission of the transgression.
Even the Catholics require you to confess your sins before being forgiven.
Hey Caine, so did I!
Pteryxx:
Sweet. :D
…it doesn’t speak much to my little-kid cultural diversity that I assigned ‘Ramadan’ the exact same significance as ‘white spot on off hind foot’, but hey, it was a start. (Also I’ve never read King of the Wind as an adult, but I get the feeling it was less racist than my Christian-fundie books about bringing white-man-medicine-God’s-word to the dirty ignorant heathen tribes. Maybe we should recommend it to StevoR?)
I remember being fascinated, so I begged for a trip to the library so I could inquire about Ramadan and Morocco. I came away with a stack of books, but I don’t remember what they were now. I remember King of the Wind fairly well, and for a book written in 1949, it was rather pointed about casual, accepted racism and treatment of those considered ‘other’.
Fuck, I wish I still had it, I’d read it again right now.
TO GOOGLE BOOKS! /away!
Caine: also when you’re done with that Manhood book, check this out:
Also see here for excerpts: http://jackholland.net/prejudice.php
From theoreticalgrrl’s comment at Ophelia’s:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/01/why-so-fussed/#comment-434653
Okay, I’m back, and I’m focusing purely on the Intelligent Design part, so that I can try and stay on one topic as opposed to the multitude I was guilty of bringing up last time. So here’s Part 1 of my response to various comments:
I am not relying on any Christian apologets source for this. What I rely on is the work done by John Barrow and Frank Tipler in their book “The Anthropic Cosmological Principle”. You’re welcome to pick that book up and read it, but here is a summary statement I put together from the book that explains this:
Frank Tipler is a professor of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University and John Barrow is a professor of Astronomy at Sussex. They are both well-respected scientists and are not writing as Christians, but as scientists.
In their book “The Anthropic Cosmological Principle” (pp. 562-564), they note the vast improbability of life developing anywhere in the universe. They list 10 crucial ingredients that must be present for life to develop. Interestingly, each of these are so improbable and would take so much time to develop through blind evolutionary processes alone that before they occurred (and we’re talking each of these processes independently…not all 10 of them happening together), our sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth!
Here are the 10 steps (EACH OF WHICH is highly improbable):
1. The development of the DNA-based genetic code
2. The invention of aerobic respiration
3. The invention of glucose fermentation to pyruvic acid
4. The origin of autotropic photosynthesis
5. The origin of mitochondria
6. The formation of the centriole/kinetosome/undulipodia complex
7. The evolution of an eye precursor
8. The development of endoskeleton
9. The development of chordates
10. The evolution of Homo Sapiens in the chordate lineage
That is what I’m referring to. But it’s more than just not having the answers. It’s this untenable faith commitment that life can spring from non-life. Every attempt at an explanation has failed. Every experiment (even the Miller-Urey experiment) has not met the necessary standard. Couple this with the fact that we DO have reasonable answers when reasoning to the origin of life from the existence of a necessary being that is himself the first cause, though He is uncaused (he exists by the necessity of his own being) and you have a good reason to doubt naturalistic explanations.
This is the problem. Your view requires FAR more faith than I’m able to muster. You leverage a naturalism of the gaps (a true argument from ignorance) to reach your conclusions. You conclude that even though we have no explanation (and no hope for an explanation) for how life spontaneously appeared from non-life, it MUST be a natural explanation. So you’ve conveniently wedged “unknown natural cause” into that gap. I can’t leverage ‘gaps’ arguments and I can’t argue from ignorance. I don’t have enough faith to do that.
Then let me help you…we don’t say “they can’t explain the origin of life, so God must have done it”. No, we have positive arguments for God’s existence, which are scientific, logical and philosophical in origin. And with this evidence we are able to use that evidence to conclude that God is the best explanation for everything. Thus, we don’t rely on your lack of ability to get the answer. We rely on our evidence to conclude that God is the source of everything. We just recognize that abiogenesis is a profound gap that you guys can’t cross (and will never be able to cross, in my view).
I agree completely. This is why you should stop saying that evolution (without the guidance of an intelligence) is a decided fact. It isn’t. And when you claim it is, you’re arguing from ignorance.
Let me offer an analogy on this.
Suppose that you decide you’re going to study the origin of rain. And before you get started, you determine that rain cannot come from clouds (because maybe you don’t believe in clouds, or whatever). You spend a significant amount of time and get some tantalizing details (rain comes down, not up…it tends to occur when there is thunder and wind…the ground is typically wet during a rainstorm, etc.). And you say “we’re closing in on the source! Look how much we know about rain!”
Suppose then that I come to you and say “sure, you’ve got some interesting data. But it does not explain the source of rain. And it never will because you reject the idea that rain comes from clouds.” Your response is “you are just arguing from ignorance when you say that since I haven’t proven the source of rain, it must be clouds.”
I then proceed to offer you the evidence that rain does come from clouds (to demonstrate that I’m not arguing from ignorance, but have good reasons to believe rain comes from clouds).
This is what’s happening here. You’ve got some interesting information. But you’ll never explain the origin of life because you reject the source of the origin of life. And I don’t say that as an argument from ignorance. I have the evidence which leads me to the conclusion that God is the source of all things. This is why I believe. It’s a deductive conclusion. Yours, however (the belief that life sprang into being purely through natural means) IS an argument from ignorance, and it’s a ‘gaps’ argument as I’ve already explained.
Read that again.
And again.
Really, read that again.
No christian apologetic yet Frank J. Tipler wrote a book called The Physics of Christianity.
annejones
What does “probability” mean?
Jesus, Anne. You’re way down the rabbit hole. Do you think this is anything that hasn’t been said five million times before? Do you have any idea how thoroughly and soundly that “reasoning” has been debunked, and for how many decades?
I don’t know you well enough to know whether you’re motivated by a deep emotional attachment to the idea of a creator god, or whether you honestly believe you’re thinking analytically. But it’s sad either way.
Read more widely.
Okay, and here’s Part 2
I actually agree with this statement, Jon. ID is a good discipline and it has given us some very interesting information. I believe a designer is behind everything, but I agree with you that some people try to do more with it than is justified by the science. And I also agree that knowing there is an intelligent designer does not mean it’s the God of scripture.
Having said that, there are certain things we can know about the designer just from observing the design (and I’m using ‘He’ here for convenience):
– He exists
– He is immaterial and timeless (because material and time are part of the creation)
– He is quite powerful
– He is incredibly intelligence
– He is a creator that values order
– He is interested in being known by His creations
– He is not dependant on the universe (in other words, He is not a component of His creation)
There are other things we could deduce, but this gives you a sense of it. We certainly can’t know everything about the creator from knowing that He exists and created all things. But there are certain things we can know for sure.
I don’t think that’s what they do, and I don’t think it falls prey to the trap you’ve set. I think people like Stephen Meyer would say that things like cells demonstrate design and from this we can infer a designer (this is certainly the view I take). For me Paley’s watch argument is quite convincing. I know that there has been an attempt by atheists to discredit it, but no one will ever be able to convince me that someone stumbling upon a watch lying in the grass (even for someone who was unfamiliar with watches and time-keeping) would not lead them to conclude that someone designed the watch. It’s simply never going to happen no matter how many times that scenario plays out.
Carl Sagan even proved my point for me in his book ‘Contact’. In there, Elle determined that radio signals from outer space had an intelligent origin because they were transmitted in a specified pattern (prime numbers). So she heard the information, recognized the pattern, understood design, and concluded a designer.
She didn’t fall into your trap (though she certainly was an advocate of ID when it came to those signals) and the ID movement doesn’t either, in my view.
I’ll agree with you that some take ID and use it to say “the God of scripture is real” without any additional reasoning. But it’s not wrong to take the findings of science and conclude there is a designer of some sort. And that’s all this argument is intended to do…lead to the conclusion of a designer.
They really aren’t. Partially because they don’t do what you claim they do.
I think you’ve attacked a straw man.
One thing I don’t do is simply go silent or try to change the subject. I am interested primarily in truth. I will follow it where it leads. Thus far, the quest for truth has led me to conclude that God exists, that Jesus lived and taught and died and rose again, and that the Christian worldview is true.
@Anne:
Dear gods, probability does not work that way! You’re not looking at one person rolling one die a billion times trying to come up with a specific sequence of events. You’re looking at a billion people rollion a billion dice a billion times! These events did not occur in isolation:
Besides that, THIS does not equal the 10 crucial ingredients for life. This is a list of the 10 crucial ingredients for humans. There is likely some planet somewhere else in the entire vast, VAST, VAST universe where some species exist without an endoskeleton, or without eyes, or without a DNA code, or without aerobic respiration. You and all the other god botherers see life and think “people” but life can mean something completely foreign to us.
The anthropic principle is a stupid, stupid way to look at the universe cause you’re in the universe! If the universe wasn’t such that we weren’t here, then we wouldn’t be here to wonder why the universe isn’t such that we exist. Some other type of life might surely exist and wonder why the universe is such that they exist, and not some other kind of life form. Savvy?
name a single factual discovery ID has made
ONE
Pteryxx:
Wow, thank you! I will check that out right away.
I see that Anne Jones has not bothered to answer Cubist at her own blog.
Does anyone really want to have this brain-dead discussion?
Again?
I mean, Paley’s watch?
Paley’s watch a convincing argument? Oh boy.
You essentially are. Show us your imaginary deity/designer really exists with solid and conclusive physical evidence, not mental wanking. You need to provide conclusive physical evidence for your imaginary deity. Evidence that will pass muster with scientists, magicians, and professional debunkers, as being of divine, and not natural (scientifically explained), origin. Somethink like the eternally burning bush. Tell us where to find it.
Your mental wanking about the anthropomorphic principal doesn’t qualify, as science does have explanations, which you ignore. And the probability of life as we know it somewhere in the universe is 1. Low probability is meaningless with a large number of suns and planets to overcome your inane probabilities.
Try again with real evidence. Leave the philosophy about your imaginary deity where it belongs, in the sewer, with the rest of the Xian apologetics.
I see that annejones is siting Carl Sagan yet she still lives in a demon haunted world.
Classic cherry picker.
no I really don’t want to talk to another arrogant scientific illiterate
Which you are Anne. When it comes to science you can’t tell rabbit turds from rice crispys but you still moronically talk down to people who have specialized on the subject
better challenge. Find me an atheist eho has accepted ID while maintaining atheism. find me one who has been convinced by the scientific merits
Anne Jones, you conveniently ran away, and I know you hope to avoid the responses you received last time (answering questions, so tough, eh?), however, I’d like an answer to mine, which can be found in the previous thread:
Annejones also does not seem aware that our bodies are not intelligently designed. A head that is too big to get through the pelvic bone? Nerves that goes from the brain, around the heart before it goes back to the head? Knees? The structural weakness in males that allows for the genitalia to be held out of the torso but leaves males open to hernias?
And a whole lot more.
Intelligence, my ass. Our bodies are kluges.
wait AJ wants kuddos for being a bad Christian and ignoring God’s law?
Um no
Not to mention backbones that are actually not very well adapted at walking upright. The human body, and that of most vertebrates actually, is a pretty piss-poor job if it was intelligently designed. That designer must have been one incompetent arse.
Pteryxx! Went to B&N and bought Misogyny, downloading to my nook now. Thank you. ♥
Pentatomid:
Pick me! Pick me! My spine is doing its damnedest to disintegrate on me, one vertebrae at a time. If we’re designed, it was by a dull witted stump of a fuckwit.
Hey annejones #451,
Careful with your sporadic capitalization efforts there. Wouldn’t want to burn in Hell forever because you forgot to properly capitalize God’s pronouns, now would you?
A few years ago, my back gave out. For a couple of months, I had to work myself up just to be able to stand up. There were times, when lying down, I could not roll over. There were nights, when I laid down, I could not get up and had to sleep with the lights and my TV on.
I gave thanks for my intelligently designed back.
Caine:
I taught King of the Wind for below-grade 8th graders. Maps for Morocco, France, England, and Canada (the first chapter for the match race between Man o’ War and Sir Barton). Ramadan, Quakers, Catholicism for the French monarchy, the Church of England. Even Newgate Gaol and Dick Whittington’s cat! I got tired of a number of other novels we were assigned to teach. But so much in King of the Wind that the kids had never heard of kept it fresh.
Athyco:
And Wicken Fen! I *loved* that book.
A bit late, but:
Why don’t we ask the Ainu, the Ryukyuans (Okinawans), the Taiwanese, the Koreans, the Manchurians, most of Southeast Asia, various South Seas island communities, and the like how much they appreciated it when Japan adopted the “fundamentally good” Western values of large-scale empire building, colonization, social Darwinism, and forced assimilation?
Not true. The vast majority of vertebrates are fishes, for which the design is both completely appropriate and highly refined.
What “information” has it given us?
And how do you verify it?
HE is also quite obviously male.
And Anne is positive of that. She can only provide some philosophical arguments but she surely has personally inspected his genitals*…
*not intended to be gender-essentialist.
anne jones:
Somebody actually wrote down that list – as a sequence of events that had to happen?
That’s incredibly stupid. You should take note of the authors’ names and never read anything by them ever again, because they are either idiots or liars.
annejones,
And yet, it did.
If they do, you didn’t list them. Those things you listed aren’t “ingredients that must be present for life to develop”, they’re things that evolved after life developed. All of them.
You will need more than an argument from incredulity to establish that. Saying “OMG I cannot possibly imagine how that evolved!” is not an argument. Do you understand why?
There is a lot to be said and lot you could learn about the evolution of each one of them, but really, you can go do that on your own. Or pick one that really intrigues you and we can try to discuss it. But ten? Sorry, I have better things to do.
Define “life”. Trust me, this is important. It’s also very tricky, but I’m hoping that in your attempt to do so you will understand that there’s a continuum between life and non-life, so getting life from non-life doesn’t sound so mysterious any more.
For… convenience? Please explain.
***
Katherine Lorraine,
Not even that! Humans don’t do number #4 in that list.
I guess it’s a list of… random things that the authors find puzzling. Or something. Now that I think about it, what are a “professor of Mathematical Physics” and a “professor of Astronomy” doing telling biologists and biochemists that those ten things are highly improbable and couldn’t have evolved? Ever wondered about that, annejones?
annejones:
So much for the finely-tuned for life claim, then. :)
Well then, if you hold life cannot come from non-life, then your god must be alive.
But since your god is alive, its life must have come from something else that was alive.
(What living thing made your god?)
That’s because you don’t question your faith in the supernatural, and thus discount it as faith.
(I don’t need faith in the natural; there it is all around me!)
Saying “goddidit” ain’t an explanation.
Saying how god did it would be, if it didn’t boil down to “it made a miracle”.
(Also, what specific scientific, logical and philosophical positive arguments lead you to believe that your god merits the male pronoun?)
Stupid analogy; if clouds were invisible you might have a point.
You haven’t explained it either, you’ve just said a magical being poofed it into existence.
Bah.
Stupid analogy indeed.
First, no one determined that life cannot come from an invisible supernatural being before they got started. We merely concluded that it is an unparsimonious non-hypothesis after analysing it.
Second, clouds aren’t invisible supernatural beings that show no sign of existing and aren’t even well defined.
Third… do I really have to point out that you have not done the equivalent to this?
Apparently, Nightjar, saying “Oh yeah, I’ve got loads of evidence” is the same as actually presenting it.
Afterthought: Or does he/she mean “offered” in the sense of “I offered Bob some wine when he came over,” to mean “I mentioned to Bob that there was wine in my fridge but made no move to actually go get it.”
How do you know that? Which specific observations are supposed to support this?
How do you know that? (Feel free to keep repeating that yourself as we go on.)
How so? More powerful than what? Is he bigger than a breadbox? How about his genitals?
What would it even mean to say there’s something “powerful” which is immaterial and non-temporal? We observe material stuff exerting forces on other material over some amount of time. That’s actually what our observations are, of any bit of this purported “design,” and there are none of immaterial non-temporal “powers” floating about (nowhere, presumably) being “powerful” in some undefined way. Why do you think that is?
By “incredibly,” you must mean unbelievably rather than amazingly, because I have no idea how an immaterial non-temporal whatchamacallit is supposed to be intelligent. How about you stop groveling and lavishing praise on your cosmic buddy Jesus for a second, so you could try telling us something useful? (You’re not talking to him right now. Remember?) Does he know everything there is to know or only everything he could know? If the latter (the only option that would make sense), what sorts of things is he unintelligent about? If you can’t at least say something about that, then why say he’s “incredibly intelligent” at all? What good is it?
Then why is entropy increasing? Did he get bored performing miracles? Or is he more incompetent in his old timeless age? Or maybe he doesn’t value his creation as much anymore? Or what? (I mean, besides a god not existing, obviously, those are the only options that pop into my head.)
What makes you think you know he has interests? Explain that and how that could work, then we’ll get to whether and how you know what at least one of his interests is. That’s also after we know we’re dealing with your specific god, give or take a Jesus, a Satan and who knows what else.
So, according to you, why does a god exist? (Would there need to be another god to make him, and another, etc.?) Was existing one of his many interests? Was it the intelligent thing to do? Was he powerful enough while non-existent (which, oddly, seems to be the same “while” as it is for the existent-and-timeless version) to make himself exist? Is it because there just had to be someone to make the things-he-hadn’t-yet-made orderly (then more and more disorderly) — and that’s the reason why a god exists?
Looks to me like you haven’t “deduced” shit. Start over without a god, then see if one is actually needed anywhere along the way, to do anything other than preach at people about nonsense. (Hint: it won’t be.)
One more thing,
Tell me, annejones, how up to date are you with abiogenesis research to make those assertions with such confidence? What were the last papers you read on prebiotic chemistry research? Seriously, name a few. I mean, the way you talk about it, the way you say there is “no hope for an explanation”… surely you wouldn’t be pontificating on it like that if you weren’t very familiar with field, right?
Well, I’m sure it is awfully convenient to be a Christian, compared to any other kind of goddist. You don’t even need to read the dusty old book everyone wants you to thump. Just thump it, say “Jesus” now and then, hate “sinners” of some kind or another (possibly including yourself), and you’re in.
Not only is the human body not intelligently designed, the whole bloody planet is a botched job. Earthquakes, God? Really? That’s your idea of a good design feature? You’re either incompetent or a sadist. Or non-existent.
None of those events are necessary for life. In fact, there are lifeforms today that don’t follow one, several or all of those steps. The exception is step 1, but that’s only because RNA-based viruses straddle the definition of “life”.
Besides, this is a classic error of probability, confounding the probability of a specific sequence of events with the probability of any sequence. If you don’t get a full house, that doesn’t mean you’ll end up with no cards on your hand. If life didn’t evolve to be us, it would be something else.
vaiyt, you’re dealing with someone who adduces multiple claims some of which are mutually-contradictory*.
—
* The universe is finely-tuned for life but life is impossible in it unless magicked into existence.
This one is funny:
annejones’s penis-bearing deity needed well over ten billion years to achieve that tenth step, she admits.
Thus
(A yet more powerful penis-bearer might have managed it in, I dunno, maybe a few days? ;) )
That definition of “life” gets even more broken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion
Awww, c’mon now. That radioactive heating of the mantle thing stopped us from turning into the moon.
It’s K-Ar fine tuning.
In other news, the local foxes have decided now is the time to mate. Noisy nights are here again.
Prions are nothing like “life”.
*gives out free swill, grog, and popcornz to today’s posters.*
Chas, “nothing like”?
(They do replicate, in the right environment)
annejones:
But not powerful enough to prevent puny humans from kicking him out of the classroom. That’s why he allowed the Newtown massacre.
Fuck your evil god.
I’d rather take Zeus.
Zeus heretic??? I’d rather take *throws 3,000 sided dice*…