Laci Green always looks so cheerful.
(Episode CCCI: Is Breitbart drunk, or always this stupid?.)
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Laci Green always looks so cheerful.
(Episode CCCI: Is Breitbart drunk, or always this stupid?.)
If it seems like I’m laughing, it’s more a defense mechanism to avoid crying, or making my wall holey. No laughing occurred.
—
On the radio last weekend (thought it was NPR ATC Sunday but can’t find the story there), the host interviewed the president of Focus on the
FictionFamily. He talked about how he totally understood gays and how he sympathized with their inability to marry, and then blamed his book for being why he was against it. Doctrine trumps empathy. I imagined putting my fist through the radio. It didn’t help.Giliell:
Around here, most of the rabbits which are hunted are hunted by raptors, and that is one nasty, vicious death.
Caine, I am afraid that you will get a very bitter laugh from this.
pelamum
Probably it does. ‘raound here such remarks aren’t embedded anyhow, we’re a clan of atheists, all such remarks are simply tossed out because the adults seem to feel the need not to say “he’s dead and gone”.
I am indeed very much against lying to children. I don’t put up an elaborate charade for Santa or the Easter bunny. We’re making belief.
Why should I consciously implant a false idea into their heads?
Caine:
How…enlightening. I hate the stench of asshats in the morning.
Giliell,
that’s I guess a question of differing parenting styles. Some want to protect their children, at least at a very young age, from certain harsh realities. Another example would be job issues, serious diseases etc. I can see arguments for either way.
But anyway, I never saw the altar thing with an emphasis on an imaginary place called heaven, but rather as a place where you could go to remember your family member, and “speak to them”.
I do think “he/she’s in heaven” was more like a euphemism for the “dirty” word “he/she died”, at least that’s how I remember it.
Cracked hits another home run, on EULAs:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19683_6-terrifying-user-agreements-youve-probably-accepted.html
For instance, re OnStar:
—
From Boingboing: documentary in progress about children whose parents rendered them to offshore militarized disciplinary camps.
Kidnapped for Christ
pelamun
The problem with serious issues is that they’re serious issues. I can’t hide the fact that their Nana (my mum’s cousin) has lung cancer and is seriously ill. I don’t tell them “she has lung-cancer which is a serious dissease with a high mortality rate”, I try to find words that describe the scenario.
Children are remarkably quick at picking up things, they notice when something is wrong. And if you don’t tell them, if you shield them, they often come up with the wildest ideas, often including fear that they are what’s wrong.
I think the intention is noble, but I think it’s counterproductive.
It’s like adoptive parents who hold back that information for “until they’re old enough to handle it”. Psychologists strongly discourage that, because it only adds to the problem.
I also have seen the effect of an “unintentional” lie on my daughter. My grandpa died in hospital, but it was a it of a “the hypochondriac in room 19 has died”. He’d been there several times, as well as my two grandmas. Hospital stays aren’t a rar occurence in over 80 yo. So, when grandpa went to the hospital, we assured her that he’d be back with us in no time, just like all the other times. It didn’t happen and from that day on the word “hospital” was a taboo. And you could feel the sense of betrayal. We hurt her, we lied to her, even though technically we didn’t, since we were all as shocked and surprised as she was.
A spot of pharyngulation here would be nice: open for the next 3 hours.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/blogs/the-party-line/should-samesex-marriage-be-legalised-in-australia-and-why-20120215-1t51l.html#poll
I think the Xians have bombed it; 44% against isn’t the usual Age reader results.
The world sucks, so I’m retreating into cooking.
I’m gleeful because I got fresh curry leaves from a local store, and for super cheap. It’s been there for close to a year, but I hadn’t really gotten a chance to go explore it before. I love south Indian food but have always been scared to try to make it, but with this new store and the nice people who run it, I’m getting braver. I got a chicken curry recipe from a BBC podcast with Sanjeev Kapoor, and thanks to the store I now have all the ingredients. Tonight shall be curry experimentation time (after we clean up from the burrito dinner made with spouse’s awesome homemade refried beans). I’m not sure what I’m going to do with all the curry leaves, though – the recipe only calls for 10 leaves, and I have a huge hunk he took from the main bag. If it works maybe I can make extra sauce and freeze it.
Senator Orrin Hatch, being a mormon, Republican politician and therefore somewhat brain damaged, made a statement about Planned Parenthood’s activities consisting of about 95% performing abortions.
Now there’s a relatively recent record of another politician claiming that 97% of what Planned Parenthood does is abortions. Said doofus was called on the carpet, and his staff had to issue a disclaimer to the effect that his comments were meant to be factual statements.
Turns out Planned Parenthood’s activities comprise about 97% non-abortion stuff, and about 3% abortion. But Orrin stepped into the rabbit hole anyway.
These guys are lying to the public. Proof:
Link.
Oh, that sounds horrible. Thank you for the image, I suppose… I’ll go scrub my brain now.
In Australia, the ecology has been shot to hell since white settlement. Introduced species are devastating to many native species. Killing them seems to be an ecologically good choice – but this does usually mean that rabbits will die, very much more horrifically than if hunted, from myxomatosis or calicivirus.
Of course, some are still hunted by other introduced species like foxes and feral cats, or by local birds of prey. Control is very difficult; it’s like the old lady who swallowed the fly. In one area recently, a colony of feral cats was killed off – and the rabbit population boomed massively. And sometimes killing off the rabbits causes a boom in introduced invasive plant species like blackberry. Oops. And don’t even mention the cane toads.
Carlie
Maybe you can process them with oil and freeze in an ice-cube tray?
That’s what I like to do with surplus herbs. They come in handy for all kinds of cooking.
Ah, talking about childhood memories, today my kids brought one back to me I’m happy they’ll miss: They dug up some of my old toys and amongst them a plushie I hadn’t seen in years. I’d been giving that particular one when I was sick in bed with measles. I’m sooooo glad they’ll miss out on that.
Rethuglicans might learn to make half sense if they didn’t keep getting the words in their mouths direct from each others’ asses.
I miss when fact-checking was a thing.
It was probably a bad thing for me to skip all my classes today in order to sleep for twelve hours. On the other hand, I feel better right now than I have in weeks, aside from the slight caffeine headache. I dunno.
SC @307):
I’m jumping ahead, and no doubt missing much salient conversation, but…
But that’s not what was going on. People were not saying (though some may incidentally believe it to be true) that the moral standing of an animal depends on a human’s specific feelings toward it; instead, we were talking about the fact that one person’s reaction to a particular comment depended on that person’s specific feelings toward an animal.
No, the conversation was one in which some people were talking about hunting rabbits and others were talking about rabbits as pets (and IIRC, some were talking about both of those subjects), essentially without upset, until one person directly juxtaposed those two subjects in an especially graphic way, and seemingly with reference to a specific person’s beloved pet.
You might have wanted to make it a conversation about how people treat animals, and that might be a perfectly cromulent conversation to have… but what was actually going on here last night was a conversation about how people treat people… and specifically how the folks in this little community treat each other[1]. In that context, your contribution was a derail.
And, I might add, one in which, at various times, you appeared to be equating husbands, fathers, and pet owners with racists and slaveholders. Not that I think you meant to be saying that, but the fact that you appeared to be points up that you weren’t making your clearest or best arguments.
I grok that your philosophy is similar to that of Singer… but nobody here is obliged to agree with you, or Singer, or even to read Singer, in order to participate in the discussion.
***
[1] No, the term each other doesn’t not, in common usage, translate to “every being of moral worth in the entire universe”; saying “each other” in relation to a limited group doesn’t inherently constitute a moral negation of those not in the group.
From Natalie:
link to comment
Pteryxx,
Physioproffe made me laugh. Hard.
Classical Cipher: Sleep is seriously, seriously underrated. It makes us healthier, more alert, more intelligent, and better at learning. …In fact I may go take a nap.
Yeah! Those things are all true. And there’s also something to be said for just skipping classes – I mean, granted, I still feel rather guilty about it, but now it’s over and I can’t go back and change it – because there can be something really calming and nice about remembering that actually you’re in control of things. Also, now I don’t have to calm myself back down from being out before I can start working, and I also feel like I have done important relaxing (by sleeping and “taking a break”, which I haven’t allowed myself to intentionally do for a really long time now) and am less stressed out.
I say, enjoy your naps. I get very tired of the subtle pressure to devote every single possible second of existence to ‘being productive’, whatever that may or may not mean.
In this society, we’ve allowed the overachiever to set the pace, and since employers are greedy like garbage-dump bears, that means now EVERYONE is pressured to be an overachiever.
And I say, if everyone resisted the urge to constantly throw food to the bears, those bears would have to either face facts or starve.
The same goes for greedy employers.
Giliell,
In general I agree with you, as soon as possible one should be honest, but in the case of younger children, try to “soften the blow”. I personally wouldn’t use words like “heaven” probably, even not metaphorically, but I wanted to point out that I never perceived it like a lie in my own personal experience.
(The suggestion that hunting is preferable to factory farming would be valid if I were suggesting that as an alternative. I’m suggesting as an alternative that people not eat meat unless it’s necessary for survival or their only option.)
Then we do have a very fundamental disagreement. Because I think “I spear bunnies with sticks because it brings me pleasure” is about the least morally defensible circumstance I can imagine. That is exactly how TLC has described his hunting for many months. Kill, kill, kill. It’s like the character Arlo Guthrie fakes in Alice’s Restaurant came to life.
(I’m not responding to him because I think he’s a little…off.) TLC is right: I can’t stop him from hunting. I can’t stop him from talking about it here frequently, either. But if this thread is going to be a place where people who find that enjoyable and their comments fit right in, people cheerfully discuss The Joys of Killing Small Animals with Sticks (and think it’s fine since the animals can’t read the thread) and how the joy-killers might find mates who share their pleasure, I’m proud to vehemently object and to say it isn’t a place I belong.
He’s wrong. It isn’t an instinct. He is not in fact a cat or dog. And it sure as hell isn’t a badge of honor. It’s awful. It’s been awful since that thread months ago where he talked about how it made him sick that there were restrictions on killing Canadian geese – “the stupid things.” Back then there was pushback. Now people generally ignore it or join in, even though they know what he’s about. It’s awful.
The Mormon apologist is getting a a bit old. How about a sniny new model?
Humans are morally the same as animals. Except when they aren’t, and you expect us to act like we’re somehow ‘above the cycle’.
Fuck you. I am an animal, not a sacred being created in the image of some god, and like any other animal, I hunt for food. It’s nice you’re willing to get up on your high-horse yet again to paint me up as your favorite flavor of psychopath, completely misrepresent everything I’m about, and then refuse to engage me directly while still talking about me.
It’s nice that you think I’m a little ‘off’ even when I don’t talk about hunting. I guess you missed the part where I mentioned I have asperger’s syndrome. I only mentioned it like, a dozen times last week.
I’ve also watched with interest how you’re willing to throw fathers, pet owners, and actual people in this thread under the bus and compare them to slaveowners and racists in order to make your stupid little point.
Guess what, Salty Current, carnivorous and omnivorous animals eat other animals. If that hurts your widdle feefees, well I’m sorry but take it up with billions of years of evolution, not me.
SC, I hope you know I would genuinely miss you. But I don’t know how you can take this position and not object with the same vehemence to people talking about the joys of preparing and eating meat, since our position involves just as much the death of the animal, but also very frequently involves a great deal more suffering on the animal’s part. (My apologies to those people who are careful about where their meat comes from.) I feel like your objection to the discussion of hunting is based on its vividness and the fact that it doesn’t bury the death involved in the realm of implication, and I don’t think that’s a moral consideration that makes sense.
Oh yeah, you’re also all AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL people for not rejecting me as hard as SC has done. How dare you all accept me as a person.
New disgusting recipe!
Rabbit and Pork Terrine
The rabbit is quartered and simmered with a mirepoix for two and a half hours and shredded. It’s then replaced by some pork belly and a couple of pork chops which are also simmered for two hours. The stock is then reduce with some rosemary and the clarified using eggswhites, parsley, and leek before being strained through some muslin with the addition of a few teaspoons of gelatin. The kidneys and liver are cooked in rabbit fat and brandy and then chopped up finely.
Reheat the meat in a pan with the pistachio nuts in a pan, then pack in a wrap lined bread tin with boiled leek greens on the bottom for decoration. Fill with the aspic and then place a parchment wrapped board on top. Chill overnight.
I emailed… not that I think it will do any good in the end, but I hope I’m not the only one.
If I ever look at another blob of aspic as long as I live, it’ll be too soon. Blech.
*caught up!*
They are?! They’re not in the UK. Here they’re room-temperature in the middle of the shop.
—
theophontes:
I fear there is a contradiction here. If they are basic rights, why do they only obtain at 6,575 days old, and not at 6,574? One needs a legal framework with arbitrary distinctions to establish this, right?
SC, first off I really appreciate that you’re sticking with this and clarifying your position. I’m not brushing any of this discussion off.
I concur; we have a very fundamental disagreement. I also think you’re misrepresenting TLC’s position as being solely about personal pleasure – if hunting’s defensible AT ALL, for ecological or economic reasons, or even if it’s neutral, then it’s still better that the hunter enjoy the process than feel miserable about it. But that’s going far afield, and again we have a fundamental disagreement because I presume you discount all the other arguments he and others have made.
I haven’t hunted, but I can say I have killed lots of small animals with my own hands, I don’t particularly mind it, and I WILL talk about it if the situation warrants. But by the same token, I mention it cautiously because some individuals and communities object. I mostly don’t mention sports here, either. But people in this community do manage to talk about very contentious topics, even personal ones.
SC, everyone: Ableism is OK when she feels morally righteous enough.
Seriously SC, fuck you. This is the point where I’m done telling you I don’t want you to leave. Even though I know you’re not really gonna do it.
That person had not reacted with outrage to the discussion of killing any other rabbits for pleasure. Her “suffering” consisted of someone making a wry comment about doing exactly the same thing to one specific bunny that people had happily and for some time talked about actually doing to other bunnies.
And I had a problem with that. It wasn’t a derail to suggest that I have a problem with people being accepting of talking about really killing and cooking real rabbits for pleasure and going into convulsions of outrage that someone made a joke about eating another person’s pet rabbit.
No, I was talking about the nature of the arguments. I’m saying that not objecting to the killing and eating of rabbits, or to the discussion of the fun of that, except when they’re loved by a human makes it entirely about human suffering. This is wrong. It’s equivalent to saying that it’s OK to call women cunts, but not acceptable to call someone’s daughter or wife a cunt because it upsets him. There has to be an indication that this offense or pain is additional and secondary. There has to be an indication that the marginalized group of humans or species has moral standing independent of their individual relationship to members of the dominant group or to dominant humans. What appears to be the case is that (as several comments from this afternoon show) people recognize that this is a discussion about the joys of killing, and also know that no one involved is talking about eating them out of necessity, but they find that acceptable. So the rabbits really do have no independent moral standing, or so little that it’s not important enough for them to object to a chat about actually spearing and cooking them for fun when the alleged suffering caused by John’s joke is roundly commented on. As I said, given that this appears to be the case, I don’t think I can feel comfortable in this environment.
I never said they did. Several people were asking me about my views on animal rights which I did not feel like spending hours elaborating. If people genuinely want to know them, then that’s the best place.
SC
That was really fucking low and shitty to do.
Fuck you too.
I’m sorry TLC =(
Thanks, Just_A_Lurker.
The pleasure you take in hunting and killing and your obsession with violence is not a fucking disability.
Let me assure you that my decision will not be based on your wishes.
But this is not a dichotomy between absolutes of joy and necessity. Even “joy of killing” isn’t correct – the enjoyable part is hunting. Or in my case, caretaking. Knowing that I’m going to euthanize animals doesn’t poison all of animal research for me, and the act of killing them isn’t fun.
SC:
You’re the one that’s off, and not by a little.
Santorum sells…but who’s buying?
If the Tibetans and Bhutanese were strict vegetarians, they’d starve. There’s not much grain can grown on yak pastures. Even the Buddhists eat meat there. Much the same can be said of many Australian Aboriginal tribal groups, especially the desert-dwellers. Also, I believe, this applies to Canadian and Alaskan indigenous cultures too.
Australia could not possibly convert the vast majority of its grazing land to grain or vegetables. Water may fall from the skies, but in highly inadequate quantities most of the time in those places, and in highly irregular patterns that are very unsuited to European style agriculture. And even if you could get the water without destroying the river systems, huge tracts of cotton, soy, corn etc are very ecologically destructive.
Pasture also supports many varieties of small fauna that would be wiped out in cropland. (Roos are better here than cattle, too, as cattle tend to crush small animal burrows. Way less than ploughing, but still.) Arguably, eating meat might even kill fewer animals than eating grain – do you kill 1 roo, or 5,000 mice and rats for your protein? The numbers are certainly debatable, but at any rate it is crystal clear that grain production does NOT mean not killing animals. And it tends to wipe out the natives, and favour the introduced pest species. Fewer hopping mice, more brown rats.
Sure, the US meat industry is horrific and wasteful. That doesn’t mean that all meat in all circumstances is wrong.
SC
So what the fact that I eat meat and find it enjoyable is offensive to you? Why don’t you go all gun fucking ho on everyone else here who enjoys it. There’s a fucking bacon meme here. Uncomfortable with that? Or are you a fuckface that only picks on him because he’s hands on?
Okay, seriously cut the shit. You seriously are portraying like he’s a goddamn psychopath.Like he can’t control his rage and takes it out by torturing animals.
Do me a fucking favor will you? Put me in your goddamn killfile or ignore list right along with him.
Classical Cipher
This
On a more cheerful note, the reason I linked to Magda Szubanski’s coming out video earlier is that I think she’s going to be making a very similar impression on Australia as Ellen De Generes in the US. She’s a much loved comedian and, apparently, a genuinely nice person. More here.
I don’t care either way. Go or stay. I don’t fucking care anymore.
I do know this from experience: People who threaten to leave an online community, are usually hoping to get a stream of “NOOOO PLEASE DON’T GO I’LL MISS U! :*(,” rather than actually signal any intention to leave. People who actually leave online communities, usually just stop posting.
You smugly tell me what I do or do not ‘need’ to do and decide, no matter how many times I explain otherwise, that I’m just some sadist who gets a boner from killing. Paint me up as bad as you want, just so you can feel like you’ve won a stupid little argument. I’m sure all the bunnies are most thankful to you, their savior and deliverer.
And yes, calling me ‘a little off’ was fucking ableist and I don’t accept it. Especially when it’s just your convenient excuse to talk ABOUT me, as if I’m not right fucking here able to read everything you say.
Warning for disturbing hypothetical:
If I had a friend who decided to raise a rabbit in their household for food, became attached to it, and realized when the time came that they couldn’t stand to kill and butcher it themselves, but still were committed to eating it and made that clear to me when asking, I would be willing to do the killing and butchering for that person. The butchering part, I’d even enjoy; but I wouldn’t enthusiastically describe it to them.
But if someone raised a rabbit for food and talked to me about how much fun actually killing it would be, I’d get angry.
Killing animals isn’t some irresistable happy fun time like fundies think of gay sex or abortion. It’s AT BEST unpleasant and slightly sad. But it’s necessary to kill an animal in order to eat it (or dissect it) without it suffering.
Thank you Pteryxx. I don’t enjoy the actual ‘kill’ part, at all. Everything else I love, but actually ending something’s life? It’s not fun. It’s a heavy thing. There is no life without death, and I’d go so far as to say there’s no death without life.
Oops I mean RAAWWWRRR BLOOD MURDER DEATH KILLKILLKILLKILLKILLKILL!!!!!
Alethea:
The US meat industry is a clusterfuck, to be sure, thanks to megacorp agribusinesses.
I’m glad I live in a place where I can easily avoid supporting the clusterfuck. We go co-op on beef every year, buying 1/4 of a cow which was grass fed and bred locally, get chicken from the Hutterites, etc. We hunt pheasant once a year. Mister used to fish quite a bit, but there just hasn’t been time for it these days.
Dave Mustaine of Megadeath (and formally Metallica) endorsing Santorum.
First: wait WHAT
Second: oh, right Dave Mustaine.
I like the comment wondering if Metallica can kick him out again.
Not that I ever had any respect for Dave aside from the sounds he tailored during the eighties, but damn, that will colour my listening.
And can I pull fan boy for a sec? Megadeth
He kills animals because he enjoys it. He’s talked repeatedly about his enjoyment of it. Nor was there any non-pleasure justification of it being made, or any real discussion of the necessity of causing any avoidable suffering to rabbits. In any case, any justifications would be very specific to circumstances, and by no means cover all of the instances of rabbit-spearing people were talking about. But yes, I do have a problem with people talking about killing rabbits for pleasure even if it isn’t the sole reason.
I disagree with this completely.
He’s made far too many comments about how much he enjoys killing for me to believe any ecological or economic reason, even if one could be offered in any very specific case, is anything other than a pretense. Same goes for his attempts to claim respect for nonhuman animals, which he’s tried with one species shortly after referring to them as “those stupid things.”
He brings up killing and his enjoyment of it very frequently, under pretty much any circumstances. Again, people don’t seem to have a problem with this, or with chatting with him about killing when he’s made it clear how much he enjoys it and how little moral consideration he has for the animals he hunts.
Well, we have to draw a line somewhere in terms of the sorts of people we want to be associated with. I wouldn’t be sticking around here if one of the ERVites started hanging out saying misogynistic things and people chatted with him about women.
Oh I should have known janine would have that before me.
Caine: This beef co-op system you mention intrigues me. I shall surely look into local versions.
In the interior places where we camp and hunt, it’s pretty common to see cattle being free-ranged in the pine forests and meadows. If I squint my eyes JUUUUUUST right, I can imagine that it’s the pleistocene and what I’m looking at are wild Aurochs. I love BC sometimes.
Chimpy, did you miss my joke?
(I will admit that it helps to know the title of that Megadeth album.)
you are so very correct.
my bad
Janine,
I have to admit I skipped your link because it said Santorum and followed Rev’s because it said Dave Mustaine. The things I could have done…
Oh no, I got the joke I just posted before I saw your post
I’m just as bad as MRA’s and people who make date rape jokes, and you all accepting me as a person is the same as defending misogyny. SC is very disappointed that I haven’t been offered any dead porcupines lately, because SC has a very clear idea of what kind of people should and shouldn’t be welcome on Pharyngula.
This of course justifies ableism, dismissal, and outright strawmanning. As well as flat out lying about what I’ve said.
Guess what, I was wrong about several aspects of the geese discussion. You even convinced me of a few of them. I thought I admitted that at the time, but clearly this isn’t good enough for SC.
TLC:
It’s definitely worth looking into. Around here*, you can buy all sorts of farm goods through a similar system– meats, eggs, vegetables, fruit, whatever.
One of my friends went in with the rest of his family and bought an entire pig. Not only did they get every single possible cut of meat, they got pork sausages, too. The pig had been raised on a local farm (and not factory farmed) and butchered locally, too.
*Upstate NY
SC: I’m trying not to speak for TLC because he’s right here. As far as I know I’m the only other person commenting who’s killed animals with my own hands; and I’d hazard I’ve killed a hell of a lot more than he has.
As for this:
I’ve worked in several animal research labs. If I were working in a lab right now, and people here were interested in such things, I’d frequently be talking about how the last batch of surgeries or behavioral tests went, or how much I was looking forward to analysis of brain slices from animals I’d handled earlier that day. Killing is a necessary incidental to performing certain kinds of research. It’s not an end in itself, it doesn’t overwhelm any other moral justification (unless you want to debate that too), and killing isn’t the reason that research exists. If you started telling me I only enjoy doing animal research because I’m a bloodthirsty monster who just enjoys ending small lives with my hands, you’d be full of horseshit. That’s like accusing someone of becoming a chef just so they could boil lobsters. It’s ridiculous.
It’s clear that FOR YOU, the death of an animal wipes out all other considerations. Disagreeing with you doesn’t make me, or TLC, inhuman monsters.
Audely: Imagine the Aspic possibilities of an entire cow!
TLC:
It’s a casual arrangement, no big deal. It can be difficult to get ranchers to switch to grass fed, rather than taking the calves away before they are weaned and shipping them off to cattle lots, which most people know are miserable, filthy places.
Grass fed cows take an extra couple of years to develop muscle which is suitable for butchering and eating. So, the ranchers willing to do it can use all the support they can get.
Around here, it’s generally friends or family who decide to go in on a cow, each person getting x amount of various cuts. We go in with 3 other friends and get a nice assortment of beef each year. We don’t eat a ton of meat, so it’s more than enough for us. We also know a couple of people who go half and half on a cow, they eat more as they have large families.
Price depends on how much you want and who you’re dealing with in regard to the cow. Compared to grocery prices, though, it’s a major savings and the quality of the beef can’t be compared.
As it stands, there aren’t enough ranches/farms going against the stream right now, but the more support they get, the more will see. Polyface is a great example of how it should be done – Eric Ripert did an ep with them: http://www.hulu.com/watch/199788/avec-eric-farm-to-table
That’s awesome, Dr. Audley. I’m told factory-farmed pork is virtually tasteless compared to eating a pig that’s actually seen the sun and eaten green food.
SC, in the absence of agreement on whether it is morally permissible to kill animals for reasons other than necessity, your position on how we should treat TLC due to his hunting is going to continue to appear flimsy and unjustified. I get that you don’t want to have the argument about animal rights right now (good gods neither do I), but you’re proceeding in a way that assumes we already agree with you about it. If we don’t already agree with you that it’s morally indefensible to kill and eat animals in the absence of necessity, why on earth would you expect us be angry that somebody talks about doing so?
nope
Probably shouldn’t look to heavy metal for progressive politics.
From the thread I linked to above alone:
“Well, the law can kiss the brownest part of my white ass. If I get an opportunity to predate on a canada goose, that goose is cooked. Laws of nature.”
“We are animals just like any other, and I happen to be an animal with very developed predatory instincts. It’s not pretty, I admit. One of the many reasons I don’t think I’ll ever fully fit into society.”
“As for the happiness of a given non human carnivore, well, since we’re in agreement there’s no fundamental difference between humans and other animals, then I’ll just assume that the things I have in common with other animals that make me happy probably make them happy too- a successful hunt, a full belly, a good lay, maybe win a fight or three. You know, the basics.”
He fucking loves this stuff, and it’s not at all reasonable for anyone to think that I was talking about Asperger’s when I said he’s off, especially after his “you’ll pry my stick from my cold, dead hands, you fascist” rant above. He thinks of himself as a predator, enjoys it, delights in talking about it every opportunity he gets, and even gets a sense of self-righteousness from it (other humans don’t have or aren’t as in touch with their “predatory instincts” as he is, etc.). It’s fucked up and rather scary. I don’t want to argue with someone like this, especially when he’s already made that argument about using violence as he did above.
Re beef co-ops: One of the best things about rural Texas (almost makes up for the shitty Internet) is that I’m surrounded by family farms. There’s even a family butcher shop and slaughterhouse about 40 minutes away. I think I’ve used up the steaks I bought that were from cows who lived their whole lives a few miles from my house, but the ones in my freezer now were custom-cut for me from someone’s cow brought in from the surrounding farmland. Their prices are the same as reputable grocery stores, too (not Wal-Mart). (Still, I save up for months for this.)
A. R:
*Homer drool!*
Seriously, I saw the recipe earlier and damn. Thanks for posting it!
TLC:
I had some of the sausage from Sparky* and OMG it was gooooood!
And in a completely unrelated to everything note: I just found out that in the next RE game, you will be able to back up with your gun drawn. Fuck yeah! I’ve been waiting for that development for fucking years now.
*Yes, they named the pig.
Audley:
Farming states and communities have their advantages. :D We get our eggs from the Muddy Creek Saloon, they collect eggs from the locals and box them up. It’s always nice, seeing what you end up with – a mix of chicken and duck eggs. I get kind of weirded out seeing uniform white eggs at the market, I’ve gotten used to getting a dozen eggs which include white, brown, speckled, green and blue, from tiny to huge.
Nah, but Mustaine makes a good punching bag. He’s a tool’s tool.
Agreed – but another reason small farms struggle, especially meat animal farms, is that state and federal regulations are designed (and often written by) giant meatpacking and feedlot megacorporations. Most places ban small slaughterhouses or have overly stringent requirements (such as dedicated bathrooms for FDA inspectors… srsly?) so many would-be small farmers can’t legally have their meat production certified for sale. Co-ops are one answer to this – in a co-op, you’re a co-OWNER of the cow, so technically there’s no sale of meat involved.
Anyway, whoever gets interested in local meat or co-ops, keep an eye on local zoning laws and be ready to pressure cities and states for regulations favorable to independent farmers.
TLC,
Lets not commit too strongly to the naturalistic fallacy. Animals do a lot of things, I think we should pick and choose.
We have a good localvore movement in Charleston. Our various farmer’s markets a full of local producers that you can set up supply relationships with. It’s a great thing. Fresh veg, meat, artisan breads, pasta, dairy, eggs, seafood etc..
Rey Fox,
Hey now. Slayer is why I started posting here.
“Pry it from my cold dead hands” implies exactly what I meant it to: You’ll have to kill me to stop me. It has nothing to do with me performing violence on anyone.
But why am I even responding? You’re not interested in anything but painting me up as your favorite boogeyman. Not only have you compared me to a misogynist and rape apologist (and in so doing, subtly compared victims of misogyny to nonhuman animals… I’m sure they all appreciate that), you’re trying to subtly imply that I’m ‘threatening’ now?
SC, you are an ableist, dishonest, cowardly bag of shit, and I’ve concluded that there’s no accusation you won’t throw, and no group of allies you won’t step over and toss under the bus, in order to win your stupid arguments. It’s not like I haven’t seen you do this to other people, albeit with less vehemence.
Rev. BDC:
We just got an artisan bread thing going around here, it’s fantastic! Geez, *real* bread, it’s so good. You hardly need the farmer’s markets when it comes to veg, most everyone here has a healthy garden and veg gets given and traded all over the place.
In theory, here in Chilliwack would be a great place to get a localvore thing going on. We got corn up to our ‘ears’ and a shitload of dairy farms, as well as people who do goats and sheep and ducks and geese on a small scale.
I’m really gonna have to do some research, I suppose.
Artisan bread: I’ve actually been making artisan bread for a few years now and it’s quite fun. I’m thinking about building a brick oven in the near future.
SC, bullshit. I don’t read anything you quoted from TLC as being violent, threatening, and especially not self-righteous – where the frick did that come from? That’d require implying other people are somehow lesser for being different. Seriously, you sound like a fundie slamming gay folks or atheists for daring to say they exist. “Predator” doesn’t automatically mean “crazed bloodthirsty dangerous killer who kills for the joy of it” even among animals.
I’d be perfectly willing to talk about how much I enjoy cardiac perfusions if I thought it would accomplish anything here. (Hint: It’s not because I get to kill things.)
TLC:
There’s probably already a lot of co-op stuff going on, at least informally. It pays to talk with people and if nothing has been started, start it yourself! Most people are seriously into the benefits of co-op, farmer’s markets and other localvore happenings.
Caine:
http://www.slowfoodvancouver.com/
This is what I got so far… it’s a start, no? though Vancouver might be a bit too far from the Fraser Valley.
FWIW, my experience of TLC here has been that he’s even-keeled, considerate and interesting. Nothing he has ever said seemed “off” to me.
My experience of SC on the other hand is that xie goes off on hobbyhorses like this.
Also, to add to Pteryxx saying that it’s the hunting that’s fun. Yes, it is. I hunt with a camera all the time and hunting is fun, satisfying and it takes considerable skill. If someone does that and comes home with a meal instead of photos*, that’s fine with me.
*Although, the photos, in my case, get traded for money, which gets used for food among other things.
TLC:
A place to start would be to look for farmer’s markets in the area.
I haven’t gotten in on the co-op thing (yet), but I have bought awesome stuff right from farmers: grass fed beef, locally grown herbs, wildflower honey, peaches and apples…
Crap. Now I’m hungry again.
yep
TLC:
Yep, that’s a start. It’s really worth talking to people locally and getting something started, if there isn’t anything in place already.
TLC: whoops, I found this earlier and forgot to post it –
Source
SC – trying to avoid being in this conversation, but your refusal to address TLC directly and thereby treating him as a thing is extremely irritating , unfair to him, and reeks of condescension. Disagree with what he does or says all you want, but accept that he is another life form worthy of at least the minimum of manners/respect.
Frankly, you appear to be being an ass. OK, I am an ass at times and have been in the past, most likely will be again in the future. Right before I took my last hiatus I was unnecessarily insulting to Algernon*. I decided to take a break. Best decision I could have made.
And I will tell myself to fuck off right after I post this, so save the electrons.
*Apologies if Algernon wants them, OK if she prefers to ignore me.
Thanks Pteryxx, this is most awesome.
Caine: Will-do, ASAP. I pretty much have no excuse NOT to, don’t I? This is fucking Chilliwack. Corn, cattle, and I totally forgot to mention… FUCKING BERRIES. Blueberries, raspberries (grown for my convenience in an unfenced field) (Please forgive me… but RASPBERRIES!… it’s not like one gleaning TLC will make a dent in their profits, right?), even strawberries and cranberries.
I suppose hunting could be quite an environmentally friendly way of acquiring food. No monocultures to make feedstock, no factory farm waste, minimal carbon footprint. Hmm, I wonder if I can justify this as an excuse to go grouse hunting more often…
kristinc, SC is a woman.
There’s a brewery in Durham NC that has its patrons scavenge ingredients for some of their brews. They’ll be at next weeks Brewvivial. I can’t wait to both try their beer and visit their supposedly kick ass brewery next time I’m in NC.
The Southern craft beer movement really is something to appreciate right now.
If you’re in SC next weekend you should be in Charleston at Brewvival.
Well, if you like beer.
John, you know you made the mistake, now apologize before someone else really tears into you.
Wha?
Did I miss something?
^Sorry if I sound curt above, but I really don’t want to see even slightly misogynistic comments on TET, given the recent propensity for flames.
The Bible says if you’re hungry you can go to your neighbor’s vineyard and eat all the grapes you want, as long as you don’t take a bucket. I don’t know if it applies to raspberries, but it should.
CC: Look at 591. My misogyny detector may be a bit sensitive given recent personal events.
TLC, no you don’t! I think it would be a great thing, to talk with local folk and start organizing co-ops, trades, sales, all that. Lots of good stuff with the berries, too – preserves, juice, wine and plain fresh berries, yum! When you live in a place where there’s farming and most people at least garden, there are always great possibilities when it comes to localvore.
Why are you not pissed off about other people, other regulars on the previous thread talking about killing squirrels for eating? Seriously, other people, even regulars offered to let them hunt the squirrels in their attic or area. Josh, Spokesgay talked about not being able to hunt with a stick but that it was interesting/worth a shot (something along those lines, still looking for quotes). He talked about cooking and eating it. There was talk of recipes.
For fucks sake you keep saying things like
so make a fucking decision. Must you really drag it out and be all fucking hyberbolic about it? Saying shit like this
WTF? Drop it, cool the fuck off, leave for awhile if you have to or just fucking go.
The picking on TLC, talking past him and taking about him, saying:
like he’s a psychopath that tortures animals for fun and might even hurt people is fucking ridiculous. Like because he hunts for his own FOOD, you’re scared of him? You’ve responded to others who’ve admitted to using guns so why didn’t flip out on them? Why aren’t you scared of them?
Fine, you define what you’re comfortable around and what scares you. You could have brought this up the first time, asked for a trigger warning or just fucking killfiled if your that afraid/offended.
I’m not comfortable with you singling him out (hypercritical much?), and treating him like a psychopath. I still say fuck you on those points and definitely disagree with your worldview.
You’re misunderstanding that comment. John was responding to kristinc’s using a gender-neutral pronoun for SC and not for TLC, which we typically do when someone has not self-identified with a gender already. SC has identified as a woman.
huh,
he was just pointing out that SC was a woman, because kristinc seemed to have used a gender-neutral pronoun… (I thought it was spelt xe, though. Also, why not just use they)
oops! My apologies.
Because “they” in the singular grates for a lot of us. Even admitting that it’s not grammatically incorrect.
(of course you can use whatever you want. Just stating my personal preference. And at least in English you have a choice. In other languages, it is nigh impossible)
A.R, you’re being an idiot. SC is female.
Gah, that he’s self righteous comment too.
>.<
Fuck it, I'm taking my own advice and leaving, for a bit at least. I've never had to killfile but now I'm honestly considering it so I don't drag myself into this shit.
Although, I don't feel bad about defending TLC or calling out bullshit. I'm just not very good at it.
It’s a tough one. I do write about factory farming, and I have in the past objected to meat-eating here, and been called names and so on (the worst is people who announce in response that they’re going to go eat a burger out of spite). The discussion about the joys of cooking and eating rabbits, like all such discussions, was difficult for me to read, as I think I have made clear, not just because of the hunting aspect. (I mentioned cooking and eating several times.) Discussions about meat in general are terrible for me, and I’m ashamed that I ever participated in them, but I tend not to speak up other than occasionally referring someone to a book if I think they’re ignorant about the suffering. I’m not sure why. Maybe because it’s everywhere. I don’t know if it’s really OK for me to watch Top Chef. It’s not just the meat-eating but the celebration of it. But there have been several conversations about it here of late, it seems more than in the past (and I don’t think that’s unconnected to TLC), and it’s another reason I don’t know if I’m comfortable here.*
It wouldn’t be one that makes sense, but it isn’t my moral consideration. I guess I do see discussions of the joys of eating meat as not entirely parallel to discussions of the joys of hunting. If people are intentionally pushing the suffering and killing of the animals out of their minds, which I tend to think they often are, it’s different from talking about the enjoyment of that part of it. It’s totally objectionable to me, but in a different way. It would be far worse, I think, if people talked about their pleasure at visiting CAFOs and joining in the killing, or watching videos of it, before eating meat. And I think the casual discussion of the pleasures of hunting tends to make people even more callous about animals and more likely to accept the suffering they do think about.
*I’m not “threatening” to leave or flouncing or expecting anyone to object. I’m just trying to make a decision.
(ok let me ponder why something that’s been around organically for 500 years now grates more than an artificial pronoun that’s been created like 30-40 years ago maybe?)
(but my biggest complaint about xe is its orthographic anomaly, though this is even worse for the possessive, hir, the grapheme sequence ir is usually never pronounced that way at the end of a syllable. I think ze and heer might be marginally better)
Maybe I’m the odd ball, but I don’t find morality very tractable even remaining within the realm of our own species. If I grant people equal moral consideration, which I guess I try to, I accept that as an arbitrary practice, although at least one that allows for consistency…and for want of a better word, efficiency. Outside of our species, how we should treat other organisms is not straightforward. Suffering seems an important consideration, but maybe less so than sustainability. Or shit. Maybe not.
I mean, I’d we are going to be really utilitarian, and invite the non-humans along, isn’t it clear that suffering would be less if we weren’t in the picture? How much moral consideration is due to nonhumans, and how do we decide that?
I had this argument (mostly pretty friendly, IIRC) with SGBM, and I was unconvinced that “sentience” 1) was a necessary criterion for answering the above question, or 2) even had much meaning when applied so broadly.
I’ve been mulling it over all afternoon (“what do you mean, slow of mind?”), and what settled out of it is:
1) who died and made SC moderator? People have brought up points and asked questions seeking clarification of what the fuck it is that she’s getting at, except that because they are, in some way, not the conversations she wants to have, we shouldn’t bring them up and ask them.
2) when did Teh Thread become a conversation monoculture, anyway? Even if the comments SC has blown off are not sufficiently narrowly-focused to suit her, there’s no reason why there can’t be several closely-related conversations underway, all at the same time.
3) that SC is determined to “see what she wants to see” with regards to her relentless demonisation of TLC. I’ve seen several comments, with which I agree, indicating that others aren’t seeing the kill-happy psychopath that she sees in his comments.
Smells like….agenda.
My (no-doubt-insufficiently-original) two cents.
–
DrDMFM:
Never eat anything bigger than your head, you mean! ;^)
***
Not for nothin’, but I’ll just say generally: Not every conversation must be every conversation. Talking about one thing does not imply a careless or morally disinterested approach to the things not being talked about at the moment.
I think this is a broadly applicable rule of thumb.
***
Caine, TLC, et al.:
I came >this close< to joining a meat CSA last year on opening day of our local farmers’ market last year, but it offered too much duck, goose, lamb, etc., and not enough beef, pork, and chicken to suit the Lovely Bride™. Maybe I’ll take another run at persuading her this year.
***
At the risk of just one more comment about hunting, I have the shotgun my grandfather used to feed his young Depression-era family by hunting (according to family lore, anyway) squirrel in the wilds of what is now part of urban Jacksonville, FL. I’ve never fired the gun — don’t even know if it’s in proper working order — but it’s one of my most cherished family heirlooms.
Cicely:
I found your thoughts to be good and plenty original and worth much more than the proverbial two cents.
tangential to debate (I think):
People often say something similar about competitive, physical team sports, the kind I most like – that they desensitize people to violence, encourage hatred, turn people into callous monsters, that audiences only watch them because they want to see players get injured and whatnot. I don’t agree with this, at least not that it’s the sports rather than the hype.
I do think the casual self-aggrandizement in trophy hunting erases the suffering of animals, but that isn’t the kind of hunting we’re talking about here, and I don’t think callousness is necessary, endemic, or inseparable from hunting.
I also think that everyone should know that meat, any meat, is the bodies of animals, and that should inform their choice to eat it or not. (Some kids don’t even know that meat comes from animals.)
We still have granddaddy’s old deer rifle, and it shoots about as well as you would expect an old, well maintained, and cherished firearm to shoot.
Also, TLC, I think you’re highly suited to getting a co-op, localvore thing happening in your area. This is something which seriously interests you and is of good benefit to both you and your community.
Bill, if I may ask, what type of shotgun is it?
Thank you for explaining that (and for your whole post explaining). It makes more sense to me now. And now that I’m much less unclear on what’s going on, I’m going to try my best to jump decisively out of the discussion.
—
I’m having a fit of emotional confusion unrelated to everything here. I won’t go into details. But it’s making me pretty sad.
Caine: …?
You mean actually organize one myself???….
… *sheer terror*
*please go on anyways though*
CC:
I’m sorry to hear that. If you want to talk, you have ears and shoulders waiting.
*sniffle*
Thanks, Caine.
(Actually, my parenthetical (above, not this one) was a wryly-humorous (in intent, which we all know is not magical, but anyway…) reference to my I-think-most-previous comment on the originality of my posted treatises. Treatisi. Treatisauruses.)
–
TLC:
Why, yes, that’s what I mean. :D :D :D You have an interest in local foods, whole, healthy foods, you’re concerned about the environment, you’re interested in how people can get quality food on the table for less money and so on. Who better to talk with local folks, see who has what, and who would be willing to do this, that or the other?
A great way to start is to organize a farmer’s market if you don’t have a local one going already. There’s a lot of info out there.
Ah, thanks John. I thought I remembered that she was, but I didn’t want to fuck up if I was remembering incorrectly.
I’m a little less terrified now, Caine… Though I may be wiser checking out any that are already in progress and seeing how it’s done for a while before trying to organize my own. I know for a fact that these things go on here, I’ve just always been too unmotivated and penniless to check them out.
Well, like we agreed, there’s no excuse anymore is there?
http://www.chilliwackfarmersmarket.com/ see what I mean?
Jeez, I’ve been kinda stupid.
This anger at my reluctance to engage (though I have engaged with him despite the fact that he’s called me a variety of names) with a person who spends that much time talking about how he’s a predator and how he enjoys hunting animals, who is steeped in a scary version of the naturalistic fallacy, and who’s seriously misrepresented me and called me a fascist on this thread… Frankly, I find it odd after the very long discussion about a community shunning of Benjamin Geiger. Or the other long discussion about Walton in the third person.
But I don’t know why I’m surprised. Because people don’t have a problem with the things he says. They do have a problem with my comments about psychotropic drugs, regardless of how politely they’re phrased, and are fine with people saying terrible things about me if I dare to mention the subject. They generally respond nastily to discussions of animal rights, regardless of how those arguments are made, and I’ve been pretty viciously attacked on those threads regardless of my “manners.” So, yeah…
TLC:
Well, you’ve learned there are great reasons to go and you can save pennies, too!
I think, for you, this is a particularly good way to get to know people and become more active in your community. It could also be a good way for you to make money with your carvings and knife making. A lot of good things could come out of it.
SC, you see anger in words where I see a deliberate attempt not to convey any.
TLC:
Nah, a lot of people are unaware of these things. You know about them know, and a farmer’s market is a fantastic way to meet people and get incredible deals worked out, and to get the whole co-op thing going.
Bill Dauphin, #611
Just last week I scored a NEW copy of it, to replace my old, long-lost one. It’d been so long that I had to explain B.Kliban to my wife. The first few panels just baffled her, but I think we’ve had a bit of a breakthrough with “HARDW”.
OR:
You know about them now. Yeesh. Distracted by Top Chef.
Why are walton and Geiger in the same sentence, again?\
You have no idea what kind of person I really am, SC. You have no idea what I’ve been through growing up, what kind of troubles I’ve had fitting in with other humans. I’m not inclined to discuss them any further though. I’m pretty thick skinned, even in my soft spots, but I’m still not going to expose them to the likes of you so you can use all that as ammo to demonize me too.
The fact that you can’t see why your ‘little… off’ comment was fucking ableist is a perfect illustration of what I mean.
Sorry I suck at being a ‘human’. According to you though, animals, even filthy ones like me, are still capable of empathy and emotion and stuff.
Paragraph, rather.
You’re wrong.
And I see no justification for you to disagree except for your bias against TLC (or those who refuse to “denounce” him), and that makes you not just wrong, but aggressively so.
I didn’t think of it this way, but yeah. This definitely bears thinking about. Thanks for pointing me in all the right directions, Caine!
hotshoe responds to SC:
So you think SC actually doesn’t disagree with that completely?
I see no justification for your claim that SC is wrong except except for your bias against SC (or those who refuse to “denounce” her).
(OTOH, that doesn’t imply that you are not just wrong, but aggressively so)
TLC, even if you can’t make cash for your carvings and handwork, I would be pretty surprised if you weren’t able to barter them for things.
Kristinc, Caine, I had an idea but I’m not sure the legalities of it.
Mora of sweden makes wonderful, simple, inexpensive woodcraft knives. They come with a plain red painted wooden handle. I was thinking of buying a bunch, decoratively carving the handles, and then selling them as decorated, good quality Mora knives. No claiming that I forged them myself or anything.
Is this legal?
hotshoe:
Very wrong. Upthread, I pointed out that most of the wild rabbits around here are mostly hunted (successfully) by raptors. If you want to see and hear an animal in extreme terror and experiencing a great deal of pain and suffering, watch a raptor get a rabbit. (or someone’s pet dog.)
No matter whether you agree with hunting for food or not, a skilled hunter does their utmost to make sure a kill is clean with minimal pain or suffering on the animal’s part.
TLC: what Caine said, I didn’t get back to the thread fast enough. X> Maybe you could volunteer, help haul or set up or something, maybe for munchies if they’re okay with barter?
—
SC: I can’t figure what you’re on about except that TLC is too flamboyant about hunting for you. A few other folks here hunt in various ways and enjoy it, many of us enjoy eating meat, and while animals don’t do research on each other I don’t see you coming after me, and I all but invited you to. I don’t think listening to his stories does anything to brainwash us beyond considering his experience and providing fodder for reasonable discussion, like anyone else’s. If you want to convince us that makes him a bloodthirsty monster, you’d damn well better do a better job of it than presupposing your conclusions and throwing a fit.
If you can’t stand reading them, then for petessake killfile TLC already and be done with it.
TLC:
Hmmm. As long as you pay for them, and don’t attempt to pass them off as something you made completely, I think you’d be okay. I’m not a lawyer, though, so it might be best to run that by someone with legal skills.
I’d definitely pay for them, Caine, they cost around 14 bucks each, give or take a few. Depending on the carving on the handle, how skillfully executed it is and how much people like that and all that, I could be making like a 20 dollar profit on some possibly?
Any time I’ve considered selling anything I’ve made… Pricing is always difficult for me. Maybe a ‘make an offer’ system?
Caine:
Yep.
The local red-tailed hawks have discovered the flock of pigeons that (used to) roost on the building next door. I’ve seen and heard them take down a pigeon in my courtyard.
All in all, I think it’s pretty cool. There’s no more pigeons crapping all over my deck and I’ve gotten to see hawks up close (in the city!).
TLC:
A $20.00 profit is good and doesn’t charge the consumer too much. I’d say you could probably make a little more than that, but it’s good to start.
As for the ‘make an offer’, I’d stay away from that – people are amazingly cheap when it comes to art or artisan work of any kind. They seem to be under the impression they ought to get it for free. :D
Do they still? I haven’t seen a new Mora with a wooden handle for a decade or more.
I have a few of the newer ones with plastic handles in my toolbox for jobs that might damage the blade, as they are only about 2 euros a piece at the nearest hardware store.
I do remember they were once thought of fondly for their laminated steel that was able to both withstand abuse and take a sharp edge.
Consider that warning heeded. I think I’m done underselling myself with insecurity when it comes to that. Definitely.
34 dollars for a good quality knife with a unique carved handle is something I’d pay pretty happily. Yeah.
Audley, pigeons don’t scream. Rabbits and dogs do. The local dove and pigeon population gets hunted by by raptors a *lot*. I find the feather heaps all over the damn place when I’m out and about with my camera.
Yeah, here in canada they do still. I’ve seen the youtube vids for the tacky plastic-handled versions… still decent blades, I’m told, but yeah.
We tend to get them from a place called Lee Valley Tools. I think they still use the laminated steel with them, I’m not sure. They definitely do hold up well though, my dad’s been using and abusing them for years now.
TLC: Factor in your cost for materials, the original piece, tools/shipping/taxes AND YOUR TIME, and pay yourself at least minimum wage per hour. That’ll tell you about what price you should be charging – and also, about how much value you should take in barter for a piece. Artists of any sort tend to SERIOUSLY undervalue their own time.
No, pigeons don’t scream. But the panicky flapping can make a ton of noise in-and-of itself, especially when they’re trapped underneath a piece of furniture.
I don’t think I’d ever want to hear a rabbit scream.
Audley:
No, you don’t. You definitely don’t.
TLC, Google could be your friend. Maybe do an image search for “carved knife”, check out the ones that are for sale (rather than posted for bragging rights), and use that as a sort of loose guideline.
–
TLC, remember it’s not a $20 “profit”. It’s a $20 payment for your time and skill. Consider how much your time is worth in pricing the items. Folk festivals and Ren Faires might also be good outlets.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
Heh. I was pretty sure that I knew what you were referring to before I clicked your link. They’re a 15-minute drive from my place. If you find yourself in the area, you might want to check out this nearby restaurant.
I see that I’m late to the hunting discussion party. My apologies, TLC, I would have liked to back you up earlier.
My thoughts on this may be a little less coherent than I’d like, because I’ve been extremely physically active today and I’m very tired and at the moment even typing hurts.
I have hunted ducks with my dad since the day after I turned 12 and got my license (that’s 11 years now), and I was out in the marsh with him for several years before that.
The kill is the smallest part of the hunt. Hunting is about the way the stars look two hours before dawn, the mist rising from the creek, the way the canoe glides through the water. It’s about watching the sun rise over the decoys and sparkle on the frost on the cattails. It’s about learning from your dad, who learned from his dad, who learned from his dad. It’s about teaching your dog to retrieve, as she was bred to do, and admiring her work. It’s about listening to the coyotes at night and watching the swans fly overhead. And it’s about reminding yourself of your place in all of this.
Hunters are not bloodthirsty psychopaths. On the contrary, I am often saddened by the death of the ducks I hunt. Vegans and vegetarians are free to object to me hunting. Oddly enough, the ones I know in real life don’t have a problem with it. But for meat-eaters, there’s nothing wrong with getting your meat a little more directly. I don’t get all of my meat from the supermarket, packaged beyond recognition. I know that a duck died to make my dinner, and I don’t think that awareness is a bad thing.
Cicely and Pteryxx… Hmmm. Worth thinking about.
Normally when I carve… well.. when I was a kid, my dad got a giant section of yellow cedar log. We still have lots of this log left. Yellow cedar is a joy to carve, though it can get dirty looking if your hands are (not a problem if you paint or use dark brown boot polish), and it smells awesome when you cut it… almost like weed, but very cedary and rich smelling.
So I dunno what to say for ‘cost of material’. There are the disposable blades I tend to carve with, though. A whittling knife needs to be as sharp as possible. These blades come pretty damn sharp and are easier to discard than resharpen… yeah I know, lazy me.
Rabbit screams, a non-traumatizing story with a happy ending:
The house rabbit I had for years was one we ended up with after Mr Kristinc spotted him (white with black patches, obviously domesticated) lolloping around in a yard across the street eating the petunias. We went over there, knocked on the door, and the lady didn’t know where he came from but didn’t really want us to catch him because she thought he was cute. After we pointed out that he wouldn’t stand much chance against a dog she saw our side of it and we went and got a box and a couple towels.
I, Mr Kristinc, my sister and my brother in law spent about 20 minutes making chumps out of ourselves crawling through this lady’s bushes after a baby bunny who did a pretty good job of outwitting us all, until BIL flushed him out and I tackled him with the blanket. The bunny set up a death scream you could have heard a couple houses away and the lady of the house came hurtling out of her door: “What are you doing to it???”
We reassured her that he was fine, took him home, and loved on him for a long time. His name was Salvador, and he used to lollop over and climb in my lap like a puppy.
Audely: Rabbit screams are one of those sounds that just chill you. Absolutely mortifying.
And on the matter of killing animals, my friend who kills, plucks, cleans and cooks her own chickens that she’s raised from chick to rooster is not some kind of reprehensible psychopath. Quite the opposite, in fact. Food means killing; live with it, or live in denial.
QFT
Thank you, Nutmeg.
When I go out there, for me and with my style it’s the smell of the undergrowth, and those weirdass flowers that grow beside the railroad tracks with that indescribable smell that sets off some weird part of my mind… (no idea what they are but they have tall purple watery stalks and pink and white flowers)
It’s also about the other animals, the ones I ain’t hunting, (because holy crap what I do would be a frustrating pile of shit if it was ONLY about killing something. I am nowhere NEAR that good yet).
There are birds, like the dove-couple I saw making a nest in a tree and was all like ‘Hey, we have doves here.’ Varied thrushes and robins fighting and fucking and raising babies, them little hermit thrushes that sometimes seem to follow alongside me as if observing what I do just like I observe them.
And all these creatures, aware of me like I am of them. You want to know the real joy of hunting for me? Being part of the ‘cycle of life’, a cycle that includes vastly more species than humans, and which humans aren’t necessarily as on top of as we think.
Vastly preferrable to the agricultural industry, where life is a product to be marketed.
Kristinc, that was a nice story, thank you.
Very nice, Kristinc. There are a pair of teenage girls I saw with a very happy looking bunny around the park on a leash last summer. It had very floppy ears and seemed to be enjoying the opportunity to graze a bit and stretch its legs.
TLC:
That’s what I think many people miss out on. The awareness that we’re connected to the rest of the world, that we’re just another cog in the machine. I’m glad that sometimes I remember this.
While we’re talking about food and eating animals, does anyone have any recommendations for websites/blogs/cookbooks that might be a good introduction to vegan cooking? A lot of my fellow grad students are vegan or vegetarian, and I don’t know what to bring to potlucks besides a veggie plate. I’d love to find a source of vegan recipes that would be suitable for someone who learned to cook in a meat-and-potatoes kind of way.
Nutmeg:
1. As well claim that getting from A to B is the smallest part of commuting.
2. I’d call that camping.
3. I find your mysticism meaningless and annoying.
This was probably my favorite thing about gardening. A combination of health issues and hideously invasive weeds I just couldn’t control led me to give up on the garden a couple years ago, but I loved feeding the microherd in the soil, seeing the busy earthworms, providing water and cover for the birds, spotting the spiders and ladybugs doing their things. Thinking in terms of an ecology where everything affected everything else. Sure the vegetables tasted great but it was about more than that.
Nutmeg, Epicurious has some good vegan recipes.
Kristinc and Nutmeg: Well, there is gathering too.
Blackberries are always free. In season, dandelion greens are supposed to be edible and nutritious. I can identify oyster mushrooms and boletus mushrooms with enough confidence to enjoy them fearlessly when I come across them. There are also many naturalized cherry trees around here, of varieties ranging from pale red to deep purple. Plenty of people have apple and plum trees too, seemingly intentionally planted close enough to the road that snagging a few doesn’t involve trespassing.
Problem with gathering is seasonality. And it’s very hard to ‘gather’ enough to live on without hunting. If not impossible.
Kristinc:
Word. Gardening takes forever to get done with me, because I’m too busy picking up my camera every other minute because there’s a bee, there’s an ambush bug, there’s a wasp drinking out of my beer can with psychedelic eyes, there’s a death beetle, bees!, there’s a grackle, there’s a robin playing in the water, oooh, look at the jumping spider, dragonflies mating!, there’s an orb weaver, there’s a hoverfly, omg, a clearwing hummingbird moth, oh, over there, there’s the flicker and ooh, gotta chase a butterfly and on and on and on and on it goes.
My garden is mostly feral.
Caine: Thanks! There are a lot of recipes there, I’m sure I’ll be able to find some that I could pull off.
@ John Morales:
1 and 2: Getting from point A to point B is the point of commuting. I was trying to express that often, for me and many others, the kill is not the main point of hunting. We could get meat in other ways, but we choose to get it in a way that allows us to experience the outdoors. As stated above, if you’re vegetarian or vegan, I don’t mind if you’re bothered that sometimes my hunts include a kill. If you eat meat, I’m perplexed.
3: Interesting, I’ve never been accused of mysticism before. You say mysticism, I say an awareness of evolutionary biology and ecology.
TLC:
They are, but you want young leaves. The older the leaf, the more bitter. The dried roots make a nice tea and the flower buds, before they open, are delicious if sauteed lightly or used in an omelet.
I’m falling asleep to your mellifluous descriptions, y’all. Thanks.
…and rather anticipating how, when I check TET again, Morales will be trying to justify this one as anything but trolling.
Nutmeg, first, I thank you for not taking offence.
Next, for 1-2, it seems to me that everything you’ve lauded about hunting you could get by camping. (You did not laud the kill)
As for 3, if you need to go hunting to remind yourself of “your place in all of this”# (which you have clarified to mean having an awareness of evolutionary biology and ecology##), I offer you my condolences.
(I have no such need)
—
As I wrote yesterday, I went hunting, once*. I did not enjoy it (I do enjoy camping).
Um. Strictly speaking, I consider fishing a form of hunting, and I’ve been fishing twice. So I guess I’ve gone hunting thrice.
—
# That’s mystic-speak, as I see it.
## That’s not.
As other have said, no you don’t. Until last spring I didn’t know rabbits could make such a sound. We used to have a rabbit that would hang out by the mailbox — pretty open with just a bit of cover from a vine, not like the numerous shrubbery near the house — we always wondered about that choice. I was stepping out the door when a hawk (Cooper’s?) swooped down and took it not 15 ft from where I was standing. Yikes. We got some pretty good pictures of the hawk over the course of the rest of the afternoon.
Speaking of rabbits, the suburbs we live in used to have one for ever 4 or 5 houses — I know that be our dog (a Chow mix) would go nuts whenever he saw one out on our nightly walks. This last year they all seemed to have disappeared. I think I saw only one or two all year. We had a bit of West Nile in the area, I don’t know if that did them in.
QFT. What’s mystical about the fact that humans are another species of animal, just as much as any other animal despite our wonderful abilities?
John Morales:
What keeps weirding me out is that on the one hand, no one here would likely argue that we are somehow ‘set above’ the other animals, nor made in any god’s image, nor any different than what we are, correct?
We’re all pretty much in agreement, it seems, about the horrors of the corporate agribusiness model, but when we get it the old fashioned way like any other animal, we’re somehow morally reprehensible.
Many of us eat meat. The fact that we are concerned about the animal’s suffering at all already puts us miles ahead of any other predator as far as you can apply ‘morality’ to animals.
I also note that I’m also in favor of sustainable, small scale farming, like urban chickens (Even pigs and goats if I had my way), where the animals get fresh air and sunlight and quality food. Even if I didn’t care about the suffering, I believe quality fodder and stress free life is likely to produce better quality meat and eggs.
But I do care about the suffering. Everything dies eventually. Even me. I’d like to think of old age, but there’s no guarantee. Isn’t it more important that its time alive is spent with a relative lack of suffering followed by a quick death?
Also, John, I understand that you did not enjoy your experience, and not everyone does and not everyone is expected to even try it. But I don’t think that exactly entitles you to dismiss our experiences like that.
It’s one thing to study evolution and ecology, but when you hunt you’re actually in it. Part of it.
Also, there’s a hint of privilege there John, some of us actually have needed to hunt now and then to supplement what’s in the fridge.
Again I submit that hunting and sustainable smallscale farming are less cruel than the current agribusiness model.
Caine
That’s one of the things my grandparents mixed in their coffee to make it last longer during and after WW II. I don’t blame them for never wanting to taste it again, but I’m getting curious.
John Morales
Pretty close. Free range, organic wild duck doesn’t generally wander by the campsite and present itself for consumption. And I enjoy carrying on a family tradition. Not everyone feels the same way, and I’m okay with that. I like having the marsh to myself.
I don’t need condolences, though. I’m a biology grad student, I can comprehend ecology and evolutionary biology just as well in the lab as in the marsh. Like many people, I derive satisfaction from the more hands-on experience of hunting and fishing. Again, it’s not for everyone, but it’s nothing to sneer at.
I just found an interview with Andrew Breitbart: http://current.com/shows/the-young-turks/videos/andrew-breitbart-i-stand-by-precisely-what-i-said-about-occupy-protesters-to-raping-people-interview-part-1
My god, he is unbearable.
TLC,
I can’t speak for others, but I think you’re correct overall, and indeed so in my case.
Not from my perspective; you’re thinking of SC.
I have no problem with your hunting, and I suspect Nutmeg is also a responsible hunter.
I eat meat. As for the rest of that sentence, I don’t think you can generalise so about hunters; I know for a fact that some don’t care about their prey’s suffering.
The universe is uncaring, but yes, from a human perspective I entirely concur with you.
(You might not have been here at the time, but I’ve previously expressed how repugnantly cruel I find intensive animal-keeping. I might have mentioned how poignant I find the sight (and smell) of semis with a load of pigs going to the slaughterhouse; yet I eat pork*)
—
* Why? Because I know damn well that me ceasing to eat pork will make no difference; I wouldn’t even eat the equivalent of one pig every few years.
You didn’t mention either of those in the comment to which I responded.
To clarify: You extolled an activity because of its ancillary benefits, and I noted none of those benefits depended on that particular activity.
—
PS Duck can be free-range or wild, but not both.
Also, all ducks are organic, being living creatures!)
Weed Monkey:
It was used in place of chicory roots in coffee in bad economic times. I wouldn’t say it’s the most delicious thing out there, because it isn’t. A tea decocted from the roots is okay, but there’s much more tasty stuff to make tea from out there. It’s actually not bad mixed in with coffee, but it does have a bitter edge, so if you don’t like bitter, you wouldn’t care for it at all.
I get a better understanding of my place in nature by making bread. Honestly. Helps me remember how interwoven other organisms are into my being alive – how it’s all chemical, biological processes. I think the best thing for me would be to go through the whole process of making a meal – all of it – once. And no, it’s not mystic-speak just because you don’t grok it, John.
(Warning for discussion of animal death. Please feel free to Hide Comment if it bothers you or scroll on past.)
I participated in the butchering of a cow once. I saw it alive, then dead. I don’t get enjoyment out of the killing itself, but I appreciate being directly involved in the process, and I appreciate the knowing. I never repressed intentionally the knowledge that animals were dying to make my food; instead, til I participated in butchering that cow, I never fully understood what it meant that my food was made from animals, not on any gut, emotional level. I struggled to wrap my head around it, because I had seen meat and I had seen animals and I did not know how one could be the other. Now I know – it goes from alive, breathing, eating, feeling, to dead, then we – people – go in and (details glossed here for the faint of stomach) physically make it into meat. I get it. I still eat meat, but now I know what it means. I am able to understand that there is an animal involved that can suffer and merits empathy. And I feel that it is vastly morally preferable for people to participate directly in the process, because I think it’s better for them to know and take responsibility for it. And yeah, I hope someday I’ll be able to do a better job of shifting my consumption toward things that cause less suffering and ecological harm. But I’m not going to condemn other people for being involved in practices that don’t minimize their exposure to the violence involved in their eating habits. I hope that makes sense.
John Morales: Yes, I was being somewhat facetious about the good qualities of duck. My tone didn’t translate very well on the internet.
I think we’re all good here, and at any rate I have to get up in six and a half hours, so bedtime for me.
John Morales:
OK, you got me there. I can’t generalize so. Some really don’t care. But I was talking about those of us who hunt on this thread. Still…
I agree.
So what was your big quibble with what nutmeg said? Or was this just one of those John Morales things that you sometimes do, as you’ve explained recently?
TLC,
I quote what I wrote to Nutmeg (‘night, Nutmeg!): “You extolled an activity because of its ancillary benefits, and I noted none of those benefits depended on that particular activity.”
To put it more bluntly: what do you get out of hunting that you don’t get out of, say, stalking wild animals for with a camera for the purpose of taking photographs?
(I could list a bunch of things that are good about being religious, but as atheists we both know these things can be had without being religious)
John: OOOOOOOH, I see.
I think I already answered: The meat, silly.
Food. I would have thought that much was evident by now.
Caine, I’ll be sure to taste it when the show melts. I’ve already been eating young dandelion leaves as a salad. Although, what leafy vegetable wouldn’t taste good with olive oil and balsamic vinegar?
I’d also say the act of getting food with nature kind of puts us right in the middle of the cycle in a fairly direct way. Particularly, though not very often, if you hunt in areas where cougar and grizz prowl.
*from rather
PS two images (courtesy Wikipedia):
1: Matador. (Spanish for ‘killer’)
(Those dangly things are barbed flags (‘banderillas’) that pierce the shoulder muscles and make the bull weak enough for the elegant kill with the sword)
2: Minoan Bull-leaper.
(Guess which one impresses me, and which one repels me)
show melts :D ok, that meant snow melts. *offering to Tpyos*
[correction]
I’ve actually read the article and refreshed my memory (tauromaquia was about the only thing on TV in the afternoon when I was a child).
In fact, the weakening is done with lances on horseback by the picador, and the main purpose is to weaken the neck muscles so the bull can’t properly hold its head up. The flags are sorta trophies to show how the bull can be ‘tagged’ during the various passes.
(I hate making such errors! Grr)
A.R.:
You may most certainly ask; I may well not be competent to answer!
It’s a side-by-side double-barreled gun, with a break action. (I don’t know if that’s the right term, but I think I heard it somewhere: There’s a little lever on the top of the stock, and pushing it to one side allows you to “break” the gun and insert shells.) I’m not familiar enough about shotguns to even know what gauge it is, except that it’s not as small as .410.
The gun has a visible dent in one barrel, and I keep meaning to take it to a gunsmith to find out more about it and see if it can economically be put into working order. I have, of course, no need whatsoever for a working shotgun, since I don’t hunt[1], live in a safe community, and in any case believe that having a firearm for “home defense” would be far more likely to get me or a loved one killed than to protect us. That said, I love the thing as an artifact, and machines that don’t work just bug me… so I’d like to get it in working order (perhaps only the undented barrel) and fire it a few times at a range, just so I can feel like it is what it was built to be.
My brothers-in-law have guns, and I’ve been to shooting ranges with them: I think guns can be fascinating as machines, and as technology… and I’ve never failed to enjoy myself when I’ve been shooting (even though I”m no better than a mediocre shot). That said, I’m clearly not part of any “gun culture.”
(Portcullis coming?)
***
[1] My family owned a share of a boat when I was growing up, and I did a moderate amount of fishing with them, so I guess that counts as hunting by John’s def… but it has nothing to do with needing a gun.
@ Janine / James 375
Sadly this has endless historical precedent. It is not however the crux of an argument that I would ultimately make wrt to human rights.
This can quite easily (history is full of examples) give rise to a zero sum game. People feel compelled to protect their perceived rights (theo glares at Sandra and other reactionary, privileged, libertarian snowflakes who feel they have “the law” on their side) against others who wish to attain them.
The ground rules need a far more substantial basis than this and we need to ask ourselves, rather, what these may be in order to create an equitous and peaceful society. We should not continually need to fight for these rights. That would be a fuck up for everyone in the long run. There are many constitutions and legal systems that recognise this and cobble together rules that treat all people equally without reference to mere accidents of birth. Unfortunately USA is not one of these.
Just as Sandra is a product of abuse wrt her ideas on bullying, she has also succumbed to her privilege wrt her ideas on gay marriage. If you can just get her to stop lying and acknowledge this, she may become more self-critical and remedy her attitudes.
@ David Marjanović 426
Reminds me… what does the “AVION” stand for in “Par Avion” (You will generally see this on aerograms)?
.
.
.
.
.
Appareil Volant Imitant les Oiseaux Naturels
Picture: Baby kitteh hunts wabbits. (Warning, don’t click link if you do not accept that mammalian predators are incredibly cruel.)
@ TLC 419
Expand your definition of “hunting”. There are plenty of women that like to go fishing for example and the financial barrier to entry here is negligible. Also consider diving. That happens in a group and has a wonderfully primal feel to it. Even those who do not dive, can take part in the “hunt” by preparing the fire and guarding the beers etc. (I realise you might be too far from the sea, but surely you have rivers and lakes?)
@ The Sailor 457
Deer’s Ramance : The western media are rather prissy. The newspaper here featured them bonking away hammer-and-tongs.
@ pentatomid 460
Actually, a lot of the big game reserves in Southern Africa have been extremely successful in protecting their wildlife. Often to the extent that they must step in to thin out herds (including buffels and elephants) which are then used to feed staff. Also they have a canning plant, so I have been able to eat some exotic creatures with a clear conscience.
@ janine 470
XDDDDD
@ KG 477
Duck’s tongues are a common delicacy here and rather delicious.
@ changeable moniker 530
I do see the problem at the boundaries, for regulations such as the age of consent and (in this case) age of marriage. And it further varies from country to country, even those that accept the principle of basic human rights. What is very important (even if the distinctions may seem arbitrary) is that once these parameters are decided upon, they apply equally to all.
The age of maturity, consent etc is not something that, I think, is in principle beyond being put to the vote – as opposed to human rights which are not up for vote.
Bill:
A lot of hunting has nothing to do with guns. For years, Mister went bowhunting, sometimes I’d go with and hunt myself. (Compound for Mister, Recurve for me.)
I mentioned upthread that Mister used to go fishing a lot, but circumstances have prevented that for sometime now. We haven’t eaten any fish for quite a while, either. Darn.
I started hunting when I was 11, used to go with my great-grandfather, grandfather and uncles. I rarely hunt these days*, but I don’t regret doing it at all.
*Except with a camera.
John:
It’s more than a little surprising to me that you thought bullfighting was just what this conversation was missing!
That said, you (along with someone’s earlier mention of Tom Lehrer) remind me of this, which Steven Pinker (oddly enough) quotes in The Better Angels of Our Nature, in the context of discussing bullfighting’s progression from being a beloved “sport” to being broadly condemned (and banned in many places).
@ AR
A friend of mine and I were going to start a scheme in Juba, South Sudan to feed the people rabbits. (I had never seen rabbits there before. This was during the war and the city was under siege.)
We did all the maths (simple really … 2^n forevah) and worked out the recipes. Also how I would smuggle them down and how to get the scheme started. That part was fine. He got the ball rolling by starting a breeding program in his backyard (this was in Khartoum).
BUT:
It turned out none of us could kill the rabbits! In theory it sounds easy: “Pick up rabbit by ears and hit on back of head with blunt object.” In the end the sounds of the rabbit put paid to the whole initiative.
Theophontes: Back legs are better, that’s how I did it with a domestic rabbit. And I didn’t lift it off the ground, just held the two back legs. One hit. No scream. Instant death.
Maybe I was just lucky.
OK. I get it, and I admire the humanitarian impulse to warn people off of a topic they might find upsetting. I think trigger warnings are a valid thing.
Having said that, please, please, please for the love of Pete. Please. Let’s not turn this into the Slacktiverse. Where we have trigger warnings for “birth discussed in the abstract,” or for “animal uplifts” (a sci-fi trope some people find, mmmm, disturbing).
There are trigger warnings, and then there’s Enforced Nursery School.
Josh:
No kidding. A winning dish on Top Chef tonight was braised rabbit with sliced rabbit heart. The way some people have been going on, that should have a trigger warning.
well, if ignoring means not commenting, yeah.
I for one do roll my eyes a lot, though.
By the way, I’d like to say that, contrary to recent speculation and innuendo, I do not exhibit Asperger Syndrome nor any other “spectrum disorder” in real life (unless the spectrum has been expanded to include garden-variety introversion).
I am only an asshole on the internet, sometimes.
Ah, the coyotes are howling, such a sweet sound.
I think they’re valid, too, but I’ve always been a it puzzled by them: I don’t have any triggers (that I know of), but I think if I did, knowing how I think, the mere sight of the words trigger warning would instantly make me think about all of them.
Could someone to whom trigger warnings are useful help me understand why they’re not meta-triggers themselves? This is, I promise, an honest question, and not an argument disguised as a question: Enquiring minds want to know.
Noted. To be fair, I wrote that part before I decided to gloss over the details of butchering anyway, and it probably would have seemed more warranted if I hadn’t done that.
Trigger warnings can be a useful and kind thing to help people avoid extraordinarily painful reactions. But they very easily get “mission creep”: where anything anyone ever at any time finds distasteful gets a trigger warning. Fuck that. Life is full of hard, difficult topics that need discussion. Ugly realities aren’t going to magically disappear because one is “warned” not to read about A Thing. It’s utter death to conversation and potential action on issues.
Not to mention totally infantilizing.
@ Josh
Sorry, but I did find the picture I posted of the kitteh really … Eeeuw. (Though strangely appropriate.)
Chas:
Me too. Same goes for most of us.
I don’t understand how this is a question. There’s a difference between being warned that rape will be discussed and, without warning, coming across vivid details of a rape that happens to closely resemble your own. And there are days on which we can’t risk the latter happening.
Bill, that Lehrer song is excellent!
(Mordant, even)
CC, I didn’t mean to lay the whole blame for the TW problem on you, please know. It was just a handy example for some of the potential problems.
Caine:
Nevermind the trigger warnings, where was the spoiler warning? Have you forgotten you live in the Age of the DVR™? ;^)
I guess the fact that you said “A winning dish…” is a pretty slim reed on which to hang my hopes of suspense, eh?
I’m not saying that designing a bra that would fit a cow wouldn’t take some serious thought, but I’d hardly call it science fiction!
BWAHHAHAHAHAHHA!
Imagine having to specify a cup size four times.
Oh lord, I’m giggling.
Bill, personally, I don’t find trigger warnings helpful, because, as you say, simply seeing that brings specific situations to mind. I can tell within a few lines whether or not something is going to cause me problems if I continue reading and if it will, I skip it.
I have a more difficult time with visuals when it comes to triggering than I do with text, for what it’s worth.
Bill:
There was more than one winning dish tonight.
CC:
Thanks for responding.
I guess so; it’s just that I think the warning itself would automatically start the movie running in my head, potentially in more vivid detail than the words I’d been warned off of.
But then, perhaps I only think that because it’s hypothetical for me, not real? I’ve been reluctant to issue trigger warnings (on the rare occasions I’ve said things that might need them) for fear of doing more harm than good, but I (of course!) take you at your word.
And this…
…I absolutely understand.
@ TLC
Perhaps that actually is a good way to kill them. Now that I am older and wiser, I think we were lucky not to find out how to do it. It might have been an unmitigated disaster (a la Australia.)
SC, you shouldn’t be surprised at your treatment here. If you stake out a position as extreme as Singer’s, a lot of people are going to disagree with you. Every time.
The fact of the matter is that individual animals do not have rights or moral standing in contemporary society, because most people don’t think they should be granted rights and moral standing.
[note that neither my own opinions nor those of R.F. Dawkins should be assumed to have been expressed in this comment.]
Theophontes: In my experience, with the domestic rabbit, lifting all four feet off the ground was what stressed it and caused it to start getting all panicky. When I held the back legs but otherwise let it stay on the ground, it didn’t seem nearly so stressed. And with it holding relatively still, I was able to get a very accurate hit right where the spinal cord joins the skull. There are no gory details there, it simply dropped dead.
it also occurs to me that holding it by the ears sounds like an incredibly stressful way to handle a rabbit. And I’m having a hard time figuring out how you’d get a proper hit in. I just can’t picture it in my mind.
@ NuMad
Wow, now you have triggered a memory: Science
fictioncow. (ROFL Warning! Please put down all hot drinks and snacks at arms length before proceeding.)Josh: You have to tell me now.
What in FUCK does ‘Animal Uplift’ mean? Seriously.
We don’t need to be “set above” them or be made in the image of a fictional character in order to do things other animals can’t. We’re also not made of fundamentally different stuff than rocks, but there are certain statements about us which don’t apply to rocks.
Other predators can’t engage in the kind moral reasoning we can. That fact doesn’t somehow make it better when you do it poorly by coming up with irrelevant excuses.
More important than what? If you didn’t kill it, it would have even more time to live. Should this rule apply to humans as you suggest? People die eventually, so it’s “more important” that when we kill them, they don’t suffer. It’s not “if” to you, but “when.” Can’t we just not kill them?
———
Bill:
It’s generally the details that get me, which sometimes I’d like to be warned about (but not be ignorant about either). The mere existence of suffering indicated by the words “trigger warning” isn’t a problem, because that isn’t going to catch me by surprise and wouldn’t need to carry a warning. I do think it’s overdone at times here, like “QFT” or pretty much anything else can be.
TLC, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uplift_%28science_fiction%29
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UpliftedAnimal
Obliquely relevant to the TW discussion…
Ira Glass (of This American Life) was on Dan Savage’s podcast a couple episodes ago, and aside from the delightful cognitive dissonance of hearing Ira Effin’ Glass say the words cock and blowjob, one of the most interesting bits was their conversation about the little disclaimer Glass does at the beginning of any story that “mentions the existence of sex.”
I’m not sure what it says about me, but I am the opposite of those who need spoilers. I like them.
Often, I’ll read the very end of a book to see how it turns out, if (having started it) I’m not sure I want to keep reading it.
And, when watching sports, I often wait to find out if my team (or player, as the case may be) won; if not, I just delete the recording.
Josh and Caine: OK, so what the hell is so disturbing to some people about ‘talking animals’ and scenes involving them? This is very confusing.
Back in my misspent youth I worked for a couple of years in a cardiovascular research lab attached to a teaching hospital. Like most CV research labs, we studied dogs mainly. But for a while they were working on miniaturizing a device we were testing and so we had some rabbits. These were albino lab rabbits. I found them vaguely creepy.
But anyway, we were trained to never pick up a rabbit by its hind legs alone because they were prone to spinal injury and paraplegia.
@ TLC
We are talking about two well meaning but bungling oafs here. The correct way is as follows. Picture: How to kill a rabbit. We where too freaked out by the screams to ever get to this stage.
This, of course, is true. It is also true that there exist triggers that would never be considered such: colours, smells, sounds, accents etc. Trigger warnings are useful, but inherently limited.
TLC:
I don’t have the slightest idea. I guess some people don’t like the idea of animals having an intelligence on par with their own.
That’s one way for sure Theophontes, my way was pretty much like that except I didn’t actually lift its back end off the ground.
Conciousness razor:
Fraid not. It’s like you say, I’m capable of ethical considerations other predators simply aren’t. Which is why I actually care about killing them quickly and cleanly for my food. Which already puts me miles ahead of other carnivores on your ‘moral scale’, as I’ve said before. Most predators don’t care if their meat is alive while they eat it or not.
This is also why I find factory farming abhorrent, and would rather get my meat from other sources when I can.
If all these moral considerations aren’t enough for you, well too bad. I’m not going to spend the rest of my life carefully formulating a balanced vegan diet just to satisfy someone else’s sense of morality.
I see nothing wrong with killing animals for food. I see everything wrong with raising animals in a factory farm like a ‘product’ instead of living beings.
John:
I seem to recall recently hearing about some research (which, no, I cannot cite) that concluded people generally enjoy narratives more when they know the ending of the story in advance, regardless of what they say they prefer.
That said, I think the outcome of a contest is a horse of a slightly different color than the ending of a story. I watch TV reruns quite happily (even of mysteries), but I would rarely, if ever, watch or re-watch a sporting event whose outcome I already knew. Reality TV competitions fall somewhere in between, depending on format and style, but Top Chef is closer to the game end of the spectrum than the story end… at least in my mind.
(I’m actually beginning to get worried about the Keeper of the Portcullis©!)
I have no problem knowing how a story ends. This is why I tend to reread stories and novels I like. It’s not about the big OMG TWIST! at the end. It’s about the characters, the environments, and the situations.
Bill:
It’s 2 a.m. here in ND. If he isn’t already, PZ should be snoozing, given his schedule lately.
TLC:
I have a problem remembering how a story ends (an odd cognitive quirk for a lit major!), which is why I can reread stories and novels I like so happily and successfully. But if the half-remembered study I mentioned @733 is correct, I’d probably enjoy my rereading anyway!
“I know all
There is to know
About The Crying Game….”
;^)
Bill,
He’ll be in bed by now, I hope.
—
KotP doesn’t have much of a ring to it, but it brings to mind a recently-received letter signed by the POOTY Coordinator, which amused me.
(Police Officer of the Year)
—
Re uplift; I suspect some people have a problem with the concept because it would constitute Playing God and Upsetting the Natural Order.
Ermm… HTML FAIL @733 (in the block quote): “…like them.” —> “…like them.”
<sigh>
Yes, and so, evidently, should I! ‘Night, all….
theophontes,
It’s the cow’s face that sells it, for me.
Caine,
If it ever happens, they’ll find out that they can learn to live with it. I know I have.
So how do we wake him up from here? I watch movies–there must be some way to hack into his alarm clock, unless Hollywood has steered me wrong somehow.
And I think it’s important that we continue to talk about rabbits in the new thread, just in case razzlefrog comes back to check on us. I think it would be hilarious if he came to the next episode of the thread to find more rabbit-related discussion. I really want this to happen.
Chili for 35.
I can do that.
Hmmm, this quick cheap bread-yeast apple-mead is tasting pretty good.
Torn between the temptation to keep ‘taste testing it’ and let it ferment a bit longer.
There is definitely a noticeable alcohol content.
feralboy12:
Ummm, well, we could talk about the uplift of rabbits, specifically, Bugs Bunny.
Pharyngula’s Operator Of Portcullis, Yoda, Head Executioner, And Dictator
Unfortunately one of the methods of a ‘clean kill’ is also one of the biggest myths about no suffering, to whit, any kill which involves breaking the animal’s neck.
Breaking the neck causes quadriplegia, not death. Death takes several minutes, by suffocation due to paralysis of respiration. The reason it looks like a clean kill is because the animal is paralysed; it cannot demonstrate its distress. There is still blood flow to the brain and it is therefore still conscious. And that is barbaric.
Or we could discuss the various personalities and motivations of the rabbits in Watership Down.
Whether or not it’s done “quickly and cleanly for my food,” you can decide whether you should kill them at all. It would be help if you at least entertained the possibility of not killing them in your arguments, because then they could be valid. If you don’t, they aren’t.
No, it doesn’t. They can’t be evaluated on the same scale. If you claimed “Lions don’t offer each other universal healthcare, but they should,” any reasonable person would immediately understand how utterly ridiculous that is. They can’t do it, so it would be pointless to suggest that they should or should not do it, or to consider their actions “morally wrong” because we’ve made up an unreasonable standard. However, humans generally can think about it and decide whether or not they should eat certain animals.
I don’t expect you to satisfy me. You ought to be willing to reevaluate your own sense of morality by learning and trying to understand others’ views. I do expect that much, if you expect me to believe you have a “sense of morality,” which at the moment I do.
Sandra sure is persistent.
Re: what the hell the point of Prop 8 was.
Re: her bigotry.
Re: her constant use of legal babble to justify her arguments.
Re: the issue coming down to basic human rights.
Re: the fact she contradicted herself by noting how religious groups were not providing services to gay people therefore it was discrimination.
Re: human rights and how women are born with those basic rights, contrary to what she claims.
Re: how women gained rights not by voting, but by jurisprudence.
Re: moral prerogatives and duties.
Re: her clear lack of caring for supporting gay marriage unless a whole load of legal battles are fought.
Re: how gay marriage discriminates on the basis of gender instead of orientation.
I really really need help tackling this. I think I may have had her on the ropes before, but now she seems to have gotten more confident after that last exchange. Please please help! :)
Much thanks,
James
You might have a point, but I don’t know if I have the energy to argue this with you tonight.
(Jesus, I sound like The Walton. Speaking of which, where is that guy? I miss his presence.)
I will say one thing though, thank you for not painting me up as a psychotic monster and comparing me to misogynists and slave owners.
CR:
Tell that to SC.
You know, we finally got to a point where somewhat normal chat has been restored, so maybe restarting the whole fucking argument all over again isn’t the best idea. Just a thought.
It’s OK Caine, I ain’t bitin.
This is damn good mead. What exactly is wrong with using bread yeast for brewing again? Anyone?
TLC:
Eh, there isn’t anything wrong with it per se, it’s just not ideal for brewing or wine making. Most people use specialized yeasts because they are after a specific flavour, etc.
As far as I know, mead is one of the things where the type of yeast really doesn’t matter.
Bill @738, since I went to FireFox, when I cut and paste portions of comments with markup, I generally right-click the selection and select “view selection source”, and then copy that.
(Lazy, I am)
—
Apropos — this piece in the opinion section of Australia’s national broadcaster: Slaughterhouse: the confronting truth about our dinner delights.
(Title speaks for itself)
That’s good to know, because I’m really enjoying this shit right now.
Does anyone know how alcoholic I can actually get something to ferment with just bread yeast? One place I checked said a measly 4 percent ABV, while that gotmead website said a more respectable 12 percent.
Judging by this stuff… There’s a pretty healthy amount. I am definitely feeling a buzz, and I haven’t had that much.
The taste is something else… appley, but not ‘apple cider’, or at least not as I know it. The color is a cloudy greenish-yellow. It still has some sweetness to it.
As before, I’m doing everything by smell, taste, and instinct with a healthy dose of guesswork, so exact measurements are beyond my ken.
I just know this shit tastes good.
Oy, I have to get some snoozing in myself, g’night all.
Okay: “you too, SC.” Better?
I’m not sure what normality on TET would be like, but personally I’m opposed to it if it involves ignoring bullshit that gets posted here. Since TLC seems to be done bullshitting for now, you won’t hear any more about it from me.
TLC, IIRC, yeast is yeast (sugar → alcohol + crud + carbon dioxide), and bread yeast is selected for rapid generation of carbon dioxide (so bread rises quickly).
Also, different yeasts have different tolerances to ethanol, so they can yield a higher booziness factor.
[after refresh]
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/bakers-yeast-alcohol-yield-201081/
@ NuMad
Yeah, they should have added a non-return valve to the collection pipe!
John Morales: Thank you.
Incidentally, it did not take me long to find this: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/turning-pee-into-alcohol-182953/
StarStuff! Because f**k you, that’s why said
Feel free to vent, because that sounds awful. What is happening? And why the short notice?
TLC: <blink>
(I wish I could be sure that it’s a joke, but…)
Fuck you, seriously fuck you.
That person was me. I have a name.
And my suffering was real, no need to put scare quotes around it.
I think that by now you have shown enough that you don’t actually care.
Your position on hunting rabbits for meat is based on naive fairy-tale cartoon versions of nature at best and you have not missed a single opportunity to demonize, dehumanize and dismiss people.
So, from now on I’ll consider that whenever you argue in favour of other people and against suffering that you actually don’t care about those people and their suffering.
Seems like your actual goal is not to make this world a better place, but to put everybody down with you on top as the celebrated queen living in the castle of High Moral Horse.
Not eating meat smaller than the head
Well, not exactly. Quail and doves come to mind as well as the quite disgusting traditions of hunting small migratory birds by the thousand.
Responsible farming
That’s why I switched to organic.
Yes, I know about all the woo and I wished I could get a possibility I’d call “sensible, sustainable farming”, but when the alternatives are like this, well, that’s what I chose.
I get our stuff from an organic goat farm that cooperates with other local organic farms. They butcher and process the animals nd they do so on demand. Their saussages are delicious, and their taste doesn’t come from the chemistry-kit.
This offers me lots of things I care about: environmentalism, animal wellfare, fair prices for farmers and regional development.
dandelion
Most. Delicious.
It’s a regional speciality and until a few years ago people from outside the area would look at you and ask you why you were eating weed.
So, let me treat you to the recipe:
Fresh, young dandelion, before it blooms.
Abount a pound of it (you might want to wear gloves for cleaning.
3-4 hard boiled eggs, diced
mild honey vinegar
salt, peper, garlic, onions.
Many people also mash up a boiled popato and add it to the dressing.
Fry bacon cubes, don’t be shy with oil since that’s going into your vinaigrette. I personally also shortly fry the onion, I don’t like them raw.
Mix the clean dandelion with everything except the bacon.
Add the hot, hot, hot sizzling bacon on top and mix quickly (that will “soften” the dandelion a bit.
Serve with Bratkartoffeln.
TLC
Hmm, why shouldn’t it be legal to sell thos knives as long as you’re honest in where they came from?
When pricing, really consider the time you spend on each. Would you work for that wage for a company?
Don’t argue “oh but I like what I’m doing”. Sure you do and that should be important, but that doesn’t change the problem of decent wages.
Ideally, such a business is a fair exchange: you charge your client a fair price, you’re not milking them. But they should also pay you a fair price. Asking you to work for 2$/hour isn’t fair.
It also ruins the prices for people who need to make a living of those things.
I know from professional crafters that they hate nothing more than “houswives with a sewing machine” who will offer an item where they spent 20$ on material and then 6 hours of work for 30$ “because it’s their hobby”.
@ James
Sorry, but you will have to wait a few hours before I have time to reply to all of that. It does seem you are in the deep end, given that you have so recently turned your back on that whole make-believe world. These things are not easy. At least if you want to move beyond the simplistic “goddidit” arguments.
Now that you have come out as an atheist, also consider what that means to you. It is not just about turning your back on belief in an imaginary sky-god. It also means turning your back on a simplistic and superstitious worldview. (And for what little it is, I am sure the religious worldview gives goddists some sense direction at least.)
You now have to re-evaluate your worldview and your own value system. This is no small undertaking. You might feel a bit overwhelmed at times (now perhaps?). Know that this is perfectly natural and we are here 24/7 to help you. The horde never sleeps.
Rawr. OK I’m starting to feel drunk. This is good stuff. I will be doing this again. Repeatedly.
Also, nice recipe Giliell. I might be asking you for it again soon, though I think I can remember the basics.
Dandelion greens are a plentiful free food and pretty damn good if harvested before flowering.
I also intend to experiment with stinging nettle, both for food and string.
Drive-by posting of miscellaneous science:
‘Invisibility’ cloak could protect buildings from earthquakes http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-02-invisibility-cloak-earthquakes.html
.
“Military service changes personality, makes vets less agreeable” http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-02-military-personality-vets-agreeable.html (I might add that the Swedish military require that personnel that has been abroad on UN missions return home for a period before going off on a new overseas assignment. This is because prolonged overseas deployment far from home apparently tends to change people for the worse)
.
Related news item: “Does the military make the man or does the man make the military?” http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-11-military.html
Oh, but I agree that effective population control by hunting can and does happen in various places accross the world. I have run a few simulations in vortex myself once, to determine a sustainablele ‘harvest’ rate for controlling wild boar populations. My comments were discussing the situation as it is where I live, in Belgium, where hunters use ‘population control’ as an excuse for practicing their ‘sport’.
There are two things that really tick me off about the militant vegetarians.
1. It’s all about the charismatic megafauna. All the mice and rats and insects and birds who die from poison, ploughing and habitat destruction – they’re apparently nothing. All the ecosystems destroyed by monocropping for that hippie-beloved soy? All the fertilisers made from oil or strip mined from guano, that runs off and smothers the fish in algal blooms? Don’t mention them, or the pretty denial will go away!
2. They’re so first world centric. You CANNOT have a vegan no-kill peasant or hunter-gatherer culture. There’s never been one in the entire history of all the world’s cultures. Pretty much every peasant culture ever has meat animals to consume the scraps (pigs, guinea pigs, chickens, dogs, fish). They eat the “pest” animals that they keep off the crops (bunnies, snails, locusts, small birds). They hunt the animals that prey on their domestic animals (foxes, wolves, big cats). Even the Jains eat dairy, and sorry, that involves killing a calf. Killing by neglect or starvation doesn’t make it magically not your responsibility.
I don’t care if your personal choice is to be a vegetarian; there are many considered responses to our current agribusiness horror. I think that’s one reasonable choice among many. Fine. Reduce your excess footprint as you think works best for you. But you don’t get to claim a super moral high ground over it as if your diet is so superior.
Giliell,
You have me intrigued, because my Upper-Austrian grandmother of Hungarian and Polish descent. with some Czech and German thrown in for good measure ate a lot of dandelion and potato (and nettles) dishes. You said it was a regional thing. Which region?
Alethea:
I would have thought that’s not necessary, though it might be optimal.
Bill Dauphin:
“My brothers-in-law have guns, and I’ve been to shooting ranges with them: I think guns can be fascinating as machines, and as technology”
.
I feel much the same. I am fascinated by them the same way I am fascinated by rockets, or aircraft engines. Intricate machinery that make a lot of noise and channel energy in a precise manner. Too bad that some people go over the top with the gun interest. And when it fuses with opaque beliefs about conspiracies and out right paranoia it gets ugly. In my country, weapon licenses can be withdrawn if a person shows symptoms of mental disease, which I am thankful for (the laws, not the disease)..
echidna
I’m from the South-West, But here’s a disclaimer: I have no idea if always was regional or if it became regional.
One hint might be the name:
German “Löwenzahn” reflects the shape, like English dandelion.
French “pisenlit” and the dialect “Bettseicher” reflect that it makes you pee.
But on the other hand, Germans stopped eating swedes in the 1960’s. They were the food that made them survive the 2 world wars and the years afterwards and when the economy boomed, it was deemed a “poor people’s food” and faded out of memory. I discovered them in Ireland and brought home some seeds. My grandpa immediatly recognized them (and grew them with delight. If you can have something else, they become very tasty).
They regained some popularity in recent years with the “countryside-cooking” hype, but the fact is that people are not so much rediscovering something than discovering something new.
So, I don’t think it unreasonable that this might have happened to dandelion, too. After all, it’s hard to imagine that people North of here would have missed free food in spring when resources are scarce.
From last night, after I drifted off –
cicely (The Clever) – Hey, I always read you even when skipping quickly through a topic. Like Caine said, worth far more than two cents. (smile)
And no, in response to a recent snarky email, Caine and I are not joined at the hip sister and brother. We just seldom seem to disagree and when we do we tend to act like adults.
Oh, and a free tip to those dumber than me*, try not to tangle up with the dog (Labradoofus) and fall on your recently surgeried side up against the marble edge of a bureau. Ouch.
*Box of rocks level.
@ Jeffery D
Ouch! (Get well soon.)
@ TLC
Easy Tiger! I have brewed a bit, and have always succumbed to having “just a taste” before it is really ready. One ends up with just a fraction of the bottles that one started with and regretting the lack of patience.
There is a quick and easy way to make alcohol with melons, that involves making a hole in the top of a melon, removing seeds and adding back yeast and sugar and melon pulp. Plug hole and wait. (This is a common trick throughout Africa. It is rediculously easy but be careful and check with someone experienced before doing this at home. I find no mention online.)
Have a look also at Making Melomels (Fruit Meads). Example Linky.
Ouch JeffreyD.
If I bite my lip again today I’m cutting it off.
Rev, I know what that is like. There is so little room in the mouth that one bite leads to many others. Maybe chew gum to keep your mouth slightly open? OK, makes you look stupid, but so does a bleeding lip.
Well i found something that makes me not worry about my lip or really any problem I have as they pale in comparison to these people.
The drug called krocodil. Do not search on that unless you have a strong stomach and no addiction triggers.
Holy fucking shit.
Sorry. Bad phrasing on my part. At the time, there was some fantastic research ongoing regarding predator/prey relationships. Much of which had not yet trickled down to those in the field and, more important, those making actual decisions regarding ecosystem management, especially in national parks and national forests.
Note that the ‘recipe’ does not suggest actually eating it.
When I was younger, I participated in a couple of hog butcherings (and I will still eat scrapple). On one of the farms, they got the hot absolutely shit-faced drunk and only then killed it. The meat tasted the same. I don’t know if the hog died happy, but it probably felt very little pain.
There is a at least one other; I could do it again, but I plan to avoid it.
I thought it was, “Imagine the Aspic possibilities of an entirely spherical cow?”
And (trust me on this one, I know from personal experience) pockets are not a good alternative when raiding a raspberry patch. Especially when wearing khaki trousers.
Love to eat those mousies,
Mousies but I love to eat.
Bite they little heads off,
and nibble on they tiny feet.
(the above poem, from a Kliban cartoon, is said by a cat)
Sorry, what? I’m trying to get my BetaMax to work again.
Tough thing is, there are so many things that trigger people. For instance, until a few days ago, I had no idea that discussions of Jell-o recipes would trigger a memory of a trip to a church.
Here is a good recipe. You may have to scale it down slightly.
It being your lip? or the proverbial ‘it’?
Hy.
Wanted to say good afternoon, but after googling krokodil… it ain’t good any more.
Well I’m not biting “it”. That would take some serious flexibility, and while I’m in fairly good shape, I’m the most inflexible person in the universe.
i warned you
Caine, Fleur du Mal #746
What about the motivations of the author? ‘Cos it’s my belief that the whole business of working the rabbit language into the story was to let them say “eat shit” in a children’s book.
@ James (The “you” in the following refers to Sandra not yourself. You might have to unravel the “you”s and the “she”s.)
No need to go into the technical jargon. As I mentioned before, if it is not bible babble that she is going to hide behind, it will be the minutia of obscure
vogonlegalistic points. Take a pragmatic view. Are gay people going to be treated in exactly the same way as hetero’s? If “no”, then we still have a fuckup. She is still stigmatising gay people by not allowing exactly the same social standing (in this case marriage, not just a supposedly equivalent “domestic partnership”)To get a grip about how fucked up her thinking is, read what she says after substituting every mention of “gay people” with the word “black people”, etc.
Homosexuals always had these rights. It is not a matter of law, but common human decency. Are our morals or basic human rights to be determined by the vagaries of law? The law in Apartheid South Africa, for example, said that black and white people could not marry either. Would she still be so fucking flippant if she was prevented from full social recognition of her relationship to the (other race) love of her life?
{“you” = Sandra} Strange. You appear to be obstinately or intolerantly devoted to your anti-gay prejudices. Perhaps you have overcome your racist prejudice. If this is the case, then you will see that the substitution exercise I gave above teases out your bigotry wrt gay people. Most people hate to be called out on their bigotry, as they understand it to be an antisocial thing. But instead of self-criticism they pretend it does not apply to them. You should be offended that I call your bigotry. Better that, than that you continue your denial. Does your religion help you in that endeavor?
Simple. Agree that gays have full entitlement to exactly the same treatment and institutions as every other person. Unequivocally. Do not hide behind “ACTUAL law” when we are discussing our own personal positions. Your own humanity is being squashed by your deference to so called (certainly not moral) authority, be it the iniquitous American legal system or your holy babble (by which I mean the bible).
Fuck Prop 8. What is your position? Don’t hide behind iniquitous legality to hide your own bigotry. 100% equality or fuck off.
And you don’t recognise this as a form of institutionalised discrimination? If your constitution is endorsing this, then it needs to be amended. It is waaay past its sell-by-date. (Have you wondered why the US constitution is no longer being used as an example by other countries? The whole world is getting tired of entrenched bigotry. Civilised countries are turning to constitutions like Canada’s or South Africa’s for inspiration and guidance. I strongly recommend you do the same.)
Your current system IS built unfair – as the current debate is indicating. Why should people be treated as second class citizens for mere accidents of birth?
Homosexuals do not have the ability to change it. They must go and stock up on “amalites” next? The bloody votes are certainly not working.
. What a steaming pile of privilege right there.
Again using the example of Apartheid, would you still “support the system”? The law classed certain citizens as less equal. (If you are not prepared to answer the hypothetical, can you at least try and see that treating certain citizens as second class (such as gays in the USA) is a repugnant situation. Stop hiding behind the system. At least open your eyes, then speak out against iniquity where you see it.
I find this utterly disgusting and offensive. Surely you understand this is morally repugnant? If nineteen states allowed slavery (or some other horrible stance) would you finally be personally offended? What would it take if the current iniquities are not enough to stir you?)
{I would like to pass on this.}
The laws of the state should in no way be dictated by religious bigots (as is currently the case). The US is, for now, not a theocracy.
NEW THREAD!