You may recall that a Christian group in Bath called “Healing on the Streets” was going about claiming that faith could heal all sorts of ailments: “Ulcers, Depression, Allergies, Fibromyalgia, Asthma, Paralysis, Crippling Disease, Phobias, Sleeping disorders or any other sickness”. They got slapped down for making false claims, as they should have been.
Brendan O’Neill is outraged — this is a violation of freedom of religion! And then he goes on to make a really good analogy.
This is an outrageous attack on freedom of religion, on the basic right of people to express central tenets of their faith. Of course, the authorities have a role to play in keeping a check on the scientific claims made by businesses in their ads. If, for example, Pepsi suddenly announced that a can of its pop can cure backache, that should be challenged; likewise, companies that spout homeopathic claptrap can reasonably be asked to provide evidence for their claims. But the state and its offshoots have no business whatsoever sticking their snouts into the expression of a religious conviction, into the public articulation of faith, which is precisely what the HOTS leaflet was. Monitoring claims that are made in an explicitly scientific fashion is fine, but policing the expression of an inner conviction, of a profound belief in the healing qualities of God, is ludicrous and authoritarian. Not content with policing the public square, the ASA, it seems, now wants to monitor men’s souls too.
Well, yes, that’s a really good example. If Pepsi profited by selling more cans of pop by plastering them with misleading medical claims, that would be wrong, and it would be society’s responsibility to act to protect its more gullible members from predatory lies. But when HOTS tries to profit in its evangelical efforts by lying about their medical benefits, that isn’t offensive behavior because…? “Inner convictions” doesn’t cut it. There are plenty of scams going around with devout proponents — homeopathy, balance bracelets, libertarianism, crystal healing — but we don’t exempt them from laws against fraudulent advertising because their middle management is willing step up and say “I really, really believe”. Why does religion get this free pass?
Here’s another thought experiment. What if the CEO of Pepsi has a conversion experience, sees a vision of Jesus, and Jesus says unto him, “Lo, high fructose corn syrup is the true nectar of the gods, it’s all we drink up here in heaven. It’s what makes us immortal!” Could Pepsi now slap a new label on their cans that says “Now with eternal life!”?
What if all of their ads featured a charismatic preacher with big teeth and big hair and tap-dancing angels all singing about how Pepsi was Jesus’ favorite drink? Would that be sufficient evidence of “inner conviction” and justify any medical claims Pepsi might want to make?
Libertarianism… teeheehee oh pz
Yo, PZ: blockquote needed up there.
We know the answer to this problem, of course: everyone needs to establish their own personal religion* so that every thought everyone has is protected as religious.
That’ll solve this bullshit tout de suite.
“Fire me? Looking at gloryhole goat porn while at work is a tenet of my faith! You can’t fire me! I cite Obama and the Catholic Bishops! You can’t make me do my job! It’s unAmerican!”
*In practice, of course, every theist is practicing their own version of whatever religion; most are just enjoying the protection of group affiliation while doing so.
If you tweet these, you are an apostate and an infidel, crimes which are punishable by death.
On your birthday, I will say that I have loved the rebel in you, that you’ve always been a source of inspiration to me, and that I do not like the halos of divinity around you. I shall not pray for you.
On your birthday, I find you wherever I turn. I will say that I have loved aspects of you, hated others, and could not understand many more.
On your birthday, I shall not bow to you. I shall not kiss your hand. Rather, I shall shake it as equals do, and smile at you as you smile at me. I shall speak to you as a friend, no more.
Kashgari’s Twitter account, @Hmzmz, has been shut down.
Malaysia may repatriate Saudi who faces death penalty for tweets
Saudi writer Hamza Kashgari fled Saudi Arabia after a trio of tweets about the prophet Muhammad brought death threats. Malaysian police apprehended him en route to New Zealand, where he was to request asylum.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/08/twitter-aflame-with-fatwa-against-saudi-writer-hamza-kashgari.html
Impersonating a lawyer is a crime. What if someone got busted for doing this, then claimed that in their religion, lawyers are revered as heroes, and it’s a sacred rite to pose as a lawyer and give legal advice?
Of course that would be asinine and still wildly illegal. So why should anyone give a free pass to religions practicing medicine without a license?
When they’re promising a specific person something, without the pathetic excuses made for why God never seems to do anything, that’s when it becomes fraud. Of course they can say that God may cure them, or some such thing, but when they promise something that they can’t and don’t deliver, it becomes fraudulent.
Fine, it’s fraudulent to say that the earth is 6000 years old and that “macroevolution” didn’t occur. Not illegal, though, that’s part of the freedom of religion, of society, indeed.
If a faith healer told an amputee that for a donation of $1000 dollars, prayer will be offered and then his arm will regrow, does O’Neill really think that religion should protect you? Sure, the ads weren’t that strong, but they were on that side of the fraud spectrum. Where it cuts off is going to take negotiations and developments in case law.
Clearly, though, religion can’t be an excuse for every sort of fraud done on an individual level.
Glen Davidson
Wait, so homeopathy isn’t a religion?
@7
No, since Mr. O’Neill doesn’t believe it. I think that’s the sole criterion at play here.
Tap dancing angels are most likely on coke.
rnilsson, do you mean “cocaine” or “Coca-Cola”?
(Badabum, TING…)
The sad part is that this happened in the UK. In the USA nothing is done about these liars while they rake in millions.
Trebuchet,
in the US the FCC has ruled on cases like this in the past, there’s this 1975 case about a travel agency organising psychic surgery tours to the Philippines I linked to in the original thread.
Woo peddlers are usually very smart in what they promise, there is usually some kind of fine print. The Bath case was compounded by a high degree of stupidity.
The commentariat over there is sympathetic, from what little I was able to wade through. A fair amount of “I bet they wouldn’t dare do that to an Islamic group!” BS as well.
… so I guess we’re really lucky homeopathy doesn’t have its basis in religious conviction. Otherwise we wouldn’t be able to say anything bad about that either, no matter how many people it scammed out of savings and health.
“Eternal life” isn’t that far off from “Come Alive” which was the Pepsi slogan back in the 60’s.
a little bit of googling led to this link, a class action lawsuit wrt homoepathic remedies being filed in Southern California. (to which I can’t link here as “lawyers and settlements” apparently is on the spam blacklist, which is fair enough)
The FCC aside (I don’t think they have enough personnel anyway), but the FDA also comes into play regarding medicine, though some homeopathic medicine is not subject to it.
Quoting from the aforementioned link:
So while there is always room for improvement, it’s not like there’s nothing being done about this in the US
It’s just religious privilege again.
not only has religious ideology been given a pass for hundreds of years, but the practitioners have of course, lived under the impression that it will be, so they expect it TO be.
when, all of a sudden, that erroneous privilege is taken away from them, why they cry just like any other group that has had its erroneously granted privilege taken away throughout history.
it’s sad that humans are generally so predictable, but there it is.
Malaysian police apprehended him en route to New Zealand, where he was to request asylum.
buggeration.
He was certainly headed in the right direction. Sorry he didn’t quite make it here.
:(
Totally besides the point, maybe irrelevant but, Pepsi’s CEO is a woman, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra_Nooyi
Just saying you know, since the default assumption is male for CEOs.
Unsurprising. But this story Derby men jailed for giving out gay death call leaflets suggests otherwise. In other related good news stories from the UK: Christian hotel owners lose gay couple appeal, some Christian bigots have lost a case; and in this one: Bideford Town Council prayers ruled unlawful, the High Court has ruled that local councils have no powers to put prayers on meeting agendas, causing bishops to foam at the mouth – but in this case, the government has promised to change the law so they can.
I have a personal conviction that swallowing my semen can cure cancer. I’m not saying this scientifically, but as a matter of faith.
Surely Mr. O’Neill will not object to the leaflets I have posted proclaiming this. They also provide my email address. Please send photos when inquiring.
Totally besides the point, maybe irrelevant
The redundancy department called for you. Twice.
<Apple joke goes here>
They even have a dead Messiah.
Jesus only drinks diet. I mean, have you seen him? He’s pretty skinny. Maybe he should visit his mother more often.
@KG
RE: the council ruling, Local Govt Minister Eric Pickles has been beating that topic with his as-per-usual idiot stick. (For those who don’t know it’s a ruling on prayers that are part of the agenda in council meetings, hence mandated, not on prayers before/after council business)
I have posted this on the Telegraph blog. I hope that doesn’t offend any blog protocols- If so, I apologise
To my surprise, I find myself nearly aligned with Mr O’Neill, though not for his reasons
First of all, it is absurd to cry “Freedom of Religion” over this. Guaranteed freedom of religion means that you can believe whatever you like. I doesn’t mean you can DO anything your religion encourages you to. No doubt there are Muslim extremists who can make good theological arguments for slaying infidels. There is no civic harm in this, provide they don’t act on it, or incite others to do so. But you can’t argue that if the law prohibits slaying of infidels, it infringes their religious freedom.
So I don’t think it is freedom of religion which is at issue here, it is freedom of speech. I am usually quite a fan of the ASA, but there is clearly a conflict between the suppression of false advertising claims, and freedom of speech.
I suggest that it could be resolved by restricting the definition of advertising to those statements which advance commercial claims. As far as I can see, there was no commercial element in the HOTS promotion, and for this reason the ASA should have left them alone – until they are shown to be accepting payment in connection with these claims.
Ichthyic, that’s the Department of Redundancy Department to you.
@27
I think that could get into some tricky issues about what counts as “commercial.” If a Scientologist offers a free, pseudo-scientific personality test, would it be alright for them to advertise it as a legit depression screening?
Those tests are really free, and you can walk right out the door afterwards, but they’re going to try and upsell you pretty hard. I imagine these HOTS guys would do the same thing. “Wasn’t that healing great?! Here’s the collection plate/volunteer signup sheet, no pressure *cough* *cough* Sure is great you got healed, huh? I bet you’re pretty grateful.”
Dayum, that Kashgari guy can write. My poetic consciousness is flickering with the beauty of his words.
Which, according to legend, was mistranslated into Mandarin to claim that “Pepsi-Cola brings your ancestors back from the dead.”
One of the reasons religion gets its special privilege when it comes to making claims is that it admits upfront that it’s based on “faith.” And by that, they mean religious faith — the commitment on the part of the believer to interpret and re-interpret and excuse and twist and bend and turn every single possible event into either confirmation that the faith belief was true, or conviction that the result doesn’t mean the faith belief wasn’t true.
If you’ve willfully and knowingly entered into that sort of contract, it is never possible to sue for breach of contract. Prayer always works for broad enough definitions of what it means to “work.” If the definition includes both an increase of suffering (bringing you closer to God!) and even death (bringing you even closer to God!), then you can never complain about any outcome.
God always “heals” you. That’s because faith doesn’t know what it looks like if you’re not “healed.”
The problem of course is that the religious LOVE to dance around on what they mean by “faith.” Sometimes they use the term like a secular version of ‘confidence’ or ‘trust’ and it sounds like you’re really just taking a minimal, ordinary leap of reason and why yes there IS something it will look like if the cure doesn’t work. Your eyesight will improve.
Then, of course, when no miracle occurs they slip back the religious meaning of “faith.” If you’re still sick in body you’re either better in spirit — or you were too sick in spirit for the cure to work. It’s your own fault. You didn’t believe hard enough. Or else you misinterpreted what it means for the eyesight to improve — it improved on the spiritual level. Right.
God can’t lose. Religion can get away with the special rules because there’s the assumption that the person going in to the system will play along with a system where God can never lose.
Don’t the Mormons own a good chunk of Pepsi?
Between that and the fabulous Coke ad proposed by Bill Hicks, I think the future of advertising is bright.
What, bish’s are not currently allowed to foam? Well given how much foaming they have been doing in recent years I’d say it’s time for a Police sweep on the scofflaws.
There’s no point expecting the religious to actually use logic. We should be kind to them, for they are burdened by being differently-truthed. It’s an illness. Love the idiot, hate the idiocy.
Oh, who am I kidding? Lock up the bastards.
I thought the mistranslation was from ‘Coke Adds Life’.
Phase 1: Collect Underpants.
Phase 2: Express profound belief in the healing qualities of God.
Phase 3: Profit!
At last, we know.
22. truthsayer
Heh, Stephen Fry thought of that one already. In Hippotamus, I think…