¿Cree usted que el Gobierno debería tener en cuenta la opinión de la Iglesia sobre el aborto?

Yet another international poll, this time from Argentina.

Do you think the government should take in consideration the (Roman
Catholic) Church’s stance on abortion?

79.5 %
20.5 %

So far the majority seems to think going along with the Vatican’s silly position is all right.


  1. Aaryk says

    Bleh. The poll already has nearly 63,000 votes. Even if we could get around the non-Argentinian IP block, that’s a tough one for even PZ’s militia to handle.

    I’m willing to try though…!

  2. Dr.Strangelove says

    Hide behind 7 proxys. Plenty of sites with proxy info. But /i/ am not an expert. Perhaps some /b/rother out there could enlighten us on the specifics.

  3. Lowell says

    I got the following English translation of the poll question from Google translate:

    The government aims to promote a reform to decriminalize abortion. Among other measures, allows abortions to teenagers 16 years without parental consent. The Church has reacted with a tough campaign and noting that in Spain 250,000 babies die each year whether to approve the reform.

    That last part doesn’t make much sense to me, but I voted No anyway, since I don’t think any government should give any weight to the Church’s stance on abortion (or anything else, for that matter).

  4. CS says

    Hey, this is from SPAIN not from Argentina

    Noticed the .ES in the domain? Argentina would be .com.ar

  5. Doug says

    Couldn’t vote, wasn’t registered.

    I suppose a lot of people agree with the church’s position that it’s okay to rape your stepdaughter and force her to give birth to twins even if it kills her. Maybe the church has such a strong position against abortion that they recommend raping boys so there is no messy conception issue to deal with.

  6. littlejohn says

    I don’t read Spanish, but it declined my vote. I did recognize a word that resembled “fraudulent.” I’m in the U.S.

  7. says

    Yeah, I got an internal server error in OmniWeb, and some error I can’t decipher in Firefox.

    I tried using ninjacloak.com (a web-proxy) and that didn’t help, so I’m guessing they require registration.

  8. Lowell says

    Correction to #6. I should’ve said I intended to vote No. Like others here, the poll didn’t allow me to vote. Said something about registration.

  9. Daneel says

    @Lowel, it says “The Church reacted with a hard publicity campaing warning that 250.000 fetuses will die in Spain per year if this reform is approved”

    It’s Spain, not Argentina :( Here, our stupid and quasimafiosa president said she would never legalize abortion soon after elected.

  10. Oliver says

    My translation:

    The Government is trying to push through a reform decriminalising abortion. Amongst other measures, allowing 16 year-olds to abort without parental consent. The church has responded with a tough publicity campaign and has advised that in Spain 250 000 foetuses will be terminated every year if the reform goes through.

    It does seem that this is a Spanish, not an Argentinian, poll… but only because of the hysterical statistics about Spanish blastocytes: the .es domain – like .com – tells us nothing about its provenance.

    Oh yeah… that and the coverage of Spanish football teams like Real and Barca elsewhere on the site: no Boca Juniors = not Argentinian.

  11. Insightful Ape says

    This is not from Argentina, PZ. This is from Spain. And here is why: abortion has been legal in Spain for 20 years now. But the law has been confusing, so the socialist government has decided to clean it up, following the recommendation of a research group, making it legal up to 14 weeks gestation. Opposition groups, spearheaded by the Catholic church, are trying to block that, and the right wing popular party has threatened to take the government to court over this.
    What is more reprehensible is the so called “Declaracion de Madrid”, the Madrid Declaration, signed by 2000 people, which says that “scientifically, life begins at conception, because that is when a person’s genetic code is completed”. It has been opposed by a different statement, signed by 1000 people, saying that life scientifically does not start at any given moment.
    I guess we will have to wait and see who prevails.

  12. Alex Deam says

    Yep this is definitely from Spain. It could easily have been from Argentina, Wikipedia tells me that approximately 76% of people in both those countries are Roman Catholic, which also explains the poll results. Wikipedia also tells me that abortion is legal in both countries, but not very liberal.

    Saying that, Wikipedia also says that abortion is not legal in the case of rape in my country (Britain), yet I know this to be false.

  13. jqpublic says

    Here is the text of the error:

    tu voto no se ha computado, porque ya se ha registrado una votación desde esta dirección

    A translation from babelfish:

    your vote has not been computed, because a voting has been registered already from this direction.

    Not sure I entirely understand it. I think its saying that you have already voted, so suck it. But it may simply mean you should register.

  14. says

    The message you get after voting is misleading. It looks like an error, but it actually says your vote has been tallied.

    And yes, this is from Spain, not from Argentina. Even if the .es domain weren’t enough, Telecinco is a TV channel from Spain.

  15. jqpublic says

    Arrrrrggghhhh…. I forgot me typepad password for me last posting on this here bloody message board. But the scalawags sent me ah-nother. Now I can post in full view, while running up the jolly roger. Drink up me hearties!

  16. jqpublic says

    @#19, Andres, I think you overlooked the “no”. Doesn’t “no se ha computado” mean it has not been tallied? I am not a native speaker but I did play one in several high school Spanish class plays.

  17. says

    What is with all the foreign polls? It didn’t try to vote but my answer wouldn’t be no, but hell no! How do you say that in Spanish?

  18. says

    Yes. The poll is from Spain.

    The trouble is that some groups related with the catholic church ideology, have made an aggressive campaign against the changes in the law that the current government is proposing to the congress.

    The signs against the proposed law show a Spanish wildcat that is a protected species, and a child asking: Who protects me?

    You can find an image of this in the link:


    In Spain, catholic church is very strong. Among other things, government collects with the taxes, volunteer contributions for the church.

    Antonio (From México)

  19. says

    Re the comment by Alex Deam – Abortion is not legal in Argentina in the way it is in Spain; it’s only dispensed from criminal prosecution in very specific cases, and then Catholic doctors and nurses will often delay the procedure on purpose, or request (unnecessary) authorization from a judge to perform it, while the case goes public and Catholic mobs harass the mothers (look up “Abortion in Argentina” on Wikipedia). In Argentina most people are nominally Catholic but most of those don’t share the idea that abortion is murder or that it should be banned completely. I get the sense that the “true Catholic” minority is much more vociferous in Spain.

  20. says

    One wonders how the response would change if one switches the question from “el aborto” to same-sex marriage. whether the people in Spain believe that the government should take into account the opinion of the Church over same-sex marriage rather than “el aborto.”

  21. Anonymous Coward says

    I voted from outside the country. But it usually takes several weeks, sometimes months until my IP address changes, and I think they’re probably sensible enough to block most commonly used proxy servers, which means I’ll have to contend with just a single vote, which the site told me in Spanish was registered correctly.

  22. FSMdude says

    Comments #5 and 9:
    /b/ should raid these mofo.

    And for spacecataz, rule #1 and #2, newfag. ;)

  23. JJ says

    @#3. That´s simply not true. Uruguay for example legalized divorce in 1905, compare that to 1970 and 1982 for Spain and Italy. Chile was the last country to do it in 2004, but even here a couple could ask for a nullification. The influence of the catholic church here is relatively important here of course ( although i dont believe it is greater than ,for example, evangelicals influence in USA during Bush) but a divorce it is a pretty common legal procedure.

  24. Joel says

    Please help this poll.

    Do you think the Iowa Legislature should debate a constitutional amendment on same-sex marriage this session?

    It’s currently:
    Yes = 62.6
    No = 37.4

  25. DJav says

    Just one thing:
    The poll seems to be from Spain, not Argentina. I live in Argentina and I never heared about Telecinco.es around here, and the “.es” is kind of sugestive.
    If I hear of a poll as stupid as this one on this latitudes, I’ll let you know, PZ!
    Anyway, the poll results are a bit pathetic. I used to have a better opinion of Spanish people.

  26. DJav says

    How do you say “hell, no!” in Spanish?
    Infierno, no! just doesn’t sound right. I think it would be more apropriate something like Que no, mierda! o Joder, no!

  27. Andyo says

    Posted by: Oliver | April 7, 2009 6:23 PM
    It does seem that this is a Spanish, not an Argentinian, poll… but only because of the hysterical statistics about Spanish blastocytes: the .es domain – like .com – tells us nothing about its provenance.

    I’m pretty sure that the .es domain is for Spain. They don’t use .com.xx like Latin American countries.

  28. Andyo says

    Since you brought up Argentina, it might just be the most progressive Latin American country regarding religion at least (perhaps only behind Chile?). They have been running a collective apostasy campaign! Yay! I wish my country had that, or has that when I decide to go back on vacation.

    I love the slogan too! “No en mi nombre” (Not in my name). Since those sneaky weasels keep books, you need to renounce officially in order not to get counted when the dishonest assholes cite “numbers” to support them.



  29. DJav says

    I’m with JJ@31. Divorce is very common here in Argentina as well, and is very well viewed. The Catholic Church is very powerfull here too, but at least the teaching of evolution in classrooms is absolutely unchalenged here.

  30. Andyo says

    Posted by: DJav | April 7, 2009 10:03 PM

    How do you say “hell, no!” in Spanish?
    Infierno, no! just doesn’t sound right. I think it would be more apropriate something like Que no, mierda! o Joder, no!

    Interestingly, for that particular phrase, it seems to be different in different regions/countries. Those you listed are mostly for Spanish Spanish. In other parts one could say “ni cagando”, whose literal translations would be even funnier (“not even taking a shit”). I don’t know which regions exactly use that, but I use it a lot.

  31. DJav says

    Hey PZ! Would you mind posting something about “Apostasía Colectiva” (Colective Apostasy) in Argentina? It would be great to have some international publicity, and would mean a lot for many people around here.

  32. DJav says

    Andyo@38: Nice one! I didn’t know that expresion, but I’ll use it as often as I can from now on. Here in Argentina we say “Ni en pedo” which literally means “not in a fart” (which doesn’t make much sense) but “en pedo” is a slang expression for drunk, so it really means “not even drunk”.

  33. Jeff K. says


    In Spain I always heard “ni de conña” for “no way” or “hell no.”

  34. mayhempix says

    As a denizen of Buenos Aires I would like to point out that it was the law against divorce that was the catalyst for the of end of traditional marriage in this city. People would just go live with someone else and say they were married even though they were committing adultery in the eyes of the Catholic church. This completely undermined any authority the church had and now most who live in urban Buenos Aires are non-religious and many are atheists. It also didn’t help that the church sided with military junta during the Dirty War and were complicit in the murders

    The church here still preys on the poor and uneducated. Meanwhile the evangelicals are pouring in competing with the priests and cardinals for their unwashed souls.

  35. mayhempix says

    The city of Buenos Aires was also the first Latin American city to legalize same sex unions and it is now one the main vacation destinations for gays with boutique hotels that openly advertise for their business.

  36. Andyo says

    Here’s the Reuters article in English, http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSTRE5235X420090304

    The official website, by the way, http://www.apostasiacolectiva.org“, is so similar to your regular atheist campaign site we’ve seen in the English worlds in the past few years, with the SAME kinds of kooks and deluded faithfuls writing the SAME kind of crap. They have a section called “insults” just for them, ha ha.

    Another interesting tidibit from the other link I posted above:

    Un grupo de manifestantes entregó ayer en el Arzobispado porteño una nómina de 1085 personas que quieren desvincularse para siempre de los registros de bautismo.

    “A group of protesters handed over yesterday at the archbishopric of Buenos Aires a list of 1085 persons who want to disassociate forever from the baptism records.”

    All right!

  37. Flea says

    #25 “In Spain, catholic church is very strong. Among other things, government collects with the taxes, volunteer contributions for the church.”
    That is not correct. EVERYBODY’s taxes go to the catholic church, there is just a (very) small % of your total taxes that you can decide whether it goes to the church or “other” social causes.

  38. says

    The poll is from a Spanish TV channel because of the recent catholic movement to ban abortion here. They’re talking a lot and the campaign is agressive: you can see
    here how they compare a protected species (Lynx pardinus, do not pay attention to the wrong Lynx lynx used in the photo) with a little H. sapiens. “What about me?” -say the poster boy- “Save my life!”. Pitiful.

  39. Ramases says

    I got a reading, in Spansih, saying I had already voted, even though I had not.

    Perhaps it is now rigged to do this for people who log in from PZ’s site, or perhaps from outside Argentina.

  40. ChrisKG says

    Thanks for playing. I will resist the temptation to pile scorn upon you and ask you a few simple questions.

    1. If you were aborted, how would you know?

    2. If you were aborted would your loving God torture you forever because you were not properly Baptized? If so, then doesn’t this make your God evil?

    3. Or, would your loving God coddle you in heaven for eternity, and if so, then why is abortion evil?

    Dutifully awaiting you reply.


  41. ChrisKG says

    Ok, two things. I should always check for typos and I should never feed a troll. Sorry.


  42. Jules says

    I just want to point out that I am NOT the Julie @52.

    This has happened twice. I changed my screen name to “Jules” to avoid being mistaken for the born again christian named Julie.

  43. Rey Fox says

    “Fellow Pharynguloids, we are losing this one ! :(”

    Well, we are up against a fairly large nation long under the thumb of the Vatican.

  44. Evangelatheist says

    Spain is suffering cognitive dissonance. Despite the current effort to let the vatican wacks contol the abortion debate, same-sex marriage has been legal there since 2005. Surely the imaginary sky fairy could have rained down fire and brimstone by now. Hmmmmm, could it be…….impotence?!?

  45. says

    Spain is suffering cognitive dissonance. Despite the current effort to let the vatican wacks contol the abortion debate, same-sex marriage has been legal there since 2005. Surely the imaginary sky fairy could have rained down fire and brimstone by now. Hmmmmm, could it be…….impotence?!?

    It isn’t suffering cognitive dissonance; it’s a country full of individuals who disagree with one another

  46. mayhempix says


    Since you clearly believe abortion is murder would you:

    1) execute the women who continue to commit these “murders”?
    2) execute the doctors who continue to perform them?
    3) support the execution of your daughter if you found out she had one?
    4) make it a capital crime to travel to another country to have one?
    5) declare war against those countries that do?
    6) condemn God for the millions of abortions he performs daily?
    7) buy stock in clothes hanger manufacturers?

  47. frog says

    mayhempix: Abortion is still illegal in Argentina. as well s as Chile and many other Latin American countries.

    On the other hand, in Chile the government dispenses the morning-after pill for free to teenagers. In the US, you still need a prescription (and cash) if your under 18.

    Things are never so clear.

  48. mayhempix says


    Both Argentina and Chile are very shizo at this point in regards to sexual issues. The urban young and educated tend to be socially progressive and have rejected the church and its idiocies. On the other hand the church is ingrained into the federal legal systems making change in regards to embedded laws like abortion very difficult. In Chile they were able to make the political case that the morning after pill is more a form of birth control than abortion. It is politically easier to prevent something from becoming illegal than it is to legalize something that already is.

  49. El Guerrero del Interfaz says

    As lots have pointed out, this is about a Spanish issue. And the results (67000 plus votes) reveal that there should be something fishy going on.

    Because anybody that either live here or knows Spain and its people is perfectly aware that being a catholic “culturally” and following the dictates of the hierarchy are quite different things. Even the cardinal of Seville, Monseñor Amigo, has stayed out of the noise and fuzz made by the ultra-orthodox who are driving this campaign. And almost all devout catholics in Seville, even those who oppose abortion, are quite happy with that. The last thing they want is to see their Holy Week processions turn into political manifestations “horteras”.

    And, of course, as polls have shown again and again and again, the vast majority of Spanish citizens, catholics or not, agree with pro-choice policies, gay marriage, stem cells research (we got back some very valuable scientists due to the stupid, for the USA, Bush policy), contraceptive methods and all things condemned by the Catholic Church. The only ones that support the ultra-orthodoxy of the current Pope is a very tiny minority of nostalgics of Franco’s dictatorship. The only problem is that this tiny minority is very powerful in the right wing party, the “Popular” Party where they are struggling with the more numerous but less powerful moderates and liberals (not the USAmerican meaning).

    So the poll does not reflect the opinion of the Spanish population and, as lefties are usually more connected than righties, it’s clear that something is amiss. The long arm of “il commendatore” maybe? Whatever. They will never get the power or the country back anyway.

  50. says

    Also remember that TV channel Tele5 (responsible for the poll) is property of the Italian media group own by Silvio Berlusconi.

  51. Flea says

    Well, now that I think of it I deeply regret I voted NO. I think the government should take in consideration the (Roman Catholic) Church’s stance on abortion and do exactly the opposite.

  52. Spanish Dude says

    @Luis Daniel, #48
    I am quite surprised we have those ads in a city where the bishop is known for declaring that some minors actually wish to be abused.

  53. NoFear says

    @#52 Julie;

    1) If PZ were aborted, he would be none the wiser.
    2) Don’t you wish that Hitler and Stalin were aborted? Or would that have messed up god’s grand plan?
    3) If god really really did not want people to abort, he/she could do something about it. He/she hasn’t. Let god fight his/her own battles, if he/she is all you say he/she is …. or rather simply “if he/she is” ……he/she can handle him/herself. He/she does not need you to misrepresent him/her (and misrepresent you must because you can not truly know god’s will, right?) or act on his/her behalf.
    4) Anytime someone argues against abortion using the tired, old argument “if you abort, you might abort another PZ Meyers”, that argument can be nullified by the counter “you might abort another Hitler”.

    Also, though it is probably not true in PZ’s case, I’ll bet that there are a lot of people on this earth who wish they had been aborted. I have even met a few myself. And during my teens, there were times when even I wished that I had never been born. That feeling was usually cured by a good roll in the hay, or failing that, a roll in the hand.

  54. bezoar says

    who gives two shits what the vatican thinks. That duplicitous, hypocritical cult should have no say in anything anyone does.

  55. says

    I voted from Chile (right next to Argentina, on the other side of Cordillera de Los Andes), ant my vote seems to have been accepted. That poll is not even close to be pharyngulized, by the way.

  56. El Guerrero del Interfaz says

    @ Luis Daniel, that’s what I was referring to with “il commendatore” ;-)

  57. El Guerrero del Interfaz says

    Last update: the campaign of the most integrist of the Spanish Catholic hierarchy to transform the Holy Week in a anti-abortist demonstration has failed pathetically. Only the “hermandades” of 3 cities have followed the dictates of the hierarchy and none of these were among the most important ones like Seville or Málaga. In Seville, the most important of all, not even the archbishop has joined the campaign.

    The inability of the hierarchy to mobilize even their supposed constituency, the most religious and fervorous, shows who the Catholic church represent and speaks for in Spain: *nobody* besides a tiny minority of nostalgics of Franco’s National Catholic dictatorship. They are irrelevant, they know it but try to act as if they were not just in case they could fool someone. Pathetic.

  58. Lorenzo Braschi says

    I’m from Spain. Here the Catholic church is researching heavily on a time-machine to bring all of us back to the 12th century. For the moment, I think they have succeeded and brought back some bishops from the Middle Ages to run the Church in Spain.