Who needs cupboards? I just throw all my shit on the floor.
TheBiodegradableMansays
I think it is intended for people who do not understand atheism.
It is a good thing.
HCsays
Nice? This is simply very good!
AndySinsays
Did anyone else notice what the letters spelled out?
Funny little anagram there.
Newfiesays
Did you hear about the gay midget? He came out of the cupboard.
mhsays
And kind of long, for something really so obvious to anyone who can hear and understand.
Glen D
We are talking about xtians here….
CaptainKendricksays
Eh.
Yeah, I agree with Citizen Grim: Heavy-handed allegory pulled back from the maudlin by the irritating Philip Glass soundtrack.
I like Azdak’s response too, but I’ll one-up it: who needs a cupboard when you don’t litter your life and mind with bullshit to begin with?
James Fsays
Hmm…I thought the denouement would involve him giving up the cupboard entirely.
Newfiesays
I thought the denouement would involve him giving up the cupboard entirely.
You can never really give up a cupboard once you are exposed to one. But, you can learn more about cupboards, and realize their place in the world… and add more, or different drawers.
Epinephrinesays
Did anyone else notice what the letters spelled out?
I’m curious – which letters? What acronym?
I did notice the book titles; I think the middle book was “Genome”, and a book on the top was called “Because You’re the Devil Donqui” or something.
I think the people saying he should have given up his cupboard entirely don’t really “get” the metaphor. The cupboards seem to symbolise ways of living, not religion. In the end he chose how to live his own life, that’s why he had a cupboard totally different from his book.
Anthonysays
The mixed around letters on the complete cupboard spell “All Bullshit”. It works out nice since it makes sense that by picking and choosing what parts they like they fail to see how messed up it all is when put together.
Anticontramesays
That’s what I took away from it, Andrew. Otherwise, you’d have to assume that there’s a religion requiring its followers have an “indigo drawer”.
littlejohnsays
I’m all for cheering for Our Side, but when Our Side produces tedious horseshit, we should just admit it. That was six minutes of my life I’ll never get back.
AndySinsays
Anthony wins! Haha.
Seriously though, good video. Only problem is that it is being occasionally misunderstood in the youtube comments as about respecting other people’s beliefs and promoting harmony in diversity of all cultures, races and religions. I’m all for the first two but number three I think we’re all agreed on is too….disrespectable??!
Or maybe I misunderstood it…
Jadehawksays
i kinda liked it. and i’d like to point out that i the last cupboard i owned consisted of 2 large drawers stacked on top of each other on the floor. no walls or anything; just the drawers; the rest seemed superfluous :-p
way to rip off the opening to Moral Orel there, guys.
(or did the Moral Orel guys rip that off from somewhere else themselves?)
varlosays
Interesting, but does anyone genuinely believe that even one fundie in the world will understand, comprehend (redundant?) and be freed by that understanding This cynic does not.
varlosays
Interesting, but does anyone genuinely believe that even one fundie in the world will understand, comprehend (redundant?) and be freed by that understanding This cynic does not.
Yes, I thought it was more “way of life” than about “with or without” religion. The “you’ll burn forever” part is the only overtly religious part…well, and the reading of the book in groups. I want to know who that was with the sparking periodic table-like cupboard.
Craig
PGPWNITsays
I stopped when the two boys were no longer friends because of faith. That so rarely happens. And if it does it’s because the parents disallow it…not because the children have a religious fight.
Silisays
I don’t like poetry, but this appealed to me. I guess I’m getting old enough to like Glass, too.
JoeBsays
At least the original cabinetry saved him from playing footsie with Uncle George :)
Epinephrinesays
See The difference between conservatives and liberals TED talk by Jonathan Haidt for an interesting and (I think) illuminating perspective.
Sorry, while I get that there are some advantages to a conservative view, the Zen koan, lauding of eastern philosophy and implication that liberal = lack of order seemed pretty silly. Probably the TED talk I have enjoyed the least.
He was pointing out that liberals rate three characteristics (that he decided were important parts of a moral psychology) lower, and implying that having these higher are a good thing, while theorizing that they are what allowed societies to advance.
Yes, obedience to authority and ingroup mentality can certainly allow a group to function together – but in the experiment he mentioned (in which punishment was introduced) the cooperation was good even without an authority or ingroup/outgroup being necessary. That experiment showed that the fairness/reciprocity is sufficient, providing that society can punish those who don’t follow fairness/reciprocity.
CaptainKendricksays
Well, yeah, exactly…maybe the problem was that Uncle George’s cabinet has shown up on a list child offenders??????
zer0says
So people getting upset about religion rarely happens PGPWNIT?
Sigmundsays
It’s all about the Ikea catalog, right?
CaptainKendricksays
Epinephrine,
It wasn’t even that for me…I actually was into his lecture until about minute 8, when he references with praise the Dalai Lama.
Poof. All his credibility was shot with his flip trendy nod to the Dalai Lama, who has been shown to be just another scam artist conning the world with his peace-love-and-understanding schtick so he get support to return to his golden position of authoritarian rule.
PGPWNITsays
Yes, that’s exactly what I said. You really cut through it, didn’t you.
I was talking about two kids, one especially naive in his faith, breaking up their friendship over religion. Add to it that the one who got mad was Indian. Indians never get mad….about anything.
recovering catholicsays
OK, you guys, this is a repost, but I think it’s appropriate–this video is by the same person who put together the elegant explanation of the differences between science and pseudoscience at
If I were still teaching, my students would all be required to watch this. And it’s beautiful–not tedious, heavy-handed or clunky, as I agree this one is.
I can go back my whole life since I stopped believing in god at age 9, and try to recall. Not all shunned me or stopped being friends, but growing up in “God’s Country, PA” sure didn’t make it easy.
The first I can remember was Dungeon and Dragons camp (yes, I was that kind of loser), and my roommate the first day asked me if I was Catholic….and well…let me just say it was a tense 7 days while we were in the room together. Oh joy. A loser goes to loser camp, and still has to put up with the same old crap…it sucked to be me.
Wowsa, that was waaay too long but well done. I have to agree with the general consensus though if anybody learned anything from Lord of the Flies it’s that allegories get boring/obvious really quick. Actually this would have been a lot better if the captioned text were all gone, and maybe had more to the soundtrack than just one continuous track. Nothing says pretention like Glass…
This is a beautiful video especially the use of narrative from a kid’s point of view. But as we expected, its gotten a couple of negative reviews on youtube…. something about disrespecting Christianity.
OK, you guys, this is a repost, but I think it’s appropriate–this video is by the same person who put together the elegant explanation of the differences between science and pseudoscience at
If I were still teaching, my students would all be required to watch this. And it’s beautiful–not tedious, heavy-handed or clunky, as I agree this one is.
That’s a really good video.
littlejohnsays
I was particularly confused by the (gay?) uncle. The boy checked the instruction manual (bible?) and concluded there was nothing wrong with that, as Seinfeld used to say.
Well, the bible goes on and on about homosexuality, and not in an approving manner. Another reason to reject that particular book.
Have I completely missed the point of this analogy?
BTW, I still say it’s tedious horseshit.
oldtreesays
darn good. a child that thinks is a dangerous thing when confronted with nonsense.
Nathansays
Pretty simplistic representation of a very complex subject. I guess my feeling about it is that it’s fine for everyone to have their own cupboard of their choice, but you have to understand that some cupboards work better than others. Also it’s ok for someone to have a cupboard different than mine, as long as they don’t want to take part of mine to build theirs.
kamakasays
Hey, what’s with the Glass bashing?!
OK, the score to this was tedious.
Try the soundtrack to Naqoyqatsi…lovely.
Gregory Kusnicksays
The score isn’t Glass anyway; it’s clearly credited to someone called QualiaSoup, whose photo appears in the opening credits, and he doesn’t look much like Glass.
Markussays
As a Swede, I feel angry and upset anyone dare question the almighty wisdom of the IKEA catalog.
Also, I really hate the way the blue drawers have sex. It is SO not okay… lol. :) I think it’s obvious that the cupboards are just a way of living. He spelled out a literal interpretation of the bible when he made his awful cupboard that was exact yet couldn’t stand on it’s own in our time, and that’s how he saw through the fog of religion.
Is it bad that I felt good when he kicked that cupboard, because that was my favorite part, I think.
DLCsays
Yeah, I got the anagram.
It was a bit long, but it presents it’s points well enough.
The piano score was … monotonous.
Interesting vid. Kinda long but I thought it was an effective allegory. At least a thought-provoking one. Interesting to see what meanings people read into such things.
I’m new here, obviously, but please don’t dismiss me as one of your recent wackaloons. I found this place when I was googling recommendations for my books (I’m a science fiction & fantasy novelist; a poster here recommended my works in this old thread from 2006. I go by my middle name of Teramis, but you’ll find my work referenced in that thread under my publishing name of Deborah Christian. You can see more at my website.)
I’d never heard of this place before, but I’m fascinated by the vibrant community you have here, and the eclectic subject matter. I have similar (and similarly eclectic) interests, and plan to stop by here regularly in the future. I’m in the throes of finishing a book right now but my left-brain tendencies keep nudging me to connect with some sharp intellectual conversation. This seems like a likely place for such.
Glad I found you.
kamakasays
GK @47
“The score isn’t Glass anyway; it’s clearly credited to someone called QualiaSoup, whose photo appears in the opening credits, and he doesn’t look much like Glass.”
Tedium explained.
'Tis Himselfsays
Indians never get mad…about anything
You must know some different Indians than I do.
From 1947 to 1951, some 14.5 million people crossed the borders between Muslim Pakistan (including what is now Bangladesh) and India to what they hoped was the relative safety of religious majority. There was considerable fighting between Muslims and Hindus (and various other sects) during this period. Estimates of the number of deaths range around roughly 500,000, with low estimates at 200,000 and high estimates at 1,000,000
I think this is awesome- there’s something very poignant about it. It does seem to be aimed at Christians, and I’d love to show some of the fundies this as an introduction to atheism.
(BTW, I interpreted the cupboards as being outlooks or ways of life rather than religions- only the dull cupboards were religions, differing only in the composition of their components, all the wacky ones were representing “freethinkers” in general).
Marciesays
I liked it.
I thought the ‘Skewed views of science’ video was really well done.
Browniansays
Half of my home library is organised by Dewey, the other half isn’t organised at all.
I liked it. It was strong and on point with a good message without being hostile. It addressed many (but not all, not by a long shot) forms of religious intolerance. I have to agree with the others in that the drawers are ways to live and not religious per se. (I thought the indigo drawer was blue at first so I thought his uncle was Jewish. And for all we know that’s all he is.)
As for the length, there was a lot to cover and maybe it could have been trimmed a little, but it might have felt rushed otherwise. In a way, I am pleased that the parents only became more accepting and didn’t remake their own covers. That would have been too much. I’d also like to point out the boy’s cupboard was radically different than everyone else’s (until the end). That should signify something.
I liked the cupboard analogy because it represents how people organize their thoughts and their lives. Which leaves me to ask the question, what does your cupboard look like?
PGPWNIT, having your drawers in different spots doesn’t mean you can’t be a jerk too. The childhood friend was being overly sensitive to his naive friend. But maybe he was asked about his cupboard a few too many times.
PGGWNITsays
“The first I can remember was Dungeon and Dragons camp (yes, I was that kind of loser), and my roommate the first day asked me if I was Catholic….and well…let me just say it was a tense 7 days while we were in the room together. Oh joy. A loser goes to loser camp, and still has to put up with the same old crap…it sucked to be me.”
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I feel it’s rare. Hasn’t happened to me…especially with established friends.
It’s important, to me at least, to not feel like a victim.
I also feel it’s important to not be a crusader.
craigsays
I rather liked the music, what made it tedious was that it was done in MIDI… if a real person performed it and recorded it, it would have brought some life into it and made it not so tedious.
PGPWNITsays
“I rather liked the music”
I’m with you there.
PGPWNITsays
Alverant “But maybe he was asked about his cupboard a few too many times.”
If you’re going to put your drawers in the wrong cubbies, you’d better be prepared to answer for it.
:)
PGPWNITsays
And another thing. It seems we need to pass the hat to get PZ a site that is somewhat performant.
John Moralessays
Alverant,
Which leaves me to ask the question, what does your cupboard look like?
I don’t think I have one. My decisions are based on what seems best to me at the time, not on any formalism.
funda62says
I liked it. My favorite lines were, “I didn’t understand why Sanjay was so angry. I only wanted to help him.” Oh I have heard this so very many times.
John Scanlon FCDsays
Capt. Kendrick’s reminiscence reminded me of the time I was on a Sydney Uni Biological Society (BiolSoc) weekend trip in the easrly 80s, and found out that of the dozen or so students every single one was a current or (in my case) lapsed Catholic. What’s up with that? I was wondering, but a couple of them became hostile that I even brought it up. Nobody else seemed to find it anomalous or even interesting. My parents had been fans of Teilhard de Chardin and Charles Birch in the 1950s and I grew up in a Jesuit parish with the view that studying biology was all very AMDG, but Catholics have only got stranger since then.
flagglesays
Indians never get mad….about anything.
to counter one ignorant, stereotypical statement with another: “what? you never gotten yelled at by the 7-11 dude?!”
i’m with Citizen Grim – a very heavy-handed allegory indeed.
cupboards? nyeh.
Kimpatsusays
Towards the end, when we were shown all the different cupboards, the second one had “Curiosity is powerful” written on it in Japanese. Does that matter at all?
Sastrasays
I thought the video was interesting, but I’m not sure I agree with its theme.
As I saw it, the moral of the parable came down to the view that people shouldn’t judge or criticize other people’s religions, because they’re all expressions of personal choice. There is no “right” or “wrong” in religion, or world view. If it fits someone’s life, then it’s fine. Accept diversity.
Unfortunately, while that works on the level of social situations, this popular message is part of the system which protects religion from serious critique, and places it on a special pedestal. The “close-minded” Christian parents could easily have been replaced by atheists saying there is no God, or even scientists saying that homeopathy doesn’t work. That’s placing truth in a “box,” you know. We should say instead “well, we don’t believe in that, but how wonderful that you do. We respect your beliefs.” Anything else is “judgmental.” There’s no one way that’s right. There are many different truths, and ways of knowing. cupboards.
Ick.
So my reaction to the video was mostly negative, from the thematic standpoint. I’m a bit surprised that PZ thought it was “nice.”
Or, maybe that’s his point. It’s about being “nice.”
And we’re not “nice.” ;)
Keithsays
I hate to be the Negative Nancy here, but even if the cupboards are supposed to be symbolic of “ways of living,” the message seems sort of relativistic at the end. Some ways of living are in some ways better than others, yes? It’s a pity that couldn’t have been pointed out.
PGPWNITsays
#73
I’m ok, you’re ok.
Can’t we all just get along?
We’re all pink inside.
Keithsays
What if your “way of living” defined “ok” as murdering the homeless in your spare time? I can’t accept that cupboard.
PGPWNITsays
“What if your “way of living” defined “ok” as murdering the homeless in your spare time? I can’t accept that cupboard.”
I think what we’re discovering is that as long as you’re critiquing religion, you’re ok….or nice….at least in this crowd. To be fair, though, that was the point of the video….to critique religion.
That being said. The homeless are a drain on society and on it’s hard working God-fearing people.
#6: I had to pause the film when I saw the message in the cupboard — I laughed.
I liked the video, though I do have some reservations concerning the message at the end (tolerance of other religions). The music was particularly nice as well — I love minimalist music, and it’s somewhat disturbing to see quite a bit of Glass-bashing here (Glass breaking?).
Keithsays
Even if the cupboards are supposed to represent religions, what is the message? That everyone can have their own unique religious or non-religious interpretations and that’s quite groovy? I’d beg to differ. Certain ethical behaviors and moralities come packaged in with religions of all stripes almost by default. The word “religion” encompasses a lot. And while it’s true that ethics and morality are not exclusive to religious belief, ignoring the fact that religions come with ethical and moral prescriptions is an error. This video seems to advocate tolerance of a multitude of “cupboards.” It smacks of relativism, whether you’re trying to be sarcastic or not.
James Stephensonsays
The usual pathetic and childish simplification of religion.
Sastrasays
PGPWNIT #76 wrote:
<
I think what we’re discovering is that as long as you’re critiquing religion, you’re ok….or nice….at least in this crowd. To be fair, though, that was the point of the video….to critique religion.
No, I don’t think the point of the video was to critique religion — I think it was to critique judgmental religion — religions which say that they’re right and everybody else is wrong. My guess is that the people who made the video would include atheism in that category, excepting only those atheists who are just fine with other people’s religious views, and ask only to be left alone.
Anyone who had a religion (or world view) which advocated murdering the homeless would therefore be putting themselves above others, and be part of the problem. Everyone should be accepted. Religions which say this are fine.
As I said, I think there’s some wisdom there, but on the whole, I disagree with this theme. In order to accept that “all religious views are fine” as long as the people are nice, I’d have to look at them only on the level of social choice, matters of taste and personal preferences which are no more open to dispute than aesthetics. Ironically, I think this attitude is a bit disrespectful of religion.
Keithsays
#80
Things must be judged to be of greater or lesser value or to be of more or less harm. It is simply impossible or incorrect to reserve all (or even a lot) of judgment, especially in regards to ethics/morality (subjects that often involve life and death decisions) and something as fanciful as “religion.”
Hell, you’re making a judgment in asking no one to be judged.
Sastrasays
Keith #81 wrote:
Hell, you’re making a judgment in asking no one to be judged.
Quite right; the view can’t really be held consistently. Usually they have to modify it as “as long as you don’t bother or hurt anyone” — and then they’re not saying much.
Garysays
I understood the video to mean that instead of being all tied up by dogma, people must try to form their own way of thinking. I would think skeptics like ourselves would agree to this message. While that viewpoint allows some people to choose religions and ways of thinking that we might have a major problem with, that same freedom has allowed all of you to form the opinions that you now hold dear. This freedom even allows us to recognize that all viewpoints are not equal – just as in the video, the boy recognized that his parents’ viewpoint was stifling, prejudiced, and dogmatic.
I liked the music. Then again, I wasn’t raised in the 90s. It was grammatical, it just wasn’t adventurous.
The message presented by the video was clear, if you were able to discern it (some people simply can’t get the point), and did not try forcing your interpretation upon it. What was the message? Different groups have different ways of organizing things, and your way of organizing things may not include all the ways your predecessors came up with. Once you stop trying to make it fit your way of organizing things it’s an effective analogy.
The short was about framing. Evidently PZ liked the way the creators framed framing. What was the short framing? How different people frame their lives and the way lives should be framed. How we frame is determined by our culture, our upbringing, and our personal experience. Any method of framing will include techniques that sounded good at the time, but which later proven unworkable, even destructive. All framing becomes more complex as time passes and must be edited down in order to remain useful. Even academic framing will show this, for even academics need something they can work with.
Let us now see if you can re-frame an argument. Professor Sagan once said that, “Extraordinary claims required extraordinary proofs.” True so far as it goes. However, claims cannot be divided into ordinary and extraordinary. Rather claims can be anything from utterly mundane to positively fantastic. What makes a claim extraordinary (telepathic invisible pink bunnies from the outer other) and how extraordinary is the claim (bipedal apes in North America before the start of the Ice Ages)? Is the claim extraordinary at all (Norsemen in Nova Scotia in the year 1000)?
Re-frame claims said to be extraordinary in this fashion and see what happens.
Charlie Elef3usays
What stood out to me was the “completed” cupboard. Not sure if all viewers will get this (especially believers because of their closed-mindedness), but read in its entirety without ignoring the ugliness, the bible is gruesome, just as the fully-read manual produced a gruesome cupboard.
I liked that.
Stridersays
I really liked that! What? Did watching steal precious time from your project to solve mankind’s problems? Yeesh, guys, lighten up!
Andyosays
Funny, this past Sunday I had a very similar conversation with this couple of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I told them that in a sense, they fundamentalists are more honest than, say, catholics, who just excuse their way-out-there beliefs with “ineffable” bullshit metaphors. We spoke for an hour an a half at my door, it was pretty entertaining, at least for me.
Hopefully they got something from what we discussed. I just told them basically, you have made all your conclusions about life and the universe based on that one assumption (that the bible is true). Haven’t you ever considered you could be wrong (and mentioned other beliefs, and that science contradicts the bible)? and they didn’t know how to answer that. They’d never, it seems, even considered that possibility.
About this video, since the comparison is silly and in good fun anyway, it could have used some voices or some jokes here and there. But who am I to mess with the artistic integrity of the people who do silent animations with mellow piano soundtracks?
arachnophiliasays
“all bullshit” anagram aside, i think the analogy is flawed. they never once presented a person without a cabinet.
@Charlie Elef3u: (#85)
What stood out to me was the “completed” cupboard. Not sure if all viewers will get this (especially believers because of their closed-mindedness), but read in its entirety without ignoring the ugliness, the bible is gruesome, just as the fully-read manual produced a gruesome cupboard.
not gruesome. just a clusterfuck, and without much in the way of legs to stand on. it has some clearly nonsensical bits. some clearly functional bits. some bits with pretty colors. and some ugly parts. you know, if you read the whole manual. the problem is, of course, that the bible’s not really a manual. and treating as such is just… well, it leads to weird cabinet design.
@Andyo: (#87)
Funny, this past Sunday I had a very similar conversation with this couple of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
jehovah’s witnesses don’t like me. i think it has something to do with me telling them that they’re pronouncing the name of god incorrectly. seems to really push their buttons. especially because i can explain the linguistics and the history behind the error, and they generally have no reply to that. (because, um, there are still wrong ways to read that manual… )
arekksusays
What? Did watching steal precious time from your project to solve mankind’s problems?
no, it just sucked.
kjg28says
The drawer set he makes with the manual is an anagram, I think: “ALL BULL SHIT”…cool
Larrysays
My take on this is that throwing your cupboard away is like commiting suicide; and not having a cupboard is the same as not being alive. Everyone living has a view of “something”,
whatever it may be.
Samantha Vimessays
I think the uncle was Mormon.
White drawer + black drawer = Old & New Testaments
George has 3rd drawer, book of Mormon.
Or George is Muslim, with the drawers each being a prophet.
And he wasn’t going to molest the kid, he wanted to play sports.
****
And it really pissed me off when I was a kid and the evangelical kids told me I was an atheist (I was deist) and was going to burn in hell. I did drop a few friendships, because who wants to be friends with someone who thinks you’re so evil somebody had to face capital punishment for your crimes, and not only that, but it was someone else executed in your place, and you were supposed to call it justice and mercy and be grateful, or be tortured forever.
Richard Eissays
I liked it. I would have prefered a narrator to break up the continuous music a little.
I see it got you all talking anyway, so it can’t have been too bad.
Andyosays
Posted by: arachnophilia | January 14, 2009 12:43 AM
@Andyo: (#87)
jehovah’s witnesses don’t like me. i think it has something to do with me telling them that they’re pronouncing the name of god incorrectly. seems to really push their buttons. especially because i can explain the linguistics and the history behind the error, and they generally have no reply to that. (because, um, there are still wrong ways to read that manual… )
We even discussed history too, though one could say I don’t know diddly-freaking-squat about the history of the bible. They seem to know even less. I kept asking them questions about who wrote it, and they kept quoting me from the bible. It was like having a discussion with Stephen Colbert. When they said, “we know the bible is true, because the bible says it’s true”, they weren’t kidding though.
We had some fun talking about Noah and the “do you know how many species of insects there are?” question, Lot’s wife and god’s pettiness, Abraham, Methuselah and his multi-hundred-year-old life… It was kind of fascinating to me see how they honestly deny reality. Nice change from those weasely catholics I’ve dealt with before.
If you didn’t enjoy it, and particularly if you actually hated it, you may be coming across to people as a grumpy, souless and perfectly dull obsessive, atheism (or hatred of religion) being the focus of your obsession. You are likely completely unaware of this, and even less likely to actually be that person. This is a heads up.
Although this video was long, I really connected with it. I’m not sure if there is actually a less pretentious analogy. It seems to me that the author had a very similar experience to me, except I didn’t really LOSE friends because I was nice. However, I did needlessly avoid some people and condemn some of my friends to hell (nicely).
If I follow the analogy correctly, not everyone goes through the experience of making the complete cupboard. I did, and that is exactly why I left the faith. At the end, I saw my complicated cupboard, and realized that the entire world had a different cupboard than me, and had no way of testing to make sure my cupboard was right, except by years of scholarly bible searching (if they made it to the bible). Even the Internet had began to fail in bringing me like-minded companions. All my former friends were telling me that my cupboard was no only wrong but would condemn me to hell. They wouldn’t listen to *why* my cupboard was like that (I was a budding rationalist). They were praying to the same God, and yet continually got “replies” from that God that I was wrong and they were right. I realized that our replies must be coming from ourselves.
i think the analogy is flawed. they never once presented a person without a cabinet.
I think the point is that nobody is without a “cabinet.” We all have a worldview. It’s either one we come up with ourselves, or one we are raised with. There are certain things that you value and certain perspectives you have, even if it’s a skeptical perspective.
This doesn’t mean that your “cabinet” is any kind of belief at all.
MemeGenesays
I liked this video. Sure, it won’t convince the zealots, but nothing will because the problem is in their heads. It is a cute production of a good analogy and it was fun to watch.
And for the record, I stopped eating with my group of friends freshman year in HS precisely because of all their religio-bigotry and derisive comments about gays and girls who would terminate a pregnancy.
Son of a preacher mansays
I love the way the buds on the wall paper bloomed into flowers when she had her awakening. (Anyone else notice?) I hope that doesn’t mean I have an indigo drawer.
teammartysays
I thought it sounded more like Steve Reich than Philip Glass.
ggabsays
I thought this was really well done.
Touching and sweet.
catgirlsays
@ #85, I completely agree. The part that stood out to me was when he built the cabinet exactly as the manual described, and it didn’t work. I’m not atheist, but kind of agnostic. I guess my cabinet is just a pile of pieces that I haven’t decided how to put together yet.
@ #37, I envy you and wish that I could have gone to Dungeons and Dragons camp.
I really enjoyed that. It’s well made and doesn’t hit you over the head with one viewpoint, but stresses the fact that everybody has a different viewpoint, which they think is right.
arachnophiliasays
@Andyo: (#94)
We even discussed history too, though one could say I don’t know diddly-freaking-squat about the history of the bible. They seem to know even less. I kept asking them questions about who wrote it, and they kept quoting me from the bible. It was like having a discussion with Stephen Colbert. When they said, “we know the bible is true, because the bible says it’s true”, they weren’t kidding though.
they sure aren’t! JWs are some of the most programmed fundies i’ve run into. but they’re nice people generally? it’s sorta funny how little they know about the bible. but when you approach it from a certain attitude, like “everything in its true” and then just kinda trust your church about what it actually says, it really gets in the way of learning anything about the book at all.
a lot of the history of the bible is actually known from study of the bible alone. but you have to be willing to look at things like conflicts between sources, anachronisms, writing style/voice, and just plain absurdities. and they’re not willing to do that.
It was kind of fascinating to me see how they honestly deny reality. Nice change from those weasely catholics I’ve dealt with before.
yeah, those people who compromise their faith by accepting reality are real hard to deal with. especially if the admit they’re probably crazy. like, um. me, i guess.
@Icelander: (#99)
I think the point is that nobody is without a “cabinet.” We all have a worldview. … This doesn’t mean that your “cabinet” is any kind of belief at all.
oh, ok. cabinet = way you live your life. (wouldn’t worldview, in some way, be a sort of belief? even though some are more justified than others…)
Hadeemsays
Liked this one. The facial expression were done fairly well and this really can be applied to other areas. I mean people are ruled by fear and ego so this works for whatever prob in life. Also it makes me want to make a personal cupboard for myself, with Dolomite knobs.
david omansays
as a Bible-believing christian i liked this clip alot, the boy did well to read the book himself instead of just believing what he had been taught (by people unwilling to face up to the inconvenient instructions), but he abandoned things to easily when his first attempt to understand things resulted in an odd looking cupboard, he should have tried harder to understand something he might be missing, and try to imagine how the cupboard might actuality be good as is. I find it odd that no free-thinker freely chooses to use an instruction-manual cupboard.
Starkersays
@david oman: I think this was not what the clip was about. It was about how he learned to love his parents despite of them having manual-specific cupboards and his parents began to accept him despite of him having constructed his own cupboard.
As for my thoughts on the video while being an atheist, looking at the comments on Youtube and other places, it’s ironic how people try to nail someone to a tree just for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change.
Sorry to miss you in SciOnline 09 – my son was so eager to meet you there as well. Greg took a photo of him promising to add a beard and make him PZ ;-)
Yes, if by parable, you mean heavy-handed allegory.
And kind of long, for something really so obvious to anyone who can hear and understand.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Who needs cupboards? I just throw all my shit on the floor.
I think it is intended for people who do not understand atheism.
It is a good thing.
Nice? This is simply very good!
Did anyone else notice what the letters spelled out?
Funny little anagram there.
Did you hear about the gay midget? He came out of the cupboard.
We are talking about xtians here….
Eh.
Yeah, I agree with Citizen Grim: Heavy-handed allegory pulled back from the maudlin by the irritating Philip Glass soundtrack.
I like Azdak’s response too, but I’ll one-up it: who needs a cupboard when you don’t litter your life and mind with bullshit to begin with?
Hmm…I thought the denouement would involve him giving up the cupboard entirely.
You can never really give up a cupboard once you are exposed to one. But, you can learn more about cupboards, and realize their place in the world… and add more, or different drawers.
I’m curious – which letters? What acronym?
I did notice the book titles; I think the middle book was “Genome”, and a book on the top was called “Because You’re the Devil Donqui” or something.
http://www.sacbee.com/topstories/story/1537027-p2.html
state funded program promotes buddhist perspective.
I got the impression that the cupboards represented worldviews, and his religion only dictated a specific layout of the drawers.
See The difference between conservatives and liberals TED talk by Jonathan Haidt for an interesting and (I think) illuminating perspective.
Argh – I meant anagram, not acronym…
I think the people saying he should have given up his cupboard entirely don’t really “get” the metaphor. The cupboards seem to symbolise ways of living, not religion. In the end he chose how to live his own life, that’s why he had a cupboard totally different from his book.
The mixed around letters on the complete cupboard spell “All Bullshit”. It works out nice since it makes sense that by picking and choosing what parts they like they fail to see how messed up it all is when put together.
That’s what I took away from it, Andrew. Otherwise, you’d have to assume that there’s a religion requiring its followers have an “indigo drawer”.
I’m all for cheering for Our Side, but when Our Side produces tedious horseshit, we should just admit it. That was six minutes of my life I’ll never get back.
Anthony wins! Haha.
Seriously though, good video. Only problem is that it is being occasionally misunderstood in the youtube comments as about respecting other people’s beliefs and promoting harmony in diversity of all cultures, races and religions. I’m all for the first two but number three I think we’re all agreed on is too….disrespectable??!
Or maybe I misunderstood it…
i kinda liked it. and i’d like to point out that i the last cupboard i owned consisted of 2 large drawers stacked on top of each other on the floor. no walls or anything; just the drawers; the rest seemed superfluous :-p
way to rip off the opening to Moral Orel there, guys.
(or did the Moral Orel guys rip that off from somewhere else themselves?)
Interesting, but does anyone genuinely believe that even one fundie in the world will understand, comprehend (redundant?) and be freed by that understanding This cynic does not.
Interesting, but does anyone genuinely believe that even one fundie in the world will understand, comprehend (redundant?) and be freed by that understanding This cynic does not.
Yes, I thought it was more “way of life” than about “with or without” religion. The “you’ll burn forever” part is the only overtly religious part…well, and the reading of the book in groups. I want to know who that was with the sparking periodic table-like cupboard.
Craig
I stopped when the two boys were no longer friends because of faith. That so rarely happens. And if it does it’s because the parents disallow it…not because the children have a religious fight.
I don’t like poetry, but this appealed to me. I guess I’m getting old enough to like Glass, too.
At least the original cabinetry saved him from playing footsie with Uncle George :)
Sorry, while I get that there are some advantages to a conservative view, the Zen koan, lauding of eastern philosophy and implication that liberal = lack of order seemed pretty silly. Probably the TED talk I have enjoyed the least.
He was pointing out that liberals rate three characteristics (that he decided were important parts of a moral psychology) lower, and implying that having these higher are a good thing, while theorizing that they are what allowed societies to advance.
Yes, obedience to authority and ingroup mentality can certainly allow a group to function together – but in the experiment he mentioned (in which punishment was introduced) the cooperation was good even without an authority or ingroup/outgroup being necessary. That experiment showed that the fairness/reciprocity is sufficient, providing that society can punish those who don’t follow fairness/reciprocity.
Well, yeah, exactly…maybe the problem was that Uncle George’s cabinet has shown up on a list child offenders??????
So people getting upset about religion rarely happens PGPWNIT?
It’s all about the Ikea catalog, right?
Epinephrine,
It wasn’t even that for me…I actually was into his lecture until about minute 8, when he references with praise the Dalai Lama.
Poof. All his credibility was shot with his flip trendy nod to the Dalai Lama, who has been shown to be just another scam artist conning the world with his peace-love-and-understanding schtick so he get support to return to his golden position of authoritarian rule.
Yes, that’s exactly what I said. You really cut through it, didn’t you.
I was talking about two kids, one especially naive in his faith, breaking up their friendship over religion. Add to it that the one who got mad was Indian. Indians never get mad….about anything.
OK, you guys, this is a repost, but I think it’s appropriate–this video is by the same person who put together the elegant explanation of the differences between science and pseudoscience at
If I were still teaching, my students would all be required to watch this. And it’s beautiful–not tedious, heavy-handed or clunky, as I agree this one is.
PGPWNIT,
Don’t think it happens?
I can go back my whole life since I stopped believing in god at age 9, and try to recall. Not all shunned me or stopped being friends, but growing up in “God’s Country, PA” sure didn’t make it easy.
The first I can remember was Dungeon and Dragons camp (yes, I was that kind of loser), and my roommate the first day asked me if I was Catholic….and well…let me just say it was a tense 7 days while we were in the room together. Oh joy. A loser goes to loser camp, and still has to put up with the same old crap…it sucked to be me.
Wowsa, that was waaay too long but well done. I have to agree with the general consensus though if anybody learned anything from Lord of the Flies it’s that allegories get boring/obvious really quick. Actually this would have been a lot better if the captioned text were all gone, and maybe had more to the soundtrack than just one continuous track. Nothing says pretention like Glass…
I especially liked the “The cupboard wouldn’t hold up on its own, I had to prop it up with books”
Do you think that was intentional?
It was a nice parable
This is a beautiful video especially the use of narrative from a kid’s point of view. But as we expected, its gotten a couple of negative reviews on youtube…. something about disrespecting Christianity.
That’s a really good video.
I was particularly confused by the (gay?) uncle. The boy checked the instruction manual (bible?) and concluded there was nothing wrong with that, as Seinfeld used to say.
Well, the bible goes on and on about homosexuality, and not in an approving manner. Another reason to reject that particular book.
Have I completely missed the point of this analogy?
BTW, I still say it’s tedious horseshit.
darn good. a child that thinks is a dangerous thing when confronted with nonsense.
Pretty simplistic representation of a very complex subject. I guess my feeling about it is that it’s fine for everyone to have their own cupboard of their choice, but you have to understand that some cupboards work better than others. Also it’s ok for someone to have a cupboard different than mine, as long as they don’t want to take part of mine to build theirs.
Hey, what’s with the Glass bashing?!
OK, the score to this was tedious.
Try the soundtrack to Naqoyqatsi…lovely.
The score isn’t Glass anyway; it’s clearly credited to someone called QualiaSoup, whose photo appears in the opening credits, and he doesn’t look much like Glass.
As a Swede, I feel angry and upset anyone dare question the almighty wisdom of the IKEA catalog.
That was just fun.
Also, I really hate the way the blue drawers have sex. It is SO not okay… lol. :) I think it’s obvious that the cupboards are just a way of living. He spelled out a literal interpretation of the bible when he made his awful cupboard that was exact yet couldn’t stand on it’s own in our time, and that’s how he saw through the fog of religion.
Is it bad that I felt good when he kicked that cupboard, because that was my favorite part, I think.
Yeah, I got the anagram.
It was a bit long, but it presents it’s points well enough.
The piano score was … monotonous.
Well, I liked it. It was oddly calming. I prefer a nice Daniel Dennett lecture, but it will do in a pinch.
to counter one ignorant, stereotypical statement with another: “what? you never gotten yelled at by the 7-11 dude?!”
Interesting vid. Kinda long but I thought it was an effective allegory. At least a thought-provoking one. Interesting to see what meanings people read into such things.
I’m new here, obviously, but please don’t dismiss me as one of your recent wackaloons. I found this place when I was googling recommendations for my books (I’m a science fiction & fantasy novelist; a poster here recommended my works in this old thread from 2006. I go by my middle name of Teramis, but you’ll find my work referenced in that thread under my publishing name of Deborah Christian. You can see more at my website.)
I’d never heard of this place before, but I’m fascinated by the vibrant community you have here, and the eclectic subject matter. I have similar (and similarly eclectic) interests, and plan to stop by here regularly in the future. I’m in the throes of finishing a book right now but my left-brain tendencies keep nudging me to connect with some sharp intellectual conversation. This seems like a likely place for such.
Glad I found you.
GK @47
“The score isn’t Glass anyway; it’s clearly credited to someone called QualiaSoup, whose photo appears in the opening credits, and he doesn’t look much like Glass.”
Tedium explained.
You must know some different Indians than I do.
From 1947 to 1951, some 14.5 million people crossed the borders between Muslim Pakistan (including what is now Bangladesh) and India to what they hoped was the relative safety of religious majority. There was considerable fighting between Muslims and Hindus (and various other sects) during this period. Estimates of the number of deaths range around roughly 500,000, with low estimates at 200,000 and high estimates at 1,000,000
OT but Good News!
I think this is awesome- there’s something very poignant about it. It does seem to be aimed at Christians, and I’d love to show some of the fundies this as an introduction to atheism.
(BTW, I interpreted the cupboards as being outlooks or ways of life rather than religions- only the dull cupboards were religions, differing only in the composition of their components, all the wacky ones were representing “freethinkers” in general).
I liked it.
I thought the ‘Skewed views of science’ video was really well done.
Half of my home library is organised by Dewey, the other half isn’t organised at all.
Does that mean I’m actually an agnostic?
I liked it. It was strong and on point with a good message without being hostile. It addressed many (but not all, not by a long shot) forms of religious intolerance. I have to agree with the others in that the drawers are ways to live and not religious per se. (I thought the indigo drawer was blue at first so I thought his uncle was Jewish. And for all we know that’s all he is.)
As for the length, there was a lot to cover and maybe it could have been trimmed a little, but it might have felt rushed otherwise. In a way, I am pleased that the parents only became more accepting and didn’t remake their own covers. That would have been too much. I’d also like to point out the boy’s cupboard was radically different than everyone else’s (until the end). That should signify something.
I liked the cupboard analogy because it represents how people organize their thoughts and their lives. Which leaves me to ask the question, what does your cupboard look like?
PGPWNIT, having your drawers in different spots doesn’t mean you can’t be a jerk too. The childhood friend was being overly sensitive to his naive friend. But maybe he was asked about his cupboard a few too many times.
“The first I can remember was Dungeon and Dragons camp (yes, I was that kind of loser), and my roommate the first day asked me if I was Catholic….and well…let me just say it was a tense 7 days while we were in the room together. Oh joy. A loser goes to loser camp, and still has to put up with the same old crap…it sucked to be me.”
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I feel it’s rare. Hasn’t happened to me…especially with established friends.
It’s important, to me at least, to not feel like a victim.
I also feel it’s important to not be a crusader.
I rather liked the music, what made it tedious was that it was done in MIDI… if a real person performed it and recorded it, it would have brought some life into it and made it not so tedious.
“I rather liked the music”
I’m with you there.
Alverant “But maybe he was asked about his cupboard a few too many times.”
If you’re going to put your drawers in the wrong cubbies, you’d better be prepared to answer for it.
:)
And another thing. It seems we need to pass the hat to get PZ a site that is somewhat performant.
Alverant,
I don’t think I have one. My decisions are based on what seems best to me at the time, not on any formalism.
I liked it. My favorite lines were, “I didn’t understand why Sanjay was so angry. I only wanted to help him.” Oh I have heard this so very many times.
Capt. Kendrick’s reminiscence reminded me of the time I was on a Sydney Uni Biological Society (BiolSoc) weekend trip in the easrly 80s, and found out that of the dozen or so students every single one was a current or (in my case) lapsed Catholic. What’s up with that? I was wondering, but a couple of them became hostile that I even brought it up. Nobody else seemed to find it anomalous or even interesting. My parents had been fans of Teilhard de Chardin and Charles Birch in the 1950s and I grew up in a Jesuit parish with the view that studying biology was all very AMDG, but Catholics have only got stranger since then.
I think a little Apu is called for here:
http://www.rosswalker.co.uk/tv_sounds/sounds_files_20081223_9801173/simpsons/apu_get_out.wav
i’m with Citizen Grim – a very heavy-handed allegory indeed.
cupboards? nyeh.
Towards the end, when we were shown all the different cupboards, the second one had “Curiosity is powerful” written on it in Japanese. Does that matter at all?
I thought the video was interesting, but I’m not sure I agree with its theme.
As I saw it, the moral of the parable came down to the view that people shouldn’t judge or criticize other people’s religions, because they’re all expressions of personal choice. There is no “right” or “wrong” in religion, or world view. If it fits someone’s life, then it’s fine. Accept diversity.
Unfortunately, while that works on the level of social situations, this popular message is part of the system which protects religion from serious critique, and places it on a special pedestal. The “close-minded” Christian parents could easily have been replaced by atheists saying there is no God, or even scientists saying that homeopathy doesn’t work. That’s placing truth in a “box,” you know. We should say instead “well, we don’t believe in that, but how wonderful that you do. We respect your beliefs.” Anything else is “judgmental.” There’s no one way that’s right. There are many different truths, and ways of knowing. cupboards.
Ick.
So my reaction to the video was mostly negative, from the thematic standpoint. I’m a bit surprised that PZ thought it was “nice.”
Or, maybe that’s his point. It’s about being “nice.”
And we’re not “nice.” ;)
I hate to be the Negative Nancy here, but even if the cupboards are supposed to be symbolic of “ways of living,” the message seems sort of relativistic at the end. Some ways of living are in some ways better than others, yes? It’s a pity that couldn’t have been pointed out.
#73
I’m ok, you’re ok.
Can’t we all just get along?
We’re all pink inside.
What if your “way of living” defined “ok” as murdering the homeless in your spare time? I can’t accept that cupboard.
“What if your “way of living” defined “ok” as murdering the homeless in your spare time? I can’t accept that cupboard.”
I think what we’re discovering is that as long as you’re critiquing religion, you’re ok….or nice….at least in this crowd. To be fair, though, that was the point of the video….to critique religion.
That being said. The homeless are a drain on society and on it’s hard working God-fearing people.
#6: I had to pause the film when I saw the message in the cupboard — I laughed.
I liked the video, though I do have some reservations concerning the message at the end (tolerance of other religions). The music was particularly nice as well — I love minimalist music, and it’s somewhat disturbing to see quite a bit of Glass-bashing here (Glass breaking?).
Even if the cupboards are supposed to represent religions, what is the message? That everyone can have their own unique religious or non-religious interpretations and that’s quite groovy? I’d beg to differ. Certain ethical behaviors and moralities come packaged in with religions of all stripes almost by default. The word “religion” encompasses a lot. And while it’s true that ethics and morality are not exclusive to religious belief, ignoring the fact that religions come with ethical and moral prescriptions is an error. This video seems to advocate tolerance of a multitude of “cupboards.” It smacks of relativism, whether you’re trying to be sarcastic or not.
The usual pathetic and childish simplification of religion.
PGPWNIT #76 wrote:
<
#80
Things must be judged to be of greater or lesser value or to be of more or less harm. It is simply impossible or incorrect to reserve all (or even a lot) of judgment, especially in regards to ethics/morality (subjects that often involve life and death decisions) and something as fanciful as “religion.”
Hell, you’re making a judgment in asking no one to be judged.
Keith #81 wrote:
Quite right; the view can’t really be held consistently. Usually they have to modify it as “as long as you don’t bother or hurt anyone” — and then they’re not saying much.
I understood the video to mean that instead of being all tied up by dogma, people must try to form their own way of thinking. I would think skeptics like ourselves would agree to this message. While that viewpoint allows some people to choose religions and ways of thinking that we might have a major problem with, that same freedom has allowed all of you to form the opinions that you now hold dear. This freedom even allows us to recognize that all viewpoints are not equal – just as in the video, the boy recognized that his parents’ viewpoint was stifling, prejudiced, and dogmatic.
I liked the music. Then again, I wasn’t raised in the 90s. It was grammatical, it just wasn’t adventurous.
The message presented by the video was clear, if you were able to discern it (some people simply can’t get the point), and did not try forcing your interpretation upon it. What was the message? Different groups have different ways of organizing things, and your way of organizing things may not include all the ways your predecessors came up with. Once you stop trying to make it fit your way of organizing things it’s an effective analogy.
The short was about framing. Evidently PZ liked the way the creators framed framing. What was the short framing? How different people frame their lives and the way lives should be framed. How we frame is determined by our culture, our upbringing, and our personal experience. Any method of framing will include techniques that sounded good at the time, but which later proven unworkable, even destructive. All framing becomes more complex as time passes and must be edited down in order to remain useful. Even academic framing will show this, for even academics need something they can work with.
Let us now see if you can re-frame an argument. Professor Sagan once said that, “Extraordinary claims required extraordinary proofs.” True so far as it goes. However, claims cannot be divided into ordinary and extraordinary. Rather claims can be anything from utterly mundane to positively fantastic. What makes a claim extraordinary (telepathic invisible pink bunnies from the outer other) and how extraordinary is the claim (bipedal apes in North America before the start of the Ice Ages)? Is the claim extraordinary at all (Norsemen in Nova Scotia in the year 1000)?
Re-frame claims said to be extraordinary in this fashion and see what happens.
What stood out to me was the “completed” cupboard. Not sure if all viewers will get this (especially believers because of their closed-mindedness), but read in its entirety without ignoring the ugliness, the bible is gruesome, just as the fully-read manual produced a gruesome cupboard.
I liked that.
I really liked that! What? Did watching steal precious time from your project to solve mankind’s problems? Yeesh, guys, lighten up!
Funny, this past Sunday I had a very similar conversation with this couple of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I told them that in a sense, they fundamentalists are more honest than, say, catholics, who just excuse their way-out-there beliefs with “ineffable” bullshit metaphors. We spoke for an hour an a half at my door, it was pretty entertaining, at least for me.
Hopefully they got something from what we discussed. I just told them basically, you have made all your conclusions about life and the universe based on that one assumption (that the bible is true). Haven’t you ever considered you could be wrong (and mentioned other beliefs, and that science contradicts the bible)? and they didn’t know how to answer that. They’d never, it seems, even considered that possibility.
About this video, since the comparison is silly and in good fun anyway, it could have used some voices or some jokes here and there. But who am I to mess with the artistic integrity of the people who do silent animations with mellow piano soundtracks?
“all bullshit” anagram aside, i think the analogy is flawed. they never once presented a person without a cabinet.
@Charlie Elef3u: (#85)
not gruesome. just a clusterfuck, and without much in the way of legs to stand on. it has some clearly nonsensical bits. some clearly functional bits. some bits with pretty colors. and some ugly parts. you know, if you read the whole manual. the problem is, of course, that the bible’s not really a manual. and treating as such is just… well, it leads to weird cabinet design.
@Andyo: (#87)
jehovah’s witnesses don’t like me. i think it has something to do with me telling them that they’re pronouncing the name of god incorrectly. seems to really push their buttons. especially because i can explain the linguistics and the history behind the error, and they generally have no reply to that. (because, um, there are still wrong ways to read that manual… )
no, it just sucked.
The drawer set he makes with the manual is an anagram, I think: “ALL BULL SHIT”…cool
My take on this is that throwing your cupboard away is like commiting suicide; and not having a cupboard is the same as not being alive. Everyone living has a view of “something”,
whatever it may be.
I think the uncle was Mormon.
White drawer + black drawer = Old & New Testaments
George has 3rd drawer, book of Mormon.
Or George is Muslim, with the drawers each being a prophet.
And he wasn’t going to molest the kid, he wanted to play sports.
****
And it really pissed me off when I was a kid and the evangelical kids told me I was an atheist (I was deist) and was going to burn in hell. I did drop a few friendships, because who wants to be friends with someone who thinks you’re so evil somebody had to face capital punishment for your crimes, and not only that, but it was someone else executed in your place, and you were supposed to call it justice and mercy and be grateful, or be tortured forever.
I liked it. I would have prefered a narrator to break up the continuous music a little.
I see it got you all talking anyway, so it can’t have been too bad.
We even discussed history too, though one could say I don’t know diddly-freaking-squat about the history of the bible. They seem to know even less. I kept asking them questions about who wrote it, and they kept quoting me from the bible. It was like having a discussion with Stephen Colbert. When they said, “we know the bible is true, because the bible says it’s true”, they weren’t kidding though.
We had some fun talking about Noah and the “do you know how many species of insects there are?” question, Lot’s wife and god’s pettiness, Abraham, Methuselah and his multi-hundred-year-old life… It was kind of fascinating to me see how they honestly deny reality. Nice change from those weasely catholics I’ve dealt with before.
Brilliant! Thank you :)
Very nice.
Clever, and quite moving at the end.
If you didn’t enjoy it, and particularly if you actually hated it, you may be coming across to people as a grumpy, souless and perfectly dull obsessive, atheism (or hatred of religion) being the focus of your obsession. You are likely completely unaware of this, and even less likely to actually be that person. This is a heads up.
Although this video was long, I really connected with it. I’m not sure if there is actually a less pretentious analogy. It seems to me that the author had a very similar experience to me, except I didn’t really LOSE friends because I was nice. However, I did needlessly avoid some people and condemn some of my friends to hell (nicely).
If I follow the analogy correctly, not everyone goes through the experience of making the complete cupboard. I did, and that is exactly why I left the faith. At the end, I saw my complicated cupboard, and realized that the entire world had a different cupboard than me, and had no way of testing to make sure my cupboard was right, except by years of scholarly bible searching (if they made it to the bible). Even the Internet had began to fail in bringing me like-minded companions. All my former friends were telling me that my cupboard was no only wrong but would condemn me to hell. They wouldn’t listen to *why* my cupboard was like that (I was a budding rationalist). They were praying to the same God, and yet continually got “replies” from that God that I was wrong and they were right. I realized that our replies must be coming from ourselves.
@arachnophilia #85:
I think the point is that nobody is without a “cabinet.” We all have a worldview. It’s either one we come up with ourselves, or one we are raised with. There are certain things that you value and certain perspectives you have, even if it’s a skeptical perspective.
This doesn’t mean that your “cabinet” is any kind of belief at all.
I liked this video. Sure, it won’t convince the zealots, but nothing will because the problem is in their heads. It is a cute production of a good analogy and it was fun to watch.
And for the record, I stopped eating with my group of friends freshman year in HS precisely because of all their religio-bigotry and derisive comments about gays and girls who would terminate a pregnancy.
I love the way the buds on the wall paper bloomed into flowers when she had her awakening. (Anyone else notice?) I hope that doesn’t mean I have an indigo drawer.
I thought it sounded more like Steve Reich than Philip Glass.
I thought this was really well done.
Touching and sweet.
@ #85, I completely agree. The part that stood out to me was when he built the cabinet exactly as the manual described, and it didn’t work. I’m not atheist, but kind of agnostic. I guess my cabinet is just a pile of pieces that I haven’t decided how to put together yet.
@ #37, I envy you and wish that I could have gone to Dungeons and Dragons camp.
And When she came there
The cupboard was bare!
I really enjoyed that. It’s well made and doesn’t hit you over the head with one viewpoint, but stresses the fact that everybody has a different viewpoint, which they think is right.
@Andyo: (#94)
they sure aren’t! JWs are some of the most programmed fundies i’ve run into. but they’re nice people generally? it’s sorta funny how little they know about the bible. but when you approach it from a certain attitude, like “everything in its true” and then just kinda trust your church about what it actually says, it really gets in the way of learning anything about the book at all.
a lot of the history of the bible is actually known from study of the bible alone. but you have to be willing to look at things like conflicts between sources, anachronisms, writing style/voice, and just plain absurdities. and they’re not willing to do that.
yeah, those people who compromise their faith by accepting reality are real hard to deal with. especially if the admit they’re probably crazy. like, um. me, i guess.
@Icelander: (#99)
oh, ok. cabinet = way you live your life. (wouldn’t worldview, in some way, be a sort of belief? even though some are more justified than others…)
Liked this one. The facial expression were done fairly well and this really can be applied to other areas. I mean people are ruled by fear and ego so this works for whatever prob in life. Also it makes me want to make a personal cupboard for myself, with Dolomite knobs.
as a Bible-believing christian i liked this clip alot, the boy did well to read the book himself instead of just believing what he had been taught (by people unwilling to face up to the inconvenient instructions), but he abandoned things to easily when his first attempt to understand things resulted in an odd looking cupboard, he should have tried harder to understand something he might be missing, and try to imagine how the cupboard might actuality be good as is. I find it odd that no free-thinker freely chooses to use an instruction-manual cupboard.
@david oman: I think this was not what the clip was about. It was about how he learned to love his parents despite of them having manual-specific cupboards and his parents began to accept him despite of him having constructed his own cupboard.
As for my thoughts on the video while being an atheist, looking at the comments on Youtube and other places, it’s ironic how people try to nail someone to a tree just for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change.
thank you
Beautiful! Thank you!
Sorry to miss you in SciOnline 09 – my son was so eager to meet you there as well. Greg took a photo of him promising to add a beard and make him PZ ;-)
All the best
Tanja & George