Good grief, but this is tedious. I’m still getting piles of email every day from people 1) begging me not to abuse a cracker because it is so sacred to them, piles of email telling me to 2) abuse a book because it is so sacred to Muslims (I’ve even been sent two copies of the Koran!), and of course, the 3) bizarre complaint that I’m a coward, afraid to commit sacrilege. You can all stop now. 1) Your personal sense of the sacred in a piece of bread dough is absurd to me and imposes on me no sense of obligation. 2) Since I now own one entirely superfluous copy of the Koran, it will meet the very same fate as the crackers. Thanks to all who have demanded that I treat that silly book with disrespect, I’ll have to treat both equally. 3) I have not rushed to be rude to a cracker because, well, it’s there, it’s ridiculous, and it’s not very important. I’ve been traveling, and I’ve come home to writing deadlines, and those get first priority. Heck, going into the kitchen right now and fixing myself a sandwich for lunch has higher priority. After I’ve cleared the deck of my work this week, then I might take a moment to casually demolish a sacred cow.
Now enough. You can all stop dunning me. Be patient, godless ones, and surrender to despair, O Ye Believers. And if this turns into another thousand comment thread, I shall be very, very cranky.
Look. This is the kind of crap I’m getting all the time, and I’m getting a little tired of it. Gary Silis of Australia, IP address 60.229.16.24, you are a freaking moron. Do you even see any of the the logical flaws in listing people who denied your inane, petty god who have also died?
All you god-walloping, jebus-lovin’, spamming fools for christ are convincing me of nothing other than that people can be really, really stupid. You are not advancing your cause. You are making your whole faith look like a special ed class for people with dingleberries for brains.
I’d suggest that you not write to me unless you’ve got something intelligent to say, but Gary Silis probably thinks he’s made a brilliant, ingenious, knock-dead argument instead of the exercise in insipidity that this is:
DID YOU KNOW THESE FACTS?
I SURE DIDNT TILL NOW
Death is certain but the Bible speaks about untimely death!
Make a personal reflection about this…..
Very interesting, read until the end…..
It is written in the Bible (Galatians 6:7):
‘Be not deceived; God is not mocked:
for whatsoever a man sow,
that shall he also reap.
Here are some men and women
who mocked God :
ohn Lennon (Singer):
Some years before, during his interview with an American Magazine, he said:
‘Christianity will end, it will disappear.
I do not have to argue about that. I am certain.
Jesus was ok, but his subjects were too simple, today we are more famous than Him’ (1966).
Lennon, after saying that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus Christ, was shot six times.
Tancredo Neves (President of Brazil ):
During the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes from his party, not even God would remove him from Presidency.
Sure he got the votes, but he got sick a day before being made President, then he died
Cazuza (Bi-sexual Brazilian composer, singer and poet):
Durng A show in Canecio ( Rio de Janeiro ),
while smoking his cigarette, he puffed out some smoke into the air and said:’God, that’s for you.’
He died at the age of 32 of LUNG CANCER in a horrible manner.
The man who built the Titanic
After the construction of Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe the Titanic would be.
With an ironic tone he said:
‘Not even God can sink it’
The result: I think you all know what happened to the Titanic
Marilyn Monroe (Actress)
She was visited by Billy Graham during a presentation of a show.
He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her.
After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she said:
‘I don’t need your Jesus’.
A week later, she was found dead in her apartment
Bon Scott (Singer)
The ex-vocalist of the AC/DC. On one of his 1979 songs he sang:
‘Don’t stop me; I’m going down all the way, down the highway to hell’.
On the 19th of February 1980, Bon Scott was found dead, he had been choked by his own vomit.
Campinas (IN 2005)
In Campinas , Brazil a group of friends, drunk, went to pick up a friend…..
The mother accompanied her to the car and was so worried about the drunkenness of her friends and she said to the daughter holding her hand, who was already seated in the car:‘My Daughter, Go With God And May He Protect You.’
She responded: ‘Only If He (God) Travels In The Trunk, Cause Inside Here…..It’s Already Full ‘
Hours later, news came by that they had been involved in a fatal accident, everyone had died,the car could not be recognized what type of car it had been, but surprisingly, the trunk was intact.
The police said there was no way the trunk could have remained intact. To their surprise, inside the trunk was a crate of eggs, none was brokenChristine Hewitt (Jamaican Journalist and entertainer)
said the Bible (Word of God) was the worst book ever written.In June 2006 she was found burnt beyond recognition in her motor vehicle.
Many more important people have forgotten that there is no other name that was given so much authority as the name of Jesus.
Many have died, but only Jesus died and rose again, and he is still alive.‘Jesus’
PS: If it was a joke, you would have sent it to everyone.
So are you going to have courage to send this?.I have done my part, Jesus said
‘If you are embarrassed about me,
I will also be embarrassed about you before my father.’
You are my 8 in 8 seconds. I am not breaking this. No way!
I’M TOLD THIS WORKS!!!!! Bishop T.D. Jakes ‘8 Second Prayer.’ Just repeat this prayer and see how God moves!!
‘Lord, I love you and I need you, come into my heart, and bless me, my family, my home, and my friends, in Jesus’ name. Amen.’
Pass this message to 8 people {EXCEPT YOU AND ME}.You will receive a miracle tomorrow. I Hope that you don’t ignore and
let God bless you.
Great ghu, but you mindless Christian fanatics sure are inane. Now stop. Seriously. Your “I’ll pray for you and hope you burn in hell” notes are accomplishing nothing but the further hardening of my black, shriveled heart. I’m becoming convinced that Satan has eaten out your brains.
I’m sorry PZ!
Couldn’t resist…
Sully: Way to wax philosophical about why you can’t accept that we were rude to a guy who has been asking “why don’t you guys curbstomp gay Zoroastrian hobos in the name of fairness” (or such a equivalent rot) on more than one occasion. Afraid it doesn’t change the fact that he is not offering much of relevance.
No, I don’t have anything better to do.
I WIN I WIN FUCK ALL OF YOUR CRACKERS I’M GOING TO VEGAS TO CELEBRATE
LOL
Uh-oh – have we woken a sleeping Kraken and filled it with a terrible resolve?
Still, I’m not too worried – I’m a ways from the coast; it’ll have to be a very enthusiastic cephalopod to get to where i am…
Personally, I hope the prof stands on both of these “sacred objects”. The Koran will only be “desecrated” in the eyes of the loons who think that it is somehow special, and as for the host, who cares: IT’S A CRACKER.
It’s just gone 1,000 comments and time for the penguin on top of your computer to explode.
Bah. Missed it by *this* much. Congrats to NanuNanu.
I don’t think fucking the crackers is a great idea though. It sounds very dry and unpleasant.
Uh-oh. RUN! IT’S GONNA BLOW!
#973
They went after ethnic Jews – regardless of their actual practices or beliefs – and those who converted, as well as their spouses/children/grandchildren. Particularly in the later years of the Reich, they even ransacked church baptismal records looking for Christians who were Jewish by birth or ancestry. The intent was to wipe out not only the people and their religion, but their entire culture as well.
A friend of mine was born in Germany in the early 1930s. Her dad was Jewish and her mom was Catholic, and she herself had been baptized as an infant. She was 6 when her dad was taken away, but the Nazis left her and her mom alone because they “looked Aryan.” Had it been a few years later, she and her mother would have been sent to the camps as well. She never saw her dad again.
Horrible, horrible, horrible.
I sincerely hope this doesn’t turn out to be #1000.
RUN! GET TO DE CHOPPER!
Just remember, with all the whining about the disrespect shown to this Catholic “tradition”, history shows what happens when this crap it taken too damned seriously.
Yes! Last comment!
Thanks, madlol.
Horrible, yes. It’s kind of what I expected – as much as it still saddens (and infuriates at the same time) to hear it.
Hence my irate response to what Fr. J, that ‘disingenuous turd’, did in trying to imply that the cracker incident is even vaguely similar. His was an epic fail of the most digusting kind.
From Reynold Hall’s link in #1013:
The Catholic religion has a very bloody and a very idiotic history that continues today, especially the idiot part. If today’s Catholics had any moral values at all, they would throw their religion in the garbage immediately. It’s disgraceful to be part of a history that murdered innocent people because of an insane belief that crackers are sacred. To be a Catholic today, a person has to be a stupid asshole.
In the 19th century it was shown that the red color often found on the wafers was due to a fungus.
so…
not only were they killing people for crackers, they were stale, moldy crackers besides?
on a slightly more serious note, I keep wondering why we haven’t heard Ken Miller weighing in on what happened to Cook yet.
Regarding the following statement by PZ Myers in the post a week ago, “Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers?…”:
At a Catholic Mass, the Eucharist is offered to Catholics (and in certain circumstances non-Catholic Christians) as part of an act of worship. As a Catholic priest, one of my responsibilities is to guard against the desecration of the Eucharist. Those who comes forward to receive the Eucharist are expected to consume it before returning to their seat. If someone attempts to take the Eucharist back to their pew or out of the Church, they should be approached and asked to consume the Eucharist or give it back to the minister of Communion.
Knowing this, to encourage others to remove the Eucharist from a Church is to take advantage of the implicit trust in the good intentions of those coming up to receive the Eucharist at a Catholic Mass. This type of trust is foundational to a civil society.
The fact that Mr. Myers is encouraging people to breach this trust is precisely why the whole project is wrong. It shows a lack of respect to the persons involved in distributing the Eucharist.
P.S. I do agree that the Catholics calling desecration of the Eucharist as the worst possible hate crime are going overboard. Jesus is risen and his glorified body cannot be harmed by desecration of his bodily presence in the Eucharist.
Finally, the fact that threats have been made against Mr. Myers is horrible, and should be condemned in the strongest possible terms.
No shit. Who cares?
That’s the point. We don’t respect you fucking assholes and your history of genocide and stupidity.
And if they refuse to give up the worthless cracker you fucking assholes use violence to get it back. That’s what happened to the student.
You Catholics are assholes, and you Catholic priests are world-class assholes.
You Catholic retards used to kill people who abused your magic crackers. Now you just assault them, and try to get them expelled from their university.
To all Catholics reading this, and I don’t care how moderate you think you are, go fuck yourselves.
BobC:
If your intent is to inspire people that you hate to respond hatefully, I hope that you are disappointed. There is enough hatred in the pews already, enough hatred in the world.
If your intent is to inspire people that agree with your sentiments to chime in, I hope that they will think twice about what purpose would be served. You can’t make the world a better place by declaring the inherent assholiness of one-sixth of the world’s population!
I am sure that in the real world you probably have strong personal reasons for holding Catholicism in low regard, and that your outburst here may have felt liberating at the time. But hatred is really just another form of bondage.
Peace…SH
on a slightly more serious note, I keep wondering why we haven’t heard Ken Miller weighing in on what happened to Cook yet.
That is an excellent point, Icthyic.
I will grant that it is certainly a breach of protocol; whether it is also a breach of “trust” is something that I think might still be debatable.
However, I raised a point above which I would like to see your take on:
The issue arose in the first place because a student of Orlando-based University of Central Florida did perform this breach of Catholic protocol (or trust), and as a result, he, and his friend, came under fire from the Catholic Campus Ministries. And when I say “came under fire”, I mean “are under threat of expulsion from their publicly-funded college”.
I insist that in a secular society, while any religious organization may laud or chastise its own members as it pleases, it has no right whatsoever to interfere with its members (or anyone else, for that matter) outside of the context of the religion.
Or in other words, while the Catholic Church may exert any ecclesiastical punishment it wishes, up to and including excommunication, against any one who violates the the protocol (or trust) of the Church, it may not pursue them outside of the Church.
Do you agree? And if not, why not?
Do you support calling for the Catholic Campus Ministries to drop all charges from Webster Cook and Benjamin Collard, and to immediately cease to jeopardize their college careers?
Could you please make sure that more Catholics are informed of this? They keep coming here and insisting that Jesus can indeed be harmed in the Eucharist. I argued with them a bit that this made no sense, but they kept insisting that my argument was “flawed”, without specifying what the flaw was.
Jesus Christ BobC. As someone who likes to cuss like a drunken sailor, and as an atheist (before you go all apeshit on me):
Shut the fuck up. Take a deep breath and just shut the fuck up.
I will grant that it is certainly a breach of protocol; whether it is also a breach of “trust” is something that I think might still be debatable.
not even might.
Seemed a huge stretch to me, especially to basically equate a priest trusting that a paritioner is “on the level”, as being equatable to the level of trust that maintains an entire society.
sorry, father, but if what you suggest were correct, society itself would have collapsed ages ago, along with all the stolen communion wafers over the last 1000 years.
but…
we can turn that trust issue around, and ask you:
If maintaining a “decent” society requires trust, shouldn’t Mr. Cook be able to trust his fellow humans not to threaten his life or livelihood because he took a cracker?
I guess not, huh?
so, who exactly is really breaking the bonds of trust HERE?
PZ, or members of your own church?
Who is doing more “damage” wrt the issue of trust:
PZ, or Donohue?
If you, like most of us here, rather think it’s Donohue that’s really the problem…
why are you here attempting to remove the plank from our eye?
If anyone has a problem with my stating my views honestly, I give a shit.
Catholics are assholes. They have proven their rudeness again and again. I don’t respect them, and I see no reason to be quiet about their being assholes and being batshit crazy.
Try to remember a student was assaulted. They are now trying to get two students expelled and one professor fired.
Now remember why they are doing this. Cracker abuse.
I will repeat this as often as I want, Catholics are fucking assholes.
Posting in an epic thread?
Does anyone who’s so concerned about what I say about Catholics want to talk about the millions of people killed by Catholics in their long bloody history?
How about their brainwashing of millions of children? This child abuse continues today in millions of homes. What kind of people would abuse their own children with constant lying about sky fairies and science? Only Catholic assholes (and all other religious assholes) do this.
I will attempt the summoning.
Ken Miller, where are you?
#1027:
Toasting in an epic bread.
(User was banned for this post.)
grr. something is wrong with my internet connection; it’s slowed down to less than a 20 year old modem. I’m giving up the holy ghost for tonight.
‘nite.
Really? Do you have any evidence for that? Do you think appeasement of shit-for-brains Catholic assholes is a better idea?
Catholics are not the only problem. There’s the other Christians, the Muslims (don’t even ask what I think about them), and there’s the religious Jews who think their magic man gave them some real estate to own for eternity, no matter how many religious wars are required to take it and keep it.
There’s about 5 billion religious people in this world. Every single one of them is insane. Every single one of them, no matter how moderate they are, are at least partly responsible for religious violence and religious stupidity. And none of them care. They don’t care about the ignorance they cause. They don’t care about the needless deaths. Why don’t they care? Because they’re assholes. Should I be quiet about their being assholes? I don’t see what that would accomplish. Appeasement of religious insanity has so far accomplished nothing. In fact, religious violence and ignorance about science is getting worse, not better. I’m in favor of constant ridicule of these assholes. If somebody else doesn’t want to do that, that’s fine, but they got a lot of nerve to tell me what I can say and can’t say.
Hi BobC,
One way of winning in the eyes of the trolls is to have atheists appear to be a bunch of PZombies (TM). It is unlikely that the hard core Catholic or other fundies will convert to Atheism without a life altering revelation which would be illegal and unethical to stage. I suspect that one who is encouraged to think critically about religion or the supernatural would be more likely to reject it. How can we succeed at encouraging critical thinking on religion, supernatural, politics, environment, and everything that really matters for humanity?
Leni, You were not elected to be the boss of scienceblogs. You might enjoy being a bully and bossing people around, but you should know I don’t tolerate bullies.
Tell you what, Leni, you say what you want to say, and I’ll say what I want to say. If you have a problem with that, then you can go fuck yourself. OK asshole?
If somebody else doesn’t want to do that, that’s fine, but they got a lot of nerve to tell me what I can say and can’t say.
BobC:
I never tried to limit your speech, just to express my hopes that it wouldn’t have certain effects.
By the way, you are now picking a fight with 5 billion, rather than 1 billion. Is this progress, do you think? Why not add all the ones who are not religious but failing to flock to your cause? Surely they are ‘appeasers’ who should be similarly condemned? After all, aren’t they enabling the assholes?
Don’t you see that you are reacting just like the intolerant believers you find so distasteful: ‘you’re either with us or against us’, that sort of thing? Think about it!
Peace…SH
I am not here to say anything except that you use of vulgarity completely discredits you. I might have actually listened if you would have used language that was not so offensive.
If you had not had your picture posted I would have thought that you were an angry and illogical teenager.
Anyway.
As a human I am shocked by your actions. Please in the name of respect and decency return the Eucharist. What kind of person would purposly cause another harm? Atheist or Christian alike?
BobC: It goes from people who work hard making a contribution to the planet, believe they heaven when they die (better in my eye than many if not most atheists) to those who what to encourage the Rapture by starting WWW-III: Bat-Shit-Crazy. Of course in the middle are the wackos that want to turn the USA into a theocracy and brainwash their kids. Quite a logarithmic scale.
Posted by: Shannon Balthazor | July 22, 2008 4:37 AM
Ummm, the Eucharist is not a person….
Jesus Christ, Shannon. It’s a cracker! Oh My God! I just stabbed my stolen Eucharist and it’s bleeding!
Politics and environment, I don’t know.
Religion and supernatural, I suggested relentless ridicule of religious beliefs and ridicule of religious people. Let them know they can’t abuse their own children with religious insanity without being told they’re child abusers. Also, let the children know they are being abused and let the children know their parents are morons who are trying to ruin their lives.
Who most needs to be ridiculed are the priests, preachers, and other religious leaders. These are the people who make a living lying to children. They deserve contempt and intense constant ridicule.
That’s my suggestion. Others prefer appeasement, being nice, and trying not to offend anyone. I have seen no evidence appeasement works. I have seen much evidence ridicule works. That’s how I escaped the slavery of religion. My beliefs were ridiculed and I was laughed at. I will be forever grateful for the ridicule that convinced me to throw out my religion.
BobC:
Nobody is telling you what you can and cannot say. However, if there are 5 billion religious believers in the world, and if everyone was to treat each other without any civility, whatsoever — as is your right, of course, and it’s not like you are harming anyone, simply being uncivil — then I doubt that would make the world a better place, either.
And no, I don’t have any evidence for that, but you also have to consider the fact that you can only be as uncivil as you are, and to people who haven’t really done anything wrong, precisely because others are civil.
For instance, we can handle the fact that a tiny percentage of the population are criminals, but if everyone decided to become one, society would soon descent in chaos. And if everyone chose to call each other assholes for little more than posting on a blog, there wouldn’t be a great deal of constructive dialogue, and there is no where near enough of that as it is.
There are most certainly good arguments for being disrespectful to religion, at times, and particularly concerning the cases that you have highlighted, but that doesn’t mean that we need to throw abuse at random people when we have no idea what they stand for. Life is complicated, and although I would be embarrassed to be a member of an organization that has caused so much misery around the world, I don’t necessarily blame the people that are. What I will do is continue to remind them of that history, and I believe that to be fair.
Other atheists can do what they want. I don’t care what they do, as long as they don’t try bossing me around like you and the asshole named Leni did.
I have never in my life told another atheist what he should do. It’s a free country. People should do what they want, and they shouldn’t tell other people what to do. Probably most atheists completely ignore religious insanity. They act like it doesn’t exist. They never think about it, except maybe laugh at it occasionally. That’s fine with me. I’m not in charge of anyone.
I personally want to go after all five billion theists. They’re all insane, I don’t care how moderate they think they are. It’s ridiculous to believe in the 21st century there’s a magic fairy hiding in the clouds. It’s insanity, it’s slowing down human progress, and it’s killing American soldiers every single day. The people who think they are moderate are part of the problem. If the total wackos were the only theists, if everyone else was an atheist, the terrorists would be isolated and more likely to become extinct. That’s why I think all 5 billion theists need to understand their beliefs will never be respected.
BobC,
youre not getting the “best imitation of an angry truthmachine or scooter award” tonight anyway,so stop trying mate,whats gotten into ya lol?
//There are most certainly good arguments for being disrespectful to religion, at times, and particularly concerning the cases that you have highlighted, but that doesn’t mean that we need to throw abuse at random people when we have no idea what they stand for. Life is complicated, and although I would be embarrassed to be a member of an organization that has caused so much misery around the world, I don’t necessarily blame the people that are. What I will do is continue to remind them of that history, and I believe that to be fair.//
And as usual,Damian says it much better than I ever could !
“… that doesn’t mean that we need to throw abuse at random people when we have no idea what they stand for.”
I just abused a priest who tried to tell us we should respect his crackers. That wasn’t random. Priests are the worst of the bunch. They make a living lying to children and everyone else. Their career is spreading lies. They are professional liars. All liars are assholes and I will never hesitate to tell them that, especially if they are priests.
You know BobC,
the religionists are going to have a very bad day when our galaxy finally collides with Andromeda,cant imagine that going down well with the crowd anywhere…
Those 5 billion souls will be thinking hard about what went wrong that they incurred the wrath of their particular deity in such a way LOL
Its all so absurd,if it wasnt so sad,one could have a really good laugh about it.
I just wanted to stick up for Ms/Mr Pollard. See 967.
BobC,
Strange, but I really don’t think that will get you anywhere.
I’m all for attacking the religionists, but I think the more you want an attack to be efficient, the more incisive, objective and well thought of you need to make it.
The immediate reaction to such a statement from almost anybody will be, “I know catholics who aren’t assholes”, and basically whatever point you would be trying to make afterwards would be completely lost and you would automatically end up looking like the bigot, even if there are millions many more bigots within the catholics.
I just don’t think very general blanket statements such as this one are good attacks. They are very weak.
Posted by: Shannon Balthazor
1045…..oh boy, you guys be in big trouble now!
I had to post because I have an important question
:p
Has anyone sent PZ any magic underwear?
I haven’t been able to keep up with all these threads.
#1041
Great post
Isn’t it ironic that the professor doesn’t want to be bothered with email, yet he continues his assault? You have no one to blame but yourself! You continue your attacks yet want to be immune from responses? And you call Christians hypocrits!
What assault? Throwing a cracker in the trash is an assault?
Oh, that’s right. I keep forgetting. Those crackers are the most important thing in the world, and far more important than any human beings.
(User was banned for this post.)
Really? Thank you! That was getting tedious.
PZ…
Ok, done. One thousand posts. 1000. Now you’ll get very cranky, ‘s that it?
Jeez, you post-millenarists are strange people.
To the rest of us, it’s just a fracking number.
It’s not just the cracker people who are inept at reading their own allegedly holy book though. It’s an extremely common problem among theists (you’d think the gods could write/inspire better quality!). It’s mostly that some of them are much more obviously insane than others in the stuff they make up (additions, deletions, selective mis-interpretations or creative re-interpretations of what’s there) and also more violent about then defending those crazy falsehoods.
Hmm… another weirdness. A ] character got added to the end of the link on copy-shortcut and paste. It should have been this (checks, re-checks, previews, checks resultant page and auto-bounce to actual comment etc).
I save most of my wrath for the professional liars who call themselves priests. Priests are used to being respected. I prefer to be honest with them. They’re worse than scum and that’s what I tell them.
Little old ladies who are so brain-dead they could never understand reality, I go easy with. They can be ignored. They’re too stupid to know how worthless their lives are.
However if the little old lady is a Sunday school teacher spreading lies about evolution, I might not be so nice. There’s no excuse for lying to children, no matter how hopelessly stupid the teacher is.
Jim1138:
Something a troll would say and that a real poster would likely not.
Care to justify this?
Where ridicule is most effective is when it’s directed against creationist politicians. In Florida where I live our new public school science standards make evolution a big idea of science. The attacks against the new standards were relentless and the ridicule of the creationists was even more relentless. There was no appeasement at all. The creationist politicians were called idiots and everything else. The standards survived and we now have perhaps the best science standards in America. Not bad for hick infested Florida. It was a great victory that was made possible by constant ridicule of religious idiots.
I can see that’s what you want to tell them, but when you end up saying that catholics are fucking assholes, they end up getting a nice and warm comfortable feeling.
Wouldn’t it be nice if I could tell a priest, on an atheist blog, to go fuck himself, without other atheists giving me a hard time about it.
I don’t remember ever telling an atheist what he should say or not say. I mind my own business. If only everyone else could do the same, wouldn’t that be nice.
Methinks BobC’s method of exorcising religion from main stream real-world stuff is spot on if I read right. Someone steps into the public to impose their sick superstition justified lifestyles, views, and/or laws on what is supposed to be a free and secular society should be booed loudly off the stage.
Call it what it is – child abuse, tyranny, insanity, stupidity, etc., and if the concepts are the person then that person deserves the adjectives of the concept.
One must pick your battles and I believe BobC agrees with me that it is poor form to ridicule poor old Aunt Tilly on her deathbed when she says she’s looking forward to seeing Uncle Fester soon. But those that make a living out of promoting dangerous superstition – dangerous because superstition and religious dogma and even secular dogma make humans less human-centric and give justification to horrific actions against others – need to be run out on rails.
There is no good religion; religion is generally dangerous because it softens up the human mind – it makes the mind more susceptible to control and dampens sympathy for those not of the same mind. The divine right of kings – the divine right of Hitler; the pope is infallible – the president knows best. Religion breeds followers and establishes ITS chosen leaders to perpetuate institutions that benefit from humans taught to comply without much resistance. Dangerous – and ridicule is mild and very civilized resistance to it.
Um:
BobC wrote:
That’s easy. Just get your own blog — they’re free.
Goooood morrrrning Pharynguliiiiiiisssstaaaaas!!
I see the goal was achieved and we can look forward to Cranky PZ waking up and getting a look at the comment count any minute now; nice job…but wait! According to Shannon (#1036) any use of “vulgarity” immediately and completely discredits any statement. (Because Latinate euphemisms are just oh-so-much more civilized and meaningful than their “vulgar” Anglo-Saxon cognates, donchaknow.)
I think that means that many of these comments–the several hundred from Bob “Fuck those Asshole Priests” C, for example–DO NOT COUNT. Repeat: DO NOT COUNT.
We therefore need to get going on a couple hundred more NON-VULGAR comments to hit the Crankymark.
I’ll strat things off in just a sec…
(I would “strat things off,” except I play bass…maybe I can “start” though…)
Hey, Fellow Atheists! Know what I think about the whole magic-cracker thing?
FUCK THOSE ASSHOLE PR aaaa shit.
Do-over:
I do not understand why such a kerfuffle (Shannon: is that “vulgar? no? OK…) is being made over a “constipated host.” I’m sure his guests would understand if he’s not feeling well, and a nice Phillips Screwdriver (Milk of Magnesia + vodka) at cocktail hour would allow both socializing and an eventual solution to his problem. Just because a little apres-digestive discomfort showed up at the same time as the scheduled party is no reason to
what?
never mind
[/Litella]
SvenDiMilo,
you crack me up at times mate,do you have one of them Molly thingies yet??
Not sure if it was you who said a few thousand posts up that its funny that the roped pedos actually mumble stuff in latin over their crackers,which is kinda the language of their enemies at the time,as opposed to whatever lingo the faithful were conversing in back then ! I thought that was a rather splendid remark.
I would also point out that swearing and taking the Lord’s name in vain is sinful.
I would also point out that swearing and taking the Lord’s name in vain is sinful.
blah blah blah blah
Again–their petty deity imposes a blood penalty simply for being offended.
Hey! This thread went over a thousand comments!
I feel…I feel very…hmmm.
I feel the same as I always do. VERY CRANKY!
BobC #1060
I am aware of all atheist traditions. As far as I know, BobC is free to air his concerns and express his opinions on this blog. I don’t have any problems at all with what BobC posts. He’s been rude, crude, with a bad attitude. Who cares?
Pete Rooke,
I would also point out that Pete Rooke is a goddamned fucking idiot. Oh, wait – everyone knows that already.
As you were.
That’s it?!?!?1
From now on, when I meet people who annoy me, I will swallow my annoyance and send up prayers on their behalf. Who knows, my prayers might move God’s hand in such a way that it will help those people to live out the story of their faith.
Religious people also struggle with annoyance.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sneed01.htm
There’s only one hand moving, Pete, and it isn’t your god’s – wait, isn’t your lord supposed to frown on that sort of thing? Sin of Onan and all that?
Sven, although PZ provided the comment thread (a service) free of charge, he did so with the understanding that it would not be used to post over 1000 comments, so what you are doing is incitement to fraud! Cease and desist!
BobC,
Oh but I don’t mind at all that you tell this priest or whoever that is that he’s a fucking asshole, he deserved it.
But as you will notice, as soon as you come up with blanket statements such as “catholics are fucking assholes”, you are going to get some reactions, even from people who aren’t religious and who are against religion.
I’d even argue that such blanket statements that show so much subjectivity are actually exactly what the religionists would love to hear from us;
It’s actually quite simple, if you want to attack a certain category of people for, objectively, being assholes, and then you include them in a much larger category of people who subjectively, you end up attacking as assholes also, you’re giving the first category a very good excuse :
a) to focus on subjectivity, which is their favourite territory
b) to feel innocent, if he thinks all catholics are assholes, what do I care about whatever objective reasons he may have to think that us priests are assholes ?
Plus you will get every single person, whatever his religiosity, or non religiosity, who personally knows a catholic who he doesn’t regard as an asshole, against you.
If I read a statement that I think works against decreasing religiosity, I’ll just say what I think, and why. I expect others to do the same to me.
I do think that if some people seem to spend so much time on this blog is that they really feel the urgency and share a real common interest in trying to find ways to decrease the disastrous effects of religion in this world. It just so happens that we don’t all seem to agree on the best tactics and the rethoric for our attacks.
I just know one simple rule, focus on your strengths. And our strengths are objectivity, facts, critical reasoning. And not subjectivity and emotional over reaction.
ConcernedJoe said:
Sure, but the question is whether there is a difference between booing [as a general protest] and saying, “We don’t respect you fucking assholes and your history of genocide and stupidity” to someone who hasn’t, as far as we know, “imposed their sick superstition justified lifestyles, views, and/or laws on what is supposed to be a free and secular society”, and has instead left a rather bland, non-confrontational, message on a blog.
So, the choice is not as you describe it, at all. It’s between explaining where and why you don’t agree, and essentially telling that person to go fuck themselves. And as I have already said, if we all did that, I could almost guarantee that even those who think that we should only tell believers to GFT would start to doubt their own thesis, just as most criminals would think twice if they were being robbed, raped, and murdered on a regular basis.
ConcernedJoe said:
No, first do the work to show that it is what you claim that it is. If you are allowed presuppositions, without having to ground them in evidence, then so are believers, and we all know where that leads.
Our biggest strength is evidence — or the lack there of, in terms of gods existence — so why you would want to hand that advantage back to them, I have no idea.
ConcernedJoe said:
But once again, you need to be able to justify this. It is a statement of faith, otherwise. Argument is our friend.
ConcernedJoe said:
I certainly believe that ridicule is a valid tool for exposing falsehoods. If you have good arguments and good evidence, ridicule is useless — it doesn’t matter if you ridicule the Theory of Evolution, at least not in terms of its value as a theory. While there are few good arguments and there is almost no good evidence for the existence of god, religion has had a long time to construct defenses against criticism. They may not convince you or I, but that doesn’t mean that we can casually dismiss them, either.
I’m quite interested in the philosophy of religion. Make no mistake, there are theists that could run rings around pretty much anyone who visits this site, even if there are numerous flaws in their arguments.
It doesn’t matter how deluded we believe that even the intelligent theists are, we have to be able to expose the flaws in their arguments, and show that one premise doesn’t follow from another, etc, etc. Yes, in the end it is all mental masturbation, but telling them to GFT is not going to work.
My fear is that while it is sensible to employ a range of tactics against religion, the last thing that we need is to become complacent and lazy, expecting that abuse and ridicule is the answer to everything. It isn’t, and thankfully most atheists are fully aware of that.
And there is also the issue of a baseline civility, as well, pending a reason to be hostile. If you say the same thing, regardless of the content of a post, does that not suggest that you really have very little to offer, that you prefer to bully your opponents, rather than engage in an intellectual battle? That is the kind of thing that we see from some believers — almost as if they are programmed to say essentially the same thing, over and over again, no matter what you say in return.
In the end, it would be suicidal for us to become complacent and dispense of our greatest weapon — reason — in favor of a tactic that only works in limited circumstances.
From now on, when I meet people who annoy me, I will repress this natural human response without examining it or seeking out productive avenues to deal with real human conflict. I will attribute the cause of my own emotional state entirely to others, and direct my aggressive incantations their way while taking no interest in their point of view.
Gee,
its all in 3D and color now….
Now,as to calling people fucking assholes and all that…..Its like wanking when you have no girlfriend really,gives you relief for a lil while but doesnt really satisfy you,and leaves you a bit empty after….I dont know,I often get irate at christian fucked -up in the head people,but I also realize that antagonizing them further is not going to help me win the argument.
Now ridicule,theres something we can talk about ! Im all for it,no swearwords,just plain old laughing at their ever ridiculous arguments,and I really think that does make a difference !
“PZ has already decided to desecrate a Quran.”
Perhaps you should get some critical thinking and reading skills Fr. J, but then again, since you believe the bible you apparently don’t have those.
PZ has not said he was going to desecrate a koran. He said he was going to do the same thing to it that he was going to do to a cracker. Tossing both into the garbage is the same thing. Trash received in the mail is trash received in the mail, a simple, common sense tautology. Doesn’t matter who sent it or what it is, it’s trash. What the senders believe it is is irrelevant. If the receiver doesn’t believe it’s holy, how is it desecration?
PZ, count me in for a vote with one of the (much) earlier comments – send the koran to Phelps, the cracker to a radical muslim.
> While we’re on it, though, is there any mention of
> what happened to the ‘Aryans’ who’d converted to
> Judaism? I’ve not heard any stories about that.
Under the Nuremberg racial laws, any person that converted to judaism was to be treated like an ethnic jew. That`s entirely illogical by the Nazi`s own biologist standards, because the Nazis claimed to be racial antisemites rather than religious antijudaist, but than this whole Nazi crap was never meant to be logical in the first place.
In occupied eastern Europe, however, some – if not all – local commanders left the ethnically turkish Karaites alone, in spite of their quasi-jewish religion. Probably the Germans feared to alienate their Azeri, Turkmen and Tatar auxilliaries if they oppressed a fellow turco-mongol people, or they feared that Turkey might have joined the allies in this case.
Bob needs some deep breathing exercises. He says he “won’t tolerate bullies”….funny since he really comes across as one. He says he hates that Catholics are so rude. Really? And you’re Mr. Manners? If you hate Catholics, that’s fine but at least be careful in stating your reasons for hating them because your emotional rants can make you sound a tad illogical there, Bobby.
Congrats on topping the 1000!
Good point, Windy! By clicking on the “post” button, you are clearly affirming your submission to the rules and edicts of the Church of Pharyngula, and since I clearly state that I do not want another thousand-comment thread here, everyone with a comment number above 999 is clearly in violation.
I shall be sending out harrassing letters to all of your employers, demanding that you be fired. If that doesn’t work, wait for the rabid attack-atheists to show up at your door with a lead pipe to beat your brains in.
I am shocked at the self-professed Christians who are exceeding the bounds of civility by posting here, disrupting our godless circle-jerk. Don’t they know they must RESPECT OUR BELIEFS?
– PZ Myers @ #1084
Typical hypocritical high priest.
Typical hypocritical high priest.
At least he isn’t fucking the kids!
With PZ only very cranky instead of very, very cranky, we seem to have avoided a catastrophe.
The Catholic concern trolls only seem interested in talking about crackers and the perceived over respect due their religion. I challenge them to talk about the unchristian persecution of the two students at UCF before they even mention crackers.
As far as respect for their religion goes, I’ll give theirs the same respect they show mine. If they sow disrepect, they get disrespect.
SC and MAJeff at 1085 and 1086 respectively – do you any idea how hard it is to get honeyed coffee off a monitor screen?
Pax Nabisco y’all, as they say in the southern part of the Vatican.
PZ has a point, you know.
Theists disrespect our deeply-held disbelief.
(sigh, honesty compels me to admit that some don’t).
Stupid honesty.
//Don’t they know they must RESPECT OUR BELIEFS?//
Ahem,no…….
Very rarely have I heard a christian come here and say… “I respect your belief that there is no god, I know my belief is based solely in faith, and I can live with that.” And even when they do, they turn around and try to either tell you why your disbelief is wrong, or call you foolish.
I see the Catholic League has a new release on their site today about Meyers and the Koran and giving folks the email address to Ibrahim Hooper at the Council on American-Islamic Relations. I’m really beginning to think this Donohue guy don’t like PZ at all. I mean I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. Anyway here’s the link…
http://www.catholicleague.com/release.php?id=1464
SEF @ #845
Yeah. Donahue isn’t happy with just Catholics sending death threats to PZ. He wants to makes sure that death threats come from Muslims too. I think it’s a ploy so that Catholics don’t look so crazy.
Donohue claims PZ is making a threat. I think it’s not, it’s a promise.
And since Donohue believes a Q’ran can be desecrated, I bet he adheres to all Islamic traditions as well (honor killings, halal, etc). I think his head is so far up his fundament that he can see daylight.
Mr. Myers,
You wrote
Since I now own one entirely superfluous copy of the Koran, it will meet the very same fate as the crackers. Thanks to all who have demanded that I treat that silly book with disrespect, I’ll have to treat both equally.
Please do not do this. I am an orthodox Catholic who hates the thought that you would desecrate the Eucharist, but I would rather see you desecrate it a thousand times over than place your life in any real immediate danger. Please proceed with your originally-planned caper if you must, but please also leave the Koran out of it. Donate your entirely superfluous copy to a library or a prison or your local used bookstore, or even (quietly) to your fireplace. Think how differently Dan Brown and Salman Rushdie have been treated, and exercise a bit of prudence.
:[
im sorry for making u kranky PZ
everyone apologize
also @True Bob #1095: Donohue is aware of all Islamic traditions
Claim #1: I had no part in pushing this thread up over 1,000 comments.
Retraction #1: Oh wait. I did. Never mind.
Irony #1: “Aryan” has the same linguistic root as “Iran”.
Lesson #1: Honeyed coffee is a bad idea anyway.
Musing #1: The Nazi pogroms were all about race, ethnicity, and eugenics, but framed by Catholicism. My family comes from Kiev, Ukraine, and my grandfather was part of a group of nationalists who were caught between the Nazis to the west, and the Soviets to the east. While it is true that the German troops were at first seen by a good number of Ukrainians as liberators, and some even collaborated in the mass killing of Jews there, an equal or greater number came to realize that the cure was worse than the disease, and that the Slavs were on Hitler’s hit-list, too, and the Nazis would have eradicated us if he’d had the the chance.
These simple facts, and others that have been pointed out above, reveal that Friar Jay’s myopically grotesque suggestion would offend and horrify more than just the world Jewish community, it would be affront to Slavic Christians of all demoninations (Orthodox and Catholic both) and nationalities (Ukrainian, Polish, and so on), to the mentally ill an the physically handicapped, to homosexuals, to atheists, to any racial, ethnic, religious or ideological group that was targeted for extermination by the Nazis, and to anyone who abhors totalitarian persecution and genocide.
So while I do not advocate or condone the proposed desecrations, PZ is in charge of his own boat and may paddle it wherever he wishes. Friar Jay’s hysterical ejaculations, once again, lead nowhere.
Musing #2: Ken Miller? And what about Kevin Miller? Heh.
Thank you sir. I do agree with you.
And to the appeasement-loving atheists who think I don’t show asshole priests enough respect, please go fuck yourselves.
nanu, of course he is aware of them, he probably has people dig it up for his apprpriate spouting. The question is does he respect them enough to not violate them (Q’ran desecration means the Q’ran is sacred, see?).
Clarification #1:
This phrase from my most recent post, “the cure was worse than the disease,” was meant to imply that Nazi “liberation”, and all that came with it, was worse than Soviet oppression. Upon re-reading my comment, I realized that it could be read to mean that the cure (genocide perpetrated against the Jews) was worse than the disease (the presence of Jews in Ukraine), which of course is not what I meant.
Fuck the Pope!
No, really…he needs to be fucked with a six foot strap-on.
Dr. Myers,
Okay, I agree that there are many unreasonable comments posted to your blog by Christians, so I will try to make this one as reasonable as possible.
What you are threatening to do actually deeply hurts people, it deeply hurts me. I am a Roman Catholic, and I believe, not unreasonably but without any empirical evidence (there is a difference), that the Host is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. Okay, so you think that this is silly… but won’t the fact that so many people are really hurt by this be enough to convince you to just give the Host back to the Diocese and go on with your life?
So I am asking you as a fellow man, one who hasn’t figured everything out but who does have faith in something that I cannot see and sense, please do not desecrate the Host that I hold dear. You can ignore every stupid, senseless post of everyone who calls himself a Christian but then threatens you.. which is wrong.. but please, don’t ignore this one and just give us back the Host and let us worship as we please.
I won’t try to convince you of God’s existence, but you do know that good people exist… surely you’ve seen some of them and had a kind word from them at some point. How many of those were Catholic? You probably will never know. You know that so many good people will be hurt by this action, so I must ask you again, may we please have the Host back? To harm those people, with no gain to yourself, is truly unreasonable.
but won’t the fact that so many people are really hurt by this be enough to convince you to just give the Host back to the Diocese and go on with your life?
Try it yourself.
That’s the point James. Speaking only for myself, I don’t care if cracker abuse deeply hurts you. In fact, that’s why cracker abuse must be done. To demonstrate your beliefs are stupid, and to demonstrate your reaction to cracker abuse is even more stupid.
If you look back at one of the previous comments, you will notice the people of your religion, in the past, have murdered people who were accused of abusing crackers. It’s not much better today. The out-of-control Catholic terrorists are trying to get two students expelled from their university. That’s even more reason to abuse your crackers.
James. It’s only a cracker. You won’t be harmed in any way other than be offended, which is amusing because it’s only a cracker. Ignore PZ if you think you’ll be offended by the cracker destruction. It’s easy, we ignore theists all the time.
Believing something without empirical evidence is, by definition, unreasonable
You won’t be harmed in any way other than be offended, which is amusing because it’s only a cracker.
Well, his God did demand death, torture and blood for being offended….
James, I am deeply hurt when the Catholic church discourages its members from using contraception/STD barriers in various forms with threats of excommunication and hellfire. Any chance of repealing that offensive policy? Didn’t think so.
BTW, PZ has clearly stated the conditions under which he will surrender the crackers to his local diocese. Listen to the Catholic Radio International interview if you missed it. Ball’s in your court, pal.
By clicking on the “post” button, you are clearly affirming your submission to the rules and edicts of the Church of Pharyngula, and since I clearly state that I do not want another thousand-comment thread here, everyone with a comment number above 999 is clearly in violation.
That sounds like changing the rules to me. I assumed that the only person who should be blamed is whoever posted the 1000th comment, and one we were into the Zone of Crankyness, further posts would not matter.
That is my excuse anyway, and I am sticking to it.
So I am asking you as a fellow man,
Grrr.
I am a Roman Catholic, and I believe, not unreasonably but without any empirical evidence (there is a difference), that the Host is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.
So, the only reason you “believe” such an obviously stupid thing is because you’re a Roman Catholic? And if you weren’t a Roman Catholic, you wouldn’t believe it? Sounds to me like you realize it’s bullshit, but you have to go along with it because that is the official church party line. Nothing unreasonable there! :-D
…everyone with a comment number above 999 is clearly in violation.
Oh, you asked for it. Some of us like you best when you’re cranky. :-D
“I believe, not unreasonably but without any empirical evidence (there is a difference), that the Host is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.”
OK, so someone in a dress says magic words over a cracker and it becomes special. Explain how that is not an unreasonable belief.
Whatever he does to the damn crackers, it’s not going to hurt anyone! Clearly many will be offended, many will be outraged. Maybe some people’s feelings will be hurt (why?) but so what? I just got back a submitted manuscript; it was rejected and the reviewers were idiots and it hurt my feelings, but so what?
NOBODY IS GOING TO GET HURT. IT’S A FRACKIN CRACKER!
jeez, this is all re-re-re-re-re-rehash…what a waste of time.
#1110 Steve Zara:
NO
DON’T SELL ME OUT YOU TRAITOR
“I feel the same as I always do. VERY CRANKY!”
Perhaps you need Jesus in your life. *runs*
And getting back to Shannon @ #1036 (pointless I know, since I’m sure (s)he’s just a drive-by commenter), what vulgarity has PZ ever used in his posts? I mean, “god damn” was in the very first post on the matter, but that was eventually changed. Seriously, what language of PZ is vulgar? If you’re going to use that totally weaksauce complaint, you gotta at least back it up.
It offends you. Pretty much the point. You are no more materially “hurt” than was a Muslim upon the publication of cariacatures of the prophet.
Only where religion is concerned is there a difference, and even then, it is one that fails to make a distinction with force in the secular realm. By any common standard, your belief perfectly fits the label “unreasonable.” It derives from no reason, other than a doctrine that was never subject to reason in the first place.
And you know it’s silly, too.
Stomp your feet and get red in the face, say “really, really, truly, actually, really hurt” all you want, it still won’t amount to anything beyond offense.
“Life” for some includes occasionally offending the religious. PZ already said what it would take for him to release the sacred crackers. Why don’t you take it up with Donohue, or the congregation at UCF?
How is your worship impacted by this? Is there a cracker shortage?
These good people should reflect on the difference between offense to religious sensibilities and genuine, material harm, like being personally threatened or having one’s education disrupted.
#1103,
Why can’t these people simply say, I believe this, because I’ve been told to believe this since I was a child and to never ask myself if it made any sense ?
I have reviewed my posts and found nothing vile. However, as soon as I posted I received insults from the atheists. Not argument or debate, but insults. Sully is correct. Just the fact that I am a priest is enough for the atheists to forgo logic and only use insults. It’s all they have.
Windy @1076 – But.. But… I have posted nowhere near 1000 comments :-0
Fr. J. Apparently, you are dishonst, blind, or both.
Fr. J, I use logic with normal people. For religious people I use ridicule. For priests I use insults. You priests are the most worthless people on earth. Actually you’re much worse than worthless. The world would be many times better off if every priest, and every other religious leader, dropped dead.
Says you. All those hypocritical high priests are the same.
And the people in their churches are all assholes, too.
So everybody here with a post count over 999 is an asshole, asshole.
James, I don’t think you’re coming back, but if you do read this, I have a question about your ‘not unreasonably but without any empirical evidence (there is a difference)’.
To me, belief without evidence is not reasonable at all. You are making a claim, asserting that it’s a fact, and instead of evidence, all we get from you is ‘I believe it’s true’.
Even worse, this thing you believe in is impossible. The impossible requires fantastic evidence, more evidence than anything else should require, yet you have nothing. Not a shred of evidence. Then you say that’s not unreasonable.
My question is, why do you think I shouldn’t laugh at you?
Kseniya your #1098 was a useful post and, I regret the clarification of #1101 was probably necessary for the Fadda Guido, er Fadda J. types. (sigh)
That said, what is wrong with honeyed coffee young lady!?!??!!
Do pobachennya y’all as they say in southern Ukraine
PZ Myers:
Unfortunately we are out of lead pipes. However, we have leased several Black Helicopters from the Green Terror Environmentalist movement (who in turn purchased said helicopters on Ebay after the UN was bankrupted by environmental violation fines and forced to auction off its Black Helicopters).
“Fr. J. Apparently, you are dishonst, blind, or both.”
More insults! The whip stings him so! But it is a love not given lightly…
PZ…
As far as ‘desecrations’ go, why not send the crackers and the Korans (and any other spare religious objects of worship) to Bill Donohue hisself?
He might well return the crackers to the Roman Catholic church – but what would he do with the rest of the stuff? If he doen’t return the Koran(s) he underlines his bigotry (plus he can deal with the death threats that might arise). If he returns the Koran(s) he acknowledges that the crackers are not particularly special (plus he can deal with the death threats that might arise).
Plus the SquidMeister is off the hook!
Win/win/win.
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. — Diderot.
#1016:
He’s not one for getting involved in kerfuffles, especially arguments over religion. I get the strong impression he considers belief/nonbelief a personal matter and arguments over matters of faith to be pointless. (For the record, I agree with him. In 55 years as a Preacher’s Kid, I’ve seen good religion as well as bad, and I’ve never heard a convincing argument either way RE the question of a deity’s existence – all of which leaves me pretty much an agnostic.) He doesn’t participate in the blogosphere at all AFAIK, although he does have a good web presence via other writings and interviews.
He keeps pretty strictly to issues that relate directly to science and, in particular, to promoting and defending good science education, and since this doesn’t qualify, we most likely won’t hear from him on the subject.
Fr.J
Some of us think your demand that atheists terrorize Jews was vile. While anti-semitism is a popular pastime among Catholics, thinking people, i.e., atheists, don’t indulge.
That is a lie. In your very first post here you complained that as soon as you had a discussion with an atheist you got insulted with two or three minutes and it couldn’t possibly be your fault because you were so nice and kind. I responded that one reason why you got insulted by atheists was that you came across as extremely patronizing. My comments, while not laudatory to you, were polite. You immediately whined (and yes, whined is the correct term) that you had been insulted by several people including me.
They name streets after people like you. “One way.” You have a very thin skin. You see insults even when none was given or intended.
Have I mentioned that you’re a patronizing, pompous prig?
My question is, why do you think I shouldn’t laugh at you?
He never said you shouldn’t laugh at him. He just begged PZ not to ignore him. Laughing isn’t ignoring. Quite the contrary. *smirk*
I have reviewed my posts and found nothing vile. However, as soon as I posted I received insults from the atheists. Not argument or debate, but insults….Just the fact that I am a priest is enough for the atheists to forgo logic and only use insults. It’s all they have.
Fr. J: On another thread in this same blog, you equated the threatened desecration of allegedly-sacred objects with threats of violence aimed at a real human being. As I pointed out on my reply here, I am a Christian who finds that comment objectionable.
Again, I repeat, if it is your intent to make excuses for those who make death threats, you are a venomous toad and should be shunned. If I’ve misrepresented your position, please clarify: is there a moral equivalence between the two, or is one clearly more deserving of universal condemnation? You claim to be a priest, this is a good opportunity for you to parse some claims having to do with the moral order.
BTW, in case you can’t tell, I don’t make the mistake of confusing what a person believes or doesn’t believe with what they do or who they are. The God I believe in calls me to treat others as I would like to be treated. Or does your allegiance to a particular technical point of church teaching trump all that?
Fr. J,
you explicitly stated that personally and demonstratively insulting the dignity of the Jewish people by making fun of the victims of the Holocaust was equally hurtful as removing a wafer from the place where it was intended to be used as a part of a ritual.
If you can’t see that the degree of vileness required to write such a statement is almost unexpressible in any civilized language, then you are probably one of the most dishonorable, immoral, hateful, repugnant people who ever wrote anything on the internet. Your personality is not one iota different from those who applauded when the SA torched Jewish shops in my country 60 years ago.
I didn’t insult you in my previous post where I explained this to you, and I’m still not insulting you in this one.
Because I am a better human being than you are.
Well, PZ, if your purpose in life is to aggravate others and piss people off for no good reason, I would say you have accomplished this, and more.
This really is what we need in this world, is it not? More conflict, more self-righteousness, less self-responsibility, more name-calling, greater access to hateful speech; isn’t this great? How we all should call you Mr. Wonderfulness for your assistance in creating intensified disrespect, for pouring more gas on the fires of human conflict?
Ah yes, true-believers in the glorified Church of Science, Skeptics, and I’m All That such as yourself continue to bring so much good into the world. Where indeed would we be without you?
Shorter Jim Price (#1136):
“Roll over and take it in the ass, little boy. You wouldn’t want to cause a fuss, now, would you?”
You cracker worshippers are stellar people, you really are. I’m so glad we got a chance to know each other better.
BobC ,
Can you define how transubstantiation is impossible? Catholic teachings say that the physical appearance of the Eucharist is not altered but the substance of the Eucharist is, as Jesus is present, though not physically so.
While this is possibly irrational / lacking evidence I don’t see anything that makes it impossible.
Shorter CJO: “I’m a bigot. You’re an ass for pointing it out though!”
Bravo. Bravo.
And I will go on record as saying Myers will NOT desecrate the Koran or the Crack publicly. He’s a self-righteous ass and a petulant attention needing brat, but I think he’s self aware enough that video of such craven spitefulness will not wear well upon him, his family, friends or colleagues. Taunting is cheap and will stay confined to the interwebs, but video is a whole different ball of wax.
Because there is no such thing as substance and claiming that something is something else when its physical properties remain unchanged is lunacy?
#1139
… you… you don’t know what a lot of those words MEAN do you?
Skullberg (#1138), what NanuNanu said in #1140.
I would add it’s all magic to me. Magic is impossible.
Another problem with the magic Jesus crackers is Jesus is dead and decomposed.
Unless of course you want to believe he was resurrected and flew up to heaven. Unfortunately for your religion a resurrection and a supernatural heaven are impossible.
The Catholic religion is nothing more than a collection of impossible magic tricks, and of course all of the tricks were invented. Don’t ask me what I think of the gullible people who believe in Catholic magic.
Breaking heretics on the wheel and up to your knees in manure, throwing turnips at witches lashed to stakes with kindling piled at their feet.
While this is possibly irrational / lacking evidence I don’t see anything that makes it impossible.
*ROFL* *Possibly* irrational or lacking evidence?? More like, undeniably! What’s impossible is to actually believe this stuff. I keep seeing phrases like “I’m a Catholic, so…” or “As a Catholic, I believe…”, as if you have to put on a special Pope hat just to talk about the subject. I’m not so sure now that all this talk of deeply hurting Catholics is really about PZ insulting their deep beliefs. Maybe their real anger is at the church for sticking them with such a ridiculous doctrine at an impressionable age, then leaving them to try to defend it. Well it should be, anyway.
Emmet Caulfield, #1143, wrote:
Oh, I think you’re being optimistic. If we weren’t extinct we’d be reduced to the people who somehow managed to survive the medical problems that weren’t able to be cured by prayers.
All watched over by fattened and well-groomed king-priests – from a comfortable distance, of course.
BobC.
So you declare it definitionally impossible and therefore absolve yourself of the burden of proof. That’s not very convincing.
Don’t expect to get very far with that, but I assume that never has been your goal. Ridicule and feeling superior to the ‘other’ is. You’re so counter-culture I bet you have a faux-hawk.
1078 Damian thanks for your thoughts
I don’t think that I said fuck off general believers (or implied it).
I said (intended to say) those that promote insanity as a career of sorts are dangerous and not deserving of respect beyond that accorded to any other person knowingly or insanely pushing obvious BS.
BobC is really not speaking of the rank and file — he knows they are victims and most are really not believers but social or cultural members. Rather he is speaking of the con-artists or insane institutional promoters – that do impact our lives and freedoms significantly and want even more control and power.
And Damian how does logic and reason convince a true believer? who by definition believes because of faith (belief specifically in something without evidence or in light of contrary evidence). Religious belief is FAITH based and impervious to reason. And con-artists are certainly not interested in scientific evidence against their cash-cow snake-oil. So Damian what tools do we have other then holding them to the light without compromise.
However Damian — I agree 100% with you in the context of normal social intercourse with normal people who just feel they must believe or who want to believe they believe or who just need an excuse good enough to have the courage to say I don’t believe anymore. Society is tough on atheists who are uppity and let you know they are atheists. Try running for a high office in USA as the “Atheist Candidate” – but even try fitting in at the office in the Bible Belt. Many just need some help with facts and arguments to have the confidence to to come out of the mist and darkness of religion to themselves and publicly.
And Damian if truth be told – I would never call someone an asshole or ridicule them at a personal level if they are worthy of respect as a person in most other regards. And priests are people too. Many priests are victims too. And many priests have done a lot of wonderful things in a secular sense just because they are good people that maybe just happen to have a delusion we don’t. BobC is making a point by some hard talk. I’d bet dollars to pennies that BobC would differentiate between a true asshole and just a good person with a delusion via an indoctrination. I know I would – and bet so would PZ and so would RD, AND BobC — in their dealings with real people face to face. Blogs like this are safety valves for our frustrations with the grip religion has on our country; they are not meant to teach us etiquette.
NanuNanu,
I know what they ALL mean – and your point is?
CJO’s a bigot and PZ Myers won’t do it, because he’s at least that smart.
That simple enough for you?
Go back to Ork if you aren’t going to add anything substantive.
Skullberg,
Perhaps NanuNanu was referring to the post before that one, where you wrote:
I think his/her point would be that it’s magic, and magic isn’t possible.
ConcernedJoe, I agree with everything you said in #1147.
Skullberg in #1146 wrote:
I had to look up fauxhawk. It’s some kind of haircut, not the kind of haircut I get.
Your first sentence (So you declare it definitionally impossible and therefore absolve yourself of the burden of proof.) is correct. If you believe in magic tricks, it’s up to you to prove it. It’s not up to me to disprove what is really nothing more than a fantasy.
Of course you don’t have a shred of evidence for any of your Catholic magic. The only reason you believe it is because you were told to believe it. You were also probably told you would go to hell if you didn’t believe these insane inventions.
I assume you know what the word gullible means. That’s what you are, Mr. Skullberg.
Skullberg, you’ve said your piece.
Got anything new to add?
John,
I don’t.
I’ve no desire to evangelize, as I dislike evangelizing from Christians as well as Atheists – since neither can provide evidence of their conclusion.
I also don’t enjoy dealing with bigots, which Myers site seems to attract like a moths to flame.
I stand by my prediction that we will not see a video of Myers desecrating either a Koran or a wafer (though the latter is FAR more likely).
When I take a carrot and say “hocus pocus” over it, it turns into an elephant. It still looks like a carrot in all its orange crunchy goodness, but it’s really an elephant, large, grey, and trumpeting! Its “accidents” remain carrot, while its “essence” becomes elephant. After I eat it, the elephantness departs after 15 minutes or so as the carrot, er, I mean elephant, is digested.
By the same token, turning carrots into elephants is not impossible, or fairies having pixie-sex with hobgoblins.
It’s not so much that it’s “impossible” as that it’s ridiculous horseshit.
JeffreyD:
Oh, nothing. I was just being snarky, in the hope that you’d notice me. :-)
I confess I’ve never had honeyed coffee. Or transubstantiated host.
And certainly not the two together.
На добраніч!
The action of digestive enzymes on the cracker clearly proves that it has the substance of a cracker, not of flesh. The substance/accidents idea was invented by people with no knowledge of the atomic structure of matter.
Kseniya at #1154, I always notice you and read you, hooked on your wit I am. (smile)
If you drink coffee, try with honey. Tea is good with honey as well, but I still drink hot, black Russian Caravan tea with a sugar cube between my teeth. Earl Grey works well with honey, green tea should be sans adulteration.
Oh, Carr’s Water Crackers are great with the coffee or tea, that other cracker just does not measure up.
Ciao Bella
I recommend a book called “Theology and Sanity” to any of you who are courageous enough to set aside your false-pride. F.J. Sheed is the author. P.S. He’s smarter than all of us!
Kseniya said:
Or tardblossom excerement….don’t forget that. =)
So does cranky PZ raise his voice a bit, or is he still mild mannered, calm and rational??
I suppose we’ll have to go ask Skatje.
Skullfucker said:
Really? Care to put some money on it before it happens?
Cheers.
You are a sick man, Mr. Myers.
There is NO WAY you will go through this. You remind me of that dopey guy in Colorado, Ward Churchill.
TOO LATE!
I feel much sorrow for all of you. You seem to pride yourselves as being open minded intelligent people, but everthing I have read is the most ignorant and closed minded garbage I have ever seen. Have any of you and especially you PZ read the book Eucharistic Miracles are been to any of these places where they have occured? I pray that all of you will learn to have more respect for Our Lord Jesus Christ especially in the most HOLY EUCAHRIST and in everyone you meet. There are many things in life that are mysteries and can not be explained or proven, only God knows the answers. God Bless you all—remember Sal once persecuted Christians but was changed to St. Paul.
And that from someone who doesn’t even have enough respect to type the words correctly! Ho-hum … fundies … can’t live with ’em … would be nice to live without ’em …
PS Talking to yourself about your fairy stories won’t change a thing. Which is why your fellow fundies take it upon themselves to attack people, rather than obeying their allegedly holy scriptures saying to leave it up to god. They secretly know the uselessness of that to be true. Your god is not merely impotent but wholly imaginary.
Peace be with you SEF. Sorry my commputer skipped a letter–Saul— What if you are the one who has it all wrong. If my God is imaginary and impotent– how do you think you got here—-your God must be satan.
WOW!! He did it… Myers found God!! Praise the Lord!
That wasn’t the only error.
Way to leap to false (and insane / delusional!) conclusions there.
Just in case somebody wants to visit soon.
Paul & Mary Myers
300 College Ave
Morris, MN 56267
Oldest Son Alaric Myers, graduated from St. Cloud University 9/07
Middle Son Connlann Myers
Daughter Skatje Myers Attending UMM
I will pray for you Professor Myers. This is truly sad what has happened!! “Jesus I Trust in You”
Sorry guys i’ve been sick for a while.
Wowbagger, i read your link and i think the guy sets up a straw man. I in no way claim that human conscious minds control the universe. As far as his summary goes he just makes a whole lot of assertions without any substance behind them.
OK this is my view. Western science was successful because just about every founder of modern western science had the following worldview :
1st God is the fundamental basis of reality.
2nd God’s creates creation
3rd God’s creation contains laws.
4th Matter obeys God’s laws.
Now materialists have changed around the order so that :
1st Matter is the fundamental reality.
2nd Matter interacts in a mechanical way that we can describe by mathematical laws.
3rd This matter and mathematical laws makes up creation.
4th From our creation we have invented the idea of God.
Where Newton thought the measurable unchanging and universal description of reality was his proof for God whereas anomalies or chaos would be proof for no God, materialists today turn it around and say measurable unchanging and universal descriptions of reality mean there is no need for God and ask for anomolies for proof there is one.
I stand with Newton, the founder of physics, in the way he looks at the world and believe the materialists are wrong.
What i think quantum mechanics does is that it clearly suggests that matter is subserviant to the laws. It also writes consciousness in at a level above matter.
This fits in better with the first worldview and i think that worldview is still the better one today.
In order to avoid this pretty obvious conclusion, materialists have been forced to invent things like “Many Worlds” where the observer drops out of the picture because every possible thing that can happen, does happen.
Apart from the fact that it is not falsifiable, it just looks plain silly to me. But that is the best materialists have.
OK, i’ve had my say. Good luck with your site.
As a Catholic, at first I was kind of steamed about all the hullabaloo here. But it was, and I think, should be, just a transient feeling. I think the Catholics who went after this kid way overreacted. And let PZ have his fun. As long as I’m allowed to practice my religion, and PZ isn’t disrupting services at Catholic churches, I couldn’t possibly care less what he thinks of the Catholic belief system and its 1 billion or so adherents.
Religions should be able to be mocked, insulted, satirized, or ignored, without some kind of threat or physical harm coming to the person who initiated the perceived “insult”.
The purvue of science is only those things which can be measured and/or counted. For this discussion about something holy and sacred to be bounced around on a science blog is like a bunch of Catholic priests arguing over the gravitational properties of theoretical physical objects.
Also, imagine if the Israeli flag was being burned. It’s just a piece of cloth right? No. This story would surely make national news.
If you want to understand transubstantiation you have to read Aristotle, which I recommend as a scientist you do anyway.
There is only one truth, and science, philosophy and religion if they are true, cannot oppose each other. Truth cannot oppose truth – and human reason is limited, so one has to be open to the possibility of mysteries and incomprehensible truths.
Mr. Myers, I am a Catholic Christian and have the following comments. I have been reading your comments concerning your wish to desecrate the Eucharist as well as the Qoran. I realize that you’re an atheist and am not questioning your right to believe or to not believe as you choose. I am, however, questioning why you are so filled with anger and hatred over something you don’t believe to be real. I mean, if you truly believe that the Eucharist is not the true body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ but instead believe it to be only common food then why do you feel such a need to spend so much time writing about how much you wish to publicly desecrate it? I personally don’t accept the truthfulness and/or holiness of other non-Christian books and, because of this, I wouldn’t waste my time writing about how much I hate them and certainly wouldn’t go out of my way to show blatant disrespect and hatred toward such material. I’m curious to know exactly what have Catholics done to you that you feel this need to use your blog as a vehicle to spread hatred toward us? I’m Catholic: what have I done to you that you feel that my religion should be treated with such disrespect? What has the Catholic Church done to you? If these matters are so unimportant to you then why do you waste such precious time blogging about them? Why can’t you use your talents to teach what you know rather than to express hatred about something which you do not believe or understand?
I’m an atheist, a scientific skeptic and you should knock your showboating off.
You’re like the Jesse Jackson of the Internet.
@ #1170
That’s just retarded religious wibbling.
Religion is almost entirely false in every excruciating detail, except where it is merely accidentally right or steals facts from other places and tries to pretend ownership. It is never knowingly true in and of itself. Philosophy is largely rubbish or mental masturbation of the navel-gazing kind, without reference to reality / truth. Meanwhile, science is doing just fine at incrementally garnering truths or ever closer approximations to them.
In reality (eg science) one has to be open only to mysteries of the we-don’t-know-this (yet or in sufficient detail) kind and not of the religious woo-woo capitalised Mysteries kind with which I expect you are trying to equivocate.
zomg and xtians and catholics have the audacity to call us “pagans”….i don’t know about anybody else, but i’m sticking to the Old Gods to avoid all this nonsense and insanity.
You really are an ungreatful pig! You grew up living on St. Anthony’s property and good will and now you bite the hand that fed you. Way to go. I hope you are proud of yourself, because everyone you respect who used to no longer does.
Could you be a little more, um, coherent?
Dear professor Myers,
Just for the record I send you copy of a mail sent by me on July 22nd to president Bruininks:
Dear professor Bruininks,
Your surname indicates that you have your roots in the Netherlands. Permit me, a grumpy old Dutchman, to dig up a story which happened in the Low Countries during the 16th century. As you certainly will know, the Low Countries then formed part of the Habsburg Empire, governed by emperor Charles V. In 1544 his sister, queen Mary of Hungary and regent of the Southern part of the Low Countries (now Belgium), decided to curb the growing influence of Lutheranism in that region. She let the Inquisition prepare a list of more than leading dignitaries, most of them living in the famous university city of Louvain (Flemish Leuven). One of those suspected heretics was Kathelyn Metsys, niece of the wellknown painter Quinten Metsys. Begging not to be tortured, Kathelyn admitted to her interrogators that she was of the opinion that THE BODY OF CHRIST WAS NOT PRESENT IN THE HOST, AND THAT THE SACREMENT WAS NOTHING MORE THAN A COMMEMORATION. This honest and mild statement didn’t save her life. On June 15th she was buried alive to die slowly by suffocation. Most other heretics were either burned at the stake, beheaded or buried alive as well. One famous prisoner got of scot-free: Gerard Mercator, ‘the man who mapped the planet’. He had to spend however seven miserable months in the cold dungeons of a castle near Antwerp but was then, lacking sufficient evidence, set free.
Well, professor Myers must be lucky to live in the present Age, otherwise he would undoubtedly have shared the same fate as the above heretics.
It took several centuries and the Enlightment to bring down the horrific power of Christion religions but I am afraid that conservative sections of present Christianity, be it Roman Catholic or Evangelical, hope to win back ground that was lost after the Middle Ages. It is frightening to see all the, mostly anonymus, hatemail, coming from worshippers of religions that are supposed to preach love and mutual understanding. The same applies for that matter to some mails sent by the other side.
The statement of professor Myers was apparently made in anger. I cannot judge from this side whether this anger was justified or not but I would like to stress the point that freedom of speech should be tolerated to a great extent. I do therefore hope that you will not give in to the suggestion of Mr. Donohue that professor Myers should be expelled from your university.
To conclude I would like to cite some moving lines of a Dutch poet, written during WW2:
Een volk dat voor tirannen zwicht
Verliest meer dan lijf en goed:
Dan dooft het Licht.
Difficult to translate, but I will give it a try:
People yielding to tyrrans’s might
Loose more than life and good:
They put out the Light.
I wish you wisdom.
Michael Brett
Netherlands (born again atheist, 76 years old)
I wish you wisdom
Clearly Professor Myers is in need of attention. This is all a show. What else would cause someone who is greatly educated to write such hateful stuff?
Mark, seriously – next time, do some reading. If you show up on an active thread and say stupid things like this you’re going to get a harsh lesson in what happens to people who enter a discussion without getting the context first.
Mark,
try commenting in threads that are less than a week old if you dare.
Your definition of “hateful” is,something you disagree with and that makes you uncomfortable.Unfortunately,that is not what the term actually means.Grow up.
I was engaged in an interesting discussion about this topic today & would like others’ opinions. The discussion questioned whether or not mistreatment of a religious symbol such as the eucharist cracker is related to mistreatment or burning of a national flag, or destruction of say, the original copy of some historical artifact or document.
I tried to argue that no symbol is worth killing over & unless property rights are infringed, then (almost?) any disrespect of symbols should be tolerated, but the conversation eventually drifted to such questions as whether or not someone should be fined, jailed or whatever for destroying an army veteran’s Medal of Honor, or defiling the war monument to Vietnam vets in Washington or something. Stealing a flag from a capitol building, etc. I imagine these would be fine-able offenses, but in large part due to the expensive nature of the destroyed items. Is the difference entirely that if its just a frackin cracker costing 2 cents or less, then the theft is as permissible as stealing a paper clip? Or is the symbolism heaped upon the object by some enough justification for penalizing the Lord’s kidnapper? Should someone be jailed for stealing a national flag from a public institution? Is the problem there that the theft was from a public, not private, institution, or that the flag is a fairly big ticket item not as easily obtained as a cracker? If we would penalize someone for burning the original US constitution, isn’t it because its a symbol to us? Isn’t that just a simple sheet of old parchment?
My present thoughts on the matter are that stealing/vandalism should be penalized entirely based on the actual cost or rarity/irreplaceableness of the item in question and zero on its symbolism, however strong, to anyone. Somewhat related is the whole kerfuffle about the Danish Mohammad cartoons. There too I think disrespect is not a crime worth punishing, so long as no one is being harmed or having their rights or (expensive) property infringed upon then no problem. But I am still unsure.
I wonder if anyone still reading this has any more well-developed thoughts on the matter?
So Myers, does it make you feel good to be an arrogant douchebag? Were you always a prick, or did you have to work at it?
Professors like you give “enlightened” academics a bad name. By chance, are you a Barack Obama supporter? If so, you’re definatly a classic “enlightened” and “tolerant” liberal.
If you don’t want to believe in anything, that’s your business. If you had a pair, you’d go over to some muslim nation and take a piss on a picture of mohammed. Those people would do more than just bitch about it. I’ll keep you in my prayers, although you probably don’t give a damn.
DJK,
Hmm:
Mis-spelling – CHECK
Racism – CHECK
Ignorance about the course of events – CHECK (Myers desecrated a Koran along with the cracker)
Fatwa envy – CHECK
“I’ll keep you in my prayers” used to mean “Fuck you” – CHECK.
Yes, it’s the 14,714th halfwit Christard to post on this matter, and it has a fuuuulll card! DJK, you win today’s STAR PRIZE – a hearty FUCK OFF AND DIE.
Can we deduce that Professor Myers next “academic” experiment for fame might be to ask a foreign student burn an American flag on video since it’s just a piece of cloth?
Well it is. But my guess is he’d never ask a student, foreign or not, to do it. He’d do it himself just as in this case.
I wonder how this scenario would have played out if a muslim took a ‘wafer’ and then refused to give it back.
All out ‘jihad’ from both sides ?
Allowing the imagination to run riot, one can almost see the news headlines when an airliner is hijacked and flown into the vatican, probably in retaliation for a cartoon drawn by someone of the catholic persuasion.
No wonder aethiests exist. The sane ones in an insane world.
If it’s just a cracker you want so badly, then why does it have to be consecrated? You can buy thousands of regular hosts at any catholic store or probably online too. If it has to be consecrated by a priest, then aren’t you admitting that it is more than just a cracker?
Astute observation, Judith!
No.
If there’s no physical difference, then why does it matter if it had words mumbled over it or not?
Dear mister Myers,
It’s sad that you can’t respect people beliefs. If this really makes you happy: I will pray for you. I hope that you will know that there is something more than just hatred: Love. You don’t have to believe in God, but can’t you just respect the Catholic (or others) faith? I can respect people (Chirstians, Jews, Muslims, Boedhists, ‘atheists), why can’t you? However, making fun with hatred does not make happy, making fun with Love does! So, please, can’t you just try to respect the things people believe? Because I think dying in Love is even better than living in hatred. So please, let us put down the weapons of hatred and put on a shield of Love, as Mother Teresa said. You are hurting people, you know. I don’t thinkg that is the thing you want to live for! However: God loves you and will forgive you, at least that’s my faith. And I know my faith is impossible and stupid in your eyes.. But it brings me luck and I cán believe in it, also when you think it’s impossible. I am asking you for the very last time: please, respect people beliefs and testify to Love, brother.
Your brother, a Catholic
Make happy! Teach children that they’re born sinful, and that every natural urge they have to give and receive pleasure is evil! Deny women control over their own bodies! Prevent people from protecting themselves from AIDS! Sign concordats with torturing dictatorships! Protect pedophiles! Love!
Fuck off, Sjefke.
Sjefke, Your concern is noted and rejected. Please pray elsewhere to your imaginary god. You are entitled to your beliefs, but if your beliefs are silly to us we can mock them, as did happen. Otherwise, your church has to show the same respect it demands to every other religion out there, which it doesn’t. It it can’t lead by proper example, it’s time for it and its members to shut up.
Indeed. From my vantage point, there is absolutely no way that you can be part of the cesspool of corruption that is the catholic church and, at the same time, claim that you are doing things out of “love”. If the church loves something, it is the power it has over the lives of the deluded, and the political leverage it can obtain through it.
So, you are being either disingenuous or a smug hypocrite.
I am so sorry for you all.. Often, people who don’t know the Church charges the Church with a lot of things. I know and confess that the Church made mistakes in history, and mayby still make mistakes in some people eyes. The sexual abuse in the Church makes me very sad, more than sad. This also torments the Church. People who works in the name of the Church and has to spread the message of Love, become servants of the evil. And that’s really a pity; it’s a shame. Put can you blame whole the Catholic communion and whole the Catholic Church for that sins?
I am wondering, can you judge without really knowing why the Church is teaching some things? Besides, I will recommend to, first of all, really know whát the Church is teaching. But I’m afraid you will not bother. My Church shows respect for other faiths or other people, al least the Church I know, and the Church I really live in. And the blame that the Church is a ‘cesspool of corruption’…?
However, my friends loves me and respects me, and I love and respect them, unesteemed to the fact if they are Catholic, Protestant, Atheist, Jews; whatever. They don’t blame me or my faith for things that aren’t correct; they just love me and respects my faith. Well, you may think what you want to, but why should you think things that aren’t correct and where you didn’t really research and thinked about?
Whatever will be, I am proud to be Catholic and it gives me luck, the luck I am searching for. I really hope you receive the same luck to be as you are now. I can feel, see, touch the Love of the Church and see the wonderful works people are doing with power of their faith (whatever their faith is), and that makes me really happy. And I really don’t know what is wrong about that… Think what you want to think, but it is never wrong to research and to respect people, just like they are, although they believes things you can’t prove or can see. Let them just enjoy their faith. And let us testify TOGETHER to Love.
With kind regards.
My friend was from Brazil, and used to taking the wafer in her hand, which is more hygenic, than in the mouth, since obviously the priest’s hands are going to come in contact with the oral mucosa of many people during the procedure. But everyone else at St. Peter’s Church in Manhattan was taking it on the tongue. Anyway, as my friend was leaving the church she was stopped by two very authoritative people. They started intoning with her, and she did not understand what was happening. Then my other friend, an American, stepped in and explained that she had taken it in her hand, but had then eaten it.
When we got out on the steps, he explained it to me, as I had understood nothing — The two people were afraid that my friend was stealing a piece of Christ’s body, to take home with her!! Then everyone started laughing.
Well I think he should first take a shit on Torah and stick the rest of the pages into his body cavity. We than have to wait for 2 or 3 days, if they still remain “intact” inside his body, we will than have to remove his “Ovaries” to see if he is da man!!!
Ovaries and man eh???
So I just got an email from my university about this which is the craziest thing I have seen; so my apologies for not paying attention to the recent “wafer” news.
Does anyone else realize that a priest is just a person like you and me and he can’t have any “special powers”, so the wafer is just that….a wafer. He is no more special than the rest of us and if you have not noticed I rarely see any nuns around anymore. The Catholic church seems to like to hide its’ women from the rest of the world…doesn’t that bother the female gender at all or are you happy sitting in pews for the rest of your life and paying homage to a wafer and a “non-sexual (yea right) man.
And how are we comparing a flippin wafer to hate crimes, abuse, kidnapping, and racism all together. Those are actual important issues that need to be discussed and understood…this is just another main stream media story since the media is owned by so many powerful rich white men who don’t want to tell you what is really going on in the world around us!
It’s just a Towel! Football coach re-uses Myers unpersuasive “just a cracker” argument….
In the closing seconds of the game, at least four Titans — Keith Bulluck, Jevon Kearse, Bo Scaife and LenDale White — stomped on one of the yellow towels that Pittsburgh fans swing over their heads during games and is revered cloth throughout Steelers nation. Kearse also was seen pretending to blow his nose on a Terrible Towel.
Titans Coach Jeff Fisher said on Monday he did not become aware of the stomping until later. He said his players don’t understand the significance of the Terrible Towel to Steelers fans, and their actions were “not a shot at the organization.”
“This is just a couple of guys playing around with a towel,” Fisher said.
http://tennessean.com/article/20081223/SPORTS01/812230340
“…treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web. I shall do so joyfully and with laughter in my heart.”
I can understand where good men can disagree but to deliberately attack what you know to be held as sacred by a group of people whose only fault is that they disagree with your world view is disgusting. I don’t believe a word of the Koran but would never dream of desecrating it for sheer amusement or to make some silly point. Your actions can only be seen as a mean-spirited gesture meant to intimidate Catholic Christians. Then you have the smug audacity to go to “lectures” and profess civility in the discussion of New Atheism. Your arrogance is astounding.
Oh, fuck you Casey, and the horse you rode in on, this thread has been dead for months.
Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,
And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout;
But there is no joy in Mudville – mighty Casey has struck out.
I know this thread is dead, but I just found it.
When I was a kid I once threw up after church. Since I had taken communion, the priest had to come scrape up the vomit and burn it. I got in big, big trouble because you aren’t supposed to take communion if you are going to throw up. Even though I was grounded and going to hell, I still thought it was funny the the priest had to scrape it up.
How are you allowed to continue teaching? If you were to hang in effigy a mannequin made to look like a black person, or urinate on a pile of yarmulke, people would be up in arms and demand your head. Apparently hate acts are okay so long as they are perpetrated against Catholics. I frankly don’t care what your personal beliefs are. But publicly desecrating an object considered sacred by any group, for the sheer purpose of hurting these people, just because you disagree with them… it’s beyond childish. A man so devoid of wisdom and maturity has no place instructing ANYONE.
As an artist, I’m half tempted to ask around if anyone can take by any means necessary photographs from your home of family and loved ones, and any other prized possessions – perhaps your degrees, I’m sure they’re all proudly displayed – and mail them to me so that I can smear feces on them and photograph them in a landfill. :P That would make GREAT symbolic art. “It’s just a cracker”? And are your photographs and degrees are “just paper” to you? It’s like excusing taking someone’s life with “it’s just another person”. I can’t help but wonder what happened to you to cause you to develop such a complete lack of empathy or understanding of anything. It doesn’t take a genius to realize that some people hold some things sacred. Some things which have no meaning or significance to you, no matter how irrational it may seem to you, are valuable to others. If you feel like insulting a cracker, go to the store and buy some Ritz, but leave other people alone. (Cripes, it’s like I’m talking to a child.) I’m all for following your own beliefs, whatever they may be. But when a person PUSHES his beliefs on others by committing a hate act… well, that’s just not cool. You need to face consequences and should publicly apologize.
Anyway, have fun in the afterlife. Don’t forget your marshmallows. ;)
Mark @1203, your indignation is noted with amusement.
You think so?
Go for it.
And remember, nothing is sacred.
What is it with Christians and the delight they take in the eternal torture of others?
marktard @1203
You dumb fuck. Don’t you get it? ITS JUST A CRACKER!!!
Any faeces smearing has already happened to your brain.
Oh god it’s Pete Rooke Junior.
Oh, and by the way, no I’m not Catholic as I’m sure you would conclude. I’m just an artist and psychologist who -long ago- grew fed up with pseudo-intellectual professors who have no actual concept of a world outside of their own, and their sycophantic followers (evidenced above, after my prior post). I have little tolerance for people who refuse to exercise enough empathy to care about anyone beyond themselves. It seems you have to shock these fools out of their narcissism before they begin to realize there are more people in the world, and that they are all entitled to their beliefs. You sir, despite your hyper-inflated ego, are no better than a Nazi thug, a cross-burning clansman, or the aggressive church-goer who calls you a hellbent sinner if you’ve never read a page of the Bible. Welcome to the land of “You Can All Go To Hell”. :)
“Nothing is sacred.”
Such an ignorant phrase, really, if you think about it from a broad point of view. A valueless man is an isolated, friendless, solitary soul. After all, why waste time with anyone who finds no worth in another?
You don’t have to be. You’re just another in a long line of religiots and similar retards who fails to read and comprehend things properly before commenting.
Your posts are mildly amusing to those of us in the extreme paying-attention-and-thinking minority because the content is so predictably already covered and pre-refuted by the stuff you haven’t read. You don’t get it and, since you apparently prefer your state of arrogant ignorance, you possibly never will.
Oh look, someone doesn’t know what “sacred” means.
This psychologist seems to suffer from anger management issues.
Peter McKellar:
And you’re just a cluster of atomic particles which somehow managed a thought. How would people close to you feel if you were shanked with a large nail and tossed in a dumpster? I assume they would say, “Eh, he (assuming you’re a ‘he’) was never more to us than biological matter anyway.”
My point is people place values on things which may make no sense to others. It bothers you? Fine. You have a right to believe whatever you’d like. But NOBODY has a right to tell others what to believe. If you don’t want to take the time to understand why a group of people consider something important which you see as valueless, then you’re just simply ignorant. End of line.
Atheism makes me laugh; it’s the ultimate self-contradiction. It’s a religion based around a hatred of religion.
As for myself, I’m more Agnostic. I don’t honestly believe anyone can know anything about the world outside of the physical one we live in. Science shows that there’s more to reality than what we can possibly understand. For instance, energy can neither be destroyed nor created, only change form. So what happens to the energy which drives us when we die? Where does it go? Personally, I feel most religious dogma and ritual are pointless and silly. But I RESPECT a person’s right to find comfort in it. People who can’t even summon up enough humanity to show some common respect seriously grind my gears.
So what’s next on the agenda? Planning on slaughtering a cow on the steps of a Hindu temple? Maybe dumping a few watermelons and buckets of KFC in front of a primarily African American Baptist church? Face it, Myers. You’re just a bigot. Nothing more.
Mark,
1. How so?
2. You don’t see value in anything outside religion?
You poor chap. I feel for you.
I think you fail to understand the term sacred.
BTW, I’m mildly amused by your claim @1208 that you “have have little tolerance for people who refuse to exercise enough empathy to care about anyone beyond themselves”.
Given the rest of that comment, and the epithets you use (pseudo-intellectual professors, sycophantic followers, narcissistic fools, hyper-inflated ego, no better than a Nazi thug, a cross-burning clansman), you’re either a world-class hypocrite, or you have little tolerance for yourself.
Heh.
Carry on, then.
Mentally ill fundie babbled @ 1213:
Wow,I think we have a live one !!
“religiot”
Funny, but that word suits you and most of the fools I’m reading on here perfectly, not to mention the almighty professor at whose feet you grovel.
Not just a live one; one who believes so strongly that “NOBODY has a right to tell others what to believe”, that he’s willing to come here and tell everyone what to believe.
Anyway, he’s not very original. We have the standard sociopathy (he thinks that if people are made of matter then it’s OK to kill without consequence) and the standard illogic (he thinks atheism is a religion; file under “my hair colour is bald, my car is no car, my favourite TV channel is “off”).
Mark:
Sigh. Yeah, and not collecting stamps is a hobby, baldness is a hair colour, etc etc.
So, you respect a person’s right to infibulate children? To burn witches? To stone people to death? To punish someone who doesn’t acquiesce to ritual beliefs?
Nasty.
Okay, since some of you on here seem to think the dictionary in your head is the only one you need:
“sacred”: (adj) regarded with a feeling or attitude of deep respect
If you have no respect toward anything or anyone, what do you have? Nothing but an empty, meaningless life, spent alone or only with those who possess deep feelings of worthlessness.
Anyway, I don’t know why I’m bothering even trying to educate any of you on the concepts of respect and empathy. You’re most likely all adults. Your minds are no longer plastic. There’s a better chance that one of you will be struck by lightning than that one of you will walk away from a conversation having learned anything. You’re all here basically to pat each others’ backs and try to feel good about trying to make others feel bad, while worshiping at the feet of the would-be-wise professor. In fact… oh, man, I’m so sorry… I probably walked in on your services. Sorry. Sorry. Go back to bowing, scraping, and eating each others’ crackers. :P
Lovely. Yet another moron who equates a cheap disposable piece of baked wheat to a living human being.
And yet here you are, you arrogant hypocrite, telling us exactly what to believe. Rules for everyone else, but not for you?
Back at you: You didn’t take the time to understand the context. The important thing that you see as valueless is someone’s life and career. You are pathetically ignorant, indeed, by your own standards.
Given your obvious idiocy, I doubt you either know or understand what you just wrote.
Then you’re an atheist too. You’re just in denial.
Heh. Obviously, you don’t RESPECT anyone. You just smile and hide your contempt… except here, where you let it all spew out.
I suppose it’s just something you need to let out, but maybe you could try primal scream therapy instead?
I have to agree with John M above: Either you’re a moronic hypocrite, or pathetically self-loathing.
Although hey, maybe you’re both!
Do you refrain from eating beef? Do you protest against beef-eating with the same vehemence you do here?
If not… hypocrite again!
Comedy gold,right there.
The psychologist not only has anger management issues,he seems to project a wee bit too.Thats not even talking about the displayed open hate,the logical fallacies,presuppositions.
YAWN indeed.
From wiki: “The word “sacred” descends from the Latin sacrum, which referred to the gods or anything in their power, and to sacer, priest; sanctum, set apart.”
Since there are no gods, nothing is sacred.
“Sacred” has developed a slightly wider sense which is irrelevant here, since we still have words like “valued” or “admirable”, so we can drop it and deal strictly with _real things_ like people rather than imaginary ones like ghosts and gods.
On the subject of brain plasticity, try here:
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/plast.html
“Plasticity, or neuroplasticity, is the lifelong ability of the brain to reorganize neural pathways based on new experiences.”
Lifelong. So “you’re adults your brains are no longer plastic” is yet another catastrophic error.
You can’t educate others in what you don’t really feel yourself.
Good point. You wouldn’t learn even if the lesson came in at a million volts.
As demonstrated by this pathetic failure of comprehension:
Pff. And what, we’re supposed to worship at your feet, Mister-I’m-such-a-RESPECTFUL-Artist-and-Psychologist?
Bah.
Holy shi…! LOL Sorry, I was just leaving but that last post before mine made me laugh so hard, I had to respond. Please, enlighten me: in what religion is “witch burning” ritually performed…? I mean I have studied quite a few but never came across one which actually has a witch burning ceremony. LOL
Before I leave you poor people to your stubborn ignorance, allow me to attempt dispelling another:
“religion”: (n) something one believes in and follows devotedly
You all believe religion is for fools. Congratulations! You’re all religious! Ha!
By the way, there is a considerable difference between belief and knowledge. It seems most people on here think they have knowledge beyond belief. Sadly for these people, it is quite opposite. Believe what you want, but at least educate yourselves a little bit so you don’t all sound so clueless. Godspeed. (And yes, I threw that in just to piss everyone off. lol But if you can still find it funny, whether you disagree with me or not, you’re awesome.)
Mark:
Oh, very insightful.
But you forgot the troll-stomping. That’s fun too.
Bah. You even admit you’re trolling.
Poor show.
—
SIWOTI scratch:
sacred is polysemous, like many words, and has the sense you describe, but since it’s not one of the primary meanings, it needs context to apply it so. Respected or revered are more apposite to your sense.
But sophistry is expected from such as you.
Funny: this thread staggered back from the dead, and all I can hear are the shambling arguments and low, plaintive moan of a mindless creature searching for brainzzzzz…
Gee,that one wasnt much fun.
Just another self-righteous brainwashed troll trying to impose his rules on everyone else while crying “persecution” and “youre so intolerant”.
YAWN.
But he’s an artist.
Are there any people who can make a coherent point about this matter without being a total twat about things?
Actually, no, your brain is no longer plastic upon reaching full maturity. The state of being plastic is quite different from the act of plasticity. An adult can change neural pathways, yes, but it takes extreme effort beyond childhood because, as I said, you are no longer plastic. If you were about to lose everything you hold important if you failed to change, then theoretically you could potentially retrain your brain. But children and young adults are FAR more open to knowledge, suggestion and healing from mental trauma. That’s why I don’t think I could work with adults. The likelihood of ever truly helping them is so much more remote and depressing.
But hey, you looked it up. Good on ya! :)
As for the rest of you, who choose just to pick apart what I say and fail to actually attempt to learn anything, well…. Yeah. Kinda pathetic. But whatever.
The answer is, various religions. Here. Here.
It’s no joke. Do you still respect those beliefs, since they apparently the bring comfort to the perpetrators?
Give this guy his own comedy show.
Mark, just because _your_ brain has fossilised doesn’t mean _mine_ has.
You are permanently stuck in your own contradiction: having claimed that nobody can tell anybody else what to believe, you’re telling everyone here what to believe. The mocking will continue for as long as you are amusingly wrong.
And *boom* goes another irony meter.
You are arrogantly assuming that you have something to teach. As it is, I have learned at least one thing about you.
If you wanted to make a serious, well-argued, and well-itentioned point, then I would suggest that your posts so far have utterly failed to convey it. Bursting into a room, hysterically accusing everybody therein of being bombastic, wrong-minded, idiots is hardly the way to introduce yourself into a conversation, is it?
Okay, I see your context. As in “Nothing is (holy)”… or “Nothing is (touched by God)” or whatever. Yeah. That I can agree with, I suppose. I mean there’s a lot of mystical sh*t in the world. A lot that science cannot yet fully explain away. It can attempt, of course, but the explanations are partial and lacking. (On par with the “world is flat” theory. lol) So I’m always interested to hear of “holy relics” and what not. I mean if anything it makes for fascinating reading and inspiration for writing. For instance I love hearing about all these ancient religions which kept calendars which predicted events far into the future, and they all seem to agree that the world will end on December 21st, 2012. Science agrees that it could be possible as, on that day, there would be an astronomical event which Einstein theorized would shift the Earth’s axis and pretty much kill us all. Interesting stuff. But yeah….
HOWEVER, there ARE people who believe otherwise. You may think they’re all morons who need to be properly educated. I say leave them alone. They aren’t hurting you or anyone else so drop it, keep your beliefs to yourself and leave them alone. I would say the same thing if this were a group of people who agrees it’s okay to tag the house of someone for being an Atheist. Can’t we all just… get along…? (lol Sorry ’bout that. Had to quote Jack Nicholson’s character in Mars Attacks real quick-like.)
(By the way nearly half of what I say is tongue-in-cheek. Some of you who are going off on my posts are really making me laugh.)
Anyway! GOD! I’m trying to leave! Stop responding to me! LOL
Mark is 0.2 on the interest meter, 10.00 on the “seen if all before meter”. I find it fascinating and sad that some people think a quick slash and burn in a dead thread will be of value. Mark, you are not married to Barb are you?
In any case, it has all been said before, usually better. I think we are dealing with a sock puppet of someone previously trashed and/or banned for stupidity, hypocrisy, and self loathing. Sounds like he read some of Peter Rooke’s old posts and decided to recycle them. Strange as it sounds, Peter did it better. If Mark brings up the leprous milkman and miniskirts, I will spit coffee at least a foot in laughter.
Ciao y’all
A LOLing moron is still a moron mate.
You really dont know anything,do you Mark.
Jesus fucking christ. How is it that these people manage to get so far into adulthood with this level of ignorance backing them up. Maybe education isn’t that important.
Let me take a wild guess, Mark–you also think that there are “gaps in the theory” of evolution, right?
*yawn*
Like Rokesmith before you, you also missed New Troll Day. We’ll send you a note when the next one is scheduled.
Oh, and the degrees bit. Yes, in fact they are just pieces of paper (or parchment in many cases). They’re called diplomas (the degree is the title that the diploma symbolizes) and the institution conferring them will replace them if they’re destroyed*. Apparently you’ve never heard of house fires?
*/stolen by a twit.
Okay John, I concede – there are some wacko cults in the world which have actually caused harm to others. (Granted, technically, you can’t call that ritual as I’m sure it’s not like, “Here’s the collection plate. Good. Okay, now, time for our weekly witch burning.” lol Dogma… I suppose… if the “red eyes” thing is like a regular part of whatever religion these people belong to. But I’m nit picking.) So yeah… I will have to clarify then: I respect the beliefs of those who respect others. For instance, there are some individuals within the Catholic religion who I do not respect because they don’t respect those outside of their religion. But I also don’t respect those individuals who make a point of disrespecting an entire religion on the basis of a minority of extremists.
In case you aren’t following, the word today is “respect”. lol
Do you even know how this whole thing started? A student was assaulted and had his life threatened over the cracker. But that hardly matters, actually learning the context of the action would only hinder our outrage so it’s best just to condemn without considering why. After all “love your enemies” was only part of a speech and not one of the laws of Moses…
Holy moley, Mark the Concern Troll™ has learned the sacred spell of Thread Necromancy, with a copious side-helping of Godwin’s Law.
Mark: Nothing is sacred. Please familiarize yourself with the entire story before casting indiscriminate Resurrection spells. Sorry you’re new to the Internets and all, but the entire history is well-documented and saved for posterity.
Mark, what makes you think that you are saying anything that hasn’t been blathered fifty times over in the 9 months since this incident took place? Do you really think coming on here and taking pleasure that we’ll spend eternity burning in hell does anything for the religion that you adhere to? Do you think you are the one who is saying something that has never been said before? Or are you just here to hurl insults and claim moral superiority?
clinteas:
Wow… you just contributed a whole lot of nuthin’. :P
Josh:
Huh… heh… feel proud, you join the ranks with John as someone who actually had something new to teach me. That’s something I’d never actually bothered to look up before, but I’m always glad to be rid of assumptions. Due to the context, I had always just assumed: high school DIPLOMAS, college DEGREES…. Well thanks for the little kernel of knowledge. :) Much appreciated.
But anyway, no, I agree with the theory of evolution. :P Or course no one theory can explain everything. And, as any good student of science knows, theories are made to be disproven. Because, as any good student of science would tell you, the human race doesn’t know everything and probably never will. That’s what I love about the sciences: there’s always something new.
As a free-thinking, imaginative type, however, I could see evolution as just being some great cosmic being’s high school science experiment left forgotten in a closet somewhere. heh :D
Anyway, as for the comment on my statement, all I can say is: temet nosce. :)
Yep.
Like a good evisceration?
There you go…
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=220538&title=jim-cramer-pt.-2&byDate=true
Yawn, Mark, you are a boring ignorant git. We heard everything you had to say during the 30,000+ posts of crackergate. Your opinion is worth nothing more than anyone else, but you keep pretending more insight. Think that one through. You are no smarter than anyone else, perhaps even dumber based upon your posts, so trying to climb on a high horse of superiority is a real laugh. You educate us? HAHAHAHAHAHA. Get real. You have expressed your opinion and it has been rejected.
Mark:
Happy to help. Despite the rabid assertions of many non-regulars, the reason most people spend time in this blog is that there’s pretty much always something to learn in here, no matter who you are.
Stewart on Cramer was a lion circling a wounded Gazelle. Cramer got eaten alive on that show.
Damn, I go read a few other threads and see Mark has posted a blindly revealing response to my post. ;)
yep, that pretty well sums it up. Isn’ts evolution and natural selection amazing?
WTF???? you are equating my murder and my corpse dropped in a dumpster with a fucking lump of pressed bread. You claim to be an educated man. It obviously didn’t stick. As a psychologist (with children no less) I seriously question your ability to counsel on things like morals, right and wrong etc. Maybe you would do well to lurk on this blog for a while and learn the difference – maybe even take something away to add to your life skills.
yawn. been there, done that. Religiots’ sacred crap deserves far worse than the treatment PZ delivered. For 2,000 years fucktard xians have been telling people what to believe, what to do and have murdered tens if not hundreds of millions just to make their narrow, psychotic (but I’m sure empathetic) view the only one tolerated.
roflmao. I guess you think atheists are just there because they hate god? Your statement is so stupid it doesn’t deserve further comment.
believe, believe, believe. Its much easier than thinking, learning and eventually knowing. Believe what you want. When you get bored and want a taste of reality, don’t worry, it will still be there (long after this particular incarnation of an all-powerful tooth fairie is forgotten)
FAIL. There is certainly far more to reality than a SINGLE person can understand. Science however shows that EVERYTHING can ultimately be understood by humanity. Do I understand all the maths of e=mc2? No, but I have a pretty good idea of the implications and could, given the time and a little tutoring, understand this one aspect of science thoroughly. Do you really understand science Mark?
oops, looks like you just answered my last question. I can even answer this one without any help. Here is a hint: can you spell E-N-T-R-O-P-Y?
masturbation provides comfort to billions of people on the planet. Let’s all have a group wank Mark. Or would you find that sort of comfort wrong? How would it rate against say, molesting a child whilst in the care of a clergyman? Burning heretics? Did the last 2,000 years of xian controlled oppression and murder not happen? Are you ignorant or just in denial? Respect? get fucked!
I prefer to have meat slaughtered and inspected in a clean facility and cut up far better than I tend be able to do myself (I think I need to use sharper knives). If you knew shit Mark, you would know that the “sacred cow” term thrown around is bovine excrement. Hindus do not worship cows. The “sacred cow” thing was introduced by Gandhi to increase protein to Indians through dairy products rather than the meat (straight economics). When the cow gets really old it gets slaughtered and eaten. I’m just a couple of months back from India – plenty of beef to eat there, generally cooked and served by hindus.
Do you have any understanding of the difference between racism and the whackjob rants of the pious? You cannot change your colour, but people change religions all the time, some see through it altogether and become atheists. Only someone harbouring racist sentiments would even make the “water melons and buckets of KFC” comment. Physician/psychologist heal thyself!
The only bigotry here is yours Mark. And you Mark, well, you don’t make the “nothing more” category, you are significantly less than than your bigotry
Yes, I’m aware of how it started, Kel. I’m not about to excuse the reprehensible actions of the Catholics in that instance (as I said, some are pretty dense. That’s humanity for you. I could point out the idiots among those posting on here as well, but I’m not here to name names. heh) But at the same time, while I might empathize with someone covered in bee stings, I would still have to say it was pretty dumb to try to nab honey from a hive. I’m sorry but you don’t rub another man’s rhubarb (again with the Jack Nicholson quotes?!) and you don’t mess with what another culture holds highly sacred. Having known some Catholic priests, I can tell you that if you were to simply approach one after the services and ask nicely for one, most would likely be willing to simply hand over one on which they haven’t yet performed their rituals. (Granted, as in all things, I’m sure it would depend on the individual, how you ask, and for what reason you said you intended to use it.) As the kids where I work are taught, some things have natural consequences. Upsetting another to violence is one. That doesn’t make the violence right, of course, but c’mon. You really don’t have to be psychic to foresee people getting upset when they’re violated like that.
Ready for a lame and HIGHLY geeky analogy? Do you think Indiana Jones was wrong for trying to get back the Sankara Stone from Mola Ram? Do you think Mola Ram was a hero for stealing it from the villagers who worshiped it? “It’s just a rock!!” Yeah? Not to those villagers, clearly. (Granted, he also took their kids but that’s beside the point. heh)
Mark, on topic, I draw your attention to this post where PZ is interviewed on Catholic Radio International about the issue.
You might find Wikipedia’s summary of Crackergate informative, too.
Oh man,Im having deja vus,Mark can you please read through the 15000 posts on crackergate,take some notes,then come back and tell us what you learned?
We have heard this shit ad nauseam,we have refuted it a million times,you are very very late to this particular party mate !
Noone was violated except a student at a University in a country with separation of church and state.
Damn SIWOTI…..
Mark, you claimed a few posts back that multiple ancient civilisations predicted the world would end in 2012. You should read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Long_Count_calendar
and understand that you have fallen for the baseless claims of new-age hucksters. Learn some critical thinking skills.
Anyway, have fun in the afterlife. Don’t forget your marshmallows. ;)
Yep, it sure is.
But Peter, you’re just a cluster of atomic particles…. What’s the big deal if someone adds a few more atomic particles to your own (granted, forcefully) and puts it all someplace disrespectful? It’s all just matter right?
These people believe – crazy as it sounds – that that CRACKER is imbued with the essence of their god through the priest’s ritual. Naturally they place some rather high emotional value on it. Desecrating it is a pretty big deal to these people.
(Incidentally, getting a nail poked in ya doesn’t typically kill you. Hurts like hell, but you don’t usually die from it.)
Anyway, don’t bother trying to bring out history books to make all religions, across all time, evil things. That’s just pathetic and SO old. Christians were fed to lions even further back than that, but don’t hear any of them holding a grudge about it. :P
Go back and reread what you wrote. You just made me laugh. You called the professor’s exhibit a wackjob rant of the pious. :D I know what you MEANT to say though, but bigotry toward a people for their race is in no way different from bigotry toward a people for their religion. You face an uphill battle against the majority of the world on that one.
Alright… here’s hoping nobody has anything interesting to respond to since my last post. I really want to leave! :P
Mark, Yawn, your concern is boring. Your posts were boring. Your concern is noted and rejected. Here’s a thought, if nobody can tell you what to believe, why can you tell them what to believe? Do you have a recent signed letter from the imaginary deity of yours giving you permission? If not, then you have nothing but arrogance.
Mark:
Geeky, maybe, for arbitrary values of geekiness. Lame, very.
The Adi Shankara Stone really was magical, in that piece of fiction.
The Eucharistic Host is just a wafer. Not really magical.
And, of course, you’ve previously claimed you’d respect the Kālī Thuggees’ beliefs and rituals, so Indy was being utterly disrespectful to them by virtue of respecting the villagers’ beliefs.
Quite a task, to try to respect mutually incompatible beliefs…
And Hindu’s believe that the cow is sacred, it doesn’t stop me from eating a lovely beef stir-fry that I made.
*sigh* 30,000 posts later and people still think that argument flies!
Hmmm, Mark isn’t engaging on the Mayan calendar issue. Wonder why not? He _loves_ to hear about how the wise ancients knew the world would end soon and Science is totally in agreement with that and wooooooooooo. Come on Mark, explain how the Mayan long count predicts the imminent apocalypse.
I notice Mark is going through the exact same lame arguments that have been rehashed ad nauseum on this subject.
Sorry clinteas, but I really want to leave – I don’t want to scroll back and read THOUSANDS of posts. I just came here to make a statement based on what I’d read, knowing full well the natural consequences (you guys).
You know what’s funny is how this all began. I was trying to think of a name for my puppy and came up with the name Sage. This reminded me of a priest I used to know who had a black lab named Sage, so I tried to find a site where I might be able to look him up and see how he’s been all these years. One of the sites had an article about Myers and it reminded me of half of the dimwitted profs I had to deal with in college. So naturally I had to put him in his place. lol Or attempt. Whatever. Anyway. Odd, isn’t it, how this little lark wound up taking up HOURS of time I’d intended to spend doing far more enjoyable things.
Stephen:
They actually discussed a few different calendars on the show which all pointed to the same date. The Mesoamerican one was the one least discussed because the calendar doesn’t actually predict the world will end on that date… it just happens to end on that date. The rest is speculated. Still interesting stuff though. Never said I bought any of it, just found it a very interesting and enlightening show. It probably brings hope to the depressed people of the world who just wish the world would end. lol
Gee mate,you really are the true article arent you.
So you love being told a load of bollocks about the wise prophecies of the ancients. Yeah, you’re not going to have the best time here, are you?
I think it would probably be best to cut the head of this particular undead thread. I was going to suggest that we destroy the brain, but I think it might be difficult to find…
Mark, the counterarguments to all of your points are already available in this and the related threads. At least, have the manners to read them.
Ha-ha! All of those fucking funny depressed, hopeless people! Sooo funny… We call them mentally hilarious…
Go to bed if you need to Mark, this thread has been open for what 7 months? And that is just the latest on this subject. It will still be open tomorrow.
No, I didn’t. I see where you misinterpreted what I wrote, but the misinterpretation is yours.
You are just refusing to listen to argument. People are far more than “just” matter. At least theists see us as sinners but basically human. As an infidel a muslim would call me halal – one whose blood can be spilt.
It is rapidly emerging that the ONLY moral standpoint that affords full humanity to everyone is atheism. Your strawdog arguments prove my point.
Not all religion has been evil, just the current batch. In previous times religion served some purpose in explaining reality and justifying social norms. We don’t need religion for this any more and perpetuating the ignorance held so dear by religions is now detrimental to humanity.
Go back and read my post. When you can change your skin colour at whim (I would even settle for daily), then I will agree with you, until then – you FAIL. Join us Mark, throw aside that waffle about agnostism and help us change the world for the better – remember, we only have until 21st Decemeber 2012.
roflmao
So you confess to your arrogant ignorance. You incorrectly imagined you were capable of informing people here of something they hadn’t already come across many times before. You were too arrogant and lazy to check. You incorrectly imagined that your ignorant opinion was worth something to anyone much else other than yourself. You’re an all too typical psychobabbler – a waste of space-time.
So despite the incident being 8 months ago and persistent outrage over the matter, you thought you’d actually be able to raise something that no-one else has before? The absurdity of your arrogance. Especially as you delighted in telling us we were going to hell at the same time talking of our absence of humanity. Irony is a dead scene (until a priest says magic words and Catholics eat it)
Kel:
The thing is, you’re not force-feeding your stir-fry to a Hindu or setting up a barbecue out in front of a Hindu temple. The natural consequence to be prepared for: someone angrily coming along and pushing over your grill. Disrespect breeds disrespect. So I have to ask, what exactly did the great professor think he would solve through his juvenile actions? He just wanted to make a statement right? So (now this is really starting to feel like work, except you’re probably not all 13 years old) can you think of a more respectful way he could have made his statement?
And I’m only going to say this once. Anyone else says it again and it will be profoundly ignored. But I’m telling no one what on here what to believe. How anyone is extracting that from what I’ve said is beyond me but it needs to stop. I don’t do that sh*t. I’ve been saying repeatedly you can believe what you want to believe – I don’t give a rat’s @ss, honestly. What I AM doing, however, is telling people who actively and with malicious intent disrespect what others believe where to go. ;) lol
Nerd:
What god are you talking about…?
Fr. Chimp:
I wouldn’t know, I don’t have time to read literally THOUSANDS of posts.
John:
As I’ve repeatedly said, I respect those who respect. Naturally I wouldn’t hold in much esteem a religion which mandates murder, kidnapping, thievery, etc. Now I know someone is going to say, “But priests are child molesters!” As you all well know, priests are human beings. And every once in awhile you run into a human being who is a sick, pathetic piece of sh*t. Does that mean there’s something wrong with the religion? No. It means there’s something wrong with a percentage of humanity. Look hard enough and you’ll find that mess in every stretch of life. Odds are one of those who have posted defending Myers has, at some point, done something completely sick and disgusting like that. Does that mean all Atheists are messed up? No. Hell, you all seem like pretty nice guys. Some a little more ignorant than others. ;) And a few who don’t quite grasp the concept of respect. heh But good enough people.
Anyway, it’s been fun. I’m takin’ off though. I’ve already been on here WAY too long, so don’t feel insulted or slighted if I failed to react to any of your posts. No disrespect intended. :)
I pity the poor souls that have you as their psychologist,Mark.
You do now. Nothing you brought up has not been addressed before and on a large wide scale.
It’s a cracker. We understand you are concerned about it.
We think it’s silly.
rinse, repeat.
Posting something on a private blog is hardly the same as going to a church and doing it in front of the congregation. Your argument is pathetic.
Since PZ didn’t storm the Vatican and impale the Pope’s personal host*, his actions are blameless, per Mark’s own analogy. Coherent thinking skills, not found.
When there is an effort to cover up the fact that a not insignificant percentage of their employees are abusing their parishioners and also keeping the said predators in the positions of power then yes, it does have something to say about the religion.
Oh, quick little addendum:
and I’m sure you’ll all jump in and say, “But see? Priests are just human! They aren’t touched by God or whatever and disproves the religion’s dogmatic belief.” Well that’s up to the individual to work out. I agree: priests are just people. The wafers are just bread. It’s what the field of psychology calls a placebo. Faith is actually a very powerful thing. The brain is VERY good at fooling the body. What I say is: if it works for someone, and it isn’t hurting anyone, leave them alone. There is absolutely NOTHING positive to be gained by messing with other people’s lives maliciously. You believe they’re ignorant. Good for you. If you want to share your faith, go for it. But aggressively attacking others’ beliefs, going out of your way to disrespect their culture… it’s beyond not cool. It’s a sign of mental and emotional instability, actually, and I’ve had to redirect such behavior frequently in my work… with children. C’mon people. Are you not adults? That’s all I had to say. Good “night”.
OM(non existent)G! This thing called Mark has worked with and has access to children? With his attitudes and holier than thou persona? I weep for his, hopefully former, patients.
Shudder
Yes, that was what this was all about… what a maroon
When the religious of the world who do exactly that (attack other peoples’ lifestyles, beliefs, or lack of beliefs, and try to pass legistlation that denies rights to those who don’t believe what they believe) stop doing that, then I might listen to you. Until then: Are you fucking serious? Do you really think we care enough about the faith-based to pay attention to them if they weren’t fucking with us?
Are you going into Christian blogs and making this same arguement?
Im beginning to doubt Mark’s claim that he is a psychologist.
How naive can you be?
Those very beliefs cause unmeasurable harm across the world. The catholic church in particular with their anti-birth control measures alone is worthy of contempt and ridicule.
Two clarifications for the indignant Mark:
1. Sorry, my diplomas and degrees are not on display anywhere. I think they might be stuffed in a closet somewhere, but I’m not even sure of that.
2. I’ve posted photographs of my family on the blog. You’re welcome to dig around and do whatever you want with the pictures. You see, they’re patterns of pixels; I can tell the difference between them and the actual human beings they represent.
Mark wibbled:
You’d have a point. Except that there relision is hurting several someones.
ZOMBIE THREAD!!!!!
Watch your brain!
And your sacrum–especially your sacrum!
Zombie thread is currently listed at #1 Most Active on all of
CrackerScience blogs.Mark,
Im not locked into this thread with you,you are locked in with me.
Gick. That last sentence was meant to say, “Except that religion is hurting other people”. I need to preview.
This is just stupid. If you don’t have time to read, you don’t have time to comment (…on what you should have read). Period. I wish you good-afternoon.
You’ve confused haram and halal. Haram = forbidden, halal = kosher (equivalent).
Mark rationalized:
Mark – has anyone ever suggested that you’re stupid fuckwad?
No?
Blessed be. Miracles do occur!
Mark, All I was doing was pointing out you are an arrogant SOB unless you have a recent signed letter from god giving you special priviledges. Given your response, you are just an arrogant SOB without any special priviledges, who is asking for religion to be granted special priviledges. That won’t happen. Come back when you really understand the golden rule.
What the fuck?
Didn’t you have any basic biology in school? (Well, perhaps not… America… but I digress.) Energy doesn’t float around free, it’s always a property of matter (or other particles like light). You eat — you basically burn the food stepwise, and each step is a chemical reaction which is coupled to the production of ATP (look it up on Wikipedia or something); muscle contraction is a chemical reaction that involves the destruction of ATP. When you stop burning food, your muscles stop contracting, your nerve cells stop pumping ions around, and so on. Very, very, very simple.
Evidently you didn’t even know what energy is. Not just basic biology that’s missing here — basic physics!
(Yeah, OK, the details are not simple at all, and whether “each step” is true depends on how you define “step”. But the basics really are simple.)
Well of course. The decay of organic material releases no energy what so ever.
Mark, did you know that the Human heart beats for a lifetime with no external energy source?
Mark, heal thyself. If you are a psychologist (which, from your abject ignorance so far, is doubtful at best), you should have books on narcissism and projection. Please go read them.
Man, rather than cutting peoples’ heads off in Iraq, Al Qaeda should just cut up some communion wafers. We can use the stupidity of religions to dull their real world harm.
zombie thread LIVES!!!!!!!!
hehehehehehehehehehe