Here’s a much more serious issue than a goddamned cracker: it’s the steady accumulation of military power in religious hands. It’s not overt policy, but we should be worried that there is an increasing association between religiosity and military service — an association between credulity and obscene amounts of physical power. Jeremy Hall is discovering this first-hand.
Hall grew up reading the Bible every night and saying grace at dinner. Then, after his first tour of duty, he met some friends who were atheist and decided to read the Bible again. He read the whole Bible, and had so many unanswered questions, he says, he decided to embrace atheism.
In the army, he says, that cost him dearly.
Hall says he was denied a promotion because of his beliefs, and felt his life was in jeopardy. He says the army assigned him a full-time bodyguard because of threats.
At Thanksgiving, Hall refused to pray with his table and says an officer told him to go sit somewhere else.
Also, after he was nearly killed when his humvee was attacked, he says a fellow soldier asked him, “do you believe in Jesus now?”
Hall says he was ostracized because he didn’t embrace fundamentalist Christianity.
The excuses for denying Hall promotions are familiar:
He also said he missed out on promotions because he is an atheist.
“I was told because I can’t put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn’t make a good leader,” Hall said.
I recall hearing similar sentiments used to justify denying gay soldiers promotions, or even existence in the military. It sounds like our military is staffed with intolerant wimps and losers who cannot cope with the idea prospect the man in the trench next to them might have different interests and ideas, and that the much valued “unit cohesion” of our military is tissue thin and fragile.
Of course the military leadership is in denial (this should also trouble everyone: shouldn’t our military be first and foremost a pragmatic organization that is equipped to cope with reality?).
Religious discrimination is a violation of the First Amendment and is also against military policy. The Pentagon refused to discuss specifics of Hall’s case — citing the litigation. But Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are “relatively rare.” He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.
“If an atheist chose to follow their convictions, absolutely that’s acceptable,” said Carr. “And that’s a point of religious accommodation in department policy, one may hold whatever faith, or may hold no faith.”
R i g h t. You all remember that story about Christian Embassy actively proselytizing? The Christian Right has been pushing its way into the military for decades. The Campus Crusade for Christ has been working hard to indoctrinate new members of the military — you should be horrified at the priest in this video who proudly states that the US Air Force Academy, with their help, turns out “government-paid missionaries” for Christ.
Look around and this conflation of religious (specifically Christian) values and military service is everywhere.
Weinstein [of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation] said he doesn’t buy it and points to a promotional video by a group called Christian Embassy. The video, which shows U.S. generals in uniform, was shot inside the Pentagon. The generals were subsequently reprimanded.
Another group, the Officers’ Christian Fellowship, has representatives on nearly all military bases worldwide. Its vision, which is spelled out on the organization’s Web site, reads, “A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform empowered by the Holy Spirit.”
Now the government has no right to tell its soldiers that they may not believe whatever they want; we can’t disallow religion among soldiers. But there is a huge difference between that and actively promoting religious belief in the military, which is what they are doing by allowing these lying priests free access to soldiers.
I’ve been reading a book called Constantine’s Sword: The Church and the Jews — A History(amzn/b&n/abe/pwll) by James Carroll (truth be told, it’s a very bad book, infuriatingly written with much self-indulgence and repetitive, pointless emphasis by the author on his deep Catholic indoctrination, which means he is blind to a lot of the big picture — but he doles out enough interesting ideas to keep me going, so far). It makes the complementary point that this isn’t just bad for the culture, but it’s bad for the religion — that many of the worst excesses of historical discrimination and oppression are the product of not just religion alone, but that dangerous combination of religion coupled to the machinery of the state. Look here, now, in America…it’s happening to us.
Wow, one night a week set aside for religious
indoctrinationeducation at the air force academy.//”I was told because I can’t put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn’t make a good leader,” Hall said.//
Yeah,Im not surprised they would mistake atheism for a belief,and one that cant be trusted for that !
I am an Army Trumpet player. Here is how I got to a commitment several days ago:
Turn left on to Barnes Ave., pass Good Sheapard Chapel on the left. Continue down Barnes past the Religious Support Office. Continue on Barnes past the Friendship Chapel. Barnes deadends on 19th Street. Turn Left on 19th Street to the Gordon Club. Park in the Gordon Club Parking lot and perform with four other soldiers for the Post Prayer Breakfast. (all funded with your tax dollars).
I saw this this morning. As horrified as I am, I can’t say that I’m very surprised. I’ve known about this sort of thing for a while now. I would recommend joining the Freedom From Religion Foundation (sorry, I’ll have to find the link) to anyone who wants to help fight this sort of discrimination.
I hate to say it, but as long as you have all volunteer armed forces, this is going to increase due to the selective nature of who chooses to joined the armed services. So the obvious solution…. bring back the draft.
It is scary. And, the fact that there are frothy-mouthed little Christians willing to defend this coup, is even scarier, and I suppose we’re only a few steps away from the philosophy of “Convert or Die.”
Man… It scares me shitless to consider an armed and dangerous army whose minds are tortured and polluted by the ubiquitous Christian persecution complex. Add to that the fact that their cult believes that in in death they are rewarded with
72 virginseternal luxury, it’s even more terrifying.I just hope that innocent people aren’t harmed when these godly bastards start their mad and holy killing sprees.
Good point. Where else can a belligerent home schooled evangelist find employment.
Quidam said:
I hear the The White House is quite keen on them just now ;-)
That’s… depressing. Is there some way to contribute to Hall’s legal team or something? Some website up where we can show moral support? That video is disgusting and terrifying, and it makes me want to crawl back into bed and wake up in 500 years, with the hope that civilization will have properly matured by then. Of course, with Jesus Christ as “the issue” for our military, it will probably be even worse by then…
Whaddya expect? The military’s always wanted access to secret weapons. And what better than having an omniscient, omnipotent, magic being on side? It’s invisible as well. And with a history of promoting & enabling genocide, too. Jesus Feckin’ Christ!
Sounds like the prelude to a new round of Crusades.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
I’m seriously not surprised. In fact, I’d be surprised if you told me that there was no discrimination in the US army.
Still sucks to hear the truth though… But I expected it.
We are in rare agreement. Clever are we Baptists–for introducing into western civilization the notion of separation of church and state.
Complaints are rare because no one wants to be ostracized for speaking out. I was in and it was like that 10 years ago, before the nutjobs became more visible.
Richard Harris said:
If we’re talking about the biblical god then might I suggest that an omnipotent, magic being with a history of promoting & enabling genocide, but without the history of changing sides at catastrophically inconvenient moments might be preferable.
Anyone got one going spare?
Quidam said-
“Where else can a belligerent home schooled evangelist find employment.”
It seems to me that a fair percentage of them end up as youth pastors.
@#5:
I think it’s a deeper cultural thing than the all volunteer military, although I think the draft would do something to keep this in check.
I served in an all volunteer military (Air Force) twenty-odd years ago, and this kind of thing (threats against non-believers) was unheard of. I even had a fundamentalist boss who, despite being a terrible boss, never brought his religion into the shop. Religion was a private, separate affair.
The problem, I think, is that, starting in the Reagan years, the fundies have become increasingly politicized and as a result, right wing politics has been increasingly influenced by the fundamentalists. This has naturally leaked into the politics of the military, making such things possible.
That’s just my impression, and I could be wrong. I was in the Air Force, and that is (or was) a lot more liberal than the other branches.
Does anyone know of any studies of this? Has there been a real shift in the military, or is it my imagination?
You’re right. This is much more serious than a cracker.
The Military Religious Freedom Foundation (http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/) has been doing exceptionally good work, against very long odds, in these cases. They’re definitely a cause worth opening the pocketbook for.
There have been reoccurring rumors that the fundies want to infiltrate the military and especially the Air Force to gain access to our nuclear weapons.
Nukes are the ultimate tool for converting people. They are either xians or vaporized. Besides which, many fundies think god needs help with the apocalypse seeing as how he is only the omnipotent creator of the universe.
Whether these are just ghost stories or have any factual basis, who knows? But look at Jonestown Guiana, the World Trade center, the Inquisition, the Salem witch hunts, or Iraq and tell me that there is something fanatics won’t do.
You “clever Baptists” only hold to the principle of separation of church and state when you don’t have political power.
It’s the ultimate in stealth–utterly invisible, undetectable, and with no effects whatsoever.
True, the lack of effectiveness is a drawback, but that’s what’s so clever about it–having no effects, no one will ever be able to detect it.
Anyway, that’s what ID counts on, only in reverse. No predictable effects means that it can’t be found not to exist.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
As a cadet in the Officers Training Corps, part of the British Army, I can attest that there is nothing like this in the UK armed forces. I don’t even know the religious beliefs of most of the personnel I serve with, except my close friends. It isn’t something that often comes up in conversation, and I’ve certainly never encountered a superior officer attempting to convert people.
In fairness, you could say that of any organized religion.
(.)(.)
As #12 said…
It’s not terribly surprising, but it is terrible.
I imagine that religion has historicaly been a good tool for creating the “unit cohesion” that is so important for an efficient military. I guess we can hope that the military’s social evolution follows a course that allows for the embracing of alternitave or lack of spirituality. The sooner the better.
This post is disturbing, but it not new.
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/EvangelicalsForceInMilitaryChaplainCorps.html
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/InfiltratingTheUSMilitaryGenBoykinsWarriors.html
These reports show how the chaplain corp has had vastly decreasing participation by Roman Catholic and mainline Protestent chaplains, and has become a stronghold of evangelicals who actively pursue conversion.
It is at times like these that I feel as though I am powerless to do anything. My congressman is a 16 year incumbent who was a deacon and Sunday school teacher in his local Baptist church, and is so entrenched that he has run unopposed in 4 of the last 5 elections. There is nothing I can do or say that would get him, or a similar thinker, out of office.
That said, something needs to be done so the US can survive the next few decades without these knuckleheads bringing down their own man-made rapture upon us.
I feel the need to bring up my own exprience in defense of the US military every time this comes up, though it seems to ring more and more hollow the more of these things I hear about. I was in the US Navy for five years, only got out recently, and was never one time pressured or discriminted against because of my very vocal atheism.
Still, for those out there who are getting shit, I recommend the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (MAAF) Click on my name for the link.
Can you imagine the reaction if, say, a bunch of revolutionary Marxists tried that?
That said, something needs to be done so the US can survive the next few decades without these knuckleheads bringing down their own man-made rapture upon us. – Benjamin Franklin
If by “man-made rapture” you mean a nuclear war, or catastrophic climate change, or similar – what about the rest of us? Don’t we count?
We are officially in the Counter-Enlightenment.
Nice booby, woot.
I should have checked my own link. It appears that Jeremy Hall himself is in the MAAF.
I think this is all worse, even, than we imagine.
Think about this: People who are Christians FIRST don’t have a President, they have a King. They don’t have a Constitution, they have a Bible. In place of a Bill of Rights, they have Ten Commandments.
Prejudice, against everyone who isn’t their kind of believer, is institutionalized (as we’re seeing in this case).
Taking precedence over any issue of freedom or patriotism or obedience to proper chain of command is their primary allegiance to their god and church (to get the real picture, imagine someone like James Dobson or Pat Robertson as de facto Commander in Chief of the United States Army).
These people don’t really believe in democracy.
In their heads, at least, the U.S. government and our cherished models of democracy and equality have already been overthrown.
If they’ve got the weapons and the will, everything else is just a matter of time.
Prelude? What do you think the War on Terror™ is?
Mikey Weinstein for Prez!
That is so fucking backwards it’s not even funny.
I’ve never understood why an all-powerful being like this Christian god, who allegedly can create and destroy whole universes at will, needs the help of mere humans to accomplish the simple task of defeating a small army composed of other mere humans.
I wonder how many of the American fundies who cite Mere Christianity have read something else CS Lewis wrote?
‘Hence a man’s reaction to monarchy is a kind of test. Monarchy can easily be ‘debunked;’ but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach – men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.’
You can’t be a Christian unless you’re the subject of a monarch. This was always the traditional view – the King was merely part of the Great Chain of Being that had God at the top of it. Bear that in mind next time you hear some theotard claim that the founding fathers meant this to be a Christian nation. The ‘tyranny’ they were shaking off was God, not just George III.
Of course, to steal the best line from Crimson Tide, the US Army is there to protect democracy, not to practice it.
When I was in the Army, I got sidelong glances and such when people saw my dog tags, but luckily nothing like Hall had to go through.
This has long concerned me, for obvious reasons and I addressed it, in my small satirical way, a while back on my blog: http://deusexeverriculum.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/dear-us-joint-chiefs-of-staff/
As a bit of lagniappe, Gawd has also spoken out about the cracker issue: http://deusexeverriculum.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/dear-pontifex-maximus/
These kind of stories are regularly in the news, which is probably a good thing as it may mean that people are finding the courage to speak out.
There is certainly plenty of evidence that the US military is becoming a fundamentalist training camp, which is more than a little bit scary.
I don’t know if anyone has taken a peek at the comments on the CNN blog, but there are the usual dullards there saying that the US is a Christian country, founded on Christian principles, etc, etc. One person even suggested that it was a restriction of religious freedoms to not allow military personnel to proselytize!
One thing that I did find interesting is that there are a number of people claiming that, not only are atheists, homosexuals, and women discriminated against, but Liberals, as well. If that is the case, it only adds weight to the charge that the military is slowly becoming dominated by conservative Christianity.
Think about this: People who are Christians FIRST don’t have a President, they have a King.
Yep. And I’ve met people of whom I’d say they were Christians first and human beings second (or maybe somewhere down the line). To them, you were either Christian, or you were subhuman.
Now imagine those kind of people with nuclear weapons, and I think you’ve gone a long way toward explaining why some of them (Bush the Younger included, I think) are so willing and eager to use them. I mean, after all, using them would get those folks what they want, and it wouldn’t be like they were actually killing real people or anything.
Add in the sort of American Exceptionalism that dictates that Americans are entitled to do whatever they want to get whatever they want, and the whole world is (observably) in a heap of trouble.
Interesting to hear your thoughts on the book, which I haven’t read. The annoying qualities of the book that you describe are far less prevalent in the film
http://constantinessword.com/
though not entirely nonexistent. It’s hard to explain why, but the focus on Carroll’s personal history in the film is generally a positive. I suspected after seeing it that I would have a response to the book that is similar to yours, though.
So boot camp is now jesus camp?
This is all the more disturbing when you consider how far we’ve come: imagine how Thomas Paine would be treated if he was serving TODAY?
Of course, it’s not surprising that brain-washers would seek out converts in an organization that demands unquestioning obedience as an operational standard.
If there was a class-action suit by tax-payers to prevent this sort of violation of the 1st Amendment (spending our $ on religious evangelization), I’d be on-board in a heart-beat.
It becomes clear what it it, once you spell it the way our pResident pronounces it: War on Terra.
things seem to have really changed since the mid-80’s when I was in the US Army. I was (am, always have been as long as I can remember) atheist, had “Atheist” on my dog tags, everyone knew I was atheist and I never had a problem and this was when Reagan and Bush I were presidents. Guess I was lucky.
The fundies have been infiltrating the upper ranks of major US police forces. The upward bound can advance their careers with college degrees and advanced degrees — from bible colleges. A masters in bible-babble counts the same as a masters in physics.
And, on the taxpayers dime, in uniform and on the clock, there’s a whole lot of praying going on.
Guess what happens to those who do not submit.
In the UK back in the 80’s there was an assistant Chief Constable of the Greater Manchester Police who went public claiming he was working for Jesus.
He was retired very quickly.
This is just too fucked up.
Here’s a frightening thought. The people who so badly want The Rapture to come in their own lifetime now have their hands on the nuclear weaponry to destroy the world in an effort to help things along and bring on the End Times.
These people would hate the prospect of dying before The Rapture comes. You know the saying, ‘You make your luck’? Well, they’ve heard it too.
I bet Margaret Atwood is glad she is Canadian, one step away from her prophecy coming true. But fear if your religion is not The Real Version, there is no squabble so vicious as an internecine one. Look to the bloodbath that was your Civil War if you doubt it.
The real worry of course is that the UK’s nukes are not independent, we need you guys to target them for us. Though we do still have command of the triggers. But wouldn’t it be oh so convenient if it was us plucky Brits who just happened to have the first little nuclear ‘accident’?
I have a nephew over there who is atheist. I have been wanting time to talk with him about his experiences, and whether he feels he is being singled out because he’s out with it (it’s written on his dogtags).
He very much wants to pursue public office, but even with a stellar military record and possible intelligence experience, he’d still have a hard time being elected. So very sad.
You
Why are none of my fellow freethinkers upset with this quote:
This just show the ignorance of theists, christians in particular. Athiests/Freethinkers are rarely convinced of the non-existance of god. Many including myself fall into the godless category by default because of the following reasons in order of importance.
1. Lack of evidence for supernatural
2. Repeated dishonesty of theists(See: Lying for jesus, logical fallacies, strawman arguments.
3. The problems religion causes in our world
4. The type of charlatans that are major figures in the believing world(Robertson,Baker, Graham, Mother Teresa, Falwell, and all popes of history.)
If there was any supporting evidence for the supernatural it would be Atheists with the delusion. Honest atheists would automatically convert their thinking.
I’ve heard theologians lately say things like the existence of God isn’t a scientific question.
But if there were any evidence the preachers of the world would hold it up high and there would only be one religion.
You can’t tell me that religious people wouldn’t accept evidence in support of their views just as easily as they discard evidence to maintain their delusion.
We freehinkers/atheists don’t have convictions, and there is nothing to follow. The only thing that unites us is our shared disbelief. That quote from the ARMY spokesman is just another in the whole line of “Atheism is a religion” bullshit that we hear over and over. It is offensive to me.
“I have a nephew over there who is atheist.” – Michael
(my emphasis)
Interesting phrase. Where is “over there”?
Not new to me. I was in the Navy in the early eighties. On one occasion, a piece of classified equipment my division was responsible for was missing. They brought in the NIS to question us. When my turn came, the inquisitor asked one or two questions (“do you kn ow where it is?) then spent two hours ranting and foaming about how I should immediately embrace whatever ultrafundie cult he was owned by. I finally managed to bring the sermon to an end by telling him that if I believed a word of his nonsense, my only ethical choice would be satanism. Some months later, the Co of my division was on a fitness kick, decided I was too pudgy, and tried to force me to join some AA type scam to “pray the weight away”. Fat, apparently, was the result of demonic influence, not the fact that the semiedible stuff in the galley was generally swimming in grease. Not doing so eventually got me discharged.
Also, after he was nearly killed when his humvee was attacked, he says a fellow soldier asked him, “do you believe in Jesus now?”
Why, did Jesus fire the RPG?
When I was on active Navy duty, we didn’t have that many god botherers about. I was surprised by that. Right after Adm. Borda blew his brains out, we were ordered to have a “moment of scilence” right after a chaplin spoke, one of the other guys their said “hey, they can’t make me do that. They’re enforcing religion!”
Of course, that was when Clinton was Pres.
“Whether these are just ghost stories or have any factual basis, who knows? But look at Jonestown Guiana, the World Trade center, the Inquisition, the Salem witch hunts, or Iraq and tell me that there is something fanatics won’t do.”
Posted by: raven | July 9, 2008 11:27 AM
Not to mention Mao, Stalin and the last 2 North Korean dictators.
When I was in the Army and stationed in Korea, we had to fill out forms with our religion on them. If I had been in another sort of unit, that could have caused me a lot of problems. Everyone I worked with knew I was an atheist, including my chain of command, yet that did not prevent me from getting promoted.
In the US, things were very different. I was shocked the first time the unit commander asked the chaplain to lead the entire brigade in prayer. It seemed that every other email I received (from Army email addresses) had some religious message tacked on to the end, and I got weekly or semi-weekly “faith” messages from the chaplain. There were other examples as well. That unit was so thoroughly politicized that I can easily imagine religion being used to deny someone a promotion.
Part of this problem is at the unit-level, but it seems far more widespread in units stationed in the US. The Eighth Army (in Korea) seemed much more open-minded; the Army in the US seems to exist to serve political ends.
These struck me as particularly scary:
Bussey’s teachings from the “God’s Basic Training” Bible study guide he authored says US troops have “two primary responsibilities”: “to praise those who do right” and “to punish those who do evil – “God’s servant, an angel of wrath.”
Uh, the only primary responsibility of the troops is to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic… bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and …obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.”
Nothing about smiting heathens.
“Young recruits are under great pressure as they enter the military at their initial training gateways,” the group has stated on its web site. “The demands of drill instructors push recruits and new cadets to the edge. This is why they are most open to the ‘good news.’
This is classic cult “brainwashing”… break down the ego, and erect something else in its place.
Re Benjamin Franklin@26
These reports show how the chaplain corp has had vastly decreasing participation by Roman Catholic and mainline Protestent chaplains, and has become a stronghold of evangelicals who actively pursue conversion.
This practice of infiltrating churches and chaplaincies and turning them into fundamentalist hotbeds is commonly called “steeplejacking”.
Sorry about the long post, I have two brothers in the army, and a brother-in-law in the air force. This kind of shit really has me in a snit.
Just because no one else has brought this up, yet:
Is anyone else bothered by the face that the scientists, engineers, and other experts that designed and built the military guns, tanks, planes, etc were probably atheists or nonbelievers (or at least not fundies)?
Peter @ #56:
And Jesus saith; “Consider thyself smitten, thou dirty f%cking hippie atheist!”
I can not imagine a worse thing for unit cohesion or moral then religious sectarianism in the military. I would imagine that there are some who are in positions of authority who understand this just as I am sure that there are those members of the armed forces who are at odds with the basic nature with American democratic principles as set forth in The Constitution.
We must not forget that there are mercenary organizations headquartered here in the United States that are not bound by any such principles like Blackwater. The times are very interesting indeed and thinking about these issues disturbs my sleep patterns.
An additional thought
it is my opinion that the primary reason that the Old Soviet Unions failure and defeat in Afghanistan and its subsequent collapse was money and the fact that they could not raise any money in the international credit market.
We are all well aware of our involvement in a very similar situation in the same area. I would say that it is even worse involving not just a poor undeveloped country but an important one to world trade and its important neighbors. The main difference being that we so far have been able to borrow the vast amounts of money needed to pay for the same kind of stupid mistake.
I doubt that we can keep doing that indefinably things just do not go up forever.
dark days ahead? the dark question is how far ahead and how dark?
shit! tell me it is going to be OK
It’s the iron chariots. Don’t you people read the old testament? =P
Jeremy is stationed not far from here, and this has been in the news a few times already. CNN, I think, has carried the story before, and I don’t see any new information in this one. I wonder if they are recycling some stories to keep the controversy alive, as it were.
Also, how do you think the fundie nutjobs would have reacted if after a similar mortar attack, th atheist replied with ‘where’s your jeezus now?’
I disagree, a moment of silence is as secular as it gets. I think that it’s a good thing for people to have a moment of clarity and unity after something really bad happens.
Organized prayer: NO.
Silence: Okay
Unless some psychologist is able to prove to some standard that a moment of silence is objectively harmful then okay speak up i guess.
I get really mad at organizations like American Atheists that combats stupid things like “in god we trust” or “Under god” and other inane targets of ire from a legal angle.
We need to be super tactical at the moment and pick our battles well if we want to win.
That fact is we have churches openly preaching politics from the pulpit. And they keep their tax exempt status. We also have proselytizing in the military. We also have people with their finger on the button that think Nuclear bombs could bring on the greatest thing that will ever happen.
That is what we need to fight.
What kind of dog tags did Randy (#38) have? The big, oversized novelty check kind? The dog tags I had simply said “no r pref” and it was in such small letters that no one else could ever read it unless I was dead or having gay sex with a fellow shipmate. The irony was that, back then, I did have a religious preference. I just didn’t think it was anyone’s fucking business.
I havd the same experience as T.A.C. (#27). The 5 years I was in the U.S. Navy, during the Reagan years, I can’t remember anyone ever mentioning religion at all except to announce when a chapel meeting was starting (Sunday morning). For those of us who didn’t go, which is at least 90%, we sat around and played cards or whatever. Good times!
Walton @22,
Seeing as the British military is okay with Satanists now, I doubt atheists would be an issue for them. ;-)
I thought this was going to be another “Christian/BAD and athiest/GOOD” post by Mr. PZ.
But after reading it, I have to agree with him. There is no good reason the deny a man promotions because of his beliefs. If it was based on that alone, that was clearly wrong. And If you are seeing war mongering “Christians” (and I don’t mean soldiers, I mean the people that are in leadership) be very wary of them. They are making a huge mistake if they are a true Christian. An even bigger mistake if they aren’t, because then they are just plain deluded into thinking they are doing violence in the name of God. Which is never right. God would never command a Christian to murder for the greater good. I don’t care what anyone claims. They are just plain deluded…
Which is very dangerous..
I am worried about that kind of thing as well… And I am a Christian!
uncle frogy @63,
I wish I could tell you it would be okay, but I read Blackwater: The Rise of the World’s Most Powerful Mercenary Army by Jeremy Scahill. Blackwater’s upper management and owners have close ties to the religious right, and BW and its competitors are slowly being given security and policing tasks once done by the military or other federal agencies. After all, this sort of crap in the government-funded military can be taken to court. But in a privately-owned corporation?
Aleph @ #66:
I had the same size tags as everyone else, but from time to time someone would get a close look at them; i.e. at the hospital because I also had an allergy tag.
Far be it for me to disparage the Navy, but I guess if something was smaller than a destroyer, it just didn’t register.
Mostly, no one mentioned religion when I was in either, (joined 4 weeks before invasion of Kuwait – how’s that for timing?), but I remember in basic that Sundays we could go to church or clean the barracks.
@False Prophet
There a difference between satanists and atheists? You need to go home and watch the 700 Club right now.
You’ve obviously never read the Bible, Starbuck.
Guy in video said, “a couple hundred kids talking on cell phones” …
You have children in the military in the U.S.??? :scaredsmiley:
Shhhhh! If we all sneak off to another thread, maybe Starbuck won’t notice…
Jata, that’d be the MRFF.
Also, after he was nearly killed when his humvee was attacked, he says a fellow soldier asked him, “do you believe in Jesus now?”
A friend of mine who fought in the first Gulf War back in the 90s used to witness to other soldiers in the military. Even though some disagreed with him and some others agreed, they didn’t think it was persecution as this particular atheist soldier did. There is a difference between one’s personal belief and the freedom to express that belief, than an organization like the military service promoting a certain type of belief. Also, in a very dangerous job which has many deaths when performed, the thought of dying generally results in people getting more religious. It’s a very common pattern.
So if the atheist soldier thinks he’s going to get respect by his fellow soldiers who are theists by suing the government he is wrong. The two parties can disagree, if he wants to promote atheism to the other soldiers he could and the other way around as well. However, when a job needs to be done, in this case they are in a combat zone and instead of securing the area, they decide to talk about religion, then that would be wrong unless it’s a very extreme circumstance. He would have a case there. But if they are out of the combat zone, deep issues like religion could be brought up.
Saw your webpage Michael. You’re a moron. That is all…
Choosing soldiers based on religious belief seems like a bad idea – knowing what you are doing rather than knowing what your boss wants to hear would seem to be a good idea when you run an army. Lots of weapons plus incompetents holding the keys = very bad things.
At best, if such internal selection techniques continue, the US will get its butt kicked in whatever wars it engages in – Saddam Hussein and Hitler would seem to be two examples of people who confused their egos with actual military knowledge, for which their nations (and lots of other people) paid a heavy price. At worst, the world will get to participate in population control the hard way.
Oh, and there is the pesky First Amendment – making military advancement contingent on religious belief would seem to violate even the weaker “establishment of religion” clause. I know that the current Chief Executive hasn’t much tolerance for his oath of office, but someone else might remember what it’s for.
I may be naive, but I had figured that for most of US history, religious people did not attempt direct control of government. There were good reasons to keep control of religion and government separate – lots of people came to the US because practicing their beliefs would get them imprisoned or killed, and because the people running European governments assumed that their religious beliefs and arrogance constituted absolute truth (which is hard to distinguish from them believing themselves gods). If you think you have absolute truth, and decide that everyone else needs to be like you, you need to read some history to realize what happens because of people like you, or what simply happens to people like you (hint: nothing good, though you may get to find out if your beliefs are true a little sooner than you had planned).
This just in: Choosing soldiers based on sexual orientation is a bad idea, too. As if we didn’t know that already.
Also, nevermind the Lord, we should be more careful about letting the president (any president, that is, not just the current crazy one) get his hands on that sword.
(Hap, none of this is intended as a retort to you, of course; you just gave me a decent place to put these links.)
@j
You’re kidding right? Michael started with the standard “just a theory” argument. But a few paragraph later he ups that by using the term evolution proposal. That’s awesome.
Michael,
Don’t stop there. How about “evolution is just a thought” or “evolution is just a dream”. I know, “evolution is just a noise Darwin once made when he sneezed, and closed minded scientists have been sneezing the same way ever since.”
Nick,
Sorry about that, I wasn’t as clear as I should have been. We all count. The knuckleheads I was referring to can, and might eventually bring down the entire world. I was trying to say is – what can be done in the US to prevent the knuckleheads here from rapturing the world. Another good question would be – what can we, and what should we do to prevent all the knuckleheads in the world from bringing on their own particular flavor of apocolyptic absurdity.
Give these cadets a “dear and fluffy lord” so they don’t realize their troubles.
Yikes.
Hey Michael,
http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/
Michael(#76) wrote:
“, deep issues like religion”
Religion is not a “deep” issue. The sociology and psychology of religion is a fucking deep issue.
Hey, I’m a Christian.
I found myself whistling “Onward Christian Soldiers” as I read this post.
When I was done, I felt ashamed of some of my fellow believers.
Then I felt afraid.
I don’t like deadly weapons in the hands of people who have that much certainty.
I think Michael of post #76 needs to join up with Bevets from Fark to form the Creationist Voltron…we need a good photoshop of PZ as a cephalopod Ro-Beast :-)
Regarding comment #54, he is currently in between Iraq and Afghanistan, so I prefer a term “over there”. If I say “in country” I sound too much like a Vietnam war movie.
The one thing I keep bringing to the table is a paraphrase of a joke from Richard Jeni: A religious-based war is simply one in which schoolyard bullies kill each other over who has the cooler imaginary friend.
If you take even the most basic, non-deific teaching of Jesus (or whomever came up with the recycled ethics), none of it points to using war to foment your desires for peace and love. Swords into plowshares and whatnot.
When I hear people talk of this war using catchwords like “Crusades,” and “End Times” it truly worries me. A 21st century industrial power is battling a 12th century nomadic tribal culture, and is barely holding ground, mainly because they are willing to die en masse. Happily, and with great vigor. The point according to Patton is to make more of them die for their cause than you do for yours.
The concern is not how things are today or next week. We will eventually leave. It’s just a question of what batshit crazy guy usurps the government over there and makes Saddam look like Raggedy Andy by comparison.
Then you get dickholes like Ahmagonnastartawar shooting off missiles and talking tough, double dog daring us to try and stop them. I swear it’s like I’m in a 10th grade playground filled with world leaders. I agree with an earlier poster…how you can go to those countries and not come back questioning the existence of a God surprises me. I am sure it’s the whole “conversion by mortal danger” phenomenon.
Jim Ramsey,
why would certainty be a problem? – Isn’t christianity all about LOVE? What could be a problem with that??
Posted by: Michael | July 9, 2008 2:31 PM:
That is what we call a generalization, and one made by someone who obviously has no experience with the subject matter. If you’re talking about mature minds and the way they deal with the very real possibility of death, you’re going to have to do a little bit more work explaining that position. Because of the composition of our military, however, the flee into religiosity is actually more of a commentary on the abundance of young, naive minds that joined without first truly considering the fact that it may be the end of them. While some soldiers are genuinely religious, and still others may genuinely convert, if you are scared into religion through the fear of death, then your conversion is just as specious as a coerced confession. As an atheist, I think if you are going to jump into something like religious belief, you should do so upon your own accord and through your own deliberations – not because you were frightened into it by the prospect of death.
You’re an idiot. He is suing the government because they violated his civil rights, not because he is looking for some brownie points from his peers. If you’d actually read the article and could accurately comprehend the situation, you’d know that.
Again, idiot… Military regulations prohibit proselytizing and religious advocacy at any time. Whether or not you are in combat has absolutely no bearing on the permissibility of pushing your religion on others.
Our military is – without a doubt – the most advanced and powerful in the world. That, for me, is reason enough to need to keep it out of the hands of fundamentalists of any religion, especially one so fascinated with the coming of the end of the world.
I had the same experience in basic training as Randy mentioned in #70: I spent all my Sunday mornings cleaning the barracks as I didn’t go to any religious services.
Re #86
you ask _ “…what batshit crazy guy usurps the government over there…?”
Unless I miss my guess, that would be one Muqtada al-Sadr.
The oath someone takes prior to entering the military:
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
There is some controversy over the last sentence which is sometimes considered optional for those being sworn in to the military.
I would think athiests in the military could remind those trying to convert them that they took this oath.
Officers should NOT be proselytizing someone of a different religious or non-religious background as he has sworn to protect that person’s religious liberty. But since when do fundies care about others freedom since they may end up in that fictional you-know-where.
That said, I can remember we had some bible thumpers when I was stationed in Vietnam but this was some time ago.
It is true that the military has gotten more evangelical in nature. There have been complaints by jewish students at the Air Force academy.
Personnel in the military shouldn’t have to become religious in order to obtain promotions, but I am sure it happens. The old military axiom of “you get along by going along” probably still exists.
You can take some comfort in knowing that James Dobson and others of his ilk have been upset recently when the military began allowing Wiccan chaplains!
Maybe PZ can volunteer to be the firat atheist chaplin.
I am sure he can swear but he might have troubles taking the oath!
Benjamin Franklin@81,
Agreed!
All members of the military take an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. These are some of the domestic ones.
FW: “that much certainty” implies that the person who believes has decided that they know exactly what God wants and behaves appropriately. It’s usually hard to distinguish from someone who thinks that they are a god – if they think they know everything and they have lots of force at their disposal, it isn’t hard to start acting a like a god, with unfortunate and well-known consequences.
Lots of people have a hard time with the concept of love, at least as it relates to others, If you think you’re a god (or in close contact with one), it isn’t hard to conclude that loving yourself above all is good and right. What happens to others is of secondary importance. Not good if you are one of the others.
Since Christians have had a lot to fear from other Christians who held power and thought and believed differently (many of the people who colonized America came for that reason), it wouldn’t seem that Mr. Ramsey’s fear is misplaced. That may not say good things about Christianity, but that’s history (though I hope not the future as well).
RE: #86:
My first thought at reading this was a line from a recent Robot Chicken “It’s not even the real Voltron, just that stupid vehicle one”.
I suspect the creationist voltron would also be so inept it wouldn’t be able to figure out how to transform in under an hour, but would insist everything was perfect and the rampaging Ro-Beast was only an illusion put there by Satan.
The oath someone takes prior to entering the military: I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
Kenny, that’s bullshit. You do not have to say “So help me God.” It’s optional. I have taken that oath more than once. God wasn’t involved. Neither was the tooth fairy.
phantomreader42 wrote: All members of the military take an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. These are some of the domestic ones.
As a scientist, I say yes. As an educator, I say yes. And as an American soldier, I say yes.
Some will probably get pissed about this, but aside from one close friend, I don’t talk religion with the guys on my team (except for the conversation I did end up in about the age of the earth with a Major in the unit who is a fundie). They know I’m liberal, and that’s enough to deal with. I need these guys to have my back during operations. End of story.
It’s rather ironic that every thing their supposed prophet Jesus tells them makes absolutely no sense when applied to their lives. So this imaginary figure tells them to love their neighbor, and basically live as pacifists, and what do they do? They take up arms, and hijack some idiotic preindustrial believe in some deity and use it to justify their ignorance, xenophobia, and irrational thinking. Our own military is run by incompetent morons who view these imaginary figures as something to be worshipped, because when one thinks jesus, they automatically think depleted uranium shelled rpgs, M1 Abrams tanks, B2 bombers, etc.
Hap(#94),
yeah, I know. It was a rhetorical question (#87 re #85). Thanks for spelling it out so well.
Hap,
Yes, you caught it exactly. I almost hate to say this because I’ll get shelled, but I think that, among other things, being a Christian means loving inconveniently. That is, not just the cute kids and the sweet old ladies, but the smelly people and especially the ones who just aren’t grateful.
Just after 9/11, I went to my church’s annual Men’s retreat, There were a lot of angry men there. I went around asking if we planned on just setting aside those inconvenient words about loving your enemy and doing good to those who hate you for the duration. Boy, did I get a lot of tap dancing.
Now I know why McCain predicts we will be in Iraq for 100 years. It will take that long to convert the Iraqis from a Muslim theocracy to a Christian theocracy.
I was in Navy intel for 10 years with no problems. Maybe its an Army thing. I did run into a couple bible thumpers (Air Force) at a joint command. Once the humor of their attempt at conversion wore off I pulled rank and told them I’d have their ass on a plate. End of discussion.
Josh, It’s sort of depressing to think that your teammates would let you die (and perhaps themselves) because you didn’t believe as they did. It’s probably more common than I would like, though. If I can’t love someone who doesn’t agree with me but who has put my life in their hands towards a common goal, I don’t see how the concept of my loving anyone else has much meaning.
Mr, Ramsey: I don’t mean to get for you any more criticism or stress. I agreed with you more or less. People are harsh sometimes, but criticism is better than bullets, particularly if the former could help prevent the latter. (Not of you necessarily, but in general).
A good number of years ago, the Mormon captain of a ship I was in said to me: “If I followed the precepts of my faith, there would be no coffee onboard. However, if I did that, within an hour there would be a mutiny and an hour after that I would be relieved of command and probably court-martialed.”
You know, Jim, I agree with you, except on one small but important point. That’s called being human. So hey. Good call. Incoming! Fuck you and your presumptive coopting of love. When will you self-important dipshits get this? Ever? Yes? Well, when? Today? Tomorrow? Next week?
When?
WHEN?
If you don’t ant to be bravely ‘out,’ it’s safer to list yourself as a Unitarian
People tend to look at those in their in-groups differently (and usually worse) than people who are not in them, and that hasn’t shown any signs of going away soon. It seems more characteristic of humanity that we love very few people than that we love everyone – we would like to love everyone, and sometimes we hope to do better, and succeed, while other times we want to others to conform to our wishes, and hate or depersonalize them when they don’t. Noone has a monopoly on love, and we can always use more of it (well almost always – I think I already love myself too much).
Self-importance appears to be a stupidity-like thing whose growth is not limited by mass and whose total amount seems to be infinite or just really large.
It still kind of shocks me when people are surprised bout how Christians follow the Bible first and the constitution/democracy second.
I grew up in a fundamentalist Baptist household, and as a child, my mother used to tell me that she loved Jesus more than me, more than my brother, and more than my father. She said that I had to love Jesus more than her and my family, as well, or else I wasn’t being a true Christian.
So this is nothing new to me.
This really gives me the creeps. This Christian Campus Crusade, this Christian Embassy, all these Christofacist tools to infiltrate the military, a real nightmare. The only thing that’s missing, but maybe not for that long, is a really severe economic crisis similar to 1929 and…
This is clearly anticonstitutional isn’t it ? So it should be easy to stop it ?
Well if it’s not, it just means that constitution of yours needs to be ammended before it’s too late, that should be possible no ?
The US spends half of the world’s total military expenditure, so we, people from other nations, can do nothing, apart from crying, screaming, and prostrating ourselves until maybe Americans wake up before it’s too late.
If the only thing that can be done is for American secularists to also cry and scream in desperation about it, that gives me even more the creeps, there must be at least some sort of action plan to stop this.
Please does anybody know where it is ?
Please does anybody have a plan ?
Please ?
Well, I’ve got a bit of a unique view of this matter. I work for a large Defence Contractor (Hint: We also make calculators), so I spend quite a bit of time around army, navy and airforce. There’s quite a big difference between them.
I’m an atheist myself, and I find that (generalisation coming up), the navy is much more accepting of other people, atheist or christian, than the army. Of course, the fact that ‘us civilians’ get to ‘sleep in’ and order them around despite not holding rank, doesn’t make me very popular to start with, but I’d much rather be at a naval base than an army base, purely because they don’t swarm with fundie christians.
I’m not surprised at all that this happens. In fact, I’m surprised that it doesn’t happen a lot more. I’ve had several less-then-pleasant encounters with army soldiers, several about religion, and my inability to keep my mouth shut about it.
This is such familiar territory to those of us who’ve grown up in right-wing Christian families. At this point, it would surprise me if there wasn’t active discrimination against non-Christians, and especially atheists, in the US military. Been that way since the Reagan era. What’s really scary is that in the military there are also many of the kinds of Christians who yearn for Armageddon (Reagan was like that, too); they see the destruction wrought by the US military as helping bring about the end times.
It gets worse (if that’s possible)! The army has been collecting all un-eaten Jebus crackers (see previous revelation about student who kidnapped Jebus) and is actively cloning an entire Jebus-army!! Ha, ha, ha!
Deang says the military has “[b]een that way since the Reagan era.”
Listen youngster, it’s been that way since long before my Navy days in the late ’50s. Also—probably not coincidentally—Southerners have a disproportionately high representation among the officer corps. (Although not so much in the Air Force.)
I went to have a look in some military blogs, and there seems to be quite some ressentment on this issue.
Now obviously, we all know the statistics, you are not likely to find many atheists in the military, neither on these blogs.
But what you do find a lot, and this is interesting, are military, Christians, who speak out and react very negatively against the religious forcing of particular denominations that they saw happening or happened to them within the military.
So, it is fair to assume that whilst the CCC and similar forcing operations were recruiting people they must have also had a negative reaction, which has gradually built up over time, within the military itself.
Consequently, they might have succesfully evangelized, but they probably also have increased the percentage of those who will defend secularism as a reaction.
So it is a question how big the internal forces from within the military are and might be activated to push for reform on this issue. Now, with Secretary Gates and George Bush nothing will happen. But with a new administration ?
Of course there are many nutcases within the military, I did find this one in this blog, he left me with this profound comment which I thought I’d share ;
i’ve always found the sentiment of the first quoted paragraph particularly ironic: the bible itself is a very frequent route to atheism. this is apparently a problem for theologists, too…
but, uh, if i were him, i probably would have gone with the “smartass” answers, especially if careful reading of the bible was the deciding factor in abandoning faith. don’t want to pray in public? make sure you know the first half dozen verses of matthew 6 by heart.
As an active-duty Marine, I can say from first-hand experience that religious proselytizing is sponsored at the command level. Before every event or ceremony, the chaplain leads in prayer. I usually stand there and just look at everybody with the realization that I don’t fit in. My command actually held an event for the national day of prayer. In addition, one of our idiot chaplains is allowed to advertise in our base newspaper for his book titled: “No Atheists in Foxholes: Reflections and Prayers from the Front”. I’ve never experienced the blatant discrimination that the Army specialist encountered, but I’ve seen enough to learn that our kind aren’t wanted, which is why I’ll be getting out to pursue something worthwhile, like science or engineering.
I have read Pharyngula for over a year now, but this is my first post. I think I can add something because I graduated from the Air Force Academy in May 2007.
Is it more conservative than your average college? Absolutely. Are cadets more religious than your average American? I am actually not sure about this question, but either way, I wanted to defend my school.
As for me, I am rabidly for the separation of church and state. I am an atheist. I wasn’t the entire time at the Academy, but I was always skeptical of fundamental religion while there and the video of CCC made me wince, but I want to point out what I experienced. I never once felt pressured to go to church. There were a few cadets that were ridiculously Christian, but the thing is, most other cadets were annoyed with them. Outside of my closest friends, I had no idea about others religious preferences. I knew several outspoken atheists. They were treated just like everyone else. Most of my friends and I managed to joke about various religions with each other.
It is true that there were religious programs on Monday evenings, but if you’ll notice, there were about 50 cadets (out of 4400) in that room, so it was by no means mandatory or highly emphasized or frequently attended. During the first summer of Basic Training, you were allowed to either go to church or relax in your room. I never felt shunned by the upper class cadets because myself and many others did not go. I was also at the Academy during the height of the “Religious Intolerance Scandal” in 2005, so presumably I should have seen something if it were that bad. As much as I would be the first person screaming if I saw the stuff from the CCC video, I didn’t recognize the Academy that I went to from the news reports. I know most of the cadets at the Academy are Christian, but I think the fundamentalist movement was much much smaller than the video would have you believe.
Now, I can’t speak for the Army or any other service, and I have only been on active duty for a year, so the active AF may be different, but most of my friends know my religious beliefs (or lack thereof rather), and I suspect it will not effect my career at all. I do agree with one of the earlier posts that the Air Force does tend to be the most “liberal” service. We were the quickest to integrate and have the most jobs open to women. But, the Academy is nowhere near as bad as you all might think. I had no idea CCC was even on campus, and I also still don’t know where Focus on the Family is actually located in Colorado Springs. Now, it is true that I would never have been near any of these places given my beliefs, but I still think I would have heard more about them if everyone was trying to convert me.
As for Mikey Weinstein, while I admire his efforts to protect the soldier in this story, I honestly do not trust the man. I think he is taking advantage of the story for his own personal benefit. The reason why I am doubtful of his convictions is because he claims he experienced terrible amounts of descrimination as a Jewish cadet in the late 70s. While it only came out after the Religious Intolerance Scandal, I suppose I could accept that claim, but why in the heck would you allow your kids to go to such a horribly discriminatory institution, were that the case? I have seen him talk at the Academy, and I feel like he is on a vendetta and enjoys the attention. I agree with the mission of freeing the military of fundamentalism, and I hope that you all trust that there is actually a sizable group of atheists, agnostics, free thinkers and reasonable Christians in the military (at least the parts I have experienced).
I am retired Navy and had absolutely zero issues with anything like this. I didn’t know the Chaplains name or where his office was on our ship.
It does seem, however, that this may a strategic (wedge) maneuver. Just like getting people to take silly little positions on school boards etc… to try and work their agenda in from the bottom up.
I may be looking through rose colored glasses but I think this may be a rare incident.
Maybe it’s worse in the Army than the Navy – I wouldn’t know, but I didn’t even know anyone that went to church!
(Boot camp was a different story – anything to sit in an air conditioned room) – if we had a moment to ourselves, it was usually spent sleeping.
Someone posted this link earlier:
http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/
Maybe we could ask a couple of these guys what their expierences are like instead of assuming the worst.
Perhaps the Army should be Christian, the Marines could be Islamic, the Navy gets all things Eastern and the Air Force can be Jewish.
As long as the Commander-in-Chief isn’t fundamentalist, I would be happy.
… the much valued “unit cohesion” of our military is tissue thin …
The usual expression, iirc, is “wafer” thin – in present context, I’m surprised this wasn’t written as “goddamned cracker” thin.
(Sir, yessir! How many pushups, sir?!?)
after explaining why i didn’t really care that there were no priests, but rather only reverends, to turn to during our stay with the york militia here in canada, a quick and obvious policy of harassment was put in place.
hardly unlikely, as the ceo instantly expressed his view that he’d “have no gawd damned atheists in his outfit”.
Constantine’s Sword? I just finished Chapter 38. Hang in there, PZ!
Like S.Scott, I’m retired Navy. We didn’t have chaplains in submarines, instead we had lay leaders to attend to any religious matters. There was sometimes a problem getting people to volunteer for lay leader jobs. There was a fair bit of work involved for little return. A sentence or two in an annual evaluation or fitness report was not considered adequate recompense for giving up a couple of hours of free time per week for religious duties.
Many of the lay leaders were fundamentalists. However, they were quite strictly enjoined from proselytizing. A few of the lay leaders in subs I was in were relieved from lay leader positions because of proselytizing. Few of the sailors, even religious people, appreciated proselytizing.
At least when I was in (I retired in the early 1990s), there was little discussion of politics or religion. There was even less condemnation of people holding minority political or religious views. That’s how I, a liberal atheist, was able to make it to Captain.
Jose@52
Yep, if your evil atheist presidung plans to invade “dirty Australia” can he please make it next week so that the the fine US fundy army can clear out the gathering of papal spawn and their satanic leader.
Thanks (in anticipation.
The thing that bugged me most about Constantine’s Sword was how many of the Vatican’s crimes the author omitted.
Particularly: Pope Pius XII was not only complicit in securing Hitler’s chancellorship and in using Church records to help identify non-Christians, he also (apparently valuing the Nazis as a shield against the gawdless commies) stood by without a peep of protest as about 1.5 million Catholics in Poland – including most of the priests – were butchered. (Some estimates double that number.) His “own” flock, sacrificed like so many pawns, but James Carroll apparently knows nothing about this.
@ Jim Ramsey,No 99 :
//being a Christian means loving inconveniently. That is, not just the cute kids and the sweet old ladies, but the smelly people and especially the ones who just aren’t grateful.//
I can feel with you mate,how hard it must be,how stretching to your true christian morals,to love the smelly people.Something evil atheists with their moral deficiency could never achieve,and that requires true christian morality as a prerequisite,and even then,phhewww,its sooo hard.
What a pile of horseshit !
KenG,No 123 :
Id rather not have the US fundy army here,thank you very much ! At least the death cultists with their nazi leader and the rotten carcass of that undead dude will go away again eventually….
This is amusing. On Michael’s (#76) page he has a section with the title:
Energy Can Neither Be Created Nor Destroyed
E=mc2
The confusion about what the equation means aside, is there a rule about creationists not using superscripts?
Ah, but clinteas just think of the extra business that fundy army would take to King’s Cross!
Jesus, God of War.
Let’s stop mentioning Reagan. Reagan was not capable of the depth of thought to even have theological tendencies. Blame Watt or Meese for the ineptitude of those times, but stop abusing the special kid.
The sum of Ronald Reagan’s faith was being taught to cock his head like a dog and say “God bless”.
I tell the really annoying proselytizers that I’m an antithesist: I’m open to the extreme possibility of a god existing, but I’m 100% sure their particular god is imaginary.
is there a rule about creationists not using superscripts?
I believe so. You see, that would suggest that the subscripted number is “above” ordinary numbers and letters, that it “sits on high”, and so might tempt the godly into idolatry ;-)
melior@130 I thought an antitheist was someone like Bakunin, who said: “If God existed, it would be necessary to destroy him.” – a sentiment with which I would heartily agree, given the heinous crimes (“acts of God”) that would be his responsibility.
@131 sub->super!
“Shoot, I just wanna share Christ’s love ‘n’ peace wi’ you all. Bombs away!”
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition, what a contradiction we humans are.
Erik Prince, who runs the other military: BLACKWATER, is a rectionary fundie kook from a long line of them.
Prince serves as vice president of the Edgar and Elsa Prince Foundation. Salon reports that “between July 2003 and July 2006, the foundation gave at least $670,000 to the Family Research Council and $531,000 to Focus on the Family”[15] headed by James Dobson. The foundation is also a major donor to Calvin College[16], a Christian institution in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Prince also serves as a board member of Christian Freedom International, a non-profit group with a mission of helping “Christians who are persecuted for their faith in Jesus Christ.”
Be afraid
Josh, It’s sort of depressing to think that your teammates would let you die (and perhaps themselves) because you didn’t believe as they did. It’s probably more common than I would like, though. If I can’t love someone who doesn’t agree with me but who has put my life in their hands towards a common goal, I don’t see how the concept of my loving anyone else has much meaning.
Hap, I doubt anyone on my team would actually let harm come to me on the basis of me not being handicapped with a mythology. They’re pretty sharp guys for the most part, and unless you’re gay (*rolls eyes*) or Muslim (*shrugs*), aren’t that judgmental.
It’s just not an area where I’ve wanted to spend political capital up to now. We train to do very high risk shit in tight quarters and I simply don’t want them to see me as “other” any more than they already do (liberal PhD older guy). There might come a time to get into the weeds on this topic with them. It hasn’t yet come.
As a former officer in the military (got out in ’92, when Rummie and Cheney cut the forces for their civilian buddies benefits), I don’t remember seeing this, but yeah, it is getting worse. I’ve been following Hall’s case through posts and podcasts (he’s been on Freethought Radio, and his story has been on Reasonable Doubts, Dogma Free America, and others) – along with the other stories. It is very disturbing, and the fundies have been encouraging people to join up with the express mission of conversion. It is really scary when you add in a warmongering president and the troubles with a nuclear Israel and a psychotic Iranian leader. The newest missile test, and the wanna-be Israeli leaders willingness to “talk (and act) tough” to get elected (along with their willingness to shoot first and let America deal with the consequences)…it does not make me feel warm and fuzzy. Hopefully we can at least make it through January and have a sane President that might, hopefully, rein in these morons.
I second (or whatever it is) supporting the MRFF.
a psychotic Iranian leader – Badger3k
A minor point perhaps, but Ahmadinejad, to whom I assume you refer, does not control Iranian foreign or military policy and Khamenei, who does, while a highly unpleasant religious bigot, has given no evidence of mental instability, AFAIK.
No, there isn’t any point in spending personal capital doing that (I wasn’t implying that you should) – it was more about how little it takes to move someone from the “us” column to the “them” column.
I’ve just started listening to the really rather good Reasonable Doubts podcast. They had a great episode on this, entitled, The Lords Army :)
Doesn’t everyone think this is really really scary. Why the hell are these God botherer’s allowed to pray on scared, lonely cadets ? Brainwashing the USA’s future leaders is too horrific to think about.
There should be no place EVER for religion in schools, politics, armed forces or business.
…it was more about how little it takes to move someone from the “us” column to the “them” column.
Pretty damn sad, isn’t it?
Isn’t the notion much older? What about “give unto the emperor”?
At 51 years old, I have spent much of my life pondering religion. Raised Catholic, it was early in life (like just after “confirmation”) that I became “non-practicing”. Over the next 10-15 years, I waffled between “non-religious”, “non-practicing”, “agnostic”, “against organized religion” to my present belief: atheism. I mention that only because this was a process for me, not an instantaneous change, and I spent a lot of time reading, researching, and thinking.
I am more afraid of the American fundamentalists and religious right than I am of Iraq, Iran, N Korea, etc.
I am recommending Al Gore’s book “The Assault on Reason” to anyone who shares these concerns. The US constitution & democratic process have been high jacked by those who belong to those two groups; add in the very wealthy and we have a situation that is volatile and potentially poised to remove almost all of our civil rights.
It’s time to take a stand and blogs like this are helpful to those like me who are in the minority in their community. I called our county offices to complain of a blatantly Christian prayer before a county meeting; I was told I was the FIRST one to complain….my work place has people who all attend the same church–and guess who gets special treatment? Listen to the LimbaughBeckDrudgeHannity group–Christians talk about “Christian-bashing”, and yet it’s okay to use pejorative terms and tone to describe “Liberals”, “Atheists”, etc?
I am afraid for my country. What do I do about it? Write and call my congressman, senator, president. Support those who are running for public office who do NOT have this bias. VOTEVOTEVOTE for those who share my concerns or at least vote AGAINST those who promote the fundamentalist/wealth viewpoint.
Name me one time the atheists have been in charge that has *not* resulted in the worst atrocities in human history?
In fact, name me one thing atheists have done, period, to help humanity?
You call yourself a “godless libertarian,” which implies a philosophy of self-centeredness and individualism, a lack of responsiblity to others–the epitome of what atheism is all about.
Atheists talk as if evolution *mattered*, as if somehow it either casts any real doubt on the existence of God (it doesn’t), or as if any human being’s life can be made better by knowing about evolution (they can’t, because it’s irrelevant to anyone except a biologist).
That’s it. Most of the great scientific discoveries (including some nasty ones like birth control pills) have been made by, ahem, Catholics. Most of the great scientists have been theists, if not outright believers.
Atheism has nothing to do with science and everything to do with solipsism. You don’t like some aspect of the Natural Law, so you reject the Natural Lawgiver and make yourself into your own deity.
You say things that you know will insult people and make them angry. Then when they get angry (some of them–a minority by your own unwilling admission–expressing that anger sinfully), you say, “Ha! See? They got angry at my inflammatory comments! All Christians are fruitcakes because a small minority of my responses–many from the same people under different IDs–were vitriolic.” You don’t acknowledge the hatred and threats that Christians get from atheists every day.
Here’s the difference between atheists and Christians: Christians acknowledge a) we’re sinners, b) we need forgiveness and c) sometimes, in spite of trying to do our best, we mess up. Atheists just think they’re perfect, and everyone else in the world is beneath them.
Atheists just think they’re perfect
Liar.