It’s not quite “We are the world”


What is wrong with these people?

Be sure to catch the cute little toddler’s solo at the end. Tell me, is this child abuse yet?

Comments

  1. Dennis says

    I lol’ed. The bad part about this is that Falwell and Dobson followers get to look at these people and say “Oh, well THAT’S just too far”, and convince themselves they’re anything but maximally crazy.

  2. Tex says

    PZ, I don’t understand what your beef is with these people. You have to at least give them points for honesty. Given that they believe the Bible is the word of God, their positions follow quite logically. All of that stuff about hating homosexuals (and nearly everybody else) is right there in Leviticus. As Sam Harris says, it is the religous moderates (now there’s an oxymoron for you) who have perverted God’s word.

    And yes, the toddler’s solo at the end is child abuse, as is any religious indoctrination of people who do not have the mental capacity to fight back.

  3. says

    You’ll eat your kids?

    I can kind of see the twisted logic of all the rest, but wtf? where the heck did they come up with that?

  4. says

    Wow. Just…wow.

    If it’s too late to change His mind, I guess I have to go to Hell then. Frankly, if Fred Phelps is right, I’d rather go to Hell then spend eternity with his moronic followers anyhow.

  5. GodlessHeathen says

    I’ve no idea why Calvinists would put this sort of effort into telling people they’re going to hell, since it was decided before their birth that it was to be so.

    Strange lot.

  6. Dennis says

    Oh shit. I just caught the warning to watch the toddler solo at the end (little text, big video box: easy to overlook.) Naturally, I stopped at 2 minutes having seen all I needed to see…

    But, I went back to watch the last bit. Truly sickening.

    Unfortunately, no ordinary religious person is going to look at this and think there might be something wrong with their own practices. After all, they’re not preaching that it’s too late for the world and everyone is going to be damned to hell… they’re just preaching that it’s almost too late for the world, and MOST people are going to be damned to hell.

  7. says

    Just to weird you all out, Phelps was a registered Democrat.

    I don’t think he voted for anyone, since he hates everyone.

  8. CCP says

    What’s wrong with these people?
    1. They can’t sing.
    2. They don’t swing.
    3. Only one of them has any concept of harmony.
    4. They don’t seem to know which side of the Canadian flag goes up (what was that supposed to mean, btw?)
    5. They are child abusers indeed.

    Oh, that, and they are clearly batshit insane.

    Anyone else catch the subtle misogyny too? God (“He”) hates the world and all her people. (Especially those with 2 X chromosomes, methinks).

  9. says

    Yes, Tex, but gods are a fiction. And following their immoral strictures is silly and causes grave harm, even though they’re fictional.

  10. says

    I think the Canadian flag flying upside down is similar to an inverted American flag — a sign of distress.

    And given that it’s flying with the Phelpses, I’m sure the flag itself is distressed.

  11. Nathan Parker says

    One irony is that the agents of the god of the universe must resort to borrowing the musical creativity of the secular world, rather that coming up with something catchy of their own.

  12. Mike Eagles says

    Ah yes, the Phelpsians. Could someone please explain to me what these weirdos actually believe in? I looked at their website, but it’s all hysterical ranting. I can’t actually figure out what their system is.

  13. Stephen says

    Notice the director, “Alan Smithee” is a pseudonym directors use when they’re ashamed of the final product. They should be ashamed.

  14. says

    OK. Stop. Just make it stop. This has to be one of the most disturbing things I have ever seen. I was so upset by this that I followed the link hoping it was a parody of the ‘God hates fags’ crowd, put together by some clever skeptics to demonstrate the vicious insanity of the former’s belief system.

    Nope. This is that very crowd, doing what they do, and having a great time doing it. I did hear a giggle near the end, but judging by the unison sound, this was reasonably well-rehearsed as well. They were reveling in it.

    I can’t convey how much this upsets me.

  15. GodlessHeathen says

    Interesting, I just found out Shirley Phelps has an “illegitimate” son. If I’m not mistaken, by Calvinist standards, she’s doomed to hell. (Though she claims otherwise, of course.)

  16. Bob O'H says

    Sorry, but isn’t this just an exercise in irony? I thought it was hilarious.

    Bob

  17. Tex says

    Ah yes, the Phelpsians. Could someone please explain to me what these weirdos actually believe in? I looked at their website, but it’s all hysterical ranting. I can’t actually figure out what their system is.

    They believe in the Bible. All of this stuff is in there. They aren’t making any of this up, except maybe the ‘eat your children’ part. I don’t remember that particular bit of bat shittery, but it would fit in quite well with the rest of it.

  18. mommyrex says

    That was touching. They finally have me convinced! Oh, but “It’s too late to change his mind.” Guess I’ll just go eat my kids, after all.

  19. cureholder says

    Third try: Keeps cutting off!

    >>points for honesty<<< ?!?! If a child molester honestly believes that it is right to molest children, do we give him/her "points for honesty?" No, we condemn the belief as incompatible with a civil society and lock the molester away so s/he can't get at more kids. Here, we say, "Whatever you want to teach your children is fine as long as you believe it, even if it involves teaching hate against others based on stupid books of myths." Child abuse? Absolutely. There's a line in the bible (psalm 137) blessing the people who would take the hebrews' children by the ankles and dash their heads against rocks (so they wouldn't have to suffer the indignity of growing up under an oppressive people who weren't god's chosen). I think the same way about these kids. For most of them, an early death would be an escape from the torture they will face as they grow up. (I am absolutely NOT suggesting they should be killed!) According to Dawkins, statistically, very few of them will actually be able to escape. I intend to help as many of them as I can get in touch with. I've been where they are.

  20. Obstreperous B says

    The irony of them calling everyone else “hateful people” is pretty rich.

    As I understand it, the Phelpsians actually get off on being hated, as it helps bind them together as a group (perhaps by ensuring potential apostates see no kindness from the outside world). So I’m somewhat ambivalent about ragging on them, as it feels a little like I’m becoming a participant in their whole sick sadomasochistic deal.

  21. Janine says

    I turned off the song after less then a minute. Nothing new here to see and why watch such poisoned and twisted people. But I did watch the little girl. She has no idea what she is saying. And the smile at the end when she is done because she made her parents happy. Sad.

    Child abuse, hell yes. Just think of all the adults that are part of the choir, one has to think they were also like the little girl. It is much easier to hate them because they had the change to try to rethink think their believes and chose not to. But at some point, they were like that little girl.

    As for why they did a parody of a secular song? Being creative is not a goal for these people. Cowering under the sight of an angry Big Sky Daddy is the only way to life. Being creative gets in the way of this. Also, being creative might lead to the idea the there is pleasure to be had in using your own intelligence which leads one away from living in fear at all times.

    Just feel grateful the people like this are a minority of humanity. If they were more plentiful throughout history and prehistory, we would still be cowering in caves.

  22. Janine says

    Obstreperous B has a valid point, yelling back at them feeds into their martyr complex. At Dyke Marches and Pride Parades I have been in in the past, I would smile and wave at these people. They want to have an angry exchange. I will not play into it as much as I despise these people.

    But we need to be aware of these types of people and why they are such a menace. That is not hate. That is being aware of your surroundings.

  23. Josh says

    Wow, these people just read my mind. They sang “you will all stand together and fall,” just as I was looking into their eyes and thinking exactly the same thing. After all, that is precisely what they were doing, standing together in front of that cliche microphone and falling for all the worst parts of the Bible. “Change is coming,” they sing. Indeed, I think, but far from the change they seem to imagine. If only they didn’t ascribe literal meaning to all the shit coming out of their mouths, I might actually agree with it. What gets me is the sheer thickness of sedimentary rock that separates their fossilized interpretations of these ancient words from the only meaning the words seem to actually have (that being the exact opposite of what they seem to think). If God existed, She no doubt WOULD hate a world composed only of such hypnotized sheep.

    Love makes the world go ’round, and self-hatred grinds it to a halt, as these people demonstrate with unmitigated clarity. And for the record, passing on such perverse language to the next generation is more than child-abuse. These kids are being sentenced to a life of confusion, delusion, and hallucination. The devil’s family indeed. Shame on them all.

  24. Sailor says

    Tex “except maybe the ‘eat your children’ part”
    Ezekiel 5:10
    “Therefore in your midst fathers will eat their children, and children will eat their fathers. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all your survivors to the winds”

    Every good citizen who wants to help their religion-virus sickened bretheren need to pagemark this – they have an excellent search feature. Know your mind virus.
    http://www.biblegateway.com/

    For people supposedly full of hate, they look like they are having a ball. Even the toddler. I am not sure hey so much hate stuff as LOVE THE LIMELIGHT.

  25. says

    I image they’re flying the Canadian flag upside down as a sign of distress or perhaps our inverted values. Gay marriage has been legal here all over the country for about three years and it distresses them that life hasn’t dissolved into chaos yet. In fact, it’s going along pretty much as usual. Possibly teenage suicides have dropped, as gay teens realize that yes, they can grow up, fall in love, and get married, just like everyone else. BTW, it’s Pride Week in Toronto and the Mayor and local Members of Parliament will be riding in the Gay Pride parade. Church Street, which runs through the gay village, will be turned into a street fair.

  26. DFX says

    I like the part where they tell us to stop sinning, yet the whole song is about how it’s already too late and we are going to hell…so uh…what is our motivation for stopping?

  27. David Marjanović says

    Just to weird you all out, Phelps was a registered Democrat.

    Ah. Well, it’s America. Zell “Godzella” Miller is a registered Democrat, too.

  28. David Marjanović says

    Just to weird you all out, Phelps was a registered Democrat.

    Ah. Well, it’s America. Zell “Godzella” Miller is a registered Democrat, too.

  29. Ken Mareld says

    That’s seriously disturbed s**t. Though the targets of their venom is really esoteric. Fallen US soldiers? Homosexuals? The Swedish monarchy? This is a Jim Jones/Heaven’s Gate cult just waiting for their time.
    I copy/pasted the video (not from your website, PZ) to USA for Africa. I think they hold the copyright for “You Are the World”. While I am a fan of ‘copyleft’ open source, I asked that they would sue these assholes to oblivion for clear copyright violation.
    Since they’ve been around for a while (Westboro Baptist Church), I’m only surprised that extreme violence hasn’t been perpetrated by one or some of their members. All religions are cults, but these folks qualify for cult to the tenth.

    Ken from Kent

  30. says

    Okay, religion is wack, but these people are beyond wacky. It’s a really tiny splinter cult if the sect members genuinely believe that “it’s too late to change his mind”. They don’t accept deathbed conversions? The milk of human kindness sure has curdled in these “Christians”. That New Testament forgiveness stuff was just kidding, I guess. Are any of them worried that they missed the repentance deadline? (Haven’t they thought about the warning not to “judge lest ye be judged”? I think it’s a sin of pride!)

  31. RamblinDude says

    Let’s not forget that many of the early colonists in America were these people’s Puritan predecessors. They burnt witches at the stake and saw evil in everything. They would have been right at home singing these lyrics.

    Am I wrong?

  32. Anton Mates says

    You’ll eat your kids?

    I can kind of see the twisted logic of all the rest, but wtf? where the heck did they come up with that?

    Where do you think? Leviticus 26:29, Deuteronomy 28:53, Jeremiah 19:9 and Ezekiel 5:10.

  33. Paul t. says

    If it’s too late, then let’s party!

    My prediction for these folks is that someday, we’ll see them on the evening news, holed up in their church and shooting it out with the police. The kind of power and influence that Phelps has over these people has only one outcome.

  34. Justin Wagner says

    I don’t know what’s worse: the bigotry, or the fact that I’m going to have this song stuck in my head all day. I’ll have to crank up some Highway to Hell I guess.

  35. says

    You should also know that Fred Phelps was physically abusive to his kids. Often beating the boys severely for minor infractions. I had read a documentary about it at one point. That’s why several of Fred Phelps kids (Shirley’s brothers) won’t talk to him anymore. Fred Phelps demonizes these kids as apostate God haters. I think that’s really the heart of the matter when it comes to the Phelps – Fred Phelps feeds on hatred. I think some of his kids (like Shirley) came to the belief that Fred Phelps beatings were just even though they were severe – because thats the way her mind dealt with the experience as a child, which is similar to the excuses a woman might use to legitimize beatings from her abusive husband. Once she legitimized her dad’s severe beating for minor errors, once she believed severe beatings were “right”, it was only natural to believe God would use severe beatings, too (why wouldn’t God do what was “right”?) – and that’s exactly the kind of God Fred Phelps taught to his children. He taught them that God’s personality is very similar to Fred Phelps’ personality: abusive, violent, short-tempered.

  36. CalGeorge says

    Absolutely appalling behavior.

    Think about it. They carefully rehearsed that sick song of hatred, then broadcast it for all the world to see.

    They had plenty of time to reflect on the nasty lyrics, plenty of opportunity to consider how utterly mean-spirited they were being, and yet they went forward.

    Fucking, fucking sick.

  37. Niobe says

    Working with little kids, I can only imagine the hours they spent with that girl ramming in the lines so she can sing it from the top of her head.

    The other day my almost 3yo daughter ask me what people actually do in a church. Thinking up with a concept to explain it seemed almost laughable. (I answered “singing and telling stories”.)

  38. Mike Eagles says

    It’s interesting (but hardly surprising) that all these radical religious/ideological dimbulbs are so uncreative when it comes to things like this. Obviously it’s meant to be sort of a joke, playing off “We Are The World,” but not only is it pathetically unfunny (I’m sure they cracked THEMSELVES up) but by the end you can tell they sort of mean it, too, and can’t tell where joke ends and the half-assed bigoteds Hallmark-greeting card sentimentality begins (awww, a little girl!)

  39. carey says

    Well, as a devout agnostic, I certainly belong to their targeted group, but they seem to picture everyone running around with a tube of KY in one hand and some Ready-whip in the other, whose kids are slathered in BBQ sauce and turning slowly over the fire. They would be shocked – shocked, I say – at my quotidian life… And now I have to get back to my filthy, disgusting physics book.

  40. Peter Ashby says

    ramblindude
    Don’t get too down on the Puritan Fathers, back home they were burning witches and heretics too. The proto US didn’t have a monopoly on religious bigotry its just that they had very much more freedom to cultivate and spread it. Freedom means the crazies get to be free too, or else it is tyranny by the sane.

  41. says

    These people are obviously very caught up in the revenge fantasy aspect of Christianity — where everybody who disagrees with them and looks down on them will pay a heavy price someday. They’re practically writhing in hate, as if it’s a snake slithering around in their intestines. And their religion justifies it all.

    They’re an extreme example, but I think the revenge fantasy aspect of Christianity is a big part of its broad appeal. These people, because they are more hateful and childish than most, are highlighting something that is lurking in even the most moderate of Christian hearts.

  42. says

    By the way, I don’t think we ever burned any witches on this side of the Atlantic. We lynched and crushed a few, but I think all the literal burnings at the stake took place in Europe and thereabouts. Burning at the stake was more of a Catholic thing, wasn’t it?

  43. Opisthokont says

    This sort of religiously motivated hatred always makes me wonder what these people think of John 3:16 — “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” This is of course the verse touted by the Gideons as the most translated passage in the history of humankind; one would think that people that claim to take the Bible literally would take this well-known and very unambiguous passage under consideration.

    Come to think of it, though, that passage also pretty well undermines Calvinism as well, does it not? I just cannot understand how these people think. Cynical, snarky comments aside here, this one is just so obvious that I really do wonder.

  44. Caledonian says

    Let’s not forget that many of the early colonists in America were these people’s Puritan predecessors. They burnt witches at the stake and saw evil in everything. They would have been right at home singing these lyrics.

    Am I wrong?

    Yes. There were hangings, and one pressing with stones, but no burning at the stake.

  45. RamblinDude says

    Peter Ashby and others: Okay, good point, no actual ‘burning at the stake’ of the evil ones.

    One of these people’s goals is to not be creative. They are purposely not singing well because that would be indulging in vanity, and giving into temptations of the flesh, or whatever.

    It really puts things into perspective to see these brainwashed, spirit deadened fanatics chanting their extremist slogans. It makes one realize just how appallingly opposite to ‘vital and alive’ people can be.
    I usually feel irritation and disgust for the ‘subservient deluded’, the lying religious crowd, but these people just make me feel sad. They are enslaved, and I would have to agree with those who have commented here that cults like these end in disaster.

  46. bernarda says

    It is hard to imagine what they expected to accomplish with this song. That is why I at first thought it was a parody.

    It certainly is not aimed at converting anyone to give them some “hope”.

    It is too late and we are all doomed, so WTF?

  47. raven says

    HAH!!!! All you godless liberals must hate the US. We didn’t burn any witches at Salem. What propaganda.

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

    The Salem witch trials, begun in 1692 (also known as the Salem witch hunt and the Salem Witchcraft Episode), resulted in a number of convictions and executions for witchcraft in both Salem Village and Salem Town, Massachusetts. Some have argued it was the result of a period of factional infighting and Puritan witch hysteria. The trials resulted in the executions of 20 people (14 women, 6 men) and the imprisonment of between 175 and 200 people. In addition to those executed, at least five people died in prison. One man who refused to plead to the charges was pressed to death with rocks (the medieval torture of peine forte et dure, which, if fatal, did not result in forfeiture of property).

    There you have it. Twenty were hung, 5 died in prison under what were probably Abu Gharaib conditions, and 1 was tortured to death, 26 total.

    While this atrocity was unfortunate, it does have a lesson that the world routinely forgets. There are similar religious wingnuts roaming Iraq today butchering on a much wider scale with automatic rifles, explosives, and worse in the name of god.

    Nothing changes too much. At least once a year, an accused witch somewhere is murdered by someone for something.

  48. says

    raven, which wingnuts in Iraq are you talking about? We’ve got x number of Shiite militias, Z amount of Sunni militias, the entire Coalition of the Coerced, and then we’ve got the American crusaders, raping and pillaging for Jayzus and his proxy, Dubya.

    So many to pick from…

  49. Faid says

    Oh.

    My.

    Fictional.

    God.

    Until the end, I was fairly certain this was a tasteless parody.
    I would still wonder, had I not read the comments.

    Best example of Poe’s Law that I’ve seen.

  50. raven says

    I can’t help thinking that the Phelpsians are going to flame out one day.

    1. Could be a Seung Cho style attack on a one of their targets, a medical clinic or bar or whatever their favorite demons are that day.

    2. Could be a Waco style standoff with the cops. But I doubt it. The cops don’t do Wacos anymore.

    3. Or they could just Rapture themselves like the Heaven’ Gaters or Jonestowners. I’m sure they would gather a lot of applause for that one.

    Or maybe they will just fizzle out. If anyone but the head wingnut has a capacity for thought, the idea of a Heaven’s Gate incident must be a little alarming. Last I heard, the UFO fans were still dead and the spaceship never did show up.

    BTW, no one has to think too hard about these guys. Phelps is nuts and this is a very small, very nasty cult.

  51. says

    Okay, Phelps theology 101.

    1) World has ignored God.
    2) All sexual sin is equivalent to homosexuality.
    3) Anybody who doesn’t believe this, is a “fag enabler”.
    4) Because the US approves of homosexuality God hate everyone.
    5) God shows this hate via wars, deaths, AIDS, etc.

    When they called other people hateful, they mean to say that they hate God. And they have incurred God’s hate onto America. They are thankful for God’s justice and his wrath. Ergo, thank God for AIDS. Thank God for IEDs… etc. They believe we are equivalent to a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah and thusly bad things will start to happen as we are consumed by God’s hate. They are non-violent and typically just spread this message of hate (God’s hate) as a warning to others… who are probably already doomed.

    It’s a bit off the beaten path, but it seems about as solid as other Biblical interpretations. I daresay their only mistake is assuming the Bible has any authority at all.

    And yes, it was those backwards Europeans who burned their witches. Hah. The Church doctrines read clearly that “the church abhors bloodshed” — so they burnt them. Loopholes have nothing on nooses. We much more sophisticated Americans prefer to murder innocent people with a short drop and sudden stop.

  52. RamblinDude says

    I forgot to add:

    They’re an extreme example, but I think the revenge fantasy aspect of Christianity is a big part of its broad appeal. These people, because they are more hateful and childish than most, are highlighting something that is lurking in even the most moderate of Christian hearts.

    Posted by: Max Udargo | June 23, 2007 03:38 PM

    Succinctly put.

    it’s easy to see these people as extremists, but if you extrapolate the core beliefs and motivations of much of the religious right, (and fanatical beliefs all around the world), and follow them through to their logical conclusions, this is what you get–utter perversity.

  53. Molly, NYC says

    Anyone else catch the subtle misogyny too?

    I did, but not the same one you saw.

    In a normal group of women, even from the same family, even if they’re all broke and even if they’re all what the fashion mags call “low-maintenance,” you’ll see a range of choices about clothes, makeup, hair, etc. Even girls in school uniforms will fiddle with accessories and hair styles.

    Occasionally, you do find women (and men too) whose choice in these matters is: I am genuinely indifferent to my appearance. But they aren’t common (aside from mental patients); even women who (not unreasonably) believe the whole subject to be crass usually make an effort about it–if they’re able–in some regard or another (for example, they take care of their skin, or they have some earrings they like, or they have some outfit they wear to job interviews and such).

    Yet here are about a dozen women who are, to a one, face-naked, wearing what appear to be clothes from the Goodwill, and with hair in styles that could charitably be described as utilitarian. Zero effort has been made to make themselves look anything but dowdy, old, sexless and poor. Even the knowledge that, they were making a vid that would put them on display to people all over the planet wasn’t enough to get any of them to throw on some lipstick.

    Conclusion: These women weren’t given those choices. It’s probably what passes among the Phelpses as “proud sinning.”

    Note that a common pattern in controlling women’s sexuality anywhere (not just among the Phelpses) is making them feel like crap for looking attractive–especially if they put any money or effort into it. You can imagine what kind of head trips they laid on these women (and will lay on that little girl at the end of the video) to get them to look like that.

  54. woozy says

    Usually I’m opposed to living in denial. Yet I think I was much better off not believing these vile, vile, hateful, evil, people could really exist.

    Yes, I knew there was a lunatic fringe interupting miners’ and soldiers’ funerals with violent protests in the bizzare reasoning that the miners and soldiers were killed by God for America’s tolerance of homosexuality. But I guess I liked to believe… I dunno, they were just assholes.

    Gad, for the first 30 seconds or so I thought this was satire. I mean c’mon. Nobody can possibly believe God hates the world, right? I mean a cynic can posit God is an asshole but that’s hyperbole as such is usually an athiest, and an asshole can believe God hates his (the asshole’s) enemies and all the people who disagree with him. But even the most narrow minded bible-thumping bigot believes God has a plan for the world and loves his followers, right? God hates the world? Sheesh! Guess I was wrong.

    This is the most vile and disturbing thing I’ve ever seen!

  55. JrShaBaDu says

    I just plain didn’t understand this video. Maybe its because I think like a normal person.

    I’m reaching back to my youth when I actually believed in God but isn’t there something like “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.” in the bible? Correct me if I’ve got it wrong.

  56. badchemist says

    Having seen a Louis Theroux documentary on these loons the thing that I noticed most was that it was mainly a way for the older members of the group to control their children.

    The attitude was that the children, even those who were now in their 20s, were not allowed to have relationships etc because they had to devote all their time to Gawd but it was ok for the adults when it was their turn. Obviously this is dressed up as “the end of the world is nigh” therefore time is short.

    Phelps was unsurprisingly a complete &$%£. When asked how many children he had claimed it was a stupid question. Whereas, considering several of his children are outcasts from the group, it would be interesting to hear his reply.

    I have no idea if this programme was shown in the US, a clip can be found here

  57. woozy (blinders! see the world through the woozy element) says

    #61

    Yet here are about a dozen women who are, to a one, face-naked, wearing what appear to be clothes from the Goodwill, and with hair in styles that could charitably be described as utilitarian.

    Except the one wearing the pink “God Hates Fags” T-shirt.

    HAH! There’s an ad on this comment page from Dow Chemicals right now. It says “See the world through the eyes of the Human Element”. Well, if the this video was an example of the Human Element I’d rather not.

    ====
    Somewhere above someone wrote:

    They’re an extreme example, but I think the revenge fantasy aspect of Christianity is a big part of its broad appeal. These people, because they are more hateful and childish than most, are highlighting something that is lurking in even the most moderate of Christian hearts.

    I hate being a religious apologist, but no, I just can’t accept that. These folks are just evil.

  58. says

    Was just looking through their many godhates… websites and discovered this open letter to the UK (written because of a recent BBC documentary), looks like there will be a godhatesbritain very soon. They’ve even rewritten God Save the Queen to God Hate the Queen, so they will rewrite anything!

  59. woozy says

    #64

    I’m reaching back to my youth when I actually believed in God but isn’t there something like “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.” in the bible? Correct me if I’ve got it wrong.

    I always thought that line was kind of obnoxious. A little bit like a harried mother spanking her kid and then admonishing the kid with “look what you made me do”.

    And I always thought it was flawed in that he only had his only son for the purpose of giving it up. That’s a bit like raising chickens for meat and then claiming you are making personal sacrifices in giving up your pets.

    But, yes, there is the line. I always figured even the most hateful and nasty and fire and brimstone people had a belief that God has some plan and hope for the world. To actually think God hates the world is … well, this may sound kind of hypocritical on this particular website but to actually think God hates the world is just sick.

  60. RamblinDude says

    “They’re an extreme example, but I think the revenge fantasy aspect of Christianity is a big part of its broad appeal. These people, because they are more hateful and childish than most, are highlighting something that is lurking in even the most moderate of Christian hearts.”

    I hate being a religious apologist, but no, I just can’t accept that. These folks are just evil.

    Posted by: woozy (blinders! see the world through the woozy element)

    Sorry, but don’t try to tell me that millions of good Christians in this country don’t see atheists and other ‘sinners’ as the swarming mob outside of Noah’s ark.

    The churches are filled with people who cultivate submissiveness and feelings of superiority and condescension toward the unbelievers.

  61. raven says

    I’m reaching back to my youth when I actually believed in God but isn’t there something like “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.” in the bible? Correct me if I’ve got it wrong.

    Phelp’s theology is on par with his sanity, seriously nonexistent. Christ’s message is far more benign than the wingnuts admit. He was the one who stopped the crowd from stoning an adultress to death, healing the sick, feeding the hungry, and so on.

    He also says in no uncertain terms that judging people is the lords job and not for mortals. Phelps will be very lucky if god turns out to not exist. I don’t think he would be too happy with Fred.

    The god of the old testament seems to be almost totally disconnected from the god of the new testament. This has lead some to claim that god was just getting started when he created the world and he has been growing up ever since.

  62. DingoDave says

    Oran Taran wrote:
    #4 “You’ll eat your kids?
    I can kind of see the twisted logic of all the rest, but wtf? where the heck did they come up with that?”

    Dear Oran, read and weep.

    Leviticus 26:
    [27] “And if in spite of this you will not hearken to me, but walk contrary to me,
    [28] then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and chastise you myself sevenfold for your sins.
    [29] You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
    [30] And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and cast your dead bodies upon the dead bodies of your idols; and my soul will abhor you.

    Deuteronomy 28:
    [49] The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you do not understand……
    [52] They shall besiege you in all your towns, until your high and fortified walls, in which you trusted, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you in all your towns throughout all your land, which the LORD your God has given you.
    [53] And you shall eat the offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemies shall distress you.
    [54] The man who is the most tender and delicately bred among you will grudge food to his brother, to the wife of his bosom, and to the last of the children who remain to him;
    [55] so that he will not give to any of them any of the flesh of his children whom he is eating, because he has nothing left him, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in all your towns.
    [56] The most tender and delicately bred woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot upon the ground because she is so delicate and tender, will grudge to the husband of her bosom, to her son and to her daughter,
    [57] her afterbirth that comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears, because she will eat them secretly, for want of all things, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in your towns.

    Jeremiah19:
    [8] And I will make this city a horror, a thing to be hissed at; every one who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss because of all its disasters.
    [9] And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and every one shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them.’

    Charming isn’t it?

  63. Molly, NYC says

    Phelps will be very lucky if god turns out to not exist. I don’t think he would be too happy with Fred.

    Indeed. The Phelpses say God sends “fags” (which they seems to define rather broadly) to a literal burning Hell. They don’t seem concerned about how God handles self-righteous twits who drive hundreds of miles to add to the misery of people who’ve just lost someone they love–and in God’s name too.

    Atheism would be an optimistic choice for these people.

  64. Brian Feathers says

    Hands down the scariest video I’ve ever seen.
    These people live among us. Think about that.

  65. jufulu, FCD says

    (IN his best Arthur Dent voice) jufulu said quite brightly, “Actually I quite liked it.”…”Oh yes, I thought that some of the metaphysical imagery was particularly effective.”
    To tell the truth I enjoyed the whole thing, it wasn’t until I started reading the comments that I realized who they were. I guess my mind was totally incapable of believing that they really meant it. Too, too strange.

  66. Ann says

    That tops off a perfect day! And I thought twelve and a half hours of Hospice nursing was rough, nope, not even close. That filth just makes me want to vomit.

  67. Ted Powell says

    Could this be part of what has them upset? It appears on many of their flyers:

    America bombed our church with an IED made by fag
    students at Washburn Univ. in Topeka. In His
    retaliatory wrath, God is killing Americans with
    Muslim IEDs: “Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and
    do my prophets no harm.” 1Chron. 16:22. “For it is
    written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the
    Lord.” Rom. 1219. A Sovereign God says: “See now
    that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I
    kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is
    there any that can deliver out of my hand.” Dt. 32:39.

    And just below that, this appears:

          We've turned America
               Over to fags;
          They're coming home
               In body bags.
  68. Rob the Lurker FCD BMWCCA says

    It’s funny. *slap* It’s disturbing. *slap* It’s funny. *slap* It’s disturbing. *slap* It’s funny and it’s disturbing.

  69. says

    >>He was the one who stopped the crowd from stoning an adultress to death…

    That’s actually a late 4th century addition to the Gospels. Most copies didn’t include this story. Though, certainly still gets added to the canon.

    I don’t think the not Jesusy enough objections are valid. The argument breaks down to, the Phelps aren’t cherry-picking the Bible to a large enough extent for the good things. Certainly they believe that “god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son” — However, that just makes the world’s betrayal of God that much worse. And that’s why God’s hate is so strong now. The Jesus message gets cleaned up a lot, but nothing they do is really that far away. They see them selves as Lot’s family standing in the sea of immorality in the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah.

    I think calling them evil is overly extreme. They don’t break any laws, and are very well protected by the first amendment. They non-violently protest utilizing their free speech to spread their religious message. Really, the only reason to conclude they are “evil” is because you disagree with the message. I actually think they are harmless.

    However, Biblically, their interpretation isn’t wrong. The only mistake they make is providing the Bible with undue respect (some). The more I look at their theology and what the Bible says… the more I think they are one of the most logical extrapolations of Biblical theology. Of course, that necessitates that they are completely bat-shit insane and advocate positions which no reasonable person could ever entertain even briefly.

    The Phelps are Christian. Other, moral Christians, are only moral in spite of their Christianity.

  70. says

    I don’t know many christians who wouldn’t claim they DON’T think that way, but presented with the issues side by side with some biblical quotes, they’d end up agreeing point by point. OK, 10 points for honesty… zero points for smarts.

  71. octopod says

    …We LOL’d.

    Are these people really for real?
    Also, what’s the original song they ripped off? I know I’ve heard it before somewhere.

  72. Arnosium Upinarum says

    Behold the face of mass insanity.

    How many examples this bleak must exist in (probably well-fortified) cubby holes in North America (let alone around the world) that haven’t exposed themselves in a video?

    I will hazard a guess: several thousands in the world; N. America alone probably constitutes at least half of them, with the US probably containing over 75% of that.

    Multiply that with the number of folks in this vid as a plausibly representative group (rough estimate, about 50, but maybe another similar number associated but not present in the vid = 100) and you get maybe upwards of a half million folks who are fanatically insane around the world, of which as many as 2/5 may reside in the US.

    Its only a guess for the sake of exercise. Give my crude numbers an error range of 75%, and the LOWER LIMIT is still extremely scary.

    This estimation does not count the very VERY much larger number of folks who appear to function day-to-day in passably “rational and loving ways” yet subscribe to their EQUALLY STRONG beliefs by PRECISELY THE SAME CRITERIA as these lunatics do…and you can see a big problem.

  73. bc says

    Well, I guess they want symmetry – the original “We are the World” was released as a way of raising money for AIDS in Africa. So, they used that as a way of saying that God hates the world. Kind of strange God they worship – because they are a part of the world, so God must hate them as well. Now, maybe that last thought isn’t so far off the mark . . .

  74. LeeLeeOne says

    As much as I loathe this pack of scumbags, this is one of the reasons you and I are still alive and on the web talking about this. It’s called the First Amendment to our Constitution of the United States. Don’t sweat the small stuff – this may or may not be “small” stuff, but as far as I am concerned, I wish a really super gutsy social worker or physician/psychiatrist or psychologist would see this video and determine if the parents are being responsible adults. If they determine there is a problem, child abuse (which I firmly believe there is!), it should be brought to the attention of those who investigate child abuse.

    Again, as much as I dislike these netherworld twats, I do like my freedom of speech. And, they have the right to “hate” me too.

    Wish the ACLU or American Atheists could do something about these idiots. Since we can’t take away their freedom to protest, their freedom of speech, perhaps a deep investigation into their finances to see if all is in order? hmmmmm?

  75. abeja says

    the original “We are the World” was released as a way of raising money for AIDS in Africa.

    The original “We Are The World” was released to raise money for the famine.

  76. raven says

    Could this be part of what has them upset? It appears on many of their flyers:

    America bombed our church with an IED made by fag
    students at Washburn Univ. in Topeka. In His
    retaliatory wrath, God is killing Americans with
    Muslim IEDs: “Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and
    do my prophets no harm.” 1Chron. 16:22. “For it is
    written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the
    Lord.” Rom. 1219. A Sovereign God says: “See now
    that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I
    kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is
    there any that can deliver out of my hand.” Dt. 32:39.

    Who knows what he is talking about. On face value, he is claiming that students from Washburn bombed his church. OK, did it happen? Got me. How does he know they were students from Washburn U.? Seems to me if they had an ID the cops would have picked them up for arson or something.

    So, assume students from Washburn did something. Wouldn’t the Sovereign God be able to figure it out and retaliate against them. I mean really, he is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent right. Should be a piece of cake for someone who can create a universe in 6 days.

    So Phelps claims that god is retaliating by killing US soldiers in Iraq. Rather unfair, because they didn’t do it. God’s got to be brighter than that.

    “For it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.” Rom. 1219.

    Pretty clear in the book. God is in charge of vengeance. So why is Phelps acting out then? Looks like a reading comprehension problem here.

    Just a nut with disordered thought processes. Guys like this are Dawkin’s and Harris’s best arguments.

  77. says

    Every time I see or hear of something from Phelps and company, I can’t help but wonder if they’re for real.

    No, it ain’t by any means that I can’t believe anyone can hate that much, or that it would be associated with a religion. That part, I buy. That part’s not incredible at all, actually…

    No. The part that’s incredible is that anyone would think actually saying, as openly as Phelps and company do, that that’s how they feel would get them anywhere they’d want to go.

    In that sense, there’s something almost definitively self-defeating about the whole business. I mean, right, picket the funerals of servicemen…. that’ll get you sympathetic ears. Rip off a well-meaning, cheesy charity anthem from the eighties and turn it into a nakedly hateful video about how your god hates the world… It’s almost like they’re consciously trying to disgust people, indeed, to generate the kind of disgust that motivates actual decency in human beings.

    Hell, I often wonder if, in fact, thanks to that phenomenon, Phelps might actually have done some good for the world. I mean, even if you did have a little latent uneasiness about gays and gay rights, I’d think just seeing the spectacle of these schmucks doing a funeral, it might just be enough to inspire you to march in the next pride parade available…

    I say all that, think, geez, could they, after all, be provocateurs? Could Phelps–who did, after all, once fight civil rights cases–and yes, on the right side–actually secretly be working for the causes of secularism and gay rights?

    And then I realize: no, ain’t bloody likely.

    See, I’m all for a world with less religion, and I’d be willing to bet, in their net effect, Phelps are probably good for that cause, too. Seems pretty unlikely it does any harm, anyway, having someone that perfectly repellent mouthing the fundies’ most repellent lines so openly unsubtly, and claiming his inspiration comes from the same deity as does theirs…

    But man, much as I’ve got my ruthless moments, there ain’t no way–not in my wildest, sickest dreams–I’d ever create something as disgusting as Phelps, no matter how much it might help my cause.

    Nope. That’s more than a little too far past wrong.

  78. MS says

    Ken from Kent said:

    “I think they hold the copyright for “You Are the World”. While I am a fan of ‘copyleft’ open source, I asked that they would sue these assholes to oblivion for clear copyright violation.”

    Don’t take this as authoritative, but I think that once a song has been recorded and released to the public anyone can record it as long as they pay the royalties. Plus there are copyright exceptions for parodies, and I think they could argue that this is a parody–not a good one, mind you, but that’s not a legal requirement. So if they do pay the royalties, they probably can’t be sued, at least not succesfully.

    On the other hand, if they don’t I wholeheartedly agree with you and hope they get sued for everything they own down to the tenth generation.

  79. says

    Maybe these guys are also good arguments for the sort of thing that happen when one or a few high testosterone males attempt to form a harem within a rigid, judgemental belief system. In order for the males to maintain their relative monopoly on their females, they must maintain their authority within the group. Since their authority depends in large part upon their representation of their beliefs, they must demonize the rest of the world in the strongest possible terms.

    To put it another way, the writer above who suggested it would be interesting to learn how many children Phelps has fathered is probably on the right track.

  80. Dutch Vigilante says

    Hmmm, kids.

    How about we atheists create such a song?

    “There is no god, there are no spirits.
    To think you have a soul is just quite silly,
    You are ingorant, you’ve wasted your whole life,
    believing in a magic man, high in the clouds.”

    Come on lads, we can beat these nuts!

  81. Fifi says

    PZ,

    So you don’t despair of humankind, check this out:

    “Supertheory Of Supereverything” by Gogol Bordello

    There is hope, there is hope.

  82. Bill Dauphin says

    How about we atheists create such a song?

    Or just use the perfectly good one we already have:

    Imagine there’s no heaven,
    It’s easy if you try:
    No hell below us;
    Above us only sky…

  83. Marc Whitaker says

    Fundamentalists understand the situation better than moderate Christians. If the Bible is the true inspired word of God, then they are correct, and we should all be shaking in our boots, at the mercy of the monstrous God of the Old Testament. If, on the other hand, the Bible is not to be taken literally, then Christianity falls like a house of cards. If Genesis is not literally true, if there was no garden, no serpent, no original sin, then there was nothing for Jesus to save us from, no point to His coming, no debt to be paid.

    Likewise, if Jesus did not actually die upon a cross and rise into the sky after being well and truly dead exactly as the New Testament says, then Christianity is a sham. A wandering Jewish preacher spreading wisdom cannot be the basis for the Christianity preached. Only the death in atonement for original sin and resurrection to heaven gives any meaning to Christianity.

    Any “moderate” Christian who surrenders either of these two points surrenders Christianity, lock stock and barrel.
    If the Bible is anywhere fallible, then it is everywhere suspect unless strong supporting evidence is found. Lacking this supporting evidence, the moderate who takes any part of the Bible to be allegorical has surrendered Christianity as a whole. He’s just to timid to follow with his emotions where his thinking mind has already gone.

  84. trcarroll says

    This video has me reconsidering my , otherwise strong , position on the first and second admendments .

    Is this the same group that had their ass’ handed to them protesting a funeral in E Ky ?

  85. says

    >>So Phelps claims that god is retaliating by killing US soldiers in Iraq. Rather unfair, because they didn’t do it. God’s got to be brighter than that.

    You honestly think that drowning the entire world in the story of Noah’s Ark shows some kind of compassion for innocents. If anything, the preoccupation is to declare them all wicked and kill them all. We also have the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and various demands for genocides against entire peoples throughout the Bible. The God of the Bible is really that stupid. He’s really that evil and that homicidal and genocidal. He is, as Richard Dawkins notes, the most unpleasant character in all of fiction.

  86. says

    the original “We are the World” was released as a way of raising money for AIDS in Africa.

    The original “We Are The World” was released to raise money for the famine.

    The really weird thing that probably will chap the giblets of Rev. Phelps is that the song We Are The World was co-written by Michael Jackson.

    Now, there’s a copyright battle I’d pay money to see in court.

  87. Mena says

    What a charming family…
    I also think that they are going to do a Heaven’s Gate when Grandpa/Dad Phelps shuffles off the mortal coil.

  88. Caledonian says

    The Phelps clan are pitiful and terrifying – but you really, really don’t want to start making claims of child abuse. Our child welfare services work poorly enough as it is, and organized attempts to wield them as a tool against things subsets of the society disapproves of will cause far more damage than it could ever prevent, in the long run.

    And no, this isn’t child abuse.

  89. shewie says

    Hmm. I don’t know why people keep referring to the “secular song” that it rips off – I seem to recall that the original “We are the world” contains the lines “We are all a part of God’s great big family” and “As God has shown us by turning stone to bread”…

  90. says

    I think I can cast some light on the “God hates the world” thing, based on my experience with the Pentecostal fundamentalism of my mother’s family.

    “The World” means the physical world as opposed to the spiritual world. For the Pentecostal fundamentalist, the world is something you have to set yourself apart from. For my mother’s family, this meant not reading “worldly books,” listening to “worldly music,” or watching television. What is a worldly book? Well, a romance novel, a Stephen King mystery, a science fiction novel… basically anything fictional. Worldly music is any music that isn’t gospel music. They probably wouldn’t have a problem with classical music written to glorify God, but I doubt any of them ever listen to classical music.

    Television is right out. Put one of them in a room with a television that’s on and they’ll go sit or stand next to the television facing outward so there’s no chance they might glance at the screen.

    Oh, and the way women dress — they aren’t allowed to wear makeup or jewelry. The women aren’t allowed to cut their hair. All the women wear their hair up in buns. They wear ankle-length dresses and their sleeves come down to the wrists. They have to wear these dresses in all situations. I remember my cousin trying to join us boys in a swimming pool in one of those dresses. She gave up because she couldn’t stop it from ballooning as she tried to ease herself into the water. There are no swimsuits for women in Pentecostal fundamentalism.

    There are rules for how men have to dress and wear their hair, too. But I wasn’t wearing long pants in that swimming pool. My hair was always too long according to them, but other than that it wasn’t difficult to meet the standards of dress for a male. I guess all you need to know is that when a man goes for a swim in the swimming pool, he can put on a pair of swimming trunks, while the women have to worry about their ankle-length dresses “ballooning.”

    The women in the video have buns on the backs of their heads, but they look too small to me. I think these women are cutting their hair, which means God hates them too. That’s what my grandmother would say, anyway.

    Well, no, she wouldn’t. For all their weird and strict beliefs, my mother’s family’s church would never claim that God hated anybody. He’s gonna fry almost all of us, but he loves us. They’re always respectful and polite when dealing with those of us headed for eternal damnation, just like Jesus said they should be.

  91. Oh, fishy, fishy, fishy, fish! says

    Hey, some of those girls are cute!

    Do you think one of them will marry me? I always wanted a nice Christian girl.

    By the way, Theroux’s documentary was OK, he made one of the girls blush! It was sooo cute!

    Have I said “cute” too many times?

  92. MAJeff says

    In 1994, I went to the NGLTF’s Creating Change Conference in Dallas. The Phelps clan protested our hotel. A friend and I were coming back to the hotel after dinner. We ran upstairs to get our cameras, but they were gone by then. I wanted a picture with Freddie.

    The next time I saw the family was at Cambridge City Hall on May 16, 2004–when marriage equality arrive in the Bay State. Fred wasn’t along that time, and the three ladies who were holding up signs seemed kind of sedated in the face of 10,000 celebrating people.

  93. Tex says

    Is it just me, or does this video make anyone else think that if these folks could get laid, their whole attitude might improve?

    I am definitely not volunteering for the job, though.

  94. says

    Is it just me, or does this video make anyone else think that if these folks could get laid, their whole attitude might improve?

    Ewwwe! Now I’m going to have nightmares!

  95. says

    “Is it just me, or does this video make anyone else think that if these folks could get laid, their whole attitude might improve?”

    Ewwwe! Now I’m going to have nightmares!

  96. says

    I knew it was real from the beginning – once you’ve seen Shirley Roper’s frightful visage, you never forget it. I have wondered before what the WBS hopes to accomplish, and this video didn’t help to answer that. It just looks like we’re damned to hell for all eternity no matter what. We lost our chance, nothing we can do. So. . .we’re supposed to stop sinning or something? Why bother?

  97. Meret says

    So it’s safe to assume Fred and the gang missed the whole “judge not, lest ye be judged” bit, huh?

    Poor little kid. Makes me think of those old videos of KKK rallies with children and babies in the crowd, and all that hatred and vitriol pumped through them every waking hour. Poor little thing doesn’t have a chance.

  98. says

    Wow, that’s a lot of douchebaggery in a 5 minute clip.

    The more I see of the Phelpslings, the more I think that they’re going to hit the papers – much sooner than later – as a Jim Jones-style mass suicide. They’re going to decide to leave this world to go to their heavenly reward, it’s just a matter of time.

  99. Robert Madewell says

    I thought it was funny until I realized that they weren’t joking. I just couldn’t watch the end where that little girl was forced to sing those hateful words. That wasn’t funny at all. Broke my heart.

  100. JamesR says

    WOW
    I am glad they are not Muslim and that suicide is an aberration to them. Can you imagine?
    And eating our children? They must have watched too much Fat Bastard.

  101. arachnophilia says

    not to sound trite, but:

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son…

    –John 3:16

    now, maybe i’m thinking of a different meaning of “christianity” than they are, but jesus. someone missed the fucking point.

  102. says

    >>By the way, Theroux’s documentary was OK, he made one of the girls blush! It was sooo cute!

    Yeah. I saw that. It was pretty cute. The kids remind me of the Amish. They are excluded from society by their religion and it’s a shame in and of itself.

  103. wm says

    Poor adults, marinating in their fermented brew of glee and hate. Poor kids, gasping for air in the same foul brew. I wish that there was some kind of God that could save these people from themselves.

  104. woozy says

    # 37 (and others who have asked about deathbed conversions and god so loved the world)

    Christians believe in a series of the state of the world and Gods love of the people in it:

    1) In the garden there was no sin; God loved everyone; everyone was saved.
    2) After the fall to cruxifiction of Christ: God had hopes for mankind and loved the few who could absolve their sins by righteous living and retribution. If man’s sins got too bad he’d have to wipe people in huge numbers and have them start again
    3) Because people kept sinning and couldn’t help it and God really didn’t want to keep wiping people out and sending them to hell and he loooooooved us, he gave us a great loophole. He killed his son to take on the burden of our sins so we can absolve our sins by simply loving him back. Thus deathbed conversions and so forth and God no longer needs to occasionally wipe us out to start afresh…
    *BUT* we shouldn’t abuse this loophole because …..
    4) “The final days”: We miserable people keep sinning and sinning that we pass the “fail-safe” point of the great loophole and we can no longer absolve ourselves in Jesus’ name. God abandons the world and brings on armagedon. And wipes us out for the last and final time.

    Now clearly these wackos believe we already are in the final days. The end *isn’t* coming; it’s already here.

    But if so, what *is* the point of prostletizing? Why say “Thank God for 9/11” when no good comes of it as we aren’t being “warned” or “cleansed” or given an opportunity to start over; we are being wiped out.

    Oh, well….

  105. says

    Poor adults, marinating in their fermented brew of glee and hate. Poor kids, gasping for air in the same foul brew. I wish that there was some kind of God that could save these people from themselves.

    agreed. it broke my heart to hear them singing so joyfully about hatred. especially that little kid… there’s few things i despise more in the world than this kind of indoctrination.

    as other people have said, i can’t express how much this appals me.

    Lepht

  106. Oh, fishy, fishy, fishy, fish! says

    For those who haven’t got enough of these lovely people, check out the aforementioned Louis Theroux documentary: “The Most Hated Family in America”. I’m pretty sure it’s still doing the torrents round. At one point during their hate speech, we see a car drive by and hit one of the little boys with a big cup full of soda… talk about not knowing what to feel! Sorry for the kid, glad that he got slapped; hoping that it wasn’t a cup, but a big 2-liter bottle, and it wasn’t the kid’s face, but the grandma’s…

  107. O-dot-O says

    In the video’s collage of faces, who is the guy with the horns?

    I think I see…

    Bush
    Cheney
    Rumsfeld
    Colin Powell
    Tony Blair
    Kofi Annon
    Bin Laden
    The Pope
    Billy Graham
    Jerry Falwell
    Pat Robertson
    Michael Jackson
    Michael Moore
    Larry King
    Oprah
    Ellen
    Matt Lauer (?)
    Martin Luther King
    Mother Teresa

    … Who else?

  108. Carlie says

    I was always taught that sin made god sad, not angry. If he hates me, then why should I even bother? Fine, then I hate him too.

    That video is marginally better with the sound off and Weird Al’s “Don’t download this song” superimposed on top of it. But only marginally.

  109. Justin Moretti says

    I got to “…see your soldiers dying…” and I clicked stop.

    These are disgusting, evil creatures, and their children are indeed victims of abuse.

    Whatever happened to Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and love your neighbour as you do yourself?

    I say fuck to their disgusting religion. This is not Christianity. I don’t know what it is, but it isn’t Christianity.

  110. MAJeff says

    I say fuck to their disgusting religion. This is not Christianity. I don’t know what it is, but it isn’t Christianity.

    Yes, yest it is.

  111. Caledonian says

    If you recognize Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodoxy to be forms of Christianity, so must you recognize this. It involves picking and choosing as much as they do – it just emphasizes the things that the others tend to downplay.

    ALL Christianity is as offensive as the Phelps’ version. You just don’t let yourselves acknowledge it.

  112. Gerrit says

    I had to read up to reaction #18 to find someone who shares my assumption that this is “an exercise in irony”.
    But being a (continental) European I’m probably not well placed to detect telltale signs of satire your side of the ocean.

  113. Fernando Magyar says

    Thank god for people like Mark Morford, eh? Someone should send these lovely people a copy of his article titled Who Loves Designer Vaginas? What’s really sad is that these people come accross as being very frightened of a world that is rather quickly leaving them behind in the dust.

  114. abeja says

    This is not Christianity. I don’t know what it is, but it isn’t Christianity.

    More often than not, someone drags out this absolutely MORONIC defense to Christianity. The Phelps clan considers JC to be the son of god, do they not? Then they’re xtians.

  115. Ex-drone says

    If it really is “too late to change His mind,” then why don’t they just sit back in smug satisfaction and stop offending my ears?

  116. Ian Gould says

    Muslims; Mormons; Raelians and followers of Cao Dai also believe Christ is the Son of God. That doesn’t make them Christians.

    Now I was raised an atheist and am ethnically Jewish but I have to point out that all the mainstream Christian denominations insist that Christ created a new covenant between Man and God which superceded the Old Testament law and rendered it, as Yarrer Arafat might have said, “caduc”.

    That being the case, Christians don’t believe the Levitical laws still apply.

  117. says

    As a veteran, back in the day, of a number of chirpy little choirs like that singing chirpy little ditties about Jesus-loves-the-whole-world etc, that video seriously creeps me out. It’s kind of like a sick parody of all that — except of course that these head-cases really mean it.

    As long as we’re predicting the future, here’s mine: Fred’s getting on and will probably be gone within 10 years. I predict the cult will disintegrate once he kicks the bucket. Unless he’s designated an heir apparent (and everything I’ve read about him suggests that he’s too much of an egotistical control-freak to have done so — your successor is an implicit rival), it will split into factions and/or members will just drift away, once his influence is gone. (Which doesn’t rule out the possibility that some of the factions will become more extreme and wind up shooting it out with the cops).

  118. Tex says

    That being the case, Christians don’t believe the Levitical laws still apply.

    Not quite. Two Levitical laws still specifically apply to Christians as detailed in Acts 15 and supported in later text. They are (1) not to eat meat that has been offered to idols or still has blood in it (the basis for some sects refusing transfusions) and (2)the sexual taboos. It is this second bit that seems to disturb Brother Phelps and his followers. Paul reinforces the importance of sexual purity (abstenince is best, but if you can’t do that, for god’s sake at least get married) in several later books (esp. I Corinthians). The Phelpsians are on solid theological ground (if there ever could be such a thing) in their beliefs.

  119. BK says

    Jeesh. Who cares? Relevant as cigarette butt or a losing lottery ticket. Although cigarette butts are better looking and old lottery tickets are more interesting.

  120. blah says

    Whatever happened to Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and love your neighbour as you do yourself?

    What, exactly, leads you to believe anything but that these people loathe themselves?

  121. blah says

    And eating our children? They must have watched too much Fat Bastard.

    No, actually they have read too much of the Bible.

    That’s in there. Multiple times, in fact.

    I am always amazed by the lack of knowledge that the typical Christian has about the book that they claim to be the word of their god. So many of them (unlike the Phelps clan) just have this vague feelgood notion of their god, that is almost completely at odds with the (purportedly) actual words of their god, which are often, frankly, abhorrent.

    In the words of George Bernard Shaw, “No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.”

  122. CalGeorge says

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

    Then the gays came along and God changed his mind.

    “I hate you, I hate you!” he said.

    The meany.

  123. Christina says

    fanatics… any true Christ believing individual can see how twisted these people are…didn’t Christ say do onto others as you would want them to do onto you, love thy neighbor etc…

  124. woozy says

    #139

    well… That’s rather bad but its more like name-calling and gloating which I guess I find less disturbing then the absolute *sincerity* of the “God hates the world” sentiment. And in that one, they didn’t abuse any cute little toddlers.

    Note: http://www.godhatesamerica.com. They despised Jerry Falwell because Falwell was too tolerant and preached love.

    … cookoo … cookoo…

  125. says

    Why the fuck dont we take the same initiative the iraqi suicide bombers do and wipe these fucks out?

    we’re all going to hell anyway according to them, so why not enjoy the rest of our life we have and kill them all?

  126. lifeofliberty says

    Sick. These people are sick in the head. The very God they claim to know and worship is the very God they claim made the world, with all the good AND evil in it.

    Mentally disturbed. Preaching their desert cults of death and hatred of all things. If any are going to rot in hell, it will be these hypocrites. They are, after all, the people that “God hates”.

    Or are they so deluded to believe that they are “righteous”? There is NONE righteous, no NOT ONE. I can preach circles around these fools. But I know the source of their delusions.

  127. abeja says

    Muslims; Mormons; Raelians and followers of Cao Dai also believe Christ is the Son of God. That doesn’t make them Christians.

    Muslims don’t believe jesus was the son of god, and Mormons are christians. But that third one, Cao Dai, is one I hadn’t heard of before. Yep, they believe jc is the son of god, and nope, they don’t appear to consider themselves to be xtians. And perhaps there are more religions out there like that.

    People can argue all day about what the definition of xtianity is–since so many sects interpret the bible in so many different ways, it’s really no surprise that different xtians have different definitions of xtianity. Some don’t consider other jesus followers to be xtians if they haven’t been “born again”, and some say jesus followers aren’t xtians if they don’t consider the bible inerrant. But the definition of a xtian is not “one who tolerates gays”, “one who doesn’t teach their kid nasty songs”, or “one who is not an evil hatemonger”. The person who claims that the Phelps family is not xtian seems to base their opinion on the fact that the Phelps family are a clan of evil hatemongers who can’t stand gays and teach their kids nasty songs. That alone doesn’t make them non-xtians.

  128. says

    cureholder:

    There’s a line in the bible (psalm 137) blessing the people who would take the hebrews’ children by the ankles and dash their heads against rocks (so they wouldn’t have to suffer the indignity of growing up under an oppressive people who weren’t god’s chosen).

    I’m afraid you’ve got it wrong: Psalm 137 says that he is (or should be) happy who dashes the Babylonians’ children’s heads against rocks, in repayment of what the Babylonians did to the Israelites.

  129. says

    Christina:

    Christ also said he brought not peace, but a sword (Matthew 10:34). In the next breath, he promised to “set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.” In the original Greek, it’s clear that the purpose of Christ is to bring conflict; the conflict isn’t just a consequence of one family member accepting the Word and another refusing. Luke 14:26 goes even further: “Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.”

    Your common-or-garden apologist is naturally trained in softening the blow of these passages; however, all of their rhetorical tricks ignore the obvious meaning of the passages and/or bring up whole new problems with the “love passages.”

    And, of course, “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (1 Peter 1:21).

    Oh, and don’t forget this part:

    Honor everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

    Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh.

    For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. (1 Peter 2:17–19)

    Hector Avalos writes,

    In sum, Christianity, if it is meant to be a religion based on the New Testament, does not endorse a love open to all. Love was still primarily meant for other Christians. Christianity simply substituted creedal adherence for genealogical identity as basis for receiving love. Those who believe in Christ will receive eternal love. Those who do not believe will receive an eternal torture in a fiery lake. When authors portray Jesus as instructing his followers to love their enemies on earth, this instruction was premised on the idea that violence would be applied by Jesus at a later time on behalf of wronged followers. No New Testament or early Christian writer can be found who believes in complete nonviolence, and all can be seen to believe in a sort of deferred violence.

    (Fighting Words, p. 230.)

    Tertullian’s violent rhetoric shows again what many of these supposedly pacifistic writers have in mind: a temporary and tactical cessation of hostilities, much like Clausewitz envisions in his dictum that politics is war by other means. We can make similar arguments for most New Testament and early Christian authors who are often described as pacifists. These authors or characters usually advocate deferred violence, not nonviolence. Their vision of peace is always envisioned as being finalized under the absolute leadership of the Christian god. It is as hegemonic as anything envisioned by Clausewitz.

    (ibid, p. 233.)

  130. Loller Skates says

    The child looks clearly inbred, which we know all the Phelps family is. Here eyes are spaced about 10 inches apart. I guess that’s part of “God’s plan” though.

  131. woozy says

    I had made the mistake in assuming that the point of preaching and making these times of videos were to somehow affect the listner’s belief by either coaxing them into the fold or scaring and shaming them into the fold. But that somehow the preacher was doing it for the listener’s sake.

    This
    http://www.thesignsofthetimes.net/specialav/2007/20070420_stb.html

    ( from comment #137)
    made me realize that this folks have no such intentions and don’t think that they have any such intentions. They just want to piss people off and gloat at god’s wrath on us. Their intent of the video *isn’t* to inform us of God’s mission, but to say “Nyah, Nyah, Nyah” and laugh at us to our faces.

    Oddly, that makes me feel better.

  132. says

    I’m probably going to be pilloried for saying this, but some of the comments here show no sense of proportion. Yes, sure, you can quote-mine the Bible to come up with examples of horrific behaviour, some of it supposedly endorsed by Big Sky Daddy, and that doubtless provides Phelps and his clan fuel for their fire.

    But does anyone really believe the central message of the Bible is ‘God hates fags’? That seems doubtful. Regardless of one’s opinion of the Bible’s merits, Phelps and his family ‘church’ hold a highly distorted caricature of scripture. Their hateful publicity stunts are not intended as meaningful engagement with those with different beliefs, but to demonize the rest of the world in order to promote group solidarity. I submit that there really is something profoundly un-Christlike in Phelps’ behavior and I can think of no more eloquent expression of that than the following letter penned by his own son to a Kansas newspaper:

    (From: http://cjonline.com/webindepth/phelps/stories/080394_phelps03.shtml)

    “Many people have been asking me, over the past several weeks, about my father. They want to know what I think about him and ‘What is he really like?’ People’s interest in what I think baffles me, but after careful consideration, I decided to respond.

    What is he like? Well, it’s been 19 years since I left home, but his behavior still appears to be the same. He considers his environment to be against him without admitting, acknowledging or taking responsibility for how he contributes to that. He likes to show himself as being moral, pro-family, pro-Bible, but his actions just don’t add up to that. I believe in God and the Bible, and my father’s behavior doesn’t fit the description of behavior that would show in the life of one who loves God; behavior characteristics such as Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, Self-control. Instead, my father’s behavior characterizes, I believe, Hate, Outbursts of Wrath, Contention, Jealousy, Vengefulness, Misery, Harshness, and Selfish ambition. He mis-states the truth about his own behavior, about others, about the Bible, with apparent ease and regularity. He behaves with a viciousness the likes of which I have never seen. He accepts no genuine accountability in his life and is subject to no one. His lifestyle betrays the sacred trust of what a pastor, husband, father and grandfather should be. I suppose if a comparison were made between the life of Jesus Christ and my father, there would not be much to compare.

    I also realize that my father is a very unstable person who is determined to hurt people. And because he is so bound to be hateful and hurtful, and because he’s so untrustworthy, I believe it’s a good idea to respond to him with caution much like the caution used when dealing with a rattlesnake or a mad dog. You see, the causes that he crusades for, including the Bible, are not the issue here. He simply wants to hate and to have a forum for his hate. If the causes he focuses on were the issue, that is, if they really meant something to him in his heart and he meant for the things he does to be for the good, his behavior would not be what it is. He would not betray his message with his behavior. But, when he needs to, to vent his hate, he readily goes outside the bounds of any previously stated ‘value’ or ’cause’ he may have supported. He experiences no moral dilemma when it comes to doing what he wants to do. If it weren’t the homosexuals, it would be something else.

    Yet checks and balances on his behavior are appropriate, on the part of the community, in order to at least confine his destructive behaviors and to limit his influence. I believe that Topekans are making a good effort to try and stop him and should continue to do so. He can seem very intimidating. He can use foul language and come across with a booming voice to the community, but the truth is, like the Wizard of Oz, when Toto pulls the curtain back, instead of this big powerful individual, it’s only a small, pathetic old man.

    I feel sorry for my father as I would for anyone who displays this kind of hate and evil viciousness. These can only be the manifestations of tortured, injured and agonizing souls.”

  133. Michael says

    HAHAHAHAHAH! No DUDE!

    THIS WAS EFFING HILARIOUS:

    You’ll all face a fiery death
    So just stop it!

    – I’m convinced –

    HAHAHAHAHAHA!

  134. says

    I’m probably going to be pilloried for saying this,…I submit that there really is something profoundly un-Christlike in Phelps’ behavior…

    Scott, you know better than to trot out no true Scottsman, just as you know you deserve at least 30 lashes with His Noodly Appendage. Really, has anybody ever accused any member of the Phelps hate cult of being Christlike?

    If Phelps says he’s a Christian, I have to take him at his word. If his behavior is extreme among Christians, his attitudes toward his favorite targets are not rare enough among those who use the Bible to justify their beliefs. You may notice it’s his flavor of Xtianity being pandered to in America by an unsettling preponderance of its politicans, while your flavor of hand-wringing well-meaning liberal piety is, at best, paid mere lip service. Sure glad I don’t have to be an apologist for such a sullied and putrid brand as Christianity.

  135. Jim says

    Okay… one of those signs says “My sex life: better anal than banal”. Isn’t it pronounced “bah-NAHL”? It doesn’t rhyme, man.

  136. Anton Mates says

    Yes, sure, you can quote-mine the Bible to come up with examples of horrific behaviour, some of it supposedly endorsed by Big Sky Daddy, and that doubtless provides Phelps and his clan fuel for their fire.

    Quote-mine how? When the Bible has God just flat-out say “Do [horrible thing X], or I’ll do [horrible thing Y] to you,” it’s hardly quote-mining to repeat that. Quote-mining would be, say, quoting a passage on Herod’s slaughter of the infants and implying that God endorsed it. Or treating a parable as if the writers meant it to be history.

    But does anyone really believe the central message of the Bible is ‘God hates fags’?

    I don’t think the Bible has a central message. But large parts of it carry the message that God hates anyone who violates the social norms he laid down, which included prohibitions of homosexuality.

    I don’t think that’s true of the New Testament, though. Paul condemns homosexuality here and there, but Paul condemns just about everything; and Jesus just seems to be down on sex in general.

    I submit that there really is something profoundly un-Christlike in Phelps’ behavior

    According to the Gospels, Christ called his philosophical opponents vipers and hypocrites, took a whip to the moneylenders, and cursed a fig tree to death for not bearing fruit out of season. If Revelation is even metaphorically correct, Christ will murder most of the world’s population before returning to finish the job and send everyone he disapproves of to Hell. Seems awfully Phelpsish to me.

    I would agree that Phelps behaves nothing like the way Christ exhorted his followers to behave–among other things, he doesn’t turn the other cheek, he doesn’t refrain from verbal abuse and he hasn’t sold all his possessions and given the money to the poor. But Christ was big on “Do as I say, not as I do.”

  137. Mr. X says

    These people are just as sane as anyone else who believes in the magical fairytales of the Bible, Koran, or any other set of myths and folk stories from Ye Olde Times.

  138. Warbler says

    Dahan, by your logic, any means of raising a child is child abuse. While filling a child with a hatred for people is certainly wrong, you make very little sense. I can make the same claims on science being taught to children. The child can’t yet “challenge” (in your words) the stuff he’s being taught. That’s quite a lousy world view you have.

    I haven’t bothered reading all of your stupid posts, because it is simply so sad and unfortunate that you are no different than these crazies that you like to pull out of nowhere to construct straw men for your “arguments.” The ignorance among you is profoundly disturbing. This “religion vs science” garbage is getting old and tired (yes, it is a historically very recent idea, but it’s pretty clear, at least to me, that backwards ways of thinking like yours can very quickly become old and tired). I suggest reading a bit up on the origins of science, why science only achieved its full fruition in the West (that is, Europe) instead of stagnating elsewhere. Perhaps then you will have a better appreciation for the philosophical foundations and origins of science, its impetus, its limits, etc. Until then, try to refrain from making stupid assertions in the style of Dan Brown.

  139. JimBakker says

    Whats with all the debate and bible quoting/arguing here? The bible is crap….and these people are fools. End of story. Next.

  140. ckerst says

    These people are what’s known as walkaways, when god was handing out brains a few souls walked away and never got any.

  141. cj says

    That kid at the end looks retarded…like her mother and father are brother and sister retarded.

  142. Seouliam says

    I didn’t laugh while seeing this

    It’s just another group of persons that have been influenced by a prticular culture and have grown up an old in a certain way

    I find this great to be in the same world with people that different from anything I’ve seen

    Does God hate the world? I don’t know

    But I know they seem so happy to sing this song

    So convinced thzt we’re all going to hell

    They’re so satisfied

    Good for them

    Let it be, Let it be, Let it be, Let it beeeeeeeee

  143. says

    Anton Mates replies to Scott Hatfield:

    Quote-mine how? When the Bible has God just flat-out say “Do [horrible thing X], or I’ll do [horrible thing Y] to you,” it’s hardly quote-mining to repeat that. Quote-mining would be, say, quoting a passage on Herod’s slaughter of the infants and implying that God endorsed it. Or treating a parable as if the writers meant it to be history.
    But does anyone really believe the central message of the Bible is ‘God hates fags’?

    I don’t think the Bible has a central message….

    At the risk of hijacking Scott’s point: that’s the point, isn’t it? If the Bible has no central message, then any such claim can only be supported by what amounts to quote-mining – cherry-picking which passages to emphasize, which to allegorize, and which to ignore. But some posters on this thread (Tex for one) have stated they think Phelps’ hermeneutic is right on the money. I assert that Phelps has simply chosen the parts that feed his own pathology. He is no more (though arguably no less, either) “correct” than your average accept-everyone marry-the-gays feed-the-poor liberal church.

  144. moogle301 says

    CCP – i think ‘her people’ was refering to earth’s people. so he (god) hates the world and her (earth’s) people.
    it does make sense (grammatically) but is not a nice song in any other terms. why would they follow a god who is apprently so mean?? cowards!!
    and if god made ppl, why would he make some gay and then hate those who followed this instinct? unles he was mean? unless there is hmosexuality in all of use and they are the only ‘sinner’s who follow it. but then, not everyone wants to follow it, unless the pehlp’s are saying they are closet homosexuals. it makes no sense!

  145. Christopher says

    These fools on the video and all of us would do a very good service to each other and our planet if we just stopped taking ourselves oh so seriously..

    Wake up and smell the roses, with all of our science and faith, we still don’t know much about anything.. and if we do, we sure as hell have not proved it yet. :)

  146. Anton Mates says

    At the risk of hijacking Scott’s point: that’s the point, isn’t it? If the Bible has no central message, then any such claim can only be supported by what amounts to quote-mining – cherry-picking which passages to emphasize, which to allegorize, and which to ignore. But some posters on this thread (Tex for one) have stated they think Phelps’ hermeneutic is right on the money.

    But the latter claim doesn’t conflict with the former. Tex, so far as I can see, hasn’t claimed, that “God hates gays” is the central message of the Bible…merely that it is a message found prominently in the Bible, which it certainly is. You don’t need to cherry-pick to see that; it’s repeated several times, occurs in both Testaments, and to my knowledge is never contradicted. Lots of Biblical messages are vague, metaphorical or contradicted elsewhere; not this one.

    Scott’s the one claiming that the Bible has a central message, and a sufficiently coherent one for us to conclude that Phelps’ version of Christianity is off the mark: “Phelps and his family ‘church’ hold a highly distorted caricature of scripture.” I don’t think that’s the case. Phelps’ interpretation is no more distorted than most Christians’; he simply picked unusual parts of scripture to focus on.

    I assert that Phelps has simply chosen the parts that feed his own pathology. He is no more (though arguably no less, either) “correct” than your average accept-everyone marry-the-gays feed-the-poor liberal church.

    I agree with that. To be more precise, I would say that Phelps is about as consistent in obeying the Bible’s moral precepts as the average liberal church (taking into account that their Bibles are probably different translations). I think he’s somewhat more Christlike than the average liberal Christian–that is, more willing to viciously assault his opponents and revel in their suffering. But he’s somewhat less like what Christ said his followers should be, since he’s not very big on pacifism and charity.

  147. Tex says

    But some posters on this thread (Tex for one) have stated they think Phelps’ hermeneutic is right on the money. I assert that Phelps has simply chosen the parts that feed his own pathology.

    True, but the parts he has chosen are the big ones. God completely wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah for their tolerance of homosexuality. He even had Lot, the one righteous man in town, offer his two virgin daughters to get them to stop. (It is not really clear how virtuous this family was, anyway, since Lot’s wife directly disobeyed God, and Lot’s daughters got him drunk and seduced him.)

    There are probably close to one hundred commandments given to Moses in Leviticus, including killing homosexuals and people who violated other sexual taboos. Almost all of these commandments were later revoked by church elders in the New Testament. Which ones did they retain for Christians to follow? Those that dealt with sex and eating meat offered to idols, from animals that had been strangled, or that still had blood in it (again, see Acts, chapter 15.)

    So, yes, since Phelps is not making a big deal out of rare roast beef, I guess he is picking his parts.

    As Sam Harris points out in The End of Faith, it is ‘your average accept-everyone marry-the-gays feed-the-poor liberal church’ who are perverting the well-documented intentions of a Bronze-Age tribal god.

  148. Tex says

    What Anton said …

    I took a break while composing my previous comment and did not see Anton’s reply until mine posted.

  149. Kseniya says

    Wow. The once-great Von Crapp Family Singers have really gone down the toilet. I used to really admire them, what with their heroic Alpine escape from Austria during World War II and everything.

    Sad.

    I take comfort in knowing that the WBC is nothing more than an isolated collection of contemptible, soul-sick lunatics. I take no comfort in knowing that some of its beliefs are shared by a significant percentage of the voting public.

    Boston Gay Pride parade was June 9th. I marched. I didn’t see a single “God Hates…” tee or sign. Strange, huh?

    The clip of the girl at the end was truly sickening. I despair for her.

  150. Owlmirror says

    God completely wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah for their tolerance of homosexuality.

    Hm, no.

    No reason is ever explicitly said, just that they were wicked. While a large portion of the population of Sodom did demand that Lot give over his (male) guests (who were actually messengers of God), and the idiom they used implied that the men would be raped, well, that’s no more “tolerance of homosexuality” than heterosexual rape is marriage.

    Later commentary suggests that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for inhospitality.

    He even had Lot, the one righteous man in town, offer his two virgin daughters to get them to stop.

    Not quite.

    Lot’s offer of his daughters was of his own choice, not God’s promptings. And it wasn’t to make the people of Sodom stop tolerating homosexuality; it was to make the rape-threateners go away.

  151. Anton Mates says

    As Sam Harris points out in The End of Faith, it is ‘your average accept-everyone marry-the-gays feed-the-poor liberal church’ who are perverting the well-documented intentions of a Bronze-Age tribal god.

    But the second half of the Bible switches to describing the intentions of a urbanized, Hellenized Iron-Age god, so that’s not exactly their fault. Jesus was pretty big on caring for the poor, even if he occasionally kept a scented unguent or two for himself.

    I don’t think liberal Christians pervert the intentions of the Old Testament God significantly more than fundamentalists pervert those of the God of the New Testament. To be maximally faithful to both, you’d probably need to be a homophobic, sexually puritanical, kosher, pacifist socialist, and there just aren’t that many of them around.

    Or you can take the fun way out and assume that the Old Testament guy’s a demiurge.

  152. Anton Mates says

    Later commentary suggests that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for inhospitality.

    At least two reasons are given in the Bible. Ezekiel says, “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.” Jude says, “Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” I’m not sure how you reconcile those if you’re a literalist, but I’d imagine most fundies would side with Jude, he being a Christian and all. Ezekiel’s just a pagan blessed with divine inspiration and/or a yen for mushrooms.

    Incidentally, Phelps does say that homosexuality isn’t the only problem: “The only lawful sexual connection is the marriage bed. All other sex activity is whoremongery and adultery, which will damn the soul forever in Hell.” He claims to focus on homosexuality because gay rights are so popular in our depraved modern society.

  153. Karen says

    This is awful. I feel so bad for that little girl. She doesn’t even know what she’s singing about now, but she’ll almost certainly grow up to be a horrible, hateful person because of her family.

  154. woozy(except me, of course. I'm *very* equally smart) says

    #171

    Incidentally, Phelps does say that homosexuality isn’t the only problem: “The only lawful sexual connection is the marriage bed. All other sex activity is whoremongery and adultery, which will damn the soul forever in Hell.” He claims to focus on homosexuality because gay rights are so popular in our depraved modern society.

    … then let the effin’ gays get married! End of f@*#in’ problem, sheesh! Do I have to solve *everything* for these guys?!

    #155

    These people are just as sane as anyone else who believes in the magical fairytales of the Bible, Koran, or any other set of myths and folk stories from Ye Olde Times.

    I don’t think all christian are equally sane, any more than I believe all athiests are equally smart.

  155. woozy(except me, of course. I'm *very* equally smart) says

    #171

    Incidentally, Phelps does say that homosexuality isn’t the only problem: “The only lawful sexual connection is the marriage bed. All other sex activity is whoremongery and adultery, which will damn the soul forever in Hell.” He claims to focus on homosexuality because gay rights are so popular in our depraved modern society.

    … then let the effin’ gays get married! End of f@*#in’ problem, sheesh! Do I have to solve *everything* for these guys?!

    #155

    These people are just as sane as anyone else who believes in the magical fairytales of the Bible, Koran, or any other set of myths and folk stories from Ye Olde Times.

    I don’t think all christian are equally sane, any more than I believe all athiests are equally smart.

  156. Owlmirror says

    He claims to focus on homosexuality because gay rights are so popular in our depraved modern society.

    Given that Sabbath violation is far more common than homosexuality, one might think he would fulminate against that instead.

    Especially given that the 10 commandments include keeping the Sabbath, but say nothing about homosexuality.

  157. Anton Mates says

    Given that Sabbath violation is far more common than homosexuality, one might think he would fulminate against that instead.

    Well, Jesus and his disciples violated the Sabbath all the time, and he defended the practice whenever the Pharisees complained. And Sabbath-keeping is probably the only sin in the world that Paul explicitly doesn’t care about–he says people can pick a day to treat as the Sabbath, or not, and no one should judge anyone else about it. So a literalist has more reasons than usual to think that that commandment doesn’t apply to Christians.

    (Mind you, I’m sure the real reasons for Phelps’ choice of topics have much more to do with his visceral disgust and/or shame-filled fantasies, and the fact that you can piss off people a lot more by shouting about “fags” than by shouting about “filthy Sabbath-breakers,” and the fact that there aren’t many Sabbath-breaker-rights marches available for counterprotesting.)

  158. uncle frogy says

    thank “god” for the internet and free net video how else would we get to find out about what is going on in the world, not from “net work media”.
    anyone can make any damn thing and post it for all to see.

    I am reminded of
    The Second Coming

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Surely some revelation is at hand;
    Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
    The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
    Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
    Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
    The darkness drops again; but now I know
    That twenty centuries of stony sleep
    Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

    — William Butler Yeats

    your guess is as good as mine

  159. CCP says

    Just a song of Gomorrah
    Wonder what they did there
    Must have been a ba-ad thing
    To get shot down for…
    –Robt. Hunter

  160. Courtney Stoker says

    I’ve always said that these people make more sense than those who read the bible and then claim God is all loving. He certainly does worse things in the OT then destroy a couple of buildings in wrath.

    The real thing that disturbs me is how they’re all smiling. When I was a Christian, I was *horrified* that people were going to eventually go to hell.

  161. E says

    I am a Christian. These people are not Christian. People through the years have taken and twisted and contorted the Bible to the beliefs that they hold. What they preach is not Christianity. I know several Christians who may have messed up theology. But as a Christian, I feel that more than anyone the Phelpsians are deserving of the utmost punishment that they can receive. Now I am a fairly liberal Christian as far as Christians go. Don’t assume that all Christians are this way, until you know all of the facts.

  162. says

    The kids remind me of the Amish. They are excluded from society by their religion and it’s a shame in and of itself.

    I’m not sure it’s a shame that Amish kids are excluded from society. Do children require a diet of iPods, MTV, and cell phones to grow up to be good human beings? I don’t think so.

    Although I disagree with the supernatural beliefs of the Amish, and I think their technophobe attitude is strange, I can’t say I think their technological phobia is necessarily BAD.

    You don’t see many drive-bys with horse drawn carriages.

    The Amish kids are not in the same situation as the Phelpsian kids by a long shot.

    … then let the effin’ gays get married! End of f@*#in’ problem, sheesh! Do I have to solve *everything* for these guys?!

    Better idea: Get the state out of the marriage business completely. Make any coupling/tripling/whatevering into a standard contract. There are already very good contract rules about how they should be handled and how they should be ended. The important aspects of marriage law can be imported to these contracts so children aren’t left without support etc.

    Marriage is a cultural thing, let the government stay out of it.

    Raising a family and supporting each other is a contractual thing. Governments are reasonably adept at contracts, so let them deal with that.

    the fact that there aren’t many Sabbath-breaker-rights marches available for counterprotesting.

    But there are some… In Canada people still get a bit uppity about stores opening on Sunday and it was a long and hard fight to get things like the Lord’s Day Act repealed.

    It’s time for another Waco.

    I’ve been saying that about the Phelpsians for years. They’re going to go out in a Waco or a Jonestown… it’s just a matter of time.

  163. Justin Moretti says

    They all look vaguely alike. You’re right.

    I thought the little kid had Down’s at first glance.

    And yes, anyone who can teach a child this much loathing should go in for abuse. Or die in a fire, one of the two. Except that Phelps and all his crowd will be in the fire AFTER they die.

  164. says

    The real thing that disturbs me is how they’re all smiling. When I was a Christian, I was *horrified* that people were going to eventually go to hell.
    Exactly. Back in my fundy days, none of us were looking forward to seeing family, friends and neighbours being damned (and on a personal level: the whole strict salvation-and-damnation thing was the first bit of fundamentalism I jettisoned). And the “sales pitch” had less about fire-and-brimstone and more about peace in your life and existential meaning in the here and now. Which is why I find this inversion so disturbing. Even seen as parody it’s just stupid — real parodies by folks like Python are funny.

  165. says

    http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=3209

    suggests that some people get positive reinforcement from making others angry, and it’s a very deep reflex.

    Other than that, I think it’s fair to say that Phelps is outside the mainstream of American Christianity. He revels in malice to an extraordinary extent.

    I’m not going to argue about whether he’s a “real” Christian, but I do believe that people make their own versions of their religions, and he’s done a remarkably awful job.

  166. Paul Flocken says

    QUOTE: “I am a Christian. These people are not Christian.”

    Says you. The Phelpsians disagree. How can we tell you apart from them from just the bible.

    QUOTE: “People through the years have taken and twisted and contorted the Bible to the beliefs that they hold. What they preach is not Christianity. I know several Christians who may have messed up theology. But as a Christian, I feel that more than anyone the Phelpsians are deserving of the utmost punishment that they can receive.”

    You feel! Can’t you give us something more than that from the internal criteria of the bible to back up your feelings. After all, these fundatics are using the same bible you are. What in the bible differentiates you from them.

    QUOTE: “Now I am a fairly liberal Christian as far as Christians go. Don’t assume that all Christians are this way, until you know all of the facts.”

    So there are more than one kind of christian. And you get to decide which ones are the true believers and which not? How convenient. Again, how do you tell them apart using the internal criteria of the bible? If, as I have been told, that even the devil can quote scripture, then what good, exactly, is scripture, if scripture is to be rejected just because the devil, or Fred Phelps, is using it in a manner you don’t like.

    Insincerely,

  167. Will Von Wizzlepig says

    Sweet Baby Jesus. Those people hate America.

    I guess if they don’t like all our sinning, they’d better just … uh… well, they can’t kill themselves, and they can’t kill each other… ummmm… maybe they can go to Iraq and help clean up all the depleted uranium ammunition there.

    Probably huffing it is the best plan.

  168. says

    Sweet Baby Jesus. Those people hate America.

    Yes, well. They hate us for our freedom.

    (That might be the first time that somebody’s said that and it’s been true. Discuss amongst yourselves.)

  169. David Robertson says

    This is meant to be a science blog? So why is this video posted here? The posting of it is almost as sick as the video itself. This was also linked to the Dawkins site where I posted the following. It applies here as well.

    Dear Dr Dawkins,

    You are absolutely correct. This video is disgusting beyond belief. However I am almost as revolted by your behaviour in using the antics of these sick people as a justification for your atheistic arguments. It is the ultimate in ad hominem argument. Let me ask you some serious questions –

    1) Why did you post this video on your website?
    2) Out of the two billion people who profess to be Christian in the world, how many do you think would not be sickened by this video?
    3) Do you think that these people behave in this way because they were basically good people who have somehow been perverted by Christianity? If so could you explain why 99.9999999% of those who have been taught Christianity do not behave in this way?
    4) Of course the above video is child abuse. But you wrongly attribute that abuse to religion – not realising that religion can be used as a cloak for many things. I could personally take you to people and homes where as bad, if not worse abuse goes on. Some of that abuse is done by people who would claim to be religious, some by those who would claim to be atheist. I would not blame either ‘philosophy’ for the abuse.

    5) Do you not realise that Fred Phelps (the ‘patriarch’ and abuser in chief of the Westboro Baptist Church)lives for and thrives on publicity? By feeding his mania for self-publicity you are in fact contributing to and aiding the abuse. Does that not bother you? Or is your hatred of Christianity so strong, and your desire to promote your own views so overwhelming that you do not care who you hurt?

    Given that you read this website you must know how inflammatory your posting of this video and your own comments are. Even the few posted so far indicate how dangerous and stupid this is.

    2. wolfpurplemoon wants to warn us that this is coming to Britain.

    3. Angieruns thinks that this is evidence that Christians do not serve a loving god.

    4. axisaudio thinks it proves that ‘religion is child abuse’ (you have thereby suceeded in classing me and the others I was with tonight helping run a club in a run down inner city area,as child abusers, equivalent to the Phelps).

    5. Even Fedler, who is normally one of the saner and more reasonable people on this site joins in. And yes – Westboro Baptist Church has been reprimanded by many other Baptist congregations (but I guess that would not be posted here?).

    6. captain underpants seems to see a conspiracy of ‘funding’. They are funded by themselves and live off the publicity that people like you give them.

    7. Jackson Ayres thankfully brings some perspective and sanity to the whole witchhunt.

    8. Lutrasimilis seems to think this is typical ‘fundamentalism’.

    And so it will go on. I find your use of this video cheap, abusive and degrading. It is on a par with the Nazis who used stories about ‘bad Jews’ in order to stir up a general hatred for all Jews. Your equation of the Phelps family with Christianity, your oft stated linkage of ‘moderate’ Christianity with ‘extremists’, and the nature of this website, means that you have done a dangerous and frankly quite disgusting thing in posting this video and your comments here.

    I know I will get the usual barrage of abuse (which will only prove my point)and will probably be banned for daring to challenge you, but for once, please admit that you are wrong to do this, and please tell your followers not to equate Christianity (and therefore all Christians) with this perverse and sickening child abuse.

    By the way, even those most ignorant of theology should know that the Bible teaches that God ‘so loved the world’. The Phelps are heretics in the worst sense of the world. But then I suspect you know that.

    I am really angry and disguested with you for doing this. It is the worst thing you have done on this website yet and deserves an immediate apology and retraction.

    David Robertson
    (author of ‘The Dawkins Letters – challenging atheist myths).

  170. says

    please tell your followers not to equate Christianity (and therefore all Christians) with this perverse and sickening child abuse.

    Yes, it’s nothing like what half a dozen or so Texas Christards have done to their children over the last decade or so, nothing at all like the Mormon splinter sect that forces underage girls into group marriages, nothing at all like what Koresh’s crowd did, and it’s certainly nothing like the way Catholic priests have been raping boys for centuries.

    Why, the differences are obvious to anyone who casts a discerning eye.

    Aren’t they?

  171. David Robertson says

    “Why, the differences are obvious to anyone who casts a discerning eye.

    Aren’t they?”

    Yes – they are. If you wern’t so prejudiced and blind.

  172. David Marjanović says

    I have to point out that all the mainstream Christian denominations insist that Christ created a new covenant between Man and God which superceded the Old Testament law and rendered it, as Yarrer Arafat might have said, “caduc”.

    Not according to (…modern…) Catholic dogma. You see, God never ever breaks his promises. “Nobody comes to the Father but through me” — the Jews already are there. Seriously.

    much like Clausewitz envisions in his dictum that politics is war by other means.

    He wrote Krieg ist die Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln, “war is the continuation of politics by other means”.

    Why the fuck dont we take the same initiative the iraqi suicide bombers do and wipe these fucks out?
    we’re all going to hell anyway according to them, so why not enjoy the rest of our life we have and kill them all?

    Because it would be murder? Because the morons aren’t even doing any harm except for pissing people off? Why not enjoy the rest of our life, period?

    Quote-mining would be […] treating a parable as if the writers meant it to be history.

    Some parables are clearly marked as such. Others less so… it’s not always easy, or perhaps at all possible, to figure out what was meant as a parable.

  173. David Marjanović says

    I have to point out that all the mainstream Christian denominations insist that Christ created a new covenant between Man and God which superceded the Old Testament law and rendered it, as Yarrer Arafat might have said, “caduc”.

    Not according to (…modern…) Catholic dogma. You see, God never ever breaks his promises. “Nobody comes to the Father but through me” — the Jews already are there. Seriously.

    much like Clausewitz envisions in his dictum that politics is war by other means.

    He wrote Krieg ist die Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln, “war is the continuation of politics by other means”.

    Why the fuck dont we take the same initiative the iraqi suicide bombers do and wipe these fucks out?
    we’re all going to hell anyway according to them, so why not enjoy the rest of our life we have and kill them all?

    Because it would be murder? Because the morons aren’t even doing any harm except for pissing people off? Why not enjoy the rest of our life, period?

    Quote-mining would be […] treating a parable as if the writers meant it to be history.

    Some parables are clearly marked as such. Others less so… it’s not always easy, or perhaps at all possible, to figure out what was meant as a parable.

  174. says

    I know I will get the usual barrage of abuse (which will only prove my point)

    I’m confused. So are we supposed to abuse you or not?

    I think it’s perfectly obvious to the majority of readers here that Phelps and ilk are not representative of all Christians everywhere. We’ve all met Christians who weren’t Phelps, we know that they’re not all foamy-mouthed, hate-filled publicity whores. Some of us even live near Christians, and interact with them frequently. PZ has running e-mail correspondence with several of them, IIRC. My very own parents and three siblings (gasp!) are Christians. So there’s really no danger here of people getting confused on this point, okay? We don’t need any concern-trolling telling us that Christians aren’t all like that. (But thanks! We appreciate the thought!)

    Equally obvious: Phelps is exceptional more in degree than in kind. Sentiments much like the ones Phelps expresses have been said more politely before (like by PZ’s pen pals, or my parents), but what he’s saying is not anything especially new.

  175. Gommorah says

    I like listening to this song while enjoying a nice tall glass of refreshing Jonestown Kool-Aid. I especially take solice in this song since my friends have all turned to pillars of salt.

    Wishing the world compassion and understanding.

  176. says

    If you wern’t so prejudiced and blind.
    Posted by: David Robertson

    Ah, name-calling already. What a fine example of your god you’ve proven to be.

  177. Kseniya says

    Jessica: Thank you.

    I wonder if Mr. Robertson can explain why great numbers of Antiphelpsian Christians haven’t spoken out, persistently and vociferously, against the hate-politics of the Westover Baptist Church.

    One would think that Christians who are interested in preserving the good reputation of Christianity would call out the Westover mob, rather than resort to bitterly criticising Dawkins, Myers and others (who just happen to be atheists – coincidence?) who follow a moral imperative which dictates that it’s better to to shine a light on the verminous Phelps and the rest of his hateful cult than to pretend it doesn’t exist or to apologetically point out that We’re Not Like That.

    Well?

    If you really want to prove a point, Mr. Robertson, I suggest you walk the walk, instead of paying lip service to goodness and otherwise wasting time denouncing others who denounce that which you claim to abhor.

  178. Nicholas Spies says

    Although this video may not be “representative of Christians everywhere”, it certainly seems to be to representative of a self-appointed fringe that many “moderate” Christians secretly admire, and would emulate if they were as “brave enough” (to be completely irrational).

    It smacks of the “I’d be a fool for Christ” sort of statement that many infected with the Christian virus seem to find amusing, presumably because it is so perplexing to the uninfected. Although it may be clear to the Christian buffoons who like to mouth this mush, it is opaque why anyone would like to run around saying “I’d be a zombie for Christ” or “I’d be cannon-fodder for Christ”, which are, pretty much, equivalent.

    Many centuries of “Christian soldiers” marching this way and that attest to the efficacy of training people to live, kill and die for such notions. Whole pyramids of religious and secular power were and are supported by such facile nuttiness. This is why religion ought be treated with as much respect as Ebola, no matter what your forefathers might have thought about it.

  179. shade51 says

    People, I think you are missing the point here! This is a wonderful video. It absolves all of us of the need to do anything at all to “get right” with God. We can’t do anything to please God – he hates us all, we are all doomed to hell, and NOTHING can change his mind!

    So… what does this tell you? Come on – live it up! Do whatever you want to do! Have wild sex, kill your enemies, indulge every fantasy! God has made up his mind, and NONE of us can change it. Is that GREAT, or what?

    I’m bound for hell, and so are you. Forget about praying, or any of that mainstream christian crap! We are all DOOMED!!! So let’s all FULLY and COMPLETELY enjoy whatever time we have left before we fall into the flames! We should thank the Westboro Baptist Church for freeing us from religion’s oppression.

    God HATES us, in no uncertain terms. We are powerless to change his mind. Hallelujah!!!! Let the orgies begin! This is religion I can almost kind of respect.

  180. Dave C says

    We’ve all met Christians who weren’t Phelps, we know that they’re not all foamy-mouthed, hate-filled publicity whores.

    No, but Christians do believe that non-Christians are going to burn in hell. Perhaps someone could explain to me the difference between these nut jobs and other Christians claiming people will burn in fire for eternity.

  181. Voice 0'Reason says

    Please can we skip ahead to the part where these freaks drink the Kool-Aid!?

  182. IrishCat says

    #202 Not all Christians believe that. If a non-Christian never heard of, or learned about God he/she can’t be condemned if he/she has lived a good life. If on the other hand one was to know God and reject Him, well go figure. As for the NUTS above, they’re not Christians they’re just nuts. They may call themselves Christian but they’re not.
    #198 I am a Christian and I do not admire, secretly or otherwise, that bunch of hate filled lunatics. By the way, the most efficient genociadalists were atheists i.e. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot.

  183. MartinM says

    If a non-Christian never heard of, or learned about God he/she can’t be condemned if he/she has lived a good life.

    Says you. There are Christians who believe that people who never heard are just screwed.

    If on the other hand one was to know God and reject Him, well go figure.

    Go figure what, exactly? Are you actually going to offer an argument supporting the notion that eternal torment is justified, or is it just to be taken as a given?

    As for the NUTS above, they’re not Christians they’re just nuts. They may call themselves Christian but they’re not.

    ‘Christian’ and ‘nut’ are not mutually exclusive.

    By the way, the most efficient genociadalists were atheists i.e. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot.

    Hitler was not an atheist.

  184. says

    An imagined conversation between Rev. Ted Haggard and Rev. Fred Phelps:

    TH: Hey there Freddy. How’s it hanging? I like all your gay bashing and shit… because I too believe homosexuality is an a-BUMMER-nation, as it is said in the good book…. Can we be “friends”?

    FP: Wait a tooting minute, didn’t you get busted with a Gay Prostitute a few months ago? Aren’t you a card carrying fag yerself??

    TH: No my brother, that was just a bad case of “sexual immorality”, in the name of Jesus Christ, I am all cured and shit.

    FP: For three years you were sinning with this Man-Whore, and suddenly you are cured??

    TH: Yes, I have repented for my sins and will now shout out the name of only one man “Jesus… oh God… Oh yes, oh Jesus….”

    …. Um… Ahem, Can I join your Church, since I have been turfed by my own brethren?

    FP: ….. F*ck Off!

    TH: ….. Yes Please…

    For more imagined conversations:

    http://inanity-life.blogspot.com/2007/02/case-for-accused.html
    http://inanity-life.blogspot.com/2007/01/in-love-and-war.html

  185. Deirdre says

    Wow… I’m in shock. As a born again believer I’m sickened by these kinds of ideas.

    God doesn’t Hate the World. His Word says just the opposite! Christianity isn’t about condemning people and telling them God Hates them. It’s about loving people and being the Example of Jesus to people.
    Yes, I believe that people who don’t believe in Jesus Christ aren’t going to heaven, but at the same time I’m not telling people God Hates them, because He loves everyone. HE doesn’t love the wrong things that happen, he hates the actions, but not the people.
    I’m embarrassed that there are people who call themselves “Christians” and act that way, and say such ungodly things.

  186. Flea spray says

    Dierdrie,
    I’m glad you are appaulled, but these guy do actually get their vile beliefs from the bible. checkout their website for the verses. Thankfully many people are like you and follow a contradictory part of the bible

  187. abeja says

    from post no. 208:

    Yes, I believe that people who don’t believe in Jesus Christ aren’t going to heaven, but at the same time I’m not telling people God Hates them, because He loves everyone. HE doesn’t love the wrong things that happen, he hates the actions, but not the people.

    How did these whackos all end up here on pharyngula?

  188. says

    God loves everyone, except those God tortures forever, because he hates their actions, not them.

    I’m embarrassed that there are Christians who call themselves people, and act that way, and say such godly things.

  189. Maronan says

    OK, which is it? Is it “too late to change his mind” or should we “obey him?”

    Ah, well, a contradiction or two just keeps up with the spirit of the Bible.

    For that matter, was anyone else as bowled over as I was by the juxtaposition of: “God hates the world” and the insult: “You hateful people!”

  190. Shade51 says

    Can any of you prove that God does NOT hate the world, and all of its people? Using the “logic” of many religionists and apologists, if you can’t DISprove something, then it must be true.

    There is no way to prove or disprove that God hates the world. There is no way to prove or disprove (sayeth the Christians) that God exists. Ergo, God does exist and God does hate the world. It’s very simple, really. It’s only those of you who insist on using things like logic and intellect that will have to struggle with the clarity of this. God exists. And He hates you. Accept it already and get over it. Live out the remainder of your miserable lives before the fires of hell consume you. It’s all any of us can do.

  191. says

    I traveled in Papua New Guinea shortly after the Jonestown suicides. The “savages” were everywhere utterly shocked at how crazy white people can get.

    I don’t think that there is any religion among these PNG people of 800 languages that gets as crazy/hateful as the Baptists in the video. What is a cargo cult here and there compared to these home-grown fanatics?

    I suspect that a lot of “savages” would consider this sort of misanthropic fear and hate indoctrination in the video to be child abuse. It robs the kids of their humanity.

  192. Will Marshall says

    This is a joke…right? Because I was laughing the entire time, on the assumption it was satirical, but the comments lead me to believe otherwise…

  193. C says

    Practicing Catholic here. Like to weigh in with the fact that every Catholic I know finds the Phelps people to be an appalling and shameful face of Christianity. The Christians I know (Catholic, Lutheren, Methodist, ect) all sorta picked up on that “Love each other” and “God is love” part of the bible. They must have left that part out of the Phelp’s version.

  194. D says

    Can any of you prove that God does NOT hate the world, and all of its people? Using the “logic” of many religionists and apologists, if you can’t DISprove something, then it must be true.

    Beer. QED

  195. David Robertson says

    “I wonder if Mr. Robertson can explain why great numbers of Antiphelpsian Christians haven’t spoken out, persistently and vociferously, against the hate-politics of the Westover Baptist Church.”

    We have. And we will continue to. Although the irony is that the Phelps cult thrive on and live for publicity which they will get from atheists who in turn thrive on the view that Christianity is what the Phelps teach. In that sense both the Phelps and those who use them for Christian bashing propoganda purposes, are the same. Disgusting.

  196. Kseniya says

    I’m afraid I don’t fully understand what you’re trying to say. How is it that the Phelps cult does not also thrive on and live for the publicity it will get from all the Antiphelphsian Christians who have, and will continue to, speak out persistently and vociferously against it? Does this Christian speaking-out occur behind closed doors, where nobody can hear it? Why is it not “disgusting” that Christianity produces groups like the WBC, and yet it is “disgusting” when this obvious fact is pointed out by non-Christians? Please explain. Thank you.

  197. says

    I agree with disgusting… This video is the exact image of why I converted from Christianity. Why would you follow a God that encourages you to believe that everything you have ever done is a sin worth burning for.

    Also, I am disgusted that someone would televise their ignorance while simultaneously destroying a song that we know and love.

    This song is also interesting because they say that we need to listen to the “word” to be saved. If anyone has honestly read the “word” for themselves, it is all vague enough to be left to interpretation… I saw it all as an attempt to give us hope, not, die, burn, burn, and die again.

    And I think that final touch of adding the little girl at the end is the final straw. Don’t teach your children that kind of hate so early. Let them experience it for themselves. Send them to Junior high, at least that is real world experience.

  198. says

    I cannot state that the child at the end of this video has been abused. The girl has been educated, either in error or otherwise, and as she grows up it will be her decision whether or not she will follow that path. The greatest achievement of the human nervous system, of which Darwin was so keenly aware of in his book on emotions, is its ability to doubt. For every thought there is its opposite. I will wake up…I will not wake up, I will find a mate…I will not find a mate, God exists…God does not exist. To think in opposites is the basis of doubt and uncertainty and from there follows freedom and escape.

    Of course I am an atheist.

    Since I am Canadian I am also a little curious why there is a Canadian flag flown in the background?

  199. says

    223 comments already. Well, I’m not going to read through all of them to see if this link has been posted yet:

    I am an anti-atheist like many of you, but in all fairness, I think we need to condem this video as well.

  200. says

    It’s just beyond disturbing. God is love yet god is hate? And that poor child at the end…it crushed me to hear her singing that song. It’s just absolutely dreadful.

  201. nancy says

    The tipoff to the mental illness of this mob lies in the concept of God hating. That has to be the biggest contradiction of terms in the history of humanity. Only someone who hates understands hatred so these people are projecting their hatred onto God and looking in a mirror. And, of course, to profess to speak for God is psychosis. The more attention these monsters get, the worse it will be. God is love.

  202. says

    As A Christian I find this morally repugnant.

    John 3:16 “For God LOVED The World so Much that he gave his only begotten son”

    They practice John 16:3 “They do these things because they have not known the father, nor have they known me.”

    And Is it Just me or does everyone in the video look like their parents were related?

  203. Etha Williams says

    Apparently the video has been removed. Anyone know where one can find a working vid?

  204. Lynne Raisley says

    The “god” of your creation is nothing but projecting your views onto what is reality. If you or I really experienced the power of God we would fall on our faces and be utterly overwhelmed. The trouble with your view is that you know not what you are talking about. Behind the physical is the spiritual realllity. Did you know that some the greatest people come forth from troubles. Man has the ability to overcome and triumph. “Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good”. Precious science has not the answers either. There are mysteries that you know not.

  205. Owlmirror says

    If you or I really experienced the power of God we would fall on our faces and be utterly overwhelmed.

    Then God should tone back on the power, and just talk.

    Hey, I would settle for a still small voice. Or even a burning bush.

    There are mysteries that you know not.

    I know. I’m more of an SF fan, and these days, I’ve been reading more nonfiction.

    Although I do like the mysteries on “Pushing Daisies”, weird as that show is. Pity it was canceled.

  206. Nerd of Redhead says

    Lynne, do you have any physical proof for your imaginary god that would pass muster with scientists, magicians, and professional debunkers? I didn’t think so. Physical evidence for your imaginary god is sorely lacking.

  207. Wowbagger says

    If you or I really experienced the power of God we would fall on our faces and be utterly overwhelmed.

    If he has so much power, why is he useless? Why doesn’t he do something to alleviate the suffering in the world? Or are you implying that he could, but doesn’t? That would work, too – god not being benevolent; rather, he is the hateful monster christians seem to forget the old testament shows he is.

    The trouble with your view is that you know not what you are talking about.

    I think you’d be very unpleasantly surprised at how many Pharyngulites are far more familiar with the vagaries of religious belief than you – or anyone you know, for that matter – are. Are you able to translate ancient Greek and Hebrew? Posters here can.

    Man has the ability to overcome and triumph.

    Er, not quite. Humanity has the ability to overcome the burden of superstitious nonsense and triumph over redundant, archaic religions.

    Fixed it for ya.