The BBC has another article on Ken Ham’s creationism museum, and guess what they say?
Petersburg, Kentucky, is in the middle of North America. It is supposedly within a day’s drive of two-thirds of the US population.
Aaargh, no. Kentucky is way over on the eastern side of the US. It is not within a day’s drive of two-thirds of the US population. Is Ham telling everyone this nonsense as a test of how credulous the media might be? Because he’s doing a good job of demonstrating that journalists will swallow anything.
At least this time they included the modifier “supposedly”. It’s progress, I suppose.
Hate to be defending Ham, but the population of the US isn’t evenly distributed, there are more people in the East. Not sure if it’s two thirds or not…
Alex, it’s not.
Just for fun, I tried to see how far a few places are from Petersburg, Kentucky. Using Mapquest, the following cities are within ~18 hours (that’s less than one day!): Miami, San Antionio, Denver, and Bangor ME.
That covers all of the East, Midwest, and Southeast and a bit of the West. I’d guess that’s about 2/3 of the US population. Now, whether or not you want to spend 18 hours straight to drive to to Ken’s museum is a matter of taste. It’s only 7.5 hours for me…
Driving eighteen hours at a stretch? That’s not a “day’s drive” in any sense I’ve ever heard the term used.
By day’s drive they might mean the full 24 hours…tricky, very tricky.
They’re probably using ‘God’ time (you know like in Genesis) to take their measurement. At that time scale most of the inner solar system is within a few hours drive of Kentucky.
Actually PZ, you’re attacking the one claim that Ham makes which might (might!) be true.
They’re shooting Jurassic Park 4. I’d love to see a Tyranosaurus tear through a creation museum. Everyone runs except for the proprietor- who’s sure that the T-rex is a vegetarian.
The New York Times has an article about the rise of secularity among the US Hispanic population.
For Some Hispanics, Coming to U.S. Means Abandoning Religion
What sort of “framing” is going on there?
Sorry,
Meant to post that to a different thread. But maybe someone will actually be able to see it on this one!
I just read the BBC article linked to this, they actually do not treat the museum all that kindly – Anyone here know what’s the story with the “Steve Steve” group?
One dot equals 7500 people in this map based on the 2000 census. Judge for yourself.
Nah, we’ve been all over this “2/3s myth” before. It used to be within 6 hours of 2/3 of the population (complete nonsense), then it was a “day’s drive” (still nonsense).
As someone in a barren, rural part of a state, I know what a day’s drive is. From my home to Madison, Wisconsin is a long day’s drive that doesn’t leave you much time to do anything once you get there. It would be another day’s drive to Cincinnati. Seriously, it’s a claim that doesn’t make any sense.
Unless maybe Ken Ham has a rocket car. He has the inside scoop on all that “science” stuff, so maybe he does.
Holy Shit, Ken Ham has a TARDIS, that has to be it… How else would he be able to travel that far in a “day” and be able to know that Jesus rode a dinosaur…
A lot of people make the mistake of forgetting that the eastern seaboard slopes northeast to southwest, so any place as far south as Kentucky is actually more than a little bit west of, say Boston or even New York. Besides that, Kentucky isn’t even on the coast and actually extends further west than Indiana – as far as eastern Wisconsin or central Illinois, even.
That said, I don’t really think I’d say Boston – let alone Bangor – is really within a day’s drive of Petersburg. MapQuest says 14.5 hours for 908 miles from Boston, which is a rather long day at 62.5mph including breaks (try that with kids). Bangor would be more than a day’s drive even by that not-quite-credible definition, Denver would make the cutoff by 11 minutes, Miami by less than an hour, and Houston by not much more than that. Amusingly, Morris MN seems relatively do-able as a day trip. If we exclude Boston and Miami and Houston and Denver and the entire west coast, though, the “two thirds” claim does start to look pretty dubious. Half, maybe, but not two thirds.
This monument to ignorance is but fifteen miles away from me and I am utterly filled with shame that I haven’t managed to sabotage it yet. That my freakazoid fundie- but lovable- aunt donated quite profoundly to Ham’s delusion no longer bothers me as I deal with her now as one would a five year-old.
In some weird, voluntary, and, ultimately, self-hating way, Ken Ham is a Sisyphus for our time and we should all hope his little, ahem, erection is built to last. It would be a real shame if folks five hundred years from now didn’t realize what an idiot he was, too.
Assuming cars fly (no road restrictions), 24 hours of drive time, and population dynamics. How fast would cars need to travel in order to make the claim accurate?
Personally, I still dispute the claim that Ken Ham’s building is a “museum”
It of course depends on how you define “a day’s drive”. But, Petersburg, Ky is within 1000 miles of about 75% of the population of the U.S.
Best laugh of the day so far.
Surely you know that the first guy who gets an item out on the wire ‘wins’. Media guys hardly ever fact-check these days.
Iggeographicacy is normal here in Canada. Friends from Oz ask questions such as ‘If I land in Vancouver to save money on airfare and rent a car, how far is it to your place near Toronto?’
Answer: Well, let’s see, you’re new here, so if you wear diapers, eat only at drive-throughs, refuel on the fly from tanker trucks and have another driver with you, you might make it in three days, depending on the weather, the car and whether you get through the Rockies in one piece’.
The Scots often ask ‘will we be able to take a side trip to the Atlantic while we’re visiting?’
And so on…
Selma,
Exactly!
Is this calculation accounting for the wearing of diapers?
P. Zizzy probably based his numbers on the non-diaper assisted times.
I thought it was outside Cincy? Anyway, it is within “a day’s drive” of 2/3 of the U.S. population if you mean by that that you can drive there one day, and visit the next. There’s no way you’re going to drive from NYC or Boston to Ohio (or Kentucky!) and visit some “museum” the same day.
Selma: you mean you don’t ask them the equivalent question about driving from Sydney to Perth, or (perhaps even funnier) Hobart? Personally I’d tell them that they can make the trip in one day, as long as the wormhole’s open and they can afford the astronomical (groan) tolls. That’s assuming they’re *good* friends, of course. Otherwise I’d just say “sure, go for it” and enjoy a few extra days of their not being at my place.
For me, it’s 2,525 miles away. That’s 1 day, 13 hours, according to Google directions.
If I lived in Salt Lake, then I would be 23 hours 51 minutes away, well within the 24 hour zone!
Salt Lake City, here I come!
CalGeorge, damn you! I just did that exact calculation.
So by this definition, “day’s drive” = “24 hours travelling city center to city center, using only highways, at the speed limit, without stopping.” Mmmmyeah, that sounds fun (and likely–*no* traffic or construction?).
It’s only 16 hours 54 minutes (1,064 mi.) from Augusta ME.
[Remember: make a Slight right at I-295 S (signs for I-295 S/ME-9/Gardiner/ME-126/]
Lunch in Albany, late dinner at the House of Pancakes in Erie, PA, them you arrive at the museum bright and early the next morning!
I do believe they’ve finally gotten it right!
The U.S. population is about 293,027,571. Divide that by 3 to get the number of people you can’t reach if you are to meet the criteria. That would be 97,675,857. Then start excluding states starting at the west coast.
Hawaii: 97.7 M – 1.3 M = 96.4 M
Alaska: 96.4 – 0.7 = 95.7 M
Washington: 95.7 – 6.4 = 89.3 M
Oregon: 89.3 – 3.7 = 85.6 M
California: 85.6 – 36.5 = 49.1 M
Nevada: 49.1 – 2.5 = 46.6 M
Idaho: 46.6 – 1.5 = 45.1 M
Arizona: 45.1 – 6.2 = 38.9 M
Utah: 38.9 – 2.6 = 36.3 M
Montana: 36.3 – 0.9 = 35.4 M
Wyoming: 35.4 – 0.5 = 34.9 M
New Mexico: 34.9 – 2 = 32.9 M
Colorado: 32.9 – 4.8 = 28.1 M
North Dakota: 28.1 – .6 = 27.5 M
Maine: 27.5 – 1.3 = 26.2 M
South Dakota: 26.2 – .8 = 24.3 M
New Hampshire: 25.3 – 1.3 = 24.1 M
Texas: 24.1 – 23.5 = 0.6 M
Massachusetts: 0.6 – 6.4 < 0 So within an 1,200-600 mile radius (the distance to the outer and inner edges of Texas, respectively) lies 2/3 of the country's populations. Now most of Texas's popluation lies in the southeast (near the coast), so it would probably be safe to assume that, since Petersburg is towards the Northeast, the cutoff lies somewhere in the center, so about 1000 miles or so. To get there in 24 hours you would have to go about 42 mph, 83 mph in 12 hours, and 167 mph to get there in 6 hours.
Ever look at one of those night-time satellite images of the U.S.? Everything east of the MIssissippi is lit up like a Christmas tree. Most everything west of the river is dark.
Wikipedia says the Census Bureau defines the “mean center of the U.S. population” as “the point at which an imaginary, flat, weightless, and rigid map of the United States would balance perfectly if weights of identical value were placed on it so that each weight represented the location of one person on the date of the census.”
After the 2000 Census, the center was in Phelps County, Missouri, which is near the middle of the state. Kentucky’s western border abuts MIssouri, with the MIssissippi in between.
So, whatever it really means, it isn’t unreasonable to assert that you can get to two-third’s of the population within a day from Kentucky. Off the top of my head, I’d say your basic long-haul truck driver would plan on taking one day to get from, say, Louisville to any of these places: St. Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, Columbus, Cleveland, Little Rock, Birmingham, Houston, Nashville, Memphis, Atlanta, Jacksonville, Miami, St. Petersburg, Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte, Charleston, Washington D.C., Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and probably New York.
I cringed at that too. Actually, the entire article made me cringe. It was pretty bad.
Yeah, I’ve been tempted for some time to take my little Coolpix video camera to the Cretin Museum and do some superimposing with some raptors running amok chewing up the penisless Adam and all.
I need to learn how to make YouTube videos, because just this quick little scene with a Ken Ham superimposed would please me. It might not be too difficult…
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azf2qycQ5bg
And he’s from crocodile land, no less. Long live the lizards!
I don’t want to offend anyone, but arguing over this particular claim just looks silly to me.
qetzal, silly claims are the only ones worth arguing over.
As a native Kentuckian, I’d just like to apologize to everyone here. This “museum” is an embarrassment to the state of Kentucky and the entire US as a whole. I’ve thought about going there with a sweatshirt on and then peeling it off to reveal a darwin/evolution shirt just to see what would happen, but I’ve decided that they will never see a bit of money from me! I about threw up the other day when I saw a bumper sticker from Answers in Genesis that said, “We’re taking dinosaurs back!”. They weren’t yours in the first place, how in the fuck can you take them back???
CalGeorge:
But you would be much closer to several real dinosaur museums. Eastern Utah, Wyoming, and western Colorado have many superb dinosaur quarries (some of which have been producing important fossils since the bone wars of the 19th century) . Several have attached museums worth visiting.
I wonder if that “supposedly” qualifier is a classically British understated way to call “Bull[flops]!!”
Look, if you start driving for the creation science museum, and you’re one of the lucky 2/3, then you will get there within a day. GOD will make it happen! If He doesn’t, then you were one of the 1/3. We don’t need to bother with any of this empirical nonsense about who lives where. Honestly, it was just this sort of bellyaching that got it bumped up to a day from 6 hours, so if you keep at it he’ll make it a week!!!
No, Dennis, you’re a fool, an outrageous fool! Why do you have to be so literal? We can preserve the basic truth of Ken Ham’s talking points just by accepting an alternative definition of “day’s drive.” And what definition is going to do the job for us? “However long it takes to drive to the Creation Museum!” Yay, RELIGION IS SAVED.
If it’s near an interstate, and by the look of google maps, it is, then I’m completely ready to believe that you can get there in 12 hours from anywhere within say KC to Minneapolis to New York. Texas seems a bit out of reach and the interstates aren’t very direct to the Cincy area from the southeast but if it’s not 2/3 of the US population, it’s a hell of a lot.
lol… you’re arguing about whether or not his museum is a days drive away from 2/3 of the country. who cares?? hahaha
I google mapped it: 20 hours 14 minutes.
I’m in Albuquerque, NM.
I have to agree, stupid as it is, the 2/3 of the population in less than a day is probably strictly accurate. It’s probably the only thing about the museum that is.
It’s Ken Ham. A “day” can only mean one thing: 24 hours.
2,399 miles for me. Google maps says 35 hours. I’m kind of pleased to be in that 1/3–too bad I’m about two miles from the Discovery Institute…
As someone in a barren, rural part of a state, I know what a day’s drive is. From my home to Madison, Wisconsin is a long day’s drive that doesn’t leave you much time to do anything once you get there. It would be another day’s drive to Cincinnati. Seriously, it’s a claim that doesn’t make any sense.
Professor, you are WEAK. I once drove from Madison down to Columbus, South Carolina and it only took _me_ 22 hours. Ah, the vigor of youth… ;-)
The author is paid by the Templeton Foundation:
http://www.templeton-cambridge.org/fellows/redfern/
“Fellows will be paid a $15,000 stipend in addition to a book allowance and travel expenses.”
I would say that if you plan to drive for 18 hours straight without considering the inconvenience and increased risk for accidents, you are welcome to Ham’s Monument Over Ludicrous People.
Now, since US is a litigation culture I would be interested to know if Ham can get sued for promoting dangerous traffic?
I would say that if you plan to drive for 18 hours straight without considering the inconvenience and increased risk for accidents, you are welcome to Ham’s Monument Over Ludicrous People.
Now, since US is a litigation culture I would be interested to know if Ham can get sued for promoting dangerous traffic?
So by this definition, “day’s drive” = “24 hours travelling city center to city center, using only highways, at the speed limit, without stopping.”
You probably will see giant reptiles by the end of the day, whether you end up at Ham’s museum or not.
Unfortunately for me, google maps says that it’s 45 miles (about 50 minutes) from me. =(
If Michigan gets to be in the “mid West”, Kentucky gets to be in the middle
I read the article, and as far as I could guess the reporter was simply cynical about it. The wording “supposedly” gives it away. British Humour, you know.
I’d say that the Cannonball Baker Sea-To-Shining-Sea Memorial Trophy Dash proved that DinoLand is truly within a day’s drive of 2/3 of the US population.
Aiaiaiaiaii! California abuts both Oregon and Mexico, but Oregon isn’t near Mexico.
Sorry. I grew up in Missouri. Those central states are *not* small.
Well, Cincinnati is well connected to the southeast via I-75, down which many people drive to Florida in one day. Lots of folks make a similar run down I-95. It isn’t smart, but thousands of people do it every day.
By the way, this “We’re a day’s drive from X percent of…” business is traditional Chamber of Commerce hype.
One more take on the 2/3 figure. It is supposed to be an explanation, isn’t it, for the location? Isn’t an explanation supposed to explain “why this, and not something else”?
I’m interested in using this as an example of what an explanation is supposed to be like.
Well, how many places in the USA are within a day’s drive of 2/3 of the population? Why choose this particular place, among all of the places which fit this criterion?
If I were really interested in this, I might ask to maximize that figure – what place in the USA is within a day’s drive of the largest fraction of the population? Or, what place in the USA is within the least driving time of 2/3 of the population?
It is an utterly absurd issue to argue about. It’s a completely meaningless statistic, vague and fuzzy and useless.
What is interesting, though, is how almost every single article on Ham’s creation “science” “museum” parrots it. It’s bizarre. I follow the creationist news fairly closely, and I have been puzzled at how “Ham”, “Kentucky”, and “2/3” are associated in the media — it’s as if this distracting and irrelevant number has some magic power of attraction that compels every reporter to imbed it in every news item about the place.
Oh, and “$27 million” comes up a lot, too. That I can understand. The implication that they intentionally positioned the museum to maximize access to the population? Total bullshit.
Driving eighteen hours at a stretch? That’s not a “day’s drive” in any sense I’ve ever heard the term used.
That’s actually the only way I’ve heard the term “day’s drive” used: it takes a day to get there. It’s how people in the Northeast or Midwest describe going to Florida for a few days vacation, and it’s quite different from the term “day trip,” which does mean something you can drive to and visit in a day, returning home that night.
These people still think its 1800. The country still only goes to the Mississippi.
see
http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/maps/1800/
But certainly more than a day in a horse and buggy….
The author is paid by the Templeton Foundation:
http://www.templeton-cambridge.org/fellows/redfern/
Well wadda ya know!
Look at some of the articles by these “fellows”:
http://www.templeton-cambridge.org/fellows/great_issues/
Here’s something from an article be John Timpane published in the Philly Inquirer in 2005:
Intelligent Design
Teach it as a belief, but not as science
[…]
Billions of people have seen – still do see – a divine hand in creation. Billions. It’s not science, but it’s not superstition, either.
Existence is a miracle, and, as science shows every blessed day, it has a fearsome, ineffable, exalting loveliness. Chemists cry at sunsets, and the greatest minds in history have proclaimed both belief and unbelief. No one holds the knockout card; you pays your money and you takes your choice.
http://www.templeton-cambridge.org/fellows/timpane/publications/2005.08.07/intelligent_design/
Looks like propaganda couched in fair and balanced rhetoric. Has Francis Collins been reading this guy?
“What is interesting, though, is how almost every single article on Ham’s creation ‘science’ ‘museum’ parrots it. It’s bizarre. I follow the creationist news fairly closely, and I have been puzzled at how ‘Ham’, ‘Kentucky’, and ‘2/3’ are associated in the media — it’s as if this distracting and irrelevant number has some magic power of attraction that compels every reporter to imbed it in every news item about the place.”
Every news item about the place parrots the easily digested press release because reporters are lazy and barely rewrite it when covering the topic.
Reporters know that if no-one visits the museum, it isn’t news. So, they must make it news, by implying many people may visit. To them, ‘within a day’s drive of 2/3 of the US population’ is red meat; they can’t resist it, as it implies people may visit. Better yet, most Americans will be surprised to learn a town in Kentucky is so close to so many people. Worse, it’s a classic example of the surprising but almost believable ‘factoid’ that makes a perfect urban legend.
It’s also a convenient factoid to any slant of the story.
Pro: “Because it’s so accessible, the museum will greatly help our ministry!”
Neutral: “Because it’s so accessible, the museum is a significant issue in American social politics.”
Anti: “Because it’s so accessible, the museum is a serious threat to science education.”
This is a good story, because it means our home grown Creationists, especially Truthiness in Science, are not getting any publicity.
It’s a valid point even if inartfully stated. Why is the Great Smokey Mountains National Park the most visited National Park in America? Location. Location. Location.
“I follow the creationist news fairly closely, and I have been puzzled at how “Ham”, “Kentucky”, and “2/3″ are associated in the media…”
PZ, perhaps you’re also getting results for Kentucky Ham, the tasty, sugar-cured pork treat?
I’m only 18.2 miles from the vortex. Do I win a Prize? Is there some sort of stupidity dosimeter I could wear for an early warning of contamination?
Growing up in Florence, KY this 2/3 claim is one I’ve heard before. In fact, several places in KY make the claim. Check this brochure from from UK (in Lexington, about an hour and a half from Petersburg):
http://www.ukathletics.com/doc_lib/sb_2007mg_15.pdf
Page 18, in a prominent box. “Location: Within a day’s drive of 75% of the US population”.
I don’t know where the particular claim originated, but I do know that Petersburg is within about 30 minutes of Big Bone Lick State Park (yes, that’s really its name), which thankfully has some more acurate exhibits on prehistoric finds in the area.
http://parks.ky.gov/stateparks/bb/
British: “Look at what the silly Yanks have done now! They’ve built this crackpot ‘museum’, and instead of being in a run-down Nissen hut in Twin Potholes, New Mexico, like you might expect, it’s right in the heartland! And they spent over 10 million quid on it!”
I suspect the statistic originated with some Chamber Of Commerce pub about what a great area it is to locate your business, got picked up by AiG because it sounds good to them (since when have Creationists ever turned down a factoid they liked?), and is now just being copied from the AiG press release.
I suggest everyone skip the silly creationist museum and come on down here to North Carolina and see our new Teapot Museum.
Yet another reason to move back to Fairbanks,AK! However, I would like to visit this wacky place without paying somehow. I’m only about 3 hours away. We smell it on the rare eastern winds here in Illinois.
PZ, maybe they just swapped a few sylables? it might be within two days drive of one third of the us population. I think that gives a large number of people hope that they could evacuate to a safe distance from this site. The insanity appears to be contagious.
Prof. Steve Steve, a panda, is often featured on The Panda’s Thumb attending scientific field trips. He’s named after Stephen J. Gould and all the scientists named Steve (about 1% of scientists) who are convinced that the New Synthesis is a sound explanation for the fact of evolution. The Panda’s Thumb is the virtual pub of the University of Ediacara. I hope that’s quite clear, now.
Uh, within 11 hours from Pedersburg you’ll find: New York, Atlanta, Washington DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Cincinatti, Cleveland, Columbis, Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Northern Florida, St. Louis, All of the East Coast South of NY except for the tip of Florida, Green Bay (where I am), Memphis, Little Rock, Kansas City, Des Moines, Buffalo, and all the rest. I’ve often driven 11 hours to get somewhere when I’m motivated.
Abilene, Kansas, is – according to Yahoo! maps – a 24 hour drive from Seattle, Washington; 24:03 from Miami, Florida; 24:29 from Augusta, Maine; and less
than 22 hours from San Diego, California.