I love waking up to a slew of comments about how repulsive I am. It always means some MRA has linked to me so he and his buddies can pat themselves on the back, and that’s exactly what happened. The author of the post I eviscerated yesterday tweeted this this morning:
The link comes here, which features this profile picture (for the weak of stomach, avert your eyes!).
And boy, I guess I’m just so hideous that I make misogynistic eyes bleed or something:
Because, you know, my life revolves around attracting and pleasing clueless misogynistic fuckwits. Oh wait, it doesn’t.
Some of his supporters have decided to dive into the comments to offer wisdom that just can’t be constrained to 140 characters. Like AnonJon:
You do realize that only Men can determine what is sexy to them?
No matter of projecting from females on to males of what females think men SHOULD find sexy will have any impact.
The biggest problem of feminism has been this very notion. That females try to decide for men what they should find arousing.
it just doesn’t work that way
You do realize my sole purpose in life isn’t to worry about what men find sexy, and that many men don’t agree with you that educated women are repulsive, right?
Here’s Zorro to the rescue with more stupidity:
Female college professors all stink like yeast and tuna. Everybody knows that!
This dumb broad should learn how to make a sandwich and STFU.
To be fair, S. cerevisiae culturing can smell kind of weird. But I have a feeling that’s not what he’s talking about.
Attractive and happy women have no use for feminism.
And because he says so, it’s true. Or something.
Karl:
Your overall level of physical attractiveness (negative 10, if your photo is anything to go by) is enough to keep self-respecting, non-totally-desperate men away from you. Misogynistic or not. Your level of education has nothing to do with it.
I know it’s useless to say it to a feminist, but… get real.
I’m just so hideous, I am a negative 10. Not a zero. I’ve broken the scale. Damn. Do I get a gold medal for that? Is there an Olympic Sport for Repulsing Assholes?
I really don’t get why these people think I care. I would never date anyone who thought women must spend all their time and effort on being “attractive” to men. I put “attractive” in scare quotes because these guys fail to realize that not all men agree with them on what’s sexy, which was kind of the point of my last post. I dress and look how I want to dress and look, and I only date people who are okay with that. But apparently this makes my boyfriend a “latent homosexual” because he doesn’t follow their ideals of what’s sexy.
Now, one more point:
I know when I point out trollish behavior I’m receiving, a lot of people like to run to the rescue and say how attractive they find me. One, if you think what you’re going to say might come off as creepy, then just don’t say it:
I feel immature sharing this information, but given the context I hope you find it amusing rather than creepy. I developed a mild erection while reading your list of “masculine” traits and thinking about your potential as a girlfriend. What can I say? I like nerdy, laid-back, slightly chubby women. (I am aware you are taken and live far away, but it’s a mostly involuntary response.)
I think this is the definition of TMI.
Two, the point of these posts aren’t for people to swoop in and heal my bruised ego by telling me how hot I am. My ego isn’t bruised – I love laughing at these nitwits. But the point is my attractiveness shouldn’t matter. Even if I was a negative 10, my appearance has nothing to do with the content of my arguments. But notice these guys never actually addressed what I wrote. When you don’t have an argument to make, you have to resort to pot shots about appearance as a desperate attempt to take someone down. Too bad they just make me giggle instead.
Wow, a negative 10. That’s impressive, you should be proud of that.
Hahahahahahahaha. Wow. It must suck to be so bad at being an MRA or a PUA that you have to try (and utterly faily) to neg at someone on Twitter. Oh wow. Cream of the crop here.
Egad. A stunning display of the emotional maturity of third graders on the playground.
I always thought if people have to stoop to criticising how you look, they’ve already lost. Bottom of the barrel gross behaviour.
To most of us, you’re awesome, articulate and inspirational and it super sucks people go out of their way to try and make you feel bad.
Stay strong, dude, we need you!
No arguments so they try to humiliate and silence. It’s just pathetic.
5000 whining atheists vs the Great Prophet
http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/forum?func=view&id=4560&catid=3
add some comment moderation to your BS
What I don’t understand is, why do they genuinely believe women give a shit if they try so hard to convince themselves they wouldn’t fuck us. (because, you know damn well, Jen, that if you were to proposition one of them, they’d take up on the offer).
I mean, this flimsy little coward gave every woman on the planet the an excellent reason to get an advanced degree – to be absoultely sure they never have to date him!
I’m applying to grad school RIGHT NOW!!
The mere thought that some men would AGREE with you!!! I feel I might faint!
“Attractive and happy women have no use for feminism.”
Attractive? I’m a former model, so I think that counts as objectively attractive by conventional standards.
Happy? Married, studying for a career that I love and find very rewarding, oh yeah and I’m living on a freaking Caribbean island. Yup, big check mark there.
Feminist? Most definitely.
Is this one of those games where you can only choose 2 out of 3? Because I think I’ll just continue breaking the rules.
…strange, I didn’t realize PhD candidacy exams involved a runway.
The “I’m too cool for school I don’t care but care enough to post” post. Love it! People that really don’t care, don’t provide more oxygen to the discussion (or fire). How you keep giving Roosh airtime and mentions on this blog only to state you don’t care or it doesn’t effect you only signify that it does! This is like horrible repressed high school drama boiling to the surface lol
Or a cheap way to get more blog hits as i’m sure his loyal fans rush here to continue their “pot shots”
The runway is lined with petri dishes and you have to wear blue PPE booties.
These are vile and disgusting people.
I’d ask them what their BMI is, but I’m smart enough to know it has no connection to how stupid they are.
“And because he says so, it’s true. Or something.”
Wow, you really “eviscerated” me.
LOL
Well, you’re here, aren’t you.
So, you fell for it.
*points at laughs at the silly bigot troll*
Hand model or plus-size model?
Nevermind, I just clicked your name and found out.
Hint: 99% of men aren’t attracted to plus-size models.
https://lh3.ggpht.com/-5CbM-2oLylc/TaIfBDdtW1I/AAAAAAAAALM/yE2JtydF3Vc/s1600/IMG_0398-1.jpg
I didn’t get into a happy, healthy relationship with the man I love by “being attractive to men,” I did it by being me, and I can guarantee that these types of people would find me repulsive, a fact of which I am proud! When I was a teenager I was often told by near-strangers that I was ugly and it bothered me. Then I grew up and realized who gives a damn. Only deeply misogynistic people care whether a woman they don’t even know is attractive to them. They are reducing the worth of another human being to the sexual pleasure derived from looking at them. That’s DISGUSTING.
Went to school, got a degree, became a professional researcher, entered into a relationship with a loving life partner who respects me as an equal. That’s everything I wanted and I did it while perhaps being ugly depending on who you ask :)
That you’re not smart enough to know how much you embarrassed yourself is not Jen’s problem.
*points and laughs at the OTHER silly bigot troll*
I always find comments like “Would you date Person X? (ZOMG THEIR UGLY!)” hilarious. ‘Yes, Mister MRA, the real reason you two wouldn’t date is because she’s ugly, and it’s got NOTHING to do with her standards. I’m sure you’re a real catch, there.’
Apparently, it’s sashay, sashay, defend your thesis, fierce smile, hip out, slinky walk, slinky walk, automatic pass.
Or, you know, just defend your thesis and do the same desperate hoping that we all do. I’m not sure these assholes can comprehend the idea that intellectual pursuits are worthwhile on their own, and that we really don’t care what they think.
But just so it’s clear, I don’t waste a single fucking thought on whether or not these assholes find me attractive. I’m too busy working and learning and, you know, doing things I find fun.
LOL win!
That’s the real reason these MGTOW dudes never actually GO AWAY. They want women to chase after them, crying “no, please stay, mr. macho mra!”
Instead, women – assuming they notice at all – are all “eh, don’t let the door hit ya were evolution split ya!”
And look at how angry that makes them!
Dead wrong. It’s silence that has allowed this problem to persist for so long, and assholes like you aren’t going to get the tacit approval of silence anymore. It’s why you’re so desperate to spin responses like Jen’s and pretend they work in your favor. You can see the end of your era coming, you know that your misogyny is going to start having consistent negative consequences, and you don’t like it.
The pathetic comments you’ve made here can either be the extinction burst of your misogyny or a sign of your coming social obsolescence; it’s really up to you.
It’s not the photo that bothers my weak stomach, it’s the MRA comments. These worthless excuses for human beings are the ultimate case for a strict comment moderation policy.
Wow, if only we could run power plants on this type of gas! It’s cheap, renewable, and apparently we already have an infinite supply.
On an anti-technology note, I’m kind of sorry Twitter was invented.
Did you know that 89.6% of statistics are made up on the spot?
Did you know that weight can fluctuate, which means “go up and down”?
Julie… study reptiles while you’re in school! The world needs more reptile vets!
You are a shithead
To be perfectly clear:
@herdasperser is the shithead.
And you @herdasperser are still a shithead
Well y’know, Real Men™ only date girls whose boobs actually do cause earthquakes.
Sometimes I think this is what freaks the MRAs out most of all. Not that there are feminist women — but that there are feminist men. If it’s just a bunch of ugly shrill women demanding to be treated like, you know, human beings, a misogynist can easily dismiss them. But if men are on board, and in increasing numbers… that’s scary. Other menz have to be taken seriously. And maybe more to the point: Feminist men make it clear that misogyny isn’t necessary to be a man. And as more men become feminist, and start speaking out about feminism, misogyny gets pushed more and more into the margins.
Negative 10? That all you can do, ManChild? Try Absolute zero (as in “your brain activity”, which correlates quite accurately with your dateability).
Crap, I have now revealed that I paid attention at science class…
I’m actually something of an exotics expert with 7 years experience as an exotic rescue foster and rehabilitation home, and 3 years helping to manage my local zoo’s reptile collection. ;)
Leaning more toward lab animal medicine at the moment, but if I wind up in clinical practice I’ll definitely be working with small exotics.
No, you eviscerated yourself when you made this claim without any supporting evidence at all. How is what you did any different than a creationist claiming ‘God created the world 6000 years ago’ ?
Aw, c’mon guys! I didn’t want anyone to respond to him and see how many times he’d reply to himself about how unfuckable I am. You’re ruining my fun.
I do love it when an easily intimidated man’s first line of defense against a woman is to wail about how they’d never touch her with their dick. Regardless of the illegitimacy of the argument, it’s unlikely to have any effect on her self esteem when it’s directly contracted by her experience.
Kudos to you either way! I’m an RVT and have the privilege of working with two exotics vets so all my scaly critters get taken care of. Sadly though, may have had a snake that went through 3 month quarantine with no issues pop up with crypto 6 months later. Worried that I’m going to have to euthanise all my hatchlings/juvies because of a stupid mistake on my part. :/
No; she’s in a happy relationship, has given no indication of being poly, lives nearly a thousand miles away, and I don’t know how appealing she’d find me.
Not that it should matter. >.>
Give him a break, he’d have to take his shoes off to count higher than that.
Assuming this is true, which it’s not, why, precisely, should Julie give a fuck? Is there something awesome about being attractive to 99% of men when you’re already married and living the dream?
I’m proud to be a part of that. ^.^
I’d like to come in here and say something brilliant and pithy to sum up how repulsed I am by the tweets you were subjected to, but the only phrase that comes to mind is “Christ, what a bunch of assholes!”
Some of us aren’t interested in attracting or being attracted to 99% of any population. I take that back, I’m interested in being attractive to 100% of the population that consists of my wife.
So, although you think Jen is nutty for caring enough to write this post, you cared enough about Jen’s post that you felt inspired to write the “I care that you care enough that other people think you care (but you don’t actually care) about their opinions on your attractiveness” post.
Because there’s no way to show someone how silly they are for writing a post except by commenting on their post.
Bravo?
omg, you trolled me so hard! What a fool I am! /sarcasm
I was merely making a point of the pointlessness of the discussion. People who say they don’t care, generally care the most I find.
But you’re obviously right, I FELL FOR IT!!!!! OMG!!!!1111
LOL how’s that petard treating ya?
Every day I wake up and say, “Oh, I ever so hope that today will be the day that I am able to make myself attractive to Roosh, David Williams, lushfun, Profesor Mentu, Beppo Venerdi, Beta Male, Danger and Play, and SBN1! If they don’t want to date me, whatever shall I DO? My life has no meaning if they do not want and approve of me. Please, God, make today the day that random men on the internet whom I have never met and probably will never meet make my life complete!”
Right? It’s actually the opposite when you’re enspousinated. Getting hit on is awkward and never a pleasant experience. It usually plays out a little something like this…
Guy at bar: “Hey, I love tall redheaded Amazon women!”
Me: “Hooray, lucky me. Have a nice night.”
Guy: “Let me buy you a drink.”
Me: “Let me save you time and money; I’m married.”
Guy: “Whoa, whoa, whoa! I’m just trying to be friendly!”
Me: “Okay, but no thanks.”
Guy: “STUCK UP FAT BITCH!”
Tell us more about your “modeling”, Julie.
Was it some kind of weird fetish site?
It happens in all aspect of our lives. As we focus on one area others are neglected. A man working to be rich will neglect his health and relationships – his looks will suffer too. Same with a woman working to be highly educated.
You have chosen to focus on your education. The time and effort required to do that will mean less time and effort for anything else including taking the time and effort to look feminine. This is all that chart really states. It’s not an attack on women that have chosen to be educated it’s an observation of the result.
Personally, I have nothing against women that choose to make their career the central focus of their life. I just don’t see any benefit to being in a relationship with one. What is it that someone like you would offer me? I don’t need your education. Your education and advance knowledge offers me very little in practical terms. And this is true of most men they just won’t say so because it’s not PC.
I dated a VP of American Express and when I stopped seeing her she wanted to know why. I said your priorities are as follows:
1. Your career.
2. Your education.
3. Your dog.
4. Your friends.
5. Your family.
And I am somewhere down there after No. 5. What is it that you possess that I need or want? What will you contribute to my life? What benefit do I receive by sitting on dates listening to you bitch about your work and crazy friends. All relationships have to have a symbiotic component. You give something to receive something. As Western women become more like men what they have less and less to offer in a relationship with them. I don’t need more of what I already have: education and money. I want a woman that will compliment me not supplement me.
I wouldn’t date you primarily because a woman that has chosen to focus on her career has very little to offer someone like me. Now, there are men, that have bought into the American rat race and need a double income to keep keep up with Jones. For these men, women like yourself may offer a decided advantage. Someone may also just click with you – chemistry. That’s what happened with me and Miss VP. I gave into “chemistry” but I couldn’t deal with all of the other issues.
PS You seem like a nice enough person to me. Nothing I have said is a direct attack on you personally and if it does come across like that then I apologize.
When will bigots understand that we are happy when they announce that they don’t want anything to do with us?
We don’t meet your shallow standards? Good, I am glad that shallow people self-select themselves out of my dating pool. Less hassle for me.
Well, Julie, as a feminist, went out of her way to inform us that she used to be a “model”. She used her body to get ahead in life.
Therefore her beauty is inarguable and she has special powers to tell us what men find attractive.
I just want to know what kind of model.
herpasperser, didn’t you read the OP?
Thanks for providing us with the lulz.
What an insecure, pathetic troll.
Probably also the same guys who say “I’d fuck that”, of a woman they’ve just been making fun of.
It’s worth pointing out for those that don’t know, Roosh is not the ordinary run-of-the-mill misogynist. He doesn’t just insult women’s appearances. He doesn’t just claim educated women are masculine. His website and his previous comments have been practically pro-rape. He encourages PUA techniques which are so close to rape that there is no real difference. He is an utterly terrible human being.
What a strange world you live in. When I don’t care about something, and say that, I mean that I do indeed don’t ‘care’. Whatever is being said doesn’t bother me as intended, and instead likely amuses me.
FIFY
5000 whining atheists vs the Great Prophet
ottawaskeptics.org/forum?func=view&id=4560&catid=3
add some comment moderation to your BS
What, you think it takes more than pointing and laughing to dismiss unevidenced bullshit?
Hint: If you want a more thorough takedown, supply some evidence for your claims. Otherwise, dismissal is all you will get. And all your unevidenced assertions deserve.
I claim no favor in Jen’s response, i was merely pointing out an observation. Silence in what? You act as if this small group of men wants to infringe on Jen’s civil liberties… they don’t. Roosh, made a post detailing the category of women he does not find attractive and more masculine, of which Jen felt she fell into this category and took the post personally. Then in a response to “point and laugh” at something she didn’t agree with, they did the same to her! I guess we are all victims on the internet.
End of an era? I’m not sure what you are referring to as patriarchy is already dead, more women graduate from college than men, there are more women in the workforce than men, more men are out of jobs in this recession than women. You have mislabled me was someone who is down for some cause, which i’m not.
I know you think you are standing up for some grand ideology but the real joke is on you, you’ve already won this battle, by giving it lip service you are giving it an audience.
Perhaps we’re being to hard on them. To adapt something John Oliver said, these guys actually FACILITATE discussions within the Freethought community. When they saunter into a discussion about sexism, misogyny, and harassment and vomit up their vile and unlettered opinions, they allow the rest of us to go “well, we’re not going to bother listening to these assholes” and we’re already starting from a point of agreement!
I have to reject the argument that we should just ignore these jackasses. The more light on these idiots the more cultural white-space they need to operate gets denied to them. That white-space, incidentally, is what helps the rape culture fester. And, if we’re VERY lucky, if they start dealing with more push-back we may prevent susceptible people from being dragged into their camp. Less likely, but still ideal, we might see some tergiversation* within their own ranks.
*That’s my hundred dollar word for the week.
Would you piss off already?
Don’t worry about it, puberty arrives late with some males, just give ’em another ten years and they might be “all growed up” and develop an interest in pick-ups!
That is one way to view it. However my post was not about stating how much “I don’t care about the I don’t care post post” but merely an observation of she must care at least enough to post about it again.
I was making the point of why put energy towards something you don’t care about?
Hopefully that better articulates what I was trying to get across.
Wow you got me good! Well played sir.
Are you kidding? It involves the runway, designer fashions, and getting your hair just right – after all, part of getting a PhD in Microbiology is developing the right culture.
A -10, I mean bravo! The Elephant man at least got a 0, and he was the standard 0 was based on. I feel proud to have looked at your picture and not turning to stone.
Keep up the good work and one day you may slide even lower down the scale!
When you say you want a woman as a complement, what exactly do you *want* from a woman.
Because as a woman, I’m looking for a partner. I’m educated (RN equivalent for animals- radiography, phlebotomy, anesthesia induction/maintenance/recovery, splints/bandages, dental cleanings, etc etc) and I don’t dress up pretty especially on days I work because spending lots of time on makeup when I’m going to get licked, or potentially peed on, is beyond pointless. I talk about my job with my boyfriend. He tells me about his day. We enjoy similar activities, and have personalities that blend very well. He knows how important my animals are to me, but understands that despite the times when they take priority (such as feeding/cleaning day of the snakes, or when one of the critters is sick) that doesn’t mean I don’t love him.
What I want in a man is someone who loves me and my quirks. Someone who will help me when I ask for it, and will ask me for help in return. Someone who will hold me when I’m down, and who wants me to hold him when he’s down. Someone who will take care of me when I’m sick, and whom I can take care of. Someone who will push me to do all I can, and whom I can push in return.
Mmmm, no no no, Nomad77, that’s far too long. Let’s clean that up a little for you…(editeditedit)…there! Here’s all you needed to say:
“It’s all about MMMEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!”
An observation with absolutely 0 evidence to support it. It’s just literally pulled out of some dude’s ass.
How the fuck do you know that this is true for “most men”?
Oh, wait, I know…you think it’s true for you and are projecting your bizarre worldview onto “most men.” Get a life, dude. We don’t need you to speak for us.
It’s also clear to me from your comments that you have a particularly twisted view of relationships. Do you go into a relationship asking what a potential partner would ‘offer you’ in ‘practical terms?’ That’s pretty messed up. It’s fine if you personally want to think this (good luck finding a partner though!) but don’t you dare project your bizarre fantasies onto ‘most men.’
If you won’t date an educated woman because you think she has nothing to offer you, why would you think that any woman should want you (an educated man)? After all, by your logic, there is no benefit or contribution that you will bring to the table, and you have not given anything in order to receive something. All the other things that one might cite as a reason to date someone (kindness, similar interests, similar passions, fun to be around, interesting to talk to, loving, generous, truth worthy, you find them attractive, supportive, etc etc) are completely absent from your list and are not dependent on whether or not a person (man or woman) is educated.
Unless, of course, you are on board with a woman marrying you solely because you are educated and have money (because the only thing men can or need to offer is education/money), in which case perhaps your standards work. However, I doubt you would agree to this. My guess is that you would not like a woman who was marrying you for solely money, and I’d further venture that you want a woman who wants you based at least MOSTLY on your personality. If this the case, I don’t know why you think this would not apply to women, educated or not.
Before I got to the end of this post, I was already composing a little reply in my head. It went something like this:
“Anytime you post something like this, my immediate response is to share that I find you very attractive. I quash this response, though, because I know that I’m just playing into the exact same system of value that they are. I’m just smart enough to be attracted to smart women.”
But then the second half of your post was basically a more detailed version of what I was intended to say. So thanks for stealing my thunder, Jen! >:(
Isn’t this blog evidence enough?
Ms. McCreight is unattractive (as evidenced by all the men recoiling in horror at her picture) and obviously unhappy (as evidenced by her blog, in which she endlessly complains about life).
In fact, I’ve yet to find an attractive and happy woman who embraces feminism. Could you find one for me and prove me wrong?
Why should a woman consider a relationship based on what she has to offer you? It sounds like the only thing you have against women who focus on their career is that you think that necessarily precludes them from focusing any attention on you. What do you have to offer them, that they should shift their focus so?
What benefit does she receive from ranking you higher on your arbitrary list? What should she have given you that would convince you that she had something other than nothing to offer you? Sufficient compliments? Why should she compliment you? What do you have to offer her?
Sounds like a lucky escape on her part.
Step one: Disregard any arguments a woman has made and the content/quality of her writing/speaking/blogging/sciencing.
Step two: Reduce her worth to whether or not you’d fuck her.
Step three: “There aren’t any problems in the skeptic community with misogyny! You’re making too much of a thing out of it! Bitches need to grow a thicker skin!”
Step four: ???
Step five: Profit
Well, my faith in humans as a sapient species has been restored I can tell you.
You’re apparently too dense to understand this from the post itself, so I’ll try to spell it out for you. It does not hurt my feelings if someone calls me ugly or unfuckable because 1. I know it to be false 2. I don’t care what an asshole thinks of me. I do care, however, that idiots like you perpetuate a culture where you thinking shaming women by calling them fat and ugly is an effective way of silencing dissent and controlling the behavior of women. So while you didn’t make me go cry in a corner, I do think it’s important to point out how freaking stupid and misogynistic you fuckheads are.
Make more sense?
Stupid little side note because I’m a huge nerd:
In D&D, -10 means you’re nearly impossible to hit. So their misogyny just bounced off of you. Nyar.
Would the -10 be the equivalent of having drunk Klatchian coffee and becoming knurd?
Because if 0 is incredibly ugly, and 10 is super attractive, if you’re as far away from incredibly ugly in the other direction, does it not become a thing of beauty in an of itself, if for no other reason than sheer awe?
So if we have drunk sober and knurd, then we should also have pretty ugly and ytterp, right?
If this is overly weird, I blame my codeine cough syrup. It makes thoughts strange.
Attractive? Not attractive?
You have a boyfriend, most of these a**holes probably have a relationship with their right hand…
Where on your list of priorities is your boyfriend? Sounds like he’s in the top 5. And I agree, you shouldn’t have to dress up to go to work. Ultimately what matters is that you and your partner have a relationships that works for both of you and it sounds like you have. Congrats! :)
>Two, the point of these posts aren’t for people to swoop in and heal my bruised ego by telling me how hot I am. My ego isn’t bruised…
Just to add a big “Amen!” to that.
Thank you.
Now, please get back to complaining about how pointless all this discussion is. I do so enjoy laughing at you.
Aaaaaaaargh….. painful pun is painful.
Hmmm…I am sure all of my ex-girlfriends and, for that matter, all of my female friends would disagree with you :)
You’ve outed yourself as an even bigger nerd. -10AC is a THAC0 convention from the old days of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Wait.. I’ve just outed myself as the kind of nerd that gets that… DAMN YOU THAC0!!
You’re the one who made the assertion. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that there are absolutely no happy and attractive women who find value in feminism.
Right, the battle is already won, which is why we never see sexism, like guys declaring women untouchable because they don’t meet a particular male definition of femininity.
I also heard that racism vanished the day Obama was elected.
More men are out of jobs, likely because men still get paid more than women on average.
So if you have 50 workers, and are going to let 10 of them go and they all do the same job… you’re going to let go of the 10 who make the most money as that will save the most money. Odds are, most of those 10 will be men.
He’s just responding to what women want.
90% of rape victims experience orgasm during the attack.
BOSTON – A new study to be published in next month’s Journal of Clinical Psychiatry is causing controversy in the psychiatric community for some of its unexpected findings. The study, titled “Shame and Guilt in the Aftermath of Sexual Attack”, verifies much of what we know about the mental health of rape victims. However, one observation in particular is raising eyebrows. After analyzing the anonymous transcripts of over 5,000 post-rape counseling sessions, the authors point out that almost all female rape victims experience orgasm during the attack.
Asked for comment, Dr. Herschel Liebowitz, one of the authors of the study, said, “Millions of years of evolution has hard-wired women to be attracted to strong, dominant, and aggressive men. Unfortunately, rapists exhibit an extreme form of these characteristics, even if only temporarily, and this causes an unexpected and involuntary physiological response in the victim.”
Researchers focused on the psychiatric impact of this involuntary response. “Rape victims in general tend to experience an overwhelming sense of shame and guilt”, noted Dr. Liebowitz. “This study finds that the guilt is not a result of the attack necessarily, but rather her own response to the attack. Intellectually, she is disgusted at being violated by an anonymous attacker. But physically, her body seems to have welcomed the attack in the form of sexual climax or orgasm. We believe this contradiction in feelings is the primary source of their shame and guilt.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38566570
Calm down and just try think logically for one minute. If I spent 100 hours a week working and 40 hours sleeping, how many hours do I have left to do anything else?
Hell yes.
You are correct. At least 30% of men will disagree with me or consider my views not representative of them.
Ok!
Based solely on your comment, I’d say you rate slightly below the dog, too.
Absolutely. The other problem with going the creepy route in defense of somebody is that it validates the very impulse the other side is indulging in.
“Physical attractiveness is the most important metric for dealing with women. She’s ugly, so she’s worthless.”
“Nuh-uh, she’s totally hot, so she’s totally worth paying attention to.”
You’re doing the right thing calling misogynistic idiots out on their BS, but you’re feeding right into the vile ideas they’re using for top-cover in their attacks.
The point is not how educated a woman is, it’s where she places that in her list of life priorities. If a woman cannot place me and our relationship in her top 5 like I do then no I don’t want to be in a relationship with her.
Even if that is true, the fact that you’d cite it as support for rape-esque PUA techniques makes it clear what a subhuman you are.
^This
I grew up on the Internet, and for the longest time I accepted the unwritten rules regarding this kind of shit. They want a reaction from you, don’t give it to them. Don’t feed the trolls.
He who is affected the least is strongest.
But despite the value I had always placed on being disaffected, I’ve come to realize that a lot of other people have a much more difficult time than I do in dealing with these dicks. When the Internet says “tits or GTFO,” I always found it distasteful, but I thought not letting it bother me was the best way to deal with it.
But that’s not what I want. I want women to feel just as comfortable online as I do. Fuck ‘internet culture.’ Fuck being disaffected. I’d rather get rid of the people who make the Internet a difficult place for women, than the women who just want to hang out and be cool dudes.
Personally, I have nothing against men that choose to make their bigotry the central focus of their life. I just don’t see any benefit to being in a relationship with one. What is it that someone like you would offer me? I don’t need your self-pity and hate. Your lack of empathy and advanced misogyny offers me very little in practical terms. And this is true of most women they just won’t say so because it’s not PC.
Why do you hate men, so much Nomad? Why assume they’re all terrified little misogynstic cowards?
Did anyone ask Jen if she was interested in these fine specimens of manhood?
Usually turning someone down requires them to have propositioned first…although admittedly I have seen people going round clubs saying “Wouldn’t do her, wouldn’t do her, would like to do her” so you can never tell
LOL wow. I thought you were just a silly little bigot. But, now I see you’re on the Unhinged Rape Apologist spectrum.
Typical, of course, for an MRA to be a rape cheerleader.
WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
Because rape victims’ bodies have betrayed them, they WANT to be raped?! Congratulations, asshole. You’ve proved that I can still be shocked by rape apologia.
Let’s see. What is more interesting to read about:
Horrible day/stupidity encountered rant with humorousness injected, or “OMG today was super speshul shiny awesome!”.
I’m a happy person, but I tend to rant/tell funny (or gross) stories online as they’re more fun to read about.
Let me tell you what she escaped to. She went back to her ex-boyfriend that had cheated on her but was rich. She quit her job at AmEx after marrying him and having two kids. And we are still friends :)
If you think I hate women like Roosh. You would be wrong. Whether you understand this or not. I am actually working in my own way on behalf of women. The difference is that I am dealing with reality. I want to construct a relationship paradigm that will really work for the women and girls I love today and in the future. What we currently have is dysfunctional for a large percentage of men and women and shouting and screaming at each other solves nothing.
Because every single one is imaginary therefore you can pretend they always agree with you.
Actually, Mabus, why don’t you go back to prison already? You be in de DUNJON!!ELEVENTY
LOL exactly how much bullshit do you have studffed up your ass dude? You just keep pulling it out and out and out and out like that stale old magician trick.
100 hours a week? So you’re working 5 twenty hour days? Or 14 hour days everyday during the week?
I’m considered ridiculously busy and I put in a 60-70 hour week. Hyperbole is not your friend in this discussion.
More importantly, do you know what hyperbole means? Your posts are a bit…. unreal.
But why? There’s literally nothing shocking about a waste-o-jizz bigotted coward who thinks rape is something to engage in for fun.
he’s an MRA/PUA. They’re ALL like that.
Hmmm, link doesn’t work. Check. MSNBC site search finds no results. Check. Google Scholar search doesn’t turn up anything for Herschel Liebowitz. Check. General google search turns up MRA cesspits. Check.
Also, expecting to be the center of your partner’s life (especially since the economy has made it difficult for most families/partnerships to be single earner) is not just unrealistic, it’s downright stupid.
I’m not certain if you hate women or not. You certainly seem to exude a sense of entitlement to their attention that is creepy and condescending. Your use of the phrase “Western women” implies to me that you could be one of those guys who believes that foreign women make better wives and girlfriends because they’re less “uppity” and assertive. You naturally assume that the relationship paradigm YOU prefer is necessarily the best paradigm for everyone, and that the majority of current relationships are dysfunctional. You take a lot upon yourself, telling your ex-VP friend what her own priorities were, and what other peoples’ priorities should be. What makes you qualified to do so?
Well, if you live in a dream world, what’s a few made-up sources?
You’ll have to excuse my density as your posts weren’t very clear and contained no such message. I wish you had included this response as part of your original post (minus the name calling). A concern about the possibility of culture that shames women. This would make a good discussion post. I’m glad you were able to elevate above your detractors and get this message out like an adult… oh wait, you didn’t congrats on stooping to their level in name calling.
No where did I imply intention of “making you cry in a corner” or join the Roosh people in name calling. Just searching for a reason as to the point of this post, thank you for providing it.
I don’t have a ‘list’ of priorities. I have a nebulous cloud of priorities that is pretty much “health/welfare of living entities in household” and “job” and “Family”. There is no set order of precedence. When I’m at my job, my job is the most important thing. When I’m with family, family is most important. As my pets depends on me to remain *alive*, they have priority when they need clean housing, water, and food.
You also didn’t answer my question at all. What are you looking for in a woman? What makes a woman your complement?
Hell.
Fucking.
Yes.
That MSNBC link does not exist. Try trolling a little smart next time, motherfucker.
If so, I would rout for your Platinum Medal. Alas, all I can afford is a small donation. Maybe it’ll pay for the ribbon? Otherwise I will keep myself out of your love life for several reasons, one of which is that you already seem to have a good one. May it ever be thus.
I’m glad we can increase the pain of rape victims by using the basic fact that their bodies are going to respond as a matter of course, regardless of how humiliating, painful, and dehumanizing the experience is. This is the kind of thing that only compounds the levels of guilt and shame that people experience after a rape, and makes their recover that much harder. So fuck you on that front.
However, anyone vile enough to dabble in misogynistic crap like this isn’t likely to understand anything outside of their limited, most base desires anyway, so let me put it into terms you might get. Soldiers going into Iraq after 2003 used to get briefed on how to survive if they were separated and captured by the insurgency. One of the things male Soldiers were taught was that they might get forcibly sodomized by their captors, and the fact that they might experience an erection and ejaculation isn’t a sign that they took any physical pleasure from the experience. Its this same idea that if you have a physical reaction to rape that you were somehow consenting that keeps a lot of male victims from coming forward. Suffice to say that doesn’t help with the suicide statistics any. So congratulations. You make EVERYONE worse for knowing you and your vile ideas.
It would be interesting if that study actually existed. But it doesn’t. A search on Journal of Clinical Psychiatry for the author “Liebowitz” does not bring up the article, nor could I find it scanning the issues between 2009 and now. The only Dr. Herschel Liebowitz I could find was a psychologist who was primary interest was how the mind and misinterpret objects in low light. Nothing he did had anything to do with rape. Most of the articles from that journal that deal with rape, are taking about post traumatic stress disorder.
Considering that the first reference to this “study” I could find was in 2010. It should be out. You should have a complete reference and not some broken MSN link.
So complete reference please, or GTFO.
I was so confused when the THACo rules changed.
<..>
I was a teenaged geek.
I’m sorry I’m not more patient with people who feel the need to come to my blog and patronizingly tell me what I should and shouldn’t put forth time blogging about.
‘Herschel Liebowitz’ ? really ? This guy ? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Leibowitz)
You brain-dead MRA coprophiles are not even creative liars. Sheesh.
Is it just me or is the way he split up ‘women’ and ‘girls’ in his list of future loves incredibly creepy?
Dude, you should not be dating children. That’s wrong and also against the law.
Exactly. Top-cover can only exist if we allow people to move it into place. We do that by remaining silent when we remain quiet as people spout disgusting and misogynistic things.
Misogyny is pervasive amongst all ages. Don’t diminish the severity of the problem by implying that they are all pre-pubecent.
God how I wish people would “grow out of” their harmful bigotries when they become adults.
The poster has been banned for posting personal information of another commenter in the other thread, so sadly he won’t be able to provide a source here. I’m sure he’ll be emailing me the study ASAP.
@mythbri
Well, this whole thing started because of claims that attractiveness is inversely proportional to intelligence. In fact, since attractiveness is subjective and these children seem to find intelligence itself to be unattractive then intelligence = unattractiveness by (their) definition. Therefore claiming that there is no place in feminism for attractive women amounts to claiming that there is no place in feminism for unintelligent women.
So take that feminists!
Pity the prophet didn’t see that court-order coming.
What I am looking for from a woman are as follows:
1. Love/affection – if you are constantly stressed and tired you can’t provide it.
2. Sex/femininity – if you are constantly stressed and tired you can’t provide it.
3. Companionship/activities (let’s go do something) – if you are constantly stressed and tired you can’t provide it.
I don’t need someone to tell my troubles to. I don’t bring my work related problems home. I don’t need someone to push me to achieve more. I don’t need a “business” partner. But that just me, and while I representative a certain segment of men I do realize that I do not represent all of them.
The article doesn’t exist. I check the journal’s website. It’s not there.
The name of the author is real, but he was interested in how the mind misinterprets things in low light, and he hasn’t been actively publishing since 1994 (He’s dead now.)
Oh noes! She USED her body? To GET AHEAD IN LIFE? THE HORROR!
You know who else uses their body to get ahead in life? Every-fucking-body you nimrod. Brains are part of the body. Arms and legs are part of the body. Unless you’re making a living as a disembodied consciousness, you’re also using your body to “get ahead” in life.
Indeed. And even if he linked to the actual study – as opposed to some likely-made-up “news article” ABOUT the study – I don’t know how he or anyone could possibly think it would make rape okay. How can ANYONE think that ANYTHING can excuse rape? Disgusting. Joke’s on him, because his comments only serve to make me a more vigilant feminist. Us feminist men need to continue countering this bullshit.
He is a prissy little coward hiding behind his sticky keyboard like all other MRA folk.
And THIS is why I find it so difficult to talk to any of the MRA scumbags, even when they’re playing nice. Scratch an Men’s Rights Advocate, find a Misogynist Rape Advocate. So fucking often.
this is why I can honestly say I hate men. I would love to say that this shit doesn’t hurt, but after being told over and over and OVER again that my one purpose in life is to be physically attractive to men, and being told I’m a fucking failure for being ugly, it’s really hard not to feel like shit. I hate feeling like nothing I’ll do in life will matter because I am ugly. I honestly wish I did not give a fuck, but I do. Which is why I’ve always admired you, Jen.
“You know who else uses their body to get ahead in life? Every-fucking-body you nimrod. Brains are part of the body.”
But women don’t have those. Especially fat ones.
No, actually it doesn’t make sense… When you’re on the internet, you’re going all sorts of movements that you’ll disagree with, there was even a Cracked article about it just today: http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-unhealthy-mentalities-internet-turned-into-movements/ (#3 is the group you pointed to). The reason that you chose to attack that particular post rather than view it as representing of a community of guys who happen to hold that opinion and nothing more suggests that it did get to you (from all the vast variety of blog posts that would trigger than response: http://xkcd.com/386/).
I’ve been studying that community for nearly a year now, there’s really more to them than this one post, much of it originating from the fact that they found that women are more prone to sleeping with them when they’re being jerks. Also, they really are only concerned with women’s appearance and feminine attitudes, which is why they judge you only based on your looks and concluded that you’re not someone they’d be interested in as a romantic partner. It’s not nice, but as you said, it doesn’t actually matter to you since you can easily find guys who are not like that, and are happily in a relationship. They’re still entitled to their opinions and preferences though, the post you mentioned is hardly the problem with them (it’s the “how to weasel yourself into having sex with a girl who’s not interested in you” that’s far more concerning).
BTW, not that it matters but I’m a girl and in a PhD program (currently procrastinating from finishing writing my dissertation, actually… you’ll get there, don’t worry). I also always assumed that guys should care mostly about my personality and intellect, but found that they’re more prone to want me for my looks (lets just say that I’ve been genetically lucky). Guys do care about looks, it’s just the way they are, only difference is what their preferences are or where their threshold is. Trying to shame them into not caring about looks is even less effective than them trying to shame you as a way of controlling your behavior, because for them it’s not even something that they can control (they can control their being nasty about it, but they can’t control what they find attractive). So either you can decide to really study the depths of the male mind by trying to make sense of them, or just forget about them and carry on your graduate work like a good grad student (I’d also recommend PHD comics in case you want to take more of a procrastinating direction, just be warned that it greatly increases the amount of time it would take you to graduate…).
One can only hope!
I am not assuming anything. I look around me at the marriages and relationships and I can honestly say that less than 20% are really working, that the people are happy. Sure, on the outside they put on a good show but once you get to them and they open up about how they really feel, it’s a different story.
When I refer to “girls” I am talking about my daughters. What you and I believe does not matter in the end. The only thing that matters is what works in reality.
Our modern relationships constructs are not working and I have only to look around me to see that. Doesn’t take a genius or any fancy psychological analysis. Personally I think women should have all the rights and options they want. They just have to also be willing to accept the real world consequence of those choices. Other cultures understand this better than we do.
Thanks for making me laugh. :) I shall from now on imagine these creeps’ arguments in the voice of the Underpants Gnomes.
They’re just holding out for their ideal, refusing the rest of us their perfect sperm.
Trufax.
So what you want is a woman whose sole focus is… you.
I’m constantly tired/stressed. I still provide love and affection, because my boyfriend provides *me* with love and affection so I can de-stress. I’m not traditionally feminine (“tomboy” here) so I can’t provide that anyway, though I do sometimes dress up nice for my boyfriend. And.. you know… you could romance your way to sex which would get rid of the tired/stressed thing on the part of your partner… but no. *SHE* is the one to provide sex to *YOU*. And going out to do things is a great way to de-stress, depending on the activity.
If you don’t need someone to support you, then all you want is someone to worship you. That is an unhealthy relationship in the making.
And what “real world consequences” would those be?
One of my best friends, is a European business woman. Has a Ph.D and her own successful business. But she knows and she has admitted this to me: “I know I do not have much to offer a man.” She understands and accepts the choices she had made in life.
Same goes for men. A man can I say hey, I want to be free and do whatever I want. This will also limit the women that will be willing to have a relationship with him.
While we are free to choose how we live our life we are not free to determine the consequences of those choices.
That doesn’t reflect very well on you, does it.
Good little mra. Ignore everything she said which explains the first sentence, just to quote mine the first sentence.
And you wonder why we call you fucking cowards.
The rest of her sentence doesn’t justify hating all men.
So you’re basing this on… one woman. And ignoring the hundreds of thousands of women out there who own businesses and/or have degrees and are happily in relationships? Let’s see. I work with 3 female vets. One is happily single. One is married with two children. One is dating. The practice manager is married. My fellow techs are either in happy relationships, or happily single because that’s how they want to be. My own sister-in-law is a fellow RVT and she and my brother met through our study group. She makes more money that he does, is constantly tired and stressed… but she dotes on my brother and my brother dotes on her. They are partners. But you don’t want a partnership. You want a housewife from the 50s.
Take a look up thread, seems they don’t think there’s any reason ask… Grab your barfbag before you do. And: *tricker alert*.
sigh!
STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS!
The reason they don’t address your arguements is because they are not intetested. That is not what they are there for.
Did I say it did, coward? No.
I very clearly said that you’re a coward for ignoring everything she said just to quote mine. You’re also an asshole for using her post to whine about “misandry” instead of HER ACTUAL POINT.
Do you even know what her point was?
If nearly all men instantly judge you by how attractive you are, and you are unattractive/homely, and thus they judge you as being not good enough for whatever… it’s going to make you cranky at men in general.
Three close calls with rape/physical assault were enough to make me forever nervous about being alone with men I don’t know well. I can’t imagine what Anonie must go through and the level of pain it is causing her.
Absolutely not. The whole “don’t feed the trolls” logic is simplistic and helps perpetuate an environment that lets these assholes operate.
No retreat. These people need to be met with resistance every-time the comment. It won’t likely change the way they think, but it prevents them from building white-space for their vile ideas to take root and infect others.
Dear MRAs, PUAs and similar creeps:
You do know misogyny is an evolutionary dead end, right? While our species has a long way to go until all women get the same rights and respect as men, the trend is in our favor, not yours. Women continue to demand equality and respect, and more men like myself lend our voices in support.
Yours is a diminishing number (no matter how loud you howl). More men will take a stand against fools like you, and fewer women will wish to procreate with you. It’s only a matter of time until you become extinct, because your number of potential mates is constantly falling towards zero.
Enjoy the remainder of your unhappy and lonely life!
sigh!
STOP PRETENDING THIS IS ABOUT TROLLS.
NO ONE gives a shit about these chickenshit trolls. They are a means to an end, and – hilariously and wonderfully – they’re too clueless to realize it.
Who SHOULD you give a fuck about? The audience. The people who don’t know how to stand up against hate-mongers and rape-cheerleaders. The people who are conflict-adverse, but might like to know there are others out there who agree with them about hate-mongers and rape-cheerleaders. The people who might agree with hate-mongers and rape-cheerleaders merely because they haven’t seen someone stand up to them.
if Jen wants people to stop feeding the chickenshit trolls, SHE will say so. And only SHE can.
FTFY
Yes, Illuminata, I know exactly what her point was. However, it’s still wrong to ‘hate men’ because some men are assholes. It’s neither cowardly nor misandric to point that out.
Well, you are exposed to a segment of the population that has escaped me so far. Hey, at the end of the day what matters is if both people are happy great! I just don’t see this in my experience and it’s pretty extensive. Even outside of the US, I find a large percentage of relationships to be dysfunctional at the core even when looking all shiny at the surface.
Hey, they’re calling you ugly because they’re such pathetic losers they’ll never get a date with any woman with half your looks and intelligence!
I think living in a society that hates me as an ugly women justifies me to hate men
I just read your arguments and my replies to my boyfriend. You confuse him greatly. And he summed it up. “You don’t want a woman, you want a trophy.”
I then proceeded to thank him for not being a shithead. We both shared a laugh.
The grand parade of misogynistic twits all ready-to-use.
The grand parade of misogynistic twits, just need a fuse.
Well, then, hate that society. Don’t forget to also hate women, though, because they’re part of that society that hates you as an ugly woman. Equal opportunity hatred!
You can go right ahead and remove the /sarcasm tag from your statement, “What a fool I am.”
Sop, you felt compelled to drop by and inform everyone else what is worth discussing and what is not? Thanks, you ill-informed and patronizing twit.
Why would I blame women for what men have done to me?
Wow, Jen got tweeted by Roosh…
This PUA douchebag is very well-known over at ManBoobz – a search should indicate some of the more repellant things he’s said and done.
So, it’s totally on form for him to try to neg Jen on Twitter; it’s also no surprise to find Pick-Up Asseholes swarming over the blog. This guy has lots of misguided followers. m-/
Biggest nerd of all: I write 4 tabletop gaming articles a week, and am aiming to be a tabletop RPG game designer / fantasy fiction writer.
Yeah. Two jobs that don’t support a living wage! *air guitar!*
You think only men perpetuate the message that being physically attractive is the defining quality of a woman? It comes from women, too, at least in the ugly-woman-hating society that I live in.
I’m proud to be married to a wickedly smart, highly educated, gut bustingly funny, and gorgeous woman. She has been sheaperding me down the road of feminism for several years now. I’m glad to call myself a feminist.
It’s really distressing that you have daughters. I feel badly for them because their father is likely going to give them advice that makes them hesitant to go to college.
Remember, honey, no man will want you if you’re too educated. See, men need to be the center of your life. Everything you do should be for their benefit, not yours. If you spend all your time learning and working, you won’t have any time left over to massage his ego, put makeup on, and worry that you’re not doing enough to assure him that you have no interests outside of him.
I’m sorry that you, and other men like you, are ManToddlers who must be the center of mummy’s universe for your egos to remain unbruised. Thankfully, not all men are like you.
Do you realize you’re just piling on with classic “just shut up!” arguments?
– There’s not really a problem, so you shouldn’t be talking about it. You’re the only one with a problem.
– If you talk about it, you’re just making the problem worse. It wouldn’t be a problem if you didn’t talk about it.
– You’re only just looking for attention.
It’s all just ways of belittling someone so that you can ignore them and not consider their feelings whatsoever. “Oh, you got upset? Well FUCK YOU THEN, you’re worthless!”
Sitting right next to “just shut up!” arguments from other commenters of “You’re ugly/fat/unfuckable so your opinion doesn’t matter,” the responses to all of these posts PROVE THE PROBLEM. If you call out anyone for being sexist, a bunch of men come and pile on you and call you an unfuckable ugly attention whore whining about non-existent problems. Remember, if you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one barking loudest is probably the one you hit. If you feel the need to go bash and belittle someone who speaks against sexism, you might just be protecting yourself from evaluating your own sexist tendencies.
I’ve come to the somewhat tenuous conclusion that many of the men who say and think stupid sexist and misogynistic things don’t really hate women. It seems more like they do not believe women are fully autonomous thinking human beings; and this, in my opinion, is much worse than hating, and really does preclude any appreciation for the feminist position. People don’t tend to give up their beliefs very easily and all the rational discussions and arguments in the world will not move very many people from a long held belief; not to mention all the efforts folk put into finding and perceiving information that only supports their point of view. Also lesser beings are not as worthy of empathy and concern which leads directly to the notion that women are simply property or need fulfilling objects.
Sorry, but any culture that promotes viewing women as worthwhile only for their looks, access to their vagina, and their dainty femininity needs to be called out and criticized.
Dude, you just implied that because a woman’s body had a biological response to being raped that it’s totes ok, bitch must have wanted it anyway. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU???? Congratulations, I just about lost my lunch at that jaw-droppingly stunning display of rape apologia.
“A woman’s worth is based on her looks. Smart women are unfuckable. Women who don’t spend hours altering their appearances are disgusting. Patriarchy no longer exists.”
One of these things is not like the others…
I’m not going to bother reading all the comments because my mind is melty-
I was going to say I don’t often get to see the plaintive wails of rape apologists when challenged by a woman with more than two braincells to rub together.
“OH YEAH B.B.B.BUT YOU DUN MAKE MY PEEPEE HARD!”
That being said- being that I frequent videogame and tabletop gaming sites it’s not hard to run into unchallenged rape apologists.
:/
Reminds me of a middle school bully who picks on other kids because of low self-esteem.
My life got so much better when I realized that I’m really not all that attracted to guys who aren’t attracted to me. And, believe it or not, it’s “men,” not “Men.” It’s not some kind of organization that publishes little memos letting all members know what’s “in” this season.
That’s why they have to try to bash us a “white knights” who are either the real sexists for feeling the need to take up for them (which proves we think you poor women can’t do it on your own), or are just in it to get on your good side and get some tail, essentially surrendering our superior masculinity to you shrill whiners. Of course, again, weight of numbers falling on our side will eventually overwhelm them.
Actually no. Women overwhelmingly make up the “discouraged” job-seekers that aren’t counted in the national unemployment numbers. Basically, they can’t find jobs, so they’ve dropped out of the group of job-seekers entirely. Get your facts straight, MRA.
I don’t really get that. Well, I guess I kinda get that there’s a reflex to jump to the defense of your friends. But it really misses the point, when the point is that how you look doesn’t change jack shit about our interactions. I enjoy your blog because you are intelligent and witty and write about things that interest me. I enjoyed your presentation at Skepticon for similar reasons. And I enjoyed meeting you because you’re a pleasant person and you were very tolerant of my drunken ramblings. Those things (especially the last one) are what matter to me about a person. Not whether whether I want to stick my dingaling in their hoohah. So as long as nobody is actually asking me whether I think they’re attractive, I see no point in bringing it up. And even if they did ask I’d ask why, because what goes on in my head is kinda private.
On average Russian and European women are even more highly educated than American women and I don’t have any problems with most of them. And don’t worry about the education of my daughters they are getting one that is far more complete than a mere college education ;)
If he hadn’t been banned for that (deserved), he should have been banned for literally excusing rape.
Sure, they got issues, but attacking them is hardly a constructive way to deal with it. Unless all you want is to hear a bunch of other people telling you how you’re right, in which case yeah, that’s the way to go. You’re just making them even more convinced that women are evil and out to get them just for their “being male”, though, plus giving them an opportunity to remind themselves of what they’re going against, so you’re really just making it worse.
As usual, SMBC gets it right:
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2571#comic
You obviously don’t talk to a lot of women if you can’t find one who is a feminist…
<3
That is some hardcore victim blaming.
That’s kind of the thing. I mean, if you’re going for lowest-common-denominator blandly inoffensive attractiveness, I guess power to you, though basing your worth on pleasing the most strangers by being in their line of sight is sort of sad. Exceptionally attractive people tend to be polarizing, and confident people tend to not give a fuck what the majority thinks, and really only care about those they find attractive’s opinion. My partner thinks I’m damn fine, I still get invites to model from time to time, and damn, I feel good.
Now, I admit that looks do affect my level of attraction to people – at least partially – but those people seem to be utter morons. In an argument, or when responding to someone’s negative opinion, insulting that person’s appearance is pretty much giving up. It’s a resounding “I lose, you’re right, and in addition to that, I’m an idiot who can’t take criticism.”
Anyway, no matter how good looking someone is, if they’re a half-wit who can’t come up with a decently intelligent response, then they’re unattractive.
In addition, it’s nice to see another woman who doesn’t wear make-up, I hope there are more when I start up University.
Nomad77: So you want a maid whose life revolves around you. Gotcha. Totally not at all misogynist or emotionally unhealthy.
And regarding your belief that you can either be attractive or productive: Some of us are bright enough to walk and chew gum at the same time. Or work and moisturize, as the case may be. the fact that you seem to be soooo committed to your own work and believe it’s impossible to take care of your damn self makes me rather wonder what you look like.
Honey, a series of realdolls are not reliable witnesses.
Your priorities list obsession is bizarre and nonsensical. Most humans can actually handle varying priorities at a time, shifting them as is necessary from moment to moment. You’re just being sad and insecure that you might not be at the centre of
Mommywifey’s every waking thought.Wow. Not sure if they’re just being funny or they actually don’t get that intelligent (hetero/cis) women are thankful to be attractive to intelligent men rather than superficial simpletons. I’m sure they know that being sexy to a std-ridden guy who brags about f*cking random girls “raw dog” (read: masturbate “raw dog”) and who has no interest in intelligent people (either gender), is not your #1 dream, but since you can’t, #2 choice is being an intelligent, interesting scientist in a mutually loving relationship. If you were dumber and prettier, you could be clubbing and getting shitty-f*cked by drunk bros drugging you with their “axe” gel scent! (Roosh also brags about being a crappy lay.) Right?
I sometimes read these blogs because they are pretty entertaining for the complete irrational, emotional arguments they embrace. Although I’m starting to wonder if it’s not an overzealous feminist with too much time on his hands, trying to emulate PUAs to make them look more pathetic, it’s getting suspiciously irrational. Turing test? Anyway, if you take what Roosh writes at face value and assume that that’s what he means, then it’s pretty entertaining. It’s also a window into the way their rationalizing mind works. They have a really intense “you’re not firing me: I quit!” complex.
Women can’t find them repulsive (everybody knows that women don’t actually have sexual desires, when they don’t have sex with you, they are “withholding the sex” for power. When they want to have sex with other men than you, they are filthy, disgusting whores (and they still do it for power, since they only have sex so they can marry a beta and lock him into a cage to abuse of him- [argh! Cover blown! They found our plans!! uh, I mean: ^%$@#$%#$%#{}*^&P^U&U>”” (venusian language).
Ok, recapitulation. Roosh was not attracted to Jen after Jen was not attracted to Roosh (and found him to be a douche, supported by peer-reviewed evidence)! Bomb argument against feminazis! I’m rubber you’re glue! When a woman says “no”, she means “try harder”! It’s impossible that she might just not be attracted to you! The world revolves around you, if a woman doesn’t want you (only you, if she’s attracted to other men she is filthy filthy. And she accepts your “no means yes” hookups with high school girls gracefully, or questions being your domestic slave (mutual cost/benefit relationship amirite guys?), there’s something wrong with her.
PUA/MRAs often say that women are stupid [see post about Christianity being misandrist for more MRA wisdom]. Under their own admission, they only attract particularly dumb women (and they prefer that – there is a good argument in wanting your partner to be at your mental level). They say that women are “hypergamous”. Yet they only want to be with 18 year old, superficial women with low self-esteem (read: easily guilt-tripped into sex… middle aged guys tried that on me regularly when I was 16-17… It worked a few times, good on them. My agency has no room within my sex life, I’m just a receptacle for God’s seed.. As Roosh says: “no” doesn’t mean “no” (to these winners). Only stop if she says “stop”, and then guilt-trip her for not wanting to be raped), and of course actively chasing less-educated, being very focused on looks and very young girls means… women are hypergamous! I could go on, but I have better things to do.
How many women would want these guys? How many women want Roosh? If you asked that on your twitter, there would be a lot of “I’ll take Mitch McConnell first, thank you very much” answers (sorry for the image) or in Roosh’s lady-language: “gag me with a spoooooon!” Okay. So Jen and Roosh don’t want each other. Both of them think the other is useless. Jen is objectively bringing something to society (as opposed to Roosh). But that’s not the point. I support Roosh’s right to pretend to be a big stud. This isn’t anything new. There’s a reason why the guys who actually get laid are rarely the ones who brag about it.
So because MRAPUAs just said that they wouldn’t date you (I wouldn’t date you either, but somehow I can see your great intellectual/social qualities. Maybe it’s my contact lenses.) Or what about the comment saying that Jen doesn’t understand satire? So now it was all satire! Hahaha, Lenny Bruce, get out of this body!
Finally, this leads me to 2 question:
1) Do you believe there is any use for reason and logic in an argument with these guys? Should we even bother, or adopt a George Kennan attitude? (i.e. “Containment”: they are intrinsically irrational/paranoid, we cannot dialogue) I want to have this conversation with them, but they dismiss it right away for the sin of not being a men. It’s too bad America is missing this opportunity to double its scientific wonders output. There is no gender there, only innovation and enough dreaming.
2)I don’t know if it’s the internet effect (seeing the things I read on the internet as more prevalent in society than they really are), but do you people think North America has become more misogynistic in the last 5 years? I am in my mid-20s, not very old.
I’m curious if it’s a real trend. Seems like it to me, but I’m not sure if it’s nothing more than my own anecdotal evidence.
Hmm, I get the distinct impression that with the clowns, their hands, after tiring of faking it, took out some restraining orders.
Why, I have never heard of this approach before! Please, tell me more about constructively dealing with terrible ideas by not addressing them!
Hey, now! Let’s not insult third graders.
“Attractive and happy women have no use for feminism.”
Even if this were true – it’s fucking not – feminism would still be important! No matter where you draw the line between happiness and unhappiness or pretty and ugly, those “unattractive” and “sad” women are still PEOPLE with the same damn rights as the “attractive and happy” ones!
You can give this stupid argument the benefit of the doubt and it STILL fails.
For the sake of the flying spaghetti monster, Nomad, now I pity your friends and your daughters.
You do realize that you are likely insuring their inability to adapt to the economic market, right? The chances that they will be in single-earner households are vanishingly slim as the economic conditions keep rolling (and will, for the foreseeable future).
You couldn’t love them less. I mean, my non-existent god, man. You’re condemning them to being disrespected and unloved (the way that having a partner who is incapable of contributing to the family when times are hard tends to engender disrespect and undermine love by creating contempt), as well as being afraid to have a life where they can demand to be treated well.
What the fuck kind of parent are you?
And another account banned from r/TwoX for standing up for you :)
It is an honor, also twoX can burn in h*ck!
I hope you realise that this whole blog post is not about shaming guys for the fact that looks are a factor in their finding someone attractive or not.
It’s about the pack-of-wannabe-vultures behaviour that a group of random idiots on the internet exhibits: Their guru tries to “punish” a woman who happens to disagree with his demeaning opinions by posting a picture of her, declaring her unattractive and infering that this makes her generally worthless. The followers take this as an invitation to post hateful insults.
This is an attempt to bully Jen into silence. It ties in perfectly with Roosh’s general internet behaviour.
It’s this bullying behaviour is what Jen’s post exposes, and what Roosh and his followers deserve to be shamed for.
WHY are you wasting your precious blog space, giving free publicity to this filth? Look, it’s got to be hard on YOU, but *I* don’t need that ugliness between my ears, either! Let’s focus on solutions and stay the hell away from gutters, PLEASE?
You’re amazing. You make my feminist heart swell with pride (which is NOT the same thing as the erection that one guy got).
And do you apply this standard to men as well as women? As in, do you personally plan to put your wife/girlfriend above your career/education/etc, and do you hold that a man who does not do this would not have anything to offer a relationship? If so, then I feel that your post would have been better understood if you had said something along the lines of, “No person, male or female, wants to be in a relationship in which they are not a priority.” Because I think that is a very fair point. However, your original post presented this in the terms of “As Western women become more like men what they have less and less to offer in a relationship with them.” In this, it is not that the problem is a lack of care for one’s relationships, but that women don’t have anything to offer men if they become like men, whereas no similar statement is made about men (presumably because men still have something to offer to a relationship if the do not prioritize their relationship).
DoucheV seems to think it’s really effing important that women wear makeup. I’ll bet DoucheV has never tried wearing makeup himself. No, makeup is one of those things that only women need; men’s faces need no adornment, but women are ugly without lipstick and eyeliner.
If my clean face keeps guys like these from approaching me, then I’m doubly happy for the time I save every day that I don’t put on anything that might rub off.
Whoo, high five! I usually don’t blog-comment under my Reddit name to avoid the typical “THAT Saydrah or are you a satire?” thing, especially on posts by Redditors… but this one, I really couldn’t just ignore.
Seriously though, you come off as genuinely being secure enough not to be bothered by this. And as much as we all like to comment with “HA HA HA they think you care if they want to fuck you?” the reality is that, for many women, these comments would be deeply hurtful, even from strangers. For that matter, plenty of men are wounded by negative assessments of their appearance, too — just look at r/AmIUgly for insecurities of both sexes (and some really kind, thoughtful suggestions on improving appearance — it’s surprisingly a supportive subreddit). So I just wanted to say that I know from experience it takes some maturity to get to the point where you’re able to care as little as everyone SAYS they care about this kind of thing, and this post strikes me as genuinely secure and confident.
I’ve been outspoken and feminist on the internet since I was nine, so I’ve been through every stage of this — the initial shock that someone would go there, the “I have more sex than you!” self-defense (and its cousin, the “look how hot my boyfriend is!”), the learning that you’re supposed to SAY you don’t give a fuck if he thinks you’re ugly (but actually giving a lot of fucks because you’re 16 and have an eating disorder), the aggressively posting your least flattering pictures to show just how MUCH you don’t care, the reversion to posting pictures you feel good about, and finally the acceptance stage, where you realize and truly FEEL in your bones that this is just another thing that happens to EVERY WOMAN EVER online, and that it has absolutely nothing to do with you.
So basically, I want to praise you for being there, not in the “I don’t care but really I do!” stage. Cause that stage hurts. And it sucks. And every outspoken woman on the internet goes through it.
Wow the hypocrisy here! Feminism is about not allowing men to shame women and humiliate them to control them as some so vehemently spewed forth, yet all I hear from the defenders of this post and all feminist is the exact same thing against men, and women who disagree with their viewpoints.
The presumption that your worldview is the correct one, with out a rational understanding of reality is dangerous.
Have fun in the nerd haven this is where you can stomp and scream about how wrong I am, everyone else is, compared to your oh so enlightened viewpoints.
You are telling people how to think and act, again hypocritical because feminism is supposed to be battling that isn’t it? Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s wrong or incorrect or inaccurate. You’d think a gender that’s been so ‘oppressed’ would reckognize that.
You go on about educated/”Western” women having their partner way down on their priority list, and then conclude:
So that’s what a man is like, in your world view? Has money and education, but no time/energy/place on the top of the priorities list for his partner?
The women that this kind of man thinks he attracts are partial to the money and status they get off him, and not himself. The kind that uses the resources of the current partner to attract the next guy who has even more money and status.
Which is fine if both parties see the relationship as the business transaction it is, but I guess it’s not the kind of symbiosis you’re looking for.
Oh, and btw: Women with little education aren’t all caring, supportive, un-stressed, beautiful and committed to their partners’ happiness. Primarily because they also human beings who need to earn money to survive, only they do it in lower-paying, less comfortable and less satisfying jobs, so they have less money, time and energy to spend on anything, including their “femininity”.
This whole “she’s too educated” trope assumes that the only way for a man to get a woman to care about him is if she has no other options than total dependence on him (financially as well as in terms of what to focus attention on). Must be sad to feel so undesirable.
You are right, it was bullying behavior on their part, and completely in line with their behavior of criticizing feminists for their looks. However, in this case point they were not the first to attack – she wrote a blog posts about an old post by Roosh, ridiculing him for what he said about the reasons why educated women don’t turn him on, concluding with calling him “idiotic misogynistic jackass”. Then *her* followers take this as an invitation to post hateful insults. He saw that an in return posted “Would you date this girl?” with a link to her post, not to a picture. Then the pack mentality ensued on his end as well, with them being the ones to declare her unattractive as their reply. Then in a follow-up post (the current one) she attacked him some more, which resulted in him attacking more, plus the followers of each doing plenty more attacking. My point was that this attack/shaming behavior does not help either side, just increases the hatred on both, and drown out the various valid points that each side is trying to make. Had her post been instead about how to make young girls not feel like getting advance degrees would make them less attractive to guys, or a discussion about whether having a girlfriend more educated than they are might make a certain percentage of guys uncomfortable (how common it is, why those guys feel that way, what could be done about it), then I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t have attacked her in response, regardless of how she looks.
Oops, reply fail: This is in reply to Nomad77.
Careful Jen, I hear giggling is considered feminine. Those man-child MRAs will be all over you!
Because shaming misogynistic assholes for spewing their gender essentialist assholery in public for all to see is totally the same thing as “not allowing men to shame women and humiliate them to control them.”
That’s sarcasm, if you couldn’t tell.
No, Jen and other commenters here are pointing out the clear misogyny reflected in those nauseating Twitterfeeds. That’s not telling them how to think and act – although if they want people to quit pointing out their blatant douchebaggery, they could always quit saying douchebaggy things.
Doesn’t mean it’s NOT wrong or incorrect, either. Especially when there’s plenty of empirical evidence to back up feminist criticisms of the shit being spewed by MRAs.
Oppressed enough to recognize your pathetic logical fallacies and strawmanning. And if you try again, I’d highly suggest proofreading for spelling first.
To 2)
I’m not sure also, and have been wondering about this a lot.
There sure don’t seem to be so many openly misogynistic fuckwits in real life, and real life was (almost) all there was 20 years ago…
However, the more subtle backlash is definitely there. (E.g. with sexism dressed up as ev-psych, girl toys/clothes/TV, “proofs” that women are bad at tech/leadership/whatever, and the whole anti-sex/modesty/prudishness crap that becomes SO obvious every time you watch an 80ies movie.)
“Why should we hear about rape apologists and misogyny,” Rogi Riverstone whined, “Oh, I mean, it’s not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?”
Banning this miserable excuse for a human being is too mild a step (IMHO). His a$$ belongs in jail for cheerleading rape.
Ok! Deeeep breath for me.
If there are problems in our society’s relationships, why in the ever loving fuck is this not something that MEN have some responsibility in? Why is it that we women are supposed to make ourselves wholly dependent on another human being’s good will to meet our basic functions?
My mother did a chunk of what you are proposing. She went to school, met my father, put aside her own career goals to support him through his schooling and then to move to benefit his career but not her’s, became a stay at home mom, only worked part time after my sister and I were in our teens, that kind of thing.
And then my mother found out that my father had been sexually abusing my sister and myself. After the divorce, the only thing that kept us from losing our fucking house and kept food on the bloody table was my mother’s god damned Master’s Degree in counseling.
Let’s be clear: I do not think that women have to choose between a relationship and schooling/career any more than men do. But if you were right, if the only way I could get into a “successful” relationship was to jump into a situation where I had to choose between watching my kids be sexually abused and being homeless/starving/etc, I would choose to forgo “successful” relationships. There is NOTHING that makes the second choice worth risking. Nothing.
This has never been just about whether one would be more fulfilled as a stay at home parent or a career oriented person; it is also about wanting to know that if our husbands beat us, or if our husbands rape us, or if our husbands leave us for another woman, or if our husbands die, or if our husbands hurt our children, we are not trapped with no fucking way of supporting ourselves.
Maybe you can consider THAT when you’re trying to factor out what is wrong with our society’s relationships.
Clarification: Saying you want to be “in the top 5” is not the same as saying “I need to be above her career/education.” The former has the possibility of being reasonable; the latter basically can’t be, especially if you aren’t giving up YOUR career/education for your significant other.
You do realize that being constantly tired and stressed out are not (amazingly enough) a result of having a job or being educated? Specifically, having children necessarily means being constantly tired and stressed out. Not maybe means, not sometimes means, not means if you don’t do it right: If you have kids, you will be constantly tired and stressed out.
Now, I’m not saying that people shouldn’t have kids or that kids aren’t worth it (I firmly believe that things which make you constantly tired and stressed out can be more than worth it), but if what you want is someone who isn’t constantly tired and stressed out, you’re going to do WAY more than just have a wife with no job. Like, not have a wife who has kids with you, not have a wife who is/becomes physically ill, not have a wife that is/becomes mentally ill, not have a wife who finds staying home all day to be stressful and exhausting, not have a wife who worries about how she’ll survive if you die or start to treat her poorly, not have a wife who is subject to long term family issues (severe illness in the family, siblings who abandon their children for her to deal with, etc), not have a wife who has to figure out how you two are going to survive when you’ve lost your job, and not have a wife who is subject to any number of other real life situations.
In short, you’re going to need one of those anime style companion robots.
Why should she? That post about the unsexiness of Ikea furniture was utterly ridiculous, and it was entirely reasonable that she responded to it the way she did. I’m sure you’re right that if she hadn’t laughed at the stupidity of that post they wouldn’t have gotten so defensive, but that post was stupid, it should be laughed at, and their defensiveness idiocy isn’t the tragedy you seem to think it is. It’s just more laughable nonsense.
I don’t know what the hell definition of feminism you’ve been using, but in the real world feminism isn’t about being accommodating to harmful and irrational ideas.
Stop feeding the trolls?
But then who would ever talk to you, asshole?
This is not about trolling. This is about ACTIVE PROMOTION OF MISOGYNY.
You know who I hate more than misogynists? Apathetic assholes who whine and complain and tell women to shut up about the problems they have with misogynists.
Fuck you.
Because it’s clearly all about catering to YOUR preferences on Jen’s blog, amirite? Who cares about these silly misogynistic mumbo jumbo, it gives YOU a headache, so we should just shut up about it and frame the conversation to fit YOUR tastes, huh? Self-important much?
So, if someone says and/or does something hateful to you, not only do you have to endure the hateful thing, but you also have to say nothing about it and merely endure it?
That is absurd beyond all expression.
Jen doesn’t “have to” do shit.
No, the focus is not me, the focus is the relationship and the moment. I don’t live for my work. My work is there is provide enough money for me to live the life I want. And I want someone that feels the same way.
I am not demanding anything from anyone. I am not saying that ALL women should be like this. What I am saying is this is what I want from a woman and I don’t believe it is either unreasonable or self-centered. What it is, is a lifestyle, a life choice. I break meetings, neglect clients, delay projects between the choice of a woman I care about and my work, my work always loses. In my life, my relationships are always #1 or 2. They are my priority because more than anything else nothing enriches me more than the love of a woman.
Not this shit again.
In fact, I bet if she hadn’t posted anything at all, or ever started a blog, or been female, or been BORN, they wouldn’t have any problems with her whatsoever.
How DARE you tell people they need to slink around and coddle bigots who hate them for existing and for wanting to be treated like human beings.
How. Fucking. Dare. You.
You’re right, by golly! Jen must not waste the blogspace, for blogspace is in such limited supply! If we do not ration it carefully, we might run out, and if this happened how would we get pictures of Pixel?! O_O
Furthermore, while some might think that the important issue is how Jen wants to process being treated badly, this is not actually the case; instead, the focus must be on how it will make us sad if we are told how Jen is being treated badly.
The mighty bloggods have spoken.
@Nomad77
In what possible way is your own personal preferences in regards to women relevant to this discussion EXCEPT insofar as you believe that women who do not adhere to your own personal preferences are somehow causing the destruction of modern day relationships?
Because let’s be honest: no one really cares what some random individual on the internet happens to want in a relationship for just themselves. Me? I think that liking computers, computer games, D&D and various other geekery are sexy. But, in the spirit of the aforementioned honestly, people on this board don’t care. Furthermore, if someone were to go on a massive rant about how men who do not like these things will never get laid because of how unattractive they, and how men who don’t like these things should pretend to like them even if they don’t, I would not pipe in with, “Well, liking those things really is a major plus for me*!” Why? Because whatever my personal preferences are, they are not applicable within a conversation that is indicating that said traits should be mandatory. The only issue of importance in such a discussion would be the absurdity of trying to mandate what all men like.
*I’m sorry, but I just can’t bring myself to present liking computers/computer games/D&D/ as a deal breaker; it just isn’t one.
He was trying to silence you. Men do this when backed into a corner. Other women will do it too. If one doesn’t have enough logic/reason to stop the woman in question, they then attack her looks/weight. It’s kind of sad, all around. It says a lot about how they view women (I’m more depressed when it’s another woman.), and it says a lot about how they’ve been damaged by society.
Hi,
I looked up your twitter that started the misogynistic rant. That was totally uncalled for and was very poor behavior.
I, however see no indication that he represents the MRA movement. Why you would make such an assumption is beyond my comprehension since you obviously are a person of higher education and normally such a person would hold themselves to a much higher standard.
I hope you are not espousing hatred for one group just because it is convenient for your doctrine. That is, after all, lazy thinking and unbecoming of academic pursuits.
I’ll be sure to have a look out for a retraction of your statement above and if not I will surely make sure my social circles are well aware of your “cursory” research :)
Cheers!
Is this like a threat or something?
> Because, you know, my life revolves around attracting and pleasing clueless misogynistic fuckwits. Oh wait, it doesn’t.
Your obsession with RooshV would seem to indicate otherwise.
Ildi, thank you so much for defending men, but let me just say – as a man – that we don’t need your help. Perhaps the fact that some women hate us is a problem, but in the grander scheme, it is a fairly minor one.
If you take a look around, you will see that men actually have it pretty good. While I can sympathize with you that it hurts to be despised just because of your gender, trust me when I say that your experiences of misandry are a molehill compared to the mountain of misogyny we are all steeped in.
Your energies are sorely misplaced here.
A threat followed by a :), the shittiest kind of passive aggressive threat!
Whoa, you’re a male?! Huh, I guess that’s some explanation for why you defend the author with such combative intensity, what they call “white knight”? Admirable in the general sense, although in this case you’re failing to see that the author is a vile bully and the entire purpose of her blog seems to be attacking others for their opinions (at least from the few posts I’ve seen so far). As someone who’s infinitely more intelligent than her, a far better scientist, with a solid understanding of human nature and view of the big picture, I can tell you that she’s not worth your dedication. All these also mean that I’m well aware that writing this here is only going to make you attack me some more and stand up to her and to combative feminists like her, it’s fine, I don’t expect to be able to actually affect anybody’s position by telling them that they’re wrong (see how that works? I mean, that it doesn’t?).
And when the opinions being espoused are utterly vile and worthy of criticism, this is a problem because….?
All evidence in your post to the contrary, but nevermind that, Jen’s being MEAN by calling out misogynists for their misogyny!
“Would you date this girl?” If I were a lot younger & unmarried, damn right I would date that WOMAN. If she would accept a date with me, that is — I don’t assume that she would. I like INTERESTING women.
I don’t even think one identifies as an MRA or PUA until they’ve attained utter failure status.
No no, Jen’s being STUPID for thinking that calling out (aggressively) misogynists for their misogyny is going to somehow make things better. Normal human behavior/psyche really, I probably wouldn’t have bothered commenting on it had I not been in a super-procrastinating mood. Also, I didn’t bother providing any evidence for my claims, obviously, just stated that this is the way things are and the cause of my perspective on this blog and in general.
Dude, your movement has been declared a series of hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center. It’s not slander when it’s true, asshole.
Two blog posts + a couple of tweets = obsession
I must be “obsessed” with the weather, since I tweeted about it a couple of times.
Because calling out misogynists ever so politely and with strict deference to their delicate feelings totally works. If only we’d been nicer to those assholes in pointing out their asshole behavior, maybe we’d have convinced them to quit treating women who don’t fit their narrow definitions with such contempt, because standing up for ourselves is just so aggressive and off-putting! Really, you might want to quit griping that string of pearls so hard, it’s about to fall apart from all the clutching.
Some people respond to having their faces rubbed in the stupidity of their own prejudices by stopping to think about it, some people respond otherwise. “Normal human behavior” encompasses a rather wide range of responses. Sweeping generalizations don’t do anything to bolster your claim here, other than that you’re too damn lazy to bother with specifics and evidence to back up your assertions.
So nice to hear that this is nothing more than a trivial, diverting intellectual exercise for you. From those of us who have to live with the reality shaped by these shitheads and the culture that allows them to fester like an unchecked pestilence, I offer a hearty “FUCK RIGHT THE FUCK OFF.”
Yup, intellectually lazy as hell. Thanks for confirming that.
You must be right, you’re an anonymous internet commenter!
Honestly, jealous much? Perhaps you should go start your own blog, given your infinite intelligence and ‘far better’ science-ness. That way you can not talk about misogyny to your heart’s content.
Why does it bother you so much that a blogger is discussing misogyny? Why does it bother you that there are many readers, both men and women, who read and enjoy this blog? Why does it bother you so much that you decided to attempt to actively discourage people from reading this blog?
Why do you care what other people read?
LOL
I don’t really care what people read. My first comment was a response to the author herself and her point as to why she wrote this post (saying that she was merely escalating the problem). My other comments were merely reactions to attacks on what I said (this current one was in reply to “how fucking dare I”, or something, where I had no room to respond). It’s interesting to see people’s reactions to stuff, I usually just read without saying anything (not on this blog, I’m far more interested in getting into the minds of the PUAs as a first step towards figuring out how to deal with them), so this is something of a change of pace for me. So far, pretty interesting, I can almost see why some people do it regularly.
This is a troll mindset.
Also, do you really think “don’t feed the trolls” is an original argument that no one here has considered? You’re far from the first to bring this up. It’s a marvelous way to silence people and preserve the status quo. There has been lots of discussion about this issue. If you’re interested in learning more, start here:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/02/28/dont-feed-the-trolls-is-bad-science/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/07/02/dealing-with-trolls/
Jen, this is directly to you.
These people are assholes, no question. That doesn’t mean that they are MRAs or that all MRAs are assholes. It’s not a dirty word. There are a lot of men’s issues that are getting ignored and covered up because people assume that MRAs all think the same way.
Please consider actually reading about some of our issues before blanket judging an entire group of people.
A “mere” college education, hmm? I find that telling – presumably you’re concerned that the Ivy-Tower Intellectual Elite will get their hooks into your daughters and persuade them that there are things more important than what they can “offer” a man.
Also, the fact that you ended that with a winking emoticon is _deeply_ disturbing.
Well, I don’t say anything explicitly to provoke people, I make sure to be less combative than whoever I’m responding to (your response was entirely calm and reasonable, you can tell me if you did not find my response as reasonable). I didn’t realize that my responses could be considered as trolling – if you’re curious, you could scroll up to see what was my initial analysis of the situation that this post refers to, and the responses I got for it.
(not Jen) I specifically said “identify as MRAs and PUAs” for a reason. And I understand your frustration even though I’m the instigator in this case because I’m a feminist that lives with the automatic rad-fem assumptions that are so common.
But I’m a feminist who is concerned with men’s issues to the extent I’ve written about them on several occasions. I’ve met plenty of men with a primary interest in men’s rights that want all humans treated justly and I’ve met women who feel the same, but the only people who identify as MRAs or PUAs want men in superior position and have an obvious and apparent hate for and fear of women.
If you’re first justice for all MRA/PUA then how d’ya do. Pleased to meet you and ahem…you have a big problem with your extremists – they own the terms.
“…but the only people who identify as MRAs or PUAs want men in superior position and have an obvious and apparent hate for and fear of women.”
Doh…meant to insert “I’ve met, read, found online” between people and who. I might be willing to call that a Freudian slip if I didn’t think Freud was mostly a putz.
Anon, I think you’re talking about a defense mechanism that I too have witnessed, pretense at not caring. It doesn’t apply here. What Jen doesn’t care about is whether or not some anonymous misogynist is attracted to her. I don’t see what’s so unbelievable about that. I wouldn’t be surprised if most women on the planet feel the same way.
The reason she posted about these men is implied a couple of times and clearly stated towards the end of the post: “I love laughing at these nitwits.”
Based on the comments, I don’t think she’s alone in this regard. It may be a guilty pleasure, but still a pleasure and a free one at that.
You misunderstand me Quietmarc, I’m not defending men. I’m saying anonie does herself no good to ‘hate men’ because of what some men have done to her. I’ve been there, too, and it’s not a happy place to be. It’s easy to see all men through the filter of the abuser or rapist, but it’s a filter that blinds you to the men who are not like that.
MRA site to Jen: “You ugly!”
Jen response: points. Laughs.
MRA apologist: “Vile bully!”
Laughed so hard I tinkled a little bit. Hey anon, please provide evidence of your vast and superior brilliance, scientific credentials, human psychology credentials and so on. To write such a blatantly un-evidenced declarative statement on an atheist blog is just asking for attack, so of course even you would anticipate it…but for the wrong reason.
Really though, calling this lady ugly is cheap because she must’ve heard this so much throughout out her childhood, and then HIGH school, and then UNDERgrad. Those words must not even mean the same thing to her anymore. When someone says, “Dude face it you’re hideous, go into the science field and bury yourself in books and maybe you’ll evade that ugly criticism,”
she hears “Oh you’re undermining my intelligence, sex is my choice and some comment about misogyny.”
If there is any doubt as to how ugly she is, that would be ridiculous. ANd for her to act clueless about that fact, and indirectly seek the validation of her readers, is equally sad, shame on people for misleading the woman. I would respect if she admitted she was ugly and made fun of herself for it. OR tried to run a damn comb through her hair to make herself presentable but noo. She’s ugly and proud of it to the point where she thinks its not ugly anymore. But shame more on the men dating this woman and giving her the time of day you are sending mixed signals. CONFUSING her.
Hmmm…if you’ve never met an attractive & happy feminist, I think you must go through life with your eyes shut. I’m a 27-year-old lawyer with multiple female lawyer friends and coworkers, most of whom are married, all of whom are currently in a relationship (so someone finds them attractive, no?). We lead great lives and all of us self-identify as feminists.
It’s perfectly fine for you to have certain things that you do or do not personally find attractive, but to assert that no attractive or happy woman would be a feminist is asinine.
I’m upset that they decided that the already-simple rules set out in 3.0 and 3.5 needed to be simplified further for 4.
But I’m a crochety old role-player in that regard.
Obviously, you’re not paying attention to a damn word she wrote, otherwise it would be really fucking clear that the opinions of a bunch of woman-hating dickbags wanking on about “oh she’s soooo ugly/why won’t she make prettify herself into wankbait for meeee” don’t matter to her, other than for a few blog posts worth of amusement.
Step back for a moment, consider why she should give a fuck what you or anyone else thinks about her appearance, and then kindly walk into traffic.
Jen to PUA site: “idiotic misogynistic jackass”
MRA site to readers: “would you date this girl?”
MRA readers response: “No she’s ugly!”
Jen response: points. Laughs.
[Escalation all around]
My response: she picked up that fight, she went looking for it, for the purpose of attacking them and nothing more. Yes I find that vile bullyish behavior.
An easy-to-point-out but of my credentials is that I got my biology B.Sc. at age 17.5, then enrolled in a PhD program at an Ivy League school at age 18. Just finishing up the writing of my dissertation on the neural mechanisms of aggression, seems that the pursuit of a fight opportunity is associated with reduced neural activity all around, while observing the stimulus and choosing not to pursue an attack goes with increased brain activation. This was not done on humans, but the parallels are quite amusing (or sad, right now I’d go with sad). My human psychology credentials are less obvious, just spent many years trying to make sense of human irrational behavior, so it no longer upsets/confuses me (used to be quite unpleasant when I was younger, but I learned to be more tolerant). I’ve also been making steady progress on figuring out how the brain works in general (variety of topics unrelated to my formal research), in my free time, but there’s no good way to demonstrate that unless you’d like to engage me in a discussion on that topic. Now you’re of course still not going to believe me when I said these things because I did not provide a copy of my transcripts and proof of age and a link to my information from the lab’s page, which I’m obviously not going to just publish like that on the internet, so that’s pretty much why I made the claims unsupported in the first place.
Zappa was right about the ugliest part of your body, dude. As right as right can be.
…and while I’m on a tear, seriously, when did “I’ll hit that” or “I’d date you” or anything down those lines become a fucking complement? What you’re pretty much saying is that “I would touch you with my boner”. What’s so special about you or your boner that any random woman should care about touched by either? And of course, with the reverse that we’re dealing with here, why should Jen give a fuck if these guys wouldn’t want to touch her with their boners? It’s crazy making how important boners seem to be in this issue when they’re actually not.
Sure, if you’re actively hitting on someone for the dating times/sexy times, finding them attractive is big juicy deal, but it doesn’t matter in every single other instance of human interaction. It’s infuriating, especially coming from well-meaning folks who apparently don’t know any better. Is it possible to find another way to complement someone that takes the boner out of the equation?
You conveniently left out the first part there:
PUA site to women: “Hey bitches! You want men to find you sexy? Quit getting an education – smart chicks aren’t sexy!”
Oooh, it’s a No True Scotsman argument! Those are brand-new!
Seriously, though, Rob, if you don’t want to identify with men claiming that women aren’t people, or that they should be disenfranchised, or who act as rape apologists, or who condone rape or worse against women, or any of the other odious and foul things visible on sites like AVfM, The Spearhead, MGTOW, the Men’s Rights subreddit, you’d best find a new name for your movement.
Because at this point, it’s like saying “I’m a White Supremacist, but I’m not a racist.”
By commenting on the attractiveness of the author of the blog, you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of what the entire post was about: if you have to resort to name calling and/or insults against a person who has critiqued you, rather than responding to her critique, then you must not have any valid or logical arguments with which to contradict her.
oh! Sorry! Didn’t realise i was just an “asshole” (what ever that is?)
well go ahead then, feed ’em.
Good luck with that. X
“if jen wants people to stop feeding the chickenshit trolls. SHE will say so. And only SHE can.”
1) I was actually suggesting that JEN should stop feeding the trolls.
2) People, STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS.! . . (that was me. . Not jen)
3) “if jen wants people to stop feeding the chickenshit trolls. SHE will say so. And only SHE can.”
FOR SALE. One irony meter, slighty used.
Mmm. . . .
A fair point.
But given that there are trolls who will exasparate any response to their provocation.
How do you differentiate between them and arseholes of the alternative variety?
so i should condesend/ patronise the “audience”?
Assume they are too simple/ ignorant to know a troll, or know a rediculous unrealistic sentiment?
trolls are trolls.
While “us” who like to think of ourselves as rational may not be able to comprehend what a troll gets out of it, they exist. The only win is if the whole world gets decent. But that aint gonna happen.
State your claim, back it up with rational explanation. Dont engage the troll.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BCCETH1usI
This is what I think of whenever misogynists invade the comments
Not that it matters one whit, but you look fine to me. Healthy. Nice smile. Bah-blah-blah.
I thought there would at least be some photo of Lovecraftian horror that would appear.
Wait, that wouldn’t bother me either.
Them’s some stupid guys, all right. Rather beneath the level of contempt.
:yawn: Anon=Attention whore.
Know what I find attractive in a woman? A head on her shoulders.
I am disgusted at my gender when I see people equate Maxim cover-eqsue looks with beauty.
Well I for one can easily confirm that I am holding to your standard.
First, I don’t hate anyone. I hold MRAs in disdain but not out of any doctrine.
I hold them in disdain because every MRA that I’ve ever interacted with has at best consistently denied facts that they don’t like while making unsupported assertions, but more commonly has revealed himself to be a truly vile hateful sexist lying pig who will viciously attack anyone who disagrees, usually with slurs, often with lies and sometimes with threats.
Zat ok with you?
Yeah, he did write that. Without connecting to any woman in particular, and quite some time ago. Since it didn’t exactly get an audience among women that you might worry about it influencing (can you really imagine a girl reading it and deciding not to get higher education?!), I hardly saw it as a cause for concern, independent of the fact that my personal experience has been that the claim is plainly false. It is, however, true that guys objectify women, at whatever level of education – I completely agree that this is a real problem. My friends would talk about how they’re interested in dating various women and mention only their looks when describing them (all these people are in grad school or beyond) – I do call them idiots for that, consistently, but I also realize that it’s not going to change them either. So in a way I completely understand why those posts upset her, and I do agree that they’re pointing to something problematic, I was mostly criticizing the highly combative attitude involved, making the point that you can’t really shame them into being different, especially since they got themselves this way in the first place because they feel that “being male” is under attack (their aggression is of a defensive nature, not offensive).
I don’t always move in intellectual circles so I have met many men like these (and some women, actually). They treat each other like this. They will sexually harass the nearest person. They view all people, including themselves, as sex objects. It’s mostly younger guys who do it. Many, but not all, out grow it. Some are destined to live out life in some Al Bundyesque existence where the highlights, which they will gladly share, are running for a touchdown and laying a spectacular towel snap on a buddy’s ass in the locker room. (Probably right after they told him he had a small penis.)
The reality is that they are insecure and scared. It’s the typical bully behaviour of running down others so they can get you to a level where they might have a chance to feel good about themselves.
Hey, some people are just inherently attracted to Photoshop output.
“Sure, they got issues”
They don’t “got issues”; they are an issue. And they need solving.
“State your claim, back it up with rational explanation” and “Dont engage the troll” are mutually exclusive. Trolls are people who respond to rational explanation with stupidity. If we say anything at all, we are engaging them. And telling people that they may not respond to the troll even though the troll seeks them out because they made a claim with a rational explanation is only aiding the troll, as it gives the troll unfettered ability to abuse people who are doing nothing more than making reasonable arguments. In short, when you pull this “don’t feed the troll” shit, you’re granting near unlimited power to the troll by making sure the victims of the trolling are the ones who are being made to shut up whenever the trolls saunter in.
These are just internet jerks making internet jerknoise. They’ve always been with us and they always will be. It really isn’t worth paying them even this much attention.
Indeed there are issues that harm men, and there are men out there looking to stop them.
We don’t call them MRAs though; they’re called “male feminists”.
First, I am not an MRA and I found this blog through a feminist site.
I am deeply saddened at how prolific hate is here. None of you nor the author of this blog has actually addressed the key issue about claiming the person is an MRA without a shred of evidence. This clearly is acceptable to all of all by your responses and is a form of bigotry — yes bigotry. Maybe all of you need to look up that term and meanwhile look up the term “misandry.”
This reminds me of the recent Feminism convention patting themselves on their back for setting up a women’s shelter/community for rape victims, which is a great achievement. Rape is horrible and it is prolific in the Congo where the study they cite reports an incidence of 30% against women (I know, it is terrible!!!). But, what I take issue to is how they ignore the obvious and glaring crimes against men. Over how many dead bodies of men and boys did they have to walk over in the Congo to set up that shelter/community? And what is more blatantly worse, why did they not mention the statistic from the same exact study that there is 20% incidence of Rape against Men? And that is suspect to be much greater because of two alarming conditions. One the common nature of men less likely to report rape, but worse how often after men are raped they are murdered.
Sorry, but men do have REAL issues and last I looked murder was on equal or greater scale of rape as crimes against humanity.
Sleep well with your obsessed myopic view. I, however, am well aware and well educated in crimes against humanity and this site looks like many of those I have researched at how such crimes begin…
ytterp has nothing on lufituaeb or suoegrog.
Both are impressively onomatopoetic. Suoegrog sounds like my mouth after a big night.
Even if it was, what the fuck does that have to do with anything? Dipshit.
BTW, feminism isn’t about women telling men what they should find attractive; a closer approximation is that men shouldn’t be pressuring women to care excessively about their experience.
It’s that kind of pathetic social pressuring that got me started on the road to feminism in the first place.
0/10
You’re not very good at this.
Sharing a laugh with sane people =/= caring about what some nitwit says. I find morons like Roosh hilarious in the same way that creationists are. All cut from the same retarded cloth.
EDIT:
Idiotic*, not retarded
Goddamn, I hate it when that happens. I really should be past that at this point.
Dear Jen,
You’re awesome.
Suido.
Anybody else starting to think that maybe eugenics isn’t such a bad idea?
Not at all.
How many?
What is this sample size and what was the situation?
Not to be rude, but discussions about gender issues seldom are civil with one ism discussing it with another ism. This is like expecting atheists and theists getting along all buddy buddy like about loaded emotional issues. I’ve been around the block “a lot” and I’m sorry to tell you but many of you feminists reek of “slurs” as well.
Seriously, if you there was an olympic event in rolling of the eyes I know where to look to form my team, LOL.
Here is a recent survey of data from reddit.com/r/mensrights group. http://imgur.com/a/2tjQL
They really seem rather liberal from what I can tell. Maybe you should pay a visit. Keep in mind, it is not politically correct to say you are an MRA so I doubt you have come across a good sample to begin with.
And lastly, please note, you nor anyone here has addressed that there is no reason to believe the person is an MRA. And none of you seem to care and in fact think it’s fine to justify your hate from one man’s action towards an entire group. And whether you like it or not, that is poor behavior and your inability to recognize that speaks volumes about this blogger and the readers here.
Cheers.
On twitter? Yeah, really anonymous, really just on the internet. That must be why people who have spouted racist shit on twitter in England haven’t been arrested. Because it’s absolutely impossible to find out who a twitter account belongs to. Totally just internet jerks, and therefore, not worth trying to expose reprehensible behaviour.
/sarcasm.
See that little “x” up in the corner of the browser window, Rogi? Just click it, and you won’t be forced to look at Jen’s nasty post anymore.
Fuckwit.
I can only assume the ironic lack of self-portrait avatars/icons is lost on them…
No.
Jen,
I admit, I didn’t read all of the comments, I definitely didn’t read all of the bullshit. Because of this, I may be way out of line…but I hope not. I’ve read your posts and I’d like to think I’m smarter than the average bear. That said, I’m confident that you are smarter than me. I think you are stunning. I imagine you don’t care, and I agree that you shouldn’t care, but….you, are, stunning. Ignore the punks, there are gentlemen who read and enjoy your blog. Try not to focus on the swine, I know them, they are not worth your time. Keep up the good work.
And who might this be?
I’m truly sorry. Really, truly sorry.
I’ve read about MRA’s on Pharyngula, but admittedly have never done any research or further reading…and, now I’m glad that I haven’t.
Honestly, I read those comments in your post and it scares me. My privilege as an American male needed some education as to what outspoken female feminists face. And, oh, WOW!!! Holy Shit! I feel like I’m in kindergarten.
I would like to say, “keep up the good fight!”, but I would never encourage my wife or daughter to put themselves out there like you do. In fact, I would discourage it.
So, anyway…thank you very much for what you do. It must take tremendous courage!!!
As to your picture: Why did you post it at all? I’m not criticizing, but I’ve never met an ugly person until they started talking. If you wanted to say,”Here I am. I like myself just like this. It would be nice if you could learn to like me, too.” Then I get it.
Just to be fair: This Roosh is not exactly an icon of the skeptic community. He’s just hateful and verbose fuckwit on the internet.
Read carefully, AnonMan:
There is a difference between “I don’t care what a dumbfuck like you thinks of me” and “I do care that women are constantly being subjected to pressure from misogynistic assholes like you who think women should be concerned with how they look to men, and I’m going to post these losers’ tweets as examples.”
Yeah, sister, work it! Man, I should upload a picture of myself and say something feministy and try to outdo you. I’ll aim for a rating of -20.
I WON’T BE DEFEATED BY YOU, JEN. ;)
Frankly, I (male, white, straight) would begin to worry and stop reading your columns if you actually did care about my opinion on your appearances. I live a couple of 1000’s km away from you!
Sample size = >100
That’s just my personal interaction.
I’ve yet to meet a self-proclaimed MRA who wasn’t really a male supremacist.
Where are all the nice ones hiding? Point me to one and I’ll have at least one data point to contradict the prevailing trend.
http://www.manboobz.com
Also, Roosh is quite popular among MRAs. He posts frequently and is quoted frequently on their sites. There’s a large overlap between MRAs and PUAs.
http://manboobz.com/?s=roosh
LOL.
You win one Internets! Best ever response, let’s sign up more women to advanced education!
hey buddy, thanks for the response.
To answer the question which was something like is it possible to compliment a woman without it being sexual.
There are guys on here who share your worldview, why not talk to them? They have no interest in that kind of thing.
Y’know, the funny thing is that my mention of modeling wasn’t an attempt to prove that *men* find me attractive, but rather putting it forward as a fairly bland and inoffensive objective measure of conventional attractiveness that a company would trust that my looks could sell their clothes.
What’s *hilarious* is the nearly 200 hit upspike in visitors to my blog routed from this post from people (I’m assuming) checking to see if I was actually a hideous chud or not.
You’re a jackass. I find Jen quite attractive, and her intelligence only makes it more so.
I married a woman whose intelligence has kept me on my toes for 36 years, and I always found her to be a lively, interesting conversationalist. When physical activities such as sex become impossible due to age or medication, men should be happy to have an intelligent partner to stay engaged with!
It’s called being smart about choosing a partner. Concentrating on one aspect of a person is always a losing proposition.
And get this, I countered there is no evidence this guy is an MRA either. But no one cares and look at the follow up posts to your comment. MRA tackles issues feminism ignores is all and like feminism they have the fringe that are bad apples.
They — the blogger here and reading this blog — are apparently just full of hate towards men. There is a term for it: misandry.
Awwwww. I love that one.
It was one of those laughs that hits with painful effect while your throat was trying to do something else.
In this case, swallowing food.
Another smile for a while.
run a damn comb through her hair
Ooh, snap! Insults to the coiffure! What epic raillery!
All physical arousal, pleasure, and orgasm mean in the context of rape is that the victims parts are functioning properly. Pleasure won’t always be there, of course, but even the most clearly consensual sex sometimes lacks it.
It does *not* mean they secretly wanted it. Stimulation of those parts is supposed to be pleasurable, and those signals will come in whether you want them to or not.
Or depending on their cause, we may also call them LGBT activists or humanitarians.
Men do get hurt by the system, men are more likely to go to prison, be homeless, or commit suicide. These are all things that need to be changed. Our prison and criminal justice system needs to change (getting rid of for profit prisons and the “war on drugs” for example). The homeless need more assistance in finding jobs, housing, applying for benefits, getting medical and mental health care, etc. Men who are suicidal need resources to help them get the mental health care they need and the culture of men “sucking it up” needs to change so they can seek out help and not feel like less of a man for doing it.
The thing is that MRAs are doing that. They mostly just spend their time on the internet complaining about how women having jobs, being educated, and refusing to have sex with them is the “end of civilization”.
So… you thought this issue was unimportant enough to not come by and comment on it, cool.
BUT WAIT!
If you didn’t comment on it, what am I replying to?
THE CALLS ARE COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!
. . .
In any case, the entire Internet thanks you for demonstrating your clear intellectual and moral superiority by not commenting on this post.
Oh… oh, heck, never mind.
I know, right? Which is the same exact problem women have with men, in that they are too much like men. And women hardly need more of that, either.
I mean, a guy is supposed to have 5-10 priorities higher than the woman in whom he has some interest, not the other way around!
Thanks for the verification of the guy being a PUA and posting on a MRA site. That makes feel better about the vilification, though I still don’t like it.
As far as your sample size I have a hard time believing that, I just do, sorry. Try the site I sent you and there is even http://www.reddit.com/r/ladymras too. There are many reasonable people just like feminists. And just like feminists there are many hateful people and I’m wondering if I stumbled upon that crowd here. After all if you are unreasonable how would anyone with a counter view to yours ever hope to not be demonized? Therefore the likely variable for your sample size would be you :)
There is a reason why theism made up Satan for justification of their world view :)
Personally, I just recognize a voice needed for issues of men that feminism ignores way too much with such quotes as, “when rape is solved then we can focus on men.”
Sorry, that has been a cop out for way too long with now a billion dollar industry and lobbying group with statistics that are showing men being left more and more in the background and no end quantified for the feminist movement to stop (e.g., more men unemployed, more men homeless, more domestic violence against men, more rape of men, less standards in male education and on and on and on).
Serious question, when is equal going to be reached? It won’t, there is too much money in it now. You’ll see…
I dare these people to put a picture of themselves on the internet much likes yours – straight up front, no special photoshopping and no hiding behind anything.
I assume that most of them would not be willing or able to do that in the first place.
It’s almost certainly not true. The number of women who regularly experience vaginal orgasm during consensual sex isn’t particularly high. I don’t remember the exact figure, but it’s rather less than 50%. Christ, if these fuckers ever even talked (non-creepily) to real women about their experience of sex they’d have some intuition that this figure was bogus.
A paltry minus 10??
Hah! I once got told by a high school classmate, “I wouldn’t fuck you if my dick was rotting off and your cunt was the cure.” I hadn’t asked him, but he felt like sharing that day, I guess.
I suppose we uggos should organise a pride parade… or something? Nah, I’m too busy not giving a shit what dickwarts like that guy from high school and these utter winners on the internet think.
For any confused misogynists reading these comments: my self-esteem and worth doesn’t rely on your approval of me. It relies on MY approval of me. Jog on.
no they are not mutualy exclusive!
People make statements all the time without engaging trolls.
I do not think people should “shut up”, did you not read me say, “state your claim . . .”? You did quote me, but did you read me?
The way to grant a troll ANY power is to respond to them!
I do not believe that people are generaly persueded by ridiculous, unrealistic sentiments of trolls and the brain dead. I think higher of most people.
(except maybe skepchick followers). Test troll comment.
I think it’s pretty sad that the only way a woman can appear feminine to you is if she adds loads of fake effects. That says a great deal about you.
Like adults?!?
A guy further up in the comments tried to tell us that women like to be raped and that he had scientific evidence to back that statement up. A complete lie. A hateful, vile lie.
According to you this person should not be challenged. He should be allowed to continue encouraging rape and rape culture.
You disgust me.
Firstly, please don’t call me “buddy”, my name is right there above my post.
Secondly, guys that don’t do that aren’t who I’m talking to or about, because they don’t do that. Also, I’m not even talking to/about guys who would be all “whatever, I do what I want no matter how awkward it makes the ladies”, because deaf ears and all that. It’s the “well-meaning folks who apparently don’t know any better”, I’m focusing on.
Is that clear enough for you?
“-10” would make a heck of a t-shirt or tricot.
(de-lurking)
I’d like to measure the radius of PUA repulsion a -10 entails, in the hopes of developing anti-PUA repulsor devices.
I couldn’t think of anything uglier than the loathsome actions of knuckle dragging mouth breathers masturbating their stupidity on an intelligent woman’s website. Every line of every post is an indictment of their opinion as it only proves that they are the ones that are in dire need of attitude check. Every woman is someone’s mom, sister, aunt, etc. If they don’t want someone to treat those ladies in their life like meat, or sex dolls or punching bags, they should take a moment to honestly consider what they just did and apply those comments to someone they would never want those things said to. It’s suddenly not so fucking funny to jump on the asshole bandwagon, is it? Utter shitbags, the lot of them. If I had a son that talked that way to any woman he would be scraping his ass off my boot for the next month.
There is no need to go that far. MRAs/PUAs make themselves so completely repulsive to women they will eventually self-select themeselves out of the human race. Adapt or die and all that.
Why are you – a well known misogynistic troll – pretending to be on Jen’s side here?
You’re quite right. Those crimes committed by men against men should be sorted out by women.
In fact they should stop helping women right now even though female rape is a bigger problem according to your own statistics because men are just much more important and need attention first.
Congratulations on your MRA status… but I don’t think anyone here needs to update their beliefs about what MRAs stand for.
I had a really rough time in grad school. Like nigh-unto-a-breakdown rough. Looking back, I find myself wishing that I had known my PhD would serve as MRA-repellant. It would have been a warm ember of hope and joy in an otherwise rotten part of my life.
Knowing that, just by existing, I am making MRA boners sad, has brightened my Thursday. Thank you to the blogmistress for sharing this information. And thank you to all the PUAs and MRAs whose desperate frustration has brought a smile to my ugly, educated, feminist face.
Being noncombative won’t change them either, so why not take the approach that validates the people who are targets of such attitudes by reinforcing the idea that those attitudes are worthless?
Hey, Ink, don’t you dare. Don’t you dare use the word ugly. You know how much time and effort a universe has to put in to arrange skin and muscles on people’s skulls in just such an exact way? Countless particles had to decide to spontaneously appear en masse and expand willy-nilly all over the place in non-uniform fashion so that some stars could form and explode to make a planet and some self-replicating genetic stuff that could make a multitude of insanely different living creatures, each going through all the trouble of avoiding getting eaten before reproducing, and eventually becoming humans that trudged all over the planet chasing food and each-other, that all culminated in an educated person being able to give a verbal flip-off to some ignorant over-privileged gits by means of an incredible global communication technology that relies on tens of thousands of people figuring out how all of the previous stuff happened and what the hell all those particles were in the first place. You know how much effort and time that takes? 13.7 billion years. All that effort to make you as you look right now, with the smile of satisfaction of filling your brain with as much of the knowledge of your favorite field as possible seems a rather beautiful and seemingly insanely impossible thing.
The only thing where the ugly appellation is fitting is in describing the minds of the MRAs with the sad boners which you speak of. Ugly, creepy, small minds. If only the universe were so diabolical that it could manufacture a means of letting the wives and girlfriends of these jerks read the things they’ve written here. The smirks would hit the pavement so hard and fast you could hear them echo for miles.
Right. Because feminists don’t have this saying that “Patriarchy hurts men, too” at all, right? Why is it that every single fucking conversation that occurs about feminism and the societal issues it’s attempting to tackle is considered invalid by people like you unless we include a laundry list of ways in which Problem X affects men, too? What is so goddamned wrong about women having these conversations and safe spaces in which we’re allowed to focus on how Problem X disproportionately affects women? It’s not a zero-sum game – talking about how various societal problems stemming from patriarchy hurt women != ignoring that patriarchy hurts men, too.
Unless of course, you don’t view those things as being problems at all unless they hurt men, too, because if it’s just women, pffft! Who cares, right?
Feminism advocates for the loosening/erasure of strict gender roles as defined by patriarchy, which doesn’t just help women – it helps men, too. For instance, when the National Organization for Women argued that a male-only military draft discriminates against men and violates men’s equal protection rights, they were doing so as feminists. Arguing that feminists don’t care about how patriarchy hurts men or “men’s issues” is ignorant at best and blatantly dishonest at worst.
Try doing some reading and educate yourself.
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/12/29/why-yes-but-is-the-wrong-response-to-misogyny/
http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2003/09/feminists_are_sexist
Just tell them that breathing is what feminist do.
As I said in regard to this massive loser MRA’s original post, this guy is a massive loser. As are his loser MRA friends. Their idea of male/female relations is out of the Taliban handbook!
Upthread, an MRA tried to make a lame-ass argument that educated women with careers are less attractive than uneducated women in low-skilled jobs because education and career are sources of constant stress. An MRA also trolled Manboobz with the exact same argument, which leads me to believe that this whole education = ugliness-inducing stress is the official answer that Roosh’s acolytes have formulated in response to any criticism leveled against their “guru”.
I wonder how much time they spent inventing this piece of apologia, because it’s beyond lame. We all have stress — but there are different kinds of stress, some more damaging than others. Notice how Roosh characterizing waitresses as the sexiest of women. But, waitressing is a physically exhausting job, and it entails dealing with customers, many of whom are rude, entitled, excessively demanding and downright abusive. Personally, I would rate customer service jobs — server, hotel clerk, entry-level support — as THE most stressful jobs out there, simply because they involve a fuckton of verbal abuse on a daily basis, with no relief. Add to that the stress of low pay, and the pigeon-holing that characterizes most unskilled jobs. Sure, school is stressful and so are highly skilled jobs, but at least those things offer goals and milestones, a sense of accomplishment and importance, all of which relieve stress. The pressure of trying a case cannot even remotely compare with the stress of being in a low-paid job where a myriad of strangers tear into you on a regular basis, living paycheck-to-paycheck and having no possibility of promotion or advancement to look forward to.
And don’t even get me started on the amount of stress that’s involved in staying home with children.
Ugh. Reading what those guys said just rubs me the wrong way. I’ve mostly stayed out of the whole conference kerfuffle, but ugh.
How difficult is it to understand? Women are just people. Jeez. Guys, if you think that the entire point of life is going around poking holes in the wall with your dong, you’ve gotten lost somewhere. I would like to believe that the internet tends to filter for the extremes and that these people are not typical, but I’ve got to wonder.
If it helps, just keep being who you are, Jen. This guy thinks that at least. I hope I’m a member of a silent majority.
Being noncombative keeps them at status-quo rather than making them attack back and having things escalate like the other day. Making the point that their attitudes are worthless is perfectly reasonable, like saying that as a scientist I’d very much hope to “decrease guys’ boners” so that they’re able to actually focus on the science ideas I’m trying to convey (for example), but that can be done without the personal attacks and ridicules of the people involved (worthless attitudes vs. worthless people – not that I’m saying they have plenty of worth, given that their main goal in life is to have a bunch of sex, but that’s besides the point). Basically, the current approach is validating strongly both your side AND their side, so it’s more polarizing; a more careful approach could still validate your side without giving them more reason for theirs. Anybody who’s familiar with the Jon Stewart approach to stuff, advocating moderation rather than the more and more extremely polarization that’s currently happening – that’s kinda my point, for a similar reason to how he criticizes Democrats when they do/say things that just hurt their cause and give the Republicans more reasons to hate/fear them.
Having watched MRAs for years, I can safely say that this is a blatant lie. The only reason to get behind a “men’s rights” movement, like a “white power” one, is to reassert dominance. If it was about equality, you’d be a feminist.
Women may not be reading that stupidity, but men certainly are, which is most certainly going to affect the women who those men come into contact with. So it’s most definitely a cause for concern. Then again, I’m a woman – I can’t afford to ignore the promulgation of the shit spewed by Rooshe and his ilk because it DIRECTLY AFFECTS my life. Rooshe’s words aren’t a theoretical exercise that will have no bearing on me – there are real people who listen and absorb what he says, and given that we still exist in a patriarchal society in which men still wield the majority of influence and power, it’s most definitely concerning to me that attitudes like Rooshe’s are being spread and targeted AT OTHER MEN.
Why not? Why wouldn’t your words have any effect on your friends? Oftentimes, we can ignore criticisms of our actions and words coming from strangers, but when a friend/trusted acquaintance tells you “Your words/actions are wrong. Stop doing that!” it can often carry far more weight and signal that perhaps you are in error and ought to rethink what you’re doing/saying. How can you know for sure that continuing to call them out for such idiotic behavior isn’t going to change them? Assuming that it’s futile is defeatist and often an excuse to do nothing because to continue trying involves real work and possibly conflict.
And why, pray tell, do we want to keep things at the status quo? This is again, indicative of a defeatist attitude that ultimately serves to silence women from speaking up and “rocking the boat”: “Quit speaking up and being so aggressive by pointing out how these guys are wrong, you’re only going to make it worse! Just deal with how things are (and maybe if you’re nice to them, they’ll come around).” No. No fucking way. We’re done with being told to sit down and shut up. When the even merest whisper of criticism pointing out obvious inequalities perpetuated by patriarchy. couched in politely deferential terms, is met with “SHRILL HARPY SHUT UP!!!” might as well speak loudly and straightforward because you’re going to be told you’re “harming your cause by being angry” anyway.
If you’re wondering why your continual instance that “both sides are doing it, why can’t you be nicer about it?” is being met with hostility, consider this: “You’re damaging your cause by being oversensitive/overemotional/hostile/angry” is one of the most common derailing/silencing tactics in advocating for social justice. It’s insulting because it implies that those of us who are passionate and upset about such inequalities have no reason to be, that being “angry” over being seen as no more valuable than our subjective level of physical attractiveness isn’t valid, that we have no reason to fight back when we’re being treated as objects rather than people, that we shouldn’t be upset when it’s implied that unless we fit a narrow definition of what “real women do/are” (as determined by men), we’re worth less as women. Anger and hostility are perfectly natural and normal reactions to these aspects of the reality we currently live with.
There is no middle ground between equality and sexism. Period.
While I don’t support the 4th edition changes, the D20 system has some fundamental flaws of its own.
Because ATHEISM. (Yeah. I’m on-topic.)
Are you familiar with: “grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference”? I’ve accepted that human nature belongs to that first category (both yours, and theirs), while you’re under the impression that it belongs to the 2nd. We’ll see how things turn out in a decade or two…
I would like you to read this Feminism For Dudes article, specifically this part:
And I’m not sure invoking Jon Stewart, who makes a living mocking stupidity in exactly the same way Jen is doing in these posts, is the best example for your argument.
The fact that we perhaps can’t totally eradicate sexism, rape, murder or theft doesn’t mean we shouldn’t oppose them, or that we can’t reduce them.
You’ve still failed to provide any evidence whatsoever that the opinions of MRAs, PUAs and the people who might be sympathetic to them are immutable and can’t be changed. I think you are doing them (and human nature in general) a disservice by assuming that they are incapable of learning better or growing beyond this sort of idiocy.
And really, fuck you for telling those of us who are upset by the mentality shown by the ridiculous shit that Jen has rightfully mocked here that we should have the “serenity” to accept it. Why should I, when doing so means accepting that I will be treated as an object whose worth is solely based on how attractive a man may find me?
hieropants had it exactly right with this quote, which I’m repeating here for emphasis:
It’s excellent advice and comes right back around to male privilege: men have the luxury of ignoring this sort of misogynistic bullshit because it’s not directed at them and can therefore make pithy and blithe admonitions about how women just need to learn how to accept that sexism is just the way that it is; women do not have that luxury, and therefore are bound to get more than a little pissed off when someone like you comes around telling us when and how it’s appropriate to fight back.
You can sit right back there on your comfy little fence telling the ladies how it would be better for them if they just played nicer, bemoaning the futility of trying to change things because it’s just so haaaarrrdddd, and wait to see how it turns out in a decade or two. You get to be that comfortable. I don’t have the luxury of sitting around and waiting to see what happens because it’s impacting my life RIGHT NOW.
What the shit? What you’re calling “human nature” has changed radically in just the last few decades.
No, it’s because you’re wrong and your message and the actions it inspires harm people.
Zoe Smith, a British weightlifter in the Olympics had an epic smackdown of men like these:
Zoe Smith is a very strong woman, and not just physically. The 18 year old British weightlifter just broke her country’s
record for the clean and jerk by lifting 121 kilos and took to her blog to clean the clocks of jerks who question her
femininity in an epic fashion:
The obvious choice of slander when talking about female weightlifting is “how unfeminine, girls shouldn’t be strong or
have muscles, this is wrong”. And maybe they’re right… in the Victorian era. To think people still think like this is
laughable, we’re in 2012! This may sound like a sweeping generalisation, but most of the people that do think like this
seem to be chauvinistic, pigheaded blokes who feel emasculated by the fact that we, three small, fairly feminine girls,
are stronger than them. Simple as that. I confronted one guy that said “we’re probably all lesbians and look like blokes”,
purely to explain the fact that his opinion is invalid cause he’s a moron. And wrong. He came up with the original
comeback that I should get back in the kitchen. I laughed.
As Hannah pointed out earlier, we don’t lift weights in order to look hot, especially for the likes of men like that.
What makes them think that we even WANT them to find us attractive? If you do, thanks very much, we’re flattered. But if
you don’t, why do you really need to voice this opinion in the first place, and what makes you think we actually give a
toss that you, personally, do not find us attractive? What do you want us to do? Shall we stop weightlifting, amend our
diet in order to completely get rid of our ‘manly’ muscles, and become housewives in the sheer hope that one day you will
look more favourably upon us and we might actually have a shot with you?! Cause you are clearly the kindest, most
attractive type of man to grace the earth with your presence.
Oh but wait, you aren’t. This may be shocking to you, but we actually would rather be attractive to people who aren’t
closed-minded and ignorant. Crazy, eh?! We, as any women with an ounce of self-confidence would, prefer our men to be
confident enough in themselves to not feel emasculated by the fact that we aren’t weak and feeble.
Game, set, match.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2012/08/04/british-weight-lifter-delivers-epic-smack-down/
First: Looks don’t matter. Name doesn’t matter. Quality of Ideas and of work matters. [full stop]
Second : see #1 above.
Third : Nobody, particularly no woman, ever deserves to be judged as a person solely on their looks or more to the point some internet jackhole’s opinion of their looks.
Lastly: I know, most of you didn’t need to read the above, but I thought perhaps one more voice in the milieu wouldn’t hurt.
Um … so what you’re saying is men don’t have anything to offer in a relationship?
But we’re all supposed to still come running and worrying about being able to date you, right?
Are you even the slightest bit aware of how much you reveal about yourself when you say these things?
So short answer:
Entire blog: We hate MRA!!!
I just point out feminism ignores men and you counter with why the should feminism be concerned with men?
Okay, whatever /sigh.
No, not sorted, jut not BLATANTLY IGNORED!
you know, just like you just did.
Like a child with hands against his/her ears going “lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala.”
And I’m sorry, last I checked Congo was a civilization of people so assuming all crimes are by men makes you sexist. Sorry it takes a whole village to wage a war, friend.
I guess you just assume all women are innocent while all men are guilty. Welcome to why most people have little to no respect for feminism.
Richard Thompson has a wonderful response to the “educated women are inherently unattractive” meme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axa0_gh6NYk
Oops. His opinion can’t possibly have any meaning for an MRAsshole: Mr Thompson is a Muslim.
You didn’t bother reading any of those links, did you? Nowhere did it say that feminism should ignore how patriarchy hurts men. What it does argue is that feminism doesn’t have to focus just on how patriarchy hurts men, too in order to be valid – that it is completely valid to discuss how patriarchy hurts women and focus on that without having to mention how it hurts men as well. Not every single conversation in feminism must include an obligatory mention about how patriarchy hurts men in order to be valid – mostly, because feminists already understand implicitly that PATRIARCHY HURTS MEN TOO, and that by dismantling patriarchal structures, both women and men will benefit.
Honestly, what part of talking about how various societal problems stemming from patriarchy hurt women != ignoring that patriarchy hurts men, too do you not understand?
Jaws: Very funny song in the link. The MRAs would have to focus on the Muslim issue; people that thick wouldn’t get most of Thompson’s references in the song.
Didn’t you get arrested?
+1
This right here! This! :)
Hell yes, well said!
(Sort of a duplicate, but my first comment appears so far down the page I almost forgot what I was replying to. Damn nesting.)
FSM almighty. Jen, I just wanted to congratulate you on your ability to attract the worst of the worst. Well done. :)
Though I confess to some surprise as to why some of the repeats haven’t been banned yet. I guess you find them funnier than I do! All I can muster is a giant /yawn.
hey niki sorry for the late reply.
I’m sure you know how to take a genuine compliment, even if god forbid it had to do with your appearance. I can sense your anger, and I would love to continue this conversation. My twitter is @iAmAStreetDream. HIT ME UP. Or just let me know your twitter and ill hit you up if you’re shy.
Have a good day.
Just a side note:-
“So, if someone says and/or does something hateful to you”
Why do you conflate actions with words?
I thought this post was about words, . . That was what I was addressing.
My response to hateful “physical actions” may be a different thing altogether.
Perhaps you do it to dishonestly try to diminish my point?
Holy hell you DO look like a troglodyte!
Jesus Christ!!! She’s fucking DISGUSTING!! She’s hideous in every imaginable way! I seriously haven’t seen anyone this ugly in a long long time. She’s so ugly that she actually stands out, on account of her ugliness. She looks like some freakish character in a horror film. And she’s bragging about her PhD, and blah blah…who cares?? I just can’t get over how deluded people can be, and the kind of nonsense they convince themselves about.
Doesnt matter, still pretty damn ugly.
Your responses are non-sequitur. You accuse Roosh of straw-man attacks. Go read 50 shades of Grey, and revel in your self-aggrandizing intellect. Your own rationale is a false-flag attack on logic, and all your little cheerleaders fall in line. Good luck teaching whatever liberal arts waste of time you’ve had subsidized in the dress of ‘higher education’.
Do you people even read what you write? There’s a preview button down there, you might try clicking it and reading what you’ve written out loud, before you hit submit.
I was raised in a feminist household. My ultimate conclusion was that feminism is about power, not equality. It seduces people with the nice notion of equality. And many actually believe that. However, look at the results.
Consider the following, all supported by feminists:
Violence Against Women Act. A woman can have the police remove a man by force from his own home just by claiming he threatened or used any violence at all. No proof required at all. Many women abuse this law and claim falsely for their own advantage. A man can’t do that with a phone call despite many men being victims of domestic violence. Equal? No.
The feminist fiction that men and women receive different pay for the exact same job. It’s true that men make more than women overall, but once adjusted for hours worked and actual job type (e.g. Surgeon vs general practitioner) there is no discrepancy. Yet fems want more laws cowing employers under threat of litigation. Equal? No.
University enrollment has tipped over 50% to women. Boys are struggling. Yet fems don’t care and want still more preferences for women. Equal? No.
The automatic assumption by fems that any gender difference favoring women (eg verbal ability) proves innate superiority of women. Yet any gender difference (eg spatial and math ability) is the result ofbias and discrimination. Equal? No.
Lurking in the feminist psyche is a bedrock belief that women are superior to men.
Like political revolutions conducted in the name of equality, feminism is a power grab cloaked in equalist language.
strong presence of overweight feminist girls in this post.
strong presence of idiot troll in this comment.
Why did these fuckheads wait two weeks to show everyone how misogynistic they are? Did their bigotry need time to ripen or something?
Great blog! Keep it up.
After all those letters, how is it that you suddenly become attractive in an elevator?
Not to be mean, but you are not pretty. Boner killer is an understatement. Also I think you and Roosh are perfect for each other. He’s as hairy as an ape and you have the face of an ape. Match made in heaven!
Why did you even bother to write the first 4 words?
Fascinating post
People disagreeing with you for your methods is not misogyny. Most of the examples you cite here are nothing more than trolls, sarcasm, or legitimate criticism. Every time you claim to be a victim you prove the point that atheism+ is all about that. Atheism+ is not a bad idea, it could be a legitimate complimentary movement to general traditional atheism. Please stop.