In summary: “GTFO”
Dear Editor,
Many of us are getting a bit tired of hearing about the demands of Purdue’s so-called gay and lesbian community. I suspect that many of those most vocal are probably out-of-state students. I have to ask why did they apply to Purdue in the first place, if all they are going to do is complain about it? These petulant children have ‘gay friendly’ schools in their home states, and the Hoosier troublemakers (if any) should have applied to Bloomington. As a Christian, I hate the sin, but love the sinner. I see no reason to destroy these people, but they should not be working to destroy our Boilermaker values either. So the best solution for all concerned is for Purdue to set up some kind of Director of Gay and Lesbian Issues on campus, someone well versed in transferring academic credits and the application process, so these young people can be directed to better pursue their values and ‘interests’ unhindered in more accepting institutions, and traditional Boilermakers who love Purdue and are happy with it as it is can better pursue our own values and interests as well.
Boiler Up!
Harlan VanderMeer, West Lafayette resident
There’s part of me that is desperately wishing this is some failed attempt at satire. But then I think back to the 22 years I lived in Indiana, and I remember that nope, this anti-GLBT bigotry is pretty much par for the course. Of course no GLBT people are born in Indiana. Teh Gay only spreads in cultured and intelligent neighborhoods, which we know only exist on the east and west coasts. So those Invader Gays should just shut up and deal with the constant harassment and discrimination they face on Purdue’s campus, or get out of the state.
How about that Christian compassion?
Not to brag,* but Bloomington is a better city anyway.
*well, yes to brag
My favorite part is the “so called gay and lesbian community.” Yes, I frequently pretend to be part of an oppressed minority, just for the lulz.
Way to set the bar, Harlan!
In the Christian worldview it seems that anything short of outright genocide counts as ‘love’.
What always gets me is why does this person care? Why don’t they mind their own business and keep their religious-based opinions to themselves. Who cares if there are gay people at Perdue? What does it matter to him, they aren’t hurting anyone except trying to assert their basic human rights and so called American freedom. This guy just seems pissed off by their presence. Compassion indeed. Mind your own business you christo-facist freak. Seriously, this guy would have fit in well in Germany during the 1930’s and is only one step away from being a brownshirt.
It’s quite unfortunate that this woman declared herself ‘Christian.’ In reality, she cannot seem to grasp the foundational Christian doctrine of total depravity. (Maybe she should read her Bible a bit more. Everyone has fallen short of the standard God set – see Romans 3:23 or the rest of the Bible)
Please don’t take this as an oppurtuinty to bang the Christian bigotry drum. Most believers are not like this.
This woman effectively pissed off every people group on the planet.
-Out of State students
-LGBTs
-Christians
-Hoosiers (People from Indiana)
-Hoosiers (People who go to IU)
-Atheists
I seriously cannot think of a group that shouldn’t be angry with this woman.
To me, Harlan reads like a man’s name. Were you perhaps thinking of Harlot?
I’m pretty sure that Harlan is a dude, but anyway, the people who aren’t pissed off with him are those who agree with him. There are still plenty of people around who unironically use the label of “Christian” to mean “bigoted and proud of it.” Then they complain about how American culture is becoming so hostile to Christians. Gee, I can’t imagine why…
I feel like all people like this do is give Christians a bad name. Yes I feel it is a sin but everyone sins in some way or another and homosexuals are human just like the rest of us. All stuff like this does is cause more people to hate god because some extremist could not think about what they were saying. God loves everyone no matter what they do that’s why Jesus died for us. I just wish people could remember that and stop saying things that cause everyone to think we Christians are all extreme, gay bashers, and that we looks down on and judge everyone. The majority of us are not like that and I know my gay best friend is the one person in this world I could not live without. It hurts me when people do this because it causes people to not even want to be friends with me because I’m Christian.
Am I missing something somewhere, or is this a fake name? I’m pretty sure the Exponent requires that you provide some I.D. info, but a search around the web turns up surprisingly little evidence of anyone named “Harlan VanderMeer.” So either this person has never used a computer or they were too cowardly to use their real name.
Dear Editor:
Recently a letter from West Lafayette resident Harlan VanderMeer suggested advice for LGBT Purdue students in which he basically stated that they needed to go away. I’d like to address just a few of his points.
First, Purdue University is on record as valuing all of its students, staff and faculty regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity. This is a part of the firmly established Boilermaker values that everyone matters and can make a positive contribution. To that end, Purdue has established programs and offices to help facilitate these individuals. I wonder which group VanderMeer would like to show the exit next – the Black Student Union –The Latino Cultural Center – the thousands of Asian students ? I assume that he would not approve of the Muslim Student Association either, since as a Christian, he believes he speaks for all Boilermakers. Oops, Nontheists, you’re probably next. You might want to pack your bags to be ready for that Boiler Express ride out of town. This time the Underground Railroad seems to run south to that other Indiana school. (A fate I would not wish on any Boilermaker.) Perhaps he wishes to have an all white rural Indiana-only university, but those days are far past any forward-thinking world-class university now.
Second, the “petulant children” he identifies are young adults between the ages of 18 and 30 – who as far as I can see have the right to vote, serve and die for our country, drink alcohol (over 21), take legal responsibility for their actions and work hard to keep the university running. In fact, they will run the world some day, Mr VanderMeer, and I will be damn glad of that from the leadership I have witnessed in church, social and political student activities. They will probably even see fit to protect and promote your civil rights, even as you wish to curtail theirs.
Third, VanderMeer seems to be tired of listening to the demands of “Purdue’s so-called gay and lesbian community.” Really? You’ve actually listened to them? Because methinks you’ve not even tried. You assume they are out-of-state residents – most are not. You think they aren’t Christians – many are. You think they are some small minority who can be hustled away without anyone objecting – allies would disagree. And you think that they are just complaining. There are serious issues of safety, academic freedom, fear and repression on this campus, and frankly, these statements are an example of that.
Last, let me express my dismay at this kind of attitude from a West Lafayette resident. This is not the type of average citizen that it has been my experience to encounter. This is another reason why students at Purdue need institutional support to continue to produce a more conducive and welcoming community.
If Bigotry is truly one of the best Boilermaker Values, then maybe all Purdue students should reassess their choice of academic institution. I know better and I hope you do as well.
Dear Harlan VanderMeer, West Lafayette resident,
You are just one man, and there are more gay and lesbian students at Purdue than there are of you. I’m sure that instead of moving them, it would be far easier to relocate you. May I suggest Iran? Or maybe Saudi Arabia? Last I heard, homosexuality was still a capital crime in both those countries, so any queers who offended your sensibilities could be eliminated by the simple expedient of denouncing them. The added burden of being a Christian in an Islamic theocracy would heighten that sense of being persecuted that all you devout Christians seem to love. We’re taking up a collection, and when we have enough to send you over, please tell us your choice of location.
Editor.
Right on the money, where do I donate?
The next time I hear/read “hate the sin; love the sinner,” I’m going to SCREAM.
My favorite reply: Hate Christianity; love the Christian.
It isn’t just the ones who speak hatred, it’s the ones who remain silent, too. While many who share your faith may not share this person’s sentiments, you are, unfortunately, among a minority who would also be willing to freely and openly speak out against such vitriol.
While we’re dispelling misconceptions, stuff like this doesn’t make people hate god; ire is either directed at the ignorant person speaking nonsense, or it becomes just another of many reasons that people will cite for their disbelief in god. Disbelief =/= hatred.
This guy is nauseating enough without conflating his attitudes with other types of bigotry that we have no evidence that he possesses. Otherwise, good post.
He would fit in better in modern day Uganda, sadly.
“Most believers are not like this.”
So prove it. Get your silent majority of Christians out there, and SPEAK UP FOR THESE PEOPLE. Debate and ridicule this minority of Christians that are giving the rest of you a bad name. Confront the bigoted churches that likely exist in your own town. Call them out, visibly!
I hear this kind of thing all the time:
• “Most Christians are not anti-science”
• “Most Christians are not anti-women”
• “Most Christians are not anti-gay”
…but that’s not what the state of our government shows. If the majority of Christians, and therefore the majority of voters, in this country really felt the way that you claim they do, then the USA would be replete with equal rights, social programs, and excellent science education.
Apologizing on behalf of your religion does nothing but protect the very bigots for which you apologize.
“Hate the sin but love the sinner.” Oh, that line always galls me. Love the sinner? You don’t even *like* the sinner! Fucking hypocrites, they make me crazy.
And as for that “I see no reason to destroy these people, but…” remark… well, isn’t that just as all-fired noble as ever loving *fuck* of you. How very educated and civil! How generous of you, a Christian, to be so filled with love for your fellow man you see “no reason to destroy” gay people. Why, what more could one ask for? Especially from a Christian?
You know who needs to answer this asshole? Other Christians. Real ones, who genuinely take it’s teachings to heart (hint: they don’t think like this bigot). I hate the Christian church, but there are many good Christians out there. I know some personally. They need to teach this fool a lesson in Christian morality. Through words and persuasion, hopefully. Or just bitch-slap him around with a Bible for a while. Seriously, whatever works.
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Every time I hear that phrase my head tries to explode. Sort of like a volcano.
I was born and raised in Lafayette. I was happy when I saw the signature. It wasn’t any of my relatives.
Wait a tic, just wait.
Purdue’s mascot is the “Boilermakers”? Seriously?!?!?!
You have no idea the depth of hatred reserved in the 12th circle of hell for boilermakers. Especially those that use RTU communication over a Modbus protocol…
To me, Harlan VanderMeer sounds like the name of someone who would live down the hall from Grandpa Simpson. That, or it’s an anagram of something in the same way that “Tom Marvolo Riddle” is, with a strikingly similar personality behind it.
Sad but true.
Wait…a “boilermaker” is something other than a shot of whiskey dropped in a beer?
First of all, I want to say on behalf of each and every Christian on Purdue’s campus that we are all genuinely sorry about this. This is not okay on any level and is extremely embarrassing to our faith as well as to Purdue as a whole.
After examining the article more and looking up Harlan Vandermeer on the internet I have decided that I think this was a fake article meant to make a point about the Christian faith rather than a rational person making a serious suggestion. One positive thing about this is that it does force us as Christians to reevaluate how we treat LGBT people.
I know that this is a very sensitive topic so I apologize if I offend anyone, that is not my intent. Christianity has a core belief that everyone has sinned (Romans 3:23) and that all sins are equal (James 2:10). Using these verses we have no rational reason to go after homosexuality any more than someone who lies a lot. I feel that the reason many Christians have become so hateful is because 1) Homosexuality, for whatever reason, is seen as worse than other sins, 2) Christians often feel attacked by homosexual people and lash out as a defense mechanism and 3) It is so highly covered by the media. Obviously both groups keep firing hatred and animosity back and forth and that is wrong on both sides.
Christians do believe that homosexuality is wrong (1 Corinthians 6:9-10), and I’m genuinely sorry if that offends you. I know I am often hurt when I find that something I have done is wrong by God’s standard. I mean of course it sucks when someone calls you out on something. I do understand that many people believe that Christians should keep it to themselves or whatever. Unfortunately we cannot call ourselves a Christian and still keep this to ourself (Matthew 28:16-20). Of course we should do a better job of spreading His Word with love rather than hate as so many have done (Matthew 22:36-40). We have also failed at not being judgmental. The Bible actually says being judgmental is wrong (Matthew 7:1-5), and I think a lot of Christians forget about that. We lose track of the line between spreading God’s grace and being judgmental. I know that has been a huge topic in the Christian world as of late. Again I apologize for us, myself included, being judgmental of any kind of sin.
The majority of true Christians on Purdue’s campus and throughout the world, in my estimation, really do love homosexuals. Unfortunately, it is the few negative ones like this guy that get noticed and ruin what we are trying to do. When a true Christian points out that they believe homosexuality is wrong, they really are doing so out of love, although I am very aware that it does not come off that way or that we do a bad job of it.
Basically all this to say that I am very involved on various large campus Christian outreaches and this topic has very frequently been discussed lately, especially today. We are working on finding ways to make LGBT, and really any group or minority, feel loved by us and more importantly, by God. I just want everyone on this page to know that 1) We do not support this guy 2) We love you 3) God loves you.
If anyone wants to discuss this with me any more I would LOVE to talk with you. I put my full name because I don’t want to hide behind a screen name so feel free to look me up on Facebook or purdue email.
-Nick Rago
John 3:16
Yay, let’s quote the Bible!!
Romans 1: 26-27
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Yup, God made these people gay as a punishment!
Oh, and Paul definitely says that atheists and the irreligious were given their delusions as punishment for not listening to God, so don’t worry, he’s got us straight atheists covered, too!
Romans 1: 28-32
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Yup, calling all atheists inherently depraved and evil and nihilistic and worthy of death isn’t some recent trend or outlier in Christianity. It’s gospel.
And the “due penalty” for gay sex, as described in the Old Testament?
Leviticus 18: 22,29-30
22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable….
29 “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.’”
Besides the inherent sexism that only homosexuality in males matters…
So God says that homosexuality (along with a lot of incest and adultery) are reasons for God to destroy or exile a country’s inhabitants.
And that’s exactly why Christians who actually believe what the Bible says want to limit the ability of gay people to marry or have sex, and why they fight atheists and secularists: they think the entire country will be punished for the sins of the few, just like God did with Sodom and Gomorrah (and surely they’ll cite every other country that fell when it forsook God, like Rome, or the British Empire, etc.).
So, no, sorry, your religion doesn’t get a free pass just because you’re a better humanist than you are a Christian. I do applaud you for that, but your God wouldn’t.
Oh, more advice on the sexually immoral (a category Paul obviously thinks includes gays):
1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
Yup, there shouldn’t be openly gay (or alcoholic, or incestual, or adulterous) Christians who aren’t being actively shunned; they’re not to be even associated with in any way. Churches who are proud of accepting the sexually immoral as believers are specifically condemned by Paul.
You’re doing your religion wrong and so are most moderate Christians; it’s the psychopathic bigots who’re just doing what God says by persecuting gay people and atheists among them. And that’s why we attack Christianity’s part in things: it’s broken at the core. These are not fringe beliefs.
This response was very well done–I hope it is also being submitted to the letters to the editor?
Okay Nick, I’ll bite.
So, firstly, your whole message of “hate the sin, lover the sinner,” or whatever you want to call it, is rather facetious, particularly if you’re talking about something as basic to one’s personality and identity as sexuality. Sexuality defines who we are attracted to and, therefore, who we spend time with. It’s not just a condemnation of homosexual acts because it’s part of a person, part of who they are, and their loved ones, and their friends, family, and even anyone who doesn’t share your view that homosexuality is wrong.
Now, because you feel the need to drag your trite, meaningless platitudes out in people’s faces, you should expect to get roundly thrashed whenever you come across someone of intelligence who doesn’t share your views and sees you as a busybodied, nosy jerk. It’s not that you feel the need to share “god’s love” or whatever. It’s that you’re actively attempting to prevent others from sharing their own love, through shaming, intimidation, and threats (yes, telling someone they are going to hell is a threat, and in some ways more sick and twisted than threatening with death as death only happens once, but according to you, hellfire is forever).
So, when you come out and attempt to spread your views, you’re projecting an air of hatred immediately off the bat. Sure, you THINK you’re trying to “save” people’s souls, but many people who do believe in souls don’t think that homosexuality is wrong. You’re calling into question their beliefs as well (as an atheist, I can feel your pain, but the whole “don’t be a dick” thing is a two way street; respect is earned, not inherent). When you spout this whole mantra of “we love you, god loves you, etc. etc. etc.,” mostly it just makes you seem like a passive-aggressive jackass who wants special treatment for your beliefs but is not willing to give that to others.
You know what? That’s fine, too. As skeptics, we don’t generally respect beliefs. We prefer evidence-based reasons. The difference is right there, though. We disrespect our own beliefs and examine them through inquiry. You disrespect other’s beliefs because your belief tells you to.
So, as to your assertions:
1)”We do not support this guy”
All evidence to the contrary. You may not support the assertion that all homosexuals should leave Purdue, but you do support the notion that homosexuality is wrong, which is the same mindset as this guy, and you should be ashamed of that because it is untrue.
2)”We love you”
You have a funny way of showing it, by trying to prevent others from finding love because some book written by a closet case says so. Personally, I’d rather you didn’t love me if this is the form your love takes.
3)”God loves you”
Proof please. Remember, first you have to prove that god exists. Then you have to prove that YOUR god exists. Then you have to prove that he loves us. And then, you’ll have to redefine love, because what I’ve seen of nature, the universe, and especially the godfolk, I don’t think we have the same definition of love.
Christians do such a great job of making their religion look bad that I have to wonder, why does God bother with you people at all? Does he actually want Christianity to fail? Is he playing the world’s longest April Fool’s joke on the lot of you?
Couldn’t have said it better myself. I am sick of these nutters claiming, “THIS Christian is giving our religion a bad name, but not ME!” But the fact remains that Christianity has a long history of violence, bloodshed, hatred, bigotry, misogyny, and anti-homosexual attitudes. It has a bad name because IT IS A BAD RELIGION.
Janstince,
Thank you so much for the response, honestly. There is a lot to unpack here but I will do my best even though obviously I am far from having all the answers.
Please know that I’m really not looking for an internet debate, reading that letter and seeing all these comments really breaks my heart.
I will address your second paragraph first. I am more than aware that my view is not popular. The Bible does teach that every Christian will be persecuted (2 Timothy 3:12) and I am totally okay with that. As a Christian my life is devoted to sharing God’s love, not policing what is acceptable or not by others. Really I have always lived thinking that I can’t hold others to the same rules that I hold myself, especially those outside of the Christian faith. Personally, and the major of Christians as well, do not go around trying to stop homosexuals from loving each other. Yes I think it is wrong because the Bible says it is wrong, but Christians really don’t go around trying to break up relationships. We are in no way actively attempting to stop others from sharing their love. As far as the threats you are totally right. The outspoken “Christians” (whether they have a true relationship with God I don’t know) do often use those weapons and I am so so sorry if you or someone you love has been hurt by that. It is not right that they do that. I have never liked people who stand on street corners with megaphones saying everyone is going to hell. Being a Christian isn’t about not going to hell, its about having a relationship with God and following Him.
Third Paragraph: Although I don’t think it is right to proclaim everyone is going to hell, I do hold the belief that if a person were to not accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and live their life for Him they will go to hell when they die. I DO NOT use that as a threat or to scare you at all, that is simply what Christians believe will happen. Now believing this like we do, that an unsaved person will be forever punished in hell, how can we NOT tell everyone about it. I think that we focus too much on hell and not enough on how wonderful God is and the fact that He loves us and cares for us but when you think of your friends spending eternity in the worst place imaginable you really want to help them avoid that. Can you see where I am coming from on that?
I TOTALLY agree that the ignorant, unloving Christians (and to a large degree actual Christians) have ruined our reputation to the world. You are 100% right about that. I don’t want special treatment for my beliefs, I simply want people to truly know what our beliefs are. Also, I am not trying to be passive-agressive either. The most basic doctrine of Christianity is “Love God, love others” and I am just trying to make sure atheists, homosexuals, Purdue, and the world feels loved and is aware that God loves them, whether you believe in his existence or not.
Fourth paragraph: We are not taught that it is okay to disrespect other’s beliefs. We do believe that our’s is the one true way (John 3:16) but no where in the Bible does it tell us to disrespect others. Some of us can be disrespectful though, you are definitely right. We do not approach talking to people about our beliefs in the correct manner sometimes. I know people often say that saying that their beliefs will not get them to heaven is disrespecting, but like I said before, we believe that they truly will go to hell and will do anything to not see that happen.
1) Yes we do not think homosexuality is permissible in a Christian’s life. I don’t think it is “right” just like I don’t think stealing is “right.” You obviously disagree with me on that topic and that’s okay. We probably disagree on a lot of topics and that is totally fine. I don’t agree at all with how he handled it. We are supposed to love others, and that was in no way showing love. That is what I don’t agree with.
2) Again I’m not trying to prevent you or anyone else from finding love. I know we haven’t done a good job at all of making the LGBT community feel loved and I HATE that. I was talking with a large group of fellow Christian leaders about that a few weeks ago. We really have done a horrendous job of showing them, and many other groups, that Christians and God love them. I apologize for that.
3) That’s a very big argument to unravel, especially over the internet. I would be happy to talk you through that though in person sometime. I really do know that God loves you, me, homosexuals, and everyone else. I am trying to live my life to make sure of that.
Now for your first paragraph. That too is really heavy. Basically I try to separate what a person from their actions, so I love them but don’t necessarily support everything they do. Does that make sense? The problem is when Christians try to do that they often fail because they can’t separate a person from what they do. I hope that makes sense, I’m not the best at conveying my thoughts through text.
Anyway thanks again for commenting, I really mean that. Again I would love to talk to you more about this or get coffee or something. I really am an open book and would love to hear more about what you think and why.
-Nick Rago
Dear Editor,
Many of us are getting a bit tired of hearing about the demands of Purdue’s so-called “Harlan VanderMeer”. I suspect that many of those most vocal are probably out-of-state students. I have to ask why did they apply to Purdue in the first place, if all they are going to do is complain about it? These petulant children have ‘Harlan VanderMeer friendly’ schools in their home states, and the Hoosier troublemakers (if any) should have applied to Bloomington. As a 4channer, I machine the hate, but love the lulz. I see no reason to destroy these people, but they should not be working to destroy our Boilermaker values either. So the best solution for all concerned is for Purdue to set up some kind of Director of Harlan VanderMeer Issues on campus, someone well versed in transferring academic credits and the application process, so these young people can be directed to better pursue their values and ‘interests’ unhindered in more accepting institutions, and traditional Boilermakers who love Purdue and are happy with it as it is can better pursue our own values and interests as well.
Boiler Up!
David Davidson, West Lafayette resident
Nobody cares about your sorrow. Instead of making phony apologies that accomplish nothing, why not speak out against anti-gay attitudes to your fellow Christians? When they start insulting gays, do you protest, or do you keep your mouth shut for fear of losing friends or getting kicked out of church?
Well, then, stop thinking it is wrong! Just because the Bible says something, does not mean it is true. Just because people back then believed certain things, does not mean that YOU have to believe it. Why would you WANT to believe the same old bigoted, hateful, dangerous, superstitious attitudes that were preached centuries ago? What possible good can that accomplish? How is it helping humanity to evolve in any way whatsoever? I guess you can’t be bothered to think of humanity’s future when you are waiting for Jesus to return, but the rest of us would like to make the world a better place for all.
Your apology is not accepted. Not by me, at any rate. It comes off as condescending and holier-than-everyone. How do you propose to teach about God’s love, when the Bible that God allegedly inspired teaches that homosexuality is evil? Or are you just going to skip those bits and pretend they don’t exist?
Silverbuttons,
Thanks for responding. I do believe my apologies accomplish what I want them to do, which is apologize. And for the record yes I do speak up the few times this issue does come up. Generally my entire friend group has shown nothing but love and kindness to LGBT people. The few times a problem arose, I or one of my co-leaders quickly dealt with it and it was over.
As for your second statement, I’m not sorry that I believe what I believe, I am sorry that it offends some people. I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and that it has no errors, regardless of how old it is. If anything its age speaks to how powerful it really is, if it were just another “life manual” it would have been tossed away years ago. There are documents that are much much older than the Bible that we still hold as true facts despite its age. If something is true its truth does not diminish with age.
I believe in Christianity because I have a personal relationship with Christ. I know this seems hard to believe, and until it happened for me it was, but that’s the case. I strive to be like Christ more every day, and if more people did live their lives for Christ, I do believe the world would be a better place. Please please don’t feel like I’m coming with a holier-than-thou attitude, because that is not my intent. I just want Purdue to know Christ’s love. That’s it.
I don’t skip over those parts at all. I think they are very important because they were included in the Bible. I think it is just like a parent telling a child that stealing is wrong. God tells us that homosexuality is wrong and he expects us to live to that. Again I am not holding you personally to that standard, but if someone were to ask me if it is ok or not, I would say no.
I hope that helped you understand where I am coming from. Like I said above I would love to talk with you at length about this, not to judge you or try and convert you, but to sit down and talk about what you believe so I can better understand your position and vice versa. Thank you again.
-Nick Rago
Is it Perdue, or Purdue? We have Perdue here in Saskatchewan (free lessons in pronunciation, if you’d like). It’s French for ‘lost’.
Je ne suis pas perdue, et vous?
On another point, Jen, the link on the CFI poster is to the old site, I will point that out to them.
A bunch of freethinkers from Saskatoon, SK. will be in Kamloops, BC the weekend of the Women in Secularism for the Imagine No Religion conference. All the best, we’ll be thinking of you.
The first thing I think of is “ladies and gentlemen of the supposed jury.“
Bloomington has its share of bigots, too.
Remember when those jokers kept tearing down the Pride flag flying in front of Inner Chef?
The actions of these Christians are causing people to “hate god”?
The same god who commanded the execution of homosexuals in the Bible?
That god?
You DO skip over the part where you’re supposed to KILL gay people though, right? I mean come on now, either the Bible is inerrant and you are commanded to kill gay people, or there are parts that aren’t true, in which case you might want to consider what else might not be true in the Bible.
And we are all pretty familiar with the usual rationalizations people use for not following the commands all the way through, so tell me: do you think it was EVER morally acceptable to own slaves or kill gay people? If not, then you DISAGREE WITH THE BIBLE, because the Bible says God DID command these things at one point in time. I don’t really care if he changed his mind, either these are immoral commands or they are not. So you have two choices: you can admit that you DO skip over some parts, in which case you should maybe take the time to reevaluate the entire thing, or you DON’T skip over anything, in which case you are forced to admit that at some point in history God commanded his followers to kill gay people and condoned (and in fact ENCOURAGED) slavery. You don’t get to have it both ways.
I appreciate you making an effort, and I feel like you’re one or two steps away from actually having the right idea, but you can’t very well expect people to take you seriously when you say that you believe the Bible is inerrant if you just ignore the moral (as well as historical and scientific) dilemmas that doing so creates.
Really? I think christianity gives christians a bad name. The ones who manage to be decent people are decent in spite of christianity, not becuase of it. They’re the ones who manage to ignore all of the genocide, all of the injustice, all of the raping, murdering, misogynistic bullshit. As someone else has said, it’s the hateful bigots who are closer to what christianity really stands for.
I’m sure you’re a decent person (despite calling your best friend’s sexuality a ‘sin’) but I for one cannot accept that christianity is really just a big group of lovely people who love everyone, spoiled by a few bad apples.
Oh you poor, poor persecuted christians. Other people having rights is EXACTLY like having your own taken away, isn’t it? And poor you, to be living somewhere where christians are so persecuted that it’s not uncommon to hear of them being bullied into suicide or murdered, just for being christians. No wait, that’s gay people. But you have to live in a country where you may well have no right to marry the person you love, becuase you’re a christian. You only recently got the right to be openly christian in the military, and you’re waiting to see if that will be taken away again. Coming out as christian is so socially unacceptable, it could lead to you getting shunned at work, ditched by all your friends and disowned by your family. No, wait, that’s gay people too.
It also says eating shellfish is wrong, and that if you rape a woman, she has to marry you. And yes, christians do try to actively prevent people from sharing their (gay) love, what with christian insistance that schools dare not mention that gay people can lead normal, happy lives, christian-run ex-gay conversion camps, ludicrous claims that gay marriage is the same as bestiality or child marriage and the campaign of vicious christian-based bullying against anyone even perceived to not be completely straight. Lets not forget lunatic claims of gay rights causing earthquakes/hurricanes etc. Christians regularly go out of their way to make life for gay people as hard as possible.
Thought experiment: Go back through your post and substitute ‘homosexual’ for an ethnicity of your choice. See if you still think it sounds ok. A person’s sexuality is not something they chose. It is an important part of a persons identity. It is a part of who they are. IT IS NOT, IN ANY WAY, COMPARABLE TO STEALING, YOU DISGUSTING, BIGOTED ASSHOLE. Seriously, how fucking dare you compare something that forms such an important part of who a person is to STEALING?
You’re a bigot, and you’re part of the problem. Take your not-pologies and shove them, and keep your bigoted nose out of other people’s sex lives.
Working to destroy Boilermaker values, eh?
(P.S. Don’t click on that link. No seriously, don’t.)
It’s also a boilersmith or boilerwright.
Tbh, the bible is far more on his side than the Christians who are against him. Hating on gays is par for the course for a true bible follower.
All sins are equal? Really? So a little white lie told to prevent hurt feelings is the same as torturing and murdering an innocent child? And God will send you to Hell FOR EVER for either? That seems to be your implication.
Christians do believe that homosexuality is wrong (1 Corinthians 6:9-10), and I’m genuinely sorry if that offends you. I know I am often hurt when I find that something I have done is wrong by God’s standard
All I see there is Paul being a bigot. Why to you assume that he speaks for God?
Also, have you actually bothered to read verses 1-8? You focus on one off-hand comment when the entire point of the chapter is to condemn lawsuits between Christians. Why are Christians not picketing the offices of personal injury lawyers for acting against the will of god? Why is there not a website http://www.godhatesjudgejudy.com ?
Ok so this will most likely be my last post because I was not looking for an internet debate and clearly that is what this has turned into. Again I would love to have an actual conversation with anyone in person rather than over the internet. But I’ll try to get to all your questions as best I can.
Yellow Thursday,
First of all, thank you for being kind in your post. This is what I and the majority, as best I can estimate, believe. I do believe a lie is the same as murdering in God’s eyes. Obviously in human standards I much rather you lie to me than kill me, but all God sees is a sin. To go to Heaven, we must be absolutely, 100% perfect because God is perfect. Obviously it is impossible for any human to be close to perfect. Luckily for us, Jesus died for our sins so we could achieve that standard, as a free gift. When someone accepts Christ into their hearts they accept that gift and God now sees us as sinless. Of course we still mess up, quite a bit actually, but we are now 100% forgiven for these sins. So yes, I do believe one lie is enough to keep us out of heaven, but let’s be honest and say that everyone is far from simply just lying once in their life time and that’s it, whether you think homosexuality is wrong or not. That’s what I believe. I’d love to know what you believe and why.
Marshall,
I know you said you didn’t want to hear this but yes, many old testament laws have been changed. No this does not mean that the Bible is errant, but when Jesus came, a lot changed. This doesn’t imply that it was originally wrong, jut that God WANTED to change it. Let’s also do a thought experiment. Let’s just hypothetically say God is real for a second, whether you believe it or not just go with me here. Ok so an all powerful God exists, and he is all-knowing and can only do good. Now say this all-powerful God wants to change how things are done, why wouldn’t he be able to? Do you see where I am coming from on that? A lot of the Bible is quoted out of context as well. I am actually not familiar with the particular verse you are talking about so if you could provide a reference for that God wants us to kill gay people I would love to examine it more using its context. You know it says in the Bible “there is no God.”? Once you examine the context you realize that really reads “A fool in his heart says there is no God.” I think that is in Proverbs. I know your case is probably a bit more complex than that but its a similar idea. Also slavery in Jesus’ time looked nothing like North American slavery. It was more like signing a contract to work for a certain period rather than being enslaved, just so you know.
Thank you for realizing that I really am trying here. I am putting forth an effort to learn about your argument and tell you about mine. If you want to talk more I would LOVE it, you definitely make some great points and if I didn’t fully answer them than I’m sorry. Or you could add me on Facebook so we can talk in a less hostile environment than a message board.
Twist,
I am not trying to draw pity from anyone. I simply realize that in life I will get attacked for what I believe and I am okay with that. Don’t pity me because I am proud of what I believe and whatever persecution I get I will be fine with. That being said I HATE that gay kids are bullied, directly or indirectly. That is not ok. THat is not how Jesus would want to us to treat anyone. Even if a Christian were to call an atheist or homosexual an “enemy” (which still would be totally wrong) we are called to love our enemies (Matthew 5:4).
I am SO SORRY that Christians, real or fake, have treated gay people like this. That is so wrong and it breaks my heart to see that happen.I do actively speak out against it but there is only so much I can do especially when every Christian I know are not the ones that are out of line. I am so sorry, and I know that doesn’t change or fix anything. Change takes time and I really think change is coming. I am trying my best to help Christians understand that we don’t have to agree with homosexuals to show them love. That day will come, but it takes time.
Yes the old testament had a lot of “interesting” rules. You can refer to what I said above for that. Before Christ came that is how one would get to Heaven, by following all these rules. It wasn’t an ideal situation and that’s why God changed it. All those rules were a temporary fix. I don’t know why God chose to do that, like I said I don’t have all the answers, but that’s what He did and I trust that He knew what He was doing.
Homosexuality is much different than an ethnicity. I know we are going to disagree about that. I know you will cite that you believe that you were born this way. Honestly, I am still trying to figure out what I believe about that. I do think homosexuality is an act while ethnicity is simply your skin color, but past that I don’t know really.
Please don’t call me those names though. I know you or someone you love has been hurt by Christians and I am genuinely sorry about that. I am trying to change that. Please know that I am trying to be part of the solution, not the problem. There is no need to call names or yell. Like I said so many times already please add me on Facebook or meet with me in person so I can listen to you. Because I want to, honestly. Please don’t feel that I am talking down to you or anyone else that is reading this. I am so sinful, more than a lot of people. I am no better than anyone else. I hope this helped clarify where Christians are coming from. Hope you have a great day :)
-Nick Rago
It’s Purdue, as in John Purdue who gave the state of Indiana $150,000 and some land to have the school named after him.
I don’t pity you. If I felt anything for you, it could most properly be descibed as contempt.
So you’re stating that a person actively can actively choose who they are attracted to and who they have sexual and romantic feelins for? Citation?
Where in my post did I say that I was gay? I’m not saying whether I am or not, but I did not state that I was and it’s interesting that you jump to that conclusion.
You think wrong. A person’s sexuality is an important part of their identity, part of what makes them them. Among other things, it can play a part in determining whether someone’s life will be easy or difficult, you know sort of like someone’s ethnicity can play a part in whether their life will be easy or hard. It doesn’t mean that it definitely will either way, but it plays a part. Go and look up privilege.
Oh, and ethnicity is just a skin color? Right. I’d forgotton that we lived in a completely color-blind, post racial society. I mean, it’s not like unarmed black kids ever get shot dead for wearing hoodies while black, is it?
You don’t know really? Well aren’t I surprised.
There are certainly bigots, but it’s way better than anywhere else in Indiana. (It’s also just a better city, in general :D )
Look twist I’m not looking for a fight. I did not mean to insinuate that you were gay, I had poor wording on that and I’m sorry.
Obviously there is no citation either way on this topic, at least a credible one that I am aware of.
I do look at people in a color-blind way. I do think ethnicity is just a skin color. Yes not everyone does that, and I am sorry that’s the case.
Again there is a lot here. I don’t want to fight with you, that is not my objective. Honestly I would love to talk to you about this more in person or on Facebook. We obviously won’t solve anything on a comment thread on a blog. Again I’m sorry for the way Christians have treated others. We are working on fixing this. Please look me up so we can continue to learn about what each other believe and work towards a point of tolerance on both sides.
-Nick Rago
Facebook.com/nickrago
You say insinuate as though it were something bad. Which to you, it obviously is.
I don’t really have any interest in talking further with someone who thinks that being non heterosexual is comparable on a moral scale to stealing things.
Go read your bible, and this time try not to skip over or rationalize all the torture, genocide, misogyny, condoning of rape, condoning of slavery, condoning of child murder, xenophobia and general absurd ridiculousness of the whole thing.
Hey that’s fine, I can’t make you talk to me. If you ever do want to talk you know how to find me. Thanks for your time. Have a great day!
-Nick Rago
Cherry-picking the bible has a long and infamous history.
Blended fabrics and shellfish especially get a pass.
You forgot that other part of 1st Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
In other words, socially shunning people is how you’re supposed to show love to homosexual people as a Christian.
For all of Jesus’ crap about breaking bread with prostitutes and going to the despondent and most sinful, and how everyone has sinful thoughts that still count as sin, that doesn’t mean that the church would ever let an outwardly sinful person call themselves Christian. Paul says to shun them, handing them to Satan to be destroyed so that their souls might be saved.
So you’re doing it wrong. You’re supposed to at least act like you hate gay people, fornicators, and so on. You shouldn’t welcome them among you. They aren’t welcome if they think they can be gay and Christian.
Cherry-picking your beliefs just shows how empty the Bible is of any coherent message or real standard of morality. God by the Bible’s words hates gay people. God thinks they don’t belong in his church: he GAVE them the gayness in the first place, and that’s the New Testament (Romans 1:26-27). Same thing with atheists: Paul calls us deceived by God himself for our sinfulness, and that we’re all incredibly evil (the rest of Romans 1).
So, please, don’t keep fooling yourself. God really is that hateful in the Bible, New Testament and Old. This perfect love crap that it says God has is weaker than most people’s basic humanism. Most people don’t think people that don’t like them deserve eternal punishment. Most people don’t punish their creations for the way they were created. We have more morality than the bronze-age God of uncivilized savages.
Aw, snap, you too?
“As a Christian, I hate the sin, but love the sinner.”
My fundie sister used that line, saying Jesus said it, and I responded by asking when she became a Hindu. “Whaa?” she said.
I informed her Jesus did not say that, Ghandi said it.
(Likely not one of his good days, I think)
Ditto.
Well, I am a gay hoosier headed to Purdue next year. I promise to be a loud and proud gay and a good person/student/boiler. The only things tainting the Boilermaker values are narrow-minded self righteous bigots like yourself. Don’t preach to me about values, I sing in my church choir, I am the secretary of the community service club, a member of the National Honor society, and I started the Go Green Club at my school, meanwhile you spend your time judging people (a sin in itself) and you really shouldn’t do that because “I hate the sin, but love the sinner”. Have a wonderful day and may God have mercy on your soul
“…and the Hoosier troublemakers (if any) should have applied to Bloomington.”
Well, if they are at Purdue then there is a good chance they DID apply to Bloomington and just didn’t make the cut.
;)
Not disagreeing on that point.
Is the Vid still packed with hipsters? That whole place went to shit after the re-model.
The sort of person who would write this shit likely has no internet presence. This is Indiana we’re talking about, and while the university campuses are islands of relative sanity, the areas surrounding them are…well, Indiana.
With every little thing that seems to be developing throughout this subject material, all your viewpoints are generally fairly exciting. Even so, I appologize, but I can not subscribe to your entire strategy, all be it stimulating none the less. It appears to everyone that your opinions are actually not entirely rationalized and in actuality you are generally your self not really completely certain of the argument. In any event I did enjoy looking at it.
I can: the biblical god and his angels. This person sounds like exactly their kind of follower – except that they stopped at letter writing. Any casual reading of the bible should reveal the preferred solution for dealing with those who refuse to bend a knee.
Here, Paul is specifically referring to Christians (brothers in Christ) not non-Christians. A “Christian” homosexual is a reprobate, not living in alignment with Christ.
A Christian knows that it is sinful and wrong to be a drunk, an adulterer, or a homosexual. Those that practice such things know
better yet willfully rebel against God. To associate with someone like that is telling that person, “Hey, it’s just fine you are living a wicked, immoral life. I don’t mind at all. In fact, I might just join you!”
If you read further into Corinthians you will see at 15:33 “Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”
It is human nature to want to be like the people you hang out with. If you hang out with drunks and queers they will, directly or indirectly, attempt to influence you to do what they do and to be like them.
By not associating with Christians who live wickedly you send a clear message that living an unholy, spiritually unclean lifestyle is completely unacceptable. “You can thumb your nose at Christ if you want to but I won’t.”
They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.” II Peter 2:22
A Christian should treat a non-Christian homosexual the same as someone with a mild case of schizophrenia: there is some kind of mental problem, or genetic aberration, causing one to act contrary to one’s gender. It may also be a moral or character deficiency, or just plain bad judgment (Wgetting high or drunk and hanging out with the wrong crowd). To such people you can tell them, gently, that with Christ one can overcome this deficiency.
A Christian who turns to homosexuality knows better and should be shunned.
I have had to do this myself: a Christian friend got involved with the drinking and partying crowd and turned away from living a pure life. I had to stop being this person’s friend because he kept offering me marijuana to smoke, to come to the party with him.
Nope, I walked away from the friendship. 20 years later he is struggling with smoker’s cough and alcoholism. He looks 10 years older than he is. His drinking interfered with his ability to form lasting relationships and so he is alone and childless. I feel sorry for him but am glad I had the bible to instruct me to shun such people lest I end up the same way.
Despite my atheism, Eccles, somehow I’ve managed to avoid the same vices as yourself. So I guess the big difference between your morality and mine is that I wouldn’t turn my back on a friend.
Sadly, I don’t get out much. Grad school eats up my time. I was last there for a birthday bar-crawl-ty and it didn’t seem too full of hipsters, but we left early.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_eYSuPKP3Y !
In case you haven’t watched the video linked by Neal (which I strongly encourage), Mr. Tube is a spambot. Which means his post will likely disappear and Neal’s and mine won’t make any sense.
Back on topic, I’m reminded of my college days in the late 60’s, when ALL college protests/riots/disturbances/etc were caused by “outside agitators”.
Reinforcing my long held belief that Paul was a raging dick.
“It hurts me when people do this because it causes people to not even want to be friends with me because I’m Christian.”
Do you live in the US? I get the feeling that you do. 80+ percent of the US population considers themselves to be Christian. If people do not want to be friends with you it’s probably for some other reason.
Nick —
You claim that you believe that homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says it. The Bible is full of all kinds of shit that you don’t believe — examples too numerous to mention.
The Bible says whatever you want it to. Face it — the real reason that you are so hung up about GLBT people is because your cult leaders trained you like a bad dog to be so. Are you so hung up about shrimp? No. Why? Because hating shrimp does not put money in the pockets of your cult leaders like hating people does. Hate sells — homophobia is a hefty cash cow for the fudigelical right. Suppressing reproductive freedom for women and suppressing women in general is a huge cash cow for those same creeps. It’s all about money and power, and on some level — the level that you suppress and fear — you KNOW it.
Oh — and the Bible says that xtians will be persecuted. Of course it does. Every religious group from every major religion to little cults of a few people makes the same fucking claim — “you will be persecuted, ridiculed, and misunderstood for knowing the real truth” — every single fucking one of them. Is this just a coincidence? If you think it is you are a complete idiot.
Yes, just gently inform them that Demigod #71998B applied directly to the brain can help them overcome the terrible, devastating affliction of BEING WHO THEY ARE. Of course, you seem to think that homosexuality is ‘acting contrary to one’s gender’, showing that you don’t even fucking know what homosexuality (or, as it turns out, gender) IS. Additionally, fuck you for taking REAL afflictions that ACTUALLY HARM PEOPLE and using them as a cudgel with which to beat (‘gently’, I’m sure) gay people into repression by telling them that they are SICK FOR BEING WHO THEY ARE.
And ‘a moral or character deficiency or just plain bad judgment’? REALLY? How stupefyingly ignorant of reality do you have to be to think that who you happen to be attracted to sexually could EVER be affected by your moral standards or ability to make sound judgments? You know what ACTUALLY comes from ‘a moral or character deficiency, or just plain bad judgment’? I’ll give you a hint: you and the other members of the Biblical Bullying and Bigotry squad ARE the ‘bad crowd’.
Yeah, I know what the Bible says. I know what Christians are supposed to believe. That doesn’t give you an excuse for still believing it once you reach the age where you can reasonably be expected to take responsibility for your own actions and beliefs. What you believe is SICK. The entire fucking thing, from top to bottom, is immoral and cruel and has held back societal progress for far longer than ever should have been permitted. STOP FUCKING BELIEVING IT; or if you’re really so deficient in morality or character to do that, then at the very least keep it to yourself and stop making the rest of us miserable to please your imaginary dictatorial monster of a master.
For fucks sake, we shouldn’t even have to tell you all of this. This shouldn’t even be an issue in the 21st century, but here we are, in 2012, actually having to explain to you that your fevered imaginings, however vivid, are not a license to treat people like shit for something that is not only a significant and important part of who they are, but doesn’t actually affect you in any appreciable way. Unbelievable.
If Harlan gets so upset over reading about the sinners at Purdue he should stop reading about the sinners at Purdue.
Bravo.
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu236/iceshaved/Fark/orsonclapping.gif
I was all ready to call out the exact same thing, but then I saw “methinks” thrown in the middle there, and I’m not sure which is worse.
I’m lost – “boilermaker” in this sense refers to the people who make the boilers on a steam locomotive, which is a large, high pressure vessel that, if designed or built incorrectly (or intentionally crashed into each other), can result in a pretty damn big explosion. Building ones that don’t blow up is a source of pride, particularly in the Midwest, where the growth of the rail system revolutionized the economy, allowing agricultural trade with the East.
What does that have to do with electronic communication protocols?
I have a suggestion. When one of those “good” Xtians shows up to tell everyone else how wrong they are and that we just need to embrace the “love” of their imaginary friend in the sky, challenge them to take the time to read the whole bible, cover to cover.
If they actually do it and pay attention to what they’re reading, there is a high probability they will quit being a Xtian. There is lots of truly awful stuff in that mishmash of a book. Just maybe a large enough dose of the crap that their sacred book is full of might open their eyes.
It worked for me back in high school, almost 50 years ago, but I tend to be stubbornly persistent. Many of them may give up after the first few upsetting parts and won’t want to read more.
I really like your writing style, wonderful information, thank you for putting up :D. “Every moment of one’s existence one is growing into more or retreating into less.” by Norman Mailer.
The name sounds kinda Afrikaner to me. Maybe he’s a white South African expat who hasn’t got over his apartheid mindset?
I do so love being told who I am at the core of my being is a sin. Also the ‘my best friend is gay’ thing, that is so old it creaks. I dont’t hat your god, I just see no evidence he exists at all. As a pansexual trans woman I am sick and tired of people justifying their prejudice with reference to a fictional construct.
I don’t just think so, I know so. A male is specifically designed to mate with a female and vice-versa. It is the normal and desirable order of things. People who attempt otherwise, even using the feeble excuse of love, are mentally confused and acting contrary to their gender.
It is completely stunning that some people, even among those who hold advanced degrees, seem unable to understand this simple concept: boy goes with girl, male goes with female. Your biological sex defines your gender. Gender = biological sex, not the redefinition as provided by the nincompoop feminazis (hat tip to Rush Limbaugh for the term). Feminists and flippin’ stupid psychologists do not get to redefine gender no more than homosexuals get to redefine marriage to include themselves as if they are somehow normal.
Murderers, pathological liars, drug addicts, and prostitutes are also just “being who they are” but it doesn’t make it a good, moral choice.
Poor moral standards and/or mental illness can cause one to make unsound judgments. The homosexual is both of unsound mind and deficient in character and morals. The homosexual is sexually attracted to a person of the same sex; ergo, that person has a mental problem becasue that person is acting contrary to their gender.
But I do believe it and I will keep believing it because it is the truth. I take full responsibilty for my beliefs.
What I believe is the truth, that is, homosexuals are sick in the head. They need help. When a child is born, the parents don’t exclaim “Oh, I hope my child grows up to be a whoremonger. Oh, you know, it would be so quaint and delicious if our beloved child grows up to be a prostitute. Oh, and even better, wouldn’t it be just so wonderful if our child grows up and becomes a homosexual?”
Sorry, but normal human parents never wish that for their children, that they become homosexuals. After the fact they may accept what their child has become, or they may reject it, but never do they embrace it with joy no more than they do upon finding their child is addicted to heroin.
Embracing homosexuality as normal is progress? Really now! Sorry, but not so. That is not progress, it is regression. It is a sign that a portion of a population has become so ingnorant and confused that it cannot determine the proper function of gender in society. It is a sign that a population is on the decline and will soon dissipate into factions of fools squabbling over what is right and what is wrong because they lack proper moral authority to determine right from wrong.
I will never stop believing, even if laws are passed making such beliefs illegal. My final authority on faith and morals lies with the bible which supercedes all government authority, any authority claimed by science, psychology, or any other human proclamation.
No, I will not keep it to myself. I will never shut up about it. Not ever. Even if the courts make it illegal I will not be silent. One of the problems we have today is too many Christians have been silent concerning sin, of letting evil go unchecked. If the queers would go back into the closet where they belong and stop trying to redefine the meaning of marriage, and trying to change my culture, I wouldn’t have much to say. When I see a rabid dog defecating on my lawn and showing its teeth, well, I need to take action, first by alerting neighbors concerning the offending beast, then by organizing forces to effect its removal.
But it is and will continue to be so as long as Chrisitans are willing to stand for what is true and righteous. People doing evil should never be allowed to continue in comfort and with the blessing of a corrupt judicial system aiding and abetting immorality. Sin is a reproach to any people.
It does affect me. I have to monitor textbooks and TV and the internet so that when I see the false message that homosexuality is a good thing, that it is just a normal part of being human and we should accept it with open, loving arms, then I have to intercede, have to take time out to teach to my children that being queer is wrong, that it is not something to emulate, to look upon with pride, or hope to become.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
I sincerely hope you’re a troll. Failing that I hope you never have children, because innocent kids should not have to hear the hatred you spew.
I can’t wait until your despicable fucking beliefs fade into irrelevance. We’re winning, and we’re winning because we’re right. Kick and scream all you want, you still end up on the wrong side of history.
The fact that you’re passing your hatred on to your children is fucking horrible. I really don’t know what else to say. You’re disgusting.
-If a friend of mine considered my sexual activities to be sinful and had the audacity to say that to me, yet still wanted to keep me as a friend, their number would be deleted from my phone fast. The entire notion of ‘sin’ is treated by xtians as if it is some universal, undeniable, obviously objective truth out there for any and all to see. In addition, xtians don’t seem to get that their holy book is no more ‘right’ than any other religions’ holy books. These holy books make assertions about the world around us and about humanity that are not researched, are unverified, and fly in the face of so much of what has been discovered by science. Sin is dependent upon Adam and Eve existing. That hasn’t been proven. Sin is dependent upon God existing. That hasn’t been proven. Until such time as one can prove that God exists and the events in the Bible are an accurate description of what he wanted written down (even the contradictory stuff, of which you can find right at the start, with Genesis Chapter 1), the religions of Christianity, Islam and Judaism are fanciful mythologies. As such, there isn’t much that can be taken from the Bible and applied to the real world.
Taking it all on faith is not reasonable. There’s no evidence to support a flat Earth. If someone were to hold that position, saying they ‘have faith’ and rejecting reason and evidence, they’re not being reasonable. Conspiracy theorists who don’t believe we landed humans on the moon are not being reasonable. People that believe homeopathy is effective are not being reasonable. People that believe their unproven religious tomes reflect the wishes of a deity that wants his subjects to worship him are not being reasonable (even worse, the cherry picking is truly sad to see; so many believers ignore the atrocities God committed and/or condoned in the Bible; also ignored are the unpopular teachings of Jesus Christ-the ‘reject your family completely before you can follow me’ always springs to mind).
-I believe that Christianity is wrong, just like every other religion humanity has created, and I’m genuinely sorry if that offends you.
I also believe that sexual expression between consenting individuals is not inherently right *or* wrong.
Your god is quite obsessed with the bedroom actions of people. Perhaps its because he lacks a physical body and has never experienced the joy of *any* kind of sex. I find it hard to believe that theists are cool with a god voyeur who has an unhealthy fixation on the sexual antics of humanity.
Could you do me a favor though, and ask the big guy up there why he created the gays if he condemns their actions? He’s responsible for everything according to your mythology. If you’re omniscient and all powerful, and you create the entire universe, you don’t get to whine and say “I didn’t know those women would sleep with other women! That’s wrong. How did they turn out that way?” Your god knew everything that was going to happen when he created the universe. He knew every decision everyone would ever make. He knew everyone that would ever be born. He knew all the actions every human being would make.
Yet he still created it all. Yeah, according to your mythology, he created a bunch of really swell, decent human beings. However, he also created several individuals who like genocide as much as he does.
Eccles, I’m sorry. I’d really like to have a serious discussion with you, but I find it impossible to read your posts without imagining you speaking in the voice of Marcus Bachmann.
-I’d like to say on behalf of me, myself, and I that you probably shouldn’t attempt to speak for others. Most especially in this situation, because unless you’ve spoken to every Christian on campus, you have no way of knowing that they’re all sorry about that. In fact, given how Christians pick and choose what to follow and what to condemn, it’s likely that there are several Christians that agree with VanderMeer.
-It’s embarrassing to your faith only because you’re blinded to the words in your holy book. The condemnation of homosexuality as well as the punishment it recommends for queer individuals is right there in that damn book. That you don’t want to stone gay people to death, or that you appear to have a shred of human decency speaks more about your moral values, not the inhuman ‘values’ found in your religion. In other words, you’re good in spite of your religion. Not because of it.
-You must not be terribly familiar with the Rick Perry’s, Rick Santorum’s, Michelle Bachmann’s, and James Dobson’s of the world. They’re all self professed Christians who would probably think Vandermeer’s letter doesn’t go far enough. While the letter may not be from a real person, it doesn’t change the fact that far too many theists believe the message of the letter. Ironically, they’re being far more Christian than you are because they support the inhumane teachings found in the laughably named ‘Good Book’.
-I suppose better late than never. Still…”reevaluate”? Let’s make it even more simple for you. LGBTQ individuals are human beings just like you and I (and ostensibly the hate filled, vile individuals I mentioned above). As such, according to Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights,
Just let that sink in.
We’re *all* equal.
Period.
Christianity is at odds with universal human rights (not exactly a newsflash).
-Funny thing, that ‘core belief’. It’s a belief found in a book that contradicts itself many times, and contains many factual errors, and was written and re-written by various humans over a few thousand years.
Too many Christians follow a these ‘core beliefs’ as if they’re truthful. Curiously, it’s a ‘truth’ only Christians know about. Not everyone knows this truth. Moreover, many people have heard of, but reject the ‘truth’ of the bible. Many people find that the actions of the god of the bible to be monstrous, inhumane, and abominable. Humans who commit the kind of actions that the Christian god does are condemned. Yet, he gets a free pass, even after slaughtering almost every living creature on the planet in the flood.
Contrast the inconsistency of Christian beliefs with the simple philosophy of humanism:
Man made religions like Christianity, Islam and Judaism are not reliable sources for morality, decency, ethics, or really anything that governs the actions of humanity. The arbitrary rules, the nonsense traditions, the adherence to ‘things for which there is no evidence’ (or to use the more popular word: faith), the homophobia, the misogyny, the xenophobia, the genocide and more…these are not things worth admiring. These are not honorable. They are not moral. They are not nice. They are not good. They are not justifiable. They should be rejected and condemned. Before Christian beliefs can begin to justifiably claim the mantle of ‘truth’, you have to establish the god of the Bible-the baby-killing, genocidal, women hating, gay hating, idiotic (see Exodus for the perfect example of how to keep an idiot like god busy), slavery endorsing, voyeur-even exists. That hasn’t been done. Christians *assume* he’s real. When you’re indoctrinated from birth to believe that he’s real, it’s damn hard to shake that. Given the harm religious belief causes, I agree with all other atheists and secular humanists who feel that religious indoctrination is child abuse.
-I find much of the animosity and hate by those who believe in equality to be quite justified.
I find the animosity, hatred, bigotry, and discrimination displayed by religious believers to be UNjustified.
Also not fond of those who murder gay people simply for being gay. Curiously those murderers frequently tend to be religious.
-And I couldn’t call myself a decent human being without telling you that your bigotry is showing.
-The naivete you display is staggering. Do you honestly believe the drivel you just put forth? Have you researched it? Looked at opinion polls across the planet? If so, sources please.
If not, then I guess you’ve *met* the vast majority of true Christians in the world so you’re qualified to make that deeply stupid statement.
-The *few*?? What country do you live in? This crap happens all the time in the United States. Anti-gay bigotry is slowly dying out, yes, but it’s kicking and screaming the entire time and making sure everyone knows it’s still here.
Do you have limited access to the Internet? Were you homeschooled as a child? You come across someone that is woefully ignorant of the world around you.
-No.
No. No. No.
You do NOT get to redefine the word ‘love’. Loving someone doesn’t involve bigotry and discrimination just because they aren’t like you. Newsflash: you can believe what you want, but just believing the world is flat doesn’t make it so. Likewise, just because you feel the bible is right–can’t fathom how anyone would think that, given how WRONG it is so many times–doesn’t mean it actually is.
Also, don’t come here and pull a ‘No True Scotsman’. It doesn’t help your case.
Oh, and criticizing me because I am attracted to other men, and then claiming it’s out of love is massively insulting. First off, you don’t have any reason to criticize my actions. Me sleeping with another man doesn’t affect you any more than you sleeping with a woman (please wrap it if you can find a woman that will put up with your insensitivity and bigotry; we don’t need more children in this world brought up confusing ‘love’ and ‘hate’)
I’d also like to point out that no, you don’t ‘love’ me. You don’t even know me. We’ve never met. I dislike the way so many people toss around the word love. That word is almost meaningless today, given how religion has redefined it to mean anything.
-The best way to embrace all people would be to reject your entire vile religion. And yes, I find Christianity to be vile. You can find horrible examples of god’s treatment of humanity throughout the OT and NT, but the genocide by way of the Flood is more than enough reason for a compassionate human to reject that evil being.
Know this, as long as you hold onto your archaic, anti-progressive, anti-human rights religious belief, you’re going to find it difficult to reach many people with your message of a ‘loving god’.
I just want you to know that
1) I’m happy.
2) no you don’t. You don’t even know us.
3) your god is just as likely to exist as Puff the Magic Dragon.
Twist:
-QFT!
I wonder if the guy has even met a gay person. I’ve encountered a few theists who found out I was gay. So many of them simply don’t understand the concept that this isn’t a choice. I didn’t wake up one day and decide to be gay. There’s no upside to being gay. There is no life of debauchery (though even if there was, there’s nothing wrong with that, if an individual decides). There is no abandonment of responsibility. And I’ve had my biological clock ticking for 10 years now. I can’t find a boyfriend, let alone think about children (and I’d love to be a father). I’m still waiting for the people out there who would actually *choose* to be gay. Where are they? I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but puberty was when I realized my attraction towards men. I didn’t get to choose which way my hormones would lead me. I didn’t choose to think my 6th grade gym teacher was an attractive man. Hell, I couldn’t even understand it. All I knew was that I kept looking at him in a way I’d never looked at a guy before. I also never looked at girls the way I {from then on} looked at guys.
When heterosexual men find out I’ve never had any sexual contact with a woman and respond “if you’ve never tried it, how do you know you don’t like it”, I respond “how do you know you don’t like sex with men if you haven’t tried it?” That usually shuts them up as most of them “get it”. Sometimes I simply add that I’ve never had a desire to have sex with a woman. I think that there are so many things about women that are beautiful and I can admire a woman’s body, but I have no desire to engage in sexual activities with them.
Nick:
-This tired canard? Again??!!
The bible has plenty of errors in it. They begin on the first page of Genesis Chapter One.
You say it has no errors. Anyone with a critical eye, and even a smattering of knowledge acquired during high school (heck, middle school) can see the errors quite easily. To refute your asinine statement, I just need one.
Kindly explain to me how you can have vegetation without sunlight? I hope you’re familiar with photosynthesis. Plants are rather dependent upon sunlight for their very existence. Yet your evil, despotic, dictatorial deity somehow created vegetation before he created the sun. That impossibility is even worse when believers attempt to say that each day equals an enormous span of time. Vegetation is created in verse 12, while the sun is created in verse 16. That wouldn’t be possible even if it were six actual days that it took to create everything, to say nothing of flat impossible if thousands of years passed between each of the first 6 days.
While you’re at it, can you explain why it took your so called ‘all powerful’ creator 6 days to create everything? Omnipotence is supposed to give him the ability to do anything. He could have snapped his nonexistent fingers and created everything in 6 picoseconds.
Also, why does this entity-one who doesn’t need to eat, sleep or breathe-need to rest of the seventh day? Was he tired? Did he work too many hours that week? Rest is something we humans need, not invisible, all powerful genocidal sky daddies.
-No. A thousand, a million, a billion times NO.
The world would be a better place with a lot LESS of Jesus’ “love”. Once again, your use of the word ‘love’ doesn’t match up with how humans typically use it. You use the religious sense of the word, which has redefined love to mean everything from “God is love” to “even if you beat your children to death, out of love, they’ll thank you in heaven”. That’s not love. That’s murder. I reject anyone who thinks murdering children is the same thing as loving them.
Now let’s look at the Bible to see what “teaching” of the savior we should follow:
-These are family values? This is the guy you want to be more like? These are the ravings of a self centered, egocentric, narcissitic sack of shit, not the teachings of a peaceful, loving man who wants to unite humanity.
Go home and read the bible front to back. Then go spend some time travelling the world. Perhaps along the line you’ll learn what ‘love’ and ‘compassion’ truly are and come to reject the immoral teachings of the not-so-Saviorific Jesus Christ.
The religious stupidity runs deeper with this one than Nick.
-Wow. I never knew that. I’d better let all my heterosexual male and female friends they shouldn’t hang around me any longer. I’d hate to directly or indirectly influence them to sleep with members of the same sex.
God Damn, religious belief pisses me off. You blindly obedient sheep who take it on faith that this immoral book speaks any truth…you’re so divorced from reality. I feel sorry for you on the one hand, but for the most part I find people like you contemptible. You and all those like you give humanity a bad name.
It is indeed a pretty sucky religion. Instead of trying to make it look good, they could choose another religion, one that doesn’t require them to clean out most of it just to make it acceptable in a civilised society.
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