In which we learn something more about the nature of gods


They’re liars. Kent Hovind attempts to explain the contradictions in the Bible, and it’s easy. The Bible is a trap. God intentionally put in errors so he can catch the people smart enough to notice them, and drive them away from the faith. Because, apparently, he only wants irrational people to believe in him.

If I was god…I would write the book in such way that those who don’t want to believe in me any way would think they found something — “a-ha, here’s why I don’t believe” — and then they could go on with their own life, because they don’t want to believe in god any way.

I would put things in there that appear, without digging, to be contradictions. I don’t think that’s deceptive, that’s really wise for our heavenly father to weed out those who are really serious.

I know this is difficult for an ethically-challenged person like Hovind, but that actually is deceptive.

Comments

  1. says

    If I was god…I would write the book in such way that those who don’t want to believe in me any way would think they found something

    God thinks like you! You’re both assholes.

  2. Larry says

    While most people think of god as genocidal psychopath and mass murderer, s/h/it is also known as a bit of a joker. In addition to the easter eggs planted in the babble, s/h/it also has buried fake fossils throughout the world inn order to test the faith of the sheep. Hovind quite rightly points out that anyone capable of spotting these bits is too intelligent to believe in a religion.

    Kenny, you don’t know the half of it!

  3. Becca Stareyes says

    You know, the more I heard from folks like Ken Hovind, the more I suspect that, even if I was 100% sure their god existed, I wouldn’t think he was some avatar of morality I needed to emulate. (And Hovind seems to be saying that anyone who dares question (his conception of) God and the Bible deserves eternal torment.)

  4. jaybee says

    Kent is right.

    The bible is kind of like the tax codes. They appeared to put in a free citizen loophole that scumbags can fall into by thinking that they can get a free ride without contributing money to maintain infrastructure and social services. But with the merest bit of investigation good people realize the free citizen movement is a sham. In this way the government can weed out the misanthropes.

  5. Rich Woods says

    I don’t think that’s deceptive

    Says the tax evader and serial liar, whose anti-science arguments have been denounced as fraudulent even by other creationists…

  6. dick says

    I thought “God” couldn’t lie.

    Numbers 23:19
    “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
    1 Samuel 15:29
    “Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”
    Hebrews 6:18
    so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.
    Psalm 89:35
    “Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David.

    But the old Bible Bogey can be a genocidal maniac.

  7. slithey tove (twas brillig (stevem)) says

    Interesting he acknowledges that the Bible is only for people who don;t read it, or for those who do read it won;t try to use reason to understand it. Just follow cherry picked rules blindly (cherry picked by priests, of course).
    {just my interp of that snippet quoted in the OP.}

  8. dannysichel says

    I’m reminded of the notion that the reason “help me smuggle money out of my country” scam spams have so many typos and grammar mistakes is to filter out people who’re smart enough to recognize typos and grammar mistakes.

  9. A Masked Avenger says

    As an aside, a less moronic Christian named Origen made a less moronic suggestion: God put errors and contradictions in the Bible so people would realize that they shouldn’t be taking it literally. I.e., more or less the opposite of Hovind’s suggestion.

    Observe that people noticed errors and contradictions as early as the third century, and at least recognized them for what they are rather than deciding that they’re God’s way of shit-testing believers.

    Also notice that even in Roman times, people understood the Bible better than modern fundies.

  10. Rob R says

    So… an omniscient god creates people who have no intention of believing in him, and then needs to insert traps in his book to figure out who those people are.
    Seems like God just needs to get better at record-keeping.

  11. DrewN says

    So it’s basically the same principal as the scam emails I occasionally get from the president of the national bank of Nigeria. Just make the claims so far fetched it weeds out all but the most gullible & credulous.

  12. alkisvonidas says

    A Masked Avenger

    Also notice that even in Roman times, people understood the Bible better than modern fundies

    They ought to, they’re the ones who put it together in the first place.

    (It’s always fun reminding fundies that their sola scriptura faith is based on the canon decided by Roman Catholics. If, as Jack Chick maintains, the Catholic Church has corrupted the Bible, how can they be so sure they have the actual canonical books and not some forgeries?

    Not that I buy any of this s/h/it, anyway…)

  13. markr1957 says

    I’m sorry, but my take on the lies, contradictions and fictions in the Bible has always been that the authors never heard a single word from the mouth of any s/h/it…
    As with every other known religion, Christianity too is a man made device invented for separating fools from their money.

  14. blf says

    the authors never heard a single word from the mouth of any s/h/it

    Not authors insomuch as editors, especially for the OT, which is heavily based on verbal oral traditional stories / legends. (Sorry, but the notion that someone sat down and “wrote” a book of the OT, much like a modern author would sit down and write a novel, drives me a bit batty…)

  15. Anton Mates says

    I don’t think that’s deceptive, that’s really wise for our heavenly father to weed out those who are really serious.

    Because…why? What happens if an unserious person gets into Heaven? Why does your Heaven need an immigration policy designed by Donald Trump?

  16. John Morales says

    Dick @8:

    Larry, that’s a good one – “God” should, henceforth, be known as “s/h/it”.

    A term which is used with relish by those who rail against the gender-queer and, by extension, against trans* people in general.

  17. says

    Dick @ 8:

    Larry, that’s a good one – “God” should, henceforth, be known as “s/h/it”.

    No, it’s not a good one. As far as the ‘net goes, that became popular on usenet as a way to refer to those considered trolls. It was meant to be demeaning and dehumanizing. It is not good, it’s not clever, it’s just shit. Please, remember, the failure mode of clever is asshole.

  18. F.O. says

    I would put things in there that appear, without digging, to be contradictions.

    I think we’re not being fair to Hovind’s argument. (Yes, even Hovind deserves fairness.)
    He’s saying that the contradiction disappears if you “dig”; so it’s there only for those who want a cheap “gotcha!” excuse not to believe.

    It’s still a terrible argument, but please let’s avoid strawmen.

  19. woozy says

    But… that … doesn’t … make … sense!

    You put contradictions to give the atheists a reason not to believe? Wouldn’t the atheists simply be the ones who don’t believe anyway? Or the contradictions allow us to tell who are the atheists? But isn’t that easy; the atheists are the ones who don’t believe in god.

    I mean, if you want to weed out the atheists wouldn’t it make more sense to *not* give the atheists a reason to disbelieve and to make the bible airtight. The way you won’t have believers saying “I want to believe but this contradiction confuses me” and instead you’d have atheists saying “well, okay, it’s consistent… but I just don’t want to believe”.

    Isn’t that a better way way to weed out those who aren’t serious?

  20. woozy says

    @23 I’m wanting to be fair to his argument, but honestly, I can’t even comprehend it.

    Wait, So is he saying it’s like an obstacle course elimination round?that’s kind of weird because the atheist wouldn’t even sign up. Finding out who isn’t “serious” is easy. They are the ones who aren’t serious.

  21. abelundercity says

    So in addition to being petty, jealous, vindictive, intolerant, and violent, God is also dishonest?

    Well gosh, that certainly inspires me to plant my butt into a pew come Sunday morning, I must say…

  22. abelundercity says

    “Does that bother anyone here? The idea that God might be fucking with our heads?” – Bill Hicks

  23. unclefrogy says

    the thing that always made no sense to me was saying that god said he was god was one the dig reasons to believe he (somebody) was god and don’t listen to anyone else who might disagree.
    My mind will always say “but that is what all the liers and con men say!”
    this guy is one of those who say little else
    uncle frogy

  24. blf says

    Why does your Heaven need an immigration policy designed by Donald Trump?

    Doesn’t it, in effect, have one already?: You can’t get in unless you’ve paid your local approved official trained child-rapists enough tithes. All others are banned.

  25. slithey tove (twas brillig (stevem)) says

    sure, God wants to scare away “thinkers” to go do something productive rather than spend all their time thumping that bibble like everyone else.
    aarrgghh my imagination is running wild….

  26. vereverum says

    The Urantians have a similar dogma about their book. Perhaps this is the start of some intercultic ecumenicalism.
    He may have read Martin Gardner’s book on Urantia and thought it was a good idea.
    I’ll bet fandors are expensive to maintain.

  27. says

    I don’t think that’s deceptive, that’s really wise for our heavenly father to weed out those who are really serious.

    If he’s omniscient, why would he need to “weed out those who are really serious” by any other means than already knowing who they are?

  28. F.O. says

    @Woozy #25: I think he’s saying that God is making it easy for quitters to quit, that He wants only people who actually take the time to study and understand the deeper meaning of the scriptures, ie, a Courtier’s reply.
    Pretty shitty way for an omni-omni-omni being to make Himself known, but hey, whatever panders to Hovind’s gullible audience…

  29. says

    Blf @ 29:

    Doesn’t it, in effect, have one already?: You can’t get in unless you’ve paid your local approved official trained child-rapists enough tithes. All others are banned.

    Wouldn’t do them any good, they aren’t getting in either.

    Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
    14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

  30. dick says

    Caine, PZ, please accept my apologies. I had no idea of the associations related to that term, so I won’t be using it again. I’ll stick with Bible Bogey.

  31. John Morales says

    woozy,

    Isn’t that a better way way to weed out those who aren’t serious?

    But that’s not what PZ quoted; quite the opposite.

    (Does no one read what is actually written?)

  32. says

    Dick @ 35:

    I’ll stick with Bible Bogey.

    Works for me! After all, Yahweh is one bogeyman a lot of parents insist live under their children’s beds, and in their heads.

  33. dick says

    Caine, I was brought up with that shit, & consider myself lucky to have escaped from it.

  34. says

    Dick @ 38:

    Caine, I was brought up with that shit, & consider myself lucky to have escaped from it.

    Yeah, me too, and I feel the same way. Catholicism in my case, old school, lots of hell, hell, hell!

  35. Saganite, a haunter of demons says

    Huh, isn’t that going to put him in trouble with Ken Ham and other “literalists” of that sort? “There are no contradictions” and all that jazz?

  36. dick says

    Caine, I got a mixture of Catholic & Protestant. It was the Catholic crap that finally did it for me, aged twelve. I’m in my 60th year as an atheist. In all that time, I’ve not, even for one second, doubted my original conclusion that the God of Christianity was as much a human fabrication as all the other gods I’d read about. Everything I’ve learned since then has reinforced my atheism.

    I find it absolutely deplorable that anyone nowadays can believe in Bronze Age superstitions. I’m pretty darned sure that religion is overall a bad thing. I wrote a poem that I send to religious proselytizers ; I’ll take the liberty of inflicting it upon you. :¬/

    EUDEMONIA

    Jehovah, Christianity’s Almighty Lord God,
    lords it over Heaven, though he’s an amoral clod.
    A minor god, called Satan, calls the shots in Hell:
    he tortures sinners, for eternity, and atheists as well!
    Confused by Christian dogma, no god-fearing fogey,
    can fathom the nature of the Bible Bogey.

    He’s his own father, and son, and a goddamned ghost,
    which a priest can conjure up out of wine and toast!
    Christians boast that their god, in his Empyrean lair,
    is omniscient, omnipotent, beneficent and fair.
    But with the problem of theodicy still unresolved,
    their god, from his moral turpitude, can’t be absolved.

    Yahweh. god of Zion, is a meshuggeneh and jerk;
    he set Jews strict rules on when to work,
    and how to dress, and what to sup or sip,
    and giving baby boys the snip.
    Yahweh’s a nudnik; so, what else is new?
    Is a shiksa now kosher, or is the Pope a Jew?
    Religious rules, begot by Bronze Age nomads,
    have got observant Jews by the gonads.

    Allah, god of Islam, is a fierce great djinn;
    he demands under ‘Islam’, literally, ‘Submission’.
    Apostasy is treated just like a crime;
    they’ll threaten to kill you, to keep you in line.
    And if you dare draw Mohammad in a comic cartoon,
    there’ll be chaos and killings from here to Khartoum.
    So, face Mecca at prayer, five times a day at least,
    and stick your ass up in the air, for the Religion of Peace.

    Hindu, Sikh, Jain, and Buddhist,
    Zoroastrian, Baha’i, Mormon, and Scientologist,
    Spiritualist, Wiccan, the New-Ager into woo,
    Confucianist, Shintoist, and Taoist too.
    The most religious peoples often are the most barbarian,
    but the least religious are the most egalitarian.
    Yea, verily, those of each and every religion,
    are mired in the miasma of superstition.

    The gods from the Bronze Age up to modern times,
    and from the Arctic down to tropical climes,
    have begotten theology that’s unsubstantiated twaddle,
    on what an invisible and silent god’ll
    devise as its inscrutable, eschatological plan,
    but all the gods were made in the image of man.

    So, why should yours be the “One True Faith”,
    in a magical, phantasmagorical, astral wraith?
    The varieties of religious experience reveal
    a sense of a god’s immanence can feel quite real,
    but feelings of the numinous are clearly psychological,
    so belief in a god is really quite illogical.

    It’s evident we have just this one life,
    with all its pleasures, challenges, toil, and strife.
    As social beings we evolved our moral sensibility,
    combating selfishness, lust, and venality.
    Human evolution’s due to Natural Selection,
    so life derives no purpose at any god’s direction.

    Religion should have no say in the politics of a nation,
    its revelations and dogmata lack a rational foundation.
    Aristotle’s eudemonia, (human flourishing), conflicts
    with the social engineering that religion inflicts
    on societies that could democratically endorse
    rationality-based ethics, mores, and laws.

    Religion validates discrimination and oppression;
    religious faith stifles logic, research and education.
    Materialistic monism makes for scientific understanding;
    objective evidence for a spirit realm is utterly lacking.
    So a new era beckons, where humanity, at last, could be,
    as reason infers, one great family.

    But there’s no need for you to blame your genes;
    your faith’s the fault of socio-religious memes.
    They corrupted your mind with a contagious infection
    of superstitious ideas that can’t stand close inspection.
    So, cast them out, get rid of the inanity,
    so you can revel in your true HUMANITY!

  37. says

    Dick @ 41:

    It was the Catholic crap that finally did it for me, aged twelve.

    Did for me a bit earlier, age eight. Just received communion, and host Jesus went down the wrong way, and I was choking. A dilemma, because to touch the host was a mortal sin, so if I stuck my finger down my throat and dislodged it, hell. On the other hand, if I did nothing, that would be a form of suicide (or so I thought at the time), and that’s a mortal sin. So, hell. I decided the hell with it, I wanted to live. Without gods.

    I’ll take the liberty of inflicting it upon you.

    That’s not inflicting! Thank you for sharing that, I enjoyed reading it and I certainly agree, all the way.

  38. dick says

    Thank you, Caine.

    I guess it would make one doubt the precepts of religion if the god tried to choke you. I’m glad it worked out for you in the end.

    Good night.

  39. karpad says

    Caine, clearly you were only choked because god found your lack of faith disturbing.
    The Lord Vader works in mysterious ways.

  40. Holms says

    Weird, if I was a god that actually existed, and I wanted to make my existence known, I would do so in some clear manner that could not be misunderstood nor ignored. Why the fuck would I want to validate scepticism?

  41. mithrandir says

    Kent Hovind’s god is a cruel and capricious creature, and I’m only going to worship such a being out of a well-founded fear of being tortured by said creature. Now, I’ll be perfectly honest and say that I would do that – I’m a wuss when it comes to pain – but if that is going to be my motivation for worship, you had better make it abundantly and unambiguosly clear that said creature exists and wants to be worshiped in a certain way. In the words of the great philosopher Homer, “What if we’ve been worshiping the wrong God all along, and He’s just getting madder and madder?”

    Kent just hasn’t demonstrated the existence of his sadistic monster to a sufficient certainty for me to cower in fear of it. That’s all there is to it.

  42. wcorvi says

    I think you are all missing the point. Hovind’s point is, that even when the bible is wrong, it is right. Those errors and mistakes were intentional. This is a very new take on the bible being the inerrant word of god, as it means finding mistakes proves nothing.

    It’s sort of like the evidence for a coverup on UFOs is that I’ve never heard of the incident.

  43. Athywren - This Thing Is Just A Thing says

    Of course, Hovind’s conception of the lair god is also consistent with a god who put legitimate contradictions in there that could be handwaved away by those who are desperate enough to believe in something, so they could weed out the credulous. Such a god may actually prefer genuinely skeptical non-believers to overly gullible believers, and how could you tell? If the bible is designed as a trap for the gullible, there would be no theologically accurate way to appeal to the bible to show otherwise.

  44. Athywren - This Thing Is Just A Thing says

    Yes. Lair god. It’s a god that makes its home in caves and dungeons. Obviously.

  45. slithey tove (twas brillig (stevem)) says

    @47:

    Those errors and mistakes were intentional.

    kindalike a SAT for admission to Heaven? Only those who read it and find all the errors and contradictions gain admission?
    Hovind seems to be sayin it backwards, that He put all the errors in there so everyone who finds them will be scared away from even trying to get in.
    ~~~ ah, so the intelligent will become the “sinners”, maintaining the population of thieves and murderers for all the “saved” to pray for protection. ~~~
    maybe that’s where the Mafia got inspiration for their “protection” racket.
    Hovind has a brilliant pretzel logic