This video is going around twitter among the usual suspects right now. It’s by Reap Paden, and it’s about how I’m not a feminist. Well, it’s also about “hypocrisy…and a dream”, but it never gets around to showing either. And while it’s by a known idiot, it really is just clips of me and Rebecca Watson at Skepticon 3, with titles that say more about Paden than either of us.
Hmmm. You could argue that I’m a bad comedian, but there’s nothing anti-feminist in any of those clips…that is, unless you think that humor and joking about sex are somehow incompatible with feminism.
It gets worse, though, and Paden left it out — I did have that woman come up on stage so I could have sex with her. Of course, it was in a talk about sex and genetics, where I used a deck of cards to illustrate recombination, so it was a little less provocative than you might think — we swapped cards for a bit. Lasciviously.
And the clip with Rebecca is a bit that John the Other didn’t understand, either — it was Rebecca yanking JT’s chain, and the handler she was “abusing” was in on the joke from day one.
It’s revealing when this is the worst dirt he can dig up on us, isn’t it?
Ah, I’m glad you posted this. People have been sending me this on Twitter for a while, but my computer only runs in safe mode so I don’t have any sound. Since they only put subtitles on parts of it, I was wondering what it was all about. Not that I was worried really; even without the sound it was pretty obvious that there were jokes happening. Does anything interesting happen in the parts that I can’t hear?
Gasp! You had sex on stage! :O
Yesterday someone posted a link to an article of yours back from August 2006 – “It works, bitches” (in which you quoted the XKCD comic of the same title) – and used it as an example of your being a sexist!
Apparently, the premise of the video is that feminists don’t have senses of humor. By that definition, he’s right – you’re not a feminist.
Too bad his premise is all wrong.
Some people need a hobby.
That’s some mighty fast straw grasping, from Team Misogyny.
Not really anything surprising in this video. Although anything posted by PZ related to sex has an odd “rule 34” awkwardness to it.. I’m happier with the squid, at least there I know what’s going on…
They genuinely seem unable to tell the difference between harmless banter and actual harassment. I suppose this stems from the same lack of emotional competence that leads them to simultaneously shriek abuse at people, and sob about being bullied.
Wow… That was the worst attempt to demonstrate hypocrisy since well, the LAST attempt by one of these buffoons to demonstrate anything.
Feminist’s rights activist?
“If you win I have to submit and have sex with you” ….sounds like a really kinky card game to me :P and of course all feminists hate sex, kink not to mention card games!
Even I’m not this bored.
Yeah, anyone who thinks the fat homely old man in a committed monogamous relationship talking about sex in public on a stage might actually be confused with a pickup artist has some serious perception problems.
Oh christ, that was embarrassing. My organs flinched at the sheer embarrassment generated by desperately ineffectual quote-mining and shithouse production. This is the best he can come up with?
Actually, I think the biggest flaw in the video was stupidly leaving in the part about “killing and eating”. Reap either has to take the murder/cannibalism seriously and make an accusation along those lines, or admit that the having sex part is just as meaningless as the kill and eat part. He can’t have it both ways.
I don’t think it’s sexism, but it could be a form of sexual harassment. I cringed a bit at the card game, but mostly because it seemed that the person in question was a random selection from the audience and may not have wished to be part of your jokes about sex. The video was just clips, so maybe in the full talk it was known that the card game would be one about the two participants having sex later in their hotel rooms. Though even if that were the case, as a speaker you have a certain authority over your audience and when put on the spot some people may be less willing to reject participation in events thye wouldn’t participate normally. If this was staged and you had a willing participant to target with your jokes about having sex with them, I think it’d be more comfortable for me.
I don’t think this makes you anti-feminist or sexist, just that you may have made some mistakes that put some women into uncomfortable situations unknowingly.
That was funny :D I was like one “oh you!” after another.
The Paden guy is committed to hatred, not worth the time :)
@MKandefer
Looking at the video now (his skepticon 3 talk that is).
He says he’s going to make analogies with a card game and he asks for a volunteer and picks the woman in the purple shirt. So at the very least you volunteered to come up on stage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ch1XFqmGeM
Card game starts at the 8:30ish mark.
^This.
Ah, but see, if there’s anything we’ve learned from the MRA brigade, it’s that if they perceive a totally seductive ‘come hither’ message, it was objectively there, and their reaction to their same, well, obviously, that’s just what you wanted, you saucy minx, you!
(/Yes, you may now thank me for making the suggestion that somehow this whole obsession is some bizarrely disturbing sublimation of raging lust on their part, and it’s your stage shows which are somehow so setting their hearts afire. And you’re welcome.)
The person in the audience was a volunteer. If she’d shown any reluctance or embarrassment I would have let her step down, no problem.
I can’t believe they didn’t include the part where you were gambling for your crumpled bag of nuts! :P and yeah she seems to be laughing and having a good time.
It’s so hard to believe that they actually believe such quote mining is some accurate indicator of something.
Or that anyone else would take that quote mining seriously. It’s pretty obviously jokes taken out of context even if I hadn’t been there for the talks.
I just don’t understand what the maker of that video could think he’s accomplishing.
A pity, but since it was tied into his explanation of the stakes involved, it would have made it all too clear what the card game was about (i.e. not just an excuse for sex jokes).
Ok, I can’t listen to anything more (3 min is long enough). Reap can’t even cut n paste a video to make his point. He fails again.
Reap, leave cherry picking and selective out of context quotes for theists. They knoe how to pull one over much better than your tired ass.
PZ stands exposed as one of the world’s greatest monsters!!!!
(If only.)
Wow. What a perfect exposé of Paden’s sexism problem. He honestly thinks these items represented sexism. I mean, I can at least understand how someone particularly dense or drunk might think PZ’s talk was sexist…I mean, there WAS discussion of sex (a proposal even!) while a woman was present. That’s the epitome of sexism, amirite? But Watson is sexist because she pulled a practical joke on someone who didn’t have a penis? Yeah, Paden’s got some logic issues.
Wow, they are like Republicans, take a couple of clips completely out of context and present them as “evidence”.
So, when you make a sexist joke it is clearly a joke a not meant to be taken seriously. But when someone else makes a sexist joke it is clearly a great big hairy naked sexist remark.
This is a plain assumption that women are intrinsically better suited to be belly dancers. You can’t get much plainer than “we did a photo shoot and she made me keep my clothes on.” A good response would have been to admit that [you’d] made an unthinking, stupid remark and that [you’d] like to retract it.
Look, in all seriousness, anyone who thinks you are sexist is obviously taking your comment too far. Just like you took Shermer’s comment too far. I think you should admit that you were clearly exaggerating the meaning behind Shermer’s comment. Or admit that you, like Shermer, occasionally make sexist remarks but they should not be taken seriously. It’s hypocritical to write a raging post about Shermer being an unthinking, stupid sexist because of one remark and then defend yourself from making the same type of remark.
TBH, the ‘belly dance’ comment did make me cringe a bit. Without knowing if the person thus addressed is actually known to be into belly dancing, it sounds a bit too much like “sois belle et tais-toi”.
However, I do not get the point of this video. Even if PZ Myers and Rebecca Watson sometimes would fail to practice what they preach, then what? Does that suddenly make it okay to be a misogynist? Does it mean that they, and everybody else, should stop trying to do their best? (Hell, no!)
Umm apparently they did do a photo shoot for the skepchick men’s calender by the sounds of it. Also I don’t know how telling her to do a belly dance (sounds like an in joke if you listen to the skepticon 3 recording) is saying that women are better at it. And yeah they were killing time while pz was working on getting his slides running.
I haven’t finished the video yet, but I had to say that I absolutely love the slow pan zoom about 30 secs. in. Maybe because it lingers too long as if what you just said is so shocking our brains need time to process it fully.
Nope probably not the calendar but still some sort of photoshoot.
Ah, you don’t think, hence the statement about taking Shermer’s comment to far. Typical MRA type. Don’t think, attitude, no evidence, no sense of humor.
What actually happened:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/12/12/thats-not-a-response-michael-its-a-denial/
It’s not ‘just one sexist remark’ anymore. Shermer had that chance, and he just demonstrated he meant it.
Okay I saw the segment. PZ, I’m using your card game to talk evolution at my cousins. The part where you say you don’t get to choose your discard, we’re going to take one out at random… that’s very instructive because it’s surprising.
I know nobody asked for feedback, so sorry in advance… I’d suggest you focus on the game and then explain the analogy afterwards for future talks, because a lot of the time during that segment you had the volunteer just standing there doing nothing and looking awkward.
Errm, you need to know the context: Skepticon put out a calendar featuring the speakers, many shot in tasteful nudity (you know, artfully posed to conceal). I had earlier walked into the photo session with considerable trepidation — not only am I reluctant to expose my hideous true form to the world, but I didn’t think it would make a good selling point for a fund-raiser — and to my relief, they handed me a pirate costume to wear. David Fitzgerald: totally naked. Me: keep your clothes on, and here are some heavy layers of velvet to drape over your body.
And some shame.
Skepticon did sexy calendars for promotion for a couple of years. Yes, PZ was in one of them. So was Lauren, who he was talking to in this bit. She’s the emcee for the con, so the bellydancing bit was probably a callback to something said before an earlier presentation, probably also during technical difficulties. It may or may not be captured on one of the other videos from SK3.
There are some things in life you are just glad to be learning at 3am while drunk. That way they can’t cause permanent damage.
;)
It’s not the remark, it’s the remark AND the follow-up. Fuck me, you people are dense.
Am I the only one that found it painful that the voiceover was on only one channel? Especially since the rest of the audio was stereo.
I can say some of those comments were possibly in bad taste, but not having been there, or knowing the participants inherently, it all seemed fairly innocent.
Also, I still don’t see the point of talking about abusing her handler. Was he thinking it was a guy she was abusing? She clearly says “she” when talking about her handler. Or are people who try to be feminist not allowed to have fun with friends?
Basically, yeah. The MRA/slyme types have decided that if a feminist has ever told a dirty joke or worn revealing clothing or used inappropriate language, they are not allowed to complain about sexism or rape threats or sexual harassment. I seem to recall several of them implying that women posing in a sexy calendar constitutes a declaration of sexual availability to all men forever.
” 4.
rorschach
13 December 2012 at 8:00 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
Some people need a hobby.”
I think this is their hobby :-/
That only applies to Rebecca Watson, and also counts as a handy argument against anything she says or does. Because as we all know, Rebecca is the root of all MRA evil.
@Methuseus
Don’t you see you put a feminist like Watson in charge of a woman and they totally take advantage of the situation and abuse their position! And its totally not a practical joke they were playing on JT that was taken out of context in the video!
I think that’s probably closer to their point.
*sigh* (most) Non-jackass straight men have no concept of their own beauty.
I listen to Reap’s podcast regularly. There’s a bit more sadness to the show than some of the other shows.
That’s pretty much it. In their mind, feminists are uptight prudes with no friends and who despise fun of any kind, sexual or not. So the fact that PZ was making jokes about sex shows that OMG he is such a hypocrite and is not a true feminist!
Seriously, Reap Paden is youtube commenter level stupid. If he is representative of the atheist/skeptic movement then that movement needs a lot of improvement.
@bradleybetts #41 “I think this is their hobby :-/”
Then maybe some people need a *different* hobby.
A bit more frothing at the mouth hatred and anti-feminism too.
I’m just confused who this video is meant to target. I don’t think it’s feminists, because you’ve got to be pretty thick headed to think some obviously edited video from the MRA camp about a conference in 2010 is going to sway their opinion on a guy that speaks daily on his own blog and they can personally meet at conventions. Also why include the bit with Rebecca in that case, doesn’t that just increase the burden immensely? It wouldn’t be PZ or Rebecca because they were there and know the context as well as anyone can. It could be other MRA people, which is more likely considering the Rebbecca bashing and the way the message ends, but in their eyes, aren’t feminists these ultra radical power hungry monsters willing to do anything to keep ‘the man’ down? isn’t hypocricy like a serious step down the evil ladder from that?
The only other group left would be the non decided people who are just getting into the rift business, but the video assumes so much knowledge about what PZ and Rebecca stand for, what they’ve said and how this is a supposed example of their hypocricy that those people will just be left confused.
Just a particularly inept example of the routine ‘pit-style post-Otisean narrative: Watson & Meyers r not only Wrong about Feminism and bully-baboons their also too Hypocrites!! Gotcha!!!
@noastronomer
“Then maybe some people need a *different* hobby.”
Maybe it could be a quiet hobby, may I suggest knitting or Sudoku?
My point was that both you and Shermer made off-hand, seemingly sexist remarks to an audience that were taken out of context. Why is it that you can defend your remarks as bad jokes, but Shermer can’t say what he really meant? In his ‘followup’, he states his remark began by denying the questioner’s assumption that the women/men ratio is not 50/50. Shermer goes on to say “for the record I don’t believe for a moment that women are not smart enough to do nonbelief thinking, or any other type of cognition for that matter.” He says the comment was taken out of context, and then states he does not agree with the meaning people took from it. Maybe he should claim to be a bad comedian.
No good. I’ve known too many knitters!
Took me a minute to parse that, Chas. Nice!
Also remember:
Us feminist women, we’ll never get a man, even if we wanted to, while the feminist women only do it to get laid.
If you spot some contradiction there it’s because your brain is apparently still getting some oxygen.
Okay, this post is already shaping up to be highlarious.
Uh-oh. MichaelD has invoked knitting. ProfPZ would be kind to warn him of the ‘*hey!* indignant powers of the craft he would saddle with these ‘special’ people! If MD hears ticktyticktytickty and it’s getting louder…run.
If people want to make videos that prove their foolishness to an international audience, it’s evidence that will never go away and will invoke some to engage their googlefu to find more context.
@R2Dbag
Frankly to me and I think others the idea that women are too stupid for skepticism was never the main problem in the piece it was the idea that speaking out and being active about it was more of a guy thing without mentioning or looking at any of the reasons (like harassment, or self perpetuating lists of male speakers) that more women don’t play a more active role.
@cuervodecuero
Eeeek Flees the knitters O.O
Actually I was just trying to think of hobbies that seem quite and keep to yourselfy and pz’s I wish religion was like knitting came to mind.
michaeld seems to have the same initials as Madame Defarge.
just sayin’
And yet, he’s totally failed to provide the context in which his statement wasn’t totally fucked. This is the difference that is obvious to everyone who isn’t you.
Gee, why not repudiate the statement in no uncertain terms, and shut the fuck on the issue? Smart people know what to do when they make a mistake. The arrogance of liberturds means they can’t make mistakes. It is always the fault of other people.
I must say I especially like the part in the end where he says “how much longer this willbe allowed to go on.
Looks like they don’t want to Freeze Peach anymore…
Bingo. The overarching thought expressed was that men are leaders and women aren’t. And the fact that it is all in terms of men wanting it more and glossing over the possibility that men are simply given the opportunity more . The implication that women just aren’t intellectually capable of skepticism is, in fact, mitigated by the context that Shermer provides. The sexism itself, however, isn’t. So it is rather telling that Shermer focuses his piece entirely on the premise that Ophelia is accusing him of calling women stupid, where he is technically right, but conveniently ignores that this isn’t her sole accusation.
Ophelia, with my emphasis:
What was Michael Shermer saying about context again?
@Chigau
“michaeld seems to have the same initials as Madame Defarge.
just sayin’”
Whimpers, is that the free thought bullying I’ve heard so much about :o3 (jokeing :P)
I don’t think the premise is that feminists have no sense of humour. I think the premise is that men are never ever feminists, and here’s “proof”.
What a terribly sad sack that guy is (has? Ack. I made myself sick.)
Skepticism: A Short Play
Michael Shermer: “Women just don’t want to be leaders of the skeptic movement, I guess!”
Ophelia Benson: “Seems Shermer is buying into the standard schlock about women being too unintelligent to be skeptics and too passive to be leaders!”
Micheal Shermer: “Aha! I didn’t say women were stupid! I’m right, will pretend you didn’t have a second complaint, and therefore I win skepticism! Also, I only said my previous comment for, like, 10 seconds on some TV show, so like, what’s the big deal? It’s a witch hunt, all up in here!”
Improbable Joe @8: Someone on Twitter from Team Misogyny tried to prove I’m a hypocrite about social justice because “Canuck is a slur”. I told them that I look forward to their eventual protest of the Vancouver Slurs hockey team.
So many palms and only one face.
Louis
Took the words right out of my mouth. I mean, I already had no respect for that bigot Paden, but this is just . . . . embarrassing. Even for someone as worthless as Paden.
@ Jason: I never got the newsletter about Canuck being a slur either.
For those playing at home, Canuck is not just the name of a hockey team (clearly sports teams can and do have problematic names); Johnny Canuck was originally analogous to Uncle Sam or John Bull. He’s started out all stereotypical lumberjack, I admit, but he went on to be a war hero and super hero, kinda like Captain America.
The Vancouver Canucks are a slur against hockey in some parts of the country.
Admittedly I don’t exactly know why, as I’m an outsider to the subtle rules of hockey fandom. I understand that I’m supposed to hate the Calgary Flames no matter what, due I suspect, to hushed up crimes committed by Lanny McDonald’s redoubtable moustache.
and I’m supposed to hate the Toronto Maple Leafs. Which really makes no sense, since this area is basically Canada anyway.
Anthony K
’nuff said
I love how this has become a thread about what part of Canada Canadians are supposed to hate.
Carry on!
Q: What part of Canada are Canadians supposed to hate?
A: Toronto.
I second Toronto! :P
I love the whole country.
Why must we hate ourselves so much?
*tears*
(is Torontonian)
How much is wrong with this sentence?
1. Shermer’s ORIGINAL comment was not meant to be off-hand OR a joke, unlike PZ’s. Shermer’s was an attempt (albeit a poor one) to answer the host’s question about gender bias.
2. I’ve watched both videos that were under discussion in this issue… and there is no issue of context for Shermer’s comment that was not addressed in the critique of the comment itself. OTOH, there is a TON of context missing for a lot of PZ’s comments, of which many were based on previous insider conversations and history.
3. PZ’s comments were not even SEEMINGLY sexist, not even without the context!
whiff 3 times, you’re out.
@ Thomathy
Awww, would it help if I limited it to queen’s park? ;p (I’m an Ottawan)
I just can’t stand following the crowd, on principle…
So I’m gonna hate Moose Jaw.
… seriously, what kind of stupid name is that, anyway? ‘Moose Jaw’? What, was ‘Deer Asshole’ taken?
(/Oh. Okay. I guess that, specifically, may have been passed on because ‘Deer Asshole’ sounds suspiciously like a not very polite salutation for a written letter… Still… The principle’s the same.)
… “Come to think of it, I pretty much hate every gosh darn province and territory in our country!”
(/… umm, fair warning/apology re #82, the lyric and video do kinda come with some gratuitous fat-shaming. Apologies. Had kinda forgotten that detail of the lyric, and the vid’s apparently a homebrew.)
My ears are burning. I should probably tie up the earflaps on my toque.
A slur? Who says so? Them’s fighting words; well, at least log burling words. Get your corks on, whoever said that.
:{]
I have no problem with PZ’s presentation. However, I can envision several men who would be getting excoriated in here right now for the exact same material.
Nerd? What do you think, sugar-plum?
Well done AJ Milne.
I was just about to do that.
Tell me – did the idiot leave out the “simulation” of the interaction(s) between male and female preying mantises? I bet he would have, if (a) it was there and (b) he was stupid enough not to recognize it…
How delicious!!! She gets both laid and a meal. Hummmm – sounds like the most recent date I had…
Saskatoon, eh?
Kinda reminds me of that episode of The Simpsons where Homer goes on that current affairs show to clear his name after being falsely accused of sexual harrasment and they cut together the footage to try and make him look guilty.
Oh, except this is a) less professional, b) more intellectually dishonest, and c) not funny.
Really? Why? What would be the substance of the criticism behind the excoriation?
Honest question.
Cross-posted from Comradde PhysioProffe:
I propose a sort of Golden Turkey award for the Entertainingly-Worst anti-FtB videos of the year. The Golden Douchenozzle, say?
If I were on the nominating committee I’d for sure nominate this one. Also the one where Wooly Bumblebee was explaining why Ophelia Benson is a cunt, not a bitch.
Everywhere in Canada is wonderful and this is why (YouTube vid).
When I was a kid, one of my friends was from Medicine Hat.
To my inner 9-year-old, it’s the best place name ever.
Re: Canada.
There’s something about MRAs and conservatives, I’ve noticed, where they seem unable to recognize clear jokes, unless said jokes are at the expense of their usual targets. PZ makes a joke about belly dancing = PZ IS A MISOGYNIST HAHAHA GOTCHA YOU HYPOCRITE!!!!11! Some asshat says he wants to kick Greta Christina in the c***, or some other asshat says he’s going to assault Rebecca Watson in an elevator = HUR HURR WHAT YOU GUYS CAN’T TAKE A JOKE HURR?!
Thank God someone’s onto you and Rebecca. But why do you keep cutting in and out of the middle of scenes in the video? What are you hiding?
Every time one of these imbecilic videos comes out my estimation of PZ skyrockets. Soon I might have to revisit the posts where we’ve disagreed to see if he might have had a point!
Commenter calling themself “totalretard” at 95,
please change your nym.
Oh, no, I’ve been exposed!–PZ MYERS
Yes you have. Hypocrisy and arrogance exposed–case closed.*
Had the video been of someone else,.. oh say, for grins and giggles,… Michael Shermer, he would have been on him or (insert your favorite atheist whipping post here) like flies on feces.
*Gotta give him credit though, for having the guts to showcase the video evidence of it. Suspected it all along, now verified for my edification.
@ 98
Oh for Pete’s sake! Context matters. Someone’s history matters. Yes, if this video had been of someone else–say Dawkins–I would be a bit more inclined to believe that he was making actual sexist statements (although with the hack job of vid-splicing and no context, probably not without further proof) because of HIS PAST SEXIST STATEMENTS. But the fact that it comes from a well-known GotchaFeminists! group, and is about someone with a long history of activism in anti-sexism makes me waaaaaay more skeptical of the claims of the video (unevidenced and Frankensteined together as it already is.)
That’s called “using one’s judgement.”
Also LOL that you think this took “guts” on Paden’s part. Oooooookay.
Hey, neuralobserver: Whatever happened to NUANCE?
On the plus side, at least now we’re all apparently agreed that sexism and being sexist are Bad Things.
Right, Reap Paden?
I found this pretty strange myself. I’ve only spoken to Reap a few times. He asked me on his pod cast a few months back and accepted. I run a blog that gets no where near the hits Pharyngula, and I never been asked on anyone’s pod cast before. We didn’t agree on everything but it was enjoyable and he seemed nice enough.
I’ve just never seen P.Z. be half as extreme as some Reap (and a few others) seem to think he is.
This video made me uncomfortable on so many levels. PZ’s (thus far unacknowledged) casual sexism, and the terrible editing… Yikes. I really can’t believe there are people defending his horrible “jokes” because it’s PZ and we know he really doesn’t mean it! It doesn’t mean the jokes aren’t demeaning (in my opinion at least).