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Dec 05 2012

[Thunderdome]

This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.

Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread

682 comments

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  1. 1
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    So how long before the next troll?

  2. 2
    dougthebox

    The latest news reports (e.g. the presidential election results, republican compromises on the budget, etc.) suggest that some semblance of reason is creeping back into American politics.
    Hopefully this will spread to Canada, where we have perhaps the most frighteningly right wing government we have ever had.

    Our current Prime Minister is a right wing ideologue from Alberta (aka Canada’s Texas), who is a devoted acolyte of the Bush/Cheney school of government.

    Currently our government is trying to use back-door measures to re-open the abortion debate, recently tried (unsuccessfully) to shut down a (drug) harm-reduction program in Vancouver, and one of our cabinet ministers, when asked about evolution, replied that he did not want to get into a religious discussion.

    I never thought I would consider moving to the United States just to get away from all the right-wing crazy.

  3. 3
    Inaji

    I never thought I would consider moving to the United States just to get away from all the right-wing crazy.

    If you’re looking to get away from right wing craziness, you don’t want to be headed here (U.S.) – set your sights on NZ or Oz. Or anywhere that isn’t the states.

  4. 4
    Inaji

    Tony:

    So how long before the next troll?

    What, Ragarth isn’t enough for ya?

  5. 5
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Caine @3:
    Seconded!

    @4:
    Meh. I see him more as a self absorbed twit more than a troll. YMMV.

  6. 6
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Tony

    [re: joe4060] In the future, you cannot use your holy book to prove your god exists.

    Snakker ee Norsk?

    Henrik Ibsen (1884):

    Tar De livsløgnen fra et gennemsnitsmenneske, så tar De lykken fra ham med det samme.

    Translation:

    If you take the life lie from an average man, you take away his happiness as well.

  7. 7
    Kagato

    Hey PZ, could we get artist credits or source links for the thumbnails?

  8. 8
    PZ Myers

    That one came from here.

  9. 9
    LykeX

    …republican compromises on the budget…

    So, have they compromised? I haven’t really been following that, but what I heard most recently, the Republican idea of compromise was “we get everything we want and you get to suck it up.”

  10. 10
    John Morales

    theophontes, you made me think of Itchycoo Park .

  11. 11
    doubtthat

    No, Republicans aren’t compromising, they’re not even close. They’re opening proposal was worse (more cuts to SS and Medicare, MAGIC savings through the closing of undisclosed loopholes) than the automatic shitstorm that hits if we go over the cliff.

    They are dumb fucking assholes that are simultaneously arguing that the deficit is the biggest problem in the world, but we can’t raise taxes because of growth. We need to contract, but we can’t contract!!

    Fucking stupid shit assholes. And the Dems are only slightly better. Why anyone thinks doing the same thing England just did will lead to different results is an idiot.

    We are in a liquidity trap. Aggregate demand has crashed. There’s a massive surplus on the supply side (record corporate profits as a % of GDP) WE NEED TO BE SPENDING MORE NOT LESS.

  12. 12
    doubtthat

    their

  13. 13
    doubtthat

    Maybe the dome isn’t the place for me. There’s too much freedom. I haven’t been that incoherent in a while.

  14. 14
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ doubtthat

    There’s too much freedom.

    {enter dancing tardigrades dressed in bondage gear}

    *CRACK*

    In your cage doubtthat!!!

    *CRACK*

    Increase output!!!!

  15. 15
    Inaji

    Theophontes:

    {enter dancing tardigrades dressed in bondage gear}

    I can send in the rats…

  16. 16
    chigau (違う)

    dougthebox #2
    The problem with the current Prime Minister of Canada is NOT that he is from Alberta.
    It is that he is an Evangelical Christian.

  17. 17
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ John Morales

    Be carefull, you may encourage an Ibsen mashup…

    {the dancing tardigrades shed their whips, paddles and leathers and don once more their robes, lining up again, stage left as The Choir ™ }

    {All in Unison}

    At leve er — krig med trolde
    i hjertets og hjernens hvælv.

    {a *click-clack* sound is heard as someone cracks open a frosty.}

    Om jeg hamrer eller hamres,
    ligefuldt så skal der jamres!

    {sound of match being struck, a huge puff of smoke envelopes the choir}

    Sannhet på slangens hode skal tråkke…

    {*fart*}

    Jeg har en sånn umåtelig lyst til å si: død og pine.

    {choir breaks up as the tambourines are distributed, the dancing tardigrades start a wild cavort. theophontes casts down baton and leaves in a huff}

    [lyrics:

    All life is - fighting with trolls
    both in hearts and minds

    Whether I pound (with hammer) or am being pounded,
    all the same there will be moaning!

    Truth will tread upon Mrs Snake's head...
    *fart*
    I've the most extraordinary longing to say 'Bloody Hell'!

    ]

  18. 18
    chigau (違う)

    theophontes
    You have way too much time on your hands tentacles appendages.

  19. 19
    sparks

    Dave Brubeck passed away this morning (12/5).

    Shit.

    Thanks for the great jazz Mr. Brubeck. You will be missed.

  20. 20
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Caine

    I can send in the rats…

    Yes!!!

    (Not a moment too soon. Pissed-off punters have gathered pitchforks and firebrands and are persuing theophontes down the cobbled back alleys of The Thunderdome…)

  21. 21
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau

    I have minions minioning as I type. I look as if I am very busy.

    @ sparks

    Dave Brubeck

    *gives clenched tentacle salute*

  22. 22
    chigau (違う)

    ohohoh
    sparks #19

    Dave Brubeck passed away this morning

    sadsadsad

  23. 23
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau/sparks

    His son, Darius, was at my varsity when I studied in Durban (South Africa). The whole family are brilliant musicians.

  24. 24
    John Morales

    theophontes, you should avoid minionettes from the planet Minion.

  25. 25
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ John Morales

    {clicks linky}

    That sounds like the fun park we built on the outskirts of Thunderdome. (Chthon consists of a maze of office cubicles. There .DWG and .PNG files are exchanged for food.)

  26. 26
    SQB

    I can send in the rats…But where are the clowns?

  27. 27
    SQB

    Ow, crap.

  28. 28
    Nick Gotts

    sparks@19,

    And he was only 91 – a mere stripling. The last couple of days have seen the deaths of Elisabeth Murdoch, 103 (mother of the more famous Rupert); Oscar Neimeyer, 104 (architect, and designer of Brasilia); and Besse Cooper, 116 (world’s oldest known living person before her death: Dina Manfredini, 115, succeeds to the title).

    What’s killing all these people off at once, when they’ve stayed alive so long? Sinister! ;-)

  29. 29
    John Morales

    Nick,

    What’s killing all these people off at once, when they’ve stayed alive so long? Sinister! ;-)

    Well, it certainly ain’t Dexter.

  30. 30
    carlie

    I see what you did there.

  31. 31
    F [is for failure to emerge]

    Nick Gotts

    What’s killing all these people off at once, when they’ve stayed alive so long?

    Holy shit, I know people who operate with that mechanism installed. It was fine all this time, why would it break/leak/fail now? /headpalm

  32. 32
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ John Morales

    Itchycoo Park

    (Tar De narkotika fra et gennemsnitsmenneske, så tar De lykken fra ham med det samme.)

  33. 33
    ajb47

    Nick Gotts @28

    It’s Obamacare’s Death Panels kicking in.

  34. 34
    vaiyt

    Oscar Niemeyer, 104

    All the cool old guys from when I was a kid are passing away. ):

  35. 35
    joachim

    Wait until ObamaCare takes full effect.

    With the money taken away from Medicare, and the limitations on “extraordinary” treatments, all the old people will really need is a nice funeral plan

  36. 36
    joachim

    Hey, this is funny…

    ATHEIST spells EATSHIT

  37. 37
    LykeX

    Yeah, well… only if you switch the letters around.

    Bet you feel foolish now, huh?

  38. 38
    anteprepro

    With the money taken away from Medicare , and the limitations on “extraordinary” treatments , all the old people will really need is a nice funeral plan

    Looks like we’ve got a real Mitthead over here.

  39. 39
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ joachim

    I’m this hot jackal.

    What does that spell ?

    or this: Rakish if smooth ejaculator. ?

    Examples may be multiplied with little effort.

  40. 40
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Troll gets 0.5/5 for content (because of decent spelling and grammar), 0/5 for effort.

  41. 41
    Menyambal

    Marcus Aurelius, who you may remember as the old guy in the movie _Gladiator_, wrote:

    “Nothing has such power to broaden the mind as the ability to investigate systematically and truly all that comes under thy observation in life.”

  42. 42
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ anteprepro #38

    I wonder where the whole republican attitude comes from. Hell, the ‘Merkin world view in general. Then I was reading about education in Finland (founded 95 years ago today):

    [Education is] provided free from preschool through university. Using tax revenues to finance education ensures high quality and equal opportunity for all. Instead of competition and comparison, comprehensive school focuses on support and guidance for students as individuals.

    That bit, growing up in an environment of constant “competition and comparison” may well point to something. If that becomes internalised, one will get to a point where one cannot even see the problems anymore.

    Society might come apart at the seems, but the individuals continue to see everything through the lense of “each to their own” rather than looking out for society as a whole. The blind spot is grown and re-entrentched with every passing generation. One template, one measure to manufacture individualists (such as USA) as opposed to a system of developing each individual to their own personal excellence – in order to build a winning society for all (Finland).

  43. 43
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Menyambal

    A life-attitude stolen from the Greeks.

  44. 44
    ajb47

    I’d like to assure everyone I was attempting humor with my Death Panels comment. I didn’t know someone with a lack of reading comprehension would come in at the same time and post a similar comment and actually be serious about it.

  45. 45
    myeck waters

    Not to worry, ajb47. Idiots like joachim are a dime a dozen around here. If you’d snarked about elevatorgate it would’ve activated someone else.

  46. 46
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ SGBM

    Mrs Snake & S.O.

    @ All

    Our Ebil Oberlawd ™ has been around for millenia! ( Linky )

  47. 47
    billygutter01

    Dave Brubeck passed away this morning (12/5).

    Ah, that sucks. I guess I know what I’ll be listening to tonight. *sigh*

    When I read “(12/5)” my brain tried to understand that as a time signature instead of a date.

    Whoa. Not sure if that’s indicative of too much coffee or not enough.

  48. 48
    nms

    The problem with the current Prime Minister of Canada is NOT that he is from Alberta.
    It is that he is an Evangelical Christian.

    I’d say the problem our current PM is that his party is allowed to do whatever it wants even though fewer than a quarter of Canadians voted for it.

    I guess that’s not really a problem with him specifically, though.

  49. 49
    consciousness razor

    When I read “(12/5)” my brain tried to understand that as a time signature instead of a date.

    Bad move for your brain.

    It would be playable as 12/8, with the new beats 8:5 to the original. (But that’s a hard fucking polyrhythm…. This is 5:4, but you have to divide the quarters to get 5:8.)

    Or if I did the math right, you could do it as 9/4 plus an extra 60% of a quarter note. If that helps.* We could count that as close enough for swing.

    *It doesn’t help.

    Whoa. Not sure if that’s indicative of too much coffee or not enough.

    Not enough. It is in the nature of coffee that you can never have enough.

  50. 50
    Menyambal

    Sir Thomas Massey-Massey stands up in the English Parliament and says, “England is not a Catholic country. We should not refer to the holy day of Christ’s birth as ‘Christ-mass’, as the Catholics do. Rather, we should call it ‘Christ-tide’, in the Protestant, and good old English, tradition.”

    Somebody else stands up and says, “Well, then, Sir Thomas Massey-Massey, should we start calling you Sir Thotide Tidey-Tidey?”

  51. 51
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    When I read “(12/5)” my brain tried to understand that as a time signature instead of a date.

    It’s an Americanism. In the rest of the world it’s 5/12. Ba-da-da-ba-da [etc.]. Much simpler. ;-)

  52. 52
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    And now I’m wondering what a fifth note would look like. A filled-in ball with a staff leading to a liquor bottle?

  53. 53
    anthonyrosa

    Okay, random question for the thunderdome:

    You know the statement about how, when people make jokes or talk about things like their misogyny or rape, the people who are ACTUALLY going to go out and do it interpret those as actual support for what they’re doing? They assume they’re allies?

    Well, I was trying to find some data to back this up, whether statements by people or some sort of survey, or anything like that. It would be great to have for if I ever got into an argument with a reasonable person who just hadn’t heard it before, and is resistant in the way a reasonable person can be upon learning something new and uncomfortable. In any case, I went back and read the original -and very enlightening- piece about this as well, and… yeah. My google-fu is failing me. Does anyone have an idea of where I should look for that kind of data?

  54. 54
    John Morales

    Americans don’t just use archaic measures, they also are perverse at writing dates.

    Given that a year is divided into months and months are divided into days, it makes sense to write dd/mm/yy (or yy/mm/dd) for a date, but it’s counter-intuitive to write mm/dd/yy.

    (It’s much like writing mm/ss/hh rather than hh/mm/ss for time, given that an hour is divided into minutes and minutes are divided into seconds)

  55. 55
    chigau (違う)

    anthonyrosa #53
    Do you want to rephrase the “question”?
    —-
    John Morales
    re: date format
    I have popped more than a few brain blood vessels trying to convince people that this is important.

  56. 56
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    John Morales & chigau,

    Agreed.

  57. 57
    Gen, Uppity Ingrate and Ilk

    John Morales, 54 – That’s totally one of my favourite pet peeves. I can never be sure wtf date is meant unless the number mentioned is >12.

    We hates it, preshussssss!

  58. 58
    Gen, Uppity Ingrate and Ilk

    Anthonyrosa

    Try the Social Justice Link Roundup, handily linked in the sidebar. Check under the heading “Rape jokes and other sexist humour” to start with.

    Or start with this, taken from there:
    * The Enjoyment of Sexist Humor, Rape Attitudes, and Relationship Aggression in College Students
    * Effects of exposure to sexist humor on perceptions of normative tolerance of sexism
    * More Than “Just a Joke”: The Prejudice-Releasing Function of Sexist Humor

  59. 59
    strange gods before me ॐ

    date +%s

  60. 60
    John Morales

    ॐ, well before digital computers, astronomers used the ‘Julian date’ to simplify date arithmetic.

  61. 61
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Being born after 1970, I have a limited supply of fucks.

  62. 62
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Seriously though, I hate the hell out of Google because they still* use Julian dates for archive searches.

    *still isn’t even the right word; they never should have started in the first place

  63. 63
    anthonyrosa

    To Gen, Uppity Ingrate:

    Hey, thanks for the links! That was the sort of thing I was looking for, I was just having a brain-fart and for some reason just could not come up with a way to phrase it to make my Google search actually find what I wanted.

    I really appreciate the help, that stuff helps tremendously.

  64. 64
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    StevoR

    As for Thunderdome, I hated the idea of that thread but tried it and found it was just as bad as I feared in terms of unrestrained, offensive gang-up bullying of me. Why would I want to go there? Why should I have to? That said, I am wondering about it. Maybe. Maybe not.

    You are a self-centered, hateful little fuck. Do you think everything revolves around you and we should all run around on any given thread to cater to your wish to discuss how evil (EVIL, I tell you) those Muslims are? No need to answer that, you’ve already said so right here in the part I quoted, as well as multiple times before.

  65. 65
    Rutee Katreya

    Why calling for genocide and constant racism is okay, but being a ‘boring troll’ isn’t, is still lost on me.

  66. 66
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Rutee Katreya

    It’s not ok. I’m not sure why we’re all going along with the “StevoR might be educated if we only try hard enough” hypothesis.

    I was mostly for restricting StevoR to Thunderdome, but it would probably be best if he’s banned altogether.

  67. 67
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    Quite a few nasty and deluded bullies here seem to be addressing some strawperson of their own making but wrongly addressed by my username demonising, othering and bullying me as well as failing to actually read and comprehend the nuances in what I’m actually saying.

    Well, I AM NOT THIS STRAWPERSON you have falsely fabricated out of your hate on for me.

    This strawperson bears absolutely no resemblance to the real live individual person that I really am.

    To be clear read this – and reread, re-re-read and repeat aloud 100 times if that’s what it takes to sink in for you :

    I, StevoR, do NOT advocate or support racism.

    I, StevoR, do NOT advocate or support genocide.

    I, StevoR, accepts that Muslims are human beings.

    I, StevoR, object to the way the Islamic religious ideology brainwashes and fucks up Muslims and turns them into Homicide-suicide bombing terrorist fanatics. (Ok that’s just some – too many – but not *all* Muslims granted.)

    I, StevoR am just saying that we need to fight terrorists just as much as we need to fight extremist republicans and MRAs. Plus that, like every nation on the planet, Israel has the right to vigorously, militarily defend itself and protect its civilians from genocidal bigots such as Hamas, Al Quaida and Hezbollah.

    What about any of this is supposedly racist exactly?

    Want to claim I’m a racist?

    Then prove it.

    Show us all one comment from me – just one – where I specifically claim that people should be judged based on their skin colour NOT their actions or behaviour or ideas.

    I think you will find you simply cannot do this.

    Note that Muslims are NOT a race nor do all Muslims share a common skin colour nor are most “brown-skinned people” Muslim. In fact, most brown skinned people (for the precious little that it matters) are actually Hindu (Indians) or Catholic (South American) in their belief systems.

    Now I freely admit I’m not perfect and have gotten carried away at times, often posting drunk and emotional and overtired. I’ll admit I’m a flawed human in some respects who has been known to get things wrong from time to time. I’ve said as much before and apologised for that when appropriate.

    If you can find one instance – just one – where I specifically stated that people should be damned on the basis of the colour of their skins – then I’ll apologise and take whatever reasonable penalty you demand of me.

    In return I expect that everyone who has lied about me, abusing and insulting me with ridiculous offensive and totally inapplicable labels such as “racist” will admit that they got me wrong and retract their words, never repeating them and apologises to me as well if I prove them wrong by them being unable to meet this challenge.

    So, golden rule, folks; a lot of you have been badly wrong and wa-aay Over The Top in some of your fallacious, hurtful and totally wrong character assessments about me – now is your chance to rethink, reconsider and admit that.

  68. 68
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @64. Beatrice :

    StevoR :

    “As for Thunderdome, I hated the idea of that thread but tried it and found it was just as bad as I feared in terms of unrestrained, offensive gang-up bullying of me. Why would I want to go there? Why should I have to? That said, I am wondering about it. Maybe. Maybe not.

    You are a self-centered, hateful little fuck.

    Wrong – and I’ll note you failed to answer the questions I’ve put to you there.

    Do you think everything revolves around you and we should all run around on any given thread to cater to your wish to discuss how evil (EVIL, I tell you) those Muslims are?

    No.

    But when people call me false, offensive names and attempt to bully me then I’m going to call them out on it and why the fuck shouldn’t I?

    No need to answer that, you’ve already said so right here in the part I quoted, as well as multiple times before.

    Gee you sure do have trouble with reading comprehension don’t you?

    I think the thunderdome idea stinks. I think it encourages and empowers bullies and ganging up on those who disagree.

    Mostly actually I agree with most of what people say here witha few exceptions. Maybe 80 % to 20 %.

    I happen to disagree with many of you in concluding that this blog is a bit too soft on Islam & bit too hard on Israel. For that I get called, among a whole lot of other things a “nazi.” Well, go figure what the likely results of that sort of stupidity on some commenters part is.

  69. 69
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I, StevoR, do NOT advocate or support racism.

    I, StevoR, do NOT advocate or support genocide.

    I, StevoR, accepts that Muslims are human beings.

    LIAR AND BULLSHITTER. YOUR OWN WORDS ADVOCATING KILLING SAY OTHERWISE.

    QUIT LYING TO YOURSELF. ADMIT YOUR BIGOTRY. THEN, AND ONLY THEN, YOU CAN QUIT LYING TO US.

  70. 70
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    For that I get called, among a whole lot of other things a “nazi.”

    They, like you, advocated a “final solution”.

  71. 71
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ 70. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls :

    The nazis tried to exterminate the Jewish people – just like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the like do.

    Also no, I didn’t advocate a final solution – I advocated destroying a terrorist base.

  72. 72
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    That’s destroying a terrorist base during wartime when it was actively firing rockets at innocent families when its side has launched the war needlessly and plans on committing genocide.

    I would NOT bomb Gaza now when it is NOT doing that and would NOT have bombed the Fatah-run Palestinian cities that were NOT firing rockets at the time.

    Having made that important clarification, I’m turning the computer off now, walking the dog and will return here tomorrow my time. Or maybe the next day.

  73. 73
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I’m so sorry I failed to answer your question in a manner that would satisfy you.

    I give this >.< much of a fuck.

    Should I remind you of those comments about how you could most effectively kill everyone in Gaza? Yeah, I know, it's not evidence of your bigotry because you were just joking. Har har.

    Shithead, you have already been given far more attention than you deserve. You have given enough evidence of your bigotry and it has been repeated to you enough times (just look at previous incarnation of Thunderdome).

  74. 74
    Amphiox

    Telling how StevoR calls the entirety of Gaza a terrorist base.

    And it has the nerve to claim that it is not bigoted.

    Telling how StevoR continues to IGNORE the fact that there is more than one way of defending oneself and more than one way of destroying terrorist bases. Some of those ways involve dropping bombs on innocent people and some of those ways do not, and yet StevoR continues to advocate and support the former.

    And it has the nerve to claim that it is not a murderous bigot.

    Telling how StevoR continues to use to standard racist claim that it cannot be directly quoted saying anything racist while ignoring the clear and obvious implication of racism and racist code terms in virtually everything it says on this subject.

    And it has the nerve to claim that it is not a racist.

    Does StevoR not remember the time I did a sentence by sentence comparison of its odious postings on one thread with the words of one Osama bin Laden’s speeches and found no significant differences in content or tone?

    Utterly pathetic.

  75. 75
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Having made that important clarification, I’m turning the computer off now, walking the dog and will return here tomorrow my time. Or maybe the next day.

    I’m sure everyone will be waiting with bells on.

  76. 76
    Amphiox

    I would NOT bomb Gaza now when it is NOT doing that

    And yet of course that is EXACTLY what Israel did in this case and what StevoR is so eager to defend. Or has StevoR forgotten (or deliberately chosen NOT to remember) that the current flare-up was STARTED by Israel doing a targeting assassination of a Hamas Leader, at a time when rocket attacks were NOT being launched from Gaza to any significant degree and that ALL the subsequent rocket attacks on Israel by Hamas were in retaliation to this provocation?

    Or that most independent analysts believe the Israeli’s intended, provoked and orchestrated the whole thing, as a means of 1) testing their own battle-readiness and the effectiveness of their previously untested missile defence system in preparation for potential hostilities with Iran, 2) testing the international reaction and response to the possibility of a first strike against Iran’s nuclear facilities, 3) demonstrating their own offensive capabilities to the Iranians and others in the surrounding Islamic countries who might get involved in the event of hostilities with Iran as a kind of pre-emptive warning, and 4) degrading Hamas’ existing weapons capabilities in the event of Hamas’ likely support of Iran in the event of Israeli-Iranian hostilities so that the burden of having to face two fronts of hostilities is reduced?

    StevoR, pathetic liar, caught LYING once again.

  77. 77
    Amphiox

    Say what you will about Israel’s intentions in this most recent flare-up of hostilities (and arguments can indeed be made that their actions were not unreasonable given their circumstances with respect to Iran) but do NOT think that Israel was not the initial aggressor in this exchange.

  78. 78
    Amphiox

    The nazis tried to exterminate the Jewish people – just like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the like do.

    Another rather telling Godwin by pathetic liar StevoR.

    Point of fact, Hamas, Islamic jihad, and any number of other radical Islamic groups have NOT, and NEVER HAVE, tried to exterminate the Jewish people. They’ve talked about it, they haven’t ever done it or even begun to try. They’ve made war against Israel, and maybe they might have gone on to attempt genocide if they had won, but they didn’t win, so we don’t know if that rhetoric was truly serious (note that during WWII there were lots of voices in the US advocating for the extermination of the Japanese, but after winning the war, the US didn’t do that, didn’t even think about it).

    All they’ve done on the genocide front is talk. Which puts them in exactly the same category as StevoR himself.

  79. 79
    chigau (違う)

    Why does the country of Israel exist?

  80. 80
    Amphiox

    I, StevoR am just saying that we need to fight terrorists just as much as we need to fight extremist republicans and MRAs.

    When you see someone advocate or support dropping missiles into neighborhoods where known extremist republicans live, or planning the targeted assassinations of Thunderfoot and other MRAs, then we can take this pathetic statement seriously.

  81. 81
    Amphiox

    Note that Muslims are NOT a race nor do all Muslims share a common skin colour nor are most “brown-skinned people” Muslim.

    Ah yes. The oldest racist-apologetics trick in the book. The arbitrary redefinition of the term “racist” as self-servingly narrow as necessary to not technically qualify as one, oneself.

    If you can find one instance – just one – where I specifically stated that people should be damned on the basis of the colour of their skins

    And the second oldest racist-apologetics trick in the book. To pretend that all the deliberate racist code-words previously used were in fact meant literally.

    As well as the third oldest racist-apologetics trick in the book. The dishonest misrepresentation of the actual accusation (NO ONE actually ever criticized StevoR for “stating that people should be damned on the basis of the colour of their skins”) in order to deflect and distract from the real accusation.

    And StevoR has the NERVE to pretend it isn’t a racist.

    Utterly pitiful.

  82. 82
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    SteveoR:

    Do you still advocate a preemptive war with Iran?

  83. 83
    anteprepro

    [Warning: To lazy to blockquote]

    For those who might think that StevoR might not actually be racist, behold: An Introduction to Pharyngula’s StevoR

    Wanna See Something thread:

    “In these circumstances when we’re fighting a war it is NOT a crime to kill the enemy to jail and threaten them and their supporters with severe consequences for their waging war aimed at destroying us.

    Because, y’know, war.”

    [On Iran] “What if *they* are the one’s starting a war with us?

    It may not be our choice. Affordable or not, desirable or not, it might well be a case of them attacking us.

    Would you like and let that happen? Would you have the West surrender to Jihadist or Iranian theocratic Sharia rule?

    Dammit, I didn’t want to argue this here but some of you are just so fucking blind to reality and think we live in some kind of wonderful ideal world that, sorry, we just don’t live in.

    Research Al Quaida, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the like. How would deal with them? Be realistic. They don’t *want* peace – and nor does Iran. They and Iran want us all gone. Dead or converted. They won’t settle for less. They aren’t prepared to give up violence. How do you deal with that reality.”

    Let us not get confused thread:

    “@ 82. Nick Gotts (formerly KG):

    I forget, do calls for genocide count as death threats?

    No, death threats are targeted at individuals not groups.

    It isn’t issuing a death threat for example to say that Al Quaida should be destroyed and prevented from ever threatening people again. Death threats also don’t usually apply when aimed at enemy forces during wartime.

    Plus I didn’t call for genocide I called for self-defence and prevention of a genocide against well, the whole modern world really. especially the Western world and Israel. You, Nick Gotts are either badly confused and mistaken about what I actually said because of your own reading comprehension failure or are outright lying about me. Either is your fault not mine.

    I have also repeatedly stated here that I oppose genocide and clarified a few comments I made when drunk and over-tired.”

    “The West isn’t the side of this latest global war calling for genocide or demanding that everyone convert to their faith and accept what they demand.
    …The Islamist Jihadists OTOH are not happy to let the rest of the globe alone. They want the whole planet to be ruled by a theocractic Caliph who imposes brutal Sharia law upon all of us. That this sick fantasy is impossible and futile and never going to happen in reality doesn’t, alas, prevent them from trying to make it happen anyhow because, well, their religion.”

    “When Jihadists fighting us hide behind their own families and civilians as human shields well that’s the choice and consequence. Do we let them kill our children because we care more for theirs instead? It is a hard and horrible thing and Western militaries, incl. Israels, takes enormous care to avoid causing excessive collateral damage where-ever they can – as opposed to the Jihadists who always try to maximise collateral damage and kill innocents and propagandise any unintended casualties that do result.”

    “Palestine isn’t a nation. It is an political idea and old provincial name going back to a colonial period when hardly anybody lived there -and a whole separate issue again.”

    “I’m neither racist nor a warmonger.

    Islam is an ideology – a religion – NOT a race.

    Couldn’t give a shit about skin colour personally and “race” is biologically meaningless bullshit.

    As for war mongering well, I’m not calling for any wars. Wish they weren’t happening.

    But y’know, we are kinda at war in a few places now whether I or you want to accept that reality or not.

    What do you suggest we do when confronted with Jihadist violence and Jihadist grups such as Al Quaeda, Hamas & the Taliban Surrender? Convert? Die? Or fight?

    Take your pick.

    Got another option? Go ahead, explain it – but will the Jihadists be so generous?”

    “@333. Brownian

    Oh, it’s not that bad for all immigrants. The white ones seem to have had a grand ol’ time.

    You anti-white people are you?…

    Actually from what I understand of history the Australian Aboriginals mostly died from diseases they had no immunity too like most indigneous groups in North and South America.

    Now okay some white folks did some bad things -whilst many others approached things in a human and kind way buy the understanding of the time which is quite different to how we view things in this era.”

    “Well, that’s *your* (erroneous) opinion and I think that’s very, very clearly ridiculously wrong.

    Because a “phobia” is defined as an irrational fear.

    When Islamist groups such as Al Quaeda, Hamas, Jemaah Islamiyya, etc .. are seriously trying to kill and convert the rest if the world being afraid or concerned about and opposed to them is entirely rational, logical and reasonable.

    How much research have you done on terrorism and especially the Jihadists and what they want to do to and impose on everyone else?

    I can assure you I treat everybody equally and fairly and compassionately in Real Life therefore your offensive accusation of bigotry is also totally wrong.”

    Jesus Freakin’ Christ Obama thread:

    “The United States didn’t start this fight. The Jihadists did. This war is what they want, want they got and on *their* fucken heads be it. “It” being whatever explosive fucking ordinance it takes to wipe those fuckers out and stop them killing us and others.

    Do you want the USA to win or not?

    Gotta be ruthless because, sure as fuck, the enemy are. Totally.

    [...]

    We gotta take some pretty horrible steps such as this one – not because we want to but because the alternative is worse.

    Because our values, our way of life is better and deserves to survive and the consequences for so many other human lives outweight the loss of the few Afghanistani innocents caught upas collateral damage. I agree this sucks but I think that’s just how it is. Its what they’ve forced us to do.

    Its Islam trying to murder or enslave us all and given those options (&, yes, that durn well is all we’re given! That’s reality, its sucks and wish it wasn’t but it is!), you fight to win or you surrender.

    Surrender means conversion to Islam – the Taliban -Al Quaida variety. Means we impose Sharia law and a global fucking Caliphate upon everybody. Your wife, your daughters, your sons, your country. Forget women having the right to abortion – under Sharia law they couldn’t even drive a car or go outside unaccompanied. Imagine them all and yourself being Islamic, deprived and constricted and suffering so much. Imagine how badly that’d hurt the rest of Humanity and everybody’s future.

    No other options. Sadly.

    I say we fight.

    With everything we have.

    As ruthlessly as we need to which is totally.

    Turn the Jihadists into fucken glass if we have to. Blast Afghanistan out of existence and into a radioactive sump below sea level if that’s what it takes. Their war and their choice not ours.

    Just like a burglar who breaks into your home and threatens to rape your wife or you – you fucken well shoot ‘em dead if you have to!

    And we do have to. It sucks and I wish we didn’t but we do.

    De-islamicise the fucken planet!

    Before they Islamicise it all and committ a far worse genocide. That we all know they intend to do.

    Life or death, us or them. Sucks. But is reality.

    Nuke ‘em.”

    Somebody give that man a geography lesson thread:

    “Correcting the record here :

    I have *never* advocated genocide actually.

    Defending ourselves by taking out the even more ruthless bad guys without (metaphorically – or for that matter literally) pulling punches who wish to comitt genocide against others isn’t the same thing!”

  84. 84
    anteprepro

    I found the second to last one (which is actually multiple posts) by courtesy of Walton in the “Thunderfoot, Check your e-mail” thread.

  85. 85
    consciousness razor

    And now I’m wondering what a fifth note would look like. A filled-in ball with a staff leading to a liquor bottle?

    There is no such thing as a “fifth note;” but if there were, I guess it could look like that. I would probably go with a bottle of vodka.

    Instead, there are quintuplets, which are notated like triplets but with a “5″ instead. They can be basically any duration (relative to the tempo),* because they can be made up of notes of any duration.

    *But not really. With standard notation, you can’t have any based on irrational (or complex) numbers, just ratios of whole numbers. And practically speaking, your tempo will never be something like q = 13π² bpm.

  86. 86
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Beatrice (or anyone who knows and is online now),

    I’m curious. Where does the “As for Thunderdome” quote in #64 come from?

  87. 87
    PZ Myers

    Has anyone else noticed that when a troll stumbles into one of these threads and rapidly jacks up the comment count, when I close it and open a new one with a prominent link, these poor saps often get lost and can’t find the new thread? It’s like flunking a basic IQ test, every time.

  88. 88
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    sgbm,

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/12/03/southern-man/comment-page-1/#comment-506499

    Sorry for not linking the relevant thread in that comment. Will remember next time.

    (I grumbled about others not doing this, I know. Sorry.)

  89. 89
    imkindaokay

    Not enough to make up for his previous wankery, but the amazingatheist appears to have done a somewhat feminist video! (basic as it is) maybe progress is being made!

  90. 90
    nms

    Should I remind you of those comments about how you could most effectively kill everyone in Gaza? Yeah, I know, it’s not evidence of your bigotry because you were just joking. Har har.

    Not just any joking, but “gallows humour“:

    Or a couple of Daisy Cutter bombs maybe? Quick, effective and if most of the Gazans don’t know what’s hit them, arguably even the most relatively humane solution giving the extremely limited options? Drawn out agonising deaths and extended suffering versus instant nothingness?

    Bit of gallows humour there kinda, naught we can do anyhow.

    The phrase “gallows humour”, of course, originated from an apocryphal conversation during the French Revolution. When informed that the people were hungry and had no bread, Marie Antoinette is infamously said to have replied “lol just hang them all then”.

  91. 91
    chigau (違う)

    PZ #87
    Yes, indeedy.
    What ever happened to scottyroberts?

  92. 92
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Ah, thanks Beatrice.

  93. 93
    chigau (違う)

    The logo…

  94. 94
    Nick Gotts

    I’m turning the computer off now, walking the dog and will return here tomorrow my time. – StevoR

    Everyone else would much rather you didn’t, you genocidal bigot.

  95. 95
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Everyone else would much rather you didn’t, you genocidal bigot.

    StevoR don’t care, StevoR don’t give a shit.

  96. 96
    Amphiox

    One of the main defining properties of “gallows humor” is that the dark humor is directed inwards, at oneself or one’s peer group or at least something one is personally associated with, at least a little bit.

    It is not gallows humor to make jokes about other people being bombed in a faraway land, while one sits comfortably in one’s comfy Australian home, waiting for the next Sidney Funnel-Web spider to jab a fang through one’s big toe (now that, coming from StevoR, would have been gallows humor).

  97. 97
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Well that was a bit surprising.

    Prior to that Southern Man thread, I did not imagine that StevoR is racist against black people per se. Now I wonder.

  98. 98
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I already tried to explain gallows humor to StevoR, but he gave this brilliant answer.

  99. 99
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    It is not gallows humor to make jokes about other people being bombed in a faraway land,

    Here in the US, we call that Republican Humour.

  100. 100
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Although, perhaps I ought to have wondered sooner, when he accused Brownian of being anti-white.

  101. 101
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    there are quintuplets, which are notated like triplets but with a “5″ instead

    Chopin’s big on 22-tuplets. Showoff.

    (Op. 9, no. 1. IMSLP won’t let me link the score; grrr.)

    — —

    Here in the US, we call that Republican Humour.

    I thought you called it Family Guy? ;-)

  102. 102
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    Oh, for fuck’s sake, am I being stupid tonight.

    American Dad

    I will now switch off the computer before I embarass myself further.

  103. 103
    consciousness razor

    Chopin’s big on 22-tuplets. Showoff.

    Ooh, that is delicious.

    The 11-tuplet leading into it makes it sound even more slippery. Altogether, ignoring the bar lines, it’s basically a 33-tuplet. (!!!)

    11:6 is pretty interesting. I don’t know if I’d ever write it. It’s definitely a showoff kind of move, but it all fits in the piece so perfectly. It would take a lot of practice for me to play it evenly (or oddly, I guess).

    (Op. 9, no. 1. IMSLP won’t let me link the score; grrr.)

    Here it is. :)

  104. 104
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Again?
    SteveoR comes here again to whine??!!
    Is he a glutton for punishment?

    I thought he hated it here.
    Who the fuck does the racist asshat think he’s going to convince?

    Thanks to some handy links provided in the last ‘Dome thread, I was able to see for myself that YES, SteveoR is racist. YES, he advocates genocide.

  105. 105
    Valde

    speaking of tone trolls, this comments thread really upset me:

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/2012/11/15/because-abortion-needs-to-be-explained-apparently/

    the author of the article appeared to be tone trolling the other commenters – not something I would have expected on FTB

    e.g. “be polite to forced birthers”

  106. 106
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    SGBM @97:

    Wait.
    What?
    Anyone have a link to the comment he made (not that I need another reason to dislike the fucker)?

  107. 107
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    bobo:
    In my time at FtB, I’ve discovered that the bloggers are a very diverse group. I don’t believe they’re all atheists. I *think* I’ve heard someone say they’re all feminists, but I’m not sure. It doesn’t surprise me that one would be tone trolling.

  108. 108
    Argle Bargle

    While I generally like Crommunist’s blogs, he has a couple of guest commentators, Brian Lynchehaun and HaifischGeweint, who I’m not fond of. As bobo noted in #105 Lynchehaun tone trolls his own threads. HaifischGeweint dislikes people disagreeing with him or asking for evidence for his claims. When there’s posts by either of them, I don’t bother looking at them.

  109. 109
    Silentbob

    @ 105 bobo

    I followed your link and – behold – the author has recanted.

  110. 110
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Tony,

    Anyone have a link to the comment he made (not that I need another reason to dislike the fucker)?

    I’m referring to his obfuscation of the lyrics about Neil Young in Sweet Home Alabama. I’ve replied further down.

    It’s not unambiguously damning. But it makes me wonder.

  111. 111
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Has anyone else noticed Leon Trotsky near the end of this Men’s Wearhouse commercial?

  112. 112
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Ah, my thanks SG :)

  113. 113
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    @SG #110 BAAAAAhahahahahaaaaa

    This is best best way to sum up my feeling about comrade trotsky via twelve second google image search:
    http://imgur.com/r/anarchomemes/etDLB

  114. 114
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    But I must admit, he had a good look.

  115. 115
    consciousness razor

    Has anyone else noticed Leon Trotsky near the end of this Men’s Wearhouse commercial?

    I was wondering where I put him.

  116. 116
    anteprepro

    Thanks to some handy links provided in the last ‘Dome thread, I was able to see for myself that YES, SteveoR is racist. YES, he advocates genocide.

    Well fuck, I didn’t realize I was being redundant. I mean, I should have known, since I usually am, but not usually to such a degree.

  117. 117
    Amphiox

    Thanks to some handy links provided in the last ‘Dome thread, I was able to see for myself that YES, SteveoR is racist. YES, he advocates genocide.

    And those were friendly examples, among the least egregious of StevoR’s bile-filled spewings.

  118. 118
    Silentbob

    @ 97 strange gods before me

    Prior to that Southern Man thread, I did not imagine that StevoR is racist against black people per se. Now I wonder.

    I know StevoR of old from another blog. You are correct that his bigotry isn’t (or I should say, wasn’t) confined to Muslims. He used to go on rants against “cultural relativism” and “hyphenated Americans” (eg. African Americans). He used to defend Western imperialism on the grounds that you’re either a lion or a zebra and lions eat zebras – and anyway, if the enlightened West hadn’t trampled on indigenous peoples someone worse would have. Oddly, he also used to go on anti-”New Atheist” rants, so it’s strange to find him hanging around Pharyngula.

    His old rants are still online but I don’t want to run afoul of the Reset rule:
    Linking to old comments to demonstrate the perfidy of a commenter, rather than linking to evidence to refute the commenter’s claims, will be regarded as an abuse of the principle of charity.

    Suffice it to say he once ventured the opinion that being black in the US is an advantage because you get extra benefits, and described the election of Obama (the first time) as “the ultimate in affirmative action”.

  119. 119
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Silentbob

    I am not surprised. I suppose I should also apologize to him for having black friends, oh dearie me!

  120. 120
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Silentbob,

    His old rants are still online but I don’t want to run afoul of the Reset rule:

    Oh, this is Thunderdome. That rule doesn’t apply here.

    There will be new policies for specific kinds of threads. There will be a few clarifying name changes.

    I will be restarting TET and TZT under new names.

    TET will become [Lounge]. …

    TZT will become [Thunderdome]. …

    Normal threads will be moderated by the rules listed below. … Reset.

    The rules about Threats and Identity almost certainly do apply here, though the wording doesn’t obviously indicate this. But, in word and spirit and practice, Reset does not.

  121. 121
    Menyambal

    StevoR is the guy who assumes that any action at all against the nation of Israel is intended to be genocide. Trying to defend against invaders is not the same as trying to exterminate an entire race for no reason other than their race.

  122. 122
    Inaji

    Silentbob:

    I know StevoR of old from another blog. You are correct that his bigotry isn’t (or I should say, wasn’t) confined to Muslims. He used to go on rants against “cultural relativism” and “hyphenated Americans” (eg. African Americans).

    I’m so not surprised.

    so it’s strange to find him hanging around Pharyngula.

    He will not go away, in spite of being repeatedly invited to take a short walk off a tall cliff.

    His old rants are still online but I don’t want to run afoul of the Reset rule:

    Doesn’t apply in this case, as you aren’t linking to evidence of his racism in order to try and win an argument.

    No one here is in any way enamored of StevoR, he’s spilled and spewed his hatred and ugliness all over and when he’s not doing that, he finds plenty of time to whine about how awful and mean we are to him.

    At any rate, he ventured into Thunderdome last ep to whine about our bullying ways, and has declared at every opportunity how much he hates Thunderdome, because we can be bullies without restriction here. Shorter version: Thunderdome scares him.

  123. 123
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Caine

    Also the idiocy that because of the rules no one would say anything about him (or probably to him) if he just kept his damn mouth shut about the topics he has a history in. He keeps doing this inane pattern where he comes in “HEY REMEMBER HOW MEAN YOU ARE TO ME!!!!” seemingly to specifically draw attention to that fact and start those fights again.

  124. 124
    Inaji

    Ing:

    He keeps doing this inane pattern where he comes in “HEY REMEMBER HOW MEAN YOU ARE TO ME!!!!” seemingly to specifically draw attention to that fact and start those fights again.

    Yes, he does exactly that, at regular intervals. He started up in the ‘Southern Man’ thread again. It’s seems he feels he’ll explode if he can’t start screaming about all the evil brown people on a regular basis.

    I have no idea why it’s so important to him keep hanging out here and trying to convince us to think well of him. It’s not like we’re all going to forget the jaw-droppingly evil garbage he’s said. Even if he underwent a complete change of heart and opinion, it would take a long fucking time for him to earn everyone’s trust.

  125. 125
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Caine

    I had the misfortune once of winding up talking to actual NeoNazis and came to a mild epiphany…the Bond movies and comic books are actually right, hate makes you chatty.

  126. 126
    Inaji

    Ing:

    I had the misfortune once of winding up talking to actual NeoNazis and came to a mild epiphany…the Bond movies and comic books are actually right, hate makes you chatty.

    So it would seem. You can hardly get them to shut up.

  127. 127
    strange gods before me ॐ

    The other stuff isn’t really surprising, but

    and described the election of Obama (the first time) as “the ultimate in affirmative action”.

    I will say, this does surprise me. I usually don’t read Bad Astronomy, so when I look up a comment by StevoR there I’m not familiar with the context of all his earlier comments, but from my cursory look it seems that even when he was in anti-Israel mode back in 2008, he was basically pro-Obama.

    On the other hand, I’ve talked to white supremacists who voted for Obama because they didn’t like Republicans and/or McCain. People are complicated.

  128. 128
    John Morales

    Caine,

    I have no idea why it’s so important to him [StevoR] [1] keep hanging out here and [2] trying to convince us to think well of him.

    That’s something that other specimens have exhibited before (remember the Piltdown?) — I reckon 1 is for much the same reason I like it here: one need not restrict one’s expressiveness or erudition because the commentariat here is composed of pretty cluey cookies and it’s a freeze peach zone, and I reckon 2 is just plain desire for acceptance and validation so as to soothe his bruised ego.

    (1 is fair enough, but 2 is pitiful in its hopeful neediness)

    But hey, let me not be entirely negative here: I also reckon he has a 3-digit IQ! ;)

  129. 129
    Inaji

    SG:

    People are complicated.

    Indeed. I expect the people you described parsed it as a lesser of two evils. I grew up with an extremely bigoted grandfather (proud Bircher) who used the lesser of two evils often to justify what would normally be an unusual opinion or action for him.

  130. 130
    Inaji

    John:

    (remember the Piltdown?)

    Oh yes. Yes, I do.

    I also reckon he has a 3-digit IQ!

    Hahahaha, ah Sandiseattle. At least he left an amusing legacy.

  131. 131
    John Morales

    … and we have a deep well of memes to draw upon.

  132. 132
    strange gods before me ॐ

    In other oddities, I’ve talked to a black man who voted for Romney because he was convinced the economy is going to collapse anyway and he didn’t want a black president to be blamed for it.

  133. 133
    chigau (違う)

    I used the 3-digit IQ line recently in meat space.
    Oddly, no one got the joke.
    (It may be that I spend too much time here.)

  134. 134
    Inaji

    SG:

    I’ve talked to a black man who voted for Romney because he was convinced the economy is going to collapse anyway and he didn’t want a black president to be blamed for it.

    I understand that, but talk about voting against your best interests…

  135. 135
    Inaji

    Chigau:

    I used the 3-digit IQ line recently in meat space.
    Oddly, no one got the joke.

    I’ve used it in meatspace. All of two people got it. That’s a bit scary.

    Pharyngula spoils the masses for us.

  136. 136
    John Morales

    Heh. I noticed Chas esoterically used ‘raisin date’ on the other thread.

    (I wonder how many noticed?)

  137. 137
    strange gods before me ॐ

    I noticed.

  138. 138
    Ingdigo Jump

    @SG

    I’m joining the voluntary extinctions. Doomsday cannot come soon enough.

  139. 139
    consciousness razor

    In other oddities, I’ve talked to a black man who voted for Romney because he was convinced the economy is going to collapse anyway and he didn’t want a black president to be blamed for it.

    That’s unfortunate.

    If that happened and Romney got elected, Obama still would have been blamed for it.

    When the economy comes out of a collapse under his presidency, Obama gets blamed for imaginary things like cooking the numbers and for not making it un-collapse fast enough with his magic presidential powers.

  140. 140
    consciousness razor

    I noticed “raisin date.” Which troll was that? LionIRC-whatever?

  141. 141
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ SGBM

    tardigrade@thunderdome:~$ date –help

    .
    .
    .
    %s seconds since 1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
    .
    .
    .

    WTF ‽

    Why on earth that particular date?

  142. 142
    Rutee Katreya

    @Rodney Nelson
    Yeah, I’m not really concerned when an ignorant white straight dude is not entirely pleased that people don’t like his ‘dissent’.

  143. 143
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Ing, may I suggest childfree instead of vhemt?

    Funny thing is, this time in history is probably the best it’s ever been.

    +++++

    That’s unfortunate.

    Yeah, and as far as I could tell, I didn’t even begin to talk him out of it.

    (My earlier wording was misleading: all I can be sure of is he intended to vote for Romney. I haven’t talked to him yet since the election, so I don’t know what he ultimately did. But he was adamant last time I talked to him.)

  144. 144
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ John Morales

    [chas]

    such political rhetoric is the raisin date of EP

    FIFY: such political rhetoric is the Raison d’être of EP

    I consider myself to be exceptionally funny by saying “Born up a tree” before snacking away on my moss.

  145. 145
    John Morales

    theophontes: look up Coordinated Universal Time and Unix epoch.

  146. 146
    strange gods before me ॐ

    theophontes,

    Why not? Can you think of a better one?

  147. 147
    Inaji

    I always notice raisin date. I have a fondness for eggcorns.

  148. 148
    John Morales

    theophontes, it was before your time.

    cf. http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Memes

    (Shame NatGeo is either too incompetent or too pusillanimous to restore old Pharyngula comments — I have forgotten the nym of the specific specimen that unironically came up with that one (cf. #140 above))

  149. 149
    Valde

    @109

    @ 105 bobo

    I followed your link and – behold – the author has recanted.

    Yes, he has. But only because his view would meant that forced birthers were ‘controlling’ the conversation, not because it wasn’t his place to tell women whether or not they are allowed to be angry over being treated as subhumans.

    So, still offensive!

  150. 150
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Beatrice

    I’m not sure why we’re all going along with the “StevoR might be educated if we only try hard enough” hypothesis.

    I, for one, have retracted that position. StevoR, it appears, is far too dyed-in-the-wool to ever be educated in this regard.

    I was mostly for restricting StevoR to Thunderdome, but it would probably be best if he’s banned altogether.

    This is a better suggestion.

    @StevoR

    religious ideology brainwashes and fucks up

    Then just argue this. Do not book-end it with “Islamic” and “Muslims”. (IMHO, xtianity is by far the biggest danger to the planet anyhow.)

    If I (or others here) have mischaracterised you, then show this with examples. But the least I expect is that, upon finding that you are wrong, you make ammends too.

    @ SGBM/John Morales

    [1970-01-01: convenient at the time / arbitrary]

    And there I go again, looking for sophistimicated raisins amongst the peanuts.

    restore old Pharyngula comments

    That would be really cool. (For one, I would like to know when I waddled into Scienceblogs. Not soon after I got extremely hot under the collar arguing with SGBM from atop my high-horse. Them’s were the days!)

    [more raisins]
    In Afrikaans there are many of these plays on words:

    kos my niks —> cosmetics (Transl: “costs me nothing”)
    Buy a donkey —> Thank you (Afrikaans: “baie dankie”)

  151. 151
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    Holy crap, my eyes have been bedazzled by the new layout….

    ✰_✰

  152. 152
    Inaji

    I want my killfile back! *stamps feet*

  153. 153
    Silentbob

    @ 122 Caine, Fleur du mal

    [The Reset rule] Doesn’t apply in this case, as you aren’t linking to evidence of his racism in order to try and win an argument.

    OK, I’ll quote and link to evidence to back up what I said in my previous comment @ 118.

    First some notes:
    1. This will be long (and painful). Sorry. I tried to select just a few quotes to give the gist, but still ended up with a lot of stuff.
    2. These quotes are one or two years old and don’t necessarily reflect StevoR’s current views.
    3. StevoR posted these under a different alias, “Messier Tidy Upper”. I’m not “outing” him, he outed himself here (as “Flying sardines”):

    Feel free to quote this with or without cites and use as youfeel best suits you Ms Watson. Best regards : StevoR (aka Flying sardines aka Messier Tidy Upper on this & other blogs.)

    4. As far as I can tell, I can’t link to the individual comments from which these quotes were taken, only to the OP. Scroll down for the comment threads.

    Now some of StevoR/Messier Tidy Upper’s Greatest Misses:

    On “Cultural Relativism”

    I do think liberals & left-wingers tend to excessively venerate and give unearned respect to other “cultures” for the sake of it and inadvertantly denigrating their own culture and identity in the process.

    Do you know what cultural relativism even is?

    It’s saying all cultures are exactly equal, no culture is any better or worse than another.

    I think that’s a false belief. I do think Western culture (yes, our culture) that has produced science and the internet, that values human rights, that treats people equally regardless of skin colour etc .. is better than a culture that doesn’t do these things.

    Judeo-Christian (or descended from that heritage) *is* our culture!

    Western societies, and civilisation arose through and in a background of Judeo-Christianity.

    Relativism is ignoring that and saying all cultures – all ideas and ideologies – are of equal vlaue and that notion, yeah, I disagree with.

    Jewish culture places an extremely high value and gives enormous respect on scholarship and debating and is one of the very many “gifts of the Jews” to Western culture. It is one of the things that makes the Jewish culture perhaps the greatest of all those thousands of cultures humans have invented.

    Soft-hearted, soft-headed, naive liberals, left-wingers and cultural relativists kid themsleves that the world is all rainbows and fuzzy toys and unicorns. Nice as that’d be it ain’t. :-(

    The liberal left-wing ideology will destory us if its followed, in the end it is a suicidal way of thinking. It can’t and won’t work in the real world which is not always a nice place. :-(

    On Lions and Zebras

    Also on cultures and relativism again – it is a sad, stark fact based on historical precedent that cultures must choose between being metaphorical zebras or lions.

    A culture that expands and spreads, builds and invents, explores and colonises is a lion.

    A culture that does not is a zebra.

    Lions will eat zebras.

    If you want your culture, your friends and family to survive and do well, if you support the values and works of your culture and wish them to continue and do well then you just have to advocate being a lion and doing the “eating” rather than being a zebra and rolling over to be eaten.

    On Western Imperialism

    What was the alternative?

    If the British Empire didn’t colonise Australia then the French Empire would have and if not the French then the Germans or Russians or another Colonial power. Would they have been any better – or would they have been much worse?

    We’ll never know for sure – barring contact with alternate universes – but I strongly feel the British were the best of Empires, more humane, more generous, more enlightened than most others with the only possible exception being the American one.

    On The Ultimate in Affirmative Action

    The left wing, liberals, kid themselves of far more dangerous things when it comes to foreign affairs where they kid themselves that being nice and appeasing Muslim Jihadists and Communist dictatorships will work out well and not just be seen by our enemies as weakness inspiring and exploiting ever more depraved acts of terrorism, they kid themselves that multiculturalism / cultural relativism, Political Correctness and “hyphenated Americans”* are good things, they kid themselves too on crime and immigration and much, much more. :-(
    [... ]
    * Such as celebrating and getting Obama into power effecctively through the ultimate in “affirmative action.” Never mind the valid debate over the fact that Obama is not actually African-American in the conventional meaning of the word – being half-”white” (American-American?) and of *Kenyan* immigrant-American not (ex-slave & longtime US resident) African-American ancestry; isn’t anyone in the USA bothered by the fact that you have a half- & hyphenated-American in office as President rather than an all-American individual? (My issue her isn’t with Obama’s skin colour but his cultiral and personal identity & loyalty / patriotism / understanding of America.)

    Are you denying that that’s Obama’s background?

    Or that “affirmative action” is discrimination based on race – one that elevates African-Americans at the expense of other ethnic groups?

    [In response to the question, And what the hell is an "all-American individual" anyway?]

    An American individual – United States thereof – who is born and raised in the USA, who strongly upholds and supports American culture and its key values (democracy, capitalism, equality, the right to life, liberty & pursuit of happiness, the American way, etc ..) and doesn’t have divided loyalties or define herself / himself as some qualified, hyphenated part-American identity eg. African-American, Arab-American, heck even Irish American but is instead purely un-hyphenated-ly American.

    On The Benefits of Being Black

    Are the African-Americans meaning to say by terming themselves that that they hold African values or are of African culture – because Africa is a whole great continent with a range of different cultures from Libyan and Moroccan at the Northern end through to South African at the southern tip. Which African culture and what African elements are they meant to be identifying with – the ones of their long vanished distant tribal ancestors and Arab Slavers who sold them into slavery? The modern African cultures with dictatorships and tribal warfare like that most horribly displayed in Rwanada in the Hutu-Tutsi genocides? Why? Are they not now fully melded into the melting pot that is American culture?

    Yes, I know there was the whole sorry episode of civil wars, segregation and so on, I know the’re’s been past extrme racism and suffering. I’m not meaning to deny or minimise that – but that is all long over. Martin Luther King had a dream that all people be treated equally. Nowadays in US culture being black-skinned is if anything an advantage or so I gather. They get the benefits of “affirmative action” and they and their sub-cultures are celebrated in many different ways.There’s hardly any racism left – otherwise the ACLU would have better things to do than carry on about Hallmark cards that mentioned “black holes” like somehow *that* was racist?

    Would Obama have been elected if he had been a purely white-skinned man rather than a bi-racial one who is generally but dubiously considered – and applauded for being – “black”, I wonder?

    On Obama

    Someone who there is argument over his birth nation, someone born to a father who follows a religion that is waging a Jihad on America – and holds values antagonistic to and incompatible with mainstream American culture and values, someone who was raised in Indonesia, the world’s largest Muslim nation and a third world dictatorship at the time, someone who only half identifies themselves as American (the hyphenated prefix) who listens to anti-American speeches attending and loyally following an anti-American hate-monger and buddying up with Communist terrorists in his past; you really saying there aren’t some valid questions to be asked about *that* particular candidate’s suitability for the office of President of the United States?

    I’m seriously asking whether someone who was friends with a Communist terrorist, a fan and devoted supporter of a black supremacist hate-mongering anti-American preacher and whose main election slogans were meaningless nonsense would have had a chance of winning the Presidency if it wasn’t for the reverse racism implicit in the “Let’s have a black President! Any Black president!” mood with the last US election.

    Look at how Obama snubbed Israel and how he is preferring and trying to appease the Muslim world – populated by fanatical, murderous, misogynist, homophobic, anti-Semitic bigoted Muslims versus his mistreatment of the Jewish State which is a tolerant, rational, democratic oasis of civilisation in the desert of barbarism that is the surrounding Middle East.

    On Miracles (srsly)

    Belief in [miracles] is as contentious as belief in God.

    Many athiests have entirely closed their minds to the possibility that these could occur or be real.

    The Catholic Church among other groups, OTOH, has documented many of them -although science conflicting with Catholic is hardly a first! ;-)

    I’m not certain and keep an open mind, I’m agnostic withmitacle sas I am with God, seeing both sides putting strong cases albeit more convincing to those that are already on their side.

    Well, in my opinion the evidence for miracles seems a little stronger than that fror UFO’s and anal probing aliens. That’s just my view from my understanding of things & as I weigh up the various factors involved and I don’t necessarily expect you to share it.

    All the above come from this source.

    On New Atheists

    I think the “new atheists” often use attack a strawman of faith and religion rather than accepting that religion is often more subtle, nuanced and complex that they seem to recognise. They also seem to forget the basic humanity and underestimate the intelligence and reasons.

    Attacking religious ideas – especially the extreme fundamentalist versions I have no problem with.

    Being outright viciously mean to other human beings and mocking them for having different veiws in this area, OTOH, well that I do have a problem with. I think it can be very counter-productive, off-putting and drive people further away from atheism, agnosticism and skepticism and its practitioners.

    I …
    just …
    sometimes … really wish .. that the agressive “new atheist” types would listen a bit more and bit more respectfully to the other side of the argument and be a bit more reasonable in advocating reason remembering that they’re talking to fellow rational and emotional human individuals not abstract archetypes of ayatollahs and fundagelicals.

    I could go on to [Dawkins'] whole tone and apparent attitude which pretty much drips with fury, spite and contempt for all non-atheists, his one-sided characterisation of the Old Testament God as [paraphrasing from memory here but something very like] :

    “genocidal, misognyist, jealous, cruel, monstrous, tyrannical …” et cetera .. etc ..

    In a whole paragraph odd-long string of perjorative adjectives without also noting that the OT God equally has his positive side & overlooking the reality that He could equally be described as “loving, forgiving, merciful, generous, loyal, willing to listen to criticism” et cetera, etc .. as well.

    When it comes to taking the Bible (or, pretty much, any other religious text) literally and fundamentally through a strict fundamentalist literalist /New Athiest / Falwellist /bin Laden-ist lens then yeah, Dawkins is right.

    The Bible is NOT a science (or maths) text book, never was, never was intended to be and many religious doctrines on their apparent face value can be made to look stupidly absurd.

    It is easy to laugh along with Dawkins & his friends at the silly, ugly overly simplified and generalised caricatures of faith and religion that he invents and interprets for himself.

    But real religion isn’t like that – it is much richer and deeper and more nuanced and complex than Dawkins’ strawman presentation.

    In a major sense I think the New Atheists quite literally do NOT know what they are speaking about because they are not prepared to listen and don’t care to understand the other side or what they are actually saying and thinking. They overlook what religion is and insist that faith means only “blind faith”; that God equals only “delusion” and do not see that they are talking about something that doesn’t properly exist outside their own frame of reference.

    All the “new atheist” quotes come from this source.

  154. 154
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I needed to stop here:

    We’ll never know for sure – barring contact with alternate universes – but I strongly feel the British were the best of Empires, more humane, more generous, more enlightened than most others with the only possible exception being the American one.

    Wow. Just wow.

    *takes deep breath and keeps going*

  155. 155
    Nick Gotts

    Silentbob@153,

    Thanks for that piece of research! Most enlightening.

  156. 156
    onychophora

    I don’t like the goddamned fucking new fonts. Even the word “thunderdome” looks motherfucking cheesy in that font. Rawr! Nerdrage! Change is bad!

  157. 157
    vaiyt

    That’s glorious.

    Racist, imperialist, ethnocentrist, Birther, accomodationist. StevoR is the whole package, isn’t he?

  158. 158
    anteprepro

    Oh wow. StevoR is even worse than I thought. And here I thought it was just heavy compartmentalization when really he’s just full-on wingnut.

  159. 159
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Also on cultures and relativism again – it is a sad, stark fact based on historical precedent that cultures must choose between being metaphorical zebras or lions.

    A culture that expands and spreads, builds and invents, explores and colonises is a lion.

    A culture that does not is a zebra.

    Lions will eat zebras.

    If you want your culture, your friends and family to survive and do well, if you support the values and works of your culture and wish them to continue and do well then you just have to advocate being a lion and doing the “eating” rather than being a zebra and rolling over to be eaten.

    Oh, dear. I read this and all of the problems with this analogy came to mind at once. There’s now a traffic jam.

  160. 160
    vaiyt

    @SC. 159: Off the top of my head…
    - Likening the food chain to a hierarchy.
    - Associating “expands”, “builds”, “invents” and “colonises” with lions, a species that does nothing of the sort.
    - Saying zebras just roll over waiting to be eaten.

    But it’s fun to run with the analogy!

    Lions sleep 20 hours a day.
    Lions kill less than 1/3 of the animals they hunt.
    Lions are adept at stealing prey from other, more efficient hunters.
    Lions die of hunger if there’s no other animals to prey on.

    What kind of conclusions can we draw from this?

  161. 161
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Silentbob

    Holy Crud. It is going to take me a while to process that quantity of scariness in one go. I have (as SC put it) a bit of a mental logjam right now.

  162. 162
    onychophora

    A culture that expands and spreads, builds and invents, explores and colonises is the Borg.
    The Borg assimilates (“eats”) other cultures.

    Should we be the Borg?

  163. 163
    Pteryxx

    Because symbiosis doesn’t exist in nature, only predator-prey interactions count for cultural analogy. Which cultures get to be the honey guide and which the badger?

  164. 164
    SallyStrange

    Aww, no Chadgething? I haz disappoint. I still want to know why he acted like he didn’t know a damn thing about the Stonewall riots, when, as he claimed, it’s “self-evident” that the riots sparked the development of the modern civil rights movement.

  165. 165
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Personally, I would love to know how come cunt is a word use of which deserves to be defended in multiple posts, while at the same time Chadgething chides us for using naughty language and being disrespectful.

  166. 166
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I want chadgething to comment on MLK’s letter from a Birmingham jail were he said his biggest problem wasn’t the real racists, but those moderates who were worried about tone and politeness….

  167. 167
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Ugh.

    I didn’t imagine it was possible for me to feel disappointed with StevoR.

  168. 168
    consciousness razor

    I’m surprised anyone expected better from StevoR.

    The part about “hyphenated Americans” is kind of hard to grok, coming from an Australian. Why would he care how “pure” our culture (or our president) is? I guess he’d already allied himself (totally!) with “America” and “Israel” against “Muslims” (never mind all those who don’t support the causes they’re being labeled with) so anything which supposedly threatens those allies would supposedly threaten him too. Okay. I guess I could understand where that’s coming from, as absurd as it is.

    But then, there’s not as much black-and-white, categorical thinking when it comes to criticism of new atheists. We get wishy-washy apologetics for Christianity and Judaism, and maybe a generic “monotheism” — though I think I can safely leave out Islam — which is all about blurring the boundaries as much as possible. Lots of “relativistic” thinking and gray areas and more than enough room for doubt (read: belief!). That’s when we hear about how unfair strawmen and over-generalizations and caricatures are, how maybe the OT god was somehow both sort of good and sort of bad, how religion and “faith” can sort of be reasonable sometimes for some people in some ways…. And miracles? Sure, who really knows? All those parts are probably about as reasonable and level-headed as StevoR gets, which is pretty sad.

  169. 169
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Perhaps the Stevocake would love Hyphen.

    I had an uncle who had this album.

    Ugh!

    (The comments, it seems are all from Freepland.)

  170. 170
    Inaji

    I do think Western culture (yes, our culture) that has produced science

    My brain choked to a halt early – he thinks science is a result of Western culture? Unholy cow. I guess history, much like everything else, eludes StevoR.

  171. 171
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Funny that Caine and I posted at the same time. Caine has a funny story about working for John Wayne.

  172. 172
    Nick Gotts

    It’s worth noting that StevoR’s question about the alternative to the British Empire is quite easily answered, at least with respect to Australia. British settlement did not begin until 1804, no other state had made any preparations for settlement, and after the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805 the British Navy had an unchallengeable global supremacy, which it maintained throughout the 19th century. So the ethical alternative to settlement and annexation was to declare that Britain regarded Australia as belonging to its current inhabitants, would not settle or annex any part of it, and would prevent any other power doing so. Of course this was never considered, but that was because of British imperialism, not because it would have been in any way impractical.

  173. 173
    Inaji

    Janine:

    Caine has a funny story about working for John Wayne.

    Christ, that man scared the crap outta me. Was hardly worth the money. I kept envisioning spending my young life in prison.

  174. 174
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    We’ll never know for sure – barring contact with alternate universes – but I strongly feel the British were the best of Empires, more humane, more generous, more enlightened than most others …

    This is actually quite a common trope in Australia. It is perhaps even mildly defensible, in abstract historical terms – if you had to be colonised, who would you rather be colonised by? That is, in the same sense of abstractly discussing whether it’s better to be hanged, pressed or burned at the stake. So the Belgians were worse. Woo fucking hoo.

  175. 175
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    Damnit <q> tags don’t make comic sans now :(

  176. 176
    consciousness razor
    I do think Western culture (yes, our culture) that has produced science

    My brain choked to a halt early – he thinks science is a result of Western culture? Unholy cow. I guess history, much like everything else, eludes StevoR.

    It’s that “Western culture” is somehow science and civilization itself. Let’s not forget that is supposed be “Judeo-Christian” — that will come in handy later, when we decide who exactly we’re rooting for. We’re just supposed to forget about the influences from Greeks, Romans, Persians, Arabs, Africans, Asians of all sorts…. For some odd reason, we only ever get as far as white nationalists from the 18th and 19th century colonial empires, slap “Western culture” on it and shove “Judeo-Christian” in there for a bit of back-story.

    Someone recently quoted Tacitus:

    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.

    To ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace.

  177. 177
    consciousness razor

    Sorry, I meant to say It’s odd that “Western culture”…. blah blah blah

  178. 178
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    OOoooh, I can’t wait for that fucker, SteveoR to pop back in here and whine again.

    Thanks for all of that SilentBob.

  179. 179
    Inaji

    CR:

    Let’s not forget that is supposed be “Judeo-Christian” — that will come in handy later, when we decide who exactly we’re rooting for. We’re just supposed to forget about the influences from Greeks, Romans, Persians, Arabs, Africans, Asians of all sorts….

    Apparently. I just recently finished reading Spice: The History of A Temptation by Jack Turner. It was a fascinating look into a small window of history. One thing which came up fairly often was that every time Eastern Trade was revived, there was a steady influx of Arab science, which seriously helped “western culture” along. I don’t imagine that would sit over well with StevoR.

  180. 180
    consciousness razor

    The opening quotation marks (but not closing ones!) in blockquotes look even sillier when they’re nested…

  181. 181
    Inaji

    Tony:

    OOoooh, I can’t wait for that fucker, SteveoR to pop back in here and whine again.

    You forget, Tony, StevoR finds Thunderdome, with it’s lack of an authoritative rule, to be ooga booga scary.

  182. 182
    Inaji

    CR:

    The opening quotation marks (but not closing ones!) in blockquotes look even sillier when they’re nested…

    Yeah, I am not digging the new ‘design’.

  183. 183
    Argle Bargle

    Yeah, I am not digging the new ‘design’.

    Me neither. I want my killfile, my Comic Sans and my Gumby.

  184. 184
    Inaji

    Rodney:

    I want my killfile, my Comic Sans and my Gumby.

    Me too. We’ll get the killfile back, as SGBM will work on that. Comic Sans is whenever PZ gets around to fixing the q tags. Last time, that took about forever.

  185. 185
    John Morales

    I personally very much dislike the term “Judeo-Christian”.

    I quote from Wikipedia, where the main thrust of my objection* to it:

    Law professor Stephen M. Feldman identifies talk of Judeo-Christian tradition as supersessionism:

    Once one recognizes that Christianity has historically engendered antisemitism, then this so-called tradition appears as dangerous Christian dogma (at least from a Jewish perspective). For Christians, the concept of a Judeo-Christian tradition comfortably suggests that Judaism progresses into Christianity—that Judaism is somehow completed in Christianity. The concept of a Judeo-Christian tradition flows from the Christian theology of supersession, whereby the Christian covenant (or Testament) with God supersedes the Jewish one. Christianity, according to this myth, reforms and replaces Judaism. The myth therefore implies, first, that Judaism needs reformation and replacement, and second, that modern Judaism remains merely as a “relic”. Most importantly the myth of the Judeo-Christian tradition insidiously obscures the real and significant differences between Judaism and Christianity.

    * It’s often merely used to seem highbrow.

    PS I see what you mean about the preview, Caine; when previewing this comment the rendering is well and truly fucked-up.

  186. 186
    Inaji

    John:

    I personally very much dislike the term “Judeo-Christian”.

    I try to go with ‘Abrahamaic Religions’ instead. I do slip at times, though, and there’s “Judeo-Christian”, out of habit.

  187. 187
    marymurphy

    Mr. Myers. I wasn’t sure exactly where to post my concern to. So, forgive me for posting it twice. I’ve been a silent reader for some time now, and your science blogs are of interest to me. I was fortunate enough a couple years back to see you speak. I found you informative, and somewhat humorous in your presentation. I am posting this here since the page I’m commenting about is not allowing comments. I don’t follow or understand some of the pettiness that seems to follow your blogs. Your “dungeon” page is odd, and something I would expect to see on a different type site. Maybe a yahoo group for teen boys. I have to wonder if you ever stop and think of what some of your fellow colleagues like Eugenie C. Scott for example would think? It is immature, and some of what you say about these people is not backed up with proof. If you are going to call someone racist then show proof of why you believe this. It is the responsible thing to do. Someone could say that they don’t advise anyone to let their young daughters alone with you, because you are a pervert. Do you see what my problem is with this accusation? It can damage a person, and once it is out there, people latch on to it. It can damage the reputation of a person for years. Based on a suggestion. Mr. Myers, you are a intelligent man. I feel it is time for you to behave as one. Shame on you for losing your sight, acting irresponsible, and behaving like a juvenile boy.

  188. 188
    consciousness razor

    For Christians, the concept of a Judeo-Christian tradition comfortably suggests that Judaism progresses into Christianity—that Judaism is somehow completed in Christianity

    But by this point, if that had any merit, we should really be speaking of “Christo-Islamic” tradition, right? I’m sure StevoR will go right along with that.

  189. 189
    Argle Bargle

    marymurphy #187

    Your concern is noted.

  190. 190
    Inaji

    MaryMurphy:

    It is immature, and some of what you say about these people is not backed up with proof.

    It’s not the least immature, it’s informative. No proof? Did you try clicking on all the links? The fuckwits in the dungeon have left evidence of their fuckwittery littered all over the damn place. We know, we get to deal with them every day. Like we’re dealing with you.

  191. 191
    consciousness razor

    If you are going to call someone racist then show proof of why you believe this. It is the responsible thing to do.

    Every time a troll says racist garbage here, PZ needs to keep it here on his site and link to it on a dedicated, permanent page? How would that be “the responsible thing to do”? How would it be good at all?

    Someone could say that they don’t advise anyone to let their young daughters alone with you, because you are a pervert.

    Yes, people can make shit up, like you just did. But is it simply incredible to you that racist trolls comment here from time to time?

    It can damage a person, and once it is out there, people latch on to it. It can damage the reputation of a person for years.

    They shouldn’t have actually said racist garbage (which is different from other people making shit up about them, like you just did). If that damages their reputations, that’s a very good thing.

  192. 192
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    Oh Mary. I love how you request proof for something about which you know nothing. The dungeon denizens are there for good reason. Every single one of them left ample evidence as to their infringement of PZ’s rules. Just because you weren’t around to see it happen doesn’t mean he didn’t have good reason for the banning. Oh, and you are aware that these things can be googled, aren’t you? In some cases where the comments are truly hateful PZ has deleted them but for the most part the idiot’s words are still there.

  193. 193
    John Morales

    MaryMurphy is accusative towards PZ:

    Shame on you for losing your sight, acting irresponsible, and behaving like a juvenile boy.

    Leaving aside that boys are (definitionally) juvenile, it is to PZ’s credit that he is still youthful at heart.

    (There, there &mash; I will not shame you for behaving like an old fogey)

  194. 194
    Inaji

    CR:

    Yes, people can make shit up, like you just did.

    A person could be tempted to think, with the recent influx of disgruntled MRAs, that the whole purpose of marymurphy’s veddy concerned post was simply to get in another shot about PZ being a prevert. Especially as one dpitman was screeching the very same thing in two separate posts in two threads.

  195. 195
    John Morales

    “Mistress Mary, Quite contrary,
    How does your dudgeon grow?”

  196. 196
    Inaji

    John:

    “Mistress Mary, Quite contrary,
    How does your dudgeon grow?”

    Beautiful.

  197. 197
    Argle Bargle

    Mary,

    For the most part the inhabitants of the Dungeon have to work hard to be banned. PZ rules this place by benign neglect. It takes serious trolling for PZ to notice them enough for them to get banned.

  198. 198
    marymurphy

    consciousness razor, Caine, Fleur du mal I’m sorry, I do believe that I posted my thoughts to Mr. Myers. Since this is a open thread I will look into your replies. I would still like to address this to Myers.

    Here are two people that have no link proving that one is a racist, homophobe, and the other a stalker to his ex.

    1. Bob Stevensson Racist homophobe with poor impulse control and no coherence at all.

    2. Jim Klingenberg Creepy stalker dude. Posted treacly pleas of undying love to his ex here on Pharyngula, revealing both name and location — grow up, guy, and move on.

    As for my hypothetical scenario of Mr Myers and his perversions is pretty clear to be a hypothetical situation. My point is I can think this of someone just cause I find them “creepy”, and it insinuates they are a “molester” to young ladies. which is clearly just a opinion. Without evidence, it is just that. It is irresponsible to attack someone’s character in such a manor. If you do not like me using Mr. Myers in my hypothetical situation, then it proves my point of how irresponsible his behavior has been.

    Now here is where the boy behavior comes in. My list of immature name calling by a well educated adult.

    troll, sockpuppet (what is a sockpuppet), Very icky misogynis, Pig-stupid, twit, asshole, A cupcake (how ironic to use a derogatory term used to insult a gay man), douchecanoe, and Pervy, These were just used in half the names used on his list. I quit combing it, and felt this is enough to make my point.

  199. 199
    marymurphy

    Umm??? Yeah, okay. John, this is a big boy conversation.

    Mistress Mary, Quite contrary,
    How does your dudgeon grow?

  200. 200
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I did not catch the events with Bob Stevenssen. But I have been around long enough to trust PZ’s actions.

    As for Jim Klingenberg; here is the story. One of the regulars ended a relationship with him. Jim did not take it well. He posted a number of pleading messages to the regular, going so far as to use the regular’s name. PZ did the only reasonable thing he could do, he deleted all of the messages when he banned Jim.

    This is not some plot by an immature child as you earlier claimed.

  201. 201
    marymurphy

    A person could be tempted to think, with the recent influx of disgruntled MRAs, that the whole purpose of marymurphy’s veddy concerned post was simply to get in another shot about PZ being a prevert. Especially as one dpitman was screeching the very same thing in two separate posts in two threads.

    I have no desire to take shots at Mr. Myers. I simply gave a hypothetical situation. If you prefer then I can give another. I could say… Don’t drive with Mr. Myers at the wheel. He is a known heavy drinker. (I will say now. this is hypothetical in suggestion.)

  202. 202
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Too late, you already have taken shots.

  203. 203
    marymurphy

    I did not catch the events with Bob Stevenssen. But I have been around long enough to trust PZ’s actions.

    As for Jim Klingenberg; here is the story. One of the regulars ended a relationship with him. Jim did not take it well. He posted a number of pleading messages to the regular, going so far as to use the regular’s name. PZ did the only reasonable thing he could do, he deleted all of the messages when he banned Jim.

    This is not some plot by an immature child as you earlier claimed.

    These statements could be completely true. My accusation of childish behavior is not linking it to the proof of these things. Just as it may be true, it can also be completely false.

  204. 204
    Inaji

    I would still like to address this to Myers.

    Then e-mail Prof. Myers, Murphy. (Hint: you have to get your nose out of the dungeon to find his e-mail address). You don’t get to command a personal audience in an open thread, especially one which, being unmoderated, doesn’t grab PZ’s attention much.

    Your one and only aim seems to be getting slurs in regarding PZ. If you were all that offended, I doubt you’d keep bringing them up.

    troll, sockpuppet (what is a sockpuppet)

    Troll is a well-know internet term, as is the behaviour of one trolling. Are you familiar with this thing called Google, by chance? If you don’t know what a sockpuppet is, what in the fuckety fuck are you moaning about? Do your fucking research first. It’s another well-known phenomenon. Look it up.

    Very icky misogynis, Pig-stupid, twit, asshole, A cupcake (how ironic to use a derogatory term used to insult a gay man)

    Misogynists exist, dear, and they tend to be quite noisy. We don’t care for them here. As for them being ‘very icky’, I agree. Pig-stupid? It is rather insulting to pigs, I grant you. Nothing wrong with twit or asshole, they make up a large portion of the population, unfortunately. Now Cupcake is a meme, one originated by me. It is not anything to do with gay men and as someone who is bisexual, you wouldn’t find me using gay slurs. Click the link: http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Cupcake

    douchecanoe, and Pervy

    Douchecanoe, douchecake, douchebiscuit and many a variation on douchebag are happily used here, given the history of douching and how anti-woman it happens to be. As to pervy, well, some people are, ya know.

    Honestly, “Mary”, if you’re going to clutch your pearls and have the vapours over such things, stop looking for them.

  205. 205
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Also, marymurphy, I have a question for you. How many people will know the real names of most of the people listed in the dungeon? How will their reputations be damaged?

  206. 206
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Your formatting is terrible.

  207. 207
    Inaji

    Jesus Fucking Christ – if you’re going to insist on posting, “Mary”, learn to fucking quote correctly. What in the hell is it with trolls not knowing how to fucking quote? Is this some super huge mystery now?

  208. 208
    Inaji

    this is a big boy conversation.

    It is? We’re all male, are we, including you, Mary?

    Weren’t Mary and Murphy previous morphs of Pilty?

  209. 209
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Caine and anyone else, was there anything about the Jim Klingenberg situation that I was wrong about or lying about.

  210. 210
    Nepenthe

    What in the hell is it with trolls not knowing how to fucking quote?

    Well, blockquoting requires one to string together several characters in a meaningful way. Need I say more?

  211. 211
    Inaji

    Janine:

    Caine and anyone else, was there anything about the Jim Klingenberg situation that I was wrong about or lying about.

    Nope. That was a terribly distressing event, which resulted in at least one regular leaving for PET. The meatspace info revealed by Jim left zero choice as to his posts, they had to be deleted.

  212. 212
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    Oh dear. Mary, it would appear that in addition to not knowing how formatting works you also don’t understand how the internet works. With a few exceptions the comments that got those folks banned are still available to anyone who cares to look for them. If all you have is two instances out of the seventy or so denizens of the dungeon it’s quite clear that you’re cherry picking in order to grind a particular axe.*

    Care to back up your assertion of childishness with something other than evidence-less assertion?

    *mixed metaphors: the most tastiest kind.

  213. 213
    Inaji

    Nepenthe:

    Need I say more?

    I suppose not, but I do find it incredibly disheartening that so many people are such idiots that they don’t understand quotation.

  214. 214
    Inaji

    Hmmm, you know who quoted just like ‘Mary’ and was recently banned? That Christtestter critter.

  215. 215
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    For weeks, people were telling that stupid asshole how to do simple formatting.

  216. 216
    Inaji

    Yes, I’d say it didn’t take at all.

  217. 217
    John Morales

    marymurphy:

    I have no desire to take shots at Mr. Myers.

    Then you have done that which you did not desire to do.

    troll, sockpuppet (what is a sockpuppet), Very icky misogynis, Pig-stupid, twit, asshole, A cupcake (how ironic to use a derogatory term used to insult a gay man), douchecanoe, and Pervy, These were just used in half the names used on his list. I quit combing it, and felt this is enough to make my point.

    Almost seems that it’s the terminology that offends you, rather than the personal charges those words connote.

    (Blind, irresponsible, juvenile, unbecoming — those are the charges you have made about PZ)

    Umm??? Yeah, okay. John, this is a big boy conversation.

    So, you are a big boy? ;)

  218. 218
    Inaji

    A Boy Named Mary…

    Just doesn’t have the same ring as Sue.

  219. 219
    marymurphy

    Janine, to answer your question about reputations? Have you ever used Google? Most employers do, and with it many of those names may come up with their identity as well. People often use the same username on various accounts. So you tell me.
    As for my formatting, I agree. I have not used html codes since I am not a blogger, website designer, and myspace is dead no longer have use for them. I no longer have the desire, nor the patience to learn them again.

  220. 220
    marymurphy

    No I am not a boy. I often would tell my son that when he acted in a childish way. So, no penis here.

  221. 221
    marymurphy

    Caine, Fleur du mal I do believe you were deprived of the breast as a baby, and then into adult hood. You really are a moron.

  222. 222
    John Morales

    marymurphy @220, well then, how is it “a big boy conversation” if you’re not a big boy?

  223. 223
    consciousness razor

    consciousness razor, Caine, Fleur du mal I’m sorry, I do believe that I posted my thoughts to Mr. Myers.

    This is a blog, not PZ’s email inbox. This is an almost completely unmoderated part of this blog, meaning PZ probably won’t respond here.

    Without evidence, it is just that.

    Many of them can be cited with evidence. So what exactly do you expect? Take one of your own examples:

    Jim Klingenberg Creepy stalker dude. Posted treacly pleas of undying love to his ex here on Pharyngula, revealing both name and location — grow up, guy, and move on.

    Should revealing information about someone have been left here, just so you wouldn’t be able to find some way of doubting any of it ever happened? Is that really such an extraordinary fucking claim for goddamned skeptic like you?

    If you do not like me using Mr. Myers in my hypothetical situation, then it proves my point of how irresponsible his behavior has been.

    Nonsense. If PZ did something wrong (your “hypothetical” claim was that he’s a “pervert” and should be kept away from his daughter, so that apparently means incest and pedophilia), then I’d be totally satisfied by his reputation going down the tubes. IT WOULD BE A GOOD THING. If he brought that shit up on others’ websites, they would completely justified in erasing it and telling people all about what a fucking asshole he was.

  224. 224
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    If that is the fucking case, marybrown, if those trolls were so concerned, they could avoid saying racist and/or sexist shit. The onus is upon them, no one is forcing them to say these things.

    You do not need to put on the tights and cape for their sakes.

    I have not used html codes since I am not a blogger, website designer, and myspace is dead no longer have use for them. I no longer have the desire, nor the patience to learn them again.

    Guess what? I do not have a blog. I can not even begin to design a website. I never had a myspace page. Yet I learned simply so I could communicate better. It is not difficult.

  225. 225
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Caine, Fleur du mal I do believe you were deprived of the breast as a baby, and then into adult hood. You really are a moron.

    Fuck you, you paramecium ignorant pissant.

  226. 226
    Inaji

    Caine, Fleur du mal I do believe you were deprived of the breast as a baby, and then into adult hood.

    This is your idea of an insult? Do better, Cupcake, that’s abysmal.

  227. 227
    marymurphy

    It has been my experience that once you start attacking a commentor for their spelling, formatting, and punctuation, then follow up with personal jabs at my gender instead of the content of my posts, then you pretty much cannot defend any further such negative behavior.

  228. 228
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Nonsense. If PZ did something wrong (your “hypothetical” claim was that he’s a “pervert” and should be kept away from his daughter, so that apparently means incest and pedophilia), then I’d be totally satisfied by his reputation going down the tubes. IT WOULD BE A GOOD THING. If he brought that shit up on others’ websites, they would completely justified in erasing it and telling people all about what a fucking asshole he was.

    Funny thing there. Creationists have brought those charges against PZ in years past. Somehow, PZ has gotten by.

  229. 229
    John Morales

    marymurphy:

    Caine, Fleur du mal I do believe you were deprived of the breast as a baby, and then into adult hood. You really are a moron.

    I quote someone you admire: It is immature, and some of what you say about these people is not backed up with proof. If you are going to call someone racist then show proof of why you believe this. It is the responsible thing to do.

    (Nasty things, petards)

  230. 230
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    OOoooh, I can’t wait for that fucker, SteveoR to pop back in here and whine again.

    Yeah, somebody who doesn’t understand where al gebra came from….

  231. 231
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    It has been my experience that once you start attacking a commentor for their spelling, formatting, and punctuation, then follow up with personal jabs at my gender instead of the content of my posts, then you pretty much cannot defend any further such negative behavior.

    B!U!L!L! F!U!C!K!I!N!G! S!H!I!T!

    You fucking liar, you trollish charges have been addressed. You are now whining because you do not want to defend your charges, which have been shredded.

    Fuck you and fuck that high horse you rode in on.

  232. 232
    AJ Milne

    (Glances below editing window…)

    ‘You may use these HTML tags and attributes:…’

    Hmm. But, y’know, the examples below are very confusing. I mean, they’ve these mysterious little greater and less than signs next to ‘em… Hold on…

    (Scratches on pad a while with pencil… Eventually breaks pencil in frustration, throws on ground…)

    … it seems to be some sort of system of inequalities. But whoah… it’s a tough one.

    Me, tho’, I’m glad the Church Lady is here to ensure that proper decorum is followed.

    I mean, really, you people. The filth, in particular, is getting to be a complete load of fucking balls*.

    (*/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhxhvEXpsKc … whatinhell is going on with links, or is that just in preview?)

  233. 233
    Inaji

    then follow up with personal jabs at my gender

    Hahahahahaha, oh we have a genuine fuckwit here, folks. “Mary”, you’re the one who keeps bringing up gender – remember how it’s a big boys discussion? Hmmmm?

  234. 234
    marymurphy

    Oh did I upset the Myers sheep?

  235. 235
    Inaji

    AJ, whenever you insert a link, the preview is a major fucking mess – it posts okay, just ignore what the preview looks like.

  236. 236
    marymurphy

    Janine, I don’t seem to have the time you do.

  237. 237
    John Morales

    marymurphy:

    It has been my experience that once you start attacking a commentor for their spelling, formatting, and punctuation, then follow up with personal jabs at my gender instead of the content of my posts, then you pretty much cannot defend any further such negative behavior.

    Leaving aside your lack of cogency, your incompetence at employing a consistent grammatical person is no less than your grammar or employment of markup.

    (Care to elucidate how you figure that “attacking a commentor ” [sic] implies that such further behaviour cannot be defended?)

  238. 238
    Inaji

    Oh did I upset the Myers sheep?

    No, Cupcake. You’re being mocked. I know it’s difficult, when you most likely have a 3 digit IQ. Don’t worry, we’ll go slow for you.

  239. 239
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Does anyone have their Cupcake Bingo card out?

  240. 240
    Inaji

    The syntax is reminiscent of Christstttuttererwhatever, too.

  241. 241
    Inaji

    Janine:

    Does anyone have their Cupcake Bingo card out?

    I don’t have mine out, but if I remember right, we’ve filled quite a few squares already.

  242. 242
    SallyStrange

    Baaah-aaahh.

  243. 243
    PZ Myers

    JESUS FUCK, how do people this stupid even exist? “Marymurphy” is a liar.

    No I am not a boy. I often would tell my son that when he acted in a childish way. So, no penis here.

    I have access to a lot of information about commenter identities, and I can tell you this: “Marymurphy” is a dpitman sockpuppet. Banned again.

  244. 244
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    SallyStrange, it is about fucking time! It is your turn to be sheared. PZ needed a sniny new sweater and socks.

  245. 245
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Caine, you had the wrong troll.

    You are bad and you should feel bad.

    *snort*

  246. 246
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    Oh dear, oh dear, how shall we sleep?
    Marymurphy has called us sheep.
    With such wit how will we cope?
    With mocking rhymes, or so I hope.

  247. 247
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    Dammit.

  248. 248
    Inaji

    “Marymurphy” is a dpitman sockpuppet.

    Called it! Janine, I got ‘dpitman’ in #194.

  249. 249
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Caine, I am bad and I feel bad.

  250. 250
    Inaji

    Wow. So dpitman doesn’t have a penis, eh? That might explain why he’s so obsessed with Brownian’s.

  251. 251
    Inaji

    Janine:

    Caine, I am bad and I feel bad.

    Aaaw, c’mere, us shoops will cuddle and have a drink. I hope PZ remembers to leave memorial links on dpitman’s headstone. Wouldn’t want there to be no proof or anything.

  252. 252
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I am working on a bottle of côtes du Rhône.

  253. 253
    John Morales

    Aww… it was chewy, but PZ done took it away!

  254. 254
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Marypitman was forbidden fruit.

  255. 255
    Inaji

    John:

    Aww… it was chewy, but PZ done took it away!

    Well, if someone could get through to Chadgething, we’d have another chewtoy. I get the feeling that the fuckwit thinks Thunderdome is another site, not another thread.

  256. 256
    John Morales

    What amuses me is the way sock-puppeting trolls imagine that adopting a female ‘nym will give them some sort of leeway here.

    (Must make for a shit-load of cognitive dissonance, when they essay that tactic)

  257. 257
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Lucy Van Pelt is H.R.

    Good grief! I know I post this the other day.

    Just try to spread some cheer.

  258. 258
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    “Mary”, you’re the one who keeps bringing up gender – remember how it’s a big boys discussion? Hmmmm?

    A MRA lying??? *Full fake pseudo swoon onto the extra heavy duty fainting couch, to the applause of the Pullet Patrol for dramatic swoon*

  259. 259
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Nerd, does the Pullet Patrol™ have a Stealth Squad?

  260. 260
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    adopting a female ‘nym will give them some sort of leeway here.

    That is a backhanded compliment in a way. Having a female ‘nym on too many blogs is likely to get one spurned.

  261. 261
    LykeX

    These statements could be completely true. My accusation of childish behavior is not linking it to the proof of these things. Just as it may be true, it can also be completely false.

    So, what do you want? We should leave up any comment, even if they contain private information, just to humor some random jackass?

    Let’s try your method of explaining an issue: whatif I went a-digging and found out your name, your address and your workplace; took pictures of you, your friend and family; recorded information about your schedule (“works out at gym X every friday at 4 o’clock”) and then posted the whole thing here.
    Do you think it would be OK for PZ to delete that post? Or do you think he should leave it up as “evidence”?

    Finally, this is a private site. PZ has every right to ban anybody for any reason. He doesn’t need to provide any evidence or justification. The only limitation is when it comes to actual libel, and we’re far from that, especially since there’s no reason to think that there’s any relationship between screen name and real life name. My passport sure as hell doesn’t say “LykeX”.

    So, in summation; you’re an idiot, whining about nothing. Go away.

  262. 262
    LykeX

    I shouldn’t just leave windows open. I forget that it doesn’t automatically reload to show new comments :(

  263. 263
    Inaji

    It’s okay, LykeX, the chewtoy’s time was limited here.

  264. 264
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Nerd, does the Pullet Patrol™ have a Stealth Squad?

    You mean the Lilac Berets? The Kninja Knitters are also available for stealth operations.

  265. 265
    chigau (違う)

    jeeeez people
    How ‘stealth’ is it if you advertise?

  266. 266
    John Morales

    Another one for the “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” files.

    State police say Mr. Loughrey, 44, of Sharpsville was getting back inside his pickup truck when the 9 mm handgun went off, the bullet flying through Craig’s chest as he sat in a booster seat on the passenger side. He died instantly.
    Craig Allen Loughrey

    No charges were filed against Mr. Loughrey, and Cpl. Douglas Maxwell said he doesn’t anticipate doing so.

  267. 267
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    If you accidentally run someone over with your car and kill them, there is going to be an investigation.
    If you accidentally shoot them… oh well, shit happens. Anyone saying otherwise wants to steal our guns!!!

  268. 268
    jonmilne

    Sir Patrick Moore, legendary astronomer, has died at the age of 89, passing away peacefully in his sleep.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20657939#

    An icon may be gone, but he absolutely will never be forgotten. RIP Sir Patrick, you brilliant brilliant man.

  269. 269
    Nepenthe

    From John’s link:

    Mr. Loughrey didn’t know there was a bullet in the handgun chamber.

    There is always a bullet in the chamber and you always clear the chamber before doing anything with a handgun besides shoot it. Ugh. Some people are too dumb to live. Sadly, the universe does not mete out those consequences justly.

    IANAL, but this is pretty clearly negligent homicide (even if that’s not the exact term).

  270. 270
    Argle Bargle

    How ‘stealth’ is it if you advertise?

    Oh, quick, look over there. A sounder of boars. Or is it an exaltation of larks? I can’t be sure. Let’s get closer so we can determine what they are? Quickly! Quickly!

  271. 271
    Anthony K

    Cross-posted from B&W:

    So, over at the ‘pit, our good friend Reap is dropping docs on me:

    Speaking of the idiot brownian. I think it is hilarious that they giggle like schoolgirls because we all call browian Ian Brown. Soooooooo.. let’s do this instead…. we can call him Anthony K. I wonder how that makes him feel. It’s always better when the play-field is level and now maybe Anthony has lost that little bit of anonymity that was enabling him to be a gigantic fuckhead. Now he can be accountable for his words. Like when he told me I was too dumb to be a skeptic. You really should be more careful who you sat that shit to Anthony

    This is that dumb piece of shit Reap Paden’s idea of holding me accountable for calling him a fucking moron.

  272. 272
    Anthony K

    Cross-posted from B&W, with the link to page 670 of the pit removed (thanks to Markovbaines for the heads up):

    So, over at the ‘pit, our good friend Reap is dropping docs on me with the express intent to intimidate:

    Speaking of the idiot brownian. I think it is hilarious that they giggle like schoolgirls because we all call browian Ian Brown. Soooooooo.. let’s do this instead…. we can call him Anthony K. I wonder how that makes him feel. It’s always better when the play-field is level and now maybe Anthony has lost that little bit of anonymity that was enabling him to be a gigantic fuckhead. Now he can be accountable for his words. Like when he told me I was too dumb to be a skeptic. You really should be more careful who you sat that shit to Anthony

    Now watch all the ‘pit fuckers claim that it’s “holding me accountable”, not “trying to intimidate”—the same lying, coward fuckers who insist that PZ’s comments are directed at “anyone who disagrees with him.”

    What a miserable bunch of deluded, lying fucks.

  273. 273
    Inaji

    You really should be more careful who you sat that shit to Anthony

    Brownian, you sit to shit? Shame on you, that’s not manly…or something.

    Seriously, they are incredibly loathsome assholes, getting their giggles over doing active harm. And people continue to defend this garbage on the basis of “oh hey, it’s just talk, man.”

  274. 274
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    You really should be more careful who you sat that shit to Anthony

    I know they are fools, one more stupid and useless than another, but this sounds like a threat. That’s really not on.

    (waves at any slimers who might reproduce this as “OMG, they are shitting their pants over there”)

  275. 275
    Nepenthe

    Obviously Reap is just expressing concern for Brownian’s gastrointestinal health. Everyone knows that squatting, not sitting, is the most effective way to move one’s bowels.

  276. 276
    Inaji

    Beatrice:

    I know they are fools, one more stupid and useless than another, but this sounds like a threat. That’s really not on.

    But they aren’t creepy stalkers, no, no. *eyeroll* Remember all the fussing Hoggle did over being outed, how it would harm him and his family, do damage to his pillar of the community rep and all that? Funny how if it’s them, it’s a bad, bad thing, but hey, it’s perfectly okay for them to do to someone else!

  277. 277
    Anthony K

    But they aren’t creepy stalkers, no, no.

    Not at all. This is just Reap’s way of attempting to look intelligent. You can see him stroking his chin as he writes “Soooooooo.. let’s do this instead…. we can call him Anthony K.” as if he were some brilliant general, discussing tactics in his war room.

  278. 278
    Inaji

    Anthony:

    as if he were some brilliant general, discussing tactics in his war room.

    Mmmm. He’s a general in the same way Chadgething is one. Well, you’ll have them stymied for a while with the name change – whatever will they do now?

  279. 279
    Anthony K

    whatever will they do now?

    Escalate.

  280. 280
    Inaji

    Anthony:

    Escalate.

    *Sigh* Yes. They were doing that anyway, seems they hardly need a reason to do so. They are such a…sensitive bunch. I hope you’re keeping handy stacks of evidence.

  281. 281
    Anthony K

    Gosh, for folks who think skeptics should stick to skepticism, they sure do spend a lot of time on extracurriculars like stalking.

  282. 282
    Anthony K

    Actual reply to Reap on the Slymepit:

    Brownian’s name has been known for quite awhile from my understanding, the fact that it has never been published from the Pit should tell you something.

    Never. It never has. Until Reap of course.

  283. 283
    Inaji

    Anthony:

    the fact that it has never been published from the Pit

    Um, stupid question, I know, but how does the idiot figure this ^ ?

    I knew your name, but that’s only because you linked to a photostream of yours at one time. It’s hardly being shouted all over the ‘net.

  284. 284
    Argle Bargle

    Tell me, Brownian, er Ian, I mean Anthony, what did you do to the poor, bullied slymepitters? Did you tell them they were a bunch of misogynist jerks or something?

  285. 285
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Fuck! Ya’all just had to drag in a steaming heap of Reap!

  286. 286
    Anthony K

    Well, I’d used it on Atheist Nexus and in other places. It was hardly a well-kept secret. So that’s their excuse.

    As one ‘pitter put it in response to Reap’s post:

    Just took me about four seconds to find it. Good job I’ve got more scruples than some.

    @Rodney:

    Tell me, Brownian, er Ian, I mean Anthony, what did you do to the poor, bullied slymepitters? Did you tell them they were a bunch of misogynist jerks or something?

    I accurately described Reap Paden as dumb.

  287. 287
    Valde

    #280

    Gosh, for folks who think skeptics should stick to skepticism, they sure do spend a lot of time on extracurriculars like stalking.

    lol!

  288. 288
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I accurately described Reap Paden as dumb.

    That’s what you get for being honest on line.

  289. 289
    Valde

    so, about that misogyny thing, out in the real world:

    http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/

    The dinner bill for three friends at Chilly D’s Restaurant stung, but it wasn’t the price – printed on the top of the receipt were the words “Fat Girls”.

    “I got the bill, I was looking at bill [and] I was like, ‘Why does this receipt say ‘fat girls?’” customer Christine Duran said.

    p.s. I am always checking the news, and have a habit of sharing interesting stories that i come across. if that is something that should not happen here, please let me know!

  290. 290
    Inaji

    Janine:

    Fuck! Ya’all just had to drag in a steaming heap of Reap!

    Reap is just an anagram for his real name: Rape.

  291. 291
    nms

    How am I meant to recognize Brownian’s posts now that he’s going by some kind of pseudonym?

  292. 292
    Anthony K

    p.s. I am always checking the news, and have a habit of sharing interesting stories that i come across. if that is something that should not happen here, please let me know!

    bobo, this is exactly the thread for sharing those sorts of things.

    How am I meant to recognize Brownian’s posts now that he’s going by some kind of pseudonym?

    I’m often imitated, but never replicated.

  293. 293
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    How am I meant to recognize Brownian’s posts now that he’s going by some kind of pseudonym?

    The line.

    The brilliance.

    The snark.

    The humour.

  294. 294
    Inaji

    Speaking of anagrams, I put Anthony K into the internet anagram server, which spit these out:

    Hank Tony
    Ankh Tony
    Khan Tony
    Thank Yon
    Hanky Ton
    Hanky Not
    Ant Honky
    Tan Honky
    Yak Nth No
    Yak Nth On

    You could always use one of these, Anthony, then they could lie about how they figured out your name from that. I kind of like Ant Honky.

  295. 295
    Inaji

    Ogvorbis:

    The line.

    The brilliance.

    The snark.

    The humour.

    You left out the most important thing: the sexiness, man. The sexy sexiness.

  296. 296
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    This almost as if Black Francis/Frank Black became known as Charles Michael Kittridge Thompson IV.

  297. 297
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Tan Honky is my favorite.

  298. 298
    Anthony K

    Tan Honky is my favorite.

    I think we have a winner!

  299. 299
    Inaji

    Ophelia blogged about the Pakistani women being stalked and harassed and what does that ass Julian have to say about it? This:

    No, if these women even dare to call this cyber harassment, they will be called attention-seekers, whiners, immature. Every time a woman is attacked, and she fights back, she is the one who is vilified.

    Often times by other women.

  300. 300
    ChasCPeterson

    The line.

    The brilliance.

    The snark.

    The humour.

    The li’l photo of himself.

  301. 301
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    The li’l photo of himself.

    Nah, too obvious. When it is that obvious, I get suspicious.

  302. 302
    Rey Fox

    Aw, now you no longer have the shibboleth. How will we ever identify the slimepitters now?

  303. 303
    Anthony K

    LOL @ Chas. Well played, sirrah.

    How will we ever identify the slimepitters now?

    They’re the ones who simply disagree with us.

  304. 304
    Valde

    #298 Caine, I was just reading an article about the double standard – men are studs – women are sluts- and one particularly ‘astute’ commenter regaled us with this theory:

    A lot of women know this – and they get hurt, because they’re trying to find a decent guy, but a culture of promiscuity reduces the numbers of decent guys as men find out that they can stay in sexual immaturity and still get chicks. So non-promiscuous women come to regard promiscuous women as traitors. There is no type of enemy that attracts greater animosity than a traitor.

    yes, so the ‘slut’ label refuses to die cuz women can’t stop fightin over the menz!

  305. 305
    Inaji

    Rey:

    How will we ever identify the slimepitters now?

    By their mild, polite and reasoned dissent shall you know them.

  306. 306
    Inaji

    Bobo, quoting:

    A lot of women know this – and they get hurt, because they’re trying to find a decent guy, but a culture of promiscuity reduces the numbers of decent guys as men find out that they can stay in sexual immaturity and still get chicks. So non-promiscuous women come to regard promiscuous women as traitors. There is no type of enemy that attracts greater animosity than a traitor.

    Oh FFS. Some days, you just have to be amused at how much tortured reasoning they put into their apologetics.

  307. 307
    Rey Fox

    They’re the ones who simply disagree with us.

    Ah. So look for the smoking jacket and monocle.

  308. 308
    Argle Bargle

    A lot of women know this – and they get hurt, because they’re trying to find a decent guy, but a culture of promiscuity reduces the numbers of decent guys as men find out that they can stay in sexual immaturity and still get chicks. So non-promiscuous women come to regard promiscuous women as traitors. There is no type of enemy that attracts greater animosity than a traitor.

    “I’m so super-studly the womenz should be throwing themselves at me but somehow I can’t get laid.”

  309. 309
    vaiyt

    I had a “Nice Guy” phase once.

    It lasted as long as it took for me to meet other Nice Guys and realise they’re total assholes.

  310. 310
    PZ Myers

    Just took me about four seconds to find it.

    I don’t quite understand the logic of that. So you aren’t really exposing someone’s identity if you can discover it. I guess that means it only counts as unethical if you reveal someone’s name without being able to find it.

    How does that work?

  311. 311
    Anthony K

    I don’t quite understand the logic of that.

    It means even the Slymepitters recognize that Reap Paden, P.I.’s fantastic legwork took less effort and brains than it does to refill a salt shaker.

  312. 312
    Inaji

    PZ:

    How does that work?

    Like magnets and tides. Mysteriously.

  313. 313
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    A lot of women know this – and they get hurt, because they’re trying to find a decent guy, but a culture of promiscuity reduces the numbers of decent guys as men find out that they can stay in sexual immaturity and still get chicks.

    The decent men I’ve known have been well aware of the “permanent sexual immaturity-sex” option. Being decent, they took another path.

    ***

    I think we have a winner!

    Oh, yes.

  314. 314
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Brown…er…Anthony…er…Ian:

    I’m often imitated, but never replicated

    Yes, but what does this mean for the queue? Inquiring minds want to know!

    ****

    And I still cannot seem to preview the comments…

  315. 315
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    mary:

    consciousness razor, Caine, Fleur du mal I’m sorry, I do believe that I posted my thoughts to Mr. Myers. Since this is a open thread I will look into your replies. I would still like to address this to Myers.

    You need to get it out of your head that the only person who is going to respond to you on AN OPEN FUCKING FORUM is the blog host.
    If you don’t want anyone else to respond, send an email. And get in line. PZ get’s lots of hate mail. Yours won’t be any different. In fact, you’ll fit right in with all the other idiots.

    Oh, and you’re a massive dumbfuck.

  316. 316
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    marymurphy:

    Umm??? Yeah, okay. John, this is a big boy conversation.

    Then what the fuck is your immature, condescending, ignorant, ass doing involved.
    You proved in your first post-in the Lounge of all places (because for all that you’ve been lurking a while here, you somehow haven’t quite mastered the ability to read for comprehension)-how DEEPLY mature you are.
    Yet you’re trying to lecture PZ. On his blog.

    You’ve got guts.
    They belong in the Slymepit.

  317. 317
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    maryFUCKINGDUMBASSmurphy:

    These statements could be completely true. My accusation of childish behavior is not linking it to the proof of these things. Just as it may be true, it can also be completely false.

    Why I do believe we have our very own HYPERSKEPTIC in the ‘Dome.
    I thought they were a dying breed.

  318. 318
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Caine @214:

    Wait, christtestter was banned???

    Not being online all day every day is so totally cutting into my ability to keep up with this blog :)

  319. 319
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Tony, you are just a bit late to the party.I am going to reveal the plot twist. Marymartin was actually dpitman.

    (Sorry, I had to tease.)

  320. 320
    Inaji

    Tony:

    Wait, christtestter was banned???

    Yep. I sent an alert and PZ took a look and decided on the appropriate action. By the way, “MaryMurphy” was “dpitman”, and has already been banned.

  321. 321
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    maryFUCKINGDUMBASSmurphy:

    It has been my experience that once you start attacking a commentor for their spelling, formatting, and punctuation, then follow up with personal jabs at my gender instead of the content of my posts, then you pretty much cannot defend any further such negative behavior.

    You must have a high opinion of yourself if you think anyone here gives two shits what you have to say. You discredited yourself in your first fucking post.
    Perhaps if you had a *true* grievance with PZ and posted in a reasoned manner, you wouldn’t have been met with the response you have. As you have chosen to criticize PZ with the manner of a petulant 11 year old, the response you’ve gotten is commensurate.

  322. 322
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Tony, will you please stop arguing with a day old post.

  323. 323
    Inaji

    Janine:

    Tony, will you please stop arguing with a day old post.

    He’ll get there. He missed out on the fun because of work, so let him argue away. :D

  324. 324
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Damn.
    Getting banned in the ‘Dome.

  325. 325
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    I’m there now.
    Sorry.

  326. 326
    Inaji

    You know what was funny about dpitman getting banned? His being a skeevy asshat in two other threads wasn’t enough for a banning – PZ told him, in *huge* red letters, that he was confined to posting in Thunderdome. So what does the dope do? Morphs and starts up with the “MaryMurphy” business.

  327. 327
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    What was really funny about that act was how quickly dpitman reverted back to acting like a troll. Claiming to not having enough time to figure out how to format as am attempted insult was rather piss poor.

    (One of my grandfathers used to refer to some things as being piss poor. I have come around to really liking that term.)

  328. 328
    chigau (違う)

    I really wanted christtestter to answer my question about why someone’s choice of online ‘nym would make someone unreliable.
    *sigh*
    Now I’ll never know.

  329. 329
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    He had weeks to answer that, chigau. He was never going to do so. Nothing was lost.

  330. 330
    chigau (違う)

    butbutbut
    Janine
    I did so want to ask about xis own ‘nym.
    christtestter
    christ testter
    christ tester
    christ teste
    I mean, waht?

  331. 331
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    I’m disappointed that I have to be in the Queue for Ghey Secks with Anthony K., but I guess I’ve waited this long…

    On a serious note, I really don’t understand the pit people sometimes.

  332. 332
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    [Patrick Moore]

    :’(

    *clenched tentacle salute*

    @ chigau

    christ‘s testes?

    why someone’s choice of online ‘nym would make someone unreliable.

    The tardigrade’s Chinese ‘nym does not exactly instill confidence.

    @
    Mattir

    I’m disappointed that I have to be in the Queue for Ghey Secks with Anthony K., but I guess I’ve waited this long…

    {theophontes checks ticket carefully.}

    “Valid for a single frolic with Ian Brown.”

    Oh noze!!!

  333. 333
    chigau (違う)

    theophontes
    I have alot (really alot) of Canadian Tire Bucks,
    does that get us upqueueue for browntony?

  334. 334
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau

    {tap tap, tappity tap}

    Canadian Tire Bucks.

    Holy Heffer, that is cool. I think it time that the Politburo starts to issue its own currency. Then we can all beRICH ™ !!!

    In Hong Kong, almost all the bank notes are issued by private banks (the guBmint only issues plastic HK$10 notes of late). There are many banks … and lots of different types of banknotes.

  335. 335
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    upqueueue

    The local term is “VIP”. In English and in Putonghua. You want to sell anything, just stick a “VIP” sticker on it and you are in business.

    When we start printing our Thunderdome Drachmas, we’ll buy our way onto the Ghey Secks VIP Queue.

  336. 336
  337. 337
    Nick Gotts

    I really wanted christtestter to answer my question about why someone’s choice of online ‘nym would make someone unreliable. – chigau

    Well it’s been noted several times here that anyone who includes “rational” or “skeptic” or “truth”* in their nym is almost certainly an irrational, credulous liar.

    *Truthmachine being an exception – although I did think his nym indicated a rather swollen ego.

  338. 338
    strange gods before me ॐ

    :(

  339. 339
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    rational skeptic seeking truth for friendship, possibly more

    Ha ha

    *wipes tear*

  340. 340
    strange gods before me ॐ

    :)

  341. 341
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Now if only I could fit a reference to Diogenes in there somewhere.

  342. 342
    John Morales

    ॐ, heh.

  343. 343
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Oh, I saw. That’s probably why I had him on my mind.

  344. 344
    John Morales

    Sometimes, I like being able to make things more obvious to vision-impaired people than to us ordinary lugs.

  345. 345
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    I’ll respond more later. Just one thing to note :

    I may and do disagree with many commenters here but y’know what I’m NOT a bad person and I do have a lot that’s positive to contribute here. Don’t let the strawpeople that some have nasty asswipes here have constructed fool ya.

  346. 346
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ 172. Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

    It’s worth noting that StevoR’s question about the alternative to the British Empire is quite easily answered, at least with respect to Australia. British settlement did not begin until 1804, ..

    Bzzt. Major history FAIL on your part there Nick Gotts. The First Fleet arrived and established the first British Colony in 1788. British colonies were well established by 1804.

    See :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Fleet

    Or any good history text on the subject.

    Dunno where you got 1804 from but big error there. Not unexpected from you of course.

    @ 176. consciousness razor :

    We’re just supposed to forget about the influences from Greeks, Romans, Persians, Arabs, Africans, Asians of all sorts

    Nope – I never said that. Learn to read for comprehension next time’ k?.

    Also Greeks & Romans are included under Westerners y’know right?

    @ 170. Caine, Fleur du mal :

    My brain choked to a halt early – he thinks science is a result of Western culture? Unholy cow. I guess history, much like everything else, eludes StevoR.

    Shit you are ignorant Caine aren’t you? Yes. Western culture has produced the scientific method which was invented or discovered if you prefer by Sir Francis Bacon in 1620. The early Greeks – also Westerners had other more philosophical but essentially proto-scientific methodologies and ideas – and were Westerners. The inventors of the telescope, figures like Galileo Galilei, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe and Charles Darwin were of course Westerners. Chinese and Arabs and others did make some very useful and good observations of things like supernovae, eclipses and comets but did not understand these through the scientific method but instead believed in superstitions like astrology.

    More replies to come – maybe tomorrow, maybe earlier, when I have time and energy and have ready.

  347. 347
    Inaji

    I’m NOT a bad person and I do have a lot that’s positive to contribute here.

    You are a horrible person and I’m not the least bit interested in those moments when you decide to play pretend as a decent human being. You aren’t fooling anyone here.

  348. 348
    Inaji

    SG, any thoughts on when we’ll have our killfiles back?

  349. 349
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    StevoR,

    Could you please please please fuck off?

    You despise non-Westerners and consider any contribution made by them (near-)worthless. Totally not biased, that. Just fuck off already. I don’t care about your replies, they are obviously going to consist of more hate, bigotry and general stupidity.

    Spare us, please. I’m begging you. Stop commenting here. Fuck off already.

  350. 350
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    SG, any thoughts on when we’ll have our killfiles back?

    Seconded.

  351. 351
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I may and do disagree with many commenters here but y’know what I’m NOT a bad person and I do have a lot that’s positive to contribute here.

    You have nothing but bigotry to contribute, a contribution we don’t want. You have nothing else to offer us. What a stupid fuckwitted bigot.

  352. 352
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    SG, any thoughts on when we’ll have our killfiles back?

    Thirded. Trash can for the trash…

  353. 353
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ 181. Caine, Fleur du mal

    You forget, Tony, StevoR finds Thunderdome, with it’s lack of an authoritative rule, to be ooga booga scary.

    Not scary so much as just a disgusting cesspit of nasty bullies who have no valid arguments to offer only abuse, strawpeople and their own revolting lies and bile.

    I’ve been bullied in my life enough not to seek out any more of it, thankyou. )(In advance and probably in vain.)

    Also shame on you and PZ for allowing a thread so transparently dedicated for bullying those you disagree with like this to go on. But then I guess some of you nastier and stupider commenters do find it hard to hold your own when limited to a civilised, reasoned discourse where insults and casting aspersions are held out of bounds.

    There’ s a lot I like about this blog and a lot I agree with but then there’es also some really batshit leftwingnuts who I can’t stand and who seem totally detached from reality as I see it.

    I just hope maybe, just maybe, I can get some of them and some of the lurkers to actually think and consider a few different points of view that are a bit more realistic.

    Meself? I was madly far left wing once, eventually realised how wrong (& anti-Semitic) I’d been. I probably overcompensated for a while. My views have indeed evolved over time and I’m willing to admit that I’m wrong if and when I am. Yeah, I’m a fucked up all too oft overtired, drunk, fucked up human. Yeah, its possible I’m wrong, always. Same as everybody fucken else. You guys realise that too right?

    But know what? That doesn’t make me a bad person and I wouldn’t fucken hurt or discriminate against anyone. I have my own opinions on things but that doesn’t mean I mistreat or judge people on their skin colour and I’d give up my seat on the train for an African-Australian or Muslim Australian just the same as I’d do for a Caucasian-Australian.

    Politically, well neither leftwing nor rightwing has all the answers or is right on everything. Left gets some right and so does the rightwing and vice versa. All up as I’ve said before I probably agree with the (tyranny of the) majority position here about 80 % to 20%.

    I’m a feminist, an environmentalist, a secularist, an anti-racist and also pro-space exploration, pro-technology and science incl. nuclear and pro-USA, pro-West and pro-Humanity in general. I judge on the evidence not the ideology. On the individual not the “race” which is bullshit anyway , no such thing as fucken race and we’re all the third species of chimpanzee after bonobos. I’m also being fucking appallingly misjudged by some folks here wot dunno how to read!

    Oh & its PZ’s blog and he controls what happens to me, not my haters here. Pretty sure I’ve broken no laws here and hope to keep making positive contributions of various things on various issues because whilst I might hate some of the commenters, I do love this blog and wish to make it better not worse by my presence.

  354. 354
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @348 & 350. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls & Beatrice :

    You are wrong – and the answer is no.

  355. 355
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    You despise non-Westerners

    Not at all. I pity them.

    I believe in the values of equality, liberty, fraternity.

    I believe in human rights, in feminism, in looking after the environment and esp. fighting Global Overheating. In the pursuit of happiness and a better quality of life for all.

    You don’t?

    Don’t you ever even think you might have been wrong and misjudging me?

    Because that is the reality.

  356. 356
    Nick Gotts

    StevoR is right that British settlement began in 1788, not 1804. This does not, of course, make any difference to my main point: that one alternative to British settlement and annexation was no settlement and annexation by anyone, enforced by the British Navy.

  357. 357
    nms

    I judge on the evidence not the ideology.

    Well, this is plainly false.

  358. 358
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @158. anteprepro :

    Oh wow. StevoR is even worse than I thought. And here I thought it was just heavy compartmentalization when really he’s just full-on wingnut.

    Nope. I’m a pragmatic realist not a wingnut. Also why do you say that, calling me name sand not addressing the actual substance of what I’ve said? Perhaps deep down you realise I am correct and you cannot argue only name-call?

  359. 359
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    SteveR

    Did you say the things attributed to you in #153?

    Do you still stand by them?

  360. 360
    AshPlant

    I do have a lot that’s positive to contribute here.

    You’re right; we DO need a continuous infusion of jokes about fucking daisy cutter bombs being the best solution. They’re as vital as coffee.

  361. 361
    Nick Gotts

    Western culture has produced the scientific method which was invented or discovered if you prefer by Sir Francis Bacon in 1620. – StevoR

    Bzzt! Major history fail by StevoR there: Ibn al-Haytham. Not unexpected from him of course.

  362. 362
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Nick Gotts,

    But who would have brought civilization to the savages then? Surely they were much better off once the settlers came to murder them, steal their land and their children.

  363. 363
    LykeX

    Dunno where you got 1804 from but big error there. Not unexpected from you of course.

    Umm, in your haste to correct the year, it seems you forgot to address the actual point, namely:

    So the ethical alternative to settlement and annexation was to declare that Britain regarded Australia as belonging to its current inhabitants, would not settle or annex any part of it, and would prevent any other power doing so.

    How is that invalidated by correcting the year?

    Western culture has produced the scientific method which was invented or discovered if you prefer by Sir Francis Bacon in 1620

    And it just popped right out of the blue with no precursors, too.

    Chinese and Arabs and others did make some very useful and good observations of things like supernovae, eclipses and comets but did not understand these through the scientific method but instead believed in superstitions like astrology.

    You’re drawing up a massive caricature, here. Muslims did a lot of work with regard to the scientific method, especially in emphasizing experimentation over simple observation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_scientific_method#Ibn_al-Haytham
    Yes, they had their fair bit of superstition, but so did the west, so I’m not sure what the point of that is. Hell, we have people in the west to this day who explain events by appealing to angels and demons, so that whole line is just a red herring.

    Finally, much of what we have from the Greeks, we got through the Muslim world. While European scribes were busy copying hymnals, Muslims were copying, commenting on and improving on Aristotle. If they hadn’t preserved those text, who knows what would have been lost.
    Thanks to those Muslims scholars, European scientists weren’t starting from scratch, but had a long tradition to draw on; a tradition that not only preserved Greek knowledge, but expanded upon it.

    You might be able to defend the idea that the precise modern version of the scientific method was produced by western culture (I’m not even sure if that’s true, but let’s just say it is), but it would be simply dishonest to ignore all the work that lead up to it.

  364. 364
    nms

    Don’t you ever even think you might have been wrong and misjudging me?

    Tell us more about hyphenated-Americans, StevoR.

    Perhaps deep down you realise I am correct and you cannot argue only name-call?

    Hope springs eternal.

  365. 365
    Nick Gotts

    I believe in the values of equality, liberty, fraternity. – StevoR

    And, of course, nuking Muslims.

  366. 366
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Calling Australian Aboriginal people savages was sarcasm, of course. Although, I feel dirty writing it even in the attempt to mock StevoR.

  367. 367
    Nick Gotts

    I just hope maybe, just maybe, I can get some of them and some of the lurkers to actually think and consider a few different points of view that are a bit more realistic. – StevoR

    You mean like believing that Newt Gingrich’s election would magically have produced a moonbase?

  368. 368
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @355.Nick Gotts (formerly KG) :

    Thankyou.

    Of course, being realistic you’re suggested alternative was never going to happen. Human nature and thinking of the time being what it was / is. The world i(& our past history) is as it is not as we’d wish it to be.

    What happened to the Indigenous First Australians was terrible and wrong I agree. I also think we should do what we can now to make amends and recognise their sufferings. I live on Kaurna* land and I appreciate that but cannot change the past.

    A pity I agree.

    @356. nms : Is it? Your supporting evidence for that proposition would be ..what then?

    &&&&&

    * See :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaurna_people

    I’ve seen the Fountain of Tears at what used to be Colebrook house, I don’t fully appreciate but *try* to appreciate what happened to them. Yes, it sucks badly (massive understatement)and I am torn by this but what can I do?

  369. 369
    Inaji

    a disgusting cesspit

    Oh, lord love a duck, then Get. The. Fuck. Out. Go, shoo, scat, there’s a whole wide internet out there awaiting your amazing contributions of ass-pulled bigotry, Cupcake.

    It’s not wanted here. Nor are you.

  370. 370
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    The trashy fuckwitted asshole bigot gets facts wrong when it goes against its bigotry. News at eleven.
    As I said, you have nothing whatsoever to offer this community other than arrogant stupidity.

  371. 371
    Nick Gotts

    y’know what I’m NOT a bad person – StevoR

    I’m sure any genocidal maniac you care to name would have provided people with exactly the same assurance.

  372. 372
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    StevoR,

    Go away.

  373. 373
    nms

    nms : Is it? Your supporting evidence for that proposition would be ..what then

    One of your more hilarious commenting escapades springs to mind, which incidentally KG also just mentioned.

    I wouldn’t have thought that “pro-moon” would be an ideology, but there you go.

  374. 374
    Nick Gotts

    Of course, being realistic you’re suggested alternative was never going to happen. Human nature and thinking of the time being what it was / is. The world i(& our past history) is as it is not as we’d wish it to be. – StevoR

    So what? It was an alternative, within the capabilities of those making the decisions, and one you ignored in your apologia for British imperialism.

  375. 375
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @363. nms : Yes, hope does spring eternal. I’m human, I’m fallible, I’m willing to be convinced if the evidence is there. As for hyphenated Americans, dunno really.

    @365. Beatrice : Did I *ever* call them savages? Really? Because, no I don’t think so. Not that exactly.

    @366. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) :

    You mean like believing that Newt Gingrich’s election would magically have produced a moonbase?

    Imagine you are in a flooded river being swept downstream to your death. Imagine there is one person throwing you a rope to grab onto to save your life. You don’t like this person. You know he is an ugly, cruel person who has committed many evils. But. You either grab this rope or you die. Do you grab the rop and try to save save everything or commit yourself to drowning out of spite and mistrust? That’s analogous to how I felt then.

    Gingrich would’ve been an awful president. I hated having to support him. On the moonbase – on human expansion and future survival I felt I had no choice. Moot question now anyway. Hey, could’ve been worse, could’ve been Rick Perry or Santorum making that vital all-important pro-space exploration offer.

    Really, really wish it had been Obama saying what Gingrich said in Newt<i(on)'s only good speech.

    Also given a choice between Obama and Mittens – I’d have gone Obama in a heartbeat – not that I could voted in the US anyhow.

    &&&

    “Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics – and you’ll get ten different answers. But there’s one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years, or a thousand years, or a million years, eventually our sun will grow cold, and go out. When that happens, it won’t just take us, it’ll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tsu, Einstein, Maruputo, Buddy Holly, Aristophanes – all of this. All of this was for nothing, unless we go to the stars.”

    - Commander Sinclair, Babylon 5, Season 1, Episode 4 “Infection”

  376. 376
    Pteryxx

    >You despise non-Westerners

    Not at all. I pity them.

    *hurk*

  377. 377
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    Hey Caine, who runs this blog again? You or PZ?

  378. 378
    Inaji

    Pteryxx:

    *hurk*

    Move over, Pteryxx, there’s going to be a lot of traffic in the vomitorium.

  379. 379
    AshPlant

    Hey Caine, who runs this blog again? You or PZ?

    Um, do you really want PZ to step in and arbitrate? He’s already slapped you down once that I know of.

  380. 380
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Not at all. I pity them.

    I missed that.

    StevoR,

    You are a piece of shit.

    —-

    If enough of us ask, can one of the monitors send PZ an email about StevoR?
    I know that Thunderdome is (nearly) unmoderated, but StevoR har really surpassed quite a number of haters that have been banned in the past.

  381. 381
    nms

    Gingrich would’ve been an awful president. I hated having to support him. On the moonbase – on human expansion and future survival I felt I had no choice.

    Gosh, isn’t it a difficult situation when evidence and ideology (and Babylon 5) collide.

    Does StevoR put anyone else in mind of a Very Serious Person?

  382. 382
    Nick Gotts

    what can I do? – StevoR

    Oh, lets see… stop stereotyping and demonizing Muslims, apologise for your racist slurs against Obama and African-Americans in general as quoted @153 above, learn what “cultural relativism” means…

  383. 383
    Inaji

    Hey Caine, who runs this blog again? You or PZ?

    What’s the matter, Cupcake? Seems to me if an intelligent person found a place to be a cesspit, they’d leave. Just trying to help you along, sweetpea, seeing as you tend to take a long time to get a clue.

    After all, you’d never find me at the slymepit, because I do think it’s a cesspit. Then again, I have a fair amount of brain cells and I’m honest.

    So, have a protip: Recognise when you aren’t wanted. Go the fuck away. Go to the moon. Please.

  384. 384
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @375. Pteryxx :

    *hurk*

    What’s that mean?

    I pity them because they don’t have the opportunuities and advantages we do (incl. and esp. women and the non-hetereonormative) because of our priviledged Western lifestyles and opportunities. That wrong of me somehow? Stuffed if I can figure out how.

    No I’m not a cultural relativist.

    Not aware that’s a crime. Is it? Or is a culture that exploits women, has, say, slavery or human sacrifice equal to one that, say, y’know doesn’t?

  385. 385
    Inaji

    Beatrice, I’ll pass your post on to PZ.

  386. 386
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @382. aine, Fleur du mal :

    Go to the moon. Please.

    I wish I could Caine, I really wish wish I could.

    As for intelligent, meh. Never claimed to be that if memory serves. Stubborn, and fucked up sure.

    If it helps I’m heading to bed now~ish. Too drunk and tired. Will consider and reply to other comments later.

  387. 387
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    that’s Caine sorry. Obviously.

  388. 388
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Oh, thanks, Caine.

  389. 389
    Inaji

    No problem, Beatrice. All done and sent.

  390. 390
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @379. Beatrice:

    You are a piece of shit.

    See that’s be the bullying name calling rather than the actual argument.

    (Looks at hands, arms, legs, feet, sniffs, rechecks.) Nope. I’m a carbon based, mostly water (& okay, quite a bit of beer human being.

    Haters? No. Not so much I think. I don’t hate you. Dislike and think you’re wrong sure but not hate.

    Done nothing to deserve banning in my view. PZ gets final say not you.

  391. 391
    Nick Gotts

    StevoR@374,

    Srsly? You’re quoting a piece of adolescent cod-philosophy from an SF series as a justification for supporting a lying scumbag like Gingrich?

    But there’s one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years, or a thousand years, or a million years, eventually our sun will grow cold, and go out.

    Er, no, it isn’t. The scientific consensus is that the sun will become too hot for life on Earth to be sustainable (unless some kind of space shield is set up I suppose) in somewhere upwards of 500 million years. Not exactly our most pressing problem. Moreover, even if our descendants survive this, the current majority view among cosmologists is that most of the visible universe will have disappeared from view in about 100 billion years due to the accelerating expansion of the universe, and what’s left will eventually, and inevitably, become unable to support life.

    When that happens, it won’t just take us, it’ll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tsu, Einstein, Maruputo, Buddy Holly, Aristophanes – all of this. All of this was for nothing, unless we go to the stars.

    That’s exactly parallel to, and exactly as stupid as, the common theist trope that if we don’t live forever, everything is pointless.

  392. 392
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I’m disappointed that I have to be in the Queue for Ghey Secks with Anthony K., but I guess I’ve waited this long…

    Damnit!

    I finally got up the gumption to get in the Brownian line. And now there is no one in front of me. Because they’re all in the Anthony K. line.

    And I can no longer use the ‘ball of Brownian Motion’ semidemijoke.

    You want to sell anything, just stick a “VIP” sticker on it and you are in business.

    In my business, a VIP is a ‘Volunteer-In-Parks.’ Hmmm.

    Now if only I could fit a reference to Diogenes in there somewhere.

    I’ve always wondered about that. Diogenes was looking for one good man. The Marines used to look for a few good men. And found them. Was Diogenes just too picky? Or are humanity getting more honester?

    I may and do disagree with many commenters here but y’know what I’m NOT a bad person and I do have a lot that’s positive to contribute here.

    There are some conversations to which you have had a great deal to add. But, like all of us, you do have a blind spot. You make yours quite a bit more visible, though.

    I have no idea if you are a good person or not. Based on your writings regarding Islam (and other non-Western societies), you are not someone I would want to meet in meatspace.

    You despise non-Westerners

    Not at all. I pity them

    And we have a perfect example right there.

    So, StevoR, do you still favour a preventive war against Iran? With nuclear weapons?

  393. 393
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @PZ Myers : I respect you and like this blog.

    I’m happy to abide by your judgement.

    Please let me stay and keep contributing. I’ll try to do so positively & follow what conditions you set.

  394. 394
    Inaji

    Nick:

    That’s exactly parallel to, and exactly as stupid as, the common theist trope that if we don’t live forever, everything is pointless.

    Yabbut, that’s Stevo’s idear of heaven, man.

    I liked B5 as much as the next person, but I get the distinct feeling that the bulk of it went a sailing far over Stevo’s head.

  395. 395
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ 391. Ogvorbis:300-year-old Wood Elf :

    So, StevoR, do you still favour a preventive war against Iran? With nuclear weapons?

    I don’t know and it is not my decision to make.

  396. 396
    Inaji

    :falls over laughing:

    I’m okay. Really. Truly.

  397. 397
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    StevoR

    Don’t act more stupid than we already know you are. It’s perfectly obvious I wasn’t talking about you hating me.

  398. 398
    Inaji

    I am seriously sleep deprived. I should start working, but Imma try to nap a while. Have fun with the resident bigot.

  399. 399
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    PS. I don’t agree with all my own past statements and have since apologised for (& clarified) some of them too.

  400. 400
    broboxley OT

    Or is a culture that exploits women, has, say, slavery or human sacrifice equal to one that, say, y’know doesn’t?

    oh, ya hadda go there. Where do ya live sonny?

  401. 401
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I don’t know and it is not my decision to make.

    So you have moved from advocating a war with Iran (which, as a side effect, would cause millions of civilian deaths, even in a best-case scenario) to being not sure if you really want the war or not. Wonderful. So you are not about killing millions of civilians to eradicate a minor annoyance (yes, even an Iran with nuclear weapons would be, at best, a minor annoyance). You really are a piece of work, y’know?

  402. 402
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    that should be ‘at worst, a minor annoyance). Sorry.

  403. 403
    chigau (違う)

    StevoR #352

    I have my own opinions on things but that doesn’t mean I mistreat or judge people on their skin colour and I’d give up my seat on the train for an African-Australian or Muslim Australian just the same as I’d do for a Caucasian-Australian.

  404. 404
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    chigau,

    He’d even let them use his bathroom!

    Ok, where does that come from? I got the meme, but I wasn’t here yet at its nascence. A racist politician said that he would let a black person use his bathroom, or something like that..?

  405. 405
  406. 406
    Weed(less) Monkey

    StevoR

    PS. I don’t agree with all my own past statements and have since apologised for (& clarified) some of them too.

    No, you have not apologised. You have claimed to be sorry for being offensive, not for what you have said.

    Go talk to Graeme Bird.

  407. 407
    Amphiox

    Isn’t it telling that StevoR should so boldly point to Francis Bacon and the classical Greeks/Romans as the ones responsible for the development of the modern scientific method, but completely ignores the OTHER vital link in that chain, ie the Islamic scholars who preserved, extended and expanded (yeah they did more than just copy stuff, you know?) the classical texts and enabled their transition back to Europe where they could then be incorporated into the youthful education of people like Francis Bacon, without which the poor man would have had about as much chance of successfully developing the scientific method as an ice cube in hell?

    Because Muslims just don’t register in StevoR’s view of the world.

  408. 408
    md

    A thoughtful post on what religion can and sometimes does provide to the poor.

    I hope some of you will have a read and argue about it. The topic, that is, not the name of the magazine or their position on immigration or some such, but the topic presented. Its Pharyngula material, from the other side. I found it provocative, particularly Kaplan’s description and analysis of Turkish slums, as a 99% atheist myself, because I don’t see the advance of atheism and rational thinking in any way replacing the functionality of religion in this example, as is often advance that it can here and throughout the rational reality based community. Can anyone make the argument that it can?

  409. 409
    TonyJ

    this is a test

  410. 410
    md

    whoop — ‘advance’ should read ‘advanced’

  411. 411
    LykeX

    @md
    I’m not quite sure what argument you’re trying to make. Skimming through the article, I see him attributing all sorts of nice things to religion without the slightest evidence that it’s actually responsible. E.g.

    Alcohol is easy to obtain in Turkey, a secular state where 99 percent of the population is Muslim. Yet there is little problem of alcoholism. Crime against persons is infinitesimal. Poverty and illiteracy are watered-down versions of what obtains in Algeria and Egypt (to say nothing of West Africa), making it that much harder for religious extremists to gain a foothold.

    Note that those two countries, Algeria and Egypt, also both have 90+ percent Muslims. So, why are they not the same wonderful paradise countries? Whatever make Turkey different, it’s not religion.

    Furthermore, I seriously question some of the attributions. Apparently, crime used to be a much bigger problem in the 80s. Yet, I think they were still Muslim back then.
    Also, note the distinction “crime against persons“. That’s significant because Turkey has some issue with drug smuggling, forming a bridge into Europe. I guess religion doesn’t help with that.

    Finally, I notice that all of this has to do with enduring poverty, not eliminating it. Personally, I’d much prefer not being poor to being poor and dealing with it gracefully.

    So, right off the bat, I have to say I’m not impressed. I’d like to know why you are.

  412. 412
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    md:

    So religion helps people cope with being poor? Christianity has made a cult of being poor for 1800 years. Hermits, monks, telling the peasants that they will get theirs in the afterlife. Here in the US, much of Christianity has embraced, wholeheartedly, the right-wing economic policies that helped to close down the ceramics factories of Western Pennsylvania, that make it far more profitable to import manufactured goods from third world countries with no unions, no minimum wage, no OSHA, and even less hope. Right wing religious groups even go so far as to blame the poor for their economic conditions via the execrable Prosperity Gospel — the poor don’t accept Jesus in the right way so God does not reward them with prosperity. Thank you, no. I’ll stick with secular groups working for economic opportunity, sustainable industry and agriculture and business, and equal rights for all human beings.

  413. 413
    broboxley OT

    md gotta watch those rice christians. they will turn on you in a heartbeat once you run out of rice

  414. 414
    LykeX

    One other little thing that bugged me. It’s not relevant to the argument, but…

    “We’re giving away free stuff!” he yelled. “EVEN JESUS!”

    “WHO WANTS AN IPOD?”

    That’s just disgusting and manipulative, yet the author seems to highlight it as something positive.

    Even putting on my religious hat, I don’t understand that. In fact, putting on my religious hat makes it even worse. If I was still a believer, I’d call this “pastor” a servant of Satan. This commercialization of the sacred offends my atrophied religious sensibilities.

  415. 415
    md

    —I’d like to know why you are.

    The description of the Turkish slum if taken at face value, impresses me, yes, because I believe religion isn’t going away anytime soon in the Islamic world. With regard to our own rising working class poverty, yes id prefer to see order over dysfunction. Can religion contribute to that?

    I dont think im giving into hyperbole when I say the rationalist movement believes that the history-long example of man and his irrational, religious thinking can be overcome by simply replacing it with rational thought. I just don’t believe it likely, therefore I think its important to watch what people actually do. Turkey is a geopolitically important country, we should try to understand them as best we can. Not all irrational thinking is the same.

    Ogvorbis — regarding Tabi’s story, do you think she’d have been better off had she skipped church, and started reading Camus’s Myth of Sisyphus (Im a fan, but…), found some local lad to take out to the shed for a shag (gov pays for birth-control, and if I get pregnant, my children’s well being), and started smoking cannabis (its legal in two states now, dontcha know)? We are always going to have relative poverty, always (though objective conditions will often rise). What is best for the poor to believe? Inner fortitude matters. Do you think Tabi wants to discuss sustainable agriculture practices, or whether trans-genders should be able to enter both sets of public bathrooms? Which is not to say those arent things worth worrying about, but that she’s worried primarily about her own life and travails, and should be. How should she approach it?

  416. 416
    md

    —“We’re giving away free stuff!” he yelled. “EVEN JESUS!”

    “WHO WANTS AN IPOD?”

    That’s just disgusting and manipulative, yet the author seems to highlight it as something positive.—

    hmmm, the author of the blogpost most definitely does not. The post story, maybe so. But, if you’re interested, the Pastor is writing into the comment stream over there and the blogger questioned him on that.

  417. 417
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Dont’cha think that the poor should be given stories of a reward after this life in exchange for obedience to authority in this life?

  418. 418
    broboxley OT

    md believes that submitting to authority is the answer
    I don’t

  419. 419
    LykeX

    Can religion contribute to that?

    Irrelevant. The question is, can religion uniquely contribute to that? Can religion provide some benefit that no secular means can do? If you think so, I’d love to hear an example. It would be the first.

    Remember, anything that has to do with community, education, ethics or tradition can be done by secular means.

    I dont think im giving into hyperbole when I say the rationalist movement believes that the history-long example of man and his irrational, religious thinking can be overcome by simply replacing it with rational thought. I just don’t believe it likely…

    So, are you arguing that religion can’t be gotten rid of or that it shouldn’t be gotten rid of?

    I’m wondering if we’re talking past each other here. Would I prefer a helpful, beneficial religion to fanaticism? Of course. Does that mean that helpful, beneficial religion is better than helpful, beneficial secularism? Not in a million years.

  420. 420
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Please let me stay and keep contributing.

    Contribute what? Irrationality, bigotry and demented reasoning. The following is cogent reasons for PZ to let you stay:
    .
    ,
    ,
    ,
    ,
    ,
    ,
    ,
    *Crickets chirring*

  421. 421
    Nick Gotts

    I don’t see the advance of atheism and rational thinking in any way replacing the functionality of religion in this example, as is often advance that it can here and throughout the rational reality based community. Can anyone make the argument that it can? – md

    Actually, no it’s not often advanced here, where most of the regulars recognise that atheism alone is not enough – and indeed, that many atheists are right-wing shits. What reduces crime and other social pathologies is not religion as such, but social solidarity: the perception that one is part of a social formation within which one is valued, and from which support is available. This may be local, as in the Turkish slum example (assuming it’s honestly reported), or wider. It is the most religious parts of the USA that have higher levels of practically all social pathologies; while reducing income inequality, which encourages social solidarity, correlates with lower levels of these pathologies: abundant evidence of this is available here. Lower income inequality also appears to correlate with lower levels of religiosity.

  422. 422
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Nerd,

    You forgot

    ,

    ,

    and

    ,

  423. 423
    md

    Uniquely, yes, you are right LykeX, that is the proper question. I don’t know that answer, but do stories an examples like this give you any pause at all?

    You point out that community, education and all the rest can be done by secular means. Lets agree for now it can be done (im not so sure about ‘community and tradition’). Is it being done? Do people want it done? Can you provide examples of peoples, once poor and religious, transformed by rationalist thought and materially and spiritually (in the broad, emotional sense of the word) prosperous?

    So, are you arguing that religion can’t be gotten rid of or that it shouldn’t be gotten rid of?

    Answer, I dont know. Can it be gotten rid of? How? Blogpost by aetheist blogpost, sure. Rounding up the religious, burning their holy books, tearing down their holy places, and forcibly educating rational belief, of course not. Though if the Soviet Union and Mao’s China are any example, that may be the only effective way. Not that you were suggesting such a thing.

    Should it? Pragmatically, based on the history of the last century, no I don’t we should much try. I think we ought to be quite skeptical of mass movements aimed at converting people to some set of beliefs, whatever they might be. In principle I do think we’d be better off, but Im always left with a question. If so many people are religious, does it have some value, some important function to humans that I dont’ understand? The post I shared brought me back to that.

  424. 424
    Nick Gotts

    We are always going to have relative poverty, always – md

    Possibly so (although “always” is a very long time), but the degree of relative poverty is most certainly alterable by policy, and the evidence is overwhelming that reducing it is beneficial.

  425. 425
    vaiyt

    By all means keep arguing, StevoR. Your ilk can only give further proof of how immoral you are when allowed to speak.

    Yes. Western culture has produced the scientific method which was invented or discovered if you prefer by Sir Francis Bacon in 1620.

    “…which he took entirely out of his White Western ass, with no precursors and no competition whatsoever!”

    The early Greeks – also Westerners had other more philosophical but essentially proto-scientific methodologies and ideas – and were Westerners. The inventors of the telescope, figures like Galileo Galilei, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe and Charles Darwin were of course Westerners. Chinese and Arabs and others did make some very useful and good observations of things like supernovae, eclipses and comets but did not understand these through the scientific method but instead believed in superstitions like astrology.

    “Yeah, these other non-white guys did stuff but they weren’t important because they’re stupid and WHITE MAN BEST”

    I’m a feminist, an environmentalist, a secularist, an anti-racist

    You can say that until you’re blue in the face, that doesn’t make it true.

    and also pro-space exploration, pro-technology and science incl. nuclear

    Of course you’re pro-nuclear technology! We need it to nuke Mordor the Middle East?

    and pro-USA, pro-West

    “…which take preference over everything else.”

    and pro-Humanity in general.

    “…unless they’re Arabs.”

    I judge on the evidence not the ideology.

    “My ideology is the only one that is rational!”

    On the individual not the “race”

    “…unless they’re Arabs.”

  426. 426
    Nick Gotts

    Can you provide examples of peoples, once poor and religious, transformed by rationalist thought and materially and spiritually (in the broad, emotional sense of the word) prosperous? – md

    Western Europe – although rationalist thought was only part of it, and may be more an effect of the welfare state than a cause.

  427. 427
    Nick Gotts

    Answer, I dont know. Can it be gotten rid of? How?

    An effective welfare state. The decline of religion in western Europe shows no sign of ending, or even slowing down. The US religious right appear to understand the connection well enough.

  428. 428
    Nick Gotts

    If so many people are religious, does it have some value, some important function to humans that I dont’ understand? – md

    If so many people get cancer/dementia/atherosclerosis, does it have some value, some important function to humans that I dont’ understand?

  429. 429
  430. 430
    Nepenthe

    Okay, Preview told me that my previous post was going to come out looking like a dog’s breakfast and it looks fine. Why is the computer lying to me?

  431. 431
    md

    What reduces crime and other social pathologies is not religion as such, but social solidarity: the perception that one is part of a social formation within which one is valued, and from which support is available

    Nick, Im an American, forgive me, but to take an example with which im familiar, crime in New York City has decreased dramatically in the last 2 decades.

    What you are arguing here seems congruous with Kaplans observations on Turkish slums, and yet, its hard for me to believe social solidarity and valuable social formation has increased in NYC in the recent past. Do you? Have evidence for it? The equality trust link you provided is broken, prob as a result of the new website. Googling that site and skimming the topics I see “Imprisonment” as one. And its starts out with an interesting claim

    “In the UK, despite falling crime rates, imprisonment rates have been climbing steadily for decades…”

    Well, isn’t it plausible that crimes rates are falling because imprisonment rates have climbed? Isn’t that a plausible explanation for NYC, also? It would mean relatively few people commit a high percentage of crime, and when they are imprisoned, crime falls. Tell me where i’ve got it wrong.

  432. 432
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Nepenthe, Preview seems to behave very strangely with how it displays links now. It’s worse than useless when it comes to a post containing a link. No way to tell what’s broken and what isn’t.

  433. 433
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Nick, Im an American, forgive me, but to take an example with which im familiar, crime in New York City has decreased dramatically in the last 2 decades.

    Gee, you think it supports your fukckwittery? It refutes it, as US of A is becoming less religious.

    Religious folks don’t read past abstracts on evidence. Hence, they don’t realize and acknowledge reality has a liberal bias.

  434. 434
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Nepenthe,

    Thank you!

  435. 435
    md

    –An effective welfare state.

    Or a declared state-religion perhaps? Either way, or both, I agree that the results has been a less religious people. The story is not over for Western Europe though.

    —The decline of religion in western Europe shows no sign of ending, or even slowing down.

    Even among its new immigrants? I like to read Kenan Malik as much as the next guy, but is he the trend or the exception?

  436. 436
    Nick Gotts

    md,

    Thanks for alerting me about the link. I’ll try again.

    With regard to imprisonment and crime, you may or may not be right: rates of violent crime at least have shown reductions across a wide range of societies over the past couple of decades, and the cause or causes are disputed; but this is only one of many social pathologies which correlate strongly with income inequality.

  437. 437
    Nepenthe

    do you think she’d have been better off had she skipped church, and started reading Camus’s Myth of Sisyphus (Im a fan, but…), found some local lad to take out to the shed for a shag (gov pays for birth-control, and if I get pregnant, my children’s well being), and started smoking cannabis (its legal in two states now, dontcha know)? We are always going to have relative poverty, always (though objective conditions will often rise). What is best for the poor to believe? Inner fortitude matters.

    Perhaps. I’m not sure why existentialism, sex, and recreational drugs are impediments to “inner fortitude”. (Poverty means you just can’t deal with ideas beyond “Jesus good. Work good.”? Poverty means you should renounce pleasure or else you’re not good?) I’m also not sure how that post supports the idea that religion is good for poor people (whatever that means); the commenter just asserts this. Rouzzo’s story doesn’t seem to support it, since she started pulling herself up by the bootstraps long before she started attending church.

    I’m not sure why you’d think we’d argue about the title of the magazine. It’s right there on the masthead.

  438. 438
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Nick, Im an American, forgive me, but to take an example with which im familiar, crime in New York City has decreased dramatically in the last 2 decades.

    Can’t find the link (as I have stated before, I’ll need lots of practice for even a white belt in googlefu!), but I seem to remember reading a paper a few years back that traced environmental lead contamination and crime rates — the crime rate followed, up and down, about five to ten years after the environmental lead levels. Point being, there are many things that can alter crime rates.

  439. 439
    broboxley OT

    ah the iconic, quiet muslim turkish slum

  440. 440
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    SteveoR:
    You’re the one who keeps complaining about this atmosphere.
    You clearly don’t have much problem with it, since you Keep. Coming. Back.
    You can give up the whining too.
    You’re not convincing anyone.

    You’re a trigger happy racist thug.

  441. 441
    cicely

    Am I the only one who sees “It’s better for the poor (or whatever disadvantaged group you want to designate) to stick to the comfort of Religion” as being, essentially, “The Truth? They can’t handle the Truth!”?
    -

  442. 442
    md

    —If so many people get cancer/dementia/atherosclerosis, does it have some value, some important function to humans that I dont’ understand?

    Analogy fail. People dont choose cancer. Yes yes, religion often transmits from parents to children. But free will exists on some level, eh? You must believe it does, or else you wouldnt toy with the idea that people could freely choose not to believe? The future is either unwritten, or it isn’t — in which case its futile to try to change it.

  443. 443
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    cicely,

    No, you’re not.

    It’s obvious that poor dears need something spiritual to keep them going, they couldn’t handle their lives otherwise. /sarcasm
    (which of course might be true for some individuals, but certainly not for any arbitrarily chosen group such as “poor people”)

  444. 444
    Nepenthe

    @cicely

    Nope.

    And thus did I lie in 435. I’m pretty sure I know why md wants poor people to avoid Camus.

  445. 445
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Why, yes, people choose poverty!

  446. 446
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Imagine poor people getting… ideas!

  447. 447
    cicely

    Or escaping from the social controls built into Religion?

    (Was I not supposed to say that out loud?)
    -

  448. 448
    consciousness razor
    We’re just supposed to forget about the influences from Greeks, Romans, Persians, Arabs, Africans, Asians of all sorts

    Nope – I never said that. Learn to read for comprehension next time’ k?.

    Also Greeks & Romans are included under Westerners y’know right?

    If you say so, jackass. Did Greek and Roman cultures just pop into existence out of the void and remain isolated in “the West”? What about Greeks and Romans who don’t fit the mold of “Westerners”?

    If somehow they all count, how were they an influence on “Western culture,” if it’s supposed to be a given that Persians, Arabs, Africans and Asians of all sorts were not?

    Why is it that racist shitpiles like you so rarely manage to spell out the implications of their ignorant fuckwittery for everyone else? Is it because you’re too fucking stupid to recognize how ignorant it is? Is it because you do know but don’t like being spit on for being the ignorant, racist assholes that you are?

    Why is that we always go around in circles with you? Why is it that all of the other people on the planet are barely worth mentioning, just worth your delusional “pity” and abject fear?

  449. 449
    consciousness razor

    But free will exists on some level, eh? You must believe it does, or else you wouldnt toy with the idea that people could freely choose not to believe?

    Nope. There are choices which people willfully choose. They do not need to “freely” choose them, if that’s supposed to mean nothing caused those choices.

    But an honest, sincere belief isn’t something you can simply “choose” to have in any case.

    The future is either unwritten, or it isn’t — in which case its futile to try to change it.

    It’s not “written,” but if you’re just going to speak in meaningless clichés, there’s little point in discussing it or what is or isn’t “futile.”

  450. 450
    Nick Gotts

    Analogy fail. People dont choose cancer. – md

    Why is that relevant? The point of the analogy is simply that the fact that something is widespread tells you absolutely nothing about whether it is beneficial.

    Yes yes, religion often transmits from parents to children.

    Actually, over historical time, the transmission rate must be well over 95%; I would guess over 99%; and the choice of adhering to no religion has only been available to any significant number of people for a century or so.

  451. 451
    strange gods before me ॐ

    I’ve updated the killfile: http://tinyurl.com/7e6xqa2

    +++++
    BTW, does anybody still have a copy of Daniel Martin’s last update to his killfile (the one that worked back at ScienceBlogs)?

    Not the 2009 version at userscripts.org/scripts/show/4107 — obviously I can still get that one — but the updates that were pushed out from snowplow.org/martin/greasemonkey/killfile.user.js ?

    It might still be in your Firefox profile folder. If you’ve got it, could you upload it somewhere for me? I suggest zipping it and uploading to anonfiles.com if you don’t have another preference.

  452. 452
    strange gods before me ॐ

    I’ve updated the killfile, which I’m having trouble linking to until PZ whitelists it again.

    pharyngula dot wikia dot com/wiki/greasemonkey

    +++++
    BTW, does anybody still have a copy of Daniel Martin’s last update to his killfile (the one that worked back at ScienceBlogs)?

    Not the 2009 version at userscripts.org/scripts/show/4107 — obviously I can still get that one — but the updates that were pushed out from snowplow.org/martin/greasemonkey/killfile.user.js ?

    It might still be in your Firefox profile folder. If you’ve got it, could you upload it somewhere for me? I suggest zipping it and uploading to anonfiles.com if you don’t have another preference.

  453. 453
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    If one of the monitors is currently monitoring, dpitman just took a dump on the Ham thread. (Crossposted)

  454. 454
    omnicrom

    –An effective welfare state.

    Or a declared state-religion perhaps? Either way, or both, I agree that the results has been a less religious people. The story is not over for Western Europe though.

    How is a social safety net the same thing as religion? What Dogmas or ceremonies or rituals are inferred from Welfare? Totalitarian Communist regimes can possibly be argued to be state-created religions when they demand love for their leaders and imagine them as divine beings, but the basic concept of providing support for the poor and disadvantaged isn’t the same thing.

    —The decline of religion in western Europe shows no sign of ending, or even slowing down.

    Even among its new immigrants? I like to read Kenan Malik as much as the next guy, but is he the trend or the exception?

    There’s no difference culturally between an immigrant family who has moved to a country after one or two generations and a family that’s lived in the same place for a millenium. If an immigrant moves from a heavily religious state to a less religious state they will be more religious, but that will change as they acclimate to the culture.

  455. 455
    consciousness razor

    I’ve updated the killfile, which I’m having trouble linking to until PZ whitelists it again.

    I like that it says “hush” now instead of “kill.”

    But it’s too bad that it forgets everyone I had marked for certain death.

  456. 456
    Nick Gotts

    Or a declared state-religion perhaps? – md

    No, definitely not: this is a bizarre piece of nonsense propagated by Rodney Stark, without anything in the way of evidence apart from the fact that the USA is more religious than western Europe. Most European states have had declared state-religions as long as they have existed. The decline of religion is much more recent, largely post-WWII, i.e. during the period that effective welfare states have existed – and has gone further in France, which does not have a state religion, than almost anywhere else.

  457. 457
    Inaji

    SG:

    I’ve updated the killfile, which I’m having trouble linking to until PZ whitelists it again.

    I have it installed and checkmarked, but no luck, I’m not seeing a thing. I’m using Firefox 16.

  458. 458
    consciousness razor

    Totalitarian Communist regimes can possibly be argued to be state-created religions when they demand love for their leaders and imagine them as divine beings, but the basic concept of providing support for the poor and disadvantaged isn’t the same thing.

    Ethics is religion, remember? So is culture and anything else which isn’t entailed by the nonexistence of gods. That seems to be the one thing godbots and dictionary atheists can agree on. Atheists may not have much to claim, but it’s ours damn it!

  459. 459
    Nick Gotts

    Oh, and one can add Australia and New Zealand, both of which show a decline similar to western Europe, and neither of which has a state-religion. An interesting question, which we are unfortunately likely to see tested, is whether destroying the welfare state would lead to reversing the decline of religion.

  460. 460
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    So, uh, I realize this was awhile ago, but on the list of things about Turkey, this was cited:

    Crime against persons is infinitesimal.

    This is only true if “persons” is defined as “men.”

    Violence against women is reaching endemic levels, mostly so-called “honor” killings.

  461. 461
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Caine, let’s try some troubleshooting.

    Can you put about:addons in your URL bar, go to the Greasemonkey scripts, right-click on FtB killfile, click Edit ( it might ask for a preferred text editor: the path to Notepad is probably C:\windows\system32\notepad.exe ),

    and Ctrl-F for the line that begins with commenttopxpath

    paste that line here.

  462. 462
    Inaji

    Okay, I hope I have the right line here:

    commenttopxpath: “//ol[contains(concat(' ',@class,' '),' commentlist ')]/li”,
    sigbit: “.//cite[1]“,
    replaceXpath: “child::node()”,
    mangleBefore: null,
    mangleAppend: null,
    tabXpath: null,
    precedingBit: ”,
    followingBit: ”,
    sigUserMatch: ‘$2′,
    sigHrefMatch: ‘$1′,
    aHrefAttribute: ‘href’, // sometimes title
    get sigpat() {

  463. 463
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Okay, I see the problem. Just a minute.

  464. 464
    md

    There’s no difference culturally between an immigrant family who has moved to a country after one or two generations and a family that’s lived in the same place for a millenium. If an immigrant moves from a heavily religious state to a less religious state they will be more religious, but that will change as they acclimate to the culture.

    Michele Triblaut over at the Guardian, disagrees. with that last clause.

  465. 465
    md

    scuse, Michele Tribalat.

  466. 466
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Somehow Wikia served you the old version again. I think this is just a serverside caching thing, and it’ll work itself out over the next couple days.

    In the meantime, you can go to http://tinyurl.com/cr2n6h6 and where it says “Clear the cache of this page?” click OK.

    Then try http://tinyurl.com/br84bez to install it again.

    It that still doesn’t work, try http://tinyurl.com/bsgmnpw but I don’t recommend this last one, it’ll probably screw up your automatic updates for killfile in the future, and to get the updates working again you’ll have to go to the usual PharynguWiki Greasemonkey page and reinstall it (after this current caching problem goes away).

  467. 467
    chigau (違う)

    My killfile is working just fine.
    Did I just get lucky?
    Firefox 17.0.1

  468. 468
    Xanthë, Amy of my threads

    PZ wrote:

    Has anyone else noticed that when a troll stumbles into one of these threads and rapidly jacks up the comment count, when I close it and open a new one with a prominent link, these poor saps often get lost and can’t find the new thread? It’s like flunking a basic IQ test, every time.

    Hypothesis: quite possibly these trolls click on the ‘notify me of follow-up comments’ box; without constant e-mail reminders hitting their inbox of what the current thread is, they not only lose interest, they lose track of when the thread closes and a new one opens in place of it. (Noticed this phenomenon elsewhere, e.g. with some of the dedicated trolls on say Manboobz.)

  469. 469
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Working!
    Thank you very much, strange gods before me ॐ rational skeptic seeking truth for friendship, possibly more.

  470. 470
    Argle Bargle

    Obviously I’m doing something wrong because I’ve dumped the old killfile, cleared the cache, loaded the new killfile, and end up with nothing.

  471. 471
    strange gods before me ॐ

    chigau,

    Did I just get lucky?

    Probably. Different physical locations will get different servers, some of which have the updated version already, others of which will need their caches purged.

  472. 472
    consciousness razor
    There’s no difference culturally between an immigrant family who has moved to a country after one or two generations and a family that’s lived in the same place for a millenium. If an immigrant moves from a heavily religious state to a less religious state they will be more religious, but that will change as they acclimate to the culture.

    Michele Triblaut over at the Guardian, disagrees. with that last clause.

    So what if she disagrees? I see evidence that over a span of a decade and a half, the same demographic of Algerian immigrants to France have become increasingly religious. So what? That’s one statistic out of many, and it’s hardly evidence against a general trend. What other factors is it leaving out?

    A broader group is described toward the end:

    They reject the image of poor wretches, constantly in trouble with the police, who know neither how to behave properly nor how to control their children. They also reject the idea of “secondhand Arabs” who hold down executive jobs, no longer speak Arabic and have native-French partners. Instead they are reconstructing their identity, a process that gives additional importance to the community, to campaigns to restore the use of Arabic, and of course to religion.

    In what sense are these people acclimating to the culture? For your argument to work, you must have assumed that they had acclimated in substantial ways to the culture. Showing that some people keep their religious traditions (or return to them) isn’t enough.

  473. 473
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Sorry to hear that, Rodney. The only other thing I can think of is suggesting you edit it manually. If you want to, follow along with the instructions to Caine in #458 up through “Edit”.

    Then here are the changes.

    commenttopxpath: "//ol[contains(concat(' ',@class,' '),' commentlist ')]/li",

    should be

    commenttopxpath: "//ol[contains(concat(' ',@id,' '),' comments_list ')]/li",

    and then

    var scenariolist = {freethoughtblogs:[{scenario:wordpressScenario,xpath:"//ol[contains(concat(' ',@class,' '),' commentlist ')]/li[1]/descendant::*[self::cite or self::span][1][self::cite]"}]};

    should be

    var scenariolist = {freethoughtblogs:[{scenario:wordpressScenario,xpath:"//ol[contains(concat(' ',@id,' '),' comments_list ')]/li[1]/descendant::*[self::cite or self::span][1][self::cite]"}]};

  474. 474
    Nick Gotts

    I don’t have time or patience for a full response to Tribalat, but the article reads like a watered-down version of the racist scaremongering we see from right-wing Christians and atheists alike. She starts out with a piece of obvious bullshit:

    Islam is often portrayed as an integral part of French history: its presence simply follows on from ancient history.

    No reference is given, and I’d be astonished if anyone had ever made such a claim: there never was a period before WWII when there was any significant number of Muslims in France, and anyone pretending there was would instantly and rightly be dismissed as either ignorant or a liar, so there would be no possible advantage in doing so.
    As for the decline in the proportion of children of Algerian immigrants professing no religion between 1992 and 2008, despite what Tribalat says there is an obvious explanation: when an aspect of your culture is under attack, there is a strong tendency to defend and assert it.

  475. 475
    Inaji

    Oooh, YES! Thank you, SG. You’re so patient.

  476. 476
    Valde

    *What* is with all the tone trolls?

    Over at Butterflies and Wheels, the latest incarnation of Chadgething:

    If you want me to read something, calling me an asshole is not the way to go about it.

    I already told you – i get it, I get what you guys are griping about, i get why it’s upsetting. Here’s the problem though : most people don’t. Most people also don’t much give a shit one way or the other. They’re going to listen to your argument and if it makes sense, they’ll continue to listen. When you launch into rants about how they want to kill women and this that and the other thing – you’re going to lose most people. It doesn’t pass the initial smell test for those who are not already familiar with the players and the circumstances involved. Some of us are willing to take the time and read and figure it out enough – most are not. If you act from a position where you assume people already “get it” you’re screwed.

    If your idea of educating people so they know the difference, and can make sense of your argument – refrain from the name calling. Even cutting you some slack i’m already sick of it.

    He also defends the right to free speech, saying that vile speech is totes ok as long as you don’t directly call for the murder of someone. Implying it is ok however!@!

  477. 477
    md

    Nick, regarding your assertion that an effective welfare state will attenuate religion over time, Im going to make what I think is a plausible assumption that im too lazy to evidence: new immigrants to western Europe use welfare at or perhaps even above the rate of native populations.

    If that is so, and the statistics that Tribalat cite are true, why isn’t Islam withering among its young? Have we not waited long enough for the welfare state to work its rationalist machinations?

  478. 478
    Inaji

    Rodney:

    Obviously I’m doing something wrong because I’ve dumped the old killfile, cleared the cache, loaded the new killfile, and end up with nothing.

    Okay, I did all that and it didn’t work either. Did it all again, nothing. So I clicked on ‘New User Script’ in Greasemonkey and up popped the killfile in notepad. I selected all and deleted it, then pasted in the one from http://tinyurl.com/br84bez

  479. 479
    Nepenthe

    *cough*

    So, md, why exactly shouldn’t poor people be reading Camus instead of their Bible?

    (I’m going to operate on the assumption that md simply didn’t see the numerous posts asking this question.)

  480. 480
    Xanthë, Amy of my threads

    sgbm ॐ rsstff, pm wrote:

    I’ve updated the killfile, which I’m having trouble linking to until PZ whitelists it again.

    pharyngula dot wikia dot com/wiki/greasemonkey

    Updated and tested to be working nicely on both Firefox and Chrome (the latter with tampermonkey installed instead of greasemonkey); thanks very much for your work. Incidentially, when did the word ‘kill’ get changed to ‘hush’? That’s a much better word for dismissing the words of irritating commenters from sight.

  481. 481
    Nepenthe

    Im going to make what I think is a plausible assumption that im too lazy to evidence: new immigrants to western Europe use welfare at or perhaps even above the rate of native populations.

    When you assume you make an ass out of you, but not me.

    http://oxrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/542.short

    http://www.iza.org/en/webcontent/publications/papers/viewAbstract?dp_id=5515

    Short answer: it depends on location and data used.

  482. 482
    Inaji

    SG, I don’t suppose there’s any hope you’d be willing to take over the Text Formatting Toolbar? The developer isn’t interested in keeping it updated. I really, really miss that add on.

  483. 483
    Nick Gotts

    Im going to make what I think is a plausible assumption that im too lazy to evidence: new immigrants to western Europe use welfare at or perhaps even above the rate of native populations.
    If that is so, and the statistics that Tribalat cite are true, why isn’t Islam withering among its young? – md

    I strongly suspect you’re wrong, because most people who “use welfare” are over 60, and immigrant populations are younger than non-immigrants. But in any case, this is irrelevant, because I did not assert, and do not believe, that those “using welfare” are likely to be less religious than those who do not; indeed, I suspect the opposite. What I’m suggesting is more a societal effect than an individual one: it is the general sense that there is an effective secular safety net, that if you become sick or unemployed, and when you become old, the state will help you, that I propose has made the difference. Young Muslims in France are likely to feel precisely the opposite: that the state is their enemy.

  484. 484
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    SG, I don’t suppose there’s any hope you’d be willing to take over the Text Formatting Toolbar? The developer isn’t interested in keeping it updated. I really, really miss that add on.

    TFT ver. 0.1.4.10 is still working on my version of Firefox, but then I have Nightly Tester Tools loaded, which can cause a skip of the compatibility with the latest FF version needing to be run when updates occur.

  485. 485
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Caine, thanks for helping Rodney. Your suggestion should work. I will pray to the brontosauruses just in case.

    SG, I don’t suppose there’s any hope you’d be willing to take over the Text Formatting Toolbar?

    It doesn’t seem to be copylefted, so I couldn’t do so publicly. I’ll have a look at it later to see if the fix is within my threshold of laziness.

    +++++
    Xanthe,

    Incidentially, when did the word ‘kill’ get changed to ‘hush’?

    Late September. Those using Greasemonkey’s automatic updates should have received the change soon afterwards.

  486. 486
    Inaji

    Nerd:

    TFT ver. 0.1.4.10 is still working on my version of Firefox, but then I have Nightly Tester Tools loaded, which can cause a skip of the compatibility with the latest FF version needing to be run when updates occur.

    *scampers off to do stuff* Oh gods, it still works! Eeeee. Thank you, Nerd. You’re all so patient with my idiocy today.

  487. 487
    Weed(less) Monkey

    Yay! Than you SGॐ, thank you very much.

  488. 488
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Oh, nice!

  489. 489
    Nick Gotts

    To elaborate #480 slightly: I “suspect the opposite” because both use of welfare, and religiosity, decline with educational level.

    I find it interesting that you misinterpreted my claim in the particular way you did: like most rightists, you appear to have difficulty thinking about social questions on anything but the level of individuals’ responses to their specific circumstances.

  490. 490
    Weed(less) Monkey

    re: Text Formatting Toolbar: maybe BBCodeXtra could be helpful? I’ve been using it since forever, as I don’t want toolbars eating up my limited screen.

  491. 491
    consciousness razor
    TFT ver. 0.1.4.10 is still working on my version of Firefox, but then I have Nightly Tester Tools loaded, which can cause a skip of the compatibility with the latest FF version needing to be run when updates occur.

    *scampers off to do stuff* Oh gods, it still works! Eeeee. Thank you, Nerd. You’re all so patient with my idiocy today.

    For what it’s worth, TFT 0.1.4.10 is working with FF 17.0.1, and I don’t use Nightly Tester Tools to force it or whatever.

  492. 492
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Okay, I’ve just done a cosmetic update which moves the “[hush]​[hide comment]” into the same line with the nym, like it used to be.

    Serverside caching issues again I’m sure. No support offered this time unless this change breaks the whole killfile.

    *runs away*

  493. 493
    Inaji

    Weed Monkey:

    re: Text Formatting Toolbar: maybe BBCodeXtra could be helpful? I’ve been using it since forever, as I don’t want toolbars eating up my limited screen.

    I have BBCodeXtra, I don’t like it. No blockquote (yeah, I have it under custom, but it’s annoying) and I prefer the toolbar.

  494. 494
    chigau (違う)

    My killfile has been hushfile since October 4.

  495. 495
    consciousness razor

    re: Text Formatting Toolbar: maybe BBCodeXtra could be helpful? I’ve been using it since forever, as I don’t want toolbars eating up my limited screen.

    Really? It’s just one button, which can toggle the extra toolbar open and closed whenever you need it.

    And I already have too much crap in my context menu. :)

  496. 496
    consciousness razor

    I don’t know why I just now got “hush.” Greasemonkey 1.5…. Not many options to pick from except “Require secure updates” which I have checked.

  497. 497
    Inaji

    CR:

    For what it’s worth, TFT 0.1.4.10 is working with FF 17.0.1, and I don’t use Nightly Tester Tools to force it or whatever.

    Thanks for letting me know. I am so used to using TFT. Now that I have it back and my tabs on the bottom, where they belong, I’m better now.

  498. 498
    md

    Nick, have to run for now. Your last comment is interesting and Id like to respond. I’ll just close with saying Im enjoying the conversation.

  499. 499
    Hurin

    StevoR

    “Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics – and you’ll get ten different answers. But there’s one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years, or a thousand years, or a million years, eventually our sun will grow cold, and go out. When that happens, it won’t just take us, it’ll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tsu, Einstein, Maruputo, Buddy Holly, Aristophanes – all of this. All of this was for nothing, unless we go to the stars.”

    - Commander Sinclair, Babylon 5, Season 1, Episode 4 “Infection”

    Sorry to be the one to inform you, but it won’t matter. If the death of the Sun doesn’t end us, it’ll be the collision between the Milky Way and Andromeda which will happen about the same time. If we dodge that bullet we’ll have to contend with the “big rip” or entropy death or some other mega catastrophe that will occur a finite distance in the future. This universe is a death trap, and it will erase us and all memory of us eventually.


    “And on the pedestal these words appear:
    ‘My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
    Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!’”

    -Percy Bysshe Shelley

  500. 500
    Weed(less) Monkey

    Caine:

    I have BBCodeXtra, I don’t like it. No blockquote

    That’s odd. For me it’s the first selection beyond ‘clipboard’.

    and I prefer the toolbar.

    Certainly it’s a personal preference. My old laptop’s screen is only 800 pixels tall so I don’t want anything extra on it.

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