I know it’s often offensive; it’s supposed to be offensive, especially if it’s targeting people in power. When Michael Richards had his temper tantrum, calling black members of the audience racist slurs, he crossed a line by targeting a more vulnerable group, and echoing a sentiment that was the product of centuries of oppression. It’s not surprising that the audience walked out on him and that his career took a crippling hit.
But something very similar just happened. Another comedian, Daniel Tosh, uses the stage to tell rape jokes, and when a woman in the audience calls out that rape jokes are never funny, he has a totally inappropriate response.
After I called out to him, Tosh paused for a moment. Then, he says, “Wouldn’t it be funny if that girl got raped by like, 5 guys right now? Like right now? What if a bunch of guys just raped her…” and I, completely stunned and finding it hard to process what was happening but knowing i needed to get out of there, immediately nudged my friend, who was also completely stunned, and we high-tailed it out of there. It was humiliating, of course, especially as the audience guffawed in response to Tosh, their eyes following us as we made our way out of there. I didn’t hear the rest of what he said about me.
And there’s what I don’t get. The audience laughed and stayed for that? Talking about raping a heckler is now a laugh line?
I don’t know, has his career taken a hit? It might be hard to tell — hosting a youtube clips show on basic cable isn’t exactly the pinnacle of comedy.
It’s just odd that people can have a sense of shame about racism, but it’s still considered hilarious to laugh at the idea of women being gang-raped (or, since I know it’s coming, that joking about prison rape is good for a laugh. Please don’t try to turn the joke around and make it about Tosh getting raped, because that isn’t funny, either.)
StevoR
You’re a bad person for reasons I’ve stated before and you’re irrational and anti-humanistic. Kiss off.
Well shit do we even know if this Tosh person actually performed at all!?
I mean do we even know for sure Wilkes killed Lincoln? There’s no video!
StevoR, bigot:
No, we know exactly what a paranoid islamophobic bigot like yourself has said. Nothing intelligent, just raving paranoia about that which won’t be happening.
mythbri (#470) – Certainly “being on the receiving end of insults and anger is not a good enough reason – in and of itself – to reject the arguments behind them.” but it is enough to keep me from wanting to engage in the conversation. It is enough to make me apathetic to an argument. I hate that. The argument is too important to be distracted by bullshit name calling and insults because it was assumed my question was asked in bad faith or I am too ignorant to participate in the first place. There is little good when there is more insult and anger than substantive argument as well.
I see your point about discussions with creationists. That is something I feel I understand well and I am amazed that others don’t. It is frustrating having a discussion when the understanding of the other party is so vastly different from your own. I don’t think we should be throwing insults at creationists either though. We don’t know if they are coming from a place of ignorance or if they are just here to stir the pot. There is hope to convince the former, unless they are turned away by the insults first.
Cipher (#472) – True. I just learned about rape culture last night and I have a lot more to learn. What you quoted was what I stated as my understanding before learning we have a culture that accepts/defends rape. I am learning how not everyone understands how horrific rape is. I am still surprised by that fact.
Gen, Uppity Ingrate. (#479) – Thanks for the excerpt about rape culture. My question was answered, after I asked it, which is why I asked. I only object to the insults for asking it in the first place.
—
My conclusion here is Pharyngula is not a place for those who are new to feminism. It is a place for experts to talk to each other. It is not a place for me to learn anything through participation yet and I should go back to lurking and finding answers to my questions elsewhere.
I understood you perfectly fine. Take it to TZT if you want to babble more about that.
@Forrest
Rape culture is a somewhat advanced feminist topic, it’s true. There are a lot of advanced feminist topics that are discussed here at Pharyngula sometimes, and here are some of the reasons why people who are new to feminism might want to read a lot (not necessarily here, but other places as well) first before joining in:
1. It’s hard to have an advanced discussion with people who are still fuzzy on the basics. This is true of any topic. It’s hard to discuss a calculus problem with someone who hasn’t grasped algebra. It’s hard to analyze literature with someone who doesn’t understand what a metaphor is. It’s hard to talk about genetics with someone who doesn’t understand biology.
2. There are people who are not willing to learn, and who do not want to engage in meaningful discussion. For some reason, discussions about feminism attract these people like flies, and they are more interested in derailing the discussion and making it all about them than they are about learning things. It’s hard to tell these people apart from the people who are just new at this, because one of the most effective derailing tactics used is “Just Asking Questions”. They will ask an “innocent” question, and then another, and another, all the while refusing to accept the basic premise of the discussion. Nothing constructive is gained.
3. There really are people out there who don’t want things to change, and try to silence the people that do. They often sneak in as the “Just Asking Questions” type, and then it becomes clear that they just really hate feminism, women and anyone who agrees with either of them.
Since you’re still learning, this is a good place to read about the basics of feminism – there are a lot of resources out there, and remember that people having an advanced discussion will not always want to take time away from it to go over 101 stuff:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/
I wish you good reading.
[Trigger alert]
BTW, for those of you still doubting that Tosh might have made the rape jokes, there are videos here of him doing just that.
Some more research studies for the topic of the harm in ‘jokes’ which use race, gender, orientation and disability.
Here’s one for racist imagery and Obama.
Here’s a study on the use of rape jokes and gendered slurs in the locker room to promote male bonding in sports.
@mythbri – Thank you.
Cody:
And you keep missing OUR point that “something like this” is something to “get worked up over,” because it contributes to rape.
Why don’t you read the fucking papers that were proffered you, instead of continuing to be insistently wrong because your ego can’t stand it if you back down and you don’t have the empathy to hear what rape survivors here are telling you?
Those of us who are vulnerable to rape don’t find any “escapism” in the mindset of a douchebag who thinks rape jokes are funny. We have to deal with that shit IRL; we don’t want it in our “entertainment.”
Uh, yeah, there’s a HUGE difference between me and some frathole dudebro, in terms of sexual anatomy, physical strength, and relative privilege in society.
Let me guess, you whinge about “identity politics,” too? Because people banding together to advocate for themselves based on how they’re oppressed are being “divisive”?
No, asshole, an equal society strives to put all people on an equal level. Not to punch down at those who are already standing beneath others. Only an oblivious douchecanoe like you can actually think we’re on a level playing field.
Sure, it makes sense if you’re an ignorant idiot with a penchant for feelgood aphorisms.
Ya think?
And we all know that the internet != real life. It’s not like there are actual people reading your words. You know, like Millicent, who said upthread that she had to do some exercises to keep from descending into a psychic tailspin.
Of course you are. Same smug bubble of privilege, same inability to actually reason.
No.
Fauxpology is faux.
WTF? “When does ignorance turn from a bad thing to a good thing?” Uh, never?
Jesus fuck. You are one dense piece of shit. You think people becoming more ignorant is a good thing?
“If you notice and call out sexism/racism/etc., you’re the sexist/racist/bigot!”
Not sure if you all have seen the latest chapter in all this yet, but it’s extra disturbing:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/amyodell/comedy-club-owner-says-daniel-tosh-incident-has-be
‘The rest of the audience gave him a standing ovation so how could anyone have been offended?!?!’
herp derp.
Seconded. I’m loving the religious twist.
++
So, IOW, boys/men bond over their mutual hatred of women. How lovely.
Forrest:
Poor baybay. Maybe if you had actually read the thread through, you’d have seen the answer to your question. Imnotandrei at #246, whose comment preceded yours by enough time for you to have seen it before posting.
Given how many disingenuous trolls show up here, many of them pretending to pose “honest questions,” I don’t have too many tears to shed for you.
Crocofuck:
I love it when teh menz mansplain to me how I should put up with their douchebaggery because it’s for my benefit. Asshole.
Of course. Rape won’t affect you, not likely, so it’s not a big problem. Why can’t us fluffy-brained gurlz be stoic about it, like you are?
It’s always the condescending shitstains who sign off with “Peace,” isn’t it? Did you want to throw in a “Namaste” while you’re at it?
Oh, yes! We should all work to ~~forgive~~ scum who commit or normalize violence against women. Because they just ~~made a mistake!~~ If we don’t forgive, we won’t be ~~enlightened~~ like Joachim, will we?
Yeah, I heard the same smarmy, self-serving platitudes during l’affaire Schwyzer. Feelgood bullshit that allows the feelgooders to duck hard questions about how their behavior enables predators by shoving all emotional responsibility onto the victims.
There are some people you do not want to “get along with.” “Getting along with” them indicates your ability to turn a blind eye to their rottenness. That makes you morally vacuous. I’d rather embrace my “,” thank you very much.
With a big bottle of Astroglide next to the monitor, I bet.
ryugagotoku:
“OK, you may have a point, but let me expend several paragraphs, and then numerous comments, talking about the real problem, which isn’t rape culture but heckling.”
Another fine example of the sort of douchebag who infests the “comedy” world. Go jump into a vat of acid and improve the planet.
You stink of bro, bro. You’d have to be the chillest of Chill Girls™ to sound like that otherwise.
Nah, sex workers actually do hard, stigmatized work for their living, rather than just phone it in and rake in the bucks.
Entirely appropriate, you misogyny-dripping scatpile. Go read up on what victim blaming IS, and you can fucking Google it.
As I said, you’re a prime example of what’s wrong with the “comedy” scene. Your moral judgment is untrustworthy.
Have you popped out on the other side of the planet yet?
I only ever see this accusation from someone whose own words are perfectly sufficient to sink them but who don’t want to own them.
No, it’s a sociological phenomenon of which you are supremely ignorant. Personally, I think you’re not just a rape victim blamer but have a rapist mentality, and I wouldn’t want to be in a dark alley alone with your creepy ass.
I’m genuinely sorry that happened to you. That doesn’t excuse the shit you’ve been spewing in this thread, and I echo what Caine said at #461 about its nil impact on your misogyny.
Congaboy:
So you’re arguing in bad faith. Noted.
Anotherasshole:
Context denialism. Also, lots of people complain about Sarah Silverman; she’s extremely controversial. You don’t get to ignore that in order to score a point.
LDTR:
I do.
I disagree with others on the porcupine meme. It’s not a rape meme. The slymepitters would just find something else to complain about. And, admittedly, I’d probably feel less irked about the discussion if we didn’t already have handwringing in TET over words like “jerk” and “asshole.” Are we going to cavil over “fuck you” next? I don’t want this place to go the way of Shakesville.
ltft,
I want to call attention to Cipher’s replies again, since they are more important than what I’m about to say.
Now, let’s be clear, Oswalt’s point only makes sense as an actual First Amendment argument against actual government censorship of comedy clubs. For comparison, it doesn’t make sense against comedy clubs which, by exercising their private property rights, set their own standards of behavior for comedians.
It could not mean that the customer, at any sort of comedy club, is giving up their ability to critique the performance, after or during the performance. It could not mean that people who are hurt or offended by a comedian’s words should shut up about it. It could not mean that those people are wrong and/or the comedian is right. It could not have any relevance to this discussion, in fact, since no one here has proposed government censorship.
If Oswalt intended this as anything but an argument about actual government censorship, then he was confused.
Comedians are not exempt from the implications of a democratic society; comedy like everything else is open to interactive critique by other citizens. It doesn’t come down to us from on high.
Quoting this bit so you aren’t misunderstood.
Yo!
Let them. It’s become cliche anyway
@8
Thanks for the link to that blogpost with clips of this so-called comedian.
Well, big surprise: he isn’t funny at all. This is the sort of humour that is designed to amuse immature boys. He’s just annoying to watch, and that rape joke about his sister was just sick.
This whole “don’t heckle” thing is simply authoritarianism.
(Ahem. The hypocritical kind of authoritarianism, since comedians think they’re anti-authoritarian.)
Here’s one from Yale about prison rape jokes/narratives and the effect on law enforcement.
Here’s a UC Davis law review article>/a> about damage done to the first amendment by hate speech or harassing speech.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/amyodell/comedy-club-owner-says-daniel-tosh-incident-has-be
I think right now this is the only other description of the event we have.
Comedians can step over the line, he did, and he apologized while linking directly to her Tumblr post. He certainly didn’t have to, he could have just ignored her (and suffered no professional backlash) or even mocked her more, if he was the terrible person he’s being portrayed as. It’s almost comical how so many people in this thread are falling over themselves to make sure everyone here knows how much they hate Tosh’s comedy. He’s clearly very liberal/progressive in his comedy generally; count me in with the people commenting that disagrees with the level of venom being shot at him.
My own position is that everybody should stop using the particular words and phrases of which I disapprove, but that those that are OK by me should automatically be regarded as OK by everybody else too. This would be by far the most convenient outcome for me, since I would not have to change or even think about my own behavior one bit.
Please get busy making this happen, you assdouchejerkhats.
I’m sorry we don’t hand out awards for being Not-Spoony
Illuminata: At least someone went out and provided stringent proof of something we know to be true. I’d imagine, though, that anyone who played sports or listened to athletes could have told us all that much. I know I could have.
__________________________________________
Also, html, how the fuck does that work? *hangs own head in shame*
Gee, another tone troll providing no evidence to back up their tone trolling assertions, just “you are bad”. Well, you are illogical and irrelevant. Get used to being irrelevant, until you stop tone trolling and telling other adults how to behave, while behaving badly yourself. End of story.
????
I don’t follow…other than the talk about the stupid hedgehogs or whatever.
@jim
Yes, yes.
Immature pranks and rape jokes, very edgy and progressive.
Fuck that shit …
Carlie, adopt away! I think I prefer the crown of decaying porcupines anyway, it more deftly conveys what I wish to impart to certain people. :D
The whole point of the decaying porcupine meme was to come up with something patently absurd, however, I have no problem with keeping the patently absurd part and losing the shove it up your ass part.
Shorter JIm: Hipster Misogyny and rape jokes are funny, you humorless bitches! I’m so cool because I say so!
from the recent linked article:
Oh, that makes it MUCH better. Well, that’s what you get for heckling, right?
I think the comedy scene can be much better than the slimepit that ryu and the club owner seem okay with consigning it to.
No Horde member said it was. it isn’t, but since its so easily used against us as if it were, I don’t use it.
And i COMPLETELY agree with wrt Shakesville.
Maybe you misunderstand and we’re not claiming him to be 100% pure evil.
Hey, I generally hate Robin Williams’s comedy but it’s not because I find it offensive.
You should get used to the idea that people don’t like all the things you like.
I don’t think that’s clear, but let me grant it for the sake of showing how your comment is stupid anyway:
What the fuck does it matter even if he’s the reincarnation of MLK? He made a shitty joke and he’s going to get critiqued for that. Destructive behavior should be talked about, even if it’s done by otherwise fine people.
You’re being a fucking whiner, jim. How about you go watch Waiting… to make yourself feel better.
Count in Chas as one more who doesn’t understand comedy qua democracy, I guess?
Democracies do have mores. We just discuss openly what they ought to be.
I totally second or third or n-th the admiration for this. I love, love LOVE the religious jab in there. Pharyngula Crown of Porcupines ™ (PCoP?) – hand out ALL the crowns!
How many porcupines does it take to make one crown, though?
Is it really a crown of porcupines, or just a porcupine crown?
This is important; we’d better get it right.
But the crown of porcupines makes even LESS sense and still has its origins in something that a long-forgotten commenter said.
Here’s a discussion of media culpability in misunderstandings of harassment law and the idea that harassment law (including the Title VII provisions allotted women to have recourse for the damage done by harassment, which includes jokes like the one we’re talking about.)
For shits and giggles, here’s a discussion on online harassment and the legal implications for the digital commons.
And it’s equally comical watching people come in and call what he does comedy.
Ok maybe it’s comedy, for those with the mind of a racist sexist 12 year old.
at best.
mouthyb, could you repost the second link in #19?
+++++
Therefore it is approaching memetic perfection!
It’s kinda perfect isn’t it. I mean, all our bigot trolls already think they are simultaneously the vast majority who hates us AND the pitiful minority being stomped on by us, so a crown of porcupines sound perfect for them.
That’s supposed to be better than what that woman accused him of saying? Ugh. No.
Ixchel:
It’s a crown made of decaying porcupines. I’d think at most, two decaying porcupines could be easily twisted into a crown of quills.
Rey:
No one needs use it, you know. :D
If the porcupine is sufficiently rotted (soft, flexible), you could probably make a crown with only one.
So jim, you have no problem with him encouraging sexual harassment? Is that behavior liberal or progressive?
I disagree that it makes less sense. They all think they are kings of skepticism/rationality/arguing on the internet, so what better for them to wear but a crown?
The fact that the crown is mocking them is pefect.
I didn’t know the porcupine thing came from a commenter. What’s the origin?
If you go to a Daniel tosh show, you should expect that kind of humour. If you somehow had no idea about the possibility he would make those kind of jokes, and then are so mortified by them that you feel the need to do something, then simply leave. If you call shit out during someones stand-up set then you will get attacked by the comedian, and it might get nasty.
Worst excuse ever.
Jesus fuck, who died and made comedians rulers of the universe?
@jim
Try as I might, I just can’t see how Tosh is liberal or progressive. I’ve watched a couple of his Comedy Central specials, and his Comedy Central show Tosh.0. I don’t see the liberal/progressive material.
Now, I had a friend who said that Tosh says the things he does in order to mock the people who have those viewpoints. Here is my problem with this:
1. If Tosh’s comedy persona is indistinguishable from the people he’s attempting to mock, then his comedy is bad and ineffective.
2. If his comedy is bad and ineffective, that means that the wrong people are laughing, for the wrong reasons. I have a cousin who has some wrong ideas about things. He thinks that white people are the most discriminated against. He thinks that all women are stupid liars who just want his money.
He thinks that Tosh is funny. He thinks that because the things that Tosh says reinforce those wrong ideas of his. If you want an example of how to do this correctly, look at Stephen Colbert.
Wow. That’s for that incisive wit and stunning insight, sw. Thank GOD you were here to victim-blame and dismiss. Whatever would we have done with out your contribution.
here, have a crown.
sw, read this.
Here’s one for why speech codes are not a violation of the First Amendment.
I’d like to make several points here. The first point is that this is only the studies and papers I could find which were published as PDFs online, though the best studies are only available in abstracts through google scholar.
Were I to use the databases I have access to, I could post links all damn day.
The second point is that the power of harassing jokes to motivate bad behavior and to cause damage is so well documented that I had thirty years of studies to choose from, and deliberately choose recent studies.
The third point is that ignorance of the law and research has not been held to be (by our courts) sufficient grounds for dismissal of the effect of one’s actions. Why, I ask rhetorically, would anyone suppose that their ignorance constitutes a defensible position?
Oh yeah, because people can afford to ignore the law in this respect. After all, it concerns women, the poor, persons of color and queer people, who cannot afford to bring their harassment to the court’s attention.
It exists, and you are responsible as employees, employers, students and/or citizens to find out about it. It’s not my nor any other persons responsibility to fulfill the social, legal and political duties of the ignorant.
/fuming pedant
Hi ixchel @15/page2,
First, many thanks for quoting my bit at the end.
Second, since you seem maybe curious (and I didn’t do Oswalt justice, perhaps*… Penn and Teller (I think it was, I never played it) had a computer game in the 90s. Mostly a bunch of crap, but one game stood out. At the time they made the game Congress was considering labeling/limiting the sale of/banning excessively violent or sexist video games. To protest this, Penn and Teller’s game had a, ‘driving to Santa Fe’ mini-game. The idea was that they were in LA and they had a gig booked in Santa Fe and they had to get there. Your goal, in the game, was to drive the bus from LA to Santa Fe. Without accelerating time. Or pausing the game. Or encountering anything more interesting than a bus whose wheel alignment was slightly off. For 13 hours. The point (I think?) was that, absent sex and violence, video games suck.
Patton Oswalt’s point wasn’t that the government shouldn’t censor comics or that patrons of comedy clubs shouldn’t criticize comedians. His point was that, when you enter that environment, you should turn your sensitivity to offense down to the lowest level possible. If that doesn’t generally happen the comedian won’t have enough material to be consistently funny and the audience won’t laugh anyway. That does not mean that you do not criticize crap like Tosh, but that you accept that things like this can happen (while still criticizing Tosh) if you want to have a vibrant source of comedy in your community.
I think I’m one of the few (the only?) who finds this relevant so I’ll shut up about this in a moment… A number of people in these comments have made arguments similar to the one above. Reading their comments, however, I think many people are mistaking ‘support for an idea of how comedy must work to remain vibrant’ with ‘support for an individual who screwed up.’ One of those is okay, the other… not so much.
*- I can’t stress enough- I haven’t listened to this argument in years and, while I’m pretty sure I have it right, I do not mean to slime Oswalt by unintentionally misrepresenting statements he made about a similar but different situation.
**- I also can’t stress enough- I don’t buy this argument as it pertains to rape jokes. ixchel @15 on page2 was kind enough to clip out the portion of my earlier post detailing this.
sw:
Oh look, another idiot. What a surprise. There are over 500 comments in this thread, dear fuckwit, which not only refute your stance, they utterly devastate it. Why don’t you try something novel, like reading.
Ah, I should have said: you are right, Cipher (@98 on page 1, in particular) had similar links to what I’m reciting.
As a person who loves violent video games, let me just point out that Penn and Teller’s lack of creativity doesn’t actually prove much of anything. There was some violence in Portal, which is fine, but that game would have been fantastic even without it.
No real “origin” to speak of, it was invented whole cloth. Someone, who from what I can remember was a semi-regular, had a bit of an explosion on some troll or other, and told him to fuck himself with a decaying porcupine. People glommed onto that right away. It’s probably off the internets right now since it was in the SciBorg days.
Oh seriously, go fuck yourself.
I can’t imagine being Daniel Tosh and saying to myself, “Well, if there are any rape survivors in the audience, then they should just expect to be triggered, and if they object to it, they should expect to be singled out for further abuse, because THAT’S THE WAY I ROLL, BROSEPH. I SPEAK TRUTH TO POWA!” I guess it’s just because I’m a halfway decent person.
And can we dispense with the notion that Tosh is so universally known and revered that no one can possibly go into a show (that he is not even headlining) without knowing ahead of time what he might inflict on an audience? He’s not Jerry Seinfeld, he’s the host of America’s Funniest Home Videos For Douchebags on cable.
As long as we’re talking about “seasoned road comedians”, a good 95% of them regularly do shows where their audience are not particularly fans of them and may not get their humor style or their subject matter. It’s the oldest occupational hazard in comedy. The smart ones don’t use this as an excuse (Of course, their dumbass fans are happy to).
You know I said I wasn’t going to get back into this. I was intending just to lurk because I’m genuinely interested in what you guys have to say; but then there’s this:
@Miss Daisy Cutter
“[about “blaming the victim”] it’s a sociological phenomenon of which you are supremely ignorant. Personally, I think you’re not just a rape victim blamer but have a rapist mentality, and I wouldn’t want to be in a dark alley alone with your creepy ass…[a bit later]…”I’m a gay guy who was raped as a child by an older man I trusted in my church. Most horrifying experience of my life.”…I’m genuinely sorry that happened to you. That doesn’t excuse the shit you’ve been spewing in this thread”
Fuck you. Seriously. Fuck you. Do you even read the shit you write? First you announce to me that “blaming the victim” is never a weak gambit to announce moral equivalency of your opponent with rape, then you call me a rapist (irony!), and then you say you’re sorry to hear that I’ve been raped. Fuck you. I don’t need your fucking insincere sympathy.
If there’s any doubt why newcomers have difficulty with feminism, that’s it in a nutshell right there.
Alright and now I’m really, really gone.
I’d never heard of him until I saw this thread. Had no idea he existed, let alone that he was a stand-up comedian.
Now, I’ll always think of him as “that guy who silenced a woman for calling him out on his rape jokes bullshit by suggesting it would be ironic and therefore humorous if she were to be sexually violated by a gang of men”.
I don’t think he should be killed or harmed physically, but I would most certainly do a piss in his pocket if he were standing in front of me in a queue. Y’know, because he’s a misogynist fart-bag.
Te amo.
I sure do hope that html works!
@mythbri 49: awesome.
@Cipher 57: agree on all counts (weakness of proof, Penn and Teller/creativity, little/no necessity for sex/violence, awesomeness of Portal).
Brag, brag, brag. Some people struggle with arts and crafts, I’ll have you know.
______________________________________
sw:
So you have no frame of reference, here, Donny. You are like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie…
Seriously.
Read what has been written. Your comment is stupid for reasons that would be very obvious to you* if you had done your due diligence.
*See the benefit of the doubt I just gave you there. It was my last one. Fresh out until the goodwill truck comes. Next Tuesday, I think.
ltft –
You would have an excellent point, but for one thing: what’s “vibrant” about rape jokes used as a weapon to silence and shame someone for disliking your OTHER rape jokes? What’s fresh about that? What’s inventive or creative about that? What’s different about that?
Someone upthread mentioned Wanda Sykes doing a piece about leaving her vagina at home so as to avoid rape. That’s a rape joke that is funny. (thank you youtube!) She’s not mocking victims, she’s not threatening people with rape. She’s mocking rape culture.
The sort of abusive shit Tosh does doesn’t fall under the category of “support for an idea of how comedy must work to remain vibrant”. It’s the exact opposite of that. Tosh is a one-trick pony whose one trick is a stale, flaccid substitute for actual comedy.
So, yeah, people defending his actions here are assumed to be in support of him. One can’t possibly pretend to be a fan a real comedy if Tosh’s lazy bigotry is considered untouchable.
Because the actions of ONE women are the fault of ALL women.
But you’re not a sexist.
Fuck off already.
Actually, some of the largest contributors to misunderstandings and rejection of feminism belong to these sorts of concerns.
Every self-professed ‘skeptic’ who fap to Penn and Teller should be made to read this. What a pair of buffoons.
And they don’t know fuck about video games.
And you’re entering a world of pain.
@Illuminata
“Because the actions of ONE women are the fault of ALL women.
But you’re not a sexist.
Fuck off already.”
I’m sorry, where did I say this was about “all women?” Chapter and verse please.
Reading comprehension Illuminata, try it out sometime. And hey, while I don’t think Daisy Cutter’s nonsense is every woman’s fault, your failure to call her out on it certainly speaks volumes about your character.
Really, really, really gone now.
AE:
You’re hereby excused from crown making duties.
LOL. Third time’s a charm: WE CAN ALL READ WHAT YOU WRITE.
I quoted you, you incredibly dumb fuck.
What speaks volumes about your character is you sexism, victim-blaming and complete lack of honesty.
Flouce and stay flounced. You’re useless.
Just noticed this:
LOL so, the actions of ONE woman, are the fault of all.
Thanks for proving my point.
@Illuminata
This is what you quoted:
“If there’s any doubt why newcomers have difficulty with feminism, that’s it in a nutshell right there. ”
Where does it say that “all women” are responsible for the thoughtlessness of Miss Daisy Cutter? God you’re dense.
You know what, I’ll add you to the list of people who aren’t making a strong case for feminist causes.
Pero nunca me llamas….
I can make sammiches. We giving any of those away?
ryugagotoku, I have this nice crown of decayed porcupines for you. You can wear it as a sign of your terrible persecution as you trample out the vintage of the internet. Now, stick the fucking flounce already, thank you. Your continued stupidity and willful ignorance is not helping.
Actually, I didn’t really consider myself a feminist before discovering Pharyngula. All I knew about feminists were some unfortunate stereotypes, so if I was ever asked, I would say that I support some feminist ideals, I’m for equality, but I would be careful about not aligning myself with those women.
Pharyngula cured me of those misconceptions and made me proud to call myself a feminist. Even if I was a bit scared when I was still a newcomer. The difference : I was reading and commenting in good faith.
@Illuminata
“LOL so, the actions of ONE woman, are the fault of all.
Thanks for proving my point.”
No. Fuck no. Read that exchange again. You said I blamed all women. I said I didn’t blame all women, that I blamed *her* specifically. Then I said that your failure to be upset about that is a flaw in *your* character. Keep up Illuminata.
Reading material for the hard of thinking:
Excellent explanation of privilege
https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/
Explainer: What’s an MRA?
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/10/explainer-whats-mra.html
Nice Guy™ 101.
http://synecdochic.livejournal.com/214607.html
Schroedinger’s Rapist.
http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/
Predator Redux
https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/predator-redux/
Things Happen to Men Too
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/
ryugagotoku that’s okay. If useless victim-blaming sexist asshats like you are what we’re driving away from good causes, what have we lost?
But, to explain why what you said is blaming all women for one’s actions, because you’re too fucking cowardly to admit what you did:
By saying that one woman is “aren’t making a strong case for feminist causes”, you’re saying you don’t support equality because you’re selfish crybaby who can’t handle being argued with. YOu’re saying your support for equality is conditional. Which means you’re an asshole.
So, fucking flounce already. You’re not an ally. You’re a whiny, victim-blaming, dishonest sexist. Useless. Piss off.
@caine
“Your continued stupidity and willful ignorance is not helping.”
Daisy Cutter called me a rapist. If you’re not upset about that I don’t know what else to say here.
@Beatrice
I don’t want anyone to think that I’m attempting to attack feminism; hypothetically I support it, and though I’m generally ignorant of the literature, I am willing to learn. The intellectual dishonesty I’m seeing on display here in response to the above post is enlightening, however.
AE:
No one said anything to me. No one ever makes me a sammich.
ryugagotoku, stick the fucking flounce already. Dimwitted assclown.
Thereby blaming me for the offense you took to something SOMEONE else said.
And you blamed all feminists by extention.
Try to keep up, diddums. The frequence of your utter failures must be exhausting!
This is why I don’t have discussions about comedy with people like Cody.
They’re to comedy what Thomas Kinkade fans are to art.
Brownian: Pish. Everyone knows that puzzle games are for girls and first person shooters/horror games are for real people.
*hides headset and turns off Metro 2033*
Huh. I just don’t think that’s true. People here make me laugh every day and I never “turn my sensitivity to offense down”. In fact I can be offended and amused at the same time; I suspect these two things happen at different levels of processing.
I don’t understand what this is supposed to mean. I can parse it, but there’s this sticking point: what does “accept” mean? If we’re not outlawing it, then we are accepting it. We don’t need to do some greater level of acceptance for comedy to function.
At another level, if we’re criticizing him then we’re not “accepting” him, and I think that’s fine. But if Oswalt wasn’t saying don’t criticize, and he wasn’t arguing against government censorship, then this word “accept” seems to be empty of any idea. It appears to be a nonsense word which imparts no coherent meaning but only imparts a positive affect.
I realize you’re relaying this second hand from memory, but I’m not blaming you for the imprecision; I’ve come across similar arguments before and I suspect Oswalt’s probably was similarly incoherent in this sense.
Honestly it sounds like an idea that comedians came up with while complaining at each other backstage about how tough the crowd is. I don’t turn down any of my expectations when I go to any other place of business. Oswalt’s argument seems to be that most comedians are selling a defective product, so we should lower our expectations if we want any comedy at all; he may be right about the first part, but I don’t think the second part follows. Maybe we’re getting a lot of shitty comedy because there’s little pressure from consumers for a better product.
Hi Illuminata @63,
I’m not defending what Tosh said and I definitely don’t consider him or his comment vibrant or original or creative or whatever else. Let me try again…
The argument I think I’m reading from some here (and that I tried to rephrase above based on something Patton Oswalt said) is that, if you want good comedy, you put 100 people on 100 stages and let them go to town on any subject possible without any real rules. Some of those 100 will be at the bottom of the bell curve, the Michael Richards-es and Daniel Tosh-es. Those people are an inevitable consequence of letting 100 people do whatever they think is funny, and an unfortunately necessary consequence of giving everyone complete freedom to try to be funny.
I think some people (and maybe I’m being generous here) are trying to argue not that what Tosh did was in any way okay but rather that the 100-person model is necessary for good comedy and, since Tosh is a necessary consequence of that model, we just have to live with him even if he sucks and was horribly offensive. That’s different than the others here who are clearly arguing that what he said was fine.
Just my two cents.
Before you talk about intellectual dishonest, reat your first sentence. You need to shut the fuck up and listen, or you are intellectually dishonest. You can’t tell those who know more than you what they must believe, or how they should act. You, if you are learning, need to shut the fuck up so you can learn. Why aren’t you doing that? Right, you don’t really want to learn, you only want us to think you want to learn, which is dishonest.
Hmm. Tosh is that moron that now has a TV show which runs video from the internet, and makes snide, stupid, and sometimes, “WTF?”, type comments about, right? Yeah, I can see him being completely clueless about why rape jokes would be wrong. He is, pretty much, clueless about ***everything***. Sadly, the alternative would be another, “Worlds funniest videos”, with an editor that only chooses the stupidest, and tamest, ones possible. But, one is tempted to tape this idiots mouth shut, when he is on TV, since he thinks he needs to make idiot comments to *every* video, no matter how inappropriate.
Frankly, putting it simply, I wouldn’t put it past him to comment, ‘Well, now its easier to get a money shot.”, to a video showing a woman’s legs being ripped off by a train (some of his TV has come damn close to this). That is how bloody barking stupid the guy is.
@Illuminata
“By saying that one woman is “aren’t making a strong case for feminist causes”, you’re saying you don’t support equality because you’re selfish crybaby who can’t handle being argued with. YOu’re saying your support for equality is conditional. Which means you’re an asshole.”
No. I said that that person calling me a rapist is inexcusable, and that your defense of these actions weakens my perception of *your* character and the cause you *think* you’re supporting.
I’ve argued with you guys fine. But calling *me* a rapist makes *you* the asshole (or in this case the person defending an asshole).
ryugagotoku
Since you aren’t leaving:
<blockquote>words you are quoting</blockquote>
results in
This will make your comments easier to read.
It won’t help you make sense.
So add incredibly incompentent liar to your list of attributes.
Hilarious though that, RIGHT AFTER admitting you’re ignorant on the subject, you pretend that we’re the ones showing intellectual dishonesty, after you’ve spent all afternoon victim-blaming and shitting sexism all over the thread.
Congrats on earning your crown! It looks so good on you!
Lo siento; yo estaba lavando el pelo.
Illuminata,
To be clear, ltft is not making this argument for rape jokes. ltft specifically said otherwise:
To all the people who claim to be unaware of the fact that comedians make rape jokes: Your cave dwelling story is not convincing. Guess what, there are comedians out there that make sexist jokes, racist jokes, and some even joke about gas chambers. So just to let you know for future reference.
And of course people who don’t like rape jokes should not go see Tosh. But that’s not the point. What people here would really like is to ban comedians from making rape jokes. But there is this god damn first amendment. That’s why we have posts like this. Because people belief that if you tell somebody how horrible horrible rape jokes are they will finally give up going to listen to them. As if if you had told somebody something for a million times and he did not get it the million and first time would do the trick.
Anotherathiest: I refer you to the law articles I posted on the lack of contradiction between harassment laws and the First Amendment.
@caine
“ryugagotoku, blippity bloppity blorp already. Dimwitted assclown.”
Point taken and well made.
@Illuminata
“Thereby blaming me for the offense you took to something SOMEONE else said. ”
I’m blaming you for rushing to the defense of someone who said something inexcusable to me. And I will reiterate my point: if you’re going to take up the mantle of defending feminism, and then defend inexcusable bullshit, then do be surprised if people come away with a bad opinion of feminism. What part of this is difficult for you?
If I gave you the impression I was accusing YOU of doing that, I apologize 100%. That was completely unintentional. For the record, I don’t think that’s what you were doing. I was trying to explain why other people are assuming such on the part of Tosh’s defenders.
Regarding the rest of your post:
You may be entirely correct re: “100-person model is necessary for good comedy”. But adding that we “just have to live with him” sounds, to my ears, like a statement of privilege. It would be easy to “just live with him” if you (not you personally. the hypothetical you) aren’t the target for his abuse. I completely disagree that we have to “just live with him”. He should be loudly shamed and criticized for his sick display. That’s not damaging comedy in the slightest. It’s an automatic improvement.
Basically, I hear what you’re saying and you may be right. I just strong disagree that such bigotry has to be “put up with” to get good comedy.
Oh goodie. ANOTHER lying asswipe.
Prove it, douchecanoe. Quote ONE PERSON here saying “this should be banned”. or anything even fucking close to that.
What part is bullshit, other than your fuckwitted OPINIONS? That is your problem. She’s fine. Deal with YOUR PROBLEM being a fuckwitted idjit elsewhere.
See, this is why I think it’s a mistake to assume that people coming in here to post Just Sayings are reasonable interlocutors. Because they so often turn out to be this douche.
ixchel, – totally understood. Clearly, I utterly failed to make clear what I was aiming to do. I was genuinely asking the question to point out what I feel is lazy pseudo-comedy – punching down.
You’re a lying asshole. Fuck off.
And how do I, or anyone else, know exactly what our sensitivity is that night? when I am in that mood? with everthing else that happened or didn’t happen on that day? Triggering is not something one can dial up or dial down based on where I will be.
The smell of putrescence, the smell of buned metal, and the smell of burned plastic do not trigger me. The smell of any two in combination sets me up for panic attacks and nightmares. How can I dial this sensitivity up or down when I go for a drive? I have no idea what smells I will encounter (though I do know I will encounter odours)?
I deal with the public every day, including scout groups — cub, boy, girl, daisy, etc. Usually, seeing cub scouts does not trigger memories. Sometimes it does and I do not know why.
So tell me, how do I dial down my sensitivity? How? Be specific? How do I, or anyone else who is triggered by certain input, adjust the gain on our sensitivity?
No. She stated that your continued support for, and endorsement of, using victim blaming to silence those who have been the victim of rape scares her and she would not want to be alone with you.
You have stated that you were raped as a child. So was I. Did you report the crime? If not, why not? I know why I never told a soul (until this blog). I knew two things. First, I knew that my rapist was a pillar of the community, a good family man, a stake holder, a professional and, his word against mine? I would lose. Second, I knew that what happened was my fault — I am to blame for what happened.
Blaming someone who has been assaulted, raped, abused, or harrassed makes it easier for rapists and abusers. It silences victims. It makes them afraid to come forward. This is what Tosh did: he used the threat of rape to silence the woman in the night club. Since you showed up on this thread, you have repeatedly claimed that, because she was a heckler or because she was drunk, she deserved the abuse. You have also repeatedly claimed that she is lying (because, well, women and children always lie, right?).
So I ask again: did you report your rape and, if not, why not? Think about what you are supporting. It ain’t the victim. Which means you are supplying tacit support to those who rape.
@ryugagotoku
I put a link in my #7 comment to Forrest (top of the thread) to a blog that is a good resource for people curious about the basics of feminism, and which links to other resources. Here it is again, just for convenience:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/
It also has an FAQ section, which contains points that you’ve touched on in this thread.
Well, speaking for myself, no. What I’d really like is to live in a world in which rape “jokes” are unthinkable, because rape doesn’t exist. More realistically, I’d like to live in a world where people who make rape “jokes” are shamed in much the same way people like Michael Richards are when they make racist “jokes”.
Hi ixchel @85,
I’m definitely going to shut up after this (and yes, I realize I said that a few posts ago) because my recollection is obviously not helping, but:
-On accepting/criticizing Tosh… I meant it like we have to accept acts like Tosh, even if and after we reject him. I meant it in the sense, ‘Given this model for comedy, people like Tosh will arise frequently. We can criticize and get rid of Tosh, but someone else like him will pop up. And then, when that person has faded or been rejected, another similarly offensive act will appear. If we want to stick with our model, we just have to live with that.’ Does that make sense?
-Here’s where I really wrote very poorly… You mention that you can laugh at something offensive. That was a major portion of Oswalt’s point (I think he put it something like, ‘if there’s no taboo it’s probably not funny’). Instead of saying that Oswalt wanted viewers to turn their sensitivity to offense down I should have said he wanted viewers to hold off on getting angry when they were offended. Or something like that.
Like you, I’ve heard similar ideas before, many of them in this thread. But while I’ve bungled it, Oswalt’s description was easily the most clear and lucid statement of the idea. I’ll see if I can find where I found it, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Well, anotheratheist, you lying fuck? Put your fucking money where your mouth is.
Piece of shit.
ryugagotoku:
Fuck you, cupcake. I didn’t blame you for having been raped. I do blame you for spewing victim-blaming rhetoric. One can be a victim and contribute to the victimization of other people.
And, yes, you creep me right the fuck out with the language you used in your earlier comments about the woman at the club, and I am not going to fucking apologize for my unwillingness to ever hypothetically be anywhere alone with you.
Sure, if we all hold your hand and talk nicely to you. But if we’re meeeaaaannnnn to you, you’re gonna take your ball and go home.
this
Cipher at comment #428 sums up my feelings exactly:
This needs more exposure, arseholes need countering
Since there are no such people here, I can only conclude that
anotheratheist is a liar.
What I would really like is a nice little house by the sea, somewhere quiet without too many tourists. But that aside, no, people here don’t want to ban rape jokes. We would like to make people aware that rape jokes aren’t funny and that those who do find them funny should rethink that a bit. In all, we are asking people to think about what they are doing and possible harm coming from their jokes.
Looks around. Nope, not US, no first amendment. I am now going to ban all the things I don’t like because there is no first amendment to protect innocents from my hate of their feeble sense of humor and atrocities against grammar.
Maybe it won’t make a difference to you, since you are obviously a bit thick, but making people aware is making a difference. Hell, even you might change your mind some day. Those two brain cells floating around your head should collide eventually.
Did anyone actually say “you are a rapist”?
I would make some remark about how subnormal it is to form an opinion of an entire movement based on the actions of individuals within the group, but:
I AM surprised. Because it’s silly.
which is why I slightly disagreed with you regarding doubting his trauma story. How many JAQoffs also manufacture trauma stories to steal sympathy from the people they’re shitting on so that they can go on shitting on them with immunity (they hope)?
You are 100% correct about the chilling effect such doubts will have, though, so I’ll make every attempt to not be so thoughtless in the future. (meaning, I’ll probably think it, but not post it)
Brownian at 2:57 pm,
Me at 2:57 pm,
Hi Illuminata @97,
I didn’t think you misunderstood me but wanted to be sure.
I really am not a good writer and I apologize. Hopefully this is more clear from me @106, but I should have said that, under that model of comedy, we have to live with people LIKE Tosh, and when we shame Tosh to oblivion someone else will unfortunately pop up. Bear in mind, I’m not sold on this model, am just repeating it. But I’m definitely not saying Tosh should get anything like a pass. Actually, I was writing to try to argue other people were not being clear on that distinction and now I’m doing the same thing. Argh.
When did I take up this mantle, dimwit? Where did I defend anything Daisy said, lying sack of shit?
And, you really didn’t need to say, for a third time, that all women are to blame for the actions of one. We get it. You’re an asshole.
And, once again, you’ve already made clear that your support of equality is conditional. So, you’re useless. We’ve lost nothing. Flounce.
I hate to break it to you, but not everyone even knows who Daniel Tosh is, or pays attention to him even if they do know.
Just STFU and slink on out of there, you delicate little prudish PC flower, you. Your trauma, and/or the trauma of millions of people throughout history, is fodder for comedy. Suck it up.
It’s a shitty comedian who attacks people who paid to be part of his audience (whether they knew what his act would be like or not). Especially by way of wishing rape on them, after they overcame a lifetime of social conditioning to stand up in front of a crowd of hostile strangers and say that no, such jokes are not acceptable. Which they aren’t.
mouthyb, could you repost the second link in #19?
But, for the record, Daisy – I don’t disagree with you.
but no worries, because he doesn’t support equality anyway. You know, cuz a woman was mean to him once.
Let me assure you: you’re a vile human being and I’d more willingly watch a Dane Cook/Daniel Tosh double-billing (bleh) than ever spend time with you. You literally picked someone at random from the internet and knowing absolutely nothing about them decided to declare that if we were ever alone that I would rape you. You said you could “determine” this from the “way I’m talking.” So I guess that means I was “asking for it.” If I was a real troll I might say something here along the lines of “way to blame the victim, guys.”
I’m sorry, but you’re all collectively the most astonishing hypocrites I’ve ever met and that comment was inexcusable. You live in a very twisted moral universe to think that because I said that people in comedy clubs are drunk and obnoxious that that makes me a rapist. And then you have the gall to announce that I’m irrational. Please.
@Illuminata
“And, you really didn’t need to say, for a third time, that all women are to blame for the actions of one. We get it. You’re an asshole.”
So now I’m responsible even for things you’ve only imagined I’ve said? God, the stupidity on this board. Really fucking disappointing.
Again, and again: We don’t have the FUNDS for a thought police. Imagine having to round up and jail or fine every douchebag who makes a douchebag joke. And sentence them, or work out a restitutive work plan, who wants that responsibility and headache?
So Tosh isn’t fresh and doesn’t have a new take on rape jokes.
But even if he did, and his goal was to get people talking about a taboo subject, then this thread is an example of that sort of discussion taking place.
One cannot simultaneously claim that comedy is meant to skewer sacred cows and get people to think about issues and then claim that the only acceptable audience response to laugh or leave the conversation.
For shame. There are farm animals who could be eating that straw.
Just can’t stop lying, despite that fact that EVERYONE can read what was actually written, huh. You are, by far, the dumbest fucking troll I’ve ever encountered here. Enjoy your crown, you horrible, despicable, vile piece of shit.
You are gnorant, victim-blaming, sexist and completely dishonest. Go away.
My own position is that we shouldn’t tell women they should be raped.
Just so I know where I stand on your assdouchejerkhats scale, do you agree with that sentiment?
Since, yanno, that’s actually what’s being talked about, rather than anyone’s smug self-righteousness. I mention this just in case someone happens to display that sort of thing.
Not that anyone has.
Oh, no.
Beatrice:
Heh. Exactly. And thank you! I had the same kind of experience here, and I perfectly recognize myself too in the “I support some feminist ideals, I’m for equality, but I would be careful about not aligning myself with those women”. (In retrospect, ouch.)
Discussion here at Pharyngula was one of the important learning experiences I encountered online, and I’m glad I was able to read and think, and read again and think a bit more, without rejecting immediately what was outside my experience and/or comfort zone. It’s not always easy, but it’s rarely not enlightening. Learning about the concept of privilege, for instance, was an eye-opener!
You must have forgot to look in the mirror this moring, since you are the most dishonest person posting here today. Nothing but hypocrisy on your part all day lonh. You know that. But, when all you have is attitude, you must present said attitude instead of saying “sorry, I was wrong, I’ll shut up so I can learn”. People like you are incapble actually admiting you were wrong.
Well, anotheratheist?
Found those quotes yet?
@Redhead
Daisy Cutter has now twice stated that if we were alone, she knows I would rape her. You need to take a good look in that mirror yourself if you’re still defending that statement.
And you are wrong to say that. Er, write that.
A woman, quite bravely, stood up and challenged a comedian by stating that rape jokes are not funny. The comedian chose to threaten her with gang rape rather than behave as a professional. He used the threat of sexual violence to silence her. And succeeded — she fled.
You are defending the choice of the comedian. You are defending Tosh. And they way you are defending his choice is by claiming that the woman made him do it. You have blamed the woman. You have blamed a persona who was threatened with rape.
You are also blaming the person who was threatened with gang rape by assuming she was drunk. Is it okay to threaten a drunk woman with gang rape? How many drinks have to be in her before it is okay to threaten her? Or to rape her?
There are a shitload of men out there who see a woman drinking, or walking alone, or dressed a certain way, or with nice hair, or being a woman and assume that gives them permission to rape her. Because no matter how horrific the rape, someone will blame the victim every fucking time. If it even gets reported.
You have also claimed that she was lying. That she misremembered what happened. Which is also a charge flung at rape victims.
You stated earlier that you were raped as a child. I was too. I know some of what you may have gone through.
Did you report the crime? If you did not, why not? I know why I did not report the crime. I know that my word against an adult was worthless — I would not be believed. I know that it was my fault that I was raped again and again. I was silenced by the cultural acceptance of rape.
And you are contributing to that acceptance by blaming the woman for Tosh’s decision. By blaming the woman for drinking. And by claiming that she lied.
I’m suspecting anotheratheist just had to take a dump somewhere and this thread was handy. I doubt he’ll be back with a baggy for cleanup.
It is a place where people are expected to put forth some effort in educating themselves. Nobody minds if you don’t know anything; what’s aggravating is when people butt in, not just with questions, but with their opinion on How The World Is, and then get touchy whenever anyone tries to tell them they’re wrong and why. And in the meantime, the conversation stops to a standstill. There are blogs I’ve lurked at for years and never commented on, both because I don’t know much about the subject and know my contributions would be stifling at best. And you know what? When I stopped concentrating on trying to figure out what to say and how to say it, I was able to devote a lot more of my brain to listening and learning. Funny how that works.
Let’s see. Medium hat size is about 22 inches circumference, the average porcupine is about two feet long, I’d say two ought to do it if they bend enough. But three would make a cute tricorn version.
sammich scepter to go with the crown?
Funny this is the interpretation your trollish brain jumps to! On second thought, no, not so “funny”…
Can I offer you a sammich?
@Illuminata
Isn’t that how it always is?
Take http://xkcd.com/385 for instance …
Ogvorbis,
In support of your point, I’d like to mention a good friend of mine who was raped as a child. I’ve known him for nearly a decade, heard him make jokes and oblique comments about the situation, and last night was the first time I’d ever heard him say, straight up, that he was raped as a child.
It’s taken him nearly four decades to be able to admit that.
That’s how powerful the silencing mechanisms of victim blaming and victim shaming are.
Also, re: lurking instead of commenting – you can rest assured that if you sit tight long enough, someone else will most probably say the thing you were going to say. Then you can see whether it was a beacon of light or gets ripped to shreds and you can think “whew, glad it wasn’t me who said that”, and learn from someone else’s experience.
And given your anger you have and are showing, she is justified in being afraid of you. Ever think of that? Why don’t you lose the attitude by going away for a few hours. Or, why don’t you just shut the fuck up period like a reasonable and unangry person would do? Otherwise, she have every right to be scared of you.
@Ogvorbis
I don’t really ever talk about my abuse, I generally try not to think about it, and while it is kind of comforting in a strange way that you want to engage me on this issue, it’s not really something I want to talk about and can’t imagine doing so on this forum especially. Haven’t built up a whole lot of good will so far.
I understand what you are saying – I understand the similarities you guys are making between what I said and “defenses” of rape. But I still maintain that the similarities here are superficial and that in this specific context no such thing was intended. Nor do I regard it as a valid inference. It was an issue I was perfectly willing to simply let rest, but now I get a sense that no one will let me simply be wrong – I also have to be a misogynist, a troll, an MRA, a rape-apologist, and a even a potential raper. That’s ludicrous.
Jesus this is stupid as fuck.
ryugagotoku:
In case you’ve forgotten, your first comment here was a textbook example of victim blaming. You immediately assumed that a) the woman was an unreliable narrator and b) she must have done something to “deserve” Tosh’s response.
Afterwards, you proceeded to get very defensive when people called you out on your bullshit as well as using misogynistic language to insult Tosh. Both of these are suggest a fuckton of unexamined privilege, not to mention a creepy attitude towards women’s stories.
That’s not to mention that you tried to dismiss accusations of victim blaming by claiming that victim blaming and condoning rape are equivalent (they aren’t).
With such a fantastic start, it’s no wonder people find you creepy. And the fact that you are a rape victim doesn’t change the fact that you were spouting misogynistic, victim-blaming bullshit trying to defend what Tosh did.
@Redhead
She called me a rapist, and now I deserve it because I got angry at the accusation. Seriously, blame the victim much?
I think my anger is entirely justified here.
I disagree that only shitty comedians engage in this. Dealing with hecklers is part and parcel of being a stand-up; that sometimes means “attacking” an audience member who shouts shit at you, or rather engaging in behaviour that could be perceived as “attacking”, which, given the power differential between “person with microphone on stage being paid to be there” and “person in the audience holding ticket they paid for”, is pretty much anything short of ignoring noises from the audience.
Wit, humility and self-interrogation are, unfortunately, not part and parcel of being a stand-up; hence, instead of comedians who craft routines with care so they are funny, inclusive and thought-provoking, thus reducing to near-zero the likelihood of anyone needing to call out their material as bullshit, we have a circuit full of shit-heads who say repugnant things simply because they KNOW the audience – usually composed of people privileged enough that they have never, will never, or can never experience the trauma being mocked – will laugh at them, and who will launch cruel, vindictive tirades from the stage against anyone who dares impugne their right to trample all over their fellow human beings.
I should say, for the record, that I don’t think what this woman did can really be described as “heckling”.
This is a more apt description.
Anri, thank you for reminding me exactly ‘what we were talking about’. Damn it, I went OT again, didn’t I? It’s a real problem I have.
Funny how folks like ryugagotoku who appears to bully people don’t like being pushed back. And we do push back here. So ryugagotoku, why can’t you leave? Really, why can’t you jut leave? What do you realistically expect to achieve if you stay. We have had your number as being dishonest for hundreds of post now, making it impossible for you to talk your way out of your hole. So, really, why can’t you leave?
In the feeble hope anotherathiest might actually hang around to support something they’ve said:
I think everyone here is aware that there are people who are bigots, and people who pretend to be bigots, and people who pander to bigots. I suspect most of us just think that such people should be opposed when possible.
Um, no, I don’t want to ban him from doing so. I just want him, and his audience, to know that what he’s doing is harmful, hurtful, hateful bullying. If he and his audience is fine with being that, doing that, and supporting that, well then they are within their rights. And we are within our rights to point out repulsive behavior when we see it. Which is what’s happening here.
As opposed to sitting back and saying “Well, boys will be boys, yanno!”, yeah telling people will get better results. Letting people know that doing this kind of thing is bad will at least alert people as to the camp they are supporting. If you’re cool with being on the “Yeah, it hurts women, but who cares – it’s funny!” side of the issue, I want to know that about you as soon and from as great a distance as possible.
Stop making excuses for the behavior – stand up straight and tall and tell women that you think your lulz are more important than battling rape culture. Own it, be be proud of it!
Or… and I know this is crazy talk… think about why you’re not proud of it.
No she didn’t.
Nobody deserves that, so it’s a good job you weren’t subjected to it!
You were accused of being a creepy, angry, victim-blaming misogynist, after which a suggestion was made that spending time alone with you would be skin-pricklingly unpleasant, particularly given your propensity to anger.
You now seem to be adding a lack of empathy, denialism and manipulative lying to the list of traits, all of which are classic sociopathic traits.
So, yeah. I don’t think I’d like to be alone with you in an alleyway either. And I’m a rugby player.
wat
So did Ted Bundy. He was a sociopath too.
Intent isn’t magic. The effects are the same as if it were intended.
Where?
How? Cite the accusation (I don’t believe word you say as you are a confirmed liar and bullshitter) by at least post number, or shut the fuck up like the lose you are should have done a hundred posts ago.
Um, you’re welcome?
I dunno, did you?
Hint: I asked a question directly relating to the topic in my post. Did you answer it? This will help let you know if you’re on topic or not.
You’re welcome again, in advance.
@Redhead
I suppose I’m just posting out of spite now. That probably makes me a troll at this point. I came in with good intentions and have received nothing but ignorant and ludicrous character assassination so far. I don’t know why I’d expect anything different now.
As for bullying: you should go back and reread a few pages: Illuminata has been calling me vile things for a long time now – well before I began “pushing back” myself. Not sure how that makes me a bully.
@ryugagotoku
Strawmanning, projection and absurd hyperbole in three lines. Now that’s a troll that knows how to be economical with words.
Why are you still lying about your “good intentions”? You never had any, as that was obvious from your first post. If you lie about that, what else will you lie about? Think about that while you cease posting.
@ogvorbis
Exactly this. And this is not exclusive to “weak-ass wimminz” either.
A 3rd or 4th (I forget) cousin of mine served with the UN in Bosnia, so did my uncle in fact, and they both struggled with their job, which mostly entailed investigating mass murders. Often families with children.
My cousin has a problem with the smell of certain foods. It triggers his memories of rotten corpses. And the effect is immediate and overwhelming.
Triggering is no joke. It is very serious, and people should not have to be exposed to it unnecessarily.
Sure, that woman should have known that this “comedian” uses infantile humour, and probably should have avoided this or been prepared for the crap she was to get exposed to. But what this guy did went beyond that. He targeted her directly with remarks that would be very triggering if she happened to be a rape survivor, and there is actually a fairly high statistical probability she was.
However you twist and turn this, inside or out, what he did in that moment in unjustifiable. Full stop.
@ryugagotoku:
I just went back, read your stuff and the responses. No accusations of being a rapist (just Daisy Cutter’s “rapist mentality”; which I’d interpret as being someone who thinks rape culture is okay, which….you do seem to be defending by saying that using rape jokes to silence a “heckler” is okay). Lots of victim-blaming and dodging the corrections sent your way. Lots of whining.
You ARE being vile. Piss off like you said you’d do many times already.
@anotheratheist
This is not a strawman even, it’s a straw-giant.
Congratulations. You just won the “dumbest comment of the thread thus far”-award.
Been asked to produce the quotes a couple of times – and since everyone has forgotten already:
post #11:
Implication: you would rape – because you’re a rapist. There’s no other way of interpreting that statement.
post #108:
@FredSalvador 150:
Yes, she did.
ryugagotoku,
I don’t believe you same here with good intentions. You made up a whole little scenario about what really happened, which made that woman either a mean liar or a drunk liar. And even if she’d done it all just because she felt like ruining someone’s evening, she in no way deserved the response she got. You felt the need to paint her in the worst light possible (with absolutely no evidence). There was a little caveat of “yes, rape is bad” but then you went right back to talking about how someone annoying a comedian like that should expect anything they get in return. And that’s why you were accused of victim blaming. The parallels are really obvious.
@Redhead
I’m seriously fucking tired of this accusation. Citation fucking needed. Can no one here see the difference between being wrong and maliciously lying?
Citation needed liar and bullshitter. Your “word” is worthless.
@ryugagotoku
I though you were really, really, really going to fuck off now. Why are you still here?
@Beatrice
Obvious but superficial, and to my mind completely wrong. Again, I’m detecting a failure to see when someone is misguided vs. when someone is willfully mendacious, or acting from malicious intent. And I’ve gotten a lot of those accusations so far.
@Redhead
I gave you the quotes, I gave you the post numbers. Granted you have the ability to scroll up on the page, you should have everything you need to confirm what I just said.
ryugagotoku:
Fair enough. I understand that.
Please note that I did not ask about your experiences. I asked whether you had told anyone and, if not, why not.
I know why I did not report the crime. Even at nine or ten years old, I had absorbed enough of America’s rape culture to know that I would not be believed and would have carried at least some of the blame.
A woman spoke out against rape jokes. Tosh made the decision to threaten her with gang rape. You have, repeatedly, either questioned her veracity or blamed her for Tosh’s decision. Whether someone is harrassed, raped, robbed, murdered, whatever the crime, the victim is not to blame! I could walk down the street with $100 bills hanging out of my pockets and someone would still have to make the decision to rob me.
Tosh made the decision to verbally harrass the woman. No matter how much she had to drink, no matter how mean she was, no matter what she did, it was still Tosh’s decision to threaten her with gang rape. Tosh made that decision. She did not force him to do anything.
When you claim that her actions forced Tosh to react the way he did, you are blaming her for his actions. Just as I know that I would be blamed for the actions of my rapist.
I have no idea if you are a misogynist or not. I have no idea what kind of a person you are. I can only go by what you have written here and I have to share the opinion of another commmenter when I say that you frighten me and I would not want to be alone with you.
No one claimed you were a rapist. You were told that you make (now) two of us very uncomfortable. The version of you that comes across in your comments today scares me and I would never want to be alone with you. Ever.
We can not see intentions on the internet. All we have is what you have written. And you have claimed that Tosh is not to blame because the woman was drunk or the woman spoke during a comedy routine. You have also claimed that she is a liar.
That is all we really have to go on.’
That is the only possible interpretation? Really? Your ‘rapist mentality’ is blaming the victim or accusing the victim of lying. Nowhere did she, or anyone else, accuse you of being a rapist. Not even in the quotes you provide. Rapist mentality does not equal rapist.
Not wanting to be alone with you is a feeling I share with others. No one has accused you of being a rapist. Your willingness to engage in rape apologetics is creepy as hell.
StevoR @ 414
Excellent points. I want to say that I hope I did not give the impression that I, in any way, neither condone what Tosh said nor do I think that the act of rape is in any way funny. I was not trying to mitigate Tosh’s actions in any way. Itft @ 409 showed us some insight into Patton Oswalt’s views on comedians and I really like what I’ve seen and heard from Oswalt, but I don’t entirely agree with his opinion on this subject. I don’t think that people implicitly consent to being challenged, because not all comedians challenge their audiences. I think that it is very understandable that the woman involved in the Tosh incident may not have really known what to expect from Tosh. There are many very successful comedians whose acts contain absolutely no blue material (Bill Cosby and Jerry Seinfeld for example). My sympathies are with this woman. She had every right to be offended. I have to say that I don’t think that I would have done what she did, no matter how strongly I felt about the subject. I say this, because I know that many comedians almost pride themselves on responding to heckling with extremely vicious, vile attacks. Also, the comedian is usually pretty good at what he or she is doing and the comedian has the microphone. It’s a no win situation for most hecklers. This woman was very brave to challenge Tosh when and where she did. I hope that she is not suffering any other attacks from this incident.
That is not what she stated, and your hyperbole and strawmen are noted.
ryugagotoku,
I could have bought the idea that you are just misguided a dozen or so comments ago. Obvious but superficial? There must have been some deeper meaning to that story you made up out whole cloth.
Is that lying fuckbrain still lying ?
@ryugagotoku:
Yeah, and I gave you another way to interpret the “rapist mentality”, meaning you tacitly supported the rape culture by victim blaming the ‘heckler’ instead of saying “rape is fucked up and don’t even joke about it”.
Apparently, interrupting a show is more important a crime than triggering flashbacks or making light of rape; that’s what makes Daisy Cutter’s accusations of “rapist mentality” rather accurate. It’s just mentality, so it’s OBVIOUSLY NOT ACCUSATION OF RAPE.
So let me get this right. You lied, and it has been shown you lied, and yet you have still to offer an apology, and yet when you accuse Daisy of say something you have been unable to provide evidence she said, you get all upset ?
You really are intent on being a vile person ain’t you ? Typical misogynist lying scumbag.
Please understand that this isn’t about “being challenged.” Calling it that is inappropriately euphemistic. This is about survivors being triggered, about people being threatened, and about rapists being validated.
fredsalvador:
There’s a difference between a comic deftly riposting a catcall from some jerkwad in the audience who just wants to ruin everyone’s enjoyment of the performance, and a comic who responds to being called out on their privileged douchebag “humor” by stating that it would be “funny” if the caller-outer were gang-raped.
The latter is what *I* would call an attack. The other is just verbal fencing.
And I am out of here.
This has hit some places I don’t want to be.
‘Bye.
The fact that you can actually say with a straight face “there’s no other way of interpreting that statement” when quite clearly there are, and others have already told you what they are, pretty much proves your rapist mentality, and I wouldn’t want to be alone with you in a BRIGHT alley, and I’m a man.
Truly you are pathetic.
And we have evidence of that shared mentality. He used the “lying bitches” defence after all! And lied when he did so, since even Tosh seems to accept he said what it is claimed he said.
@Ogvorbis
I have not *once* done that. Not once. I keep getting that projected upon me. It’s not true and it’s not fair. Nothing I have said has in any way apologized for the existence of rape. I’m frustrated by the fact that this keeps being projected upon me, and people keep responding to it as if it’s a thing.
The subject is *not* rape. The subject has *never* been about rape. I have never even written a post about rape. My frustration comes from the fact that *anyone* thinks it is a valid argument that because they can extrapolate some sort of superficial similarity between an unrelated argument about behavior in a certain setting and rape apologism, that not only are the arguments the same in such a way as to be interchangeable, but that now it’s fair to simply assert that this is person is a rape apologist. The logic is ludicrous and I regret even climbing down into this mud hole.
What I have engaged in is *not* rape apologism, and I resent the accusation because of its unfairness.
Maaaaaaaaagic.
So your use of the “lying bitches” defence was just pure chance then ?
Oh, and you still not have not apologised for being a lying scumbag.
ryugagotoku,
Wtf? Of course the subject is rape. The comedian you are defending made a rape joke. You made it seem like the woman who complained had it coming. Since we are talking about rape jokes and you come in here all “well, if she didn’t want to be attacked, she shouldn’t have been there/drank alcohol/talked to him” (hint: which is often used to discredit victims of rape) of course people are going to make a connection.
If you don’t want to be alone in an alley with someone because they have a “rape mentality”, does that mean you don’t want to be alone with them because you’re afraid they’ll give you bad fashion advice?
@ryugagotoku’s interpretation might not be the only possible interpretation, but it’s not an unreasonable one.
Guys. She said I had a “rapist mentality” and then said that she wouldn’t want to be in an alley with me. Implication is what? Why wouldn’t she want to be in that alley? Because I might engage in some rape apologism? Please. Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining. She called me a rapist and your collective apologism on this point is ludicrous.
Anotherasshole:
Your mendacity is noted. So is your concern for the First Amendment, which doesn’t cover this issue.
Ryugagotoku:
I think this calls for a nym change!
Liar. A “rapist mentality” isn’t unique to rapists. You think like one: that a woman somehow brings threats of rape and actual sexual violence on herself, no matter how many unconvincing disclaimers you work in.
Your anger started out aimed at the woman in the club and rolled in her direction for several comments. People can scroll up and read what you wrote and what I wrote.
Classic bully: can dish it out like a five-star chef, can’t take a crumb of it.
Maybe not for you, but only because you value Comedy over the safety of
womendrunken lying bitchez. Decent human beings don’t.Ogvorbis, please take care of yourself.
@Matt
Shut up Matt. Really? Just going to pick the easiest trope you can find?
Gee, I wonder where she could get that? Oh, wait, could it be your own comments and the odious rape jokes apologetics they contain?
/snark
That you are shitty excuse for a human. But then you have already made that clear to us.
You have used to tactics of rape apologists more than once. So please, cut the crap. You know what you said, and we know it. Quit lying about it. You used rape apology tactics, and you know it.
So quit fucking complaining when this is pointed out.
And you still have not apologised for being a lying scumbag, you lying scumabag. Until you do, you are are hypocritical lying scumbag.
About hating Tosh–
I did say “almost no one”, which I thought would cover my ass with those who do in fact hate him, but I guess it was unsuccessful. Fair enough.
I myself find it hard to say I hate anyone, or at least anyone whose awfulness is on a level below that of, say, Osama bin Laden. That’s *my* social conditioning, I suppose. I may have to work on that.
@ryugagotoku:
Wait, you never wrote a post about rape? Even when you said you were, yourself, a rape victim? That’s not “about rape”?
What the hell do you mean?
Anyway, sure, you’re not specifically or explicitly defending rape, but rather brushing it off as not that big a deal. You’re saying saying heckling should be the real thing people criticize here, or that the heckler had it coming and shouldn’t have talked, rather than rape culture that lets this thing slide with public audiences. So yeah, you’re “only” incidentally defending rape by accusing the person who stood up to unacceptable rape jokes of being drunk or lying about her experiences. You’re still wrong.
Because she would feel unsafe around you? There are people who have had the opportunity to rape me and have not done so whom I still don’t want to be alone with. It’s because they have shown me that, for various reasons, I need to watch my back around them. People who will use the gambit – and that’s people, general – are not people I am safe around. Sometimes they’re rapists; sometimes they’re abusive misogynists; sometimes they’re harassers; they’re creepy and ignore boundaries; sometimes they’re just manipulative, untrustworthy douches; sometimes they won’t be willing to help you if you need it. All of those things are reasons to not want to be alone with people in alleys, and many of them can be said to have a “rapist mentality”.
Why should I shut up ? You said what you did.
Prentending you did not say that just makes you a lying scumbag, but then we already knew that.
Now I will ask again, why did you use the “lying bitches” defence ? You did use it, you used it knowing they had not lied, so why ?
You have offered no explanation as to why you used the defence, not why you lied about them lying. Since you have no defence to offer, what else is there but you think it is a good defence, and that means you have a rapist mentality.
Your own actions have shown you do.
@Daisy
Fuck you Daisy. I said drunk people at a comedy club aren’t the most reliable witnesses in the world. I didn’t say anything about “women” or “rape.”
No it didn’t. I made some posts about my experiences in Comedy Clubs and the obnoxious people who inhabit them. I didn’t say anything about women.
@LDTR “I myself find it hard to say I hate anyone, or at least anyone whose awfulness is on a level below that of, say, Osama bin Laden. That’s *my* social conditioning, I suppose. I may have to work on that.”
Sure, can’t you tell? There’s so many people to hate and so little time! You better step up your game.
@matt
Define “lying bitches” defense: let me guess – women are unreliable witnesses because they are women? Where the fuck did I ever say that? Post-number please.
You’ve projected that trope onto my argument. I didn’t make it. It’s astonishing that you can’t tell the difference.
You never did offer evidence the two women were drunk. That seems to have been something else you lied about.
Why did you tell that lie ?
Oh, and still not apology for being a lying scumbag I note.
@ryugagotoku
So – people where drunk, it’s therefore ok to abuse them, and they can’t be trusted on giving a true account afterwards?
Noted.
I hope the authorities where you live take proper precautions and make sure you don’t get in situations with other humans without proper supervision.
If you’re at the point of saying ridiculous shit like this, you really need to take a break. I’m not just being condescending – I think you need a break.
A woman speaks up about being threatened with rape by a man, and your first response is, “She’s probably lying.”
@cipher
I feel like you’re stretching to defend a pretty straightforward comment. All the same, none of those can be reasonably inferred from my observation that comedy clubs tend to be infested with obnoxious drunk people. It’s not reasonable to go from that statement down the myriad number of rabbit holes needed to eventually get to the accusation being maintained here – that I have a “rapist mentality.” I’m sorry, that’s bullshit.
You just admitted you used it.
How fucking stupid are you ? Let me remind you:
QED
Now explain why you claimed they were drunk, without evidence, and why you lied about saying you said it.
And you still have not apologised for being lying scumabag.
1. We don’t know that she was drunk
2. Did you see what the other witness (the club owner) said?
Ouch, that isn’t much better
3.
And when the topic is rape, this is a really unfortunate thing to write.
Oh believe me, I don’t need to stretch at all to think of situations that would make me anxious to be around a person. *wry smile* I bothered to tell you about them because when Daisy mentioned not wanting to be alone with you, my anxiety instantly jumped a level at the thought of being alone with you – even though I generally assume gay men, which I already know you are, aren’t likely to rape me.
I’m not a guy. Neither are a lot of others in this discussion. Just saying.
Anyone who actively supports rape culture can be said to have a rapist mentality. This would be you. You are actively supporting rape culture and loudly defending rape jokes. You’re the one willing to posit the women were liars. You’re the one willing to posit the women were drunk. You’re the one who has an endless list of crap you’re willing to put on the women, however, the asshole who joked about rape can’t do any wrong, amirite? Jesus.
I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be alone with you and I know for a fact I could never count on you as a person who is doing their part to make the world a better and safer place for women.
Yes, of course it’s about rape, you feeble-witted ass. Or are you simply talking to yourself this whole time?
ryugagotoku seems to be even more stupid than that mis-named reasonable fellow we had at the weekend. At least reasonable fellow could remember what he had previous said, where as ryugagotoku does not seem to be able to remember what it wrote 5 minutes ago.
@Matt
You’re really a moron Matt. I stated from the beginning that clubs tend charge a two drink minimum. They fully understand that they make their money on alcohol, not on tickets. Seriously, have you never been to a fucking comedy club? People get drunk, they get disruptive. That’s all I fucking said. Nothing to do with women. That’s all been projected onto me because it’s the easiest trope available.
ryugagotoku,
Even if she had been disruptive (for which you have no proof), I don’t care. She didn’t deserve a rape joke.
Ryugagotoku doesn’t strike me as especially stupid. Misogynist, dishonest, manipulative, and creepy, but not especially stupid.
@ryugagotoku:
Fucking Christ, reread your own first comment. It’s defending Tosh and his comedy by saying all hecklers are equally bad, and probably drunk, and thus probably just lying about the rape part being all she objected to. You say she should’ve just left instead of attracting attention, as if it’s her fault, and not an asshole comedian who made light of rape.
Also, since the person in question is a woman….you’re talking about a woman.
And saying she’s probably drunk and lying. And saying that’s more likely and messed up than Tosh being unacceptably blase about rape “joke” threats.
If your defense now is “well, I wasn’t defending rape, I was attacking heckling!” then yes, you’re still deflecting from the real problem here: the way they dismiss rape as something you can joke about without taking shit for it. That you think it’s worth it to say “well, she shouldn’t have heckled” is victim blaming, and pointless, pain-baiting victim-blaming at that.
NO. If anything, it’s been “projected onto you” because of the details of the situation and because of your refusal to acknowledge them. As I already told you on the last page, you need to seriously look at what you’re doing here. In a situation where a woman is threatened with rape by a man, especially in a social context like the one we’re in – where rape jokes are considered okay and habitually defended with misogyny, and where threats of rape are an extremely common weapon to shut women up, and women who are present in this conversation have suffered from that – for you to come in and start off with “She’s probably lying” looks oblivious and tone-deaf at the absolute best.
@caine
False and false. I have not once stated a defense of rape jokes (quite the opposite – I said at the very beginning of this that if the accusation is true, Tosh should be fired). You’re imagining things that never happened. Citation needed.
Nope, not making any sense yet, unless you want to claim the club forced alcohol down the throats of these women.
I’m sure they do.
yes.
I didn’t. The people I was with didn’t.
No, you said they could not be believed because they were drunk.
You have been unable to offer any evidence. So I ask again, why the lie ?
And two drinks ? You think most people will be drunk after two drinks ?
Stop fucking lying you fucking lying scumbag.
ryugagotoku
You have made a ton excuses for the man who told the joke (heckler should expect an attack) and made all sorts of accusations against the woman (she was drunk, didn’t know what she heard, was lying). Why? Why if not to defend the joke? What’s the point in showing her in a bad light if not to defend the joke?
You are probably right. He is just lying about not knowing what he has said, rather than genuinely not remembering.
You know what, everyone who says she doesn’t deserve a rape joke – I agree. His actions are inexcusable, and going by what the club owner said, sounds a bit worst that I initially imagined. What I’m sick of is the assumption that going into the situation with skepticism is a sign of moral deviancy. Now I’m tacitly wandering into the position of trying to defend Tosh, which is the last thing in the world I want to do.
That being said – the character assassination is bullshit. Just because you have a certain trope doesn’t mean everyone who disagrees is in the same category. First I got accusations of being an MRA, then a redneck, then a rape apologist. It’s bullshit.
And now I’m going to flippity flop or whatever for good.
You’re the only one reading this who actually might believe this tripe. If you didn’t want to defend that sorry excuse for a comedian you would just have shut the fuck up. Or displayed some indignation like all the decent humans on this thread.
Just shut the fuck up, and keep away from other humans. There’s nothing to gain but grief from interactions with the likes of you. Go away.
Yet Tosh apoligised (sort of) for saying what he did. He did not deny it. You lied about that of course, since you are a lying scumbag.
@ ryu, from your first comment:
Please explain to us clearly how this is not an example of victim blaming.
@adam
Because of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtjx-yplqTw
Flippity flop, I’m out of here
Oh, and that seconded. I’ve been to a couple of stand-ups and no such shit happened.
There was some interaction with the audience, but it was definitely a positive thing and the performer could build more jokes on it.
In fact, I remember the guy who got little to no applause and a complete silence when he tried to coax the audience into saying something – he was telling fat jokes. Made me proud (of the rest of the audience, not the performer), the silent treatment told him all he had to know.
Oh, and when you claimed that Tosh had been forced to issue an apology by his bosses (something you never bothered to provide evidence for) for something you clearly thought he had not done that was another example of rape apology. Your attitude was clearly that those lying bitches had made trouble for him.
Not all of them do. Not all drinks purchased have to be alcoholic. At least one of these women probably had to drive home. They were watching the opening act, and so they might not have even had much of one drink yet. They may have been among the many many many people who go to comedy clubs who aren’t drunken shouters.
Just admit it, you’re inventing an entire situation out of whole cloth. You have no more to go on about what happened that night than we do. In other words, you’re a liar.
Hyperskepticism. “A comedian known for his shitty, privilege-based humor made a misogynistic, violent joke” is not an extraordinary claim.
ryugagotoku,
I gave you a quote of the second witness. She wasn’t lying. Still skeptical?
@ryugagotoku:
Your “skepticism” was to say that the one whose claims we should be skeptical of is the woman standing against rape jokes, not the rape-joking comedian known for crudeness who claims “he didn’t mean it”.
So yeah, you’re trying to be “skeptical” by taking the middle ground, and committing the fallacy of the Golden Mean by assuming your waffling position is best.
But you’re wrong. Sometimes, only one side has it entirely right. Sometimes, even if one side is maybe slightly wrong, and the other side is incredibly obviously wrong, criticizing the possible slight wrong is just being a contrarian asshole who refuses to address the meat of the issue.
Promise?
Crap.
And Jesus why do we even need a second witness? There is skepticism and then there is just being an asshole who’s hyperskeptical about anything he doesn’t like.
@Daisy
No really, I’m gone. Promise.
Well so far ryugagotoku thinks that the two women were lying, as was Tosh when he apologised (sort of) for what he said.
So both victims and perpetrator agree that was was said to have happened did happen, but ryugagotoku thinks they are all lying, and wants us to believe him, when he is a known liar.
And he wonders why we hold him in such contempt ?
I just laughed out loud.
:)
ryugagotokum
Too bad you never explained why you made up that whole scenario for which you had no proof.
Without offering an apology ?
You really are scum ain’t you ?
Still a lying piece of shit I see. Why can’t they ever stick to the flounce? No even five fucking minutes.
I don’t disagree with any of this; my original post doesn’t make that clear, and it should.
When a person has proven their personality to be vapid, puerile and misogynist, I think it’s okay to hate them “as a person” at that point. Some people are not good people. Some people are bad people. This needs to be acknowledged. Rehabilitation, and thereby reconciliation, is possible (in most instances), but that doesn’t delegitimise the act of hating them “as a person” in the first place.
Gnumann, don’t let anyone ever tell you you’re a humorless twat.
Flippity flop guys.
What a fucking moron.
Are you gone yet?
Link repost from earlier, UC Davis law review article about harassment and the First Amendment:
http://lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu/issues/29/3/symposium-dev-free-speech-doctrine/DavisVol29No3_Perea.pdf
Ah, the sexist insult, from some who claims not to be sexist.
And I thought you said you were going ? Care to explain why lied yet again ?
Was it skeptifem that said this? “Nothing wastes my time like a dude.”
Feeling that, right now.
ryugagotoku, stick the fucking flounce. Or is that yet another thing you’re lying about.
Rey Fox, been gone 20 posts now. Can’t you read?
So, the answer is “no” then?
Why not? People are allowed to be completely fucking wrong.
5… 4… 3… 2… 1…
Indeed. Staggeringly slow. I wonder if he’s realized that “She may genuinely believe that she heard rape jokes and was threatened with rape. At the same time, her perception may be soaked in alcohol and wounded ego.”
is exactly the same logic that leads rape apologists to claim
‘She may genuinely believe that she was raped. At the same time, her perception may be soaked in alcohol.”
because, you know, bitchez lie. If you search it on google there’s like millions of hits so it’s totally a thing.
You don’t know Gnumann! Boo-hoo-hoo!
Seriously though, somewhere out there there’s a rapist who needs plausible deniability. Better go lend a hand, ryugagotoku!
Here’s a story about a cat abuser who also had a presence on the internet.
[Notices ryugagotoku’s presence online. Makes the obvious inference.]
Sociopath histrionics off the port bow! Man the foam guns!
Beatrice
Just clarifying and QFT.
Beatrice:
I wonder if our troll was aware that what he was basically arguing for the kind of strict interpretation of sharia law that operates in Saudi Arabia? “The testimony of one man equals that of two women”, etc.
「龍が如く」ですよ？
冗談ですか？
I doubt he is bright enough to be aware of that, but I am pretty sure it would not distress him to learn of it.
No, the easiest trope available is that she’s a drunk liar.
You seem to be honestly not getting it. The fact that you jumped to the conclusion that she probably was drunk is sexist. The fact that you jumped to the conclusion that she was probably wrong is sexist. The fact that you jumped to the conclusion that Tosh was probably harmlessly bantering back to a heckler is sexist. At every opportunity, at every point in the narrative, you have strained the accounts of what happened to favor the man who was the bully dishing out rape threats over the woman who reported that it happened, EVEN after it was made clear that her account was correct. That is straight-up misogyny right there, and it’s the most insidious kind because you don’t even realize you’re doing it. You are automatically favoring the man and his side of things over the woman and her side of things, because you automatically think he’s probably right and she’s probably wrong. That’s the most basic kind of sexism there is, and the fact that it centers around a story of rape means that your defense of him is a defense of rape culture, which is inclusive of the ideas that women are usually making it up and men are the rational trustworthy ones.
I’m not sure how to make it more clear.
Woman says:
“Hey, this guy made a rape joke, and then I said rape jokes aren’t funny, and then he said it would be funny if a bunch of guys in the room gang-raped me right then and there.”
Your response:
“Sounds like you were drunk to me. And overreacting. And he was just putting you in your place like anybody would.”
Does that help?
Rey:
This ^. Back in my clubbing days, I didn’t drink alcohol at all. Sure, I had drinks, they just didn’t have alcohol in them.
It could also be you are an angry misogynist creep and she doesn’t want to be near you. which is my interpretation. You overread the statement. More lies and bullshit from the confirmed liar and bullshitter. Typical of true trolls.
Why? Would anybody do this? It makes no sense?
How is humour a characteristic of a female reproductive organ?
And how can a person be a female reproductive organ?
Ah – my bad.
Since I’m apparently bereft of an ability to laugh at grave treats – you make a misguided attempt at humorously slurring me.
There’s some ground rules for humour I’m lead to believe.
The first one is that it’s supposed to be fucking funny.
The second one (really an extention of the first) is that there’s supposed to be some connection between the persons participating in said humour.
This is where you fail, as you’ve clearly demonstrated that you’re not a person with whom connections are desirable.
No worries – I’m a big fan of physical humour, so we can find some use for you even though you’re not funny as a person.
@ ryugagotoku;
I know that others have already covered this, but Ms. Daisy Cutter, Gynofascist in a Spiffy Hugo Boss Uniform did not call you a rapist at any point. She said that your consistent victim blaming mentality – and yes, assuming that a woman who objects to a heinously misogynist rape joke must be drunk or otherwise unreasonably heckling with no evidence is victim blaming – meant that she was afraid of being alone with you or someone like you, because she thought you may have a rapist’s mentality. There is a very good reason why someone who seems to be acting as an apologist for rape culture would ring all kinds of alarm bells for women, and that reason is called Schrodinger’s Rapist.
Simply put, a woman has no way of knowing if that man following her into an alley is just some guy walking home, or a predator stalking her. She cannot tell if the bloke who gets into the elevator with her at 4AM to invite her for ‘coffee’ is just some clueless dood who is trying his arm and will (probably) back off when he doesn’t get a warm reception, or is the kind of guy who won’t take no for an answer.
Rapists have no set appearance or manner – they aren’t always shifty looking types in trench coats hiding in the bushes (a trope that is also often highly racist, painting te only ‘true’ rapes as the rape of a virginal white girl by a monstrous black attacker). They don’t have convenient horns and a uniform taste in trident fashion accessories by which they may be easily identified. Any man a woman meets could be a rapist – a fact that she must constantly be aware of, doubly so in a society that constantly reiterates the toxic meme that women who don’t take sufficient precautions, who aren’t aware enough, bear some or all of the responsibility in the event that they are raped – a culture that makes an artform out of blaming the victim.
With all men presenting a possible risk, and there are no obvious physical tells of a rapist, all a woman is left to go on is behaviour. If a man consistently champions some elements of rape culture – as you have by consistently attempting to place the blame on the woman who was the recipient of this vile rape ‘joke’ throughout this thread – then it is reasonable for a woman to worry, to an even greater degree than normal, that this guy might be the guy.
The guy who thinks he is entitled to the bodies of women.
The guy who thinks that ‘no’ actually means ‘yes’.
The guy who thinks that all women ‘want it really’, and are just too prudish to admit it to themselves.
The guy who thinks that the best thing you can do with a lesbian woman is apply ‘corrective rape’.
Ms. Daisy Cutter was not saying definitively that you are a rapist – she was saying that, by your behaviour on this thread, you are setting off a whole lot of alarm bells; ticking all too many of the boxes that would be ticked by that guy.
It is your own behaviour that causes women – who are told every day that they must be vigilant – to look twice at you. To wonder if, maybe, you might do more than just engage in proppong up the rape culture, given the chance. That is a risk they cannot afford to take.
I can see that you feel outraged and hurt because you think that you have been accused of being a rapist (even though in actuality you haven’t), but try to imagine what it is like to go through every day of your life having to constantly watch your back, knowing that any man you meet could be that guy, and if you let your guard down, even for a moment, and you are raped, then the entirety of society is just waiting to jump down your throat – to mansplain that it is all your fault for putting yourself in that position/wearing those clothes/having that second drink/leading him on – putting you on trial as much or more than they do your attacker.
Try to put aside your outrage for a moment and empathise with what living like that might be like. You say that your are an innocent victim of being wrongfully accused of being a rapist. That didn’t happen, but even if it did, can’t you see how your behaviour here is at the very least going to cause every woman that reads your comments to wonder why you are so invested in dismissing the woman who called out Tosh as ‘sanctimonious’ and/or a drunkard?
You have stated that you are a rape victim. I do not know you, so I am going to take you at your word. As a rape victim, try to put yourself in the shoes of women, in particular rape surviviors. Would you feel comfortable around someone who constantly made excuses for expressions of a culture which in myriad ways told you that you were to blame for your own rape? Would you feel safe alone with them? You don’t know they are a threat to you, bit you also don’t know that they aren’t – would you be happy to take the risk anyway?
I am sorry if this post has been triggering for you (or anyone else, for that matter) – that was not my intent. I am simply asking you to put yourself in the shoes of someone like Ms. Daisy Cutter, and to see how your own actions and posts on this thread could seem highly suspect.
@253:
There’s a lot of crossover between far-right nutjobs and Islamists in general, particularly when it comes to issues of gender, orientation and adherence to dogma.
TRIGGER WARNING
I recall a certain white nationalist saying that victim support services should be witheld from young British women who are abused, gang raped and forced into prostitution by Pakistani gangs in the UK, and any woman who is married to a non-white man should be refused access to domestic abuse shelters. Apparently these women should know better than to associate with non-white men, which means their suffering is their own fault – not only that, but by not preventing groups of grown men from violating them/ defying white nationalist sentiment and exercising free will in their choice of partners, they have somehow brought shame on their community.
Which seems like a very Wahhabist thing for a self-declared Islamophobe to say.
{HUGE TEAL DEER AHEAD. BEWARE}
I’m going to post all of this. I’ve been trying to comment and follow this but I’ve been triggered by it. The stupid rape apologist and the fact that my Roomie is a fan of Tosh is not helping.
Da faq?
We’re talking about an asshole make rape jokes and rape threats. How the fuck is this not about rape? What thread have you been reading?
Oh wait, let me guess. You came in here to say “Wait! We don’t know what really happened. She’s probably just a drunk lying bitch who said she didn’t remember what happened! It’s just a joke, it’s not about rape!” Well, here’s the thing she said she didn’t remember what he said or happened after the rape threat when she was fleeing from the club with her friend. Nice way to lie about that.
Also, we aren’t saying she was raped, but this most certainly is about rape. It’s about how society treats rapes and rapes victims and how its so funny to threaten someone with rape. This is fucked up. You came in claiming the victim was lying and/or drunk and was to blame for Tosh saying that since she should have just stayed silent and left.
Deny the fact that you’re being a rape apologist all you want, it’s clearly been written out in your comments.
I hope one day you look back on this and regret this shit you pulled here. For now you’re just a fuckwit rape apologist.
I wouldn’t feel safe around you either since you’d blame me if someone threatened me.
All of your comments here boil down to this:
“Yes, Tosh is an asshole, he’s not funny. But I don’t care about that. I don’t want to talk about that. Let’s talk about how I’m being skeptical about this drunken heckler and how she’s should have kept her mouth shut. Heckles get abused and everyone knows that. She’s unclear about what happened and it’ because of being drunk, lying or an ego problem to make it all about her. I don’t care about the threat. Hecklers get abused, end of story. Yeah, yeah sure, this was out of line but who gives a fuck about rape jokes! It’s a not big deal! She’s a lying drunken bitch, let’s just ignore this it isn’t worth the time. No I’m not being a rape apologist, I just think we shouldn’t talk about rape joke being inapproipriate or not. It doen’t matter, bitch should have just been silent and left. I’m new to feminism and I’m a rape survivor, be nice to me! It doesn’t matter what I say you have to be nice to me!”
Proof? There’s plenty.
#317 of the first page:
#335 of first page:
#361 of first page:
———————-
Intent isn’t fucking magic.
You came into a thread talking about rape culture, rape jokes and rape apologist. You went forth to blame the woman for speaking up, you talk about her being a drunk lier, you don’t care or want to talk about the rape threat against her and say “maybe her perception of what happened is wrong and he didn’t threaten her.
You talk like a rape apologist and are engaging in it. Doesn’t fucking matter if you are just stupid or ignorant about feminism. Go fucking read and enlighten yourself. Until then you are a fucking rape apologist and NOT fucking helping.
Because your “skeptism” shows moral deviancy. You are blaming the victim calling for extra evidence for an ordinary claim. Tosh himself admitted it was wrong in is not-apology so why are you calling into question the victims character and state of mind?
You deny that she’s even a victim. Being threatened with gang rape in a room full of people laughing is very scary. It’s panic inducing and she has every right to feel threaten, call it what it is (a threat and harassment) and not have to justify how many drinks she’s had when a motherfucking asshole threatened her with rape.
What fucking part of this do you not get?
On, and incidentally, when someone is drunk, their judgement and cognition are impaired, NOT eliminated.
A drunk woman can still report a rape threat, rape joke, or actual rape with utter, complete, reliable accuracy.
The question of the reliability of the account is assessed, as with all others, by independent corroboration, which in this case was given by Tosh himself.
And once that corroboration has been obtained, the blood alcohol level of the woman in question becomes UTTERLY IRRELEVANT IN ALL RESPECTS (if it ever was).
Some peoples’ psychological flaws lead them to find rape jokes funny. Some peoples’ psychological flaws leave them unable to find rape jokes funny. Neither group is the more flawed.
Yes it is, and the accusation is completely fair.
And what you really resent appears to be the fact that in this particular forum the privilege to engage in rape apologism with impunity has been taken away from you.
Oh look, someone else showed up to not read the thread and perform a little false equivalence. Yay.
Hey maxdevlin, feel free to read the ten odd research studies I’ve linked to. There is not an equivalence between those two groups the way you postulate it.
@maxdevlin
Are you fucking kidding me?? People who think rape jokes are ok, because they are doing their utmost best to uphold rape culture, are THE SAME as people who are triggered by rape jokes, because they are survivors?
You really think both sides have psychological issues, and both sides are equally guilty?
FUCK OFF!
Ryu came in and invented a story–a demeaning and sexist story–about the woman who objected to being threatened with rape.
He just straight up LIED about who she was, what she said, and why she said it.
Anyone who’s that capable of lying is totally untrustworthy. And the fact that he’s so dedicated about it, and repeats the lying behaviors subsequently, as he tries to gaslight everyone in this thread into believing that the fact that the person doing the “heckling” was female and the subject of this “heckling” was rape went totally unnoticed by him, only confirms this impression.
So yeah. Chalk me up as another person who would be extremely wary being around Ryu.
Let’s see. The first group contributes to rape culture. The second… nope, I’m not seeing the flaw.
Except maybe having patience to deal with this shit again. It’s a flaw because I should go to bed instead. It’s been what, fifteen minutes, since the last shithead finally re-re-re-re-reflounced.
You’re saying it’s a flaw to not find rape jokes funny? You’re saying it’s just a difference of opinion and nothing to do with the systematic hatred of women and all things feminine? It has nothing to do with jokes about rape a way to keep the status quo of sexist society?
We aren’t talking about whether or not you like Garfield, we’re talking about rape jokes and threats. It’s not the same fucking thing to disagree on these issues.
What the every loving fuck is wrong with you?
And just for the record: there IS a tiny difference between saying “You have raped in the past, I am certain of it,” and “I don’t trust you farther than I can throw you.”
Anyone who get’s the “you’re a rapist” accusation from the latter statement… doth protest too much, methinks.
Which is another red flag.
Ah, MD=mendacious delusional. Well known fuckwitted misogyist troll…
And just what in the fuck is wrong with you, Cupcake? Because something is most certainly wrong.
Rape is never funny. Ever.
Holy fuck.
He could have said “lighten up you dumb bitch” and even THAT, VERBATIM, would have been a better response. Well, I suppose “less bad” is a better way to put that.
Thinking she was overreacting, ok, fine, he can think that. I don’t agree, but he can think that and do his act. But turning her into part of the joke? Seriously… WHAT THE FUCK.
Michael Richards was wrong, very much so, but he wasn’t anywhere close to as wrong as this.
I give comedy a much larger amount of leeway on these topics than I do most other forms of expression. But there’s a limit. Richards crossed it. Tosh catapulted over and is still in the air.
Somehow I doubt we’ll get a Jason Alexander style actual apology here.
Maxdevlin, go to sleep in a bed of decaying porcupines.
Thanks, mouthyb.
Does this rape joke dichotomy apply to racist jokes, too?
Let us see chigau.
Whatdiya know!
Janine:
Ooooh, I like it!
Janine
Great! I have some good® ones from my youth.
Wait, do Newfies count as a “race”?
Trying to stay flounced, but you guys have dedicated so much time to me… one more post and I’m going to quit lurking and go do something productive.
When I initially posted, the comedy club owner hadn’t yet said the “raped by 5 guys” thing. My original post was not about gender or women. It was about the power dynamics of a Comedy Club. Before the subsequent revelations about his statements, if you would have shown my original assessment to *any* working road comic in America, I *guarantee* you 9 out of 10 would have said this was a fair hypothesis. You want to know why? Because they’ve all been there. That kind of shit happens all the time. Maybe you have to know that world, I don’t know…
My initial assessment was based on the thought that, while Tosh is a hack, he’s the special type of mass-produced hack who titillates the audience with just enough semblance of “edginess” that they feel satisfied, without ever actually doing something outrageous. He’s perfectly suited for 12 year old audiences that way – but his real profitability comes from his ability to know where the line is, to make it look like he’s crossing the line, without ever really doing any line crossing.
In other words, I’m approaching this question as a working road comic might – you guys are looking at it through the lenses of feminism. My ultimate point is that *anyone* who’s spent any amount of time in this world knows the power dynamic, knows how it works, knows how wounded egos take a kernel of offense and build a mighty edifice on a slight foundation.
But it does appear that I was wrong. And I’ll admit it. I misread the situation because I didn’t think Tosh was stupid enough to cross the line here into the inexcusable – I thought that was where his profitability was, and that’s the game that he plays.
So let me just state for the record, given the statements of the manager that Tosh stated “she must have been raped by 5 guys” – that I was totally wrong in my initial assessment. This was genuinely an egregious offense, and if Comedy Central is not doing something, they should. And that’s all I have to say on the matter.
I don’t believe you.
You do realize that is a clear text book example of strawman? a 13 hour long strawman?
For many people with food two drinks doesn’t exactly equal plastered. The policy also is OBVIOUSLY not “alcoholic drinks”…I have gone to comedy clubs and satisfied the requirement with diet coke as a DD. Hell some clubs have taken food orders instead of two drinks because the cost is greater. You’re either wrong or lying.
As stated there are numerous jokes that have used rape in them that I have found funny…None that I can think of were actually making fun of rape though. Even if I found one funny that doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s inappropriate.
I pointed this out earlier, ryugagotoku. You whined that the people here . Yet you were willing to base your argument against her on .
Do you know her?
Do you see the fucking problem here?
*headdesk*
See, ladies? Always make sure you got a
malereliable witness.Just get the fuck out, ryugagotoku.
No, you are approaching this as an MRA troll/rape apologist would. Don’t flatter yourself. You have nothing original, just Yawn typical bullshit and apologetics. Boring and insipid.
Beatrice:
This is the same exact crap Blackford was pushing in regard to Egate. “”
*Spits* on anyone who would use this shit to justify their toxic misogyny.
SUBSEQUENT revelations?
The revelation was in the original post.
Oh, of course. It doesn’t count unless the male club owner makes it.
Pathetic.
Just remember, ladies: two of you are not reliable witnesses, but one man is!
That information was in the original story. Nothing “subsequent” to your comments about it.
Fuck, you still can’t see it. You are stating, over and over again, that her word was not to be believed. That it was not true to you until a particular man corroborated it. That is Sharia law – no woman is to believed unless she has male witnesses. Please, for the love of the worldwide porcupine shortage, stop and reflect on that for a few minutes.
Tetris sucks?
Tetris
Mario
Angry Birds
Sonic*
Bust-a-Move
Dr Mario
Portal
Harvest Moon
Blah blah blah.
It’s a horrendous strawman and I do’t even agree with censoring violent video games.
I do partially question why there’s an audience for Manhunt though…
A working road comic might have paraphrased George Carlin with “picture Daffy Duck raping Porky Pig” as a rejoinder regarding whether or not rape jokes can or cannot ever be funny.
That might have just been justifiable. What Tosh actually said was not.
In fact Tosh could have said almost anything else, and it would have been better.
@Amphiox
AHEM! It was Elmer Fudd!
And the rest of the bit was mocking the audience “I know what you’re thinking…Elmer deserved it! He led Porky on!”
*Sonic actually did suck
The AV Club did use a sexist trope that excuses rape as a funny title.
Daniel Tosh was just asking for it by joking about rape like that
Sadly, the conclusion was a cop out; she should have quietly left.
All of Daniel Tosh’s nastiness aside, I just have to say…
…this woman has an awesome attitude and I applaud her.
Once again, due to that tricky time zone thing, I am way behind. I was struck by this, Forrest, way back at 386 of older comments.
So this commenter wants to know things, and therefore needs to ask questions about things in a thread in Pharyngula about those things. Naturally, nothing is explained in any of these threads. It’s all a mystery and the poor person must ask. No one ever explains. Nor can information be gleaned by reading and drawing inferences. Nope. Not here.
/sarcasm
Could it be that is why such questions are met with a complete lack of enthusiasm? I can recall first reading comments here and learning pretty damned quick what was meant by all kinds of phrases. PZ also has these things — oh what are they again? posts? — which also give some information. [OK, a teensy bit more sarc there.]
Sure sometimes a question is needed, but then it usually comes with the commenter’s view, showing some understanding and showing where xe feels xe may have gone wrong. Well, the serious commenters do, the ones who actually have a question. Such people may still not agree with the responses, but at least they are trying to find out BEFORE they announce how wrong everyone else is.
OK, I feel better now.
I see. Carlin flipped his audience’s expectations by turning a rape joke into a rape joke joke.
This would make it, IIUC, a classic example of what good humor actually is supposed to be.
@ Ing #293:
Raving Rabbids? ^^°
That is why Carlin was a master at his craft and Tosh is not. A Journeyman should not attempt the Sisten Chapel and all but the most skilled Comedians should not attempt to tackle the hyper touchy subjects.
@Irendelse
I don’t like minigame collections but if you say so…
Again though, I’m the sissy gamer who plays the good route…I picked up Prototype and am slightly annoyed that the game sort of prevents me from taking a path of sparing Civilians but I guess not all games have moral choice systems -_-
I don’t agree with Tosh, or the joke, and can only imagine how the girls could’ve possibly felt, a feeling women should never have to feel.
But a comedy show where an entertainer is being paid, given a microphone, a stage, lights, etc. with a crowd there to see his brand of humor seems to me a bad place to have a debate about what is and isn’t funny.
Yeah fuck you too.
Why do this?
The newest generation of comedians are apparently fucking sniveling cry babies. In my day it was expected that you’d have to put up with a heckler or audience revolt if you sucked. Apparently now they all demand coddling.
Just want to let you know, somethingnew, there is nothing new about what you wrote. It is the same old bullshit.
Here’s why you shouldn’t.
Yeah totally, she should have just shut her mouth and then everything woulda been just fine.
You realize that’s what you’re saying right?
I just thought of an other rape trope that I could mock here but I am afraid it is just too painful.
(Adam, I know you were snarking. Just trying to expand on the point.)
Ing: Gerund of Death
QFT
Also, if you’re into small computer games, Knytt and Knytt Stories.
Tosh should have just sat back and thought of LA.
You aren’t “somethingnew”, you’re the same old shit. Again. ‘Girls’. ‘Women’. Which is it? Here’s a hint: they aren’t children.
A debate? There wasn’t a debate. A woman spoke out a truth: rape isn’t funny. It isn’t, and any comedian with an ounce of wit could have easily handled that situation without resorting to a rape threat. This would have required intelligence and wit, however, and if you are douchescum who happens to think rape is suitable comedy material, you’d lack both those items.
Didn’t it use to be a point of pride and merit to be able to play the Apollo? WTF happened where now Comedians think the audience owes them unadulterated support?
A place and situation where someone is trying, professionally, to be funny, is a bad place to have a debate about what is and isn’t funny?
So a science lab is a bad place have a debate about what is and isn’t a good application of the scientific method?
Ing #306
I haven’t been to a Comedy Club for 15 or so years and that’s what I remember.
The stand-up person expected and even depended on audience response to guide their gig.
If there was nothing but BoyScout leaders they stopped saying “fuck”.
If it was nothing but RigPigs they said nothing but “fuck”.
Thinking on this… most of that audience was happy to have rape jokes, likely because most of them knew Tosh’s shtick and went there to hear it. Which means, this woman spoke up while vastly outnumbered by a hostile crowd; and that crowd turned on her and her friend immediately, with Tosh’s direct encouragement. He TURNED THE CROWD ON HER. No wonder they left… that was incredibly frickin’ brave, to speak out.
So a science lab is a bad place have a debate about what is and isn’t a good application of the scientific method?
Is the middle of a movie in a movie theater full of people there to see that movie a good place to discuss whether it was a good movie or not?
Yes, because a movie is just like a live act.
You are failing your moniker.
Unless you are trying to be ironic.
Is the middle of a thread about a rape threat a good place to debate audience etiquette?
somethingawful:
Have you ever been to the movies? Seriously.
You’re wrong, and your viewpoint is authoritarian.
The woman made a spontaneous act of protest.
Protests often occur where people are being paid and other people expect to procure commodities and services. Places of work and business are obvious locations for protest.
Maybe. That depends. Is the movie director in the audience today?
That’s so absurdly stupid it must be intentional.
Ok here’s a fun story. Friends took me to see Dark Knight. Friends also keep me on a short leash so I don’t start mocking movies if I judge them and find them wanting. So we are watching the previews and here’s one for what looks like a good suspenseful movie. People trapped on an elevator…one of them is a monster or a killer….Everyone seems to be nodding along into it. Then up comes the words
FROM FILM MAKER M NIGHT SHYAMALAN
“AAAAAAAAH SHIT” I blurt out in disapointment…and the entire theater bursts into laughter.
You’re one of those idiots who applauds at the end of a movie aren’t you?
somethingnew
Have you been to a movie theatre recently?
Nobody ever shuts up.
You aren’t “somethingnew”, you’re the same old shit. Again. ‘Girls’. ‘Women’. Which is it? Here’s a hint: they aren’t children.
I never claimed to be something new, it’s just a user name. I applaud your wit though.
I don’t think of them as children. When I used the word “girls” I wasn’t thinking of children, I was thinking of females. I think a lot of people speak this way without thinking about it, and I appreciate you pointing it out. I’ll try harder to make sure I don’t do that any more.
A debate? There wasn’t a debate. A woman spoke out a truth: rape isn’t funny. It isn’t, and any comedian with an ounce of wit could have easily handled that situation without resorting to a rape threat. This would have required intelligence and wit, however, and if you are douchescum who happens to think rape is suitable comedy material, you’d lack both those items.
She wanted to engage a comedian during the middle of his show. If we were having a conversation about audience etticate, it seems your stance would be that it’s always okay to stand up and interrupt a performance as long as what you are saying is true?
I never claimed Tosh was witty or intelligent, or his sense of humor was.
Ing:
*snortle!*
Appropriate reaction, if you ask me.
Years ago, I went to see one of the Star Trek movies. (I know. I was being sociable.) It was one where Iman was a shape changing villain. And Shatner was hitting on her. I could not help it, I blurted out “Kirk the hound!”. The people around me laughed.
I went to a movie last week for the first time in years. It annoyed the shit out of me how inconsiderate a few people were talking the whole time.
And no, I’ve never applauded at the end of the movie.
Your complaint is authoritarian.
It can be okay if the performance is socially destructive, i.e. if the performer is glorifying rape.
@Ing
Full disclosure, I applauded unapologetically at the premieres of all three Lord of the Rings movies, and more recently after seeing The Avengers. I plan to do so for The Hobbit as well.
What can I say? I’m a fan.
Ing:
Appropriate truth! I would have laughed.
I smell straw burning…
Standup comedy isn’t a freakin’ chamber music recital. That was live audience feedback.
somethingrotten:
God you’re an idiot. If I was seeing the ballet and a dancer missed a cue, I wouldn’t shout “ha HA!”
But when it comes to any sort of like Tosh’s rape threat (misogyny, homophobia, racism, what have you), it is absolutely appropriate to protest. What he said reinforces rape culture. What he said supports rapists and excuses rape. What he said encourages violence against women. People have every right to be outraged and speak up to put a stop to that shit.
Why is this so fucking hard to grasp?
And for fuck’s sake, if you’re resorting to threats of violence against a heckler, you have no fucking business being on that stage.
Then stay at home, you authoritarian worshiping dipshit. Use Netflix or rent.
None of your stupid ass excuse will fly here. You’re yet another apologist, shoring up rape culture at the cost of people everywhere.
ixchel
Thanks, it’s nice to be able to have a conversation without saying “fuckyou” being called or referred to as an “asshole” and “douchescum”
… And tone trolling.
How fucking predictable.
By debating audience etticate, I am in no way justifying what followed.
I don’t condone rape, rape jokes, or Tosh making the women who spoke up during his show being the target or rape jokes.
[meta]
Jabbering troll jabbers.
(something very, very old by now)
Specimen, can you even define this thing you call ?
No, you’re just saying that she should have sit down and shut up.
Fuck you, asshole.
So should audience members expect that there is interaction between hecklers and comedians that the comedian has “well-honed” answers to, or should audience members expect to sit quietly and show no reaction whatsoever other than applause?
Etiquette.
You are saying rape jokes should not be challenged.
Time for a quotation:
(Everyone reading down to here knows where I got this from, no?)
Dr. Audley, I’m new to this whole forum conversations thing. I just find it easier to be open minded about the people who disagree with me when they aren’t so hostile and vulgar.
I agree with what you said, but starting off with insults would make most people not even think about what you’re saying. the content of your post was valid, I just don’t think calling me an idiot strengthened any of the following content.
I didn’t think I said anything to condone his behavior, or that the female that was targeted deserved what Tosh did.
Regardless of whether the topic is rape or not, I find the discussion of when it’s okay to go against social norms as far as audience members are concerned, and some of the comments are already having an effect on my point of view.
I started out condemning Tosh, I don’t think the woman deserved what happened. I don’t approve of rape, rape humor. So there is no debate there.
But I started thinking about what is expected of audience members, and I tried to bring that up without condoning Tosh, or blaming the woman that spoke up.
Note the two sentences I’ve bolded. I agree with both of them, though the second one and less important one is dependent on the first.
So, if a woman should never have to feel that way, then what’s the obvious solution? (Hint: it involves not saying the thing that makes a woman have a feeling that women should never have to feel in the first place.)
Unless you have a better solution that doesn’t involve amending that word ‘never’?
Weed Monkey:
It’s even worse– somethingdouchey is saying that
When you said:
It’s not even absurdism at this point; it’s a distraction from the real issue, pure and simple.
Many people here find it easier to be open minded about people who disagree with us when they aren’t hiding behind thin veneers of civility so that they can spout seriously vile thoughts under the cover of nice polite language.
This is not possible to do. Don’t waste everybody’s time trying to do it.
What it’s going to lead you to do is to continually assert that the woman was in the wrong to assert her right not to be made to feel the way that women should never have to feel while trying to convince yourself that’s not what you’re doing, and everyone will be very mad at you.
I’m going to say this for our mutual benefit. Your next step here should be to say that you’re going to shut up and read a lot now. If you continue to argue, we will all have a very unpleasant time. And I’ve seen how this goes down way too often to have any reason at this point to suspect it’s going to go any differently with you.
Your call, of course.
Note the two sentences I’ve bolded. I agree with both of them, though the second one and less important one is dependent on the first.
So, if a woman should never have to feel that way, then what’s the obvious solution? (Hint: it involves not saying the thing that makes a woman have a feeling that women should never have to feel in the first place.)
Unless you have a better solution that doesn’t involve amending that word ‘never’?
You make a good point, I don’t quite know the answer to that. I don’t support censorship, and that path seems to be a slippery slope.
What is the answer? I don’t have a definite answer of that. We don’t have to watch his shows, or attend his shows live. We can petition to comedy central to cancel his show. We can bring attention to his brand of humor (which is obviously already occurred) and try to show others how this is destructive.
Is censorship the answer?
Specimen:
Obvious bullshit.
Obvious tone trolling.
That’s because you imagine you had something worthwhile to say.
(, eh?)
Did you even notice the category tags?
Here: Posted in Equality, Stupidity
You want to chatter about a different topic, take it to TZT.
You want to chatter about a different topic, take it to TZT.
[meta]
Specimen:
Obvious concern trolling is obvious.
@somethingnew
If you haven’t already read the comments on this thread (that’s kind of understandable, seeing as there’s more than 800), I recommend that you do so. I would also say that rude language, insults and anger are not valid reasons on their own to reject the arguments behind them. There’s some really good stuff here, from a lot of different perspectives. Take advantage of that.
Oh boy, are you ever in the wrong place.
Here’s a thought: maybe I wasn’t replying for your benefit. Mind blowing, right?
And if you hadn’t started off focusing on how polite the woman was, instead of worrying more about the rape threat, I wouldn’t have called you an idiot.
The impression I get from your worry-warting is that politeness (especially from a pissed off woman) is more valuable than social justice. Well, fuck that shit.
1) It was at a fucking comedy club. Are you new to the whole real world thing, too? Hecklers happen at stand up performances. Fucking deal with it.
2) You did blame her for speaking up by bringing up etiquette and whether it was the proper place for her to voice her opinion. What was she to do, sit quietly and complain to her friend later or take it the douchbag who made the rape in the first place?
Audley, you’re right. I had some benefit of doubt in my mind, but it was obviously not warranted.
No. The answer is to stop encouraging and tacitly accepting when people say things like that.
Tosh can say whatever he wants.
What you need to do is consider that you don’t have to pop in to the situation and offer excuses for him.
That is, if you actually don’t think women should be made to feel that way and want to make that as close to a reality as possible.
OK, I’ve concluded that not one person here knows the first thing about standup comedy, a subject dear to my heart; and most of you lack a detectable sense of humor.
Here’s the first thing about standup. The heckler is always wrong. Period. Standup is not interactive. You are there to watch a show. You aren’t there to participate, unless invited to do so. Anyone who disrupts a comedian’s act gives up the moral high ground.
Standup aficionados universally understand this rule, which is why you just can’t find a standup fan who doesn’t privately think Michael Richards got a raw deal, despite the fact that he’s not generally considered to be a very good comic.
And hey, I’ve been there. I’ve seen acts that I found personally offensive. What did I do? I waited for the next one. Or, if they were the headliner, I left. Then I went home and left nasty comments on all their YouTube clips, like an adult.
To those who say rape is NEVER funny, let me first say that that’s an odd claim from a group that uses, as a trademark, a joke about anally raping people with dead porcupines. Second, there are an awful lot of celebrated comedians who disagree with you. Patton Oswalt has done rape jokes. So has David Cross, Doug Stanhope, Tim Minchin, Louis CK, and Joe Rogan. These jokes span a wide spectrum of offensiveness, and make a wide variety of points. But unless you’ve heard of all those comedians, and can describe the jokes I’m referring to, you have no clue what you’re talking about and have nothing to contribute to this discussion. So shut up.
Even without being there, I can tell you exactly what Daniel Tosh’s joke was about. It’s not particularly sophisticated. It’s simply a giant “FUCK YOU” to the finger wavers and ruler shakers who try to tell us what we can and cannot laugh at. The nuns and the nannies are very powerful, and therefore, according to PZ, fair game. Anybody who doesn’t get that has no business calling themselves a skeptic or a freethinker. Whatever happened to Michael Richards? Oh yeah, his career was destroyed.
So Brownie, maybe you could explain to me exactly how Tosh is ‘punching down’, you ignorant twit?
One last thing: Ever since hearing that Doug Stanhope is appearing at TAM next Friday, I’ve been keeping an eye open for someone to be outraged, but it doesn’t seem to have happened yet. Is it possible that nobody here knows who Stanhope is, or knows anything about his work other than that he’s an atheist? You might be interested in his response to Tosh:
And if you’re offended by that, then in Doug’s own words, “I got a tit-fuck joke that’ll blow your socks right through your rubber underpants.”
I am self-employed.
I live in a city with many theatres.
My technique for viewing movies in theatres goes like this:
most movies are released on Friday
most multi-theatres start showing movies at noonish
that’s when I go.
sometimes there are 3 or 4 people in the audience.
sometimes it’s me and the “projectionist”.
Weed Monkey:
My hindsight is 20/20, you know. :p
IF there is such a thing as audience etiquette for comedy routines and movies, there is also such a thing as commenter etiquette for blog threads here on Pharyngula. And one aspect of that etiquette is that it is considered exceedingly rude (as well as stupid) to try to derail threads on serious topics like rape apologetics, rape jokes, rape culture, and rape, by bringing up ludicrously trivial, deflecting subjects like audience etiquette.
Particularly when there are two free-topic ongoing thread where one can bring up whatever topic one chooses, one with some restriction for polite socializing, and one without any significant restrictions of any kind.
So according to our current Chill Girl, rape jokes are okay. By that logic, so are “nigger” jokes.
I’ve scraped more pleasant shit off of the bottom of my shoe.
I wasn’t trying to offer excuses for him, I’m sorry for that.
ixchel
Your complaint is authoritarian.
It can be okay if the performance is socially destructive, i.e. if the performer is glorifying rape.
Very simple and effective points that actually address what was going through my mind. Thank you.
You know..contrast the previous comment about how people going to clubs are consenting to having views challenged?
Are comedians really this level of cry baby!? This is part of the fucking job.
Point of order: you’re not really “debating” audience etiquette, since you’re not really engaging with many of the arguments that have been made against your position. If you’re capable of engaging without becoming more wedded to your position just because you’re engaging — a difficult endeavor, I realize — you might come off as a wee bit less trollish. NB: engaging doesn’t necessarily mean arguing against; it can be polite just to explicitly acknowledge what’s being said to you.
Also, if we are in the audience, we can speak out against evil at the moment it occurs.
We can do this spontaneously if we were not expecting evil. We can even plan deliberately to do this; we can go by the dozens to his shows with the intent of disrupting them if he starts making rape jokes.
Comedians are not exempt from the implications of a democratic society; comedy like everything else is open to interactive critique by other citizens. It doesn’t come down to us from on high.
The world could do with more spontaneity and creativity, less following the dictates of capital.
Seepage:
Only a very stupid person would believe that universal claim.
Therefore other people should be as cowardly as you?
(Ain’t likely)
You’re wearing yours on your head, fool.
(bah)
I’m not amused.
Horseshit.
Let me speak to you on your language, so apologies before hand to the horde. When did comedians become such pussies?
Alright, I’m glad to have helped.
This is the first info I have on Doug and have pretty much decided that from my data set’s he’s an amazing asshole.
And again, that TAM has him isn’t very surprising.
Btw obvious slime is obvious.
Ing:
Yes. It’s really fucking sad.
It’s also really sad that “shock value” with no substance is what passes for comedy.
Because men are the ones who almost always rape women, you idiot. Because he had the entire audience on his side and she didn’t. Because he was the one who was being paid to be there and she was the one who had to pay to get in.
Reading comprehension, you no has it.
The majority is always right? That’s the argument you’re going with?
Oh yes, that particular type of humor is so NEW and EDGY. *eyeroll*
Just because current comedians is your favorite hobbyhorse doesn’t mean it’s everyone’s.
She of Infinite Seepage
Your experience in stand-up is sadly limited.
Another visitor from the slimepit, I see. You know, using an obviously female nym won’t prevent people from telling you that you are fucking sexist douchecake, you know.
“The high moral ground”? Please. You really want people to believe that stand up comedy has some sort of high moral ground? Obviously, you’ve never been to the The Apollo, dear fuckwit. Audience participation is *everything* to a stand up comic. Without it, you’re just standing on a stage without anyone at all being the slightest bit amused.
If this is the rule or tradition of stand-up, then the RULE IS WRONG AND EVIL AND SHOULD BE CHANGED.
If the choice is between complying with the tradition of standup to stay silent in the face of something like that and speaking up to challenge it, then the MORAL CHOICE for DECENT PEOPLE is to THROW THE TRADITIONS OF STANDUP COMEDY INTO THE FIRE AND LAUGH AS IT BURNS.
ANYONE who stays silent in the face of something like that and does not speak GIVES UP THE MORAL HIGH GROUND.
The “traditions” of standup comedy can go fap themselves.
@359
All those comedians you listed that have made rape jokes are men.
Look, I really don’t buy your rationalization, especially because you seem to be confused about what “punching down” is.
Rape victims typically don’t have much power in society.
Victims of rape. That’s not down? Anybody who doesn’t get that has no business calling themselves a skeptic or a freethinker.
Expressed in a medium which has, as the rule, that the comedian should never challenged. I don’t disagree with that rule.
But it’s not that edgy to stand there and go “Yeah, fuck the RULE-MAKERS! Ohandbythewaytheruleisyouhavetoshutuporleave.” We’ve all heard it before.
If that’s a comic’s big point, that comic should at the very least try to put a little fucking effort into making it somewhat original or interesting.
I don’t. TAM is a wasteland with regards to sexism. If they know, they don’t care.
I’m not defending them or him.
Oh, and nice fucking try, asshole.
People who don’t nurse at the teat of authority aren’t swayed by such obvious appeals to it.
You’re just a breath of free air aintcha, Rulesie?
Yes, I know him, fuckwit. So what? Your point is you either worship a comedian or don’t and can never, ever say they are completely wrong and fucked up to joke about certain things, amirite?
You’re an idiot.
So by the Idiot’s remarks Michael Richards was wrong to apologize for saying that a heckler was a nigger who should be strung up and a spoon shoved up his ass.
Seriously who is Stanhope?
There is no joke about anal rape with dead porcupines, you pitiful fool.
There IS a joke about anal masturbation with dead porcupines.*
But there is wee difference between masturbation and rape, you know.
*the target is generally offered a dead porcupine and invited to do with it what it wills. Notice how those three words there associate with the concept of consent?
And note how consent does not associate with rape?
She of Infinite Seepage #359
I’ve concluded that you’re a rape apologist who laughs at unfunny jokes.
Here’s the next thing about standup. If the comedian is being a rape apologist, it’s a good thing to stand up and tell them they’re being a rape apologist.
But go ahead, tell us why rape jokes are funny and why you support rape apology. Oh, never mind, I just saw you tell off offensive comedians using YouTube comments. How successful has that strategy been for you?
[meta]
What’s with this stupid recent trend to whine about the purported etiquette-breaching of someone who spoke out and was verbally assaulted for it, as if to blame the victim?
(And the recent adduction of the concept of the moral high ground in defence of victim-blaming is a damn low)
It also rightfully should be phased out. It is too hivemindy to standardize and too unclear. Intent is not magic.
Ing:
Doug Stanhope, a middling stand up comic, who, some years ago added to his fanbase with his childfree routine, but has faded into relative obscurity as far as I know. No one major, at any rate.
His inclusion into TAM is certainly no recommendation.
@Caine
I guess more accurately I should have asked “why should I care about Stanhope?”
The original joke could be interpreted as such (as I recall Tosh did claim so in his notpology, and that particular part of the notpology, I personally did not find that unreasonable). It is, of course, a VERY BAD attempt at such, (George Carlin did it much better, for example).
And as such, the original joke might (not everyone here necessarily agrees with that) have been considered passable within the context, since incompetence is, after all, allowed in comedy.
However, it is the reply to the woman that is the most egregious thing here. Something which you seem to be deliberately trying to deflect attention from.
And here is your dead porcupine. Feel free to do with it what you will.
I suggest trading the old one in for CrOP: Crown of Porcupines (naturally deceased ones, of course).
Bah, Tiara of Hedgehogs
Pointing out that a rape joke is not funny is not heckling, it is the ethical duty of decent human beings.
And even if it were heckling, and even if, as heckling, it was wrong, there is a right way and a wrong way for a comedian to respond to a heckler.
Tosh did it the WRONG way. And the way he did it was MORE WRONG by several magnitudes than however wrong the heckling was.
I get it though, the guy is up on stage and that can make an ape brain think he’s supposed to be deferred to.
So while I’m glad to have helped somethingnew see through the glamour,
the authoritarian mindset just keeps coming:
YOU ARE FREE
TO DO AS WE TELL YOU
YOU ARE FREE
TO DO AS WE TELL YOU
Standup aficionados are a bunch of mindless sheep? Really? Huh.
This is a false claim; the troll is offered a dead porcupine to self-administer intracavitarially.
It’s not “simply” that. It’s also an encouragement of rape.
Note also that laughing at something and making a joke about it are different things. Laughing can be beyond conscious control; making a joke is not.
We’ve had a useful discussion here about why rape jokes are particularly destructive to society.
We know what the effects of sexist jokes are; they’re measured. There’s no demonstrated negative effect of telling comedians not to make sexist jokes (do note that this is different from government censorship).
This audience member was not very powerful.
Anybody who compares two women in the audience to the power of the Roman Catholic Church has no business calling themselves a thinker of any sort.
So what? Nobody is owed patronage; nobody is owed an audience; nobody is owed the career they want.
Tosh was adding more sexism to the world, supporting patriarchy, and thus attacking down the power gradient. (How is this even difficult to understand? Are you incapable of googling?)
He’s a libertarian. It’s not a surprise that TAM would invite another libertarian in addition to Penn Jillette.
He has a pro-abortion joke which is moderately transgressive, but I can’t think of anything else clever that he’s ever said.
Racism, sexism, classism, got it.
@Ing
I think a Tiara of Hedgehogs would be adorable. Adorable things don’t belong to trolls. How about a Circlet of Sea Urchins?
Jockstrap of Lampreys?
mythbri
the hedgehogs are dead
Oh, Ing, that’s awful. I love it.
[meta + OT]
Me, I’ve always found the porcupine thing silly, clunky and faddish.
Let it die.
(There are better and subtler ways (which can’t backfire) to invite others to apply their own philosophy to themselves, but one has to tailor such to their target)
Oh! Dead hedgehogs. :(
Jockstrap of Lampreys works.
Since you appear to have forgotten:
You at #317 in older comments, this thread:
#335
Katherine #323 (quoted in its entirety)
Your reply: #335
Still in 335
And so on. When you see it all there, ryugagotoku, doesn’t it look like you are defending toshi by saying the woman was not correctly reporting what happened probably due to drunkenness AND also alleging stuff that wasn’t said to you, apparently based on what you think “victim blaming” means?
That sure sounds like bitchez lie, or at least drunk bitchez can’t be believed, even if the other party acknowledges fault. Makes it hard to accept all your subsequent protestations of being misread and not respected.
Dang! JAL beat me to the post and then ryugagotoku apologized!
Will continue to read, though. You never know what’s next.
Well said.
+++++
“Standup comedy is all about truth and the beauty of transgressive freedom, and as an audience member it’s your place to be an obedient consumer, so don’t talk back!”
that’s not a point, that’s evidence for their lack of creativity (personally, I love me some Syberia, but then I’m not much of a gamer.)
you are, of course, lying, since this point has already been discussed and you’re pretending otherwise.
blockquote fail, noticed of course immediately after hitting submit
yeah no, that’s not true, even if intentions were relevant. relevant: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/11/its-not-about-heckling/
@Jadehawk
It’s not a lack of creativity because it was done with the intention of being boring. It’s Super Strawman Bros for Penn’s Wii
this is incoherent, both ethically and empirically
boring lie is boring
watch me not care. if I want to know if something is harmful I don’t ask entertainers, I ask social scientists.
your ignorance of basic social dynamics in our culture has been duly noted and laughed at.
your support and apologetics for things that has been shown to support misogyny and rape culture has been noted. you’re being sexist. congratulations.
i get that. but if it was made intentionally boring to prove that games without sex and violence are boring, that just shows ignorance and lack of creativity
@Jadehawk
It’s 13 hours of boring. It’s incredibly creative in the depths it went to to be boring.
Wow, I remember better days when Lenny Bruce was mocking the pope. That I can strongly defend.
Ah. This really helps illuminate some of the repulsive motivations of some of the people posting here at FTB who drift over from the slimepit.
Parents and teachers tried to force you to refrain from using rough language? Oh, the humani-tay! They wanted you to care about others but they used a backfiring method? And now that you are all grown up you have the power to spew any way you want to, and you get off on using that power. How special. Big laughs about the inferiority of other people and the joy of being a dick.
And the battle cry is “No one can force me to be nice!”
True.
What is he world coming to?
What is the world coming to?
@She of Infinite Seepage #359
Well, according to the club owner, the audience *was* invited to participate.
From: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/daniel-tosh-apologizes-twitter-rape-joke-stand-up-routine-article-1.1112336#ixzz20NFiUtsY
It seems plausible, and nothing in the club owners statements is in contradiction to the original complaint. They seem to fill in a few details missing from the other. The exact wording of Tosh’s “joke” differs a little, but that’s to be expected unless they were both referring to a recording.
Tosh asked for feedback on what the audience wanted, got some, and made a rape joke in response to one of the responses.
So even if “the heckler is always wrong” was universally understood and justified, and even if I were to go so far as to say that any response to a heckler is justified(which I don’t believe to be the case at all) I fail to see how it covers this situation. Tosh made a rape joke, not a joke in general about rape, but one directly at someone who gave an answer he didn’t like when he asked the audience a question. How the hell does a “heckler is always wrong” defense apply here?
I read the Pffft article on Stanhope and I still don’t know who he is.
*delurk*
This entire thread is required reading for anyone that still has doubts about the effects of *-jokes, punching down, and the horrible “logic” that supports their use.
Thank you!
*lurk*
ixchel #393 for the win. (893?)
Since the Penn & Teller bus driving “game” has come up a couple of times I thought I’d mention that something actually good has come of it.
A web comedy group called Loading Ready Run uses it every fall in their annual fundraiser for the Child’s Play charity. They do a live webcast of the gang hanging out while one of them plays the damn game, and they keep playing the thing as long as people keep donating. It’s called Desert Bus For Hope and it goes on for days.
So there’s that.
Throwaway:
Please, don’t do that. (Well, okay, if you must…)
Your posts have been excellent and on point so far, so please, keep posting. Your voice is valuable and most of us are interested in what you have to say.
“Hedgehog Cupcake Tiara” by ~photo-freaky, 16 Dec 2010
I’m pretty sure Nostradamus predicted Ing’s comment #391.
+++++
One more link to understand what’s going on with “She of Infinite Seepage”:
http://www.psych-it.com.au/Psychlopedia/article.asp?id=65
Yeah, I agree with Caine. I like comments by throwaway.
Ixchel:
Not made of Hedgehogs, doesn’t count.
While that explains some people, “She of Infinite Seepage” was a slimer. Their tells are obvious. They seem to be under the impression that posting as an obvious female will uncover the terrible hypocrisy of The Horde.
Thank you caine, it means a lot hearing that from you. *hugs*. I’m just a bit distracted with RL stuff presently. Not going back in a perma-shell or anything.
I’m ready to uncover the terrible hypocrisy of The Horde.
:)
Yeah well Nostradamus only predicted Hister, too.
Hedgehog goes in, cupcake goes out. You can’t explain that.
What Amanda Marcotte said in Jadehawk’s link @405. If your shtick revolves around that sort of bullying douchebag bro humor, you should at least have some snappy comebacks prepared for the inevitable occasions when you get called out by someone who’s justifiably pissed off at your assholery.
Something self-deprecating, perhaps, like “yeah, not funny if you have a sense of decency and empathy. Good point… Fortunately, the rest of this audience is a bunch of raging sociopathic douchebags who’ll laugh at misery and suffering, right guys?”
And he would’ve kept the audience, the woman and her friend might have stayed or left, she wouldn’t have had anything to complain about to the Internet, and he still would’ve gotten a standing ovation from his douchey fans. After all, they already know they’re laughing because the jokes are inappropriate and cruel, he didn’t actually have to demonstrate his sociopathy to the world on a paying customer by making it personal. Christ, what an asshole.
Others have already addressed She of Infinite Seepage, but…
I still can’t believe we had a literal, honest-to-Jebus Courtier’s Reply here for douchey American male comedians and their rape jokes.
“So, joking about rape leads to rape. This is a claim I would like to see examples of.”
Dear Rape-enabling Asshat,
This is not nearly the slam dunk “gotcha!” that you think it is.
It was not rape that happened to me, but it was a form of sexual assault. And while I had many reasons for not telling, people mocking sexual assault in general – but especially the specific kind of assault I was dealing with – was definitely a big one.
I was young enough and introverted enough that this kind of thing was not discussed yet among my peers. It also wasn’t the kind of thing the adults would mention by name when teaching me to tell if someone hurt me. At the time, every instance I knew of it happening came from fictional depictions in popular culture. And each and every time it was minimized and the girl/woman’s outrage was mocked as being nothing more than prudery.
Not telling meant that the abuse continued. Which means that there were instances of sexual assault that occurred that might not have if rape/sexual assault jokes had not helped to teach me that what was happening was not a big deal and no less than I deserved anyway.
Victims of sexual assault always feel alone, this is always what abuse does, this always what it is meant to do. Sometimes as it’s own reward for the abuser, almost always also for purely practical reasons; victims that feel ashamed and alone are less likely to try to find ways to stop the abuse.
In a less-rape enabling world, bad shit would still happen, but victims would be less likely to continue to feel alone even after the assault. Jokes that make the victims of rape the punchline teach the people being harmed that their abuser is right and that no one cares about their pain. Except perhaps to revel in it. Like their abuser does.
Which, really, I should think would be more than enough for any decent human being to rethink claiming that rape jokes do no harm, much less making them or defending those who make them.
* goes back to reading massive thread *
@ryugagotoku
Most of your shitty post has been addressed already, and I have been away from this thread for sleep and socialising with a friend. Just got back and wanted to reply to this statement hidden within all the other bullshit you just posted up thread.
Emphasis mine.
OK, seriously? Fuck you dude. Fuck you.
This and the “mansplaining” we have been talking about. We should listen to your superior knowledge because us dumb feminists don’t understand how the world works.
Firstly, other people who know the “world of stand-up comedy” better than you do have refuted your claims.
Secondly, seeing the world from a feminist perspective IS A FUCKING VALID PERSPECTIVE. What you, dudebro, is doing here is viewing the world from a privileged perspective. That is why this appears to be a non-problem for you. As it is in physics, there is no true reference frame. Everyone experience the world differently, and feminism represents a point of view of women. The criticism from feminism is a valid criticism. Rape does not only affect women, but the rape culture that exist mostly do. It makes women feel unsafe in everyday spaces like colleges – as I provided links for on the previous page.
What privileged assholes like you need to realise is that these concerns are very real to those whom they affect. Most reflected people are capable of accepting and even seeing this even if these don’t affect them personally. People like PZ and a lot of other men posting here.
I, myself, am a trans woman. I am very well aware of the privilege of being a white guy in one of the richest countries in the world. I have layers upon layers of privilege. I am also quickly learning what the difference in privilege of being a woman is. Of what it means to no longer being hetero- and cisnormative in the eyes of the public.
Even before I started on hormones I was plenty aware of these differences though. It isn’t hard to figure out. I listened to people like Rebecca Watson and reflected over the things she said. I will freely admit I thought she was exaggertaing at first. Then I started to listen to others. I also spoke to people like PZ Myers, who I was able to talk to several times last August at a conference, and who’ve also reflected over these issues and are capable of grasping them without first hand experience. It isn’t hard at all. It just requires some critical thinking. What people like us are supposed to be good at. You know, skeptics. Maybe it is time that the assholes of our “movement” starts applying some critical thought about their own shit too – instead of chasing Bigfoot around the woods.
/End rant
Jadzia626,
That was one magnificent rant.
*hands Jadzia all of the internets*
I think I’ve got some at home that Jadzia should have. I’ll go get them.
FTB ate my last couple of tries. Let me try again, in case anyone’s still reading…
She of Infinite Stupid:
LOLZ.
Oh, jeez, where have we heard that before?
You are wrong. Period. When the fuck did comedy clubs become churches? I don’t give a shit about your little dominion of hacks and bloated egos. I do care about fighting rape culture.
And this is supposed to convince me to respect the opinions of standup fans?
Are you for real?
Yep, slimepitter. Possibly a Chill Girl™, but more likely just another dude who thinks that feminism is “the battle of the sexes” and that therefore saying sexist things with a feminine handle will give them cred.
First of all, being “celebrated comedians” doesn’t mean they’re always right, or that some of them are even ever funny. Joe Rogan, for example, is a misogynist fuckstain with nothing but shock value going for him. The video of him yelling at Lydia Lunch, whose boots he isn’t fit to lick, demonstrated his utter worthlessness, and the rave reception it got amongst his fans demonstrated the same about them.
NO U.
Ah, and here we are. Because Mommy made you wash behind your ears and forbade you cookies when you were little, she still runs the world, and “putting in her place” = freedom. Despite the fact that it’s actually men who run the world. Same reason for the Rethug war on women.
You don’t know the meaning of either term, cupcake.
I made popcorn in vain. You didn’t get a fraction of the smackdown you deserved.
Given how much misogynist bullshit went down in the lead-up to TAM, the fact that the Dudes in charge hired a misogynist comedian is both unsurprising and rather low on the overall priority list.
Ing:
Where do you want your internet delivered?
This thread is like Derailing for for Dummies bingo. Because be all know the focus should be on keeping Privilege Dude from being offended.
O,o If it’s one of those 3.5″ floppy disks with the old internets on them, I would really like one. Especially if it has Geocities!
Oh, when I say I was able to talk to PZ several times last August, I wasn’t following him around (it sounds a little like that). It was because I was hanging with the cool kids like Debbie Goddard, and PZ also liked to hang with the cool kids. PZ is a really great guy in person.
Hmm. This is something I can play with. Let’s see what can be done.
Ahh, crap…
Hmm. This is something I can play with. Let’s see what can be done.
Hmm. How about this?
Or maybe this?
Ooh, I’ve got it.
Apropos of awful references to the late George Carlin’s 7-10 Dirty Words in the comments to this article, I am now envisioning Tosh being stuffed into a locomotive’s firebox by a zombified Conductor from Shining Time Station.
Jadzia: I find this:
“I, myself, am a trans woman. I am very well aware of the privilege of being a white guy in one of the richest countries in the world. I have layers upon layers of privilege. I am also quickly learning what the difference in privilege of being a woman is. Of what it means to no longer being hetero- and cisnormative in the eyes of the public.”
utterly and completely fascinating. A little peak into my cisprivilege.
Anyone know of any blog posts etc that would address this?
Exactly – so long as it is understood that ‘feminism’ means that we believe that women are just as human, and just as worthwhile, as men. Because that’s feminism.
If one were to presume otherwise – that women are worth less than men – than one could in fact support Tosh to a greater or lesser extent. I’m not really sure why someone would want to make that presumption without actually agreeing with it.
On the other hand, I’m not really sure why I should listen to views on gender issues from someone who made that presumption because they agreed with it.
Any chance you could clarify?
Tosh has apologized.
Grade: F — SEE ME AFTER CLASS.
@Illuminata
Hmm, best guess, try Natalie Reed’s blog. I don’t have any direct links to anything but she often discusses such topics. Also Julia Serano talks about this a lot in her book “Whipping Girl”. Possibly also on her blog, haven’t been following it for that long.
Tosh apologized again? Well I guess that means TAM is hosting a rapist
Setar and Ing, that looks like the same non-apology linked earlier just from a different article.
Another post on this topic:
“Do You Laugh At Rape Jokes?”
http://www.fem2pt0.com/2012/07/12/do-you-laugh-at-rape-jokes/
Illuminata: go here.
Now, here is a joke that “might” qualify as, well, slightly less unacceptable than this morons. Every notice how all “video” shows eventually degenerate into a lot of pets, and really stupid people, which are not at all funny, while the host desperately tries to make it seem like they where? Well, I see Tosh’s carrier ending when the FCC objects to him finally breaking down and trying to combine these things, on his TV show, with the joke being discussed here: stupid people, pets, and… umm, you know.
One more article on the topic, from Jezebel of all places (I’m sure I don’t have to tell anyone here how hit and miss they can be, but this one’s a hit).
“How to Make a Rape Joke”
http://jezebel.com/5925186/how-to-make-a-rape-joke?comment=50890328
The Onion has weighed in on the situation.
“Daniel Tosh Chuckles Through Own Violent Rape”
(TW for violent rape depiction in article)
From Huffpo: white male comics defending Tosh:
List of Comedians that are being unapologetically dense about this issue:
Jim Norton (“Why is it okay for an actor to play a rapist, but not for a comic to joke about it?”)
Louis C.K. (“your show makes me laugh every time I watch it. And you have pretty eyes”)
Patton Oswalt (“Wow, @danieltosh had to apologize to a self-aggrandizing, idiotic blogger. Hope I never have to do that (again).”)
Dane Cook (“If you journey through life easily offended by other peoples words I think it’s best for everyone if you just kill yourself”)
Anthony Jeselnik (“An offended audience member repeating a comedian’s act from memory is worse than, literally, anything”)
Stevie Ryan (“Daniel Tosh can’t make a rape joke but Eminem can have hit songs about it? PS. AIDS jokes are funnier”)
Doug Stanhope (“You’re hilarious. If you ever apologize to a heckler again I will rape you. #FuckThatPig”) — wow.
Opie Radio (“To all the idiots! I completely support Daniel Tosh being a comic in a comedy club! Even if it means rape jokes!”)
Kumail Nanjiani (“Two things about the Tosh thing. 1. It was said in the moment and not a pre written thing. 2. If you think he’s pro rape you’re an idiot.”) — this one, though. as though it makes it better that it was an off-the-cuff comment. don’t you see how revealing that is about him and his values?
Sarah Beattie (“calm down about rape jokes everyone’s been raped at least once by george lucas”)
Doug Benson (“Maybe Daniel Tosh was confused about where he was. He wouldn’t have offended anyone over at the Rape Factory. #ThisTweetWillBeDeletedSoon”)
(Source: The Huffington Post)
Kumail Nanjiani seems to have deleted his incredibly witty response to me, so I’ll post it here:
If this is how he deals with hecklers I can see why he feels the need to stand up for Tosh.
God I feel old, as I don’t recognize any of these names save Tosh and Dane Cook…who I wish I didn’t!
Setar, you may be surprised to learn that there are hospitals in non-Western countries which practice evidence-based medicine.
Maybe that’s what you meant to say: evidence-based medicine.
I will never forgive my brother for being a Dane Cook fanboi. I love the kid but shit, he’s got a douchebro side.
Literally, eh? My, what a charmed life of privilege this one must lead.
Josh:
I tried, once, to watch a show of his. I managed about 10 minutes, I think. Kept waiting for something to be funny, didn’t happen. For the life of me, I don’t get the attraction.
450: that’s, um, extreme, in a moral high ground-schmoral high ground sort of way.
451: what a bunch of smug, self-centered assholes. They sound like fucking clergy with their “lulz is sacred, you have to be reverent because comedy works in mysterious ways” bullshit.
Josh, he’ll sort himself out as he ages. How can he go wrong with a brother like you?
If comedy means anything goes, I better never hear one fucking word of complaint from the fuckin slimepitters because I’m funnier than anything they’ve ever done.
Oh, and they’re all flaming bags of shit, and we all know what one does with a flaming bag of shit.
What, I’m joking!
From Kate Harding, 15 rape jokes that work. YMMV, of course.
There are the jokes from Wanda Sykes and Sarah Silverman that have been mentioned (and surprise! they don’t make fun of rape victims! IMAGINE THAT), and also, amazingly, one from Dane Cook that ALSO doesn’t make fun of rape victims.
Ooo, there’s a mini-semi-Josh out there? Cool.
Saw her post. I didn’t find any of those jokes funny still. The 2 first ones made me smile a little, the last ones were still horrible.
Holy shit. Via Shakesville: link
@carlie
YUCK. What an ass.
Yeah, I bet he did. *spits*
Yeah, he’s got all the class of a rancid enema bag, and yet, there’s a host of dudebros out there who will continue to defend this shit.
I disagree://
Flaming bags of shit represent a conundrum that I am uninterested in dealing with ever again.
Goddamn teenagers.
This is ridiculous. Being ignorant about the inappropriate of a particular kind of “joke” is one thing, but going into a threatening tirade on being called out on that ignorance sounds positively alarming. What is Daniel Tosh going to serve up next, “jokes” about the Holocaust and racial lynchings?
According to the owner of the club, who was in the room at the time, Daniel Tosh did not make the threat-like joke his anonymous accuser said he did.
He also says her account is false on some other points, e.g. that she left because she had to flee the scary claustrophobic rapey environment after feeling threatened.
He says she sat through the whole show, and came and talked about it later.
I doubt that he would lie about that point, at least, if only because there were 280 witnesses who might speak up and say they saw her leave.
More detail over at the Atheist Experience blog:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2012/07/17/louis-c-k-still-pretty-cool-probably/#comment-64511
My tentative guess is that yes, Tosh did in fact say something stupid and sexist in the moment—not just a rape joke, but a very insensitive, stupid one—but did not do the worst things he’s accused of.
I wouldn’t take his anonymous accuser’s account at face value, or think that his apology is quite as unsatisfactory as it seems—if he didn’t actually do the very worst things he’s accused of, then he shouldn’t be apologizing for them.
I quoted in my comment #40 what the owner of the club claims was said. Even if the woman were lying, or misremembering, his account still isn’t any better.
And she would?
Beatrice,
I agree with you that if Tosh said what the owner recounted, verbatim, that too is pretty fucking horrid.
But
(1) No, it really as is not bad as what she claimed he said, and presented as though it was a verbatim quote. It was grotesquely insensitive about the possiblity that she’d actually been raped, but falls short of saying, even in jest, that it would be a good thing if she were raped. However bad the former is, the latter is so astonishingly bad on it’s face that I’d guess he meant it quite ironically and hyperbolically, pretending to be an even worse monster than she was accusing him of—much like one of us joking that “yeah, I’m gonna go and steal a Christian baby and roast it for dinner.” We do that shit all the time, and of course we’re just mocking accusations against us by pretending that they’re not only true, but we’re far worse than we’re being accused of being.
Edgy comics do that shit, and you’re supposed to know that’s what they’re doing, just like when Ophelia jokes about what a terrible bully she is. It’s not a real admission that she’s a bully–it’s a joke with the opposite message.
Like when Louis C.K. said he hopes we can get past this kerfuffle and back to killing Jews. IMO, that was funny.
Of course he didn’t mean that—that was the entire point—and like the rest of us, he thinks that killing Jews is the canonical monstrous act. (But if you’re clearly making that kind of a joke, the joke isn’t monstrous or even evil at all, and is actually implicitly affirming that genocide is monstrous, by taking it for granted, because if you can’t take it for granted, the joke doesn’t work.)
IMO even if Tosh did say exactly what she said he did, verbatim, IMO he likely was doing that—making fun of the very idea that he’s a very evil sexist by pretending to be a totally sociopathic sexist monster, ironically. We make jokes like that here, all the time.
It’s not surprising if comics do, too, and taking ridiculous irony at face value is just not fair.
Tosh is a problematic case, because I think he is a bit of an asshole, and somewhat socially irresponsible. But that doesn’t mean he wasn’t pretending to be worse than he is, as a joke. I don’t think it’s the smoking gun that proves he’s a monster—that was likely what he was mocking, like the rest of us sometimes do.
2. I really doubt that the club owner manager got it verbatim, or even close, either. He may have mangled the joke, and when you mangle irony, all kinds of weird shit can happen. Exact wording can be crucial.
The owner—who acknowledged he didn’t remember the joke exactly—wasn’t making the claim that he remembered the joke verbatim. He says he doesn’t, but that the accuser’s recollection is clearly wrong.
That leaves me thinking that what Tosh actually said was probably either as bad as the manager’s version but not as bad as the accuser’s, or less bad than either.
I could be wrong, of course, and the the former is certainly bad enough anyhow.
At this point I just don’t think we can rely on the seemingly verbatim “quote” from the accuser, whether she’s lying, or just trying to portray what she perhaps mistakenly though the joke meant.
And yes, I do think it’s possible that she’s “lying,” or more likely somewhat mistaken, and presenting things in a clearer form than she can actually accurately remember. It seems pretty clear to me from several clues in her story that she doesn’t have a good understanding of comedy, especially edgy live comedy in clubs. It would not be very surprising if she misunderstood something when it happened, and further misremembered it later. People suck at that sort of thing.
At this point I wouldn’t be “quoting” Tosh’s incredibly awful jokes, as she recounted them, as good evidence of anything, unless more witnesses pop up to corroborate or disconfirm that yes, that’s really what he said. (Or better yet, a bootleg recording surfaces.)
Again, don’t get me wrong. I have no great respect or love for Tosh, and it wouldn’t surprise me if what he said was pretty bad, going for a cheap, insensitive sexist joke. And I also think he often doesn’t make it clear enough where his actually assholery ends and his ironic “unreliable narrator” character takes over. He’s not a very good edgy comic IMO, and that’s bad.
I just don’t think we have a smoking gun about just how bad he is, or was, or meant to be, that night. He uses irony a lot—and too often, not well—and irony just doesn’t travel well on the internet.
man, Paul W., you always seem to make a lot of sense.
Thanks for that completely different (and, to me, persuasive) perspective.
@Paul
Two quick points.
1. Rape isn’t edgy.
2. “Killing Jews” isn’t generally something people do (any more) in most parts of the world. Although anti-Semitism is common and should not be trivialised by comedy, rape culture is incredibly common and the attitude towards rape is not comparable to most of the examples people keep coming up with.
The fact that people think rape is comparable to either things like having diabetes, a disease as opposed to being a victim of a violent crime, or “eating babies” which is just exaggerated sillyness, pretty much illustrates why rape culture is NOT taken as serious as it needs to be. And the people who do these trivialisations are people who generally are in little or no risk of being raped.
I don’t see where irony comes into this.
We joke around here about eating babies and the meme came to be as a response to ridiculous accusation. The important part here is that those accusations are ridiculous. Most people don’t really roast babies for brunch. Rape, on the other hand, happens quite often.
Well, I guess I have to agree that saying “I bet you were raped” isn’t exactly as bad as saying “It would be funny if you got raped now”. Although, it would probably mostly depend to whom it was said. I imagine someone severely traumatized by a previous rape wouldn’t find it much easier to hear one rather than the other.
Additionally to the first paragraph of my answer, there is another difference here. He wasn’t accused of being a rapist. She just told him that rape jokes are not funny. I don’t see where a “joke with the opposite message” comes into this.
As far I can tell, the only remotely sensible defense is that he is a really really incompetent comedian. And in that case, your assumption about irony fails because I don’t think he would be able to pull it off. Or rather, he obviously wasn’t.
@ A.R
Hi A.R !
Hi, theophontes!