Friday Cephalopod: I was going to bring back some jewelry for my wife… »« Why I am an atheist – Stella

Comments

  1. says

    I’ll be making macaroni casserole tonight

    Oops, scratch that: I just realised I have no macaroni. Well, minced meat sauce ant potatoes it shall be then.

  2. Matt Penfold says

    Oops, scratch that: I just realised I have no macaroni. Well, minced meat sauce ant potatoes it shall be then.

    You mean a shepherd’s pie ? Or cottage pie, if we are being pedantic and the meat is beef rather than lamb.

  3. says

    Matt:

    I was going to be called Guy, until my parents realised I was due on the 5th November. In the end I was two days late, and got called Matthew.

    I went to HS with several people named Guy. One of them lived across the street from me. That’s a name that used to be very popular and seems to have fallen straight off the map.

  4. Matt Penfold says

    I went to HS with several people named Guy. One of them lived across the street from me. That’s a name that used to be very popular and seems to have fallen straight off the map.

    My parents liked it enough that they gave the name to my brother who came along 19 months after me. But you are right, the only Guys I know are all around their mid 30s to late 40s.

    Whereas my parents seem to have been ahead of fashion in calling me Matthew. That names seems to have peaked in the 1980s.

  5. opposablethumbs says

    YOU’RE ALL TOO FAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I CAN’T KEEP UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So ‘rupt it’s ridiculous.

    keenacat, I’m way way behind on this thread but I hope a few extra hugs can still go on the pile. Here, have a cat – I include this bold and very cute young adult cat (tortoiseshell) who took a break from hunting bees in the long grass and came over to appropriate me as a handy-source-of-head-skritches in the park today ::hands over cat::. I’m hugely impressed by how together you are and how strong you are being in the face of what must be overwhelming horribleness to experience.
    Martial arts and/or dancing sound like the perfect thing in so many ways (both physiologically and psychologically, it would seem to this definitely-not-expert person) to help you get through this .

    Also, more hugs for Koshka and partner.

    Jennifer, shit that situation re your ex’s parents is appalling. I can barely even imagine how that could feel. I do so hope it goes well, and I’m sorry you’re going through so much shit right now.

    And very very belatedly, to the several people who have come into the parlour recently – I’m so glad to meet you.

    I could never make the cut as One of Those Rude People From Pharyngula™ (Mattir) myself, but I would so wear a badge saying “I heart Those Rude People From Pharyngula™” And happy sun circumnavigation day!

    Ogvorbis I love every word of your #371. Just made me smile so much, and I could always do with a smile so thank you. (OK, this was now something like several pages and now a whole thread ago, dammit, but I liked it so what the hell I might as well still say so).

    Hugs and sympathies to JAL. I know they won’t butter any parsnips, and I’m not able to send anything actually useful but I want to send a whole lot of them anyway. I hope you get the help you need.

  6. Nutmeg says

    Names: My first name is fairly common among women my age, and it’s also very similar to a male first name. So all the guys in my school called me by my last name from grade six onward, but for some reason the girls never did.

    Of course, I hated my (very uncommon and easily-joked-about) last name back then. Now, I can appreciate that it makes it easy for potential employers to find my publications.

    My middle name is bland. I wish my folks had given me my mom’s name as a middle name. It’s old-fashioned, but at least it would mean something.

    At least all of my names are easy to spell and pronounce.

  7. dianne says

    Threadrupt wrt old thread.

    minced meat sauce ant potatoes it shall be then.

    Ant potatoes? I have several images in my mind of what an ant potato could be and much as I am sure it’s a typo, I really like the idea of a potato that is bred to be particularly attractive to ants and lure them in, but has something sticky inside so they can’t get back out. The potato should be harvested and immediately cooked to preserve the fresh formic acid flavor and crunchiness of the ants, along with the sweetness of the potato itself (which will turn starchy if kept.)

  8. says

    You mean a shepherd’s pie ?

    No, I think I’ll just eat them as boiled potatoes and sauce. I’m growing hungrier and more impatient every minute :P

  9. Louis says

    Oh fuck. I’m drunk. This health kick thing is not working. Mind you, I’ve had a few cracking weekends out of it. Don’t expect anything, let alone sanity, from me until about Tuesday evening. I fully intend to drink my body weight in booze a few times over. Hey, something has got to make the voices stop.

    Louis

  10. dianne says

    something has got to make the voices stop.

    The mute button always works for me. In extreme cases, the off switch.

  11. says

    Hmmm, according to my ancient name book:

    Guy – Old French, “to steady or guide.” This name was first popularized in the days of chivalry by French and English knights. One Sir Guy was knight of King Arthur’s Round Table, and another the Knight Guyon of The Faerie Queene. Its popularity was increased by two Saints Guy. The Wyatt forms are modern variants.

    English – Guy, Guyon, Wyatt, Wiatt.

    Old French – Gui, Guy.

    Latin, Italian, Spanish and Portuguese – Guido.

  12. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @diane:

    From the same site and less apropos of PZ’s trip, but more apropos of what has been going on here of late:

    A poster.

  13. Agent Silversmith, Feathered Patella Association says

    Louis

    Hey, something has got to make the voices stop.

    Or at least stop broadcasting in 16rpm mono.

  14. says

    Katherine, for cute dresses that you really love that are no good in the back there are options. The shrug, the shawl, the cute little cardigan, and learning to sew.

    Audley, CripDyke’s only semi-joking point was that Darkbaby might not turn out to be cis. Not that this matters; you need a name from birth and the Darkspawn can always change it as necessary.

    I also like Ginger. It reminds me of the line about Ginger Rogers: she did everything Fred Astaire did, except backwards and in high heels. Caine, since your name is now so different, may I ask how you chose it? I mean your professional name, as seen on your photo site. (Hmmm, probably asking too much for a public forum; I will take not the tiniest particle of offense if you don’t choose to answer.)

  15. ImaginesABeach says

    Name stories:

    My mom is Margaret Mary, her mom was Margaret Mary, her mom was Margaret Mary, her mom was…
    Mary Margaret. See a theme here? My mom told my dad “No more Margarets or Marys” so they decided to call me Jennifer. Shortly before I was born, they met someone named Jennifer and decided to call me Camille.

    GirlChild came first and has a name that starts with “R”. When pregnant with BoyChild, I told Mr. Beach that I was not going to name him anything that starts with an “R” because it’s just too sweet. We couldn’t agree on a name, and a few weeks before he was born, I started reading names from a newspaper (boy, does that date me!) for Mr. Beach to consider. I read “Brian”, and Mr. Beach said, “Yes, that’s it!” A few minutes later, he said, “I thought you didn’t want a name that starts with R.” The moral of the story: make sure partner is paying attention and wearing hearing aids when choosing a name. We stayed with the R name.

  16. ImaginesABeach says

    Alethea – GirlChild has never seen Fred and Ginger, but she knows that quote and uses it often.

  17. says

    Alethea, as I told Josh once, it’s so long ago I don’t much remember. Back when I was 16 or so (possibly 15.5) and I was living with a house full of friends, someone said “you look like a Xxxxx” and it was adopted. Surname, well, marriage took care of that one.

    After Xxxxx had been adopted, A found out about it several years later, after Mister and I were together. He called be by my ‘new’ name, and predictably, she was fucking outraged. :sigh:

    Nowadays, just about everyone just calls me C. Even Mister.

  18. says

    Proof that god exists and hates me. Picked taxi driver playing a Hillsong CD on way to airport. See you in 12 hours.

  19. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    After Xxxxx had been adopted, A found out about it several years later, after Mister and I were together. He called be by my ‘new’ name, and predictably, she was fucking outraged. :sigh:

    *sympathy sigh*
    My nice ex hated his name as well, and his parent also got super offended about him using a different one. I don’t really get it.

  20. ImaginesABeach says

    We had a diversity training at work yesterday. Every so often, they have these trainings to give us some exposure to some of the marginalized groups of people we serve (I work for my state’s Department of Human Services). The trainings are during work time, but are voluntary. The only requirement is that you attend 2 hours of diversity training each year. So yesterday, they showed a video about Lakota children living on a reservation in South Dakota. Then 2 American Indian people from the department talked and answered questions. It was quite good. Anyway…

    One of the speakers talked about micro-insults, and how they wear you down. The macro-insults get the attention of lots of people and make you angry, but the micro-insults chip away at you. It wasn’t a term I had heard before, although I immediately knew what she was talking about.

    It’s the background noise. I think that’s probably part of the reason “mild” harassment doesn’t get reported on surveys, and I think it’s probably part of the reason why having the same conversation with jerks over and over and over again might make some people less tolerant of the jerks.

    JT and others that don’t have the background noise don’t seem to suffer from the overwhelming noise of the jerks so much.

    I can’t take part in the fight. But boy do I appreciate those of you who do. It drowns out the background noise. And I don’t have a lot of the background noise (middle-age, middle-income white woman) but I sure do like it when you drown it out.

  21. jimmauch says

    The 48.3% of Icelanders that don’t believe in hell perhaps should reconsider. They learned that you just don’t mess with the boy,

  22. John Morales says

    [personal]

    ॐ, for a certain aspect of your personality, I feel empathy, because I share it.

    Some frustrations demand itching, and it’s easy to yield to them.

    This is good:

    I would feel able to drop it if you would acknowledge that you misspoke.

    This, the opposite:

    Withholding any acknowledgement of error from me is apparently some kind of expression of dominance for you, and I understand if you need to get that out of your system, but I hope you’ll eventually come around and deign to condescend to me a minimal expression of fairness.

  23. Rey Fox says

    BTW, when you say ‘…more into music’, what do you mean by that?

    Just that I care more about music than lyrics, and appreciate the musical qualities of a song more than the lyrical content, and unless the vocals are very prominent in the mix or I feel like singing along with the song, I don’t even know the lyrics to a lot of the music I listen to.

    And then there are nicknames that stick I have childhood friends whose birth certificates are Charles and Lisa but have never been called anything other than Ahab and Lizard.

    Geddy Lee was named “Gary” by his parents, “Geddy” is a nickname based on his Polish mother’s pronunciation thereof.

    I’ve noted this childhood nickname phenomenon many times in athletes. There was a football player who went by the name Boo Williams, which was apparently a nickname from very early in his life. My brother plays Madden and named a player on one of his teams “WAAAAHHHH Roberts” in tribute.

  24. Jessa says

    Throwing in my two cents regarding baby names.

    Prospective parents, please think think twice about giving your child an unusual spelling of a common name. My real first name is a non-standard spelling of what is a not-common but not-uncommon name for people my age.* Every time someone asks me for my name, I tell them, “Let me spell it before you write it down”, and they still put down the common spelling about 75% of the time. It’s not a horrible thing, but it gets extremely tiresome after a while.

    *I have the same problem with my last name too, because it’s phonetically identical to a popular brand of alcoholic beverage.

  25. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Is that framing advice, John? Such is not unwelcome, but I don’t see reason to think it was an incorrect appraisal.

  26. says

    That thing about parents getting offended by name changes is a bit odd, but it does happen. One of the good things about many traditional names is you can do it without technically changing your name.

    I suspect because there were so few names that nicknames became the norm. Look at all the English queen names – repetitious to the max. So you get:
    Anne Annette Annie Anna Nan Nancy Nanette
    Elizabeth Eliza Betsy Beth Liz Liza Lizzie Bess Betty Ellie
    Catherine Cathy Kitty Kate Cate Kat Katrine Trina Rina
    Margaret Marg Marge Margot Meg Peg Gretel Greta Marguerite Daisy Pearl…

  27. John Morales says

    ॐ, critique, not advice.

    Whether your appraisal is correct or not, I make it that you’re pleading for vindication in the guise of validation, but the attempted button-pushing obscures that, making it seem a demand.

    For those who see it in that light, your persistence will be counter-productive, I think.

  28. Rey Fox says

    My real name is spelled in the most common way, and everyone still spells it wrong. IT’S IN THE DAMN BIBLE!

  29. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    So…

    I have some time to kill [not really, I have too much to do, but I'm taking some time to kill anyway] and was thinking about watching Clone Wars: TAS.

    Anyone have any opinions on it? Worth it? and most importantly…

    Does it have JarJar?

  30. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    ॐ, for a certain aspect of your personality, I feel empathy, because I share it.

    This made me smile because I feel much the same way about both of you. I find myself wincing when it seems to me, rightly or wrongly, that your motivations are being misunderstood, or (especially) that it’d be better if you’d stop digging or drop something but you can’t quite.

  31. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Pleading, vindication, validation, button-pushing, demand, I think it has become sincerely all of the above. I am not one who never stands up for others unfairly treated; I think I can reasonably demand fair consideration.

    If honesty is not her priority, then something else is. At this point I only wish to say that I think I know what’s going on and why.

    Your critique is appreciated, John, but I think you underestimate Caine’s thrill at hurting others.

  32. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Caine
    Oh, no. Not feminists. Not all feminists anyway.

    Feminism is great! The author is a TrueFeminist™.

    It turns out what really makes you a bad feminist is rejecting evolutionary psychology.

    What a coincidence that the author is an evolutionary psychologist!

  33. says

    Crip Dyke:

    The author is a TrueFeminist™.

    It turns out what really makes you a bad feminist is rejecting evolutionary psychology.

    What a coincidence that the author is an evolutionary psychologist!

    I see. Goodness, how deep, how amazing, how revelatory! Thank you for that concise summary and sparing me a few brain cells.

  34. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Back atcha, Happiestsadist. I stand by all the compliments I gave you at B&W, you know.

  35. says

    Hello, everyone! I’m about to roll off to bed, full of sushi and suchlike goodness. I met Esteleth and Esteleth’s mum and they are really nice people.

    Did keenacat check in today? I have a few hugs and some e-booze for her.

    Everyone else, be good. My ‘nym is what my mother wanted to call me–well, not the climate change part. Luckily, she got outvoted by my dad and my favourite cousin.

  36. Happiestsadist says

    You keep stroking that grudgeboner, dude. I’m just sick about you mewling about how misunderstood you are every time someone someone finally gets sick of your shit and clogging up threads with your ridiculous indignance.

  37. carlie says

    One of the speakers talked about micro-insults, and how they wear you down. The macro-insults get the attention of lots of people and make you angry, but the micro-insults chip away at you. It wasn’t a term I had heard before, although I immediately knew what she was talking about.

    There’s a website for that. If you’re like me and can’t stand the layout, putting it into an RSS feed makes it a lot easier to deal with.

  38. LDTR says

    My first name was somewhat popular, I think, in the early ’60′s, when I was born, but its heyday, such as it was, is now well past.

    When I married, I went from one of the top 3 most common surnames in the US to one of the rarest. I believe it has only around 35 phone book listings in the entire country. It’s a long and clunky name too, which hardly anyone gets right the first time, and we automatically spell it out every time we tell it to people.

  39. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Grudge? Did you forget? I love you, Happiestsadist, because you are so very much like me.

    The only difference I see is that I seek to inflict truth in addition to pain.

    The lack of reciprocity is what I mewl about. Some few commenters are fairly accurate in detailing just what a terrible person I am — Stacy’s been near the bullseye lately — and you’ll notice I don’t complain about that.

  40. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    I’m sick of writing about masculinity. This is a very bad time for that to happen, as I have a two-page paper and a twenty-five page paper to write on the subject basically this week.

  41. carlie says

    There is a site somewhere that takes the popularity of your first name and your last name and does simple statistics of it to estimate how many other people in the country share your same firstname lastname combo. It can be very depressing no matter what the results: if there are thousands of others you feel insignificant, if there aren’t any you suddenly realize what internet privacy and traceability mean to you in terms of a google search, and if there are a few dozen you feel generic and middle-childish. Or maybe I’m just burnt out and morose. I might need a break for a couple of days.

    Oh, here it is.

  42. Rey Fox says

    I automatically spell out my real last name too, and it’s only four letters long.

  43. says

    LDTR:

    When I married, I went from one of the top 3 most common surnames in the US to one of the rarest.

    It was the exact opposite for me– my former last name is so rare that the only living people with it are my parents, my dad’s two siblings, two of my sisters, and two of my cousins*.

    I went from that to a far more common (and way more spellable) last name.

    *Something funky happened when my great-granddad came to the States from Norway, but I don’t know exactly what. It’s nothing like the last name that the Norwegian bits of my family have.

  44. says

    Carlie:

    There is a site somewhere that takes the popularity of your first name and your last name and does simple statistics of it to estimate how many other people in the country share your same firstname lastname combo.

    One thing I like about the first name I use and my surname is that there’s an assumption it belongs to a male and it’s the name of some sort of athlete, which is what gets all the hits.

    :Clicks link:

    Okay, using my adopted name surname, there are There are 229 people in the U.S. with my name. Not bad. Other stuff: There are 346,665 people in the U.S. with the first name mine. Statistically the 178th most popular first name. 89.14 percent of people with the first name mine are male. About the surname: There are 207,469 people in the U.S. with the last name mine. Statistically the 124th most popular last name.

    Now to use my legal name: There are 446 people in the U.S. named mine. There are 674,506 people in the U.S. with the first name Virginia. Statistically the 73rd most popular first name.

    If I plug in my legal name and maiden name, I get: There are 7 people in the U.S. named Virginia xxxx.

  45. Pteryxx says

    (trigger warning)

    This is why I can’t stay in TET while pitbull’s around, or mount a direct critique.

    Alternating between aggressive, invalidating, or undermining behavior and charm/praise is a characteristic tactic of emotional abuse.

  46. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Rey Fox:

    Yeah, I hate it when people run around assuming the “correct” spelling can even be accomplished with roman lettering.

    I assume that accounts for spelling “Fox” with four letters?

    ………
    My last name doesn’t exist outside of France and is fairly rare there. A search on my last name primarily turns up me even without my first name.

  47. says

    Also, Mr Darkheart shares his name combo with 79 people. He’s met at least two of them: one was a year behind him in college and another works for his company (in a different office). He’s constantly getting the other guy’s email.

  48. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    From that PsychToday article:

    for far too many years, feminism has been a dirty word. This is shameful. And much of this shame falls squarely on gender feminists’ (unpadded) round shoulders. To save feminism from the Svengali-like grip that gender feminism has on it, I encourage fellow humans who hold that women should have the same social, political, and economic rights as men to wholeheartedly and proudly identify as equity feminists (Friedman, 1997). To do otherwise is to align with misogynists, or worse still, gender feminists.

    Here gender feminists aren’t really ID’d by anything other than their (our) supposed tendency to reject evolutionary psychology.

    The really amazingly ridiculous part? The man(!) who wrote it illustrated this paragraph with a cartoon of a 50s-dressed guy pointing a finger at a woman in a pillbox hat. The point, apparently, is that he is rebelling against the illegitimate authority of “gender feminists” when he jabs that finger and defiantly declares:


    Look, Kitten. I don’t give a damn what you think. If I say I’m a feminist, then by god I am one!

    Bold in the original (scroll down).

    Do you think the guy is meant to be JT?

  49. Mattir says

    There is, according to carlie’s linked site, one or fewer of me in the United States. Hooray for me.

    I was just watching our new kitten, Turing, making friends with our 11+ year old rabbit, Shadow while the bun-buns were having a hoparound in the living room (they live in a large floor pen in the corner of the living room). I was having musings about age and how Shadow would probably die soon and then discovered that in the last few days she’s developed urine scald, probably from having arthritis in her hindquarters and difficulty getting into the litterbox, even though the litterbox is one designed for small dogs and has a very low edge on one side. She’s still curious, eating clover at the moment (I sent SonSpawn out into the rain to get some for her), and has had a gentle bath to wash the urine and burned fur off her legs. So the inevitable discussion of whether-it-is-time-to-euthanize Shadow occurred, with everyone basically saying they wanted someone else to make the decision. This means that I’m the one who has to make it, which is unfair crap, but has happened before with other geriatric pets.

    So tomorrow, instead of going camping, I’m probably going to get my rabbit euthanized. Indoor, spayed rabbits have a life expectancy of 8-12 years, so she’s had a really good run, she’s been losing weight and is fairly stiff moving. She’s still curious and affectionate and eating well, but pain assessment is very difficult with rabbits (part of being a prey animal, apparently) and I would rather have her euthanized when they can do it through a vein in her ear rather than via a heart stick, which a vet had to do with a severely dehydrated bunny several years ago because her veins were collapsed from the dehydration. Also I think that it’s better to euthanize her now while she’s in fairly happy condition than spend weeks or months bathing her regularly, applying ointments, and force-feeding her Ensure to keep her weight up (no kidding, vet recommended this on last visit to deal with weight loss – I ignored it as something that Shadow hated and fought and that did not materially improve her quality of life).

    Fuckity fuck. I hate being the one who has to make the life and death decisions for pets because the other adults involved are some combination of too squeamish, intellectualized, or detached to get involved beyond “it’s your decision.”

    I’m wearing my grownup underpants, but FSM, it would be nice sometimes to feel like there were other grownups giving me emotional backup.

    /Theodicy & Facts of Life Rant Mode

  50. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Alternating between aggressive, invalidating, or undermining behavior and charm/praise is a characteristic tactic of emotional abuse.

    I do hope the SciBorg Pharyngula comments come back soon, Pteryxx, so we can revisit your pattern of exactly such behavior.

    I suppose you probably aren’t aware of it since you typically operate as part of a mob, which is inherently self-validating.

    +++++

    Two apologies is enough from my point of view, I can’t force anyone to accept ‘em.

    Jesus, Caine.

    Again, you’ve made no apologies which did not blame me for being bothered by your false statement,

    and again, I really am not asking for an apology. I only want you to acknowledge that you made a false statement. “I misspoke and now stfu, pitbull” would be great.

  51. Nepenthe says

    It was the exact opposite for me– my former last name is so rare that the only living people with it are my parents, my dad’s two siblings, two of my sisters, and two of my cousins*.

    Pretty close for me. Not only is my last name a misspelling of the ancestral last name (which I’m glad of, as the part that got changed is slang for “penis” in English), my branch of the family dropped an additional letter. Add that to my uncommon to begin with, then misspelled first name, which is derived from a different area of Europe than the last name, and I’m positive that I’m the only person with this name who’s ever lived.

  52. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    …Okay, this looks like a great time for a break from TET. (I expect my resolve to last all of fifteen minutes, but y’all can chase me off for the rest of the night if you feel like it because I really, really have work to do.)

  53. says

    gender feminists

    equity feminists

    Look, Kitten. I don’t give a damn what you think. If I say I’m a feminist, then by god I am one!

    Oh FFS. This crap? Again? I’ve lost count of the ‘equity feminist’ cupcakes who have shown up here.

  54. says

    I have no idea how many people share my name, and frankly, I don’t want to know.
    The one experience I had with someone else sharing my first and last names was while watching the national news on TV in the mid 1990′s. There was a story on prison conditions, and they interviewed one of the inmates…
    Yes, there it was, my name on the screen, with the word INMATE directly below. Me! INMATE! And I had to wonder how many of my high school acquaintances, nearly 20 years later, saw that and figured it was, you know, that guy… yeah, I remember him.
    I can’t bear to google my name. He might still be out there.

  55. says

    Mattir, I’m so sorry about Shadow and I’m sorry you have to be the one to shoulder such decisions. It’s tough, always having to be the one to do such things.

  56. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Caine, also:

    Two apologies

    You are lying, by any measure. Even granting your I’m sorry if you were upset that I did nothing wrong as an apology for argument’s sake, this is definitely not an apology:

    I really don’t know where in the fuck you get such whacked out ideas. I have already explained why I quoted something and apologized. That’s all there is to it. Drop it. FFS.

    Claiming that you already apologized does not constitute a second apology. Or do you imagine that this was a third apology?

    The stories you tell yourself about yourself are interesting, at least. I suppose there is no hope for you to engage with anything you or anyone else ever really said.

  57. 'Tis Himself says

    While my first and last names are fairly uncommon, I share both with another economist, a professor at the London School of Economics. Every so often we forward misdirected emails and snail mail to each other. He also sends me a copy of every paper he writes so I’ll have some idea of what he said when someone challenges me about what “I” wrote.

  58. says

    ‘Tis:

    He also sends me a copy of every paper he writes so I’ll have some idea of what he said when someone challenges me about what “I” wrote.

    Heh. Interesting that you both are in economics. Perhaps there’s something about your names…

  59. John Morales says

    ॐ, this is advice, not criticism: give it up; your quest is futile.

    Everyone else, I don’t apologise, but I assure you that I shall say no more on this particular matter.

  60. Gen, Uppity Ingrate. says

    Ciphter, OM MQ
    OMFSM, Vienna Teng is the SHIZZNIZZ! I’ve never heard of them before, thanks for the intro.

    ‘Tis Himself, 76 – Okay, that may be the coolest thing I’ve ever heard.

    Psych Today Oh Lourde, I’ve given up on that yonks ago. I follow the fields of psychology and psychiatry (psychiatry not so much, recently, due to time restrictions), being that I’m a life-long client of both and find people fascinating, complex and incredibly awesome and whatnot, but that? The only thing I haet more than pop-psych is evo psych – most of it reads as if it were written by a particularly noxious MRA who’d been given a veneer of credibilty, bestowed on it through some degree, and is thus INPHALLIBLE. (Heh).

    But seriously, I have yet to read anything on eve-psych that’s not just-so pat little explanations for why discrimination and playing finders-keepers with basic human rights like a bunch of five year olds (thanks whoever it was that said that on that clusterfuck over at JTs, it has now been stolen).

    Mattir Sorry to hear about your bun-bun. It’s horrible when you are the only one who has to shoulder the responsibility for the hard decisions. Many hugz and copious amounts of chocolate and other goodies your way via the magic of the Gynocratic Hive Mind Transport System (GHIMTS).

    My name: HIGHLY unusual. I was named for a movie character who was defacto (heh) de riguer in the early 80s ad recently-ish got a revamp in popularity when the series she starred in came back into a spotlight by way of prequels and sequels. So, yes, X (name) – (Generic and universal name suffix) is actually my given name.

    If you google just my actual name sans surname, you’ll find an adult entertainer who’s heavily into the spanking scene. To my delight, this actually makes a good cover although I dispute that she came by her name honestly to the strongest!

    However, if you knew either one of my surnames (maiden name very English and really uncommon, married name like “Smith” for South Africa XD), you could google me, find the actual me and probably end up on my doorstep by morning. *shudder*. It’s that unique. In fact, my HOTMAIL and my GMAIL accounts both used to be only my first name. IT’S THAT UNIQUE! So I’m totally internet paranoid.And that’s not even mentioning my middle name which is the only one in existence I know of without being something quite as egrarious as Jaxson.

    Hey, Carlie, thanks for that site! My result, (just on my first name!)

    There are
    1
    or fewer people with my name in the U.S.A.

    To be fair, our spanking-loving adult entertainer is from Britain, I think, and I’m from South Africa. Maiden last name: There are 3,312 people in the U.S. with the last name [last name] Married last name: There are 199 people in the U.S. with the last name [last name] LOLOLOL! Here, my married last name is so common, you can expect at least 10 kids in each group of 50+ kids to have it.

    I’mma play with that some more. (Small things)

  61. says

    FWIW, SG is correct that Caine said that ‘Tis’ comment was was “true enough”, when it actually wasn’t.

    here’s the entirety of it:

    Caine, Meanypants OM
    31 May 2012 at 6:49 pm

    ‘Tis:

    SG (LILAPWL) is a gay man.

    That doesn’t change my perception that LILAPWL went out of hir way to proclaim everyone drawing Mohammed as an Islamophobe and just now claimed that Louis’ sarcasm was sexist even though it quite obviously parodied sexism.

    True enough. I’ve had my fair share of outright fights with SG, I do not care for many of his ideas and tactics, to say the least. His history is a long and contentious on at Pharyngula.

    It doesn’t matter how often he changes his nym, SG still seems to fit best. Sorry about that, life is like.

    anyway; the italicized parts of ‘Tis’ comment are not true or even true enough, but Caine’s first words right after it make it look like she does think they are correct.

    [/pointless nitpicking]

  62. Hekuni Cat, MQG says

    keenacat, we are always here if you need us. *hugs*

    Lynna, I’m very glad you are seeing signs of improvement. That balance thing is an important one though. Please be extra careful.

    Blacksmith, Happy (Belated) Anniversary!

    QueQuoiHuh and Millicent, welcome to TET!

    Jennifer, Uppity Bitch and General Malcontent, what a horrible situation. I wish you and your ex the best of luck in your continuing battles.

    Happy (Belated) Birthday, Mattir! And I’m so sorry about Shadow. It is difficult to be the one to make those decisions and then carry them out. *hugs*

    Just_A_Lurker *hugs* I’m glad we can help.

    Nerd, I’m sorry things didn’t work out as planned.

  63. NuMad says

    That psychology today article is gold!

    Doesn’t it say something about a text when the introduction and the conclusion don’t really touch on the main subject of the core of the text, and vice versa? You could get whiplash where it gets at the end paragraph and -whoops!- this is supposed to be under the thin pretext of really just wanting to save feminism, so lets snap back into that pose.

    Where the author is at his most dishonest (other than the basic structure of the article) is when he says that “evolutionary psychology and equity feminism are eminently compatible,” when (like Crip Dyke says) his definition of the Bad Feminism is just a supposed rejection of evolutionary psychology. So talking about compatibility looks nonsensical, since it seems as though as it’s more of a prerequisite situation.

    And I’m pretty sure that cartoon is supposed to satirize this kind of thing. I wouldn’t rate this guy very high on self-awareness.

    And:

    At worst, they alienate women from embracing a label and movement designed by women, for women. That is absurd! It only begins to make sense when one realizes that many gender feminists are not women at all. They’re self-described womyn.

    Holy Fuck. I don’t know what to call that, but it reeks.

  64. Hekuni Cat, MQG says

    Caine:

    :Pounces on Hekuni Cat and hugses, for no particular reason.:

    ♥ ♥ ♥ *enthusiastic return hugses*

    Oh, Esme & Rubin. I put out various thieving goodies on my desk (bits of garlic bread, raspberries, pistachios and the like) and they are doing their absolute best to be wonderfully furtive in their thievery while knocking bowls over and racing over the top of one another.

    Esme just ran up and stomped all over my keyboard until I caved in and gave her a certs.

    I wish I could have seen this. How did you know I needed a rat update as a pain blocker?

    Chas in a glass.

    Squee! Chas is beyond adorable.

  65. says

    My name is apparently shared by 19 people in the US.

    I find this not entirely surprising. I know a bit of just how many of my surname are left, and how many crossed the Atlantic, thanks to folk in and around the family interested just enough in genealogy. But then, oddly, there’s also another one in my very (not huge) city, was another until a few years ago in my very (okay, huge) company, so I was still expecting maybe a few more.

    … also, there was this bloody fucking annoying ‘Andrew Milne’ (yes, that’s my first given name; I’ve no huge objection to it or nothin’ but read also the following) who was an extremely embarrassing and loud and active $cientologist back in the Usenet days when I first started popping up on the nets. It was one of the things that compelled me to go with ‘AJ’, then, and since, online, tho’ people did also call me that in high school (oh, and also, not at all, since, outside cyberspace, but anyway)…

    It just seemed like a recipe for confusion, otherwise, as even then I was nosing around skeptical/atheist groups. Also, he really made me cringe. I almost wish I could believe we’re not related, but of course we have to be, somehow–at the very least insofar as we’re both also related to the ammonites, I suppose–and probably we’ve a LCA rather since then, too, given what I know, again, of the relevant emigration patterns.

    He seems to have disappeared from the net, since some years back, tho’. I wonder vaguely, now and then, what gives with that. I guess. I find myself sorta hoping he isn’t wasting away in some twisted decades-long cult reeducation program somewhere ‘cos someone up the chain from him read something maybe I wrote on the net somewhere and figured their Andrew had gone over to Xenu’s side or somethin’…

    But then, it’s kinda a conflicted hope. Oh, and speaking of, yeah, also: Hail Xenu. I feel this odd need to say that, online, every few years…

    No reason. No, honest, it’s totally not to screw with his parole chances or nothin’. It’s just this thing.

    Also, the other one I know of in this city is apparently also a snowboarder. But while it seems a bit odd on first blush and you might easily be forgiven for thinking I’m just a Cylon after all and there are many copies, it’s really no huge surprise. It’s a requirement of citizenship that you choose an appropriate winter sport, see… For those of us born here, there’s this ceremony when we turn three. Anyway, there’s not really that many of those sports, so it’s really just the Birthday Problem with a smaller set.

  66. ibyea says

    Not surprised at that PsychToday article. Last time I read the magazine, I remember it sucked.

  67. says

    Blargh. Premature epostulation!

    My daughter called 911 on her father and me today. She had refused to clean her room for weeks so I was going through and donating some of the 12-inch-deep carpet of crap to Goodwill. She was threatening to call, but we didn’t realize she had actually done it until the dispatcher called back.

    Misterc answered and explained that his daughter was 8 and didn’t like her “punishment”, and the dispatcher said she would let him go take care of it. I think she took her cues from the fact that Misterc was chill and didn’t deny someone had called, and the kid was audible in the background indignantly shouting “they’re STEALING my STUFF!” like a healthy and sassy child. I certainly hope so, anyway, otherwise it’s kind of scary how easy it was to handwave away the call — I mean for all they knew her “punishment” could be involving boiling water or whippings or something :/ They didn’t even ask to talk to her or anything.

    Anyway, we had a Serious Chat about the problems with calling 911 without an emergency, even if you’re really pissed. She was completely aghast when I told her it was actually a crime to misuse 911 and assured me over and over “I didn’t know! I didn’t know!”

    And now that she’s in bed and not around to witness me craking up, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA. Someday I’m going to tell her dates this story >.<

  68. Gen, Uppity Ingrate. says

    Jennifer, thinking of you and your custody situation. I’m sure it’ll be fine but I totally get you worrying.

    Just a lurker, many, many hugs and well-wishes.

    ****

    My husband went for an interview yesterday. It’s the first ‘second interview’ that he’s gotten, so I’m awreck with nerves, DYING for them to just let us know if he got the job or if he didn’t, damn it.

    It’s been six months he’s been unemployed, and though I feel like a right ingrate for complaining, it’s been really, really hard.

    Of course, one of the reasons it’s been financially hard is because the month in which his contract was cancelled was the month we finally signed to buy a house, so yeah. #Firstworldproblems. We haven’t missed a house payment yet, though at this stage it’s a right art juggling all the debt XD. I’m just deeply grateful that I’m in a position where that is something that I CAN do.

    Looking at my life over the past year, I have to say that I’m not only proud and grateful, but I’m *better* than what I was this time a year ago.

    So yes, we have financial troubles and have to mete out electricity as if it’s saffron and can only take a real bath once a week and have to do with cold-water topping and tailing the rest of the time (sorry, TMI, but it really sucks) and that makes me worry that our version of CPS will call us up one day and try to take our kids because we’re neglectful and and and
    BUT
    My mental health is better than it’s been in almost a decade, despite the huge blow I took with my cousin’s suicide end of last year (same month my husband lost his job. December was BRUTAL) and my flagging levels of energy due to having to deal with the emotional and psychological fall-out in myself from that. Not to mention the devastation of seeing the few people I genuinely LOVE in this world in so much pain and dealing with something like “survivor’s guilt”, feeling like it’s monumentally unfair to them that thus far, they’ve been stuck with me being the one to survive this mental illness instead of that wonderful, bright, intelligent and all-round better young woman who had so much more to offer to the world.

    The hurt and guilt and absolute, devastating impact from that is getting better, thanks in no small part to copious therapy with a therapist who, while sometimes too “spiritual” and woo-like, still is wonderful to me and best of all, works for my institution so I don’t have to pay for her. My kids haven’t had to go hungry, and they’re all able to be dressed warmly and sleep warmly each night. And I don’t feel so alone and isolated and hopeless all the time anymore, thanks in part to the ferociousness of the Horde, even though I mostly just read and don’t really interact much.

    I just wanted to share that I’m in so much of a better place than I was this time last year even in the face of the nuclear blast that hit me six months ago (almost to a day. Hmm.), which is wonderful and feels great despite the challenges we still face, so here’s to working and hoping for continued improvement!

  69. Gen, Uppity Ingrate. says

    kristinc, ~ringy dingy~, 87

    o.O! That is amazing. Thanks for sharing!

    (I’m sure the 911 operators are trained in ways to tell if somekid is genuinely in danger or just pissed. Right? Yeah, I’mma go with that too. I mean there seems to be a clear difference, not the least in tone of voice, in “THEY’RE STEALING MY STUFF, YOU MUST ARREST THEM!” and a kid who is in real danger of abuse.)

  70. Hekuni Cat, MQG says

    According to How Many of Me, my name is unique in the US. While there are 12,549 people who share the exact spelling of my first name, only 2439 people share my current last name for a total of 1 or fewer people with my name in the US. I share my maiden name with 5,955 people, but again only 1 or fewer when they are combined together. Mr. Hekuni Cat shares his name with 29 people, but he has a very common first name, which is shared with 3,716,057 others.

  71. says

    Threadrupt question, and I hope this doesn’t create too much derision and accusations that I live in a cave or under a rock, but I received an ad today to receive two issues of Science News magazine. Despite the website saying the magazine was started in 1922 I can’t recall having ever heard of, or even seen Science News before. Does anyone else here receive it, or have dire warnings about it? I can’t imagine it’s any worse than Discover, and I still have the brain deficiency gene that makes me part with cash to buy that POS woo-dispensary sometimes.

    I can’t afford Nature and Science anymore so I have to get my science jollies the cheap and plebian way. If I won a lottery* I would consider getting them again, and maybe even the Astrophysics Journal – they only wanted $1200, or something, uhm, astronomical like that for a year’s subscription. It’s kind of a shame that reading something that isn’t mass consumerist fluff is so crazy expensive.

    *And yes, I have taken stats and probability courses and know the odds. My two bucks a week habit gives me a reason to get out of bed in the morningafternoon.

  72. Aquaria says

    Just that I care more about music than lyrics, and appreciate the musical qualities of a song more than the lyrical content, and unless the vocals are very prominent in the mix or I feel like singing along with the song, I don’t even know the lyrics to a lot of the music I listen to.

    Hence how I can enjoy Asian pop. I know what the lyrics are for a handful of songs (most of them Arashi), but it’s the sound itself of them that I enjoy: the composition, the arrangements, even the way the voices sound and how they match the “feel” of a particular song.

    In heavy rotation on my iPod are SS501′s Deja Vu, Not Alone by pan-Asia superstar (and former SS501 member) Park Jung Min, and most of the Arashi catalogue (as always). I still don’t know what most of them are about–and don’t care. I like the way they sound, and that’s all they have to do for me.

  73. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    I used to be a 911 operator. I can tell you that we aren’t trained for that in my region. I would almost certainly have sent someone to check on the home and child.

    I would likely have known that there would be a small chance of finding anything truly wrong, but our procedures don’t easily allow for canceling calls, and for good reason. I’m disappointed in the actions of the operator even though I’m sure it was much more convenient for the family.

    Perhaps there was a particularly high number of other calls or something. If it was mom’s exboyfriend in the house illegally, 911 would worry about getting sued. Not that 911 operators never screen out responses – they do – but it’s particularly difficult to predict how children will react and the cues that we use to determine that an adult is just overreacting don’t apply in the same way to children. There’s just to much variation to trust those cues.

    Anyway, it’s a funny story, but as a former operator it made me nervous and curious about their protocols.

  74. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Science News is a great rag.

    It has research briefs from multiple disciplines, whatever they think are the most important stories that week in the first 4 or 6 pages, then one 4 page feature article, then a one or 2 page articles, then a few pages of research briefs that are organized by discipline – these are about 1/2 the length of the briefs on “important” stories.

    This mag is accurate, no nonsense, straight to the point, and fairly well written (not superb, but it’s science writing, y’know?).

    The downside is that it’s shorter than other mags. The upside is that it’s weekly (2x a year they do a double issue then take a week off). Constant updates on well chosen topics.

    I love science news.
    ============
    also, just to give it a bump:
    anyone watch StarWars: Clone Wars, TAS?

    Just wondering if it’s worth getting started watching or not.

  75. says

    Anyway, it’s a funny story, but as a former operator it made me nervous and curious about their protocols.

    It made me kind of nervous and curious too. I mean I had a moment of “whew” and then went “wait … what if she really had been in trouble?” I would have thought they at least would have wanted him to put her on the phone and asked her, like, “is anyone trying to hurt you right now” or something.

    I hate to think that just being chill when 911 calls back would be the only thing an abuser would have to do to make it go away.

  76. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    OMFSM, Vienna Teng is the SHIZZNIZZ! I’ve never heard of them before, thanks for the intro.

    Yay! I’m so glad you like her!

    I know I’m supposed to be gone, but I’m really dragging now :( I tried to write my paper and I absolutely hate everything I’ve written so far and for some reason that so discourages me that I just want to shut down for the night.
    Boo.

  77. Gen, Uppity Ingrate. says

    Crip Dyke,

    anyone watch StarWars: Clone Wars, TAS?

    Haven’t watched it, sorry. I have a love-hate relationship with the Star Wars franchise, since that’s where… well. Internet paranoid.

    I liked the original (these days “middle”) 3. The new ones just feels less story more special effects and I’m ALL about the story so I don’t like that. However, I am completely biased, so YMMV.

  78. says

    Thanks, Crip Dyke. A single glowing review from TeT is worth a thousand Amazon reviews. I’ll put the order thingy in the mailbox tonight for the mailfetcher to pick up tomorrow. I’m only three months behind on my periodical reading, so what’s one more subscription⸮

  79. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    I’m the only one in the States with my name, which does not surprise me in the least.

    Also, I, uh, quick-meme’d Privilege-Denying JT. Jump on in! Some of them are repeats of what other people wrote, but now they’re all in one spot and you can add to them easily.

    My new favorite JT-meme (sorry Josh)

    Maybe it’s the copious amount of beer I’ve drunk talking, but that one hit the nail right on the head what with the trainwreck that first caught my attention.

  80. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Oh fuck there’s gotta be a way to get JT to see all this.

    If only I’d managed to avoid banning until now. Damn. Damn.

    Know what really sucks? As a pharyngulate, I’m kinda honor bound not to get up to my old Freenode tricks. Damn you, developing sense of ethics!

  81. says

    BTW, on the topic of names: I have it on good authority (my mom) that I was given the name “Irène” because it comes from the ancient Greek word for “peace”. That’s what you get for having young, idealistic language nerds for parents. (They had considered “Sophie” also because it’s from the Greek word for “wisdom”.)

    Too bad at the time I was born the name had gone out of fashion for two generations in my country, and the only women named Irene were then old ladies. It helped make me stick out like an awkward sore thumb in school.

  82. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    My real name is apparently means ‘dog’ in ancient hebrew, or ‘courage of a dog’ or something. How appropriate, huh?

    It apparently also means ‘male prostitute’ in ancient hebrew slang.

  83. pf says

    Cipher,

    At first I was like “Vienna Teng? Who?”

    Then I listened to all of her songs on youtube.

    re: Equity Feminism

    Is that where they start day trading or something? Invest in a bigger piece of the pie? Hostile takeover of glass ceiling manufacturers?

  84. theophontes (坏蛋) says

    @ Josh

    You have mail!

    Snailmail to be exact. Actually the bolding, italics and exclamation mark in the above are all totally unnecessary – it’ll take at least a week to get to the opposite side of our pale blue dot.

    Open with care. There are things in it that may fall out…

  85. keenacat says

    He is a very strange fuckwit. He shows signs that he could know what his problem is, but for some reason he is not able to recognise it.

    Indeed he does, that was why I engaged him in the first place. But he seems dead-set on remaining ignorant.

    I’m hugely impressed by how together you are and how strong you are being in the face of what must be overwhelming horribleness to experience.

    Thank you. In fact, I am quite surprised about myself. This first day was supremely horrible and yet here I am, pulling myself up by my own bootstraps. I guess all the therapy I went trough already have had a long-lasting effect on my ability to combat that depression shit. I also think instantly increasing my antidepressant dosage was a smart move. This probably enabled me to go get help.

    dianne,
    SATW is AWESOME. The interaction between Denmark and Germany is just sweet.
    http://satwcomic.com/border-control
    http://satwcomic.com/the-circle-of-beer

    Crip Dyke,
    just recently I had a ridiculous discussion with a fucknozzle on a board for young doctors… The thread was about german docs moving elsewhere, and he said “I’d NEVER go to sweden!! They are much too feminist = anti-men!!111elebenty”.
    I guess he was afraid of the strap-on of womens rights, harr!

    Did keenacat check in today? I have a few hugs and some e-booze for her.

    keenacat, we are always here if you need us. *hugs*

    I love you people. *sniffle* Honestly, you make dealing with this so much easier.

    Just_A_Lurker
    attach yourself to an open USB-Port, I’ve got some strenght to share with you. *hugs*

    And I don’t feel so alone and isolated and hopeless all the time anymore, thanks in part to the ferociousness of the Horde, even though I mostly just read and don’t really interact much.

    I just wanted to share that I’m in so much of a better place than I was this time last year even in the face of the nuclear blast that hit me six months ago (almost to a day. Hmm.), which is wonderful and feels great despite the challenges we still face, so here’s to working and hoping for continued improvement!

    High five and hugs.

  86. Walton says

    That doesn’t change my perception that LILAPWL went out of hir way to proclaim everyone drawing Mohammed as an Islamophobe

    I maintain that Draw Muhammad Day was a stupid and destructive stunt. In a society where Muslims are an oppressed minority and a favourite target of the racist far right, a bunch of white Western atheists “drawing Muhammad” was a classic case of punching down, not punching up.

    I don’t think everyone who participated in the event was an Islamophobe, but I do think that the event gave a convenient haven to the Islamophobic far right, for whom anti-Muslim rhetoric is a convenient cover for racism and xenophobia. As I recall, the Facebook page was infested with anti-Muslim hate speech. Which is not surprising, given that much of the atheist community continues to welcome bigots like Sam Harris and Pat Condell.

  87. Beatrice says

    My real name means born again in Latin.

    I would have probably gotten a non-Catholic name if it wasn’t for my grandmother. I think Tanja was a candidate.

  88. opposablethumbs says

    “equity feminists”? Isn’t that the kind who say “everyone is equal because I say so, and didn’t you know that equal means Just Like Me, except that people should just divide tasks by what they’re good at and you just happen to be better than me at cooking-and-cleaning-and-emotional-housework (::spits:: (not at the concept, but at women being lumbered with the sole responsibility)) and I just happen to be better at Important Stuff That Makes Money so now there is no such thing as racism or misogyny any more because I say so and you should all be grateful and see how egalitarian I am and isn’t that big of me so go get me a sammich cookie”? That kind?
    .
    Mattir that’s tough about Shadow. For what very little it’s worth, I think you’re doing the right thing. We delayed by about a week to 10 days over First Dog because we couldn’t cope, which I regret now. I agree that you ought to have the backup of the rest of the family, it must be even harder on your own.

  89. says

    “equity feminists”? Isn’t that the kind who…

    equity feminists are libertarian feminists. They believe that “equality” only means negative equality, and only means legal equality. They ignore systemic problems, they ignore effects of sexist culture (unless they’re atheist equity feminists; then they carve out an exception for religion, but even then you often get stupid shit about how women are “naturally” more inclined to be religious), they ignore the consequences of economic inequality, etc.

    Basically, like all libertarians, they have decided that “equity” merely means there aren’t any laws actively discriminating against you. Every other inequality is natural and fair and right. Or, it’s your own fault for not doing anything about it (since “no one” is stopping you from leaving a shitty job/housing arrangement/marriage/religion/whatnot)

  90. pf says

    Ah, so an “equity feminist” is a libertarian fake feminist.

    Thanks for the explanation.

  91. says

    Good morning!

    Caine

    Chas in a glass. Goofy boy.

    Well, it says Guinness on the glass!

    Gen
    Good wishes for your husband are coming out of the USB port

    names
    My last name has a Fancy Spelling™. It is actually quite common, meaning “villager of a godforsaken place ending in Bach (creek). So the suffix is -bächer. Only in the generation of my great-great-grandfather that was changed to -becher. Nobody can remember if it was an illiterate clerk or a family fight, but I always have to correct that. I’d have taken hubby’s if that weren’t even more prone to mistakes.
    Most annoying: my name is different from the kids’ name. So I tell people, spell mine and then get adressed: Thank you, Ms. Hubby’s last name.

    kristinc
    I suppose girlchild is in DeepShit™?

    Must remember not only to preview but also to post…

    beatrice
    Tanja?
    Hehehe

  92. says

    Oh, another Chill Girl™ over at Chris “I see no problem blaming RW” Hallquist’s:

    Hate-mail’s raison d’etre is to make the recipient feel bad. If the recipient is most bothered by sexism, hate-mail will take that form. It is not a good barometer of general beliefs.

  93. Beatrice says

    Giliell,

    I’m guessing we could have been sharing a name…?

    (Now that I think, Tanja isn’t free of religious past either. Maybe there was some other reason I didn’t get it.)

  94. keenacat says

    If the recipient is most bothered by sexism, hate-mail will take that form. It is not a good barometer of general beliefs.

    INORITE? Maybe that person writing fucking hate mail to make a random woman on the intertoobs feel bad is a totally reasonable, smart and kind individual with strong feminist beliefs!! You people are such bullies for making judgements about people’s character by their hatemail!!!elebenty

  95. pf says

    Donchaknow that hate mail is a perfectly valid way of taking petty vengeance on people over the internet?

    It’s not a douchebag flag if someone does that, or in any way unconstructive spewing of hate.

    It’s just letting off some steam, don’t be silly. All those threats just mean they’re a little bit upset.

    I mean, seriously, just grow a thicker skin.

    (DISCLAIMER: the above may contain traces of sarcasm)

  96. Gnumann says

    Hate-mail’s raison d’etre is to make the recipient feel bad. If the recipient is most bothered by sexism, hate-mail will take that form. It is not a good barometer of general beliefs.

    And the motivation for wanting a random stranger feel bad would be..? I don’t get this excuse at all. Am I dense here?

  97. 'Tis Himself says

    Jadehawk #80

    FWIW, SG is correct that Caine said that ‘Tis’ comment was was “true enough”, when it actually wasn’t.

    <snip>

    That doesn’t change my perception that LILAPWL went out of hir way to proclaim everyone drawing Mohammed as an Islamophobe and just now claimed that Louis’ sarcasm was sexist even though it quite obviously parodied sexism. [emphasis added]

    anyway; the italicized parts of ‘Tis’ comment are not true or even true enough,

    What part of MY PERCEPTION is untrue?

  98. Tony says

    Good Morning All.
    Just got off work.
    Cats are fed.
    Dogs are fed.
    I have alcohol beginning to course through me (nothing like the amount that Louis may have by now; slow down my friend, let me catch up!).

    Found this amusing article:
    http://now.msn.com/now/0530-incredible-hulk-paint
    _______________________
    Nutmeg:

    My middle name is bland. I wish my folks had given me my mom’s name as a middle name. It’s old-fashioned, but at least it would mean something.

    I don’t know why I didn’t wonder about this before…what the heck is the point of a middle name?
    Mine starts with a ‘V’ and I love when people ask what it is, b/c I don’t tell them (sheer fun, not out of privacy), but let them know the letter it starts with. Watching people try to guess is amusing. Even when I tell people that it’s not at all a common name (it’s my fathers’ middle name as well and he said it was chosen by his mother from a book she read back in the late 40s, early 50s) they *still* try to guess it. No one has ever gotten it. I just did a quick search and it’s Latin for ‘valiant’. Eh. I don’t know if that’s the adjective that I would use to describe myself, but then it’s not like I chose the name.

    dianne:

    Ant potatoes? I have several images in my mind of what an ant potato could be and much as I am sure it’s a typo, I really like the idea of a potato that is bred to be particularly attractive to ants and lure them in, but has something sticky inside so they can’t get back out. The potato should be harvested and immediately cooked to preserve the fresh formic acid flavor and crunchiness of the ants, along with the sweetness of the potato itself (which will turn starchy if kept.)

    I read your comment at work earlier tonight and had a laughing fit. No one knew what the heck was wrong with me.
    When I first read Weed Monkey’s comment “minced meat sauce ant potatoes” I interpreted it literally. Can’t imagine that potatoes with ants and minced meat sauce would be tasty, but YMMV.
    Your interpretation is infinitely more amusing :)

    ImaginesABeach:

    It’s the background noise. I think that’s probably part of the reason “mild” harassment doesn’t get reported on surveys, and I think it’s probably part of the reason why having the same conversation with jerks over and over and over again might make some people less tolerant of the jerks.

    Would an example of ‘background noise’ be:
    2 guys and 1 woman sit at my bar. One guy orders an Apple Martini. I overhear the other guy say “Dude, that’s gay!” ?

    Crip Dyke:

    I have some time to kill [not really, I have too much to do, but I'm taking some time to kill anyway] and was thinking about watching Clone Wars: TAS.

    Anyone have any opinions on it? Worth it? and most importantly…

    Does it have JarJar?

    Yes.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    With a double side order of Yes.
    (uh, wrt “is it worth watching?”)
    I have seen only one episode with Jar Jar. I really like the show and appreciate the fact that it explores the SW universe without using the same old characters (well Anakin is technically same old same old, but sorta kinda not really).
    I think the animation is fantastic. The scripting is tight (little over exposition) and the opportunity for lesser known characters to shine is quite well done. Depending on where you draw your line at annoying characters, there may be one member of the cast that you may find annoying. There are more than a few spoilers (sort of), so I don’t want to give you any details, but I think it’s well worth watching (between this and Young Justice on Cartoon Network, Friday evenings are quite enjoyable; once I get home at 4 am that is).

  99. John Morales says

    Tony:

    I don’t know why I didn’t wonder about this before…what the heck is the point of a middle name?

    To help distinguish people from each other by name, in particular for written records, I imagine.

    (To my mum and family in Spain, I’ve always been “Juan Ramón”, never just “Juan”)

  100. Tony says

    Abednego?

    Jehosephat?

    Judas?

    Would it be odd to name a child Judas? It seems like there would be inherent baggage in that name, what with Christianity being so widespread.
    Likewise (sorta), do any parents name their children ‘Jesus’-with that pronunciation?

    Carlie:

    There is a site somewhere that takes the popularity of your first name and your last name and does simple statistics of it to estimate how many other people in the country share your same firstname lastname combo.

    Me: Real First Name 1,135,680
    Last name 749,377
    Name I go by 304,312

    People with same {real} first name & last name: 2,713

    Mattir:

    Fuckity fuck. I hate being the one who has to make the life and death decisions for pets because the other adults involved are some combination of too squeamish, intellectualized, or detached to get involved beyond “it’s your decision.”

    I know that losing family members and animal companions is part of life, but dammit! it’s just not fair.
    I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this. I don’t know if I would ever stay and watch another pet be euthanized. I’ve been through it once (my loving, attentive, ‘runs from the other side of the house when you call her name’ cat had near complete kidney failure several years ago; what made it all the worse-she was still perky and loving up til the end, despite her physical condition).
    I have to go now.

  101. Gnumann says

    I don’t know why I didn’t wonder about this before…what the heck is the point of a middle name?

    It also cuts the number of children needed to preserve all the obscure naming traditions in a family in half.

  102. pf says

    Multiple names can also have ritual significance.

    Some people come with three names so that three saints will be watching over them, which is also a reference to the trinity.

    This is not actually useful in the reality-based sense, but people seem to believe in this sort of thing.

  103. says

    The potato should be harvested and immediately cooked to preserve the fresh formic acid flavor

    Now that I read this again it reminds me of something weird we sometimes did as little kids: we took a fresh birch branch, peeled off the skin and teased an anthill with it until the ants sprayed it with acid. Then we licked it off the branch.

    I still have absolutely no idea what the point of this exercise was. I mean, it didn’t taste particularly good, but not particularly bad either. It must be some strange prank that’s been going on for generations, and no-one knows any more what’s so funny about it.

    Luckily I learned some a bit more useful things from my parents, like where to find the rhizome of the common polypody. It’s got quite a nice liquorice-y taste to it.

  104. says

    My given names have nothing to do with christianity, which is nice. Probably not intentional, though, as both are slightly modernised versions of names that have been in the family. First comes from Greek, the middle one is Nordic.

    And the family name? My great-great-grandfather didn’t have one until he was able to buy the land he had been farming as a tenant farmer, then he just picked something. (Not a bad choice, though.)

  105. John Morales says

    So, I read that the UN’s World Tourism Organisation has appointed Robert Mugabe as a UN “leader of Tourism”.

    (I guess he must have done great things for tourism in Zimbabwe)

  106. says

    Beatrice:

    Tanja

    I had a friend named Tonja when I was in elementary school. Damn, I haven’t thought about her in years….

    re: middlenames:
    Gnumann:

    It also cuts the number of children needed to preserve all the obscure naming traditions in a family in half.

    This is why we’re going to give Darkfetus a middle name– my parents don’t much care why/how we choose a name, but I know Mr Darkheart’s family is all about passing names around.

  107. says

    From Singapore to cold place near Melbourne. I’m not amused nor happy. And I just got home to an email to me from a female commenter on one of the recent “tell us what you think and how we can improve things” threads, who showed me evidence that her comment on exactly that question was blocked/censored/killed by the blog host. Now who’s hypocritical. Anyway, I will let it rest, too many internet dramas already, and I have laundry to do. Sucks to be home.

  108. ImaginesABeach says

    Tony -

    Would an example of ‘background noise’ be:
    2 guys and 1 woman sit at my bar. One guy orders an Apple Martini. I overhear the other guy say “Dude, that’s gay!” ?

    Yes. Textbook example.

    Or when I go to the liquor store for a bottle of wine and the employee offers to show me some bottles with “real pretty labels.”

  109. keenacat says

    Or when I go to the liquor store for a bottle of wine and the employee offers to show me some bottles with “real pretty labels.”

    Dafuq?? What an asshole.

  110. says

    Giliell

    Tanja?
    Hehehe

    Is it something funny auf Deutch? In Finland it’s not an uncommon name, and as far as I know comes from Russian Tatjana.

  111. says

    I do not understand California:

    California’s historic ban on ‘gay therapy’ for kids

    Late May 30, the California Senate passed a bill, 23-13, that would prohibit licensed therapists from performing conversion therapy on gay and lesbian youths. “The entire medical community is opposed to these phony therapies,” said state Sen. Ted Lieu (D), the bill’s sponsor, before its passage. “These non-scientific efforts have led in some cases to patients later committing suicide, as well as severe mental and physical anguish. It’s not just that people are wasting their time and money on these therapies that don’t work, it’s that these therapies are dangerous.”

    So: California is trying to protect LGBT kids (good for them!), while at the same time denying LGBT adults marriage equality?

    THIS IS WHY DIRECT DEMOCRACY SUCKS, PEOPLE.

  112. says

    Crip Dyke

    anyone watch StarWars: Clone Wars, TAS?

    Do you mean the drawn one from ’03, or the CGI version from ’08 forward? I’ve never seen a single episode of the former, but the latter is surprisingly OK.

  113. pf says

    @Audley,

    California passed gay marriage, but then it got killed by ballot initiative.

    In theory, the ban on gay-away therapy could be defeated in a similar effort, thought I don’t think that’s likely to happen.

    Or at least I would be very badly disappointed if it did. I’ve had disappointments like that…

  114. says

    I really liked the second Vienna Teng track (‘Nothing Left For Us To Find’) better on first listen. Very nice. And just rattled off like that, that’s just beyond awesome, seriously. The reserves in the woman to be able to pull that, that’s just seriously impressive. Oh, what, you want a song, and I get an hour? ‘Kay. Right. Well, stand back, then…

    Honestly, tho’, neither of ‘em was exactly ‘boom’ for me, either. But I suspect both are the sorta thing I’d need to listen to a few times for it to start to matter, y’know.

    Oh, and I will, definitely. Which I think says something.

    Also more recent, not so much heavily forboding, but just nicely musing somewhere near the space: The Duhks’ Mists of Down Below

    That one, again, it’s about the whole package. Lyrics aren’t on their own blazing power (tho’ good, and that central image is so evocative), but put it together with the whole thing–the definite, very self-possessed ‘fiddle’ timbre and stylings in the violin, the way especially that part tracks and dances around the vocal like they’re partners on a dance floor that know each other well enough to both complement and respect each other, doing their own thing without getting in each other’s way–then add the chuckle of the banjo, the slight, pained throatiness in the vocal, it’s all just such a perfect thing, all put together.

  115. says

    pf:

    California passed gay marriage, but then it got killed by ballot initiative.

    Which is why I think that the referendum system is total horseshit.

    Ballot initiatives are also the reason why California’s penal system is as bad as it is– I’ve seen it described as committing crimes against humanity. The “three strikes” law was put to a popular vote and look where that’s gotten the state.

    *sigh*

    What a fucked up place.

  116. Ogvorbis says

    Hello, all. Happy Thursday.

    Four scout groups today. I have read them the riot act.

    And I just found a tpyo in a document which we sent to a printer on Friday. The good news is, we should be able to catch them before they start printing. And if not, the extra ‘n’ in the middle of a hyphenated word shouldn’t be too obvious.

    My mom is Margaret Mary, her mom was Margaret Mary, her mom was Margaret Mary, her mom was…

    Dad was William David. His (bio)dad was David William. His dad was William David. His dad was David William. I broke the pattern (because dad’s dad realized just how nuts dad’s mom was and left). For Boy, we were inspired by a John Denver song. So he totally broke the pattern.

    We had a diversity training at work yesterday.

    We don’t need diversity training here. The longer you are here, diverse it gets.

    You have my sympathy. But it also sounds like it was actually a well thought out programme. Hmm. I wonder what that would be like?

    Giving Feminism a Bad Name

    Lemme guess. Actually trying to accomplish the goals is what give feminism a bad name?

    ———

    There are 3,855,702 people in the US with my first name. There are 637,740 with my last name. And there are 7,838 with the same first and last name. Wow.

    There are, however, only about 1,600 in the US with Girl’s first name (using the Hungarian spelling of it, anyway).

    I assume that accounts for spelling “Fox” with four letters?

    The ’3′ is silent.

  117. says

    Irene Delse:

    Too bad at the time I was born the name had gone out of fashion for two generations in my country, and the only women named Irene were then old ladies.

    A long time favourite author of mine, Jan Burke, has a main protagonist in her books by the name of Irene Kelly.

  118. pf says

    @Audley #143,

    The real problem is that the voters are poorly educated, and in their ignorance, easily swayed.

  119. says

    Which is why I think that the referendum system is total horseshit.

    Indeed.

    US high school history textbooks need to spend way more time on Bleeding Kansas, since apparently a large number of USians feel that popular vote is the best way to determine civil rights.

  120. says

    pf:

    The real problem is that the voters are poorly educated, and in their ignorance, easily swayed.

    If you’re talking about California, SoCal in particular, that only goes so far. SoCal is stuffed with entitlement-minded twits who are conservative and think they know best. Then there’s the mormon contingent and the catholic contingent and the rest of the fucking theists. Then you have a boatload or a hundred of those who feel teh homosecksuality is against their culture.

  121. says

    I just want to say how ridiculously excited I am that other people here read SATW. I’ve read through the archive, like, three times, and I’ve learned a tiny bit of Danish and Swedish from translating the one that appeared in the actual languages of the characters.

  122. ChasCPeterson says

    For Boy, we were inspired by a John Denver song.

    So you named him Rocky? Or Sunshine?
    Or West Virginia?
    (Or Country Boy?)

  123. pf says

    If you really want to keep those people away from voting on laws, what will be your rock solid, well-founded and just criteria for selecting the ones who are allowed to?

    For the US, the current system of representation isn’t working very well to select the best ones, so calling that a solution isn’t very sane.

    Unless your desired outcome was a government which arrogates unto itself the right to kill anyone at any time or place, and to hold anyone prisoner indefinitely without trial.

  124. says

    Falling Skies anyone ? Noah Wyle as the post-apocalypse cool dude ? Work for you ? I’m withholding judgment for now, want to see a few more episodes…

  125. says

    Persephone seems like a nice name, but it’d never be a good one in Finland as perse = arse in Finnish, in meaning and connotations.

  126. Beatrice says

    Falling Skies anyone ? Noah Wyle as the post-apocalypse cool dude ? Work for you ? I’m withholding judgment for now, want to see a few more episodes…

    Noah Wyle. Ah, memories. Had a bit of a crush on him back in the 90s.

    This is the first time I hear about the series. I only have 15GB monthly, so I don’t really download anything unless I’m pretty sure it’s worth it. So, a bit of judgment anyway?

  127. cm's changeable moniker says

    Mary Rowe on micro-inequities; 20+ years old and still relevant, *sigh*.

    More.

    Apparently there’s only one of me in the USA.

    *waves at transatlantic brother/sister*

    (My name used to be unambiguous but has lately become unisex.)

  128. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    ‘Tis Himself,

    What part of MY PERCEPTION is untrue?

    Since you have what I said available to you, you could confirm that I did not “claim that Louis’ sarcasm was sexist” and you could admit that your perception was erroneous.

    I note that you’ve shown up to defend having an opinion without caring whether that opinion was based on evidence.

    Next time a Christian says “my perception is that God exists and that marriage is between a man and a woman,” I expect you to say “okie doke!” and refrain from challenging their bullshit.

  129. says

    pf:

    The real problem is that the voters are poorly educated, and in their ignorance, easily swayed.

    Sorry, no.

    We’re seeing this right here on FtB– the privileged don’t want their privilege challenged, period. Education, “rational” thought, whatever may help to some extent, but it’s not going to solve the problem of the majority of the electorate voting against equal rights for minorities.

    Shorter me: people are terrible.

    I’m not saying that voters in the US are highly educated or that there isn’t a problem with corporate money/religious institutions having far too much say in our elections. These are problems that need to be fixed regardless if you’re pro- or anti- voter referendum, but that will not solve the problem inherent in direct democracy (“the tyranny of the majority” if I can use/abuse a term from Poli Sci 101).

  130. Sarahface says

    Good afternoon, all.
    I believe this is my first time commenting in TET (I’m also an almost-permanent lurker, so it’s entirely possible that I’ve never actually commented at Pharyngula before.)

    I know I’m way behind the times (this is what exam season does to me), but I want to thank all of you who jumped in at JTs, y’all are *fucking awesome* and have superhuman tolerance for bullshit. (I might have had to stop myself from throwing my laptop against the wall several times.)


    @Cipher:
    Cool songs! I know some of Vienna Teng’s songs, but I’d never heard those two before, and they have a place in my heart already – particularly, as the commenter somewhere above me said, the second one.


    @Ogvorbis:

    The ’3′ is silent.

    I know what you did there >.> (For the most part, I really like Tom Lehrer, and anyone who quotes him gets automatic cool points in my book.)


    Oh, and I *think* it was someone here who linked to A Girl And Her Fed, so whoever it was, thank you for that, I’ve just spent an enjoyable few evenings archive-trawling.

  131. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    equity feminists are libertarian feminists. They believe that “equality” only means negative equality, and only means legal equality.

    And in typical libertarian fashion, if you aren’t one of them then that means you aren’t in support of any of the things they’re in support of. (Like how only libertarians want to decriminalize cannabis and end aggressive wars.)

    Therefore, if you don’t define yourself as an “equity feminist”, then you are at best indifferent to women’s legal rights in other countries. This is why “equity feminists” can get along so well with MRAs — a shared hobby of shaming women who talk about “first world problems” like rape culture.

    Because the distinction between “negative” and “positive” rights is arbitrary and misleading, there is no reason to accept their false dichotomy of “equity” and “gender” feminism.

    And there’s good reason to reject it: those who self-describe as “equity feminists” have defined it to benefit themselves, the same way that any other extremist likes to claim “the middle ground” and catch anyone who falls for the golden mean. But I’ve never met a “gender feminist” who didn’t care about equity; the dichotomy is just false.

  132. says

    Interesting article that hypothesizes that the reason the Harper government in Canada is gutting all the environmental monitoring science is his fundy religious bullshit. I can see it. Another death cult fuckwit that wants Teh Endtymz© to hurry up so they can get beamed up by Dear Leader. I was embarrassed the day my country elected him. It almost makes me pine for the days of Jean Chrétien. Sure he was scamming money out to croneys, but at least he believed the climate scientists:

    http://www.canada.com/Religion+Factor+Canada+Environmental+Politics/6712311/story.html

  133. Ogvorbis says

    Welcome, Sarahface.

    (For the most part, I really like Tom Lehrer, and anyone who quotes him gets automatic cool points in my book.)

    Excellent. Only 27 more cool points and I’ll be at an even -100,000 cool points!

  134. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Welcome, Sarahface!!!

    So many new faces, it’s great. Reminds me of my de-lurking last year after 3d4k…

    …which has now become 1y100k, but who’s counting?

  135. pf says

    @Audley Darkheart (liar and scoundrel), #158

    I’m not convinced that a populace not fit to vote on law is fit to vote in someone who can vote correctly for them, though.

  136. Louis says

    Welcome Sarahface!

    Watch out, there seem to be puddles of sexism around. Don’t tread in them. It’s nothing to worry about, we usually clear them up quickly!

    Louis

  137. says

    pf:

    I’m not convinced that a populace not fit to vote on law is fit to vote in someone who can vote correctly for them, though.

    Really? Look at the states that passed marriage equality in their leges. Do you honestly think that it would have passed if left up to the voters?

    (Here’s a hint, in New York it wouldn’t have. We have a very motivated, pretty conservative rural popultion.)

  138. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Also the “feminists who don’t call themselves equity-feminists don’t accept evolutionary psychology” thing is misleading.

    As a counterexample we have here Chas, who sometimes spends considerable effort trying to show that evo-psych is worth taking seriously as a scientific discipline; yet Chas opposes the facile legal-equality-only stuff when it shows up.

    As another counterexample we have PZ, who has repeatedly said that something like evo-psych is obviously true, though he finds the field insufficiently rigorous at the moment.

  139. chigau (違う) says

    Welcome Sarahface and all the other delurkers.
    (I’m soooo far behind)

  140. raven says

    Crosspost from WEIT. FYI basis.

    Well this news is horrible (Latest poll on evolution acceptance, down 6%!!!). Just got to face the ugly fact here.

    But the news isn’t all bad. The National Council of Churches yearbook for 2012 is out.

    Total church membership reported in the 2012 Yearbook is 145,691,446 members, down 1.15 percent over 2011.

    According to the churches own figures, 1.5 million people left xianity last year. US xianity is slowing dying.

    There are some real limitations in this data though.

    1. Not all churches report their data to the NCC. For a lot of fundie churches the NCC is a heretical organization that assumes that all xian churches are True Xians.

    2. The biggest one, a lot of churches grossly inflate their figures to appear more powerful than they are. They just lie. The RCC reports stable membership by counting baptisms only. The reality is they have lost 1/3 of their members, 22 million people.

    3. Who is really getting hammered are the moderate xians. They are losing 3-4% of their members per year. This is not so slow suicide in the historical context of thing. I did my part here, dropping out of one of them.

  141. Matt Penfold says

    I just make some horseradish sauce using fresh root. My sinuses are now as clear as they have been in years. These two things are not unrelated.

  142. raven says

    I keep saying US xianity is slowing dying. That is what all the polls and statistics say.

    It’s slow though. The real number per year is probably at least 2 million people leaving. And young people are notably less likely to be members.

    US xianity is projected to fall below 50% by 2030 or so. I might still be alive then but that is statistically pushing it a bit.

  143. Happiestsadist says

    Pteryxx @ #62: You know, now that you mention it, that explains why he was so familiar to me. But hey, what’s more emotional abuse when he can he bravely truth-telling?

    *appendage bump*

  144. pf says

    @Audley

    But there you’re saying that enacting laws against the will of most people is correct, because it matches our ideology.

    Doesn’t that sound fundamentally wrong?

    How you arrive at the right decision matters not only for such pesky concerns as ethics and morality, but also for how well it will last.

    In the current climate, I can see how reversing gay marriage law can be a campaign item.

  145. says

    pf:

    But there you’re saying that enacting laws against the will of most people is correct, because it matches our ideology.

    Doesn’t that sound fundamentally wrong?

    Except I’m not saying that at all.

    I’m talking about civil rights specifically (as per my original post regarding California). The will of “most of the people” is flat out wrong if they’re oppressing a minority.

  146. Beatrice says

    But there you’re saying that enacting laws against the will of most people is correct, because it matches our ideology. when it protects basic human rights of minorities.

    Because human rights shouldn’t be put up to vote at all.

  147. Sarahface says

    To everyone who has waved, said hello/welcome/a variation on that – thanks :)
    (I *knew* the shark-tank rumours were just a front :P)

    @Louis:
    Don’t worry, I know – I’ve seen how you (general) deal with them.
    (It’s also awesome fodder for my collection of epic insults, too. >.>)

  148. says

    In other words, it seems like you’re arguing that a referendum like Amendment 1 in North Carolina is ethically sound because the majority of votes approved of it.

    Is it ethical to deny a minority group equal rights, even if the majority of the population agrees that they shouldn’t be have those rights?

    How is that not supporting tyranny?

  149. Ogvorbis says

    I keep saying US xianity is slowing dying. That is what all the polls and statistics say.

    Unfortunately, it is making the radical Christians — fundamentalists, christianists, dominionists, etc — more powerful relative to Christianity as a whole. As your stats note, the lukewarm Christians are leaving at a rate of 1 in 25 to 1 in 33 per year. The fundies, however, the ones who want to create (some of them, not all) a Christian version of Iran, are holding on to their flock a little better. Which means, of course, that the beliefs of ‘median Christians’ is moving to the authoritarian and fundamentalist end of the spectrum faster than a swallow carrying a coconut.

  150. says

    Beatrice:

    Because human rights shouldn’t be put up to vote at all.

    A billion fucking times, this. I’m getting damn sick and tired of the fact that this even needs to be pointed out!

  151. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Pteryxx @ #62: You know, now that you mention it, that explains why he was so familiar to me. But hey, what’s more emotional abuse when he can he bravely truth-telling?

    Happiestsadist, don’t you think it’s emotionally abusive for you to jump in to start a fight with me out of nowhere, for no reason, and then blame me for fighting back?

  152. says

    Ogvorbis:

    Which means, of course, that the beliefs of ‘median Christians’ is moving to the authoritarian and fundamentalist end of the spectrum faster than a swallow carrying a coconut.

    QFT. It’s going to get much worse here before it gets better.

  153. says

    From the Opinion pages of the New York Times:

    Thirteen Roman Catholic dioceses and some Catholic-related groups scattered lawsuits across a dozen federal courts last week claiming that President Obama was violating their religious freedom by including contraceptives in basic health care coverage for female employees. It was a dramatic stunt, full of indignation but built on air….

    Under the Constitution, churches and other religious organizations have total freedom to preach that contraception is sinful and rail against Mr. Obama for making it more readily available. But the First Amendment is not a license for religious entities to impose their dogma on society through the law. The vast majority of Americans do not agree with the Roman Catholic Church’s anti-contraception stance, including most American Catholic women.

    The First Amendment also does not exempt religious entities or individuals claiming a sincere religious objection from neutral laws of general applicability, a category the new contraception rule plainly fits. In 1990, Justice Scalia reminded us that making “the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land” would mean allowing “every citizen to become a law unto himself.”…

    This is a clear partisan play. The real threat to religious liberty comes from the effort to impose one church’s doctrine on everyone.

    I particularly liked the clarity of this presentation. “The First Amendment also does not exempt religious entities or individuals claiming a sincere religious objection from neutral laws of general applicability, a category the new contraception rule plainly fits.”

    And “But the First Amendment is not a license for religious entities to impose their dogma on society through the law.”
    Source.

  154. says

    Because human rights shouldn’t be put up to vote at all.

    A billion fucking times, this. I’m getting damn sick and tired of the fact that this even needs to be pointed out!

    But but but but! Democracy! That means the majority gets their way every freaking time, doesn’t it?

    STOP MAKING ME FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE IN MY PRIVILEGE, YOU BIG MEANIES!

    An addendum to one of my earlier posts about marriage equality:

    (Here’s a hint, in New York it wouldn’t have [passed]. We have a very motivated, pretty conservative rural popultion.)

    At the time the bill was passed, a slim majority of New Yorkers who responded to various polls did support marriage equality. But answering a pollster and voting are two completely different things. If the issue was left up to the voters, it would have been a campaign of which side can get more of their supports to the polls on election day?. My bet is that the rural conservative right would have been more successful in that regard (let’s face it, conservative orgs have more money than equal rights groups), so the will of “the majority of the people” would not have been served.

    Not that it should have been left up to a vote in the first place. Thank goodness New York doesn’t allow for state wide ballot initiatives like that– for that to happen, we would have to change out state constitution, which would require a constitutional convention (no joke!) and those are so notoriously corrupt that there’s no way any members/aspiring members/monied interests of the legislature would ever let go of that much power. For once, my corrupt as shit state government works!

  155. Louis says

    Right, I’m off for a long weekend of stupidity, grilled meat and beer. And luckily, intelligent female (and even some male) company. I’ll try to keep the sexism to a minimum.

    Keep a couple of slimepit trolls warm for me, I’ll be back Tuesday.

    Louis

  156. says

    In reference to my post @186, E.J. Dionne wrote an article in the Washington Post that made the political connection more clearly. Here’s an excerpt (emphasis mine).

    As my friends at Commonweal, the progressive Catholic magazine, noted in an important editorial: “This initiative is being launched during an election year in which one party has assumed the mantle of faith and charges the other with attacking religion. The bishops need to do much more to prevent their national campaign from becoming a not-very-covert rallying point for the Republican Party and its candidates. If that happens, it is the church and the cause of religious freedom that will suffer.” Commonweal said there is something “hyperbolic” about how the bishops are framing their campaign, and I see this lawsuit as one aspect of that.

  157. says

    Satoshi Kanazawa should have been the kiss of death for Psych Today, but, then again, most of the online mainstream media does little but troll for page hits.

    Mattir, I’m really sorry about Shadow.

    KristinC: WOW. I’m glad that all turned out OK.

    Jadehawk:

    Or, it’s your own fault for not doing anything about it (since “no one” is stopping you from leaving a shitty job/housing arrangement/marriage/religion/whatnot)

    Oh, you mean, like Julietdefarge, every time she comments here?

    Welcome, Sarahface! I second the Tom Lehrer love.

    pf, come off it, this isn’t exactly an unaddressed legal issue. As already said above, you don’t put human rights up for a vote. Period.

    Lynna, that’s pretty rich coming from E.J. Dionne, who was one of those “liberal” xtian menz who concern-trolled for the “right” of Catholic employers to deny women contraception coverage.

  158. Ariaflame, BSc, BF, PhD says

    Trying to decide whether I will go to research meeting next week. Sure I’ve been too busy to do research but I’ve been trying at least to attend the meetings, but after being talked over twice I left the last meeting and am not sure whether I should go until I’ve actually got some stuff to specifically contribute if I’m going to be ignored anyway.

    My parents chose names for us that they thought couldn’t have a diminutive. Mostly I like mine though most people in Australia pronounce it in a way that seems wrong to me.

  159. says

    Audley:

    STOP MAKING ME FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE IN MY PRIVILEGE, YOU BIG MEANIES!

    Yep. Fuck them with poison sugar on top. Humans excel at oppressing other humans. We’re hardly trustworthy on that score.

  160. says

    Also in reference to my post @186, Sarah Kliff, writing for WonkBlog, does not give us a very reassuring look at some of the legal issues. I think religious organizations are trying to remove all protections that prevent them from fucking over women. And Republicans are loving this because it plays into their trumped up “War on Religion” they claim Obama is waging.

    Everything hinges on how courts interpret a law called the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, or RFRA.

    Under that provision, signed into law by President Bill Clinton in 1993, religious institutions can challenge federal laws that put a “substantial burden” on their ability to exercise a sincere religious belief. And if they can prove a substantial burden, then it’s up to the government to show two things: that the law furthers a compelling government interest and that that interest cannot be furthered in any other way that would be less restrictive to religion.

    The Obama administration, for its part, has asked courts to dismiss these suits for lack of standing, since the requirement to cover birth control hasn’t started yet. But after it does start, in August 2013 for many of the religious objectors, courts will have to get into the more substantive issues at hand. They would have to answer questions such as: Does requiring insurers to cover contraceptives at religiously affiliated institutions constitute a “significant burden”? Is providing birth control a compelling government interest, and if it is, can it be accomplished in a way that is less restrictive to religion?

    Courts haven’t taken up these issues in previous case law, as they relate to the particular issue of providing contraceptives. That makes it difficult for experts to predict how they might rule — and whether these lawsuits could ultimately take down this part of the health reform law.

  161. Ogvorbis says

    It’s going to get much worse here before it gets better.

    Definately.

    Especially since Christianity already has a very well developed martyr complex. If a decision goes against them (in courts, in public opinion, in an election) it just reinforces the idea that Satan inspires the opposition. To disagree with their revealed beliefs is to disagree with gods. And disagreeing with gods is following the devil.

    Especially since Christianity is antithetical to democracy. Democracy, politics, is the art of the compromise. If everyone who disagrees (their version of) the teachings of gods, then to compromise with an opponent is, literally, to make a deal with the devil.

    Especially since Christianity has either coopted, or been coopted by, the survivalist gun-nut wing of US politics. If one views one’s political opponents as literally evil, as followers of Satan, then arming one’s self to the teeth is logical reaction.

    Especially since Christianity sees this world as a temporary lodging place, a rental unit, from which the chosen will be moving on up come the rapture. The environment? Who cares — come the return, it won’t matter. The poor? Who cares — come the return, those who believe the right things about the right things will be fine. Peak oil? Global warming? Toxic waste? National debt? None of that will matter come the apacolypse. And in the meantime, you can use them as bludgeons to keep the flock in line.

    Especially since Christianity has, to a great extent, embraced the Prosperity Gospel. Education? Why bother? If you believe, truly believe, you will become wealthy no matter what. Helping the poor? Why bother? If they were True Christians in the right way, they’d be wealthy.

    Especially since Christianity views adversity as a recruiting tool. When things look their darkest, when your kids are starving, give your last few dollars to the megachurch’s expansion campaign and you will be rewarded (maybe in this life, maybe in the next). And all those who are starving, out of work, just barely making it, the poor, the huddled masses, to whom else can they turn but Jesus?

    Especially since Christianity condemns sex, except on their terms. Abortion? Never. The sluts made their bed, they can lie in it. Contraception? What? And let the sluts off scott free? Education? And let the little ones know that what the minister is doing is wrong? Never.

    Fundamentalist Christianity, whether Catholic or Protestant, whether dominionist, Christianist, or isolationist, has done more to damage the economy of the United States in the last 30 years than any other movement. Without religious conservatives, the Reagan revolution would not have set us on the road to oligarchy. Without religious conservatives, public schools would still be well funded and would actually be teaching reality. Without religious conservatives, respect for the environment could be taught. Without religious conservatives, politics would work. Without religious conservatives, the super rich would not have had the votes to pervert the US political process.

    I really do not care if gods exist. There is no evidence that they have ever interacted with the material world so, even if they do exist, it does not matter. Religion, however, is a cancer. A cancer that requires massive intervention to remove. Right now, we are taking placebos. The pernicious influence of the wealthy, and the religious right that enables them, will get much worse — human rights, education, reproductive rights, freedom of conscience are all under attack. And it has to get a lot worse before a majority of US voters will act to stop it.

  162. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @PF – and Audley, Caine, and Beatrice

    Okay, this is, in large part, my field. I can give information on this if you like, but the short answer here is that there are 2 questions:

    Preamble:Marriage being a fundamental right, and sex discrimination being held unconstitutional when performed by the government,

    1: ***does the government have the power granted to it by the popular will as expressed in the constitution in its current amended form*** to ban same-legal-gender marriage and/or ban recognition of valid same-legal-gender marriages performed in other states?

    2: ***can the government legitimately, constitutionally fail to act*** when faced with older statutes that ban or fail to recognize same-legal-gender marriages?

    If the answer to the second question is no, the answer to the first question is also no.

    The first question could logically be answered no without the second question being answered no, but in the practice of jurisprudence this is entirely unlikely.

    But to put a finer point on this, pf, you are asserting that certain actions are “against the will of most people”.

    If you believe that majority should rule, period, you are defiantly, dead set against the US constitution. Constitutional amendments must be approved by 3/4 the states – not 1/2+1 of the people. During peacetime, the army cannot be housed on the private property of any person without their consent. Period. It doesn’t matter if some gigantic landowner buys up all the reasonably useful real estate in an area. It doesn’t matter if that land grab creates resentment in 95% of the people who then want the army to camp there. It cannot be done. The government does not have the power to do such a thing.

    There is no constitution in the world that is a simple majoritarian constitution – at least of which I’m aware, and I’ve looked at these things a bit.

    In Canada, the federal government has no power to enact rules governing the trade between the provinces. There is no “commerce clause” equivalent to the US constitution. Thus interprovincial trade barriers can be substantial. It doesn’t matter if 99% of Canadians get sick of this. The general populace cannot initiate a constitutional amendment. Nor can they pass a national law by referendum. Nor will lobbying the Senate and House of Commons bear any fruit: any law passed in this area is null and void.

    The result often sucks for Canadians, but – even though businesses would benefit from the change – business in Canada is currently structured to the existing mode of government and those large corporations that would be most affected have a *vested* interest in keeping things the same, while corporations that might benefit have only a *potential* interest. {do you know what “vested” here means? It’s not “big” or “significant” or “important”.]

    This means that political power favors the status quo because money favors the status quo – as it nearly always does. It’s a rare political question where the interests of capital demand change.

    Now, the upshot of all this is more complicated than you expect. I’m not saying that sometimes “right” is majoritarian and the minority blocking the majority’s will is wrong. Though that’s true of course.

    I’m saying that you have majority sentiment for the constitution, but as applied in particular situations, a majority can be against certain actions or results.

    This isn’t just, “Why are we against the majority?”

    The question here is, “What rules and ethics shall we follow when the majority will – as expressed in the constitution – contravenes the majority will as expressed in a statute or even in a mere public opinion poll. ” </bi

    You really don't know what's going on here if you think it's minority against majority. It's majority against majority.

    Now, even if we didn't have a constitution that protected individual rights, I'd be happy to say that X was morally or ethically wrong (or right). Law != justice. But we do have constitutions – probably all of us on pharyngula because the few places that have suspended or inoperant constitutions are pretty difficult places from which to speak as freely as we here on Pharyngula tend to do.

    And there's a long standing procedure for determining what happens when the majority will as expressed in a constitution conflicts with a majority will to do X, specifically, as an act of governance.

    What do you think that is?

  163. pf says

    @Beatrice,

    I’m simply reticent to shove aside the will of the people instead of changing their minds. I would rather not let my way of life depend on if the rest of everyone is not mad enough about my equality to do something to erase it.

    Not to mention that enforcement of impopular law tends to be a bit flexible. Or absent.

    @Audley Darkheart

    It’s actually an interesting point, that low turnout. It DOES really damage legitimacy, and I can’t use expletives angry and intense enough to describe what I feel about voter suppression.

  164. says

    In more Catholic news, nuns are fighting back.

    The American nuns who were harshly condemned by the Vatican in April as failing to uphold Catholic doctrine finally responded on Friday [June 1, 2012] in their own strong terms, saying the Vatican’s assessment was based on “unsubstantiated accusations” and a “flawed process,” and has caused scandal, pain and polarization in the Roman Catholic Church.
    Related

    …The Vatican had announced it would dispatch three American bishops to lead a complete makeover of the sisters’ principal organization, the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, which represents about 80 percent of the nation’s 57,000 nuns.

    Send some men in there to tell those women what to do.

    …the 21 national board members of the group decided they could not accept the Vatican’s verdict, and would send their president and executive director to Rome on June 12 to open a dialogue with Vatican officials….

    Among the accusations the nuns considered “unsubstantiated” was the Vatican’s charge of promoting “radical feminist themes,” Sister Farrell said….

    The Vatican ordered a “doctrinal assessment” of the women’s leadership conference in 2008 after years of concerns about its direction. … The assessment concluded that the leadership conference had hosted speakers who “often contradict or ignore” church teaching; had never revoked a statement from 1977 that questioned the male-only priesthood, and focused their efforts on serving the poor and disenfranchised, while remaining virtually silent on issues the church considers great societal evils: abortion and same-sex marriage….

  165. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Y’know, I just realized, I said this is “pretty much my field”. A couple of points:

    1) I have more than one field and, because one has fewer people in it, I am actually known in that field in a way that I’m not known in the broader field of political and social ethics. I am not saying that i am “an authority”.

    2) I realized that it might not only have been taken as a statement that I am an authority, but an assertion that people here should:

    “RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY”

    In fact, I mostly put that in to warn people that I could get long and technical without trying to hard. If anything is unclear (though I hope it isn’t) I am amenable to questions and I don’t believe that you have to understand jargon to understand anything I’m trying to say. So if I did use jargon, sorry.

    back to bashing arguments…

    and don’t forget: it’s not the majority against the minority. It’s the majority against the majority. That’s the takeaway.

  166. says

    Morales:

    So, I read that the UN’s World Tourism Organisation has appointed Robert Mugabe as a UN “leader of Tourism”.

    If laughing at this makes me a bad person, I don’t want to be a good one.

    And 10 years ago they made Mo’ammar Ghadafi chair of their human rights commission.

    If Idi Amin were alive, he could head up a commission on food. Organic and free-range, of course. He was all about serving his fellow man.

  167. says

    Lynna, that’s pretty rich coming from E.J. Dionne, who was one of those “liberal” xtian menz who concern-trolled for the “right” of Catholic employers to deny women contraception coverage. [in reference to post 189]

    Yes, you’re right. I’ve seen E.J. Dionne’s appearances on The Rachel Maddow show. He used to be more off-track or illogical than he is now. Is it possible that he is slowly getting a clue?

  168. says

    pf:

    I’m simply reticent to shove aside the will of the people instead of changing their minds.

    You do realize that you just invalidated pretty much every Supreme Court decision, right?

    Guys! Loving v Virginia was ethically wrong because it shoved aside the “will of the people” in favor of civil rights! For shame!

  169. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Lynna – that quote you find so clear and likable?

    That’s taken almost verbatim from Scalia in Employment Division v. Smith.

    I hate Scalia’s thought, politics, and mendacity with a burning passion, but that doesn’t mean he is *always* wrong. (I’ve heard him say he likes pizza, after all.)

  170. says

    pf:

    I’m simply reticent to shove aside the will of the people instead of changing their minds.

    Are you even reading the replies you’re getting?

    I would rather not let my way of life depend on if the rest of everyone is not mad enough about my equality to do something to erase it.

    How nice for you. Not so nice for people who lose their kids, or who become incapable of caring for themselves and whose estranged birth families take over their lives and cut off their partners, etc. etc. et fucking cetera.

  171. says

    This bit about the fight nuns are having with the Vatican points out an overlap between the problems the nuns are facing and the lawsuits Catholic bishops have filed against Obama’s health care reform law:

    It [the Vatican] also reprimanded the sisters for making public statements that “disagree with or challenge the bishops, who are the church’s authentic teachers of faith and morals.” Many influential nuns who work in hospitals and health care had supported passage of the Obama administration’s health care overhaul, crossing wires with bishops who were working with Congress to forestall the bill’s passage because of their concerns about abortion.

    With all the problems I’ve had recently with healthcare, any additional regressive, totally lacking in compassion moves from religious groups really ticks me off.

    The misogyny exhibited in “…reprimanded the sisters for making public statements that ‘disagree with or challenge the bishops, who are the church’s authentic teachers of faith and morals,’ is so similar to the obey-the-menz statements made by mormon leaders that is causes involuntary shudders.

    Source.

  172. pf says

    Crip Dyke,

    I’m not a stickler for 50%+1, but seriously, the US constitution is just a larger majority (and some rather complicated conditions) of voters. It’s still voted in. Every single amendment to it was voted in.

    Any future amendment to it will also have to be voted in. And could be, if a sufficiently large majority arises.

  173. Pteryxx says

    happiestsadist: (et al) This is an old and annoying (Flash-based) resource, but it’s the best resource I know on verbal and emotional abuse.

    http://youarenotcrazy.com/

    From “The Quiz” on identifying emotionally abusive tactics:

    Blocking and Diversion

    Through diversion the topic is changed, often turning the tables on the partner so she must defend herself on an unrelated topic. None of the abuser’s diversions answer the partner’s question or concern in a thoughtful and considerate way. The abuser blocks her attempts to gain information or open communications by diverting her from the issue with accusations and irrelevant comments.

    Judging and Criticizing

    The verbal abuser judges his partner and then expresses his judgment in a critical way. Again, he’s in his own reality, and making his partner Wrong gives him a sense of POWER OVER her.

    If she objects, he may tell her that he is just pointing something out to be helpful, but in reality he’s likely expressing his lack of acceptance of her. Most verbal abuse carries a judgmental tone or is disguised as “helpfulness” or “support” when in fact it’s refusal to accept her feelings, thoughts, capabilities or talents. Criticism disguised as help or advice is abusive:

    Undermining

    Sabotage can be executed as a disruption or interruption. For example, the abuser may undermine his partner’s conversations by causing a disturbance like sudden uproarious laughter, turning music up loudly, interrupting and finishing her story, demanding attention, opposing or negating her.

    Threatening

    Verbally abusive threats usually involve the threat of loss or pain, and are often targeted directly at the victims deepest held insecurities, much like abusive jokes.

    Threatening manipulates the partner by bringing up her greatest fears. Threatening is usually a tactic used when an abuser senses he isn’t “winning” an argument and wants to squelch her quickly. Threatening will never resolve an issue or open communications, obviously, so it’s purely an amplified power play to achieve POWER OVER.

    pitbull: A respectful response to my pointing out this behavior, and that it causes me damage, would have been to show willingness to self-examine. Treating it as a personal accusation, followed up by threatening me and Happiestsadist with “No YOU’RE the abusers and I can prove it,” is in fact further abusive behavior.

    I don’t care whether you intend to be abusive or not. Don’t use such tactics.

  174. Pteryxx says

    Aaaand I should have put trigger warnings on my previous post. Symptomatic of triggering myself.

  175. says

    @206

    Lynna – that quote you find so clear and likable? [see post 186]

    That’s taken almost verbatim from Scalia in Employment Division v. Smith.

    I hate Scalia’s thought, politics, and mendacity with a burning passion, but that doesn’t mean he is *always* wrong. (I’ve heard him say he likes pizza, after all.)

    Interesting. No, I didn’t know the quote was taken from an opinion written by Scalia. I generally find Scalia to be sort of like sentient pond scum. And he has been paid by the Koch brothers to speak at secret, right-wing nutters only, events.

  176. pf says

    Ms Daisy Cutter,

    I’m not against treating gays equally. At all. They’re just human beings, and don’t at all deserve the mistreatment they’ve gotten, and in many cases are still getting.

    What I’m arguing is that all rights are at some point voted in, and lacking general support for them makes them vulnerable to being repealed.

    When a broken system which habitually ignores decency happens to do something that’s actually good for you or for basic decency, praising that system is still not logical.

  177. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @pf

    the US constitution is just a larger majority (and some rather complicated conditions) of voters. It’s still voted in. Every single amendment to it was voted in.

    Any future amendment to it will also have to be voted in. And could be, if a sufficiently large majority arises.

    My. Point. Exactly.

    A majority wanted the constitution to limit the ability to pass laws. A law is passed and gets stricken even though it has majority support.

    Is the majority vs. minority or is the majority for the law vs. majority for the constitution?

    Get it now?

  178. Ogvorbis says

    I would rather not let my way of life depend on if the rest of everyone is not mad enough about my equality to do something to erase it.

    Ladies, gentlemen, everyone, I give you a perfect example of privilege. Pf is scared shitless that his privileges, some of which may have the effect of denying to others the same privilege he enjoys — marrying the person xe loves, for example — could somehow be diluted or eliminated by court action. So, pf, if you were not in the privileged majority (and I am smack dab in that myself), if you were a minority, would you still have that same worship of majority rules if it were your human rights being trampled?

  179. Beatrice says

    I’m simply reticent to shove aside the will of the people instead of changing their minds.

    I whine a lot, but I basically live a pretty easy life so I can only imagine how outraged others who face discrimination on mere basis of their sexual orientation or gender expression will be after reading your words. But even I can see a problem with your idea. Changing minds takes time. It’s a nice idea, and we should definitely work hard on doing what you propose, but changing minds can take a long long time. Being all idealistic about future generations is lovely, but it would be even lovelier if some of the change could come in our own lifetimes. Since people are not really asking for much, just having the same rights as everyone else.

  180. says

    pf:

    I would rather not let my way of life depend on if the rest of everyone is not mad enough about my equality to do something to erase it.

    Only a willfully ignorant, under-educated Cupcake would say such a thing. If the cake fits…

    It’s veddy veddy nice you care about your way of life but don’t give a shit about anyone else’s.

    You had best get busy, you have a fucktonne of minds to change.

  181. pf says

    Crip Dyke,

    It’s simply that there’s more people in favor of the constitution as it stands, than there are in favor of a law which conflicts with it.

    If that proportion changes, doesn’t the constitution change?

  182. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    I’m talking about civil rights specifically (as per my original post regarding California). The will of “most of the people” is flat out wrong if they’re oppressing a minority.

    enacting laws against the will of most people is correct, when it protects basic human rights of minorities.

    Because human rights shouldn’t be put up to vote at all.

    Is it ethical to deny a minority group equal rights, even if the majority of the population agrees that they shouldn’t be have those rights? [No.]

    Obviously we’re correct about all this. Unfortunately we might as well be trying to explain strict scrutiny to each and every person in the USA, one at a time.

    It seems the big problem is that most straight people just don’t conceptualize marriage as a right, except in a very abstract way when history is explained to them, because they don’t think of their own marriage as a right. (Heteronormativism being so thick that they just take the legal recognition of their lives for granted.)

    Another way of getting the point across, which relies only on calling attention to ideas that all Americans already have, is to point out that fairness means the government has to treat everyone the same. (This way, intellectually, we’re still talking about equality.) Combine that with pointing out personal, emotionally-gripping accounts about why queer people want to get married: to show commitment to the person they love.

    +++++
    TL;DR: Basically the marriage-as-a-right frame suffers from a bootstrapping problem. People only notice their own rights when they turn up missing. Most straight people won’t understand gay marriage as a right until it’s taught to them as such when they’re growing up and going to public schools, but it won’t be taught as such in public schools until we win legal recognition of that right some other way.

  183. David Marjanović says

    Sister 2 wants me to become a gynecologist. Why? Because of stuff I learned on Pharyngula!!! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

    I don’t know if it’s because Disneyland makes everyone delusional, or if it’s just because we’re behind the Orange Curtain, containing enough of the worst of typical christofascist conservative pablum for the entire state of California, but the city of Anaheim has decided to retrogress and add ‘In God We Trust’ to it’s council chambers. One small step for morons, one giant leap towards theocracy.

    http://www.ocregister.com/articles/motto-356444-city-phrase.html

    Please feel free to bring your most scathing invective to the comments section under the article.

    I used the word “unconstitutional” a lot. Does that count?

    Scary comment system that assumes everyone is on Facebook. Only 901 million people are (so far).

    the Pharyngula Horde Donation Fund

    The Horde Hoard!

    On a global scale, I’m right next to keenacat ;)

    Me too – till Wednesday, and then from July 8th on again.

  184. Beatrice says

    quoting myself:

    work hard on doing what you propose

    I mean, on changing minds. Not changing minds instead of fighting for equality legally, just changing minds as par of the fight.

  185. says

    pf:

    They’re just human beings, and don’t at all deserve the mistreatment they’ve gotten, and in many cases are still getting.

    In many cases? Unholy fucktoy of gods, do you have the slightest idea of how long the fight for gay rights has gone on already? Do you have any fucking idea of the actual harm being caused every. single. hour. of. every. single. day. to GLBT peoples? What in the fuck is wrong with you? Besides having your head so firmly stuck in your privilege.

  186. David Marjanović says

    Oops. Hit Submit way too soon. I’m catching up on the previous subthread and have only covered 26 comments more than yesterday yet.

  187. Rey Fox says

    I assume that accounts for spelling “Fox” with four letters?

    Fox ain’t my real name, as much as I’d prefer it to be.

  188. says

    pf:

    I’m not against treating gays equally.

    Well, if that wording doesn’t set off some alarm bells, nothing will.

    What I’m arguing is that all rights are at some point voted in, and lacking general support for them makes them vulnerable to being repealed.

    No. I pointed to two separate Supreme Court cases dealing with civil rights. Last I checked, SOCTUS was not up for a vote (don’t argue that the Justices are appointed by the president and therefore are democratically elected ‘cos that’s pure bullshit.)

    And laws are only truly vulnerable to being repealed by ballot initiatives. You know, that direct democracy horseshit (which seems to be slowly replacing the court system) that I’ve been arguing against.

    So, was SCOTUS wrong in their decisions regarding Brown v Board of Ed and Loving v Virginia?

  189. pf says

    I’m perfectly open to the idea that I’m wrong here.

    I’ve had this before, so it can happen again.

    I’m going to go think about this a bit, and get back to this part of TET.

    If after reading it again, I sound more stupid than I feel right now, that’s usually a good proof that I was being more stupid than I thought.

  190. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Rey Fox:

    I did know it wasn’t your real name. It turns out some sarcasm slipped into my comment unexpectedly. I will work very, very hard to ensure that no facetiousness, irony, or sarcasm taints my words ever again.

    damn.

  191. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @ Caine:

    Unholy fucktoy of gods, do you have the slightest idea of how long the fight for gay rights has gone on already?

    Was this addressed to me?

  192. says

    life:

    Another way of getting the point across, which relies only on calling attention to ideas that all Americans already have, is to point out that fairness means the government has to treat everyone the same.

    See, I’m not sure that the people that are against marriage equality* have the same concept of “fairness” as we do. It’s “fair” when the government favors them, but for everyone else, it’s special treatment, you know?

    *Or any other gay rights issue. Or civil rights issue. Or whatever. You know what I mean.

  193. says

    Salon has published an essay by a mormon woman whose husband progressed from mormonism to atheism. It’s a good read.

    I wonder if mormons know how totally bonkers they sound when they write stuff like this:

    …When Sean replaced his temple garments — the sacred underwear he’d promised to wear day and night — with boxers, I couldn’t take it anymore. It was too much betrayal. I called up a neighbor with a husband like mine and cried. But instead of empathy, she offered questions that stunned me into silence. Was Sean addicted to pornography? Watching R-rated movies? What sin had brought him to this terrible place?

    My tears stopped. Her questions were so off-base that they seemed absurd. She was sincere, and trying to help, but she believed what the Church teaches — that a man would only leave because he’s disobeying the commandments. She couldn’t understand this was a rational inquiry. She saw everything as the result of sin….

  194. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Pteryxx,

    Guess what?

    the partner … his partner … his partner’s …the partner

    Nobody here is my partner.

    I am not on anyone’s side here.

    I don’t owe any of you “acceptance”.

    pitbull: A respectful response to my pointing out this behavior, and that it causes me damage, would have been to show willingness to self-examine.

    I don’t respect you, Pteryxx.

    Self-examination, it’s already upthread: “The lack of reciprocity is what I mewl about. Some few commenters are fairly accurate in detailing just what a terrible person I am — Stacy’s been near the bullseye lately — and you’ll notice I don’t complain about that.”

    I repeat: I am a bad person. I’m a bitter, selfish and hateful person who is motivated primarily by ressentiment.

    You are more than welcome to dislike me, avoid me, hate me, whatever. I have never expected otherwise. What I insist upon is being judged accurately and fairly. If I am hated, I want to be hated for things that are true.

  195. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @pf:

    It’s simply that there’s more people in favor of the constitution as it stands, than there are in favor of a law which conflicts with it.

    If that proportion changes, doesn’t the constitution change?

    Well, I’m not sure which country you’re in, but you’ve been discussing US law – hrmm.

    I’ll assume “the” here means “US”, whether that’s *your* constitution or not is another question.

    No. The constitution doesn’t change with opinion polls. That’s also in the constitution.

    It’s also not about whether 500 voters supported the constitution and 501 voters supported a given law.

    The point is that framing the issue as “Majority vs. Minority” is not only legally wrong, it buys into the arguments of bigots who think that “rights” are something that only they possess – up to and including the “right” to use the power of government to coerce other people to suffer the consequences that the bigots think should accompany freewill but do not, in fact, derive naturally from a behavior/choice.

    When people say it’s majority vs. minority, **one possible and very productive, very important response** is to ask those persons if they support the constitution. Go Socratic on them. But even if you don’t tackle this as a myth, **reinforcing their bizarre and incorrect view that they are opposed by a minority, instead of being opposed by the majority as expressed through ratification of the constitution** is just plain wrong.

    Guys, don’t do that.

  196. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    See, I’m not sure that the people that are against marriage equality* have the same concept of “fairness” as we do. It’s “fair” when the government favors them, but for everyone else, it’s special treatment, you know?

    Audley, I think you’re exactly right about how they feel-without-thinking about it. That’s pretty much a function of privilege, not even noticing that they’re treated better.

    But there are people who are being convinced, every day, that they were previously wrong about opposing gay marriage. That has to be true to account for the rate at which public opinion is changing; it’s not just a function of bigots dying.

    How do we to those people who are available to have their minds changed next month? Something is working. The research on marriage-as-commitment suggests it might be what’s working.

    So I think direct language of “if the government allows straight people show their commitment to the ones they love by getting married, then to be fair the government has to allow gay people to their commitment to the ones they love by getting married” is likely to be one of the least-ineffective approaches.

  197. Beatrice says

    …When Sean replaced his temple garments — the sacred underwear he’d promised to wear day and night — with boxers, I couldn’t take it anymore.

    I just wanted to repeat this in case someone didn’t notice.

    *choking with laughter*

  198. says

    pf:

    I’m not against treating gays equally. At all.

    Uh-huh. So long as your un-Constitutional fetish for “the will of the people” comes first, I suppose. Again, did you even read the legal analyses offered to you, demonstrating that your concern is a red herring?

    I’m with Caine: You have no idea how offensively oblivious your comments have been on this issue. I hope that when you return to TET you can see it.

  199. says

    life:

    That has to be true to account for the rate at which public opinion is changing; it’s not just a function of bigots dying.

    No, but as more and more young people mature and become voters*, the opinion will continue to swing towards marriage equality, don’t you think? I’m not saying it’s the only cause, but it’s gotta help bump those poll numbers to the left.

    *Oh lord, that made me sound like my mom.

    So I think direct language of “if the government allows straight people show their commitment to the ones they love by getting married, then to be fair the government has to allow gay people to their commitment to the ones they love by getting married” is likely to be one of the least-ineffective approaches.

    Okay, yeah I can definitely see that.

    I think part of my problem is that it’s easy to look at this issue in black and white terms: either you’re a champion for equal rights OR your a huge flaming bigot. I haven’t accounted for straight up ignorance of a lot of people.

  200. says

    Chris Hedges, who is a fool on matters of atheism and the harm of religion per se but who does very good reporting on other political issues, has an Alternet article up on how the fundie crusade against GLBT people is “far scarier than you think.”

    Core to the article is an indictment of affluent liberals, especially GLB ones (many fewer are T), who sequester themselves in relatively progressive communities and disregard issues of class and poverty. Into the leadership void steps the right wing, which redirects the rage of poor straight people against the GLBT, much in the same way it does that of poor white people against people of color.

    Quoting Mel White:

    Progressives ought to move out of New York immediately. Gay people should evacuate the major cities to see what life is like for gays in rural areas. The urban centers of the gay community are too isolated from wider reality. Many in these [urban] communities do not seem to care about reality. Gay people can survive, unfortunately, without paying attention to reality, especially if we’re white and male. If you’re white and male you often can pass.

    I don’t think White’s solution is realistic, obviously. OTOH, he and Hedges are absolutely right that too many progressives have a big fucking blind spot when it comes to issues of class and poverty.

  201. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Caine:

    If being a “Right Reverend Feminist” is to be Unholy, as I’m often told I am, you can see my confusion.

    Shorter me: Joke!

  202. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    No, but as more and more young people mature and become voters*, the opinion will continue to swing towards marriage equality, don’t you think?

    Oh yes, definitely. That’s a big factor. I’m just trying to think of how we can speed it up even more than the demographics.

  203. says

    Here’s how you do business if you are a religious nutter of a CEO. You get all the employees together, then you pray with them, then you insult them, then you fire 25 of them.

    “We let 25 go yesterday — hated it,” said Ryan Tate, head of Tate Publishing.
    During the staff meeting, which was recorded, Tate sprinkled biblical references with the stern announcement….

    http://newsok.com/oklahoma-ceo-prays-with-insults-then-fires-employees/article/3680483/?page=1

    Tate Publishing describes itself as “Christian-based, family-owned, mainline publishing organization with a mission to discover and market unknown authors.” Ryan Tate said the company employs about 200 people.

    The video at the link above includes audio from the meeting in which “Heavenly Father” is much invoked. Also Jesus.

  204. says

    Hi there
    Bit threadrupt. We had a nice but exhausting day doing the usual chores, shopping for shoes for #1 (I hate it even more than for me. They mustn’t be too “boyish” and, of course, the girl-ones emphasize pretty over sensible.) and granny-sitting (including a barbecue. I think my dad’s the only person to stock his barbecue supplies with fireproof wood).

    Also:
    Not our cat
    Still not our cat
    No, kid, really not our cat

    Mattir
    I’m sorry about Shadow

    Weed Monkey
    No, nothing funny about Tanja, thankfully.

  205. Sili says

    Fuckity fuck. I hate being the one who has to make the life and death decisions

    What? I thought we scientist-atheists were supposed to all want to play God?

    Seriously, I’m sorry you have to do this. I know the day will come when my adopted, arthritic stray will have to go the same way. I wish I could have done it before I got attached to him.

  206. 'Tis Himself says

    I repeat: I am a bad person. I’m a bitter, selfish and hateful person who is motivated primarily by ressentiment.

    I’m not going to argue with this.

  207. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    And yes, Pteryxx, you are being emotionally manipulative toward me, by suggesting that I should treat you in ways that you’d expect to be treated by a romantic partner.

    I am not in any kind of intimate relationship with anyone here. Let alone you, Pteryxx; I am not even your friend, and I have no desire to be.

    It’s not my responsibility to be thoughtful to you.

    It’s not my responsibility to be considerate to you.

    It’s not my responsibility to give information to you.

    It’s not my responsibility to open communications with you.

    It’s not my responsibility to refrain from judging you.

    Et cetera, et cetera. Go hang out at a conservative website and see how “open” you feel like being, even if no one there tells lies about you. Now imagine how accepting and considerate you feel like being to people who just make shit up and then won’t even admit that they misspoke.

    Look at what you quoted; it’s meaningful only because it applies to intimate relationships where one person can become dependent upon the other:

    The verbal abuser judges his partner and then expresses his judgment in a critical way. Again, he’s in his own reality, and making his partner Wrong gives him a sense of POWER OVER her.

    If she objects, he may tell her that he is just pointing something out to be helpful, but in reality he’s likely expressing his lack of acceptance of her. Most verbal abuse carries a judgmental tone or is disguised as “helpfulness” or “support” when in fact it’s refusal to accept her feelings, thoughts, capabilities or talents. Criticism disguised as help or advice is abusive

    The problem in that scenario is that intimate relationships are implicitly about acceptance. But we don’t have to accept everyone as they are. We don’t have to accept our political opponents as they are. We don’t have to accept some stranger on the internet’s capabilities or talents — we don’t have to give one single shit about them.

    You are insisting upon way, way more from me than you are entitled to. I don’t even know you.

  208. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    I’m not going to argue with this.

    Excellent, ‘Tis, I’m glad we’re on the same page about that. Maybe we can find even more consensus if you’d demonstrate a minimal level of honesty and admit that you did not have evidence to support your opinion?

  209. pf says

    Okay, I’m going to take a guess here at what was wrongest about what I said:

    The gains made in LGBT rights are very fragile, and what I said sounds a lot like the people who want to tear it all back down again.

    This thing about referenda is usually codespeak much like “states rights” is. I did not know this.

    Or was there an even wronger thing in what I said?

  210. NuMad says

    ॐ,

    Also the “feminists who don’t call themselves equity-feminists don’t accept evolutionary psychology” thing is misleading.

    I’d even say that in that sense it’s not about “gender feminists” rejecting evo-psych to an indefinite degree, so much as it is about them not totally rejecting competing explanations to evo-psych.

  211. says

    pf:

    The gains made in LGBT rights are very fragile, and what I said sounds a lot like the people who want to tear it all back down again.

    That’s part of it. I’m in the middle of something right (stuff on stove), so I’ll say this much for now – the way you spoke about equal rights for gays, you sounded like GLBT peoples are a separate and lesser species.

    Plus, there’s that whole business about “hey, it’s better to change minds, man.” Sure, that’s good, but it’s not the right answer here nor is it something we have the leisure time to do. You’re also flat out ignoring how people work. That’s a problem.

  212. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @pf
    Good to see you back and reading and thinking and trying.

    I’m not going to contest the things you’re learning, but I want to go back to a major point:

    Laws are not overturned because the minority wants them to be. Laws are overturned because the majority says that they must be under certain circumstances.

    Time goes on, people learn things, assumptions are overturned and, presto!, the false assumptions that made people think X wouldn’t be covered under constitutional provision Y fall away.

    If we agree in our constitution that no one is allowed to eat ducks with green pigment in their feathers, then later find out that a black-feathered duck is black feathered by virtue of having multiple pigments, including green ones, then we have a valid constitutional provision with an unintended effect, but clearly the provision is valid and clearly it applies to said ducks.

    If such a duck sues not to be eaten under a law purporting to make it legal to eat said ducks despite the constitutional prohibition

    ***what is at issue here is not the duck’s opinion of what’s right with the majority’s opinion of what’s right***

    What is at issue here is the majority’s prohibition against duck-with-green-pigment eating with the majority’s authorization of duck-with-green-pigment eating.

    When you say that it’s less valid to strike the law down than it is to leave it standing because it’s better to follow the will of more people than the will of fewer people,

    You are dramatically misrepresenting what is actually happening.

    Also, you accused people here of being hypocritical [IIRC] for not supporting the will of the people because in other cases people have made the argument that the people have not agreed.

    But this isn’t that case. It’s not that the people agreed or disagreed. It’s that the people did both, both times as a majority, neither majority less legit than the other.

    Your argument depends on misrepresenting facts and supports the position of bigots who would like us to ignore those facts.
    =================

    Then there is the whole moral/ethical argument which is separate from the legal argument in which someone can take one position morally and another legally, “I agree this is law, but it’s bad law and should never have been put up for a vote” is a perfectly coherent position.

    It’s more legal positivist than natural law, but while I think we have very few commenters of the natural law type and even fewer pure legal positivists here, thinking about the distinctions drawn by these schools of thought will help you get this distinction clear.

    Feel free to google both terms.

  213. says

    pf:

    The gains made in LGBT rights are very fragile, and what I said sounds a lot like the people who want to tear it all back down again.

    Uh, no. It’s exactly what the other side says, word for word. Why in the world do you think they want these types of ballot initiatives? It’s because they know they can win and appeal to your average dumbass’s sense of democratic fairness.

    Or was there an even wronger thing in what I said?

    Repeat after me (since you’ve missed it every other time someone has pointed it out) a minority’s civil rights should not be left up to the whims of the voters. That is fundamentally wrong, unfair, and oppressive.

    Waiting until the majority “gets it” will take too long and isn’t an effective agent of change. I once again point you to Brown v Board of Ed and Loving v Virginia and ask you if you think that SCOTUS was wrong to rule in the favor of equal rights.

    You’ve got your head shoved so far up your privilegehole that I’d be surprised if you can see you ass.

  214. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    I like Mists of Down Below! And that’s not even my type of music (generally when I hear anything country-sounding I turn it off going “I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THAT FOR A LIFETIME”), so it must be good.

  215. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Thanks, Caine.

    I was more concerned with the dishonesty of the majority/minority frame (not that I’m assuming the dishonesty is intentional, pf, just that the frame is false), but what you bring up is very important… especially the last bit.

    Is it really better to change minds?

    If, in fact, such discrimination is unconstitutional…
    If, in fact, the arguments that such discrimination is constitutional depend on false assumptions that were not previously easily shown to be false but are now much more easily contested…
    If, in fact, the unconstitutional discrimination is harming, well, anyone…

    then arguing that we should educate and wait until we change the statute is arguing that the constitution is irrelevant, along with all its so-called protections.

    It is also arguing that those suffering harm should continue to suffer it – even when the actions causing such are illegal – because

    1) education is better than, um, something
    2) statutes rule constitutions, not the other way around,
    3) fee-fees
    4) education never happens as a result of court cases where good arguments are put together, tested against the constitution, and then a neutral arbiter writes down a summary of the evidence, how it applies to the law, and justifies a decision on those grounds. yeah. None of that could be useful in educating people, nor will anyone be swayed by the fact that if some judges looked seriously at it and found it unconstitutional that there must be a reasonable argument that the statute was in some way violative of the norms of the nation whose constitution it violated. That would never cause critical thinking in anyone, right?*

    Winning a court case is part of the process of education. Part of the “people” is (I know it is difficult to admit) that group of predatory mammals we call “lawyers”.

    And refusing to submit a court case to prevent harm that is also illegal under the constitution is moral how?

    I think that the arguments are wrong on legal grounds (the function of the constitution and its legitimacy as a majoritarian document), wrong on psychological grounds (how education works), wrong on practical grounds (how people actually change their minds), and wrong on moral grounds (who should suffer what and when for the benefit of whom).

    *I use sarcasm in arguments, but it is not intended to be hostile to you, pf.

  216. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    If we agree in our constitution that no one is allowed to eat ducks with green pigment in their feathers, then later find out that a black-feathered duck is black feathered by virtue of having multiple pigments, including green ones, then we have a valid constitutional provision with an unintended effect, but clearly the provision is valid and clearly it applies to said ducks.

    If such a duck sues not to be eaten under a law purporting to make it legal to eat said ducks despite the constitutional prohibition

    Goddamnit, now I’m hungry. For duck.

  217. says

    Back for a minute. Also, pf, you prefer to wait for GLBT peoples to be accorded full human status, complete with the rights that go along with that, until most people think that’s a good thing to do.

    Okay, so how long are we supposed to wait? Since Stonewall, we’ve been waiting one helluva long time already. Put a date on it, tell us just how long it’s going to take and just how long we get to continue being fucked over.

  218. pf says

    Crip Dyke,

    That’s definitely something I’ve seen happen before. The problem is that some things sound reasonable, while they’re not in some very sneaky ways.

    But see, I learned something here, and that means I won’t be making that argument anymore, regardless of if I agree with it or not. It’s part of creating a hostile environment, using unwitting accomplices.

    That’s probably one of the most valuable things I get here. Many things are commonly said which only sound hostile to some people, but unless you ARE those people, you don’t notice and help keep your fellow human beings down without actively wanting to.

    You point these out. Not necessarily gently, but casual cruelty is worse than cruelty with intent. Hurting people without meaning to is something I always try to stop doing as soon as I notice, but seriously, I don’t blame you for opening fire. If I’m operating on force of habit, why can’t you?

    I’m really sorry I walked over everyone’s triggers.

  219. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    Pf, lol, I’ve been here for… ever… and I still mess up blockquote :D

  220. RahXephon, Bouncer of the De Facto Feminist Club says

    @SGBM

    I repeat: I am a bad person. I’m a bitter, selfish and hateful person who is motivated primarily by ressentiment.

    Maybe you wouldn’t be so bitter and hateful if you didn’t hang on to things so voraciously? I mean shit, you’ve got multiple people in here actively ignoring you on a topic that you yourself have said multiple times was an instance of someone “misspeaking”. With that level of tenacity, crocodile jaws could take lessons.

    People misread me, take me out of context, and are just plain fucking oblivious to what I actually write all the damn time. If I went after each one of them with the kind of effort you commit, I think my brain would liquefy, run down my spinal column, and puddle in my butt.

  221. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    I note that privilege-denying JT has multiplied.

  222. RahXephon, Bouncer of the De Facto Feminist Club says

    @TLC

    I think it’s time for a Tumblah!

  223. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Maybe you wouldn’t be so bitter and hateful if you didn’t hang on to things so voraciously? I mean shit, you’ve got multiple people in here actively ignoring you on a topic that you yourself have said multiple times was an instance of someone “misspeaking”. With that level of tenacity, crocodile jaws could take lessons.

    People misread me, take me out of context, and are just plain fucking oblivious to what I actually write all the damn time. If I went after each one of them with the kind of effort you commit, I think my brain would liquefy, run down my spinal column, and puddle in my butt.

    I didn’t wanna jump in, but, This.

    There’s a reason I find just calling him ‘Pitbull’ fits.

  224. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @pf –

    though I hate those arguments, I do welcome the opportunity to have these discussions. And I hope that I properly aimed my rhetoric at the arguments and not your person, but yeah, although the argument is where I point my aim, it can be hard in every difficult moment to be fussed about hurting someone’s feelings when the arguments are flying.

  225. says

    pf:

    I’m really sorry I walked over everyone’s triggers.

    :bangs head gently on desk: Look, this is not about tromping on people or triggering them. This is about you being blinded by your own privilege, not getting the bloody point, not changing your mind to any degree and outright refusing to take your blinders off.

    You’re frustrating, pf. Would you please try to actually address the things we’re bringing up? Also, here’s a bit of reading about privilege (I don’t know if you’re male, however, it’s still good reading if you aren’t):

    https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/

    http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/

  226. says

    I just don’t like this at all. A giant NSA spying center (they call it a Data Center) is being built in Utah. It will be next door to a thriving (read “growing) mormon polygamist colony. I can’t help thinking that this is going to turn out badly. For one thing, it prompts scenarios for very bad B movie scripts. I’m trying not to go there, but I expect B-grade nightmares this evening.
    Excerpts from Wired magazine coverage:

    …Today Bluffdale [Utah] is home to one of the nation’s largest sects of polygamists, the Apostolic United Brethren, with upwards of 9,000 members. The brethren’s complex includes a chapel, a school, a sports field, and an archive. Membership has doubled since 1978—and the number of plural marriages has tripled—so the sect has recently been looking for ways to purchase more land and expand throughout the town.

    But new pioneers have quietly begun moving into the area, secretive outsiders who say little and keep to themselves. Like the pious polygamists, they are focused on deciphering cryptic messages that only they have the power to understand. Just off Beef Hollow Road, less than a mile from brethren headquarters, thousands of hard-hatted construction workers in sweat-soaked T-shirts are laying the groundwork for the newcomers’ own temple and archive, a massive complex so large that it necessitated expanding the town’s boundaries. Once built, it will be more than five times the size of the US Capitol….

    Let’s see, so far we have Bibles, Books of Mormon and Big Brother in Bluffdale.

    The NSA has become the largest, most covert, and potentially most intrusive intelligence agency ever.

    Under construction by contractors with top-secret clearances, the blandly named Utah Data Center is being built for the National Security Agency. A project of immense secrecy, it is the final piece in a complex puzzle assembled over the past decade. Its purpose: to intercept, decipher, analyze, and store vast swaths of the world’s communications as they zap down from satellites and zip through the underground and undersea cables of international, foreign, and domestic networks. The heavily fortified $2 billion center should be up and running in September 2013. Flowing through its servers and routers and stored in near-bottomless databases will be all forms of communication, including the complete contents of private emails, cell phone calls, and Google searches, as well as all sorts of personal data trails—parking receipts, travel itineraries, bookstore purchases, and other digital “pocket litter.” It is, in some measure, the realization of the “total information awareness” program created during the first term of the Bush administration—an effort that was killed by Congress in 2003 after it caused an outcry over its potential for invading Americans’ privacy….

    http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/1

    Orrin Hatch likes the project.

    Then the reporters turned to Hatch, who proudly described the center as “a great tribute to Utah,” then added, “I can’t tell you a lot about what they’re going to be doing, because it’s highly classified.”

    Do we trust these guys?

    The contractors like it. Orrin Hatch played a part in seeing that most of the construction crews are headed by mormons, like Big-D Construction. http://www.big-d.com/bigd_pr_brighamcityexteriorwalls.php

    The mormon dudes are building for the spy dudes a fence that will stop a 15,000-pound vehicle traveling 50 miles per hour, plus a lot of armageddon-ready stuff like their own massive water and energy supplies. Inside the fence line will be millions of square feet of data processing equipment, described as a “Global Information Grid, to handle yottabytes (10 to the 24th power bytes) of data. (A yottabyte is a septillion bytes—so large that no one has yet coined a term for the next higher magnitude.)”

    To capture satellite communications in and out of the US, the agency also monitors AT&T’s powerful earth stations, satellite receivers in locations that include Roaring Creek and Salt Creek. Tucked away on a back road in rural Catawissa, Pennsylvania, Roaring Creek’s three 105-foot dishes handle much of the country’s communications to and from Europe and the Middle East. And on an isolated stretch of land in remote Arbuckle, California, three similar dishes at the company’s Salt Creek station service the Pacific Rim and Asia.

  227. RahXephon, Bouncer of the De Facto Feminist Club says

    @Audley

    I’m a newly minted vegetarian, but I liked duck the few times I’ve had it.

    I would like to say, just generally, that I’m not an “ethical” vegetarian, and I’m not even really doing it for health reasons. I grew up and live in the South-ish area (I took a senior level geography class as part of my major program about North American geography, and even then what region Oklahoma is in seems to depend on who you ask and what book you look in) and we eat meat ALL THE TIME. I think people would have bacon as a midnight snack if it were more practical.

    Anyway, point being is that I’ve eaten lots and lots of meat, and I’m tired of it. Not eating meat is simply a personal preference for me now, like people who don’t like broccoli.

    I suppose the ethical bits and the health bennies are nice consequences but I guess the thing I’m getting at is that I’m not preachy. :P

  228. Beatrice says

    Crip Dyke,

    Thanks for detailed explanations, pf isn’t the only one benefiting. I realize I have been framing the problem as majority vs. minority in my mind, thinking more about the ethics of human rights and equality than about their protection by the constitution. I’ll take more care with that in the future, so as not to unnecessarily give ground to those opposing equality.

  229. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Rahxephon: That’s nice, but as far as I’m concerned no one has to justify their diet or why or why not they do or do not eat certain things.

    Some carnivores and omnivores can be preachy as hell to vegetarians in their own way.

  230. RahXephon, Bouncer of the De Facto Feminist Club says

    That’s nice, but as far as I’m concerned no one has to justify their diet or why or why not they do or do not eat certain things.

    Oh, I totally agree. I just wanted to forestall the possible-and-very-tedious discussion about why I decide to eat the way I do.

    It may also have to do with the fact that I’m fat and food policing is something I expect to happen regardless. “Do you think you need that?” may as well be ringing in my ears every day.

  231. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Rahxephon: Yeah, food policing is something I don’t like. We’re all gonna die someday, might as well eat and live in whatever way makes us happiest while we’re here, whatever that may mean to you.

  232. RahXephon, Bouncer of the De Facto Feminist Club says

    RahXephon,
    Hey, whatever floats your goat. :D

    I think if a goat floats, that means it’s a witch.

    And speaking of witches, wasn’t “Goats Float” that Sandra Bullock movie?

  233. pf says

    @275, Caine

    I need to re-asses the whole thing I was saying, first.

    I mean, now that I know it’s codespeak, it might just be 100% worthless dross without any redeeming factors, but right now I might still say something defending the bad parts, regardless of whether there is any good in it.

    I’m not ignoring you, I’m just slow.

    I’m sorry if that’s frustrating, but I can’t do hairpin turns very well.

  234. Beatrice says

    “Do you think you need that?” may as well be ringing in my ears every day.

    My mom used to ask “Are you going to eat that __________ ?” and when after a while I started replying with something sarcastic like “No, I just took that slice of bread and topped it with cheese to look at it” she acted all insulted.

    Took me years to convince her that her comments were judgmental and bothering me. And I wasn’t even overweight, she was just obsessed with weight because she had been overweight at my age. She hadn’t really stopped me from eating, but I always felt a mix of guilt and annoyance (and then angry at myself for feeling guilty) when she would look at me askance and asked if I were going to eat that as if it was my sixth plate and not the second.

  235. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    Maybe you wouldn’t be so bitter and hateful if you didn’t hang on to things so voraciously?

    [Warning! What I am about to say doesn't necessarily apply to the context in which RahXephon said this. I was just thinking about this the other day, and what RahXephon said reminded me of it.]

    It can be really hard not to hold on to things, to the point that it’s almost pointless to advise (nothing against you, RX, just… I used to get this advice kinda a lot). In my case, at least, it would almost be more useful to advise me not to be so angry all the time. I don’t know how common this is at all, but holding on to things isn’t the active, energy-draining behavior for me, letting go of them is. It takes a major act of will and effort to drop something.

    What I do, which I mentally call “circling,” is replay things over and over in detail (I have an upsettingly good and detailed memory) and interpret them over and over until I have digested them, which sometimes takes years. (This is, I think, related to how I listen to the same song over and over for hours or days and how I’ve watched the entirety of Buffy seriously like twenty times now.)

    And yeah – it lends itself to bitterness and hatefulness, and yeah, it’s often unhelpful, but I only recently figured out how to do things to derail it, and most of the time they don’t work. (I’ve learned that certain thoughts are always going to lead me into a spiral of unhelpful obsessing, and I give myself a sensory or physical jolt if I notice those coming up.) If the thing in question is upsetting enough, though, or if I’m under enough stress, I seriously can do virtually nothing but wait. The “bright” side is that when combined with my anxiety and the kinds of voices I have in my brain, I usually can keep it to myself, because I usually blame myself. The most destructive part of it seems to be when the thing in question is either completely inconsequential but just got stuck in my brain somehow, or when it is impossible to fully digest.

  236. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    RahXephon and Coyote,

    Your fuckbrained notions of why I’m bitter are pretty presumptuous.

    Take your pop psychology and use it to glaze a pair of porcupines.

  237. says

    RahXephon:

    “Do you think you need that?” may as well be ringing in my ears every day.

    Ugh. I hear ya and that sucks.

    Trust me, food policing has recently reached a crescendo for me and I’m feeling all punchy about it.

    … wasn’t “Goats Float” that Sandra Bullock movie?

    This summer, prepare yourself for an epic goat-themed romance starring Sandra Bullock, Matthew McConoughey and the ship from Speed 2: Speed Harder.

    Goats Float, only in theaters July 4th.

  238. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    Trust me, food policing has recently reached a crescendo for me and I’m feeling all punchy about it.

    Eesh, I can only imagine how bad it must be for you right now, since all of a sudden everything a pregnant woman does is worthy of criticism. I’m sorry.

  239. 'Tis Himself says

    Maybe we can find even more consensus if you’d demonstrate a minimal level of honesty and admit that you did not have evidence to support your opinion?

    Since you’re an asshole, while I might (and that’s MIGHT) be wrong about a detail, my general impression that you get your jollies from berating people who transgress your personal ideals of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. still stands.

    I’ll admit to lack of evidence when you apologize to me for claiming that I was supporting Islamophobes by drawing Mohammed on a particular day. Deal?

  240. says

    In my case, at least, it would almost be more useful to advise me not to be so angry all the time. I don’t know how common this is at all, but holding on to things isn’t the active, energy-draining behavior for me, letting go of them is. It takes a major act of will and effort to drop something.

    ditto.

    except that in the case of people’s misinterpretations/lies/other forms of being WOTI, after a week or two the relevance of the people fades, and the urge to convince/correct them disappears. But I still mull over and get frustrated at the actual wrongness in my mind.

    Doesn’t work, of course, for communities where I’m perforce surrounded by the same people for extended periods of time, so if I’m misrepresented somehow I also don’t let go (or, I let go of the community altogether for as long as it takes for the misrepresentation to fad in my head; which can be weeks, or even months. or, permanently; which has happened in the past)

  241. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Beatrice & pf:

    To the extent that I’m helping, I’m quite glad. You’re welcome/thanks back.

    @pf –
    I think Caine’s right that the point isn’t our triggers, it’s the broader effects of the words. But I also appreciate what I think you’re trying to say, which might be something like, “There’s broader hurt caused by these words about which I’m learning, but I also wish to apologize for all the immediate hurt caused just by reading yet another person use arguments that call for toleration of suffering on behalf of a majority’s whim.”

    If being here is hard, it gets easier. Not only because we learn about issues, but also because we learn about this context.

    Also, I appreciate every single instance of hearing someone say that they were wrong or are reconsidering something. We all have to get really good at this skill if we’re going to make a better world since none of us knows nearly enough to pick all the right paths on hir own.

  242. Beatrice says

    What I do, which I mentally call “circling,” is replay things over and over in detail (I have an upsettingly good and detailed memory) and interpret them over and over until I have digested them, which sometimes takes years.

    This resonates with me sooo much.
    Do you do this only when it comes to other people’s words/actions or also your own?
    Example : I met a friend for coffee a couple of days ago and said something that I later realized could be interpreted as insulting. I didn’t mean it like that (I know, intent isn’t magic) and I think that was obvious from the following conversation, but I can’t stop thinking about it. I’ve been turning that whole part of the conversation in my mind for the last three days, I can get lost in thoughts about it without even realizing and it will last for who knows how long. Probably until I start obsessing with something else.

  243. says

    RahXephon:

    “Do you think you need that?” may as well be ringing in my ears every day.

    I got a different kind of policing. “Don’t you think you should eat something? You should eat. You need to eat something. Eat! Of course you have to eat breakfast, what’s wrong with you? You’re going to the doctor!”

    Eeeesh. I have *never* been able to eat breakfast (unless I’ve been up for hours on end) and when I was forced to as a child, it was instant puke. Still is. I don’t even want to talk food when I’m first up and about.

    I’ve never had a weight problem either way, however, I don’t eat a lot and I eat when I’m hungry, which is not three times a day.

    I loathe food policing.

  244. says

    I’ll admit to lack of evidence when you apologize to me for claiming that I was supporting Islamophobes by drawing Mohammed on a particular day.

    you’ll admit to being wrong when SG apologizes for being correct?

    very rational of you.

  245. RahXephon, Bouncer of the De Facto Feminist Club says

    Your fuckbrained notions of why I’m bitter are pretty presumptuous.

    Take your pop psychology and use it to glaze a pair of porcupines.

    SGBM, you’re honestly a mystery to me. Not a fun mystery, like Scooby Doo, just a tedious one. You admit you’re an asshole, but you expect good treatment from others. You’re a totalitarian, but you want people to respect your boundaries. You get to say what you want, but if anyone else “misspeaks”, you gnaw at them until they give in and apologize, and even then you don’t accept it because they didn’t kiss your ass to your specifications.

    You’re the presumptuous one, and I can’t glaze shit with you hoarding all the porcupines like that.

  246. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Since you’re an asshole, while I might (and that’s MIGHT) be wrong about a detail,

    This is further evidence that you’re a fucking liar, ‘Tis.

    You can see for yourself that I did not claim what you asserted regarding Louis’s joke. It is not in question. It was explained to you by numerous neutral parties.

    If your willingness to be honest is contingent upon anything but looking at the evidence, then you are simply a dishonest person.

    I’ll admit to lack of evidence when you apologize to me for claiming that I was supporting Islamophobes by drawing Mohammed on a particular day. Deal?

    You can read the thread for yourself. Here’s a summary.

  247. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    RahXephon and Coyote,

    Your fuckbrained notions of why I’m bitter are pretty presumptuous.

    Take your pop psychology and use it to glaze a pair of porcupines.

    I was only intending to observe that you are incredibly tenacious and refuse to let things go sometimes. I didn’t intend to actually speculate on ‘why’, though I can see how blockquoting Rahxephon’s statement like I did could look like I was.

  248. says

    Cipher:

    What I do, which I mentally call “circling,” is replay things over and over in detail (I have an upsettingly good and detailed memory) and interpret them over and over until I have digested them

    I do this too. I am able to keep it to myself, though, at least most of the time. I don’t follow people about harassing them.

  249. says

    ditto.

    to put it more succinctly, misrepresentations/miscommunications/general WOTI and WIMS, are causing me physical discomfort, so I tend to try to fix them. And the feeling that I should (have) correct(ed) such errors doesn’t go away, but the importance of setting the people involved straight and maybe to get them to see their mistake tends to fade when I don’t have to be around those people (geographically or internet-wise).

  250. says

    but you expect good treatment from others

    not “good”. “fair”

    You get to say what you want, but if anyone else “misspeaks”, you gnaw at them until they give in and apologize

    I’m sorry, but what does “get to say what you want” even mean? I’ve not seen SG be resentful or aggressive when having factual mistakes pointed out to him.

    also, he’s repeatedly said he doesn’t want apologies but acknowledgments of mistakes/misreprestentations. whether people feel sorry about making the mistakes isn’t really relevant.

    also, what does “give in” mean? acknowledging a mistake should hardly be considered “giving in”, it’s not a fight with winners and losers after all.

    [/more nitpicking]

  251. says

    I would like to say, just generally, that I’m not an “ethical” vegetarian…

    This sounded to me like the prelude to a confession or somethin’:

    ‘I’m an unethical vegetarian. Sure, I eat vegetables. But I like to torture them first.’

    … or…

    ‘I’m an unethical vegetarian. I only eat produce stolen from subsistence farmers.’

    … or I guess the ‘unethical’ part doesn’t technically have to have anything to do with vegetarianism:

    ‘I’m an unethical vegetarian. I don’t eat meat, but I do run phishing scams.’

    Anyway, also, re:

    I like Mists of Down Below! And that’s not even my type of music (generally when I hear anything country-sounding I turn it off going “I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THAT FOR A LIFETIME”), so it must be good.

    Hee hee. Glad you liked it, but seriously:

    That was (hell, mostly still is) my country thing, too. Grew up in an area where it was just everywhere. My parents didn’t listen to it, but just about everyone else did, and you couldn’t get away from it. Got so I’d start to twitch slightly just seeing anyone carrying a guitar and wearing a cowboy hat, and fuck but did I get to hate that nasally standard country delivery thing.

    But some years ago I started noticing I could tolerate certain alt-country type things, certain sorta roots-’n’-weirdness things, provided it had enough texture.

    So, also good: the Duhks’ Four Blue Walls and Ben Weaver’s Grieve All You Want. And representing as just generally awesome with everything they do, there’s The Silver Hearts (their Bad Road is here). They’re this crazy big band thing I’ve mentioned here previously–sousaphone and theremin do work their way into their live act, go fig.

  252. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    You admit you’re an asshole, but you expect good treatment from others.

    Not true. I expect honest treatment from a group of people who profess to care about evidence and honesty.

    I don’t care about “good” treatment. You can call me a worthless piece of shit and tell me to die in a fire. It’s fine.

    You’re a totalitarian, but you want people to respect your boundaries.

    Specifically what this means is that I advocate the violent suppression of priests. And that’s just self-defense.

    I maintain the right to delineate what I am willing to do for others upon their request, and I understand that others can do the same.

    There is no contradiction here, unless you are a member of the clergy.

    You get to say what you want, but if anyone else “misspeaks”

    Everybody gets to say what they want. If I misspeak you can call me on it.

    you gnaw at them until they give in and apologize, and even then you don’t accept it because they didn’t kiss your ass to your specifications.

    Not true. I never asked for an apology from Caine or ‘Tis Himself. What I’m insisting upon is an admission of error.

    An admission of error accompanied by telling me to go play in traffic would be awesome.

    You’re the presumptuous one,

    You are unaware that it’s presumptuous for you to assert that an outward behavior is itself the cause of that same behavior? Heh.

  253. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Ah, no problem, Coyote. I’ll keep that porcupine for myself, then.

  254. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    I do this too. I am able to keep it to myself, though, at least most of the time. I don’t follow people about harassing them.

    Yeah. I do sometimes get the urge, though… One of my fears is that if I weren’t quite as anxious as I am, I would actually have a much harder time keeping that under control? But the Plan is to work on both things simultaneously :)

    to put it more succinctly, misrepresentations/miscommunications/general WOTI and WIMS, are causing me physical discomfort, so I tend to try to fix them. And the feeling that I should (have) correct(ed) such errors doesn’t go away, but the importance of setting the people involved straight and maybe to get them to see their mistake tends to fade when I don’t have to be around those people (geographically or internet-wise).

    Me too! I grok that.

    Do you do this only when it comes to other people’s words/actions or also your own?
    Example : I met a friend for coffee a couple of days ago and said something that I later realized could be interpreted as insulting. I didn’t mean it like that (I know, intent isn’t magic) and I think that was obvious from the following conversation, but I can’t stop thinking about it. I’ve been turning that whole part of the conversation in my mind for the last three days, I can get lost in thoughts about it without even realizing and it will last for who knows how long. Probably until I start obsessing with something else.

    SO much yes. I actually do it a lot worse with my own behavior, especially when (and this part I know is pretty common) I’m ashamed of it, and that’s often when I end up stuck obsessing about something that’s inconsequential. For instance: I remember that four years ago, I annoyed my friend to such an extent that he left an event I was at in anger, because I didn’t notice that he was severely stressed out. I also remember that a year later, he forgot that that had occurred. (The time placements, I had to check, but the event I recall in detail.) But I still occasionally get stuck in loops about it. Despite the fact that a.) he is no longer my friend and b.) I know he didn’t even remember it, three years ago, so I know it’s pointless and doesn’t matter. So frustrating.

  255. RahXephon, Bouncer of the De Facto Feminist Club says

    You are unaware that it’s presumptuous for you to assert that an outward behavior is itself the cause of that same behavior? Heh.

    I admit I misspoke about the causal direction between your admitted assholishness, and a pattern of behavior I noticed. I don’t know in which direction it goes, and rescind my claims about it. That better?

    Not true. I expect honest treatment from a group of people who profess to care about evidence and honesty.

    I don’t care about “good” treatment. You can call me a worthless piece of shit and tell me to die in a fire. It’s fine.

    Then I misspoke again, you worthless piece of shit. (If you’re gonna leave the door open like that…)

    Specifically what this means is that I advocate the violent suppression of priests. And that’s just self-defense.

    And yet you never mentioned this during our original discussion. Either way, “Favoured Group A violently suppressing Disfavoured Group B” isn’t just wrong, but fails in the long term, as Groups A and B aren’t fixed. “You” and “priests” can easily become “priests and their pissed-off backers” and “you”.

    I maintain the right to delineate what I am willing to do for others upon their request, and I understand that others can do the same.

    Except for priests. I suppose if your ethics are relative, then they’re also fungible?

  256. says

    Cipher, I have loops from childhood. Don’t worry about having them, it’s easier (or at least it is for me) to find ways to snap the loop. Until the next time, then you snap it again.

  257. says

    if your ethics are relative

    whose ethics are “absolute”?

    (rhetorical question. I know that Pharyngula supports relative ethics because I’ve been in entirely too many threads in which the Horde was trying to get that point through to ryan)

  258. RahXephon, Bouncer of the De Facto Feminist Club says

    @Jadehawk

    You’re right. When SGBM said:

    I maintain the right to delineate what I am willing to do for others upon their request, and I understand that others can do the same.

    He’s saying that he isn’t willing to, say, let priests live even if they request it, and I suppose if he requests they don’t violently rebel and depose him then he’s fine with that delineation as well.

    Yeah, that’s perfectly cogent.

    The late afternoon is not the best time for me to be philosophizin’ lately.

  259. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    I do this too. I am able to keep it to myself, though, at least most of the time. I don’t follow people about harassing them.

    That’s not true, Caine. Are you really unaware that that’s exactly what you’re doing when you drag up some old complaint about my “ideas and tactics”, riffing off ‘Tis’s lies as an opportunity for you to get your kicks in?

    Do you really lack such basic introspection?

  260. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    Cipher, I have loops from childhood. Don’t worry about having them, it’s easier (or at least it is for me) to find ways to snap the loop. Until the next time, then you snap it again.

    I think this is good advice. I am having success with the sensory jolt thing in some cases, and derailing myself onto another loop (like watching Buffy) can help, and occasionally I end up having to tell myself to shut up out loud, but I’ve gotta work on finding some new strategies for the tougher loops. The real challenge, and the thing I’ve found most useful, is recognizing the beginnings of them. Another hard part is knowing when it’s something I should be working on processing (so I can let myself loop it for a while because it really is part of how I process things) and when it’s something I should be dropping.

  261. says

    You’re right. [...]Yeah, that’s perfectly cogent.

    I didn’t say shit about the cogency of his attitude towards priests or the cogency of the specific way in which his ethics are relative.

    I merely stated that the mere fact of them being relative is hardly criticizable, since Pharyngulites practice relative ethics, as well (unless, of course, you are pro-hypocrisy, too :-p )

  262. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    I admit I misspoke about the causal direction between your admitted assholishness, and a pattern of behavior I noticed. I don’t know in which direction it goes, and rescind my claims about it. That better?

    Yes, thanks.

    Then I misspoke again, you worthless piece of shit. (If you’re gonna leave the door open like that…)

    Thank you.

    And yet you never mentioned this during our original discussion.

    I don’t think you were there for the earlier discussion where this came up.

    Either way,

    Not interested in arguing the merits of right now, only in being properly understood.

    Except for priests. I suppose if your ethics are relative, then they’re also fungible?

    No, not fungible.

    and I suppose if he requests they don’t violently rebel and depose him

    Again, I am not an authoritarian leader. I am an authoritarian follower.

  263. RahXephon, Bouncer of the De Facto Feminist Club says

    I wish I could rewrite my original post to SGBM. Rather than taking the “pop-psych-y” approach, I should’ve said that I recognized his tenaciousness because I used to engage in similar behavior myself, and I finally had to stop before I imploded. If I could, I would want to express understanding, not judgment, but I already torched that bridge. The best I can do is admit my original assessment, at least regarding the link between SGBM’s personality and this pattern of behavior, really was presumptuous and wrong.

    This is why my attitude is usually “and not a single fuck was given that day”. It’s my own personal coping mechanism. Doesn’t stop me from having acute attacks of SIWOTI, though, nor does it stop me from getting annoyed and saying stupid things, which should be readily apparent.

  264. says

    Cipher:

    The real challenge, and the thing I’ve found most useful, is recognizing the beginnings of them.

    Oh, I hear this. Same here, in regard to both the challenge and the usefulness. It’s much easier for me to derail if I can catch it at the beginning. The longer it goes on, the more difficult it is to find an effective snap.

    Like you, I do often have to let things loop and simmer, when I haven’t figured out what to do about something yet. That, I’ve learned just to ignore until a little *ding* goes off somewhere in the brain. I tend to work when that’s going on, in order to push it back so it can work without disrupting everything else.

  265. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    RahXephon,

    I wish I could rewrite my original post to SGBM.

    It’s as good as done. Thanks for your reconsideration. (Also, in my case, I think X and Y are both probably caused by Z.)

  266. RahXephon, Bouncer of the De Facto Feminist Club says

    Not interested in arguing the merits of right now, only in being properly understood.

    And my “either way” comment was really just to say that your clarification didn’t change my opinion on your position, not an argument of merits. Guess I misspoke again!

    And I’m not even drunk yet.

  267. Beatrice says

    SO much yes. I actually do it a lot worse with my own behavior, especially when (and this part I know is pretty common) I’m ashamed of it, and that’s often when I end up stuck obsessing about something that’s inconsequential.

    I’m not sure which is worse for me, endlessly questioning myself or others. Both come down to berating myself for being stupid. It’s tiring and I can bring myself to tears of frustration or getting a headache from being so upset. And yes, there are some situations from years back that I still sometimes get frantic about, obsess for hours, going over (at least what it seems like) every detail.

    Even when I read posts here, I sometimes reread someone’s answer to me numerous times, trying to find if there was some hidden meaning or obvious sarcasm or some sign that they dislike me and I should stop posting forever and hide in a hole. It’s usually easier with the assholes, I know I’m right and I don’t end up questioning myself endlessly.

  268. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    Also, thanks for indirectly facilitating my nym change. I always love an excuse to do that.

  269. Beatrice says

    Caine, Fleur du mal,

    I saw. No problem, his post was a nice change from the nastiness we’ve been seeing from many FTB bloggers and I thought it was a good read.

  270. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    I didn’t say shit about the cogency of his attitude towards priests or the cogency of the specific way in which his ethics are relative.

    So, my cogency comment…wasn’t cogent?

    I REALLY shouldn’t be philosophizin’ in the late afternoon…

    I merely stated that the mere fact of them being relative is hardly criticizable, since Pharyngulites practice relative ethics, as well (unless, of course, you are pro-hypocrisy, too :-p )

    The relationship in my head between “relative” and “fungible” in my comment still isn’t clear even to me now. I’ll chalk it up to brain mites and make it a mark of shame in my career file as a Smart Commenter. Or a mark of pride for my Fuckup-in-Residence file.

  271. says

    Beatrice:

    his post was a nice change from the nastiness we’ve been seeing from many FTB bloggers and I thought it was a good read.

    It really was, especially after what’s been going on at FTB lately. It was refreshing, and that’s a bit sad.

  272. NuMad says

    RahXephon,

    Not a fun mystery, like Scooby Doo, just a tedious one.

    More tedious than Scooby Doo?! Ruh roh!

  273. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    More tedious than Scooby Doo?! Ruh roh!

    RahXephon: Now we’ll see who SGBM really is!
    *pulls mask off*
    The Horde: Old Man Jenkins?!
    Old Man Jenkins: Yes, and I would’ve gotten away with it too, if it weren’t for you meddling skeptics!

  274. says

    RahXephon:

    The relationship in my head between “relative” and “fungible” in my comment still isn’t clear even to me now.

    Perhaps you meant frangible.

  275. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    Perhaps you meant frangible.

    Or fragile. Or frangipane. Or Fraggle Rock.

    The world may never know.

  276. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Every time I watched scooby doo, it struck me how weird it is that all these random people have this access to these lifelike monster costumes and hologram effects in the 70s.

    Were halloween masks really that good back then?

  277. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    Every time I watched scooby doo, it struck me how weird it is that all these random people have this access to these lifelike monster costumes and hologram effects in the 70s

    It’s gross fiscal irresponsibility. Old Man Jenkins wouldn’t have lost his farm due to unpaid property taxes in the first place if he hadn’t invested his life savings in fog machines and infinitely-looping hallways in his ramshackle farmhouse.

  278. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Caine:
    fair enough.

  279. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    Uh, TLC, Scooby Doo was a cartoon. The “amazing” costumes were kinda vital to the general plot. ;P

    But if cartoons are watching cartoons, then Scooby Doo is like Court TV.

  280. cicely. Just cicely. says

    *hug* for Mattir; I’m sorry to hear about your Shadow-bunny, and that you’re stuck there solo in your grown-up underpants.
    :(
    -
    For a while, we had here in Springfield a man who shared The Husband’s first-and-last names, and who had the same middle initial. He’s since moved to one of the towns hereabouts, and his family/friends/acquaintances seem to have all caught up with him, but for a while we were constantly getting calls for him.
    -
    Gen, I’m glad to hear that you’re doing better; tentacles crossed for your husband’s interview outcome.
    -

    *And yes, I have taken stats and probability courses and know the odds. My two bucks a week habit gives me a reason to get out of bed in the morningafternoon.

    We call it “renting the dream”.
    :)
    -
    Hi, Sarahface; welcome in!
    -
    Game!
    *placing bookmark in Thread*
    -

  281. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    Cartoon Nancy Grace: Old Man Jenkins has just been acquitted of all charges due to “mitigating circumstances”!

    Cartoon Greta Van Susteren: What?! What mitigating circumstances?!

    CNG: According to the court documents, “a hard luck story” and “charming befuddlement.” This is an outrage! The devil must be dancin’ tonight!

  282. says

    RahXephon:

    But if cartoons are watching cartoons, then Scooby Doo is like Court TV.

    Yes…but which cartoons were watching Scooby Doo*? And why in the hell didn’t one of them kill Scrappy Doo?

    *I have a large plush Scooby Doo that speaks. :D

  283. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    Yes…but which cartoons were watching Scooby Doo*?

    Jabberjaw, and they’re shaking with jealousy the entire time.

  284. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Fuck, someone just took a massive shit on my doorstep.

    No, not literally. I found a fucking flyer stuck in my door just now that says “Cigarette Smoking hurts babies. So does abortion”… showing the usual graphic ‘fetus’ image.

    Disgusting. I’m tempted to write an email to both local newspapers. Fucking scum.

  285. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    @TLC

    I’m apparently suffering from a mix of sleep deprivation and punch-drunkenness, so I’ll keep the jokes that popped into my head to myself.

    As far as a serious reply, I think a flyer that said “Cigarette smoking can ruin your life. So can not being able to get an abortion” would be a pithy counter.

  286. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    Although I’m really tempted to fix the sentence fragment. Are semi-colons allowed on flyers?

  287. says

    Crip Dyke, I am so glad you are going to law school because you are going to rock it!!! Thank you for your posts on Consitution vs ballot measure law. I learned things I did not have firmly fixed in my head before. (I’m a new citizen).

    Caine, I look forward to seeing the progress on Bender’s Duckie!

    Pitbull:

    I don’t owe any of you “acceptance”.

    Great! I expect that will go both ways?

    I don’t respect you, Pteryxx.

    Again, awesome – I expect that you, too, do not expect respect in return?

    What I insist upon is being judged accurately and fairly. If I am hated, I want to be hated for things that are true.

    Wait, what? I thought you had already set the ground rules (see above), whereby you do not owe anyone acceptance nor respect. Why do you think you can then “insist” that others treat you in some manner of your own choosing? Nobody owes you that courtesy.

    Here’s the thing, pitbull – you say you don’t owe anyone acceptance or respect. You need to understand that no one owes you acceptance or respect, either. That includes not having to respond to your insistence that people obey your arbitrary rules/answer to your demands.

    Respect is a two-way street. You want it? You have to give it.

  288. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    @niftyatheist

    Be careful. I just made that mistake and it was like poking a nest of hornets, if those hornets also happened to be lawyers.

    And now I’m picturing a hornet stinging me and then 500 more stinging me while shouting “AMICUS CURIAE!”

  289. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    That includes not having to respond to your insistence that people obey your arbitrary rules/answer to your demands.

    Er. Right after quoting him saying that he wants to be judged accurately and fairly? It sounds kinda silly to complain about his “arbitrary rules.” It’s neither arbitrary nor unreasonable to expect that people have intellectual honesty in dealing with you, and you definitely don’t need to respect someone to do that.

    In some of what’s involved here, I think SG’s misunderstanding at least some part of people’s motivations for acting the way they are, but the “demand” he’s made there is completely basic and fair.

  290. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    There. Just fired this off to both newspapers:

    I am writing the paper to register my disgust with the persons or organization who dropped a flyer on my doorstep that said “Cigarette smoking hurts babies. So does abortion.” Displayed was a graphic image of a dead and mutilated fetus.

    The ‘Pro life’ crusaders, and I use that term in the loosest possible sense, never fail to amaze me. If they really cared about children and babies, they’d focus on women’s issues, and try to maybe make this a world where a single mother might actually feel good about trying to raise a child.

    But whenever I bring this up to a pro-lifer, they tell me the same thing: “Those women want to sleep around outside of marriage, they can accept the consequences!”

    Which leads me to the ‘Pro-Life’ crusade’s real agenda: trying to impose their religious ideals on women and using the poverty and hardship of single motherhood as ‘punishment’. I find it appalling. Children are not and should never be a punishment.

    This is ignoring the occasional medical necessity for abortion (hello, Ectopic pregnancies anyone?) and the fact that women often struggle with the decision, and I find it unethical to treat them like murderers and try to scare them with gross-out images of dead fetuses.

    Sincerely,

  291. David Marjanović says

    Paper submitted, I can go to bed. :-) It’s quite a feeling to write an e-mail to pnas at nas edu… or at least I’m sure it would be if I didn’t have such a headache from having stayed up way too long yesterday.

    Of course, PNAS is so prestigious that it rejects almost all submissions. We’ll see.

    It’s a 500-word “Letter”, an incredibly condensed reply to something they published recently.

    Caught up with the previous subthread.

    Mathilde

    “Might” and “fight”.

    Egbert

    “Edge” and “bright” (or “shiny”). “Edge” as in “sword edge” obviously.

    I say “active” because I can’t really do music as aural wallpaper, unless it’s instrumental and then only in some cases. My mind is so damn busy that I require a lot of silence, or at least quiet, or I can’t focus. I can’t read with music on, and I can’t carry on an optimal conversation.

    I’m like that.

    Are there any other synesthetes here?

    Ha! You have no colorless green idea! Sometimes it feels like Sili and I are the only pharynguloids who aren’t ones! :-) (Oh, and Alethea.)

    I’d not laughed harder since reading the Sartre Cookbook.

    Seriously. Read the cookbook – especially if you’ve read any existentialism before, but I’m told it’s even funny if you haven’t.

    Doesn’t seem to work. I have only a vague idea what existentialism is, and while I did chortle in several places, caught the more obvious allusions to existentialism, and have now recommended the cookbook to my family, I was easily capable of continuing to eat chocolate. :-)

    I almost stopped reading at the omelet… because it’s an utterly bizarre idea to put cheese into an omelet. Seriously, WTF?

    The stroke of genius, I must admit, are the tides. X-)

    65 hours of labour

    *facepalm*

    but here it’s the cinnamon fern sporing all over the place.

    But does it pill up in the shower?

    Subthread won.

    Can you imagine the shit going down as soon as I get pregnant? Major life changing event ahead, retreat to the bunkers! Avoid women and children!

    I admit, I smiled.

    *cocoa shell tea with rooibos and cinnamon and aniseed and licorice and vanilla*

    Also, be careful with naming the child after anyone at all. Family member, friend, anyone.

    Nobody in my family is named after anyone, except arguably for the younger sister whose name has occasionally cropped up four generations ago and earlier.

    My name was specifically chosen to be international. (And specifically not to have an R in it; my dad thinks there can be only one.) Also, where I come from, it’s rare, but not freakishly rare.

    Tell him the name doesn’t matter. When DF is 6, he/she will either barf or fart in class, and be called Stinky or Barfy for a few years. This will change in middle school to either Cupcake or Sweetums if a girl, and remain Barfy or Stinky if a boy. By college, the name will change to (LastName)-ster or (LastName)-y regardless of gender. Somewhere in there, the child will fight to be called by their middle name for a year or two, and this might take, but probably won’t. And then after college when they move somewhere new, they will choose their own name and attempt to convince everyone it’s what they’ve always gone by, which just might work. :)

    Every sentence a culture shock. Every single one.

    Slimepit and The Scented Nectarines.

    Worst band name ever. :-)

    Chortling over Rebecca pulling out of TAM so they can begin the work of ridding skepticism of the “cancer” that is Greta, Rebecca/PZ/et al.

    Unintentional Godwin FTL!

    (Grew up in Austria; can’t help but… notice when people are compared to cancer, or to parasites for that matter.)

    Heya Nifty – careful with trying to fight ALL THE FIGHTS.

    Destroy All Monsters
    Ignore All Rules

    …sorry.

    There is, however, reason for concern, and it ties into a larger context about the public’s understanding of and appreciation for the scientific basics: if the United States continues to fall behind other nations in science education, our future dims.

    This is so wrong-headed.

    Voters who don’t know shit will elect politicians who don’t know shit either, and those shitty politicians will then make shitty decisions that everyone in the country (and often outside, too!) will suffer from long before the brain drain or anything starts – long before “ooh, we might not be Number One anymore, where are my smelling salts!” could ever become an “issue”.

    Townsend is, supposedly, a communication expert.

    *headdesk* I suppose I should have guessed it.

    How can I know that people are afflicted with The Gay if they aren’t having sex right in front of me? Otherwise I would never assume something so unspeakably terrible about a person.

    Recently it was rumored that a German politician might be lesbian. Her reaction? Outrage at such “heinous insinuations”. *sigh*

    Mr. Darkheart is in “oh gods, it’s a kid and it won’t go away!” paralysis

    :-D

    My grandmother was Ginny, my mother was Alice/Al/Ally, so I got stuck with…Ginger! Wonderful, eh? Christ.

    *facepalm* I’m reminded of how “Christ, what an asshole” works in all situations.

    I know someone who named their daughter that. I asked how it was pronounced and they couldn’t explain.

    what

    Gaelic pronounciation is weird. There’s the rule that although you can cluster about as many different vowels together, as soon as there’s a consonant in between, it can only be either open (A, O, U) or closed (I, E) on either side.

    What’s going on is that almost all consonants have doublets, and the vowel letters around them are used to clarify which one of the pair is meant. “Broad to broad and slender to slender” – back vowels (a, o, u) around velarized consonants and front vowels (e, i) around palatalized consonants.

    Very similarly, Polish has such a distinction of two sets of consonants; the palatalized ones are marked by a silent i behind them when a vowel follows, and an accent if there’s no vowel behind them. (I’m slightly simplifying.)

    Always remember: the spelling systems of Irish and Scottish Gaelic are wild, but, unlike that of English, they actually follow rules!

    20th installment of my weekly series, chronicling Mitt’s mendacity.

    Quite impressive.

    I hope the media (Rachel Maddow? Stephen Colbert?) take him to task, so he can say “I never said it, and the media took it out of context while broadcasting it within all its context live on national TV”.

    “There are those who tell the truth. There are those who distort the truth. And then there’s Mitt Romney…. Not to put too fine a point on it, he lies. Quite a bit.”

    Well said.

    Fossil Butte National Monument

    Awesome.
    That is all.

    No, I haven’t been there.

    How long’s Jules stying in July? Might actually be that I make it to Berlin…

    Last time we talked, she intended to stay into early August (!) and hadn’t even bought a return ticket. Everything is conditional on the health of her family, though.

    the Taung child* [...]

    * a fairly complete Erectus specimen

    You’ve confused it with the Turkana boy, who counts as Homo erectus in the widest sense (many would say H. ergaster instead).

    The Taung child belongs to Australopithecus africanus and was killed by a crowned eagle or suchlike.

    Apparently, he wants to bring a watered-down slimepit to FTB.

    Well, no. That’s clearly not his magic intent. He’s just, as you say, clueless. He has a lot left to learn.

    When I was around 14, an older cousin I was visiting asked me “what are you going to do about your name? It sounds like a stripper name.” Yeah, thanks, that helps.

    *facepalm*
    *howl*

    Something even more strange: I can sing the lyrics to an entire song, but not really comprehend them. I can’t tell you how many 80s songs I know by heart that I didn’t realize the message behind until I saw the lyrics at some karaoke bar.

    I can’t do that in languages I understand, and even otherwise it’s difficult (because understanding the words makes them much easier to remember).

    SWEET JEEBUS A TINY PYGMY HIPPO EATING LETTUCE

    *squeeeeee*

    two years after we had our second daughter, Mr. Nifty’s sister and her family acquired a golden lab and named it our daughter’s name. Yes, seriously.
    Later, she claimed that it was their little boy who did the naming, but still WTF? You tell the kid, NO, that is your cousin’s name, let’s pick another name! (grr)
    Years later when the poor dog died, I was the worst in the world because I was “insensitive” in my note of condolence – I failed to name the dog in the letter.
    True story!

    Can you imagine a tired berserker? That’s how I feel.

    They’re just oxen-like morons mindlessly pushing hoes.

    Bros behind hoes!

    + 1

    My reaction to illithid.

    :-D

    I also still have that weird thing where I can’t watch people performing music.

    Please explain.

    Making pizza tonight!

    From scratch ?

    …you must first… invent the universe.

    Withholding any acknowledgement of error from me is apparently some kind of expression of dominance for you

    …I don’t think so. I think it’s an expression of simply not caring about that old thread that contained much emotion but, apparently, not much of importance to Caine.

    then tacked on an unusual spelling which makes me named after a well-hated person in American history of whom he was previously ignorant.

    Argh.

    Hahahahahahaha. Ah, Hedwig. According to my name book* it means “strife and fight”. Not the nicest thing to hang on a kid.

    *Stands by to be corrected.

    The book is right; it’s yet another “fightfight” name, just like Hildegund and Bathilde.

    I was going to be called Guy, until my parents realised I was due on the 5th November.

    X-D

  292. says

    Cipher:

    I think SG’s misunderstanding at least some part of people’s motivations for acting the way they are, but the “demand” he’s made there is completely basic and fair.

    I simply don’t care anymore. I have watched SG repeatedly hound and harass people* and it’s often nothing to do with being “judged accurately and fairly”. He’s much too fond of looking for and starting fights for me. I’m done.

    *I’m tired of his harassment of others getting a pass because of “oh, hey, it’s SG” too. He drives people off of TET with this crap on a regular basis.

  293. old man jenkins ॐ says

    I don’t owe any of you “acceptance”.

    Great! I expect that will go both ways?

    I haven’t been accepted here for several years. You don’t think that anyone, including yourself or Pteryxx, is entitled to demand acceptance from strangers, do you?

    Again, awesome – I expect that you, too, do not expect respect in return?

    Of course not. You don’t think that anyone, including yourself or Pteryxx, is entitled to demand respect from strangers, do you?

    Wait, what? I thought you had already set the ground rules (see above), whereby you do not owe anyone acceptance nor respect.

    You should be aware that acting honestly does not necessarily involve either acceptance or respect.

    Why do you think you can then “insist” that others treat you in some manner of your own choosing? Nobody owes you that courtesy.

    Nobody owes me shit, but again, this is a community of people who ostensibly pride themselves on their commitment to honesty and evidence-based reasoning.

    I intend to hold people to this, their own commitment — moreover, a commitment which supposedly rises to the level of self-identity.

    They claim to value evidence even more than reciprocity, although for the record I have always been willing to be reciprocal with regard to evidence.

    That includes not having to respond to your insistence that people obey your arbitrary rules/answer to your demands.

    I have no ability to force people to respond, niftyatheist. And I have never pretended otherwise.

  294. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    Pitbull, Caine has a major point. I won’t speculate WHY you’re so tenacious, since you’re clearly a complicated person, but it starts to get a bit ‘monopolizing’ when this stuff goes on for as long as it does.

    Granted, people are free to respond or not as they see fit and all that, and really I have nothing to request of you either way since I can pretty much ‘tune it out’ for the most part, but Caine’s point still stands.

  295. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    old man jenkins ॐ

    AHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-HAAHAAAAAAAAA *wheeze*

    Seriously, that is glorious. It’s the single greatest thing to happen to me in my entire life. I’ve made an indelible mark on the Pharyngu-scape. Choirs of Velmas will sing your praises, with the same faux-surprised line readings we all know and love.

  296. old man jenkins ॐ says

    I simply don’t care anymore. I have watched SG repeatedly hound and harass people* and it’s often nothing to do with being “judged accurately and fairly”.

    Right, sometimes it’s about ensuring they don’t bullshit about other people, or harm oppressed groups. I’d be glad to hear of any counterexamples.

  297. says

    Is there a rhetorical term for that thing that pf did earlier? When you argue badly by saying something technically true. Of course the majority opposing full human rights for some people is a bad thing, and of course that makes gains fragile, and of course better education is needed. But that’s utterly inadequate as a response to the situation on the ground. There ought to be a term. It’s sort of like litotes, but not the same.

    On another note, Gen, I have a small hypothesis that Bad Shit Happening can alleviate depression. It’s a small sample, just me and a friend and you. My theory, which is mine*, is that the malfunctioning part of your brain sees that you’re stressed/hurting/sad, so it can relax going “My job here is done”.

    (*Caution, post may make no sense. Do not apply internally.)

  298. old man jenkins ॐ says

    Caine’s point still stands.

    Caine’s point was duly noted years ago.

  299. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    And I’ll be more specific about what I said. I don’t believe for a second that Caine is not engaging with SG because she enjoys inflicting pain or is expressing dominance. I think that accusation is both wildly off base and making it even less likely that he’ll get what he wants. I think what’s going on is that Caine doesn’t see the miscommunication involved as terribly important, certainly not important enough to justify the way that SG has latched on to it, and she has disengaged because she does not see the conversation going anywhere productive. (And I think your post above, Caine, generally confirms that, though of course correct me if I’m wrong.)

    I also think, SG, that what you said to pteryxx was fairly shitty, and not just because it was mean. It would have been a good idea to acknowledge that behavior resembling that of an emotional abuser can be triggering to a survivor even when it comes from someone who is not your friend, and to make at least a token gesture of understanding about that, even if you then went on to say that you didn’t think your behavior was wrong and weren’t going to lay off. It also would appear to me to be a net loss if what you’ve said here contributes to silencing pteryxx, because I think xe has valuable stuff to offer on a variety of important topics, even if xe has misspoken or made mistakes at times (I’m assuming xe has because we all do). And I think you may underestimate the extent to which your latch-on-and-hold behavior can be intimidating or frightening to other people. (It hasn’t been to me, generally, but I also haven’t ever really gained your ire; I hope that that record continues with this comment.)

  300. says

    David:

    I almost stopped reading at the omelet… because it’s an utterly bizarre idea to put cheese into an omelet.

    Cheese omelet is standard fare here in ‘merica. So is an omelet stuffed with just about anything you can imagine.

    The person who couldn’t explain how to pronounce Aoife properly was trying to do it over the ‘net, they live in France. ;)

    …I don’t think so. I think it’s an expression of simply not caring about that old thread that contained much emotion but, apparently, not much of importance to Caine.

    Pretty much. There wasn’t any major emotion on my part, I quoted clumsily and apologized for it. As I said, if that isn’t enough, tough.

  301. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    Nobody owes me shit, but again, this is a community of people who ostensibly pride themselves on their commitment to honesty and evidence-based reasoning.

    No no no, we commit ourselves to pie. That is who we are.

  302. Rey Fox says

    TLC: On one of my early morning raptor survey runs the other day, I passed a house that had a banner up on the porch with a picture of a…one of those idealized in utero babies or whatever, I think, and the headline: “Pretend I’m A Tree & Save Me”.

    Oh, for a Molotov cocktail…

  303. says

    Rey:

    one of those idealized in utero babies or whatever, I think, and the headline: “Pretend I’m A Tree & Save Me”.

    Wow. That’s seriously obnoxious.

  304. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    “Pretend I’m a Tree and Prune Me Before the Next Hailstorm” would be more meteorologically relevant to me given the past few days.

  305. says

    “Pretend I’m A Tree & Save Me”.

    Can you imagine the howls if banners were made up with an image of a beautiful young tree and it read “Pretend I’m A Fetus & Save Me”?

  306. David Marjanović says

    Fake-random-scrolling time!

    Unholy fucktoy of gods

    I love that.

    You… you prematurely Marjanovićed?

    O.o

    X-D

    I’m sensitive. :-)

    Since you’re an asshole, while I might (and that’s MIGHT) be wrong about a detail, my general impression that you get your jollies from berating people who transgress your personal ideals of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. still stands.

    I don’t think any jollies are involved. I think it’s simply SIWOTI syndrome.

    In my case, at least, it would almost be more useful to advise me not to be so angry all the time. I don’t know how common this is at all, but holding on to things isn’t the active, energy-draining behavior for me, letting go of them is. It takes a major act of will and effort to drop something.

    ditto.

    except that in the case of people’s misinterpretations/lies/other forms of being WOTI, after a week or two the relevance of the people fades, and the urge to convince/correct them disappears. But I still mull over and get frustrated at the actual wrongness in my mind.

    Sounds all very familiar.

    to put it more succinctly, misrepresentations/miscommunications/general WOTI and WIMS, are causing me physical discomfort, so I tend to try to fix them. And the feeling that I should (have) correct(ed) such errors doesn’t go away, but the importance of setting the people involved straight and maybe to get them to see their mistake tends to fade when I don’t have to be around those people (geographically or internet-wise).

    Sounds even more familiar.

    *dumps heap of hugs on floor*
    *falls on heap*
    *falls asleep*

  307. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    Can you imagine the howls if banners were made up with an image of a beautiful young tree and it read “Pretend I’m A Fetus & Save Me”?

    We need to convince a pro-lifer to chain themselves to a fetus to stop the bulldozers.

  308. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    I can’t find the TET in which I explained about not being able to watch people play music. A thread or so later somebody (possibly Rey Fox) quoted Seinfeld talking about not being able to watch men singing in reference to it. But I can’t find it.

  309. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    The stupid flyer says I can learn more at ‘ENDtheKILLING.ca’

    I’m torn between checking it out or not. Just looking at this stupid thing which can’t even really be used to line an animal cage or start a decent fire is making me more pissed off than I expected to be.

  310. opposablethumbs says

    @TLC #351 Nice one, TLC. Well said – hope they print it! (I don’t know if you put it that way about medically necessary abortions because that’s what you thought would fly in this paper; I mean I disagree with seeming to concede the point that abortions are bad in the first place, but I get that it could be a tactical move on your part as you know the paper).

  311. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

    one of those idealized in utero babies or whatever, I think, and the headline: “Pretend I’m A Tree & Save Me”.

    Oh, gag.
    ———————————–

    Welp, the foot tattoos are done. They didn’t come quite as nice as I’d hoped, but eh, that’s what I get for being too wrapped up in designing them and never bothering to practice making them. Best part is that I still have some henna left over, so I can redo the tats when needed and possibly have a crack at more practice in the meantime.

    Oh crap, Mom, Brother and SIL are home. And I left the henna in the fridge. *looks down at feet* Double crap. Time for the toilet paper and sneaker combo. I hope it doesn’t smudge.
    ———————————–

    Still wish fundieism would die already. This slow and painful, let’s-drag-the-world-down-with-us death is SO. FUCKING. ANNOYING. And headache-inducing.

  312. Rey Fox says

    I see it didn’t take long for the Horde to put its collective finger on why that banner pissed me off so much. Remember also that I am a wildlife biology major, and thus have some personal commitment to conservation. So for these fuckwits to try to appeal to me in the most condescending, insulting manner tends to provoke my arson tendencies.

    * Note: I really have almost never set anything on fire in my life

  313. David Marjanović says

    I’m with comment 361.

    Sili, did the camera people catch us? I’ll watch the video later today.

    The person who couldn’t explain how to pronounce Aoife properly was trying to do it over the ‘net, they live in France. ;)

    Oh. :-)

    I don’t think it’ll stop amusing me that the only openly pro-hypocrisy person on here is also one of the very few people who are consistently non-hypocritical in their shark-tank behavior :-p

    Well, I think it’s very easy to explain: he’s aware of hypocrisy, so he can easily consciously avoid it. :-)

  314. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    I really have almost never set anything on fire in my life

    Spoken like a true non-arsonist!

  315. Sili says

    I’ve been pretty lucky with my omelettes lately – just the right amount of fluffiness.

    Cheese one day and asparagus last night.

  316. old man jenkins ॐ says

    Cipher,

    I also think, SG, that what you said to pteryxx was fairly shitty, and not just because it was mean. It would have been a good idea to acknowledge that behavior resembling that of an emotional abuser can be triggering to a survivor even when it comes from someone who is not your friend, and to make at least a token gesture of understanding about that, even if you then went on to say that you didn’t think your behavior was wrong and weren’t going to lay off. It also would appear to me to be a net loss if what you’ve said here contributes to silencing pteryxx, because I think xe has valuable stuff to offer on a variety of important topics

    Fair points. I can certainly understand how a conflation could be made such that my words are triggering.

    I think I should say that if anyone feels emotionally ambiguous about me, it is best to simply regard me as an enemy. I won’t mind, and I’d rather that people be emotionally distant from than feel betrayed by me.

  317. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

    @TLC #351 Nice one, TLC. Well said – hope they print it! (I don’t know if you put it that way about medically necessary abortions because that’s what you thought would fly in this paper; I mean I disagree with seeming to concede the point that abortions are bad in the first place, but I get that it could be a tactical move on your part as you know the paper).

    I didn’t mean to appear to concede any points. It’s just that last time I wrote the newspaper an email about this very issue, I got a reply that totally misconstrued the point, and I wanted to avoid the whole ‘BUT YOU’RE KILLING BAAABIES!” emotional trap this time.

    But I’ll keep what you pointed out in mind next time I have to do this.

  318. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    So, our options are being anti-hypocrisy and hypocritical, and pro-hypocrisy and non-hypocritical.

    All that really tells me is that we’re all really good at not meeting our personal goals.

  319. Sili says

    Sili, did the camera people catch us? I’ll watch the video later today.

    I don’t know if that’s the official video (they mentioned their B-roll not working), but the video is just of Watson. My voice doesn’t annoy me as much as usual, but I sound like I’m errrrr about to errrrrrr cry at the end of my … errrrr … question eerrrrrr.

  320. David Marjanović says

    Cipher, if you can’t find the subthread, maybe it’s over on ScienceBlogs, and the comments still haven’t been restored?

    Well, I think it’s very easy to explain: he’s aware of hypocrisy, so he can easily consciously avoid it. :-)

    …by which I mean… in order to be able to declare himself pro-hypocrisy, a decidedly uncommon position, he must have given that issue a lot of thought; that’s why he’s aware of it, knows it when he sees it, and can avoid it more easily than people who aren’t used to recognizing it.

  321. Sili says

    Congrats on the paper! by the way. Sorry to have kept you from working so many nights.

  322. Jessa says

    David Marjanović:

    I almost stopped reading at the omelet… because it’s an utterly bizarre idea to put cheese into an omelet. Seriously, WTF?

    I see that Caine has already addressed this, but you’d be hard-pressed to find an omelet that did not have cheese here in the US.

    Related: my breakfast this morning was an omelet with avocado, tomato, and smoked Swiss cheese. It was delicious.

  323. John Morales says

    TLC,

    The stupid flyer says I can learn more at ‘ENDtheKILLING.ca’

    I’m torn between checking it out or not. Just looking at this stupid thing which can’t even really be used to line an animal cage or start a decent fire is making me more pissed off than I expected to be.

    Like poking a sore tooth with your tongue, you know it’s gonna hurt.

    (People still do it, but)

  324. says

    So, our options are being anti-hypocrisy and hypocritical, and pro-hypocrisy and non-hypocritical.

    nah, the other options are also available. Sastra for example seems to be both anti-hypocrisy and non-hypocritical (but then, Sastra is less a shark and more of a… cat: soft and cuddly and yet vicious)

  325. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    nah, the other options are also available. Sastra for example seems to be both anti-hypocrisy and non-hypocritical (but then, Sastra is less a shark and more of a… cat: soft and cuddly and yet vicious)

    So just out of curiosity, was I hypocritical, and where? I should get to work on fixing it.

  326. says

    So just out of curiosity, was I hypocritical, and where? I should get to work on fixing it.

    eh. if you’ve vicious to non-regulars who are wrong, but cut regulars some slack, then

    a)you’re not likely to notice that you’re doing it, and
    b)not likely to do anything about it even if you noticed, since very few people actually seem to believe that members of the Horde deserve the same regular shark-tanking that non-members and n00bs deserve. Hence the… “unfriendly” attitudes towards those that use the shark-treatment on regulars (recently, that would be SC and SG)

    FWIW, I can’t recall an instance of you specifically doing that, so for all I know you may well share the Sastra spot. It’s unlikely, given the general tendency here, but it’s entirely possible.

  327. John Morales says

    <sigh>

    RahXephon, welcome to TET proper.

    I tell you, Jadehawk is worth reading literally.

    Here’s another option: mine.

    (I note that Sastra, amongst the other awesomeness, is both focused and selective in her approach)

  328. David Marjanović says

    Comment 390 and 392 FTW. I’ll try to stick the flounce this time. The computer was acting up, too…

    I think I should say that if anyone feels emotionally ambiguous about me, it is best to simply regard me as an enemy. I won’t mind, and I’d rather that people be emotionally distant from than feel betrayed by me.

    …Well said, actually. *hug*

    Sorry to have kept you from working so many nights.

    To be honest, that honor goes to TET and PET.

  329. David Marjanović says

    Fluffy? Omelets don’t need to be fluffy either.

    But while I am at it, pancakes/crêpes are called “omelets” in the western end of Austria and probably in Switzerland…

    Here’s another option: mine.

    That, though, seems to include assuming too often that everything is obvious and explaining too little.

  330. Nutmeg says

    Tentacles crossed for David M’s paper. Might as well aim high!

    ***

    Maybe the Hive-mind can help me with an etiquette question. Do I show up for a bridal shower 15 minutes early, right on time, 15 minutes late, or some other time that I would never think of? Google is both pissing me off (sexism much?) and being unhelpful, and my mom is out of town.

    I’m still cranky because I have to go to a bridal shower full of people that I don’t know instead of going to Pride. Must…resist temptation…to wear combat boots…to Mennonite wedding shower.

  331. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    eh. if you’ve vicious to non-regulars who are wrong, but cut regulars some slack

    Never. Even if it’s Caine*, I’d still bust someone down to deckhand for royally screwing up.

    Nobody’s gonna make me look bad on my Helicarrier.

    (*Sorry Caine, yours was merely the closest regular nym to mind. You can fly the Helicarrier for awhile if you want. Just no barrel rolls, or all the planes and shit will fall off.)

    not likely to do anything about it even if you noticed

    I’m most likely to just not notice. I haven’t developed the skill to track and remain current on multiple threads yet, so the majority of comments by, well, anyone tend to pass me by.

    Hence the… “unfriendly” attitudes towards those that use the shark-treatment on regulars (recently, that would be SC and SG)

    I think this is where my confusion over the hypocrisy comes in. Let’s say I tell a non-regular and a regular that they’re both wrong, but I’m just nicer about it to a regular; is that hypocritical?

  332. says

    David:

    …Well said, actually.

    I don’t think so. Why should anyone feel compelled to expend the energy to consider someone an enemy? Again, everything must be on his terms, or it’s unacceptable. Can’t be bothered.

    I am emotionally engaged with some of the Horde. Others, I’m not emotionally engaged with at all and it’s presumptuous to assume that engagement.

  333. John Morales says

    RahXephon,

    Let’s say I tell a non-regular and a regular that they’re both wrong, but I’m just nicer about it to a regular; is that hypocritical?

    Thing is, there’s history among and between regulars.

    (Theory of mind is improved via lengthy exposure)

  334. says

    David:

    But while I am at it, pancakes/crêpes are called “omelets” in the western end of Austria and probably in Switzerland…

    Ah, very different from what an “omelet” is here in ‘merica. “Omelet” is eggs, with or without various types of stuff mixed in or folded into the inside.

    RahXephon:

    Never. Even if it’s Caine*, I’d still bust someone down to deckhand for royally screwing up.

    And rightly so. I’ve been shark-tanked into the ground more than once. *shrug*

  335. John Morales says

    Caine,

    Why should anyone feel compelled to expend the energy to consider someone an enemy?

    To what wit your question, in the face of the brute fact?

    (You, for example, know full well that ॐ believes himself my enemy)

  336. says

    I think I should say that if anyone feels emotionally ambiguous about me, it is best to simply regard me as an enemy. I won’t mind, and I’d rather that people be emotionally distant from than feel betrayed by me.

    See, I was working up to a full-fledged hate-on for Mr. OM* of the ever-shifting nyms, but then he writes this, which suggests he feels some concern for the emotional well-being of others, in contrast to his insistence that he’s a bitter, spiteful, hateful person.

    Now I feel more emotionally ambiguous than ever.

    *Not really, it was more of a strong dislike. But I agree with Caine; regarding someone as an enemy means being constantly on guard around them, anticipating back-stabbing, and other highly energy-intensive things. It’s really not worth it.

  337. says

    but I’m just nicer about it to a regular; is that hypocritical?

    probably, but in other places, that would be trivial. here OTOH, a place that prides itself on it’s brutal, vicious honesty, forgoing the “brutal, vicious” part against regulars and chastising those who maybe don’t is notably hypocritical.

    FYI, I do it too. And worse yet, I’ve caught myself not saying anything when a regular does/says something wrong, when I know for a fact that I would have said something if it had been a non-regular. Catching myself at this was one of the original reasons I stopped being part of the social life on Pharyngula. I don’t enjoy being hypocritical, but unlike SG I’m entirely too conditioned to “get along” (yay for female socialization [/sarc]
    ) to always and consistently break the peace/consensus and point out fuckups

  338. old man jenkins ॐ says

    I don’t think so. Why should anyone feel compelled to expend the energy to consider someone an enemy?

    It’s just a suggestion.

    Again, everything must be on his terms, or it’s unacceptable. Can’t be bothered.

    I am emotionally engaged with some of the Horde. Others, I’m not emotionally engaged with at all and it’s presumptuous to assume that engagement.

    You didn’t read good.

    The conditional was clear: “if anyone feels emotionally ambiguous about me, [(implicit) then] it is best to simply regard me as an enemy.”

    If you aren’t emotionally engaged at all, then obvs it doesn’t matter.

  339. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    And rightly so. I’ve been shark-tanked into the ground more than once. *shrug*

    Yeah, and that’s my attitude too. We’ve already been faced on more than one occasion with this novel kind of privilege that people like JT have. JT, for example, thinks that because he’s rejected some kinds of privileges that should inoculate him from being privileged and being called out on it. I don’t want that kind of privilege when it comes to being wrong.

    I hate to use the word “humble” because of the connotations it has in my mind with anti-human religions, but I do try to stay grounded and own the fact that I screw up, a lot, and having it pointed out to me that I screwed up is the only way I’ll fix it. The last thing I wanna do is double down on Teh Stupid.

  340. says

    John:

    (You, for example, know full well that ॐ believes himself my enemy)

    Actually, I didn’t. I do now, but I fail to see why SG’s insistence on all this “we must be enemies” business should matter to anyone else. Honestly, it’s just a shitload of needless drama to me.

  341. says

    RahXephon:

    The last thing I wanna do is double down on Teh Stupid.

    I hear ya. The times I’ve been stupid here and displayed my stupid, well, I found out the extent of my stupid very quickly.

  342. John Morales says

    Jadehawk,

    FYI, I do it too. And worse yet, I’ve caught myself not saying anything when a regular does/says something wrong, when I know for a fact that I would have said something if it had been a non-regular.

    Yeah, but as you can see, the system works better with a bit of slop to ease the strain.

    (Utter zealousness ain’t pretty when it’s petty)

  343. says

    it’s presumptuous to assume that engagement

    interestingly enough, the “enemy” comment did neither assume nor presume (nor was it directed at Caine in the first place, but at those who were triggered by his commenting-style); it was a suggestion that maybe assuming and expecting SG to be untrustworthy (in re: emotional wellbeing) might help people be triggered less than assuming him to be trustworthy and be caught by surprise when he breaks that emotional trust.

    I doubt it’s useful advice precisely because it takes energy to be on-guard against someone, but potentially unhelpful advice was all that was.

  344. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    probably, but in other places, that would be trivial. here OTOH, a place that prides itself on it’s brutal, vicious honesty, forgoing the “brutal, vicious” part against regulars and chastising those who maybe don’t is notably hypocritical

    Ah. Well, I interpreted “brutal, vicious honesty” more loosely. I come from a family where passive-aggression is an art form, and to me it’s brutally honest to say “you’re wrong” straight up than couching it in vague language like “Hmm, I don’t think I agree, hrm, maybe you don’t have that right”. I hadn’t considered it as “you have to be mean”. Not that I haven’t been mean; I have, and it’s fun.

    I don’t enjoy being hypocritical, but unlike SG I’m entirely too conditioned to “get along” (yay for female socialization [/sarc]
    ) to always and consistently break the peace/consensus and point out fuckups

    I admit, part of what drove me away from Shakesville was the constant drumbeat of “you screwed up, you screwed up, you screwed up”. It didn’t feel conducive to building confidence and rapport. It’s really hard to disassociate “you’re correcting me on what I said” with “you don’t like me”, at least in my head. It’s why I hated school so much; grades became personal attacks. Maybe there’s some of that at play.

  345. old man jenkins ॐ says

    But I agree with Caine; regarding someone as an enemy means being constantly on guard around them

    Alright, well, I don’t have any better suggestions. But I suppose folks don’t need ‘em.

    +++++

    I fail to see why SG’s insistence on all this “we must be enemies” business should matter to anyone else.

    It needn’t. Really, you didn’t read good.

  346. says

    Yeah, but as you can see, the system works better with a bit of slop to ease the strain.

    that may be so, but that causes my physical unease, so I prefer to simply remove myself from the environment in which I’m likely to find myself wanting to be dishonest to avoid causing strife

  347. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    Alright, well, I don’t have any better suggestions. But I suppose folks don’t need ‘em.

    Instead of posing yourself as untrustworthy, maybe it should be more like you’re not yet worthy of trust? (That sounded more like a distinction in my head.) That’s how most people treat strangers. Just because I keep you at arm’s length doesn’t mean I think you’re gonna stab me. The latter takes active suspicion on my part rather than passive defensiveness.

  348. John Morales says

    Caine,

    Actually, I didn’t.

    Huh.

    Took me a while to get he was dead serious about it.

    In passing, I note that you strengthen David’s hypothesis about my assuming what to me is the obvious.

    (What a surprise!)

    Anyway, I’ll hereby desist from this internecine chit-chat within our echo-chamber.

    (Not that this open thread is dedicated to avoiding lurkers’ boredom or anything)

  349. Menyambal --- Sambal's sockpuppet says

    Here in midwestern USA, an omelet is beaten-up eggs gently-fried into a disc and folded over cheese and other stuff. If it doesn’t have a filling—almost always including cheese—it’s just a bad job of making scrambled eggs.

  350. Dhorvath, OM says

    Hey all. Just dropping by to say hello. Oh, and I fear others treating me lightly just because I have been around a bit, part of what makes me feel more free here is knowing that others will reign me in rather than letting me go off.

  351. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    it’s just a bad job of making scrambled eggs

    You mean there are people who do good jobs at making scrambled eggs? Mine always come out either tough and watery, or a bit raw in that questionable “will I get salmonella from this” way. That’s why I gave up and switched to poached.

  352. says

    John:

    Huh.

    It shouldn’t be a surprise on two counts. SG has spent more time in my killfile than out and when it comes to major drama (which SG seems to manufacture endlessly*), I often skim or skip over it altogether. Most of the time, drama is difficult for me, I find it draining on every level.
     
    *This is how it comes across to me, how I perceive it.

  353. John Morales says

    So much for not continuing*…

    SallyStrange, I feel I owe you the courtesy of a reply re

    Really? How would you know?

    I don’t know that it’s a general rule, but from personal experience I know it’s true in at least some cases.

    I did imply it a fact, but not that it was a necessary fact.

    * Slop. I can tolerate some.

  354. old man jenkins ॐ says

    Instead of posing yourself as untrustworthy, maybe it should be more like you’re not yet worthy of trust? (That sounded more like a distinction in my head.) That’s how most people treat strangers.

    If that works; it certainly sounds reasonable.

    +++++

    Took me a while to get he was dead serious about it.

    John, I think you might be stating it backwards. I regard you as my enemy. I am aware you don’t think of me the same way.

    +++++

    btw, SG, I’ve no idea how you managed that, but your comments get what looks like a non-functional scroll-bar when they show up in the “Recent Comments” section

    I dunno. Is it new today?

  355. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    John, I think you might be stating it backwards. I regard you as my enemy.

    Why do you regard him as an enemy? Do you think us all enemies? If so, and I’m completely genuine when I ask this, why do you keep posting here?

  356. Dhorvath, OM says

    John,
    Did I spell that incorrectly? Won’t be the first time those words confused me. Sigh.

  357. old man jenkins ॐ says

    Why do you regard him as an enemy?

    Long story. Or stories. In the midst of which there was approximately a year where we did not interact, because I begged him not to talk to me.

    Basically I have learned to expect no end to shit like this.

    Do you think us all enemies?

    No.

  358. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    Basically I have learned to expect no end to shit like this.

    Oh, yes. I read that entire thread. I wish I hadn’t, if only for the sake of my poor neurons.

  359. old man jenkins ॐ says

    no, I’ve noticed it before, but only now did it dawn on me that you’re the only one who gets the fake scroll bar.

    anyway, it looks like this

    Huh. Probably the ॐ is rendered slightly larger than the other characters on your system.

  360. John Morales says

    John, I think you might be stating it backwards.

    I think you misread me due to my usual carelessness resulting in ambiguity, because I overestimated your acumen.

    For you, I will clarify further:

    “Took me a while to get he was dead serious about it.” is what you quoted and to which you responded, apparently without invoking its scope.

    Given that ‘it’ refers to my claim, and that my claim was “that ॐ believes himself my enemy”, it should be evident by simple substitution that the entire claim is: “Took me a while to get he was dead serious about it [that ॐ believes himself my enemy].”

    This is congruent with your own claim (specifically, its first clause): “I regard you as my enemy. I am aware you don’t think of me the same way.”

  361. says

    Rey:

    “Pretend I’m A Tree & Save Me”.

    *headdesk!* Shit like that makes me want to train Darkfetus to give the finger to these assholes.

    Nutmeg:

    Do I show up for a bridal shower 15 minutes early, right on time, 15 minutes late, or some other time that I would never think of?

    On time. There’s a reason why the invite says a particular time and unless you’re helping out by providing baskets or decorations or whatever, the correct thing to do is to show up on time.

    The obsessively punctual part of my brain just went urk! when I saw “15 minutes late”. Please, don’t plan on being late, it’s rude. (Getting held up (traffic or whatever) is, of course, totally excusable.)

    As an aside: Where did we (as a culture) get this idea that it’s acceptable to be late? Do we think that we’re really so important that no one will mind when we interrupt whatever’s going on and that people are willingly going to wait for us without getting frustrated? It baffles me.

    Also: Now I want an omelette. And duck. Bah.

  362. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    Aw, you could have gone with it! “One day, The Horde™ shall reign me in as their monarch.”

    :D
    *goes and gets a sword and jumps into a pond*

  363. carlie says

    Cheese omelettes:

    There is a great episode of Dexter’s Laboratory in which he tries to learn French overnight via a record, but it skips and sticks in one place with disastrous results. What’s hilarious is that I can only find this version online, which… has been dubbed into French. So the entire joke of there only being this single French phrase is off, given that the entire language of the whole thing is French. (notably, they do fix the grammatical error that was in the original) It is almost funnier that way, though, as the French dubbing makes it rise from simple comedy to absurdist humor.

  364. says

    As an aside: Where did we (as a culture) get this idea that it’s acceptable to be late? Do we think that we’re really so important that no one will mind when we interrupt whatever’s going on and that people are willingly going to wait for us without getting frustrated? It baffles me.

    dunno about American culture, but elsewhere people will expect you to be late, so if you show up on time you’ll be early.

    :-p

  365. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    dunno about American culture, but elsewhere people will expect you to be late, so if you show up on time you’ll be early.

    Really? My instructor fall quarter was like “I’m German. BE ON TIME.”
    I suspected she was just messing with us.

  366. old man jenkins ॐ says

    John, it’s the claim which I thought was stated backwards.

    I took “ॐ believes himself my enemy” to mean “ॐ believes that I consider him my enemy”.

    But, whatever. You’ve consistently worded it that way and it’s always struck me as wrong. As long as you understand that I understand that you don’t think of me the same way, then I won’t worry about it. Good day to you.

  367. Jessa says

    RahXephon:

    You mean there are people who do good jobs at making scrambled eggs? Mine always come out either tough and watery, or a bit raw in that questionable “will I get salmonella from this” way.

    The trick for awesome scrambled eggs is low heat in the pan, and gentle turning as they cook. Too high heat leads to hard and watery. Prior to adding the eggs to the pan, nothing except a bit of salt should be added to the mixture. Tasty soft, but not undercooked, scrambled eggs every time.

  368. Dhorvath, OM, Reined Monarch says

    I do scrambled eggs a little different, med-low with butter, cover and a turn over once policy. It’s worked well for me.

  369. Jessa says

    carlie @439:

    So I’m not the only one whose mind went to “Dexter’s Laboratory” at the cheese omelet reference? Whew!

  370. says

    Jadehawk:

    dunno about American culture, but elsewhere people will expect you to be late, so if you show up on time you’ll be early.

    Urk!

    *brain grinding gears!*

    On that note (kind of), does anyone have any suggestions for a decent digital kitchen timer? I don’t need anything fancy (I’m looking for a clock with a count-down timer would be nice. Any additional features would be a bonus). I’ve been replacing them about once every six months and this is starting to get hella frustrating.

  371. says

    I usually make a veggie scramble: saute veggies with spices on medium-high heat, reduce heat when they’re cooked and stir in eggs. Scrambling the eggs on low heat is essential, otherwise they do get rubbery. Works well: easier than omelettes, delicious, and I still get in a big serving of vegetables several mornings of the week.

  372. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    I always thought being “fashionably late” was popular because being early/on time gives the impression that one does not have somewhere better to be. It’s more “dahling, I just got off the plane; Majorca was dreadful this year, absolutely dreadful. Ooh, are those Bagel Bites?!” than to be like “I made potato salad and then waited six hours until it was time to be here.”

  373. John Morales says

    ॐ:

    But, whatever. You’ve consistently worded it that way and it’s always struck me as wrong.

    You are opining on the basis of how it strikes you.

    Perhaps you could assay parsing it, and then consider whether it’s wrong, rather than going by how it strikes you.

  374. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    I don’t understand this distinction the two of you seem to agree exists between “X is Y’s enemy” and “Y is X’s enemy.”

  375. says

    Audley, I have two TruTemp digital timers/temp alert. They come with a temperature probe, you can shut off the temp alert. They’re cheap and last forever. Also, you can just keep them on your fridge, the bottoms are magnetized. There’s also a switch for fahrenheit or celsius on the bottom.

  376. ImaginesABeach says

    Spent 6 hours in the car to spend 2 hours at a graduation party (3 hours there, 3 hours back). The party was in west-central Minnesota, about 30 miles east of Professor Poopyhead’s lair (I assume he lives in or near Morris).

    It seemed like every small town has a small anti-abortion billboard as you drive into town (both directions). Do they really think that someone who is passing through on their way to get an abortion will think, “hey, that’s right. My mother chose not to have an abortion. Guess I shouldn’t do it either.” (Where do I put the question mark in that sentence?)

    Also passed a billboard that said “Your wife is hot. Get her A/C fixed.” Scratch that guy off my list of furnace repair shops.

    Lastly, I know that many people like living in a rural area, but I really would not like to live in an area where I find myself saying, “huh, that’s interesting. That cow is brown instead of black and white.”

  377. RahXephon, Habitual Misspeaker says

    On that note (kind of), does anyone have any suggestions for a decent digital kitchen timer? I don’t need anything fancy (I’m looking for a clock with a count-down timer would be nice. Any additional features would be a bonus). I’ve been replacing them about once every six months and this is starting to get hella frustrating.

    Uh…I use the microwave. Or alternatively, my phone. In a timing emergency, I do have an egg timer with a chicken on top of it that I use. That’s not digital, though.

    But yeah, assuming you have a phone that isn’t Nokia circa 2001, the clock app should have a timer feature.

    And if all that’s a no go, I’ve seen digital, magnetic little timers you can stick to the fridge at dollar stores.

  378. carlie says

    My mother always subscribed to the “if you’re not 5 minutes early, you’re late” school of punctuality. I do that as well, but have managed to let it slide more the older I get. So now I will show up to a party on time, instead of early. Maybe even 5 minutes late! For a talk or seminar or something, early is required, but for a party, I figure it’s nice to let the hosts have a couple more minutes to finish tidying up before people start beating down the door.

  379. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    Cipher, more prosaically, inimicality is not a biconditional.

    There we go. I more naturally think of it as necessarily mutual, but I suppose I can think of acceptable uses of the word that rely on it being one-directional.

  380. old man jenkins ॐ says

    John, naturally, I must be parsing it in order to decide that it’s backwards.

  381. Nutmeg says

    Audley:

    On time. There’s a reason why the invite says a particular time

    All right, thanks. The only reason I considered being late is that I wondered if it was like a dinner party. Apparently you’re supposed to show up 20 minutes late to dinner parties, because the host won’t be ready on time? But showing up at the stated time does seem like the most logical thing to do.

    I’m always early or on time for meetings, lectures, etc., but I’m never sure when to show up for a social event. I usually try to help with something so I know exactly when I’m needed, or carpool with someone who knows when it’s appropriate to show up.

    I want duck now, too. I fed most of the duck in my freezer to friends over the winter. Oops.

  382. John Morales says

    ॐ, if you’re parsing it, you’re doing it wrong.

    (This is not a subjective matter, you know!)

  383. old man jenkins ॐ says

    Clearly, you’re the one who’s wrong.

    Probably due to Coriolis effects.

  384. says

    Nutmeg,
    My feeling has always been that if the host isn’t ready when she asked me to show up, I can always pitch in and help, even if it’s not planned like that ahead of time.

    Caine,
    Thanks! A temp probe would be hella useful, too.

  385. Rey Fox says

    I pretty much always show up to social events in excess of thirty minutes to an hour late, because I don’t want to be one of the first people there.

  386. Dhorvath, OM, Reined Monarch says

    I often wait in the car or around the corner for the time to tick over. I also get to work between a quarter and a half an hour early. I hate rushing into things, so I rush to them instead.

  387. says

    Audley:

    Thanks!

    Welcome! Hell, I’ve even gotten one of them seriously wet and after giving it a bit of time to dry out, it worked just fine. They are very hard to kill, a good feature in a timer. :D

  388. says

    Will the SB Pharyngula comments be restored ? I have a full backup copy of Pharyngula from maybe one or 1.5 years ago, if it should be needed.

  389. John Morales says

    ॐ: Clearly, you’re bullshitting, and I call you on it.

    For example, I refer you to the engine to which I linked earlier:

    Input: “SGBM believes himself my enemy”


    ++++Time 0.00 seconds (214.68 total)
    Found 1 linkage (1 with no P.P. violations)
    Unique linkage. cost vector = (UNUSED=0 DIS=2 AND=0 LEN=7)

    +--------Osn--------+
    +---Ss--+---MVa--+ +-Ds-+
    | | | | |
    SGBM believes.v himself my enemy.n

    Constituent tree:

    (S (NP SGBM)
    (VP believes
    (ADVP himself)
    (NP my enemy)))

  390. John Morales says

    rorschach, my impression is that they’re being restored, but also being curated.

    PZ’s silence on this matter is notable.

    (I’m not sanguine that elisions shan’t be made :|)

  391. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    I wish I didn’t hate my paper so much. Otherwise I think I’d really like it.

  392. d(thunk) over d(MQ) = SQRRAWK! says

    Bah. Hello. Well i’m truly threadrupt.

    I went to a math competition. The math was good and wholesome– it was the coaching that was the problem; patronizing taken to extremes. I’ve blocked most of it out of my head by this point, but the culture we have allowed to develop basically forces people to protect Our Little Spawn from all dangers (including themselves) until they hit the magic age of 18. Bah. Fuck ageism.

    I think I’ll go lie down for a while.

  393. d(thunk) over d(MQ) = SQRRAWK! says

    One example: We stopped for pizza on the way back. While it was clear that I cannot eat pizza (damn olfactory system), I just sat down. Then came the eventual bothering me: “Do you want something”, or “we can order this for you if you want”, despite my continual refusing; it was almost as if my opinion does not matter, You Have To Eat Something (tell that to may brain).

    There was some small pieces of bread or whatever, until said coach came up to me and said “You know it can’t be healthy for you. I can order a burger or something.” Nice food-shaming there.

    My opinions don’t count, amirite? I’m too young to *shudder* make my own decisions.

  394. old man jenkins ॐ says

    John, I agree with the machine parser.

    I just don’t think you understand what it would mean for me to believe myself your enemy.

    I don’t believe myself your enemy. I believe you my enemy.

    Amusing as this is, I feel bad for you; it’s not your fault that you’re upside down.

  395. d(thunk) over d(MQ) = SQRRAWK! says

    P.S. And mind you, this was only one instance. While this was particularly egregious, this attitude was everywhere.

  396. d(thunk) over d(MQ) = SQRRAWK! says

    Please excuse my bad grammar; I don’t do it well when I’m shaken.

  397. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @nifty, #348:

    I am so glad you are going to law school because you are going to rock it!!! Thank you for your posts on Consitution vs ballot measure law. I learned things I did not have firmly fixed in my head before. (I’m a new citizen).

    Thanks. It’s nice to be thought of as showing promise. Although I research and write on these topics, my teaching has been in other areas (the school I was at had a large and talented PoliSci dept: they sure as heck didn’t need me, I’d have been seriously underqualified). But I do have a better handle on things than people who don’t study the constitution and, occasionally, that has even included the odd lawyer who doesn’t practice in an area that emphasizes inter-governmental relationships and/or who (for whatever reason) hasn’t given thought to issues of the constitution and political ethics. I’ve even been mistaken for a lawyer (which, if it seemed like I might be giving legal advice, would have been dangerous – fortunately it was always in a safe context, like ranting over dinner. Also, it mostly happens with lawyers, or at least it’s mostly lawyers that make the assumption out loud).

    Shorter me: I know I know stuff, because other people have said so, but I have what I would call “actual expertise” in other areas and in these areas I just have “substantial knowledge”.

    Thus it’s a little scary to go from a place/discipline where I can truly call myself an expert to one I have a lot to learn. Also, apart from your kind words about my promise, I’m super-glad to have given folk a better understanding of pretty much anything, but especially things as important as constitutional law.

    You say you’re a new citizen? Cool! Of the US or somewhere else that has a constitution sufficiently similar for this stuff to be useful (which includes a number of former Brit colonies???

    Congrats on the citizenship. If things go well in my relationship, I may be gaining new citizenship as well. Here’s to finding our places in the world…

  398. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    cipher:

    I wish I didn’t hate my paper so much. Otherwise I think I’d really like it.

    So. Much. This.

    I can’t count the number of times I’ve thought this about my own work.

  399. says

    John:

    my impression is that they’re being restored, but also being curated.

    I don’t know about that, seeing that the monument thread at ERV is restored and unchanged. A majority of threads at Pharyngula are monsters, which might be part of the problem.

  400. d(thunk) over d(MQ) = SQRRAWK! says

    @ Many.

    Oh time. I am a *complete* time freak. When I was younger, I would always be confused– “the party started at 7; now it’s 7:30 and no one’s here yet”. While I got the reason for that time, I still have a pressing need to be punctual, to know what time it is currently (to the second). I guess it’s fine :p

  401. Dhorvath, OM, Reined Monarch says

    Old Man Jenkins,
    Seems pretty awful to me. I didn’t like Bluharmony either, but I get the overlap as being one that has impacted her life. Simple things.

  402. d(thunk) over d(MQ) = SQRRAWK! says

    Caine: Yes, true. I did a good job of fat-shaming myself for a long time.

  403. says

    Regarding time, I’m the punctual type. I was taught to be punctual and that not being punctual was rude. However, when hanging out with members of my tribe, that goes out the window. Punctuality is a concept not embraced by Indians in general.

  404. says

    Jennifer, any time someone uses calm down in a post, I know it’s weapons-grade bullshit. I note that Crip Dyke’s nym came in for disapproval as well.

    Pharyngula based nyms often don’t go over well other places, which is why I switched back to my standard, because I commented at Jason’s blog today.

  405. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    Jennifer,
    *heavy sigh*
    Looks like someone’s confused about what “reclaiming” is.

  406. John Morales says

    rorschach, the output of that which I liked to in my @459 as evidence outside of my own claim for the parsing of my locution.

    The tags refer to syntactic elements (terminology for which may differ on different sites*), the nesting level indicates dependencies.

    * But which are pretty evident; e.g. VP refers to a verb phrase.

    ॐ,

    I don’t believe myself your enemy. I believe you my enemy.

    Hm, yes. That was my understanding, and that is a proper way to express it; hence, I admit I was wrong in my expression, hence I hereby correct
    “ॐ believes himself my enemy”
    to
    “ॐ believes me to be his enemy”.

    (Feel the love!)

  407. d(thunk) over d(MQ) = SQRRAWK! says

    Yes; never mind the rank bigotry– Today, one student was complaining about how affirmative action hurts the poor white people (waaah). And of course, yesterday, one coach told the only woman on the team something to the effect of “You should be smiling”. *Big wet facepalm*.

  408. Cipher, OM, MQ says

    Although honestly, “fucktoy” being one of the worse words for me (don’t worry, Crip Dyke, I don’t notice it in your nym anymore), that very confused post Jennifer linked to did make me wonder if I should start using it in my nym for a while to see if it would help take the sting out.

  409. says

    ‘Tis #294:

    Since you’re an asshole, while I might (and that’s MIGHT) be wrong about a detail, my general impression that you get your jollies from berating people who transgress your personal ideals of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. still stands.

    I’ll admit to lack of evidence when you apologize to me for claiming that I was supporting Islamophobes by drawing Mohammed on a particular day. Deal?

    Welcome to the club, ‘Tis. What’s your poison?

  410. says

    Caine:

    Hell, I’ve even gotten one of them seriously wet and after giving it a bit of time to dry out, it worked just fine.

    That is a big part of my problem– I keep timers on the fan hood above my stove* so they end up being steamed.

    I just double-checked the timer I picked at Target today and it’s the Taylor brand too, so maybe I won’t have to take your advice. ;)

    RX,

    But yeah, assuming you have a phone that isn’t Nokia circa 2001, the clock app should have a timer feature.

    I did this for a while and I had a couple of problems:
    1) my phone’s timer feature is clumsy to use and not very well designed
    and
    2) it’s a touch screen smart phone, which makes it difficult to use while baking without getting raw ingredients all over where I put my face.

    SALMONELLA! EW!

    *It’s is not at all convenient when I’m cooking to keep them on my fridge (well, until they crap out and then they become fridge magnets) because of how my kitchen is set up. It’s long and narrow.