A fine time in Morris »« Episode CCCXIII: We’ve known we’ve been warming for a long time

An innovative legal strategy

David Coppedge, the creationist who was fired from JPL and is currently trying to sue them, has submitted his legal brief as plaintiff in the case. It is…bizarre. It includes a screenplay in which Coppedge imagines a dialog between a couple of JPL staff — a dialog in which he was not present, which basically makes it a work of fiction.

Are court cases often resolved on the basis of creative writing?

This kind of crankery really seems to be part of a trend: there was Kent Hovind’s “subornation of false muster” defense, Bill Buckingham and Alan Bonsell lying on the witness stand in the Dover trial, the prolonged whining by Freshwater, accused of burning a cross into a student’s arm. Creationism seems to draw in the wackiest court cretins; I guess it’s not surprising, given that you have to be a bit off to fall for creationism in the first place.

Comments

  1. says

    Well, these people take fantasy for reality for a living, right? It’s not surprising that they extend it to the legal system.

  2. Brownian says

    Isn’t this exactly the kind of thing that the term “I rest my case” is meant to respond to?

    “Seriously Your Honor, you should see the fifty-page novella he wrote when we asked him to wipe the inside of the microwave after he finished heating up his Lean Cuisine. And I don’t even want to to think about his ‘I Only Tinkled: Jesus Didn’t Wash His Hands Either’ one-man show after we had the public health nurse come in and give a talk on hygiene.”

  3. wygrif says

    It’s a business strategy, not a legal one. Basically it goes like this (1) file a claim that’ll sound good in a soundbyte to moral-majority types that is (2) so frivolous that it’ll be tossed out as quickly as possible so you can (3) get an in for the “persecuted” christian media market.

  4. ambassadorfromverdammt says

    Maybe its the old “Too Whackaloon For The Insanity Defence Defence”.

  5. screechymonkey says

    It appears that the Coppedge is trying to mock the JPL’s allegations that Coppedge behaved improperly in the workplace. Hence all the sarcastic references to a co-worker being a minister in the “metaphysical interfaith church” who was supposedly horrified that Coppedge “made” her borrow a DVD that contained (gasp!) religion.

    I have great affection for the practice of sarcasm, but it really has to be used sparingly (if at all) in court. And it strikes me as especially dumb for a plaintiff to attempt to refute allegations that he was boorish and disruptive in his proselytizing by being dismissive of his co-workers’ sensibilities.

  6. MetzO'Magic says

    And I don’t even want to to think about his ‘I Only Tinkled: Jesus Didn’t Wash His Hands Either’ one-man show after we had the public health nurse come in and give a talk on hygiene.

    Made my day, Brownian. Class. Sheer class.

  7. says

    The screenplay part – aside from being ridiculous in this context – makes him look awful. I know nothing about the case, but it appears to me from reading just that bit that he was using the workplace to proselytize and push his religious and political views on his coworkers even when they’ve said they’re not interested. He doesn’t even just say the DVD was about religion, but basically admits that it’s heavy-handed and repetitive. He then himself mentions a sticky note that clearly makes it appear that he had a colleague-proselytization list he mistakenly gave one of them, and isn’t clever enough to contrive a story about that (and apparently doesn’t recognize the need). The bit about her sobbing and inability to address the situation comes across as quite sexist.

    In short, I hope he continues in this vein. :)

  8. Larry says

    Of course, this is taking place in LA where everybody, including the guy who cuts your lawn or the grocery clerk down at the Quikimart, is out trying to sell their own screenplay.

    Give the guy +5 for initiative but a minus bazillion for wrong place, wrong time.

  9. kevinalexander says

    The screenplay thing is pure genius. Kirk Cameron will play him in the film.

  10. says

    I wonder if Mr. Coppedge realizes that when a case is thrown out as frivolous, the losing party almost always has to pay the legal fees of the prevailing party. I guess if he doesn’t know that now, he’ll find out soon enough.

  11. jnorris says

    As you point out Justin (#14), he will find out soon and then he will be persecuted yet again. Gonna play big time on the tent revival circuit.

  12. Just_A_Lurker says

    This trend has been going on for a while, here’s the cause:
    Budget Cuts Risk More Mentally Ill On Streets

    Oh, for fucks sake! Seriously? Stop with this shit please. Making fun of this ridiculousness does not need to include ableism or put down real issues.

  13. Ogvorbis (no relation to the Ogg family) says

    Where do people get the idea that insulting the court, insulting the judge, making a mockery of the (admittedly flawed) system, and basically being an ass will somehow make the judge more sympathetic to your argument?

  14. says

    From my rather limited experiences in US courtrooms one of the main things that was impressed on me is that courtroom staff, and the judge in particular, take their jobs very seriously. I haven’t seen any judges that were bothered by a bit of courtroom humor but they all seemed to prefer that any sarcasm comes from the bench and not the other way around.

  15. mikmik says

    Just_A_Lurker

    This trend has been going on for a while, here’s the cause:
    Budget Cuts Risk More Mentally Ill On Streets

    Oh, for fucks sake! Seriously? Stop with this shit please. Making fun of this ridiculousness does not need to include ableism or put down real issues.

    I’m starting to get pissed at the ultra-sensitivity of some folks around here, ffs, with political correctness.
    I, me, Mike Laing, am one of the mentally ill that ended up on the street from cutbacks, and I thought that was funny as hell.

    In fact, I’ve known born again christians that had mental breakdowns becauase they were so neurotic and uptight and removed from reality.

  16. says

    … In short, I hope he continues in this vein…

    Seriously, it really is like he’s trying to lose.

    Maybe there’s some Guinness record he’s looking to nail? That’s the angle? Somewhere in ‘quickest dismissal’ or ‘longest facepalm induced in sitting judge’?

  17. Just_A_Lurker says

    with political correctness.

    That’s a telling phrase.

    I, me, Mike Laing, am one of the mentally ill that ended up on the street from cutbacks, and I thought that was funny as hell.

    You don’t get to dictate what is offensive to other people, cupcake. You aren’t the only one with mental illness dealing with homelessness so fuck off.

    I don’t care if you thought it was funny. I didn’t. I was offended because I have fucking been there and don’t find a fucking thing funny with people using that shit for gags. People are suffering and dying because of that shit. Do you not see how the problem with ableism?

  18. Cyranothe2nd says

    You guys, Coppedge’s screenplay is seriously the most hilarious thing I have ever read.

    Morning at the office. WEISENFELDER moves urgently through the corridors. Out of breath, reaches CHIN’s office.

    CHIN
    Hi, Margaret. What’s up? You look like you’ve just seen a ghost.

    WEISENFELDER
    I saw a ghost alright. A holy ghost!

  19. says

    Morning at the office. WEISENFELDER moves urgently through the corridors. Out of breath, reaches CHIN’s office.

    CHIN
    Hi, Margaret. What’s up? You look like you’ve just seen a ghost.

    WEISENFELDER
    I saw a ghost alright. A holy ghost!

    The next step: hire Jack Chick to do the storyboards.

  20. says

    This trend has been going on for a while, here’s the cause:
    Budget Cuts Risk More Mentally Ill On Streets

    Seriously. Please stop using mental illness as an insult. It is stigmatizing and demeaning to people who suffer from mental health problems. (I say this as someone with bipolar disorder; I’m fortunate enough to have access to good treatment, but not everyone is so fortunate.)

    And trivializing the very real problem of homelessness among the mentally ill is not particularly funny or clever, either.

    ffs, with political correctness.

    Some while ago, I proposed that there should be a new law of the internet: “If you can’t defend your position without accusing everyone else in the discussion of “political correctness”, you lose the argument.”

    Whining about “political correctness” is the favourite tactic of Daily Mail readers and casual bigots who don’t like being called out on their bigotry. Using the phrase just makes you look like an idiot.

    I, me, Mike Laing, am one of the mentally ill that ended up on the street from cutbacks, and I thought that was funny as hell.

    This does not mean that you speak for all mentally ill people, or that you get to decide when other people should and should not feel hurt. You do not get to dismiss other people’s feelings with a wave of your hand.

  21. coyotenose says

    You don’t get to dictate what is offensive to other people, cupcake.

    It cuts both ways. You don’t get to dictate anyone’s coping mechanisms or language, cupcake.

    That said, it’s an old joke that was never clever and makes too light of suffering.

    THAT said, he’s correct in that there is a growing trend here of attempts to dictate what other people can and cannot say. Given that we can come up with reasons why most supposedly neutral insults are not actually neutral, could someone produce a concise list of what language they think is appropriate and why, and be prepared to address any concerns others have with said list?

    Maybe if we eliminate the unnecessary verbs “stab” and cut” in favor of “knife” which can serve as both noun and associated verb, we might begin to move things in the proper direction…

    Interestingly to me, there WAS a point to the joke, whether or not he got it: if mental illness was destigmatized, more mentally ill religious people would be diagnosed and not have their symptoms willfully overlooked in deference to their beliefs, and at the same time there would be more funding made available to treat them.

  22. says

    mikmik:

    I’m starting to get pissed at the ultra-sensitivity of some folks around here, ffs, with political correctness.

    You’re free to leave, Cupcake. Actually, in light of your deliberate obtuseness and assholism, I have a nice, maggot-covered, decaying porcupine all warmed up for you.

    It’s not political correctness and if you had half a brain cell, you’d know that. It’s being aware of other people and how our use of language can easily be used to marginalize those people who are already marginalized in society. This is also known as being aware of your own privilege and having an idea of what life is like for others, rather than having your nose stuck firmly in your own navel.

    I, me, Mike Laing, am one of the mentally ill that ended up on the street from cutbacks, and I thought that was funny as hell.

    Good for you. You are, of course, free to find anything you like to be funny, however, you are not free to dictate what is funny to others. Also, having a mental illness does not give you a “Hey, I can be an offensive douchetart!” free card.

    In fact, I’ve known born again christians that had mental breakdowns becauase they were so neurotic and uptight and removed from reality.

    And? You seem to be under the impression this gives you leave to be an asshole. It doesn’t. Here at Pharyngula, we’ve worked hard to create a safe space. That means no gender-based slurs, cracks or what you might find funny jokes. Same goes for race-based and ableist-based slurs, cracks or what you might find funny jokes.

    Shorter version: you’re being an asspimple. Stop it.

  23. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    Given that we can come up with reasons why most supposedly neutral insults are not actually neutral, could someone produce a concise list of what language they think is appropriate and why, and be prepared to address any concerns others have with said list?

    Oh, fuck off. You think this is anything other than completely transparent? Yeah, we get that you’re really put off you can’t call people bitches or retards here. Yeah, it’s just like we’re the fucking word police. That’s why we have such a hard time coming up with insults. You intellectually lazy, putrid slime.

  24. Just_A_Lurker says

    J_A_L, you keep climbing up my OM nom list. Stay ferocious.

    OMFG I think I’m going to faint. This is my second personal feel awesome moment from this site today.

    hehe I am deliriously happy right now. =) Thank you.

  25. JohnnieCanuck says

    Douche.

    I am left wondering why that isn’t considered misogynistic, hereabouts. To my ear, it’s the association with the cleaning of vaginas that gives it the power to insult.

    At the moment, the only non-gendered, etc. insult I can come up with is ‘asshole’. Almost everyone has one. Then again maybe it would bother those who have had a colostomy.

    Maybe there simply are no epithets that can’t be construed to be unfair to someone or something. If the slime in question were living then that would be speciesist, no?

  26. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    I am left wondering why that isn’t considered misogynistic, hereabouts. To my ear, it’s the association with the cleaning of vaginas that gives it the power to insult.

    Douching is physically harmful, and the practice is fundamentally misogynistic, being marketed as something women need in order to be pleasing to men, based on the toxic assumption that there is something inherently dirty about the vagina.

  27. chigau (違う) says

    JohnnieCanuck
    “douche” is an insult because it indicates something useless and unnecessary.

  28. says

    JohnnieCanuck:

    Douche.

    I am left wondering why that isn’t considered misogynistic, hereabouts.

    Douching was a male idea and invention, and for generations, women were told that of course, they must douche, otherwise it was icky for the men. Douching is physically dangerous and it’s absolutely unnecessary.

    Douching was a terribly anti-woman practice designed to make women feel ashamed about their natural body odor. Repeated douching can wash away the lining of the uterus, making it not just pointless but dangerous. Douching can lead to infections and increases the risk of ectopic pregnancies and pelvic inflammatory disease.

    Douche and douchebag make very fitting insults in certain situations. Think about it.

  29. fatsplenda says

    I work at JPL. The scuttlebutt about this guy was that it really, truly had nothing to do with the guy’s religion. He was a poor worker, apparently. That it was his proselytizing that was getting in the way of his work is purely secondary to the matter. He started getting demoted because he was a poor performer. That’s it.

    At a place like JPL it’s easy to say that we’re all left-leaning, science-oriented folk — Carl Sagan walked these halls, ffs — and any hint of religion might “scare” us. Hardly the truth: we are indeed science-oriented but religion is hardly ever a topic simply because it’s totally orthogonal to our work. It’s simply a non-issue… until guys like Coppedge make it one.

    I work with quite a few religious folks here and it doesn’t interfere one ounce with their work. This guy was an exception.

  30. tuxedocartman says

    Are court cases often resolved on the basis of creative writing?

    “If the glove does not fit, you must acquit.”

    So… sometimes?

    (Remember boys and girls, the preview button is your friend!)

  31. Just_A_Lurker says

    You need to exercise your imagination.

    Or just lurk moar. I can’t think of a good one but daaaaamn this place has a fuckton of insults to use. Most of my insults come from this place now.

    *random thought why the fuck do I keep mistyping insults as insluts? grrr stupid brain >.<
    ** I so need to google how to do line breaks and paragraph indents with html to use on here.

  32. says

    I think it would be most telling if Coppedge had his emails between himself and creationist organizations brought in as evidence. There’s probably the billowing plume, rather than just the smoking gun, that shows he was put up to it by some halfwit creationist stink-tank that thinks that any noise-making against a mean old scientific establishment is good for the cause, à la “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.”

    We now have a caustic combination of not just liars for Jebus, but bellyaching litigants for Jebus as well. It’s so disheartening that people aren’t abandoning religion after all these displays of wavering belief obviously indicating they think that they have to take action for their inactive/non-existent deity. God couldn’t make JPL believe, so we better sue!

    To use a useful quote from Louis:

    “FUUUUUUUUUUUCK!”

  33. Moggie says

    From the OP, I assumed that Coppedge is representing himself, but no, it appears he has an attorney, William Becker. So either this seasoned legal professional thought the screenplay was a good idea, or Coppedge insisted on it, over Becker’s objections. Probably the latter: Coppedge doesn’t sound like someone who takes advice well.

  34. DLC says

    Holy Crap. No, literally . . . Holy Crap. A complete twit for a client, an apparently brainless attorney and a screenplay for a brief? There should be a civil term judge laughing his ass off somewhere. “Your Honor, I object to this entire line of questioning as being Irrelevant, Argumentative and Fucking Stupid!

  35. julietdefarge says

    “Coppedge serves on the board of Illustra Media, which has produced videos such as Unlocking the Mystery of Life and The Privileged Planet—the very DVDs that his employer has tried to suppress at JPL. ”
    Most workplaces don’t allow you to push your product, whether it’s baskets, cupcakes, or woo-based.
    An interesting lineup of pro ID articles here:
    http://www.discovery.org/a/14511

  36. says

    Our Gracious Host asks:

    “Are court cases often resolved on the basis of creative writing?”

    No. They’re always resolved on the basis of bad writing. Creativity is actively discouraged; it’s not considered proper legal writing without at least one, and preferably more than one, citation to authority for even the most trivial propositions. This is not an exaggeration: There was an extraordinarily powerful-in-the-bar-and-judiciary judge around here, renowned for his lack of a sense of humor, who insisted on citations to the number of days in particular months when dealing with interest calculations of less than $4.

    Basically, in legal writing, what you have to say is worthless unless someone else has said it before. In writing. In the correct, excrutiatingly anal-retentive citation format (that even regulates the varying number of spaces after periods… depending further upon the kind of document).

  37. Louis says

    McCthulu, #43,

    That’s “FUUUUUUUUUUUCK!™”.

    And now you owe me royalties to the tune of £500. I do not take personal cheques.

    ____________

    To Mikmik, Coyotenose and others,

    The complaint about using mental illnesses (or the imputation of them) as insults has sweet fuck all to do with offence. I am afraid I have to disagree with my esteemed colleagues regarding that aspect of the matter.

    I’ve got a “bit of a tan”, I’m “a bit dusky” if you catch my meaning, and being called a Paki or a Dago or a Wop or even, on a good day, a Nigger (or some derivative, one charming teacher at school used to refer to me as “that Nignog) never offended me. Not once. Offence and political correctness are complete red herrings.

    What I objected, and object, to is the continual “othering” of people unlike oneself (or even like oneself in cases of remarkable irony). In a society like mine, people are disadvantaged by virtue of their skin colour, to varying degrees of course, and it’s the contributions to that inequality I object to. Using racial slurs is just one of many ways to make a tiny contribution to the cultural trope that it is okay to treat people of different ethnicity to one’s own in a worse manner than one treats people of one’s own ethnicity.

    The analogous thing applies to mental illness. Oh and btw, trust me I am bad at this myself, I have to TRY not to call people “nutters” or refer to the {ahem} less than fulsomely splendid mental characteristics of creationists as “retarded”. I find this difficult and often fuck up, just so you know this is not sanctimony, I really am no holier than anyone.

    The stigma associated with mental illness is ENORMOUS. You should already know this. Take the aforementioned “nutter”, an epithet thrown at people, it’s used as a genuine ad hominem (i.e. not merely an insult). The argument behind it runs that this person is mentally ill, therefore their word cannot be trusted, what they are saying is, by virtue of their mental illness alone, untrue. How much more logically invalid can you get?

    The attitude that discrediting people in this illogical way is okay is contributory to the atmosphere of stigma that surrounds mental illness. It helps to reinforce the attitudes that people with mental illnesses are not proper people, or nasty, or scary, or not to be worked with, or not trustworthy or… All things that exist. They stop people getting jobs, they reinforce prejudice.

    So it’s not the “offensiveness” of the comments I object to, they don’t offend me, they’re just wrong. Factually and morally. If you think that racism is wrong morally, or sexism or homophobia, then so is this aiding the stigmatisation of mental illness. And for the same reasons. That this sort of behaviour contributes to the culture of prejudice is well demonstrated and factual. So why make these comments? That someone’s nose is out of joint because of them is a red herring.

    Also, when typing into a comment box on a blog, one has the time to at least consider one’s words a bit. We don’t always do it obviously, the length of my posts attests to that! I never have enough time to make them shorter! You can delete the words, rephrase them, check them before you post. More than that, when discussing something online, why people get pissed off with muppetry and expressions indistinguishable from, or contributory to, a culture of bigotry, is because that is what we can do something about here. I can’t chase down George Zimmerman and shoot him in “self defence” thus making some kind of ironic point. I’m on the wrong side of the Atlantic for starters, and I lack the desire. But in the comment box of a blog I can be responsible for my own stupid comments and ask that other people try (at least) to recognise their own responsibility to not actually perpetuate things they claim to oppose with their comments.

    It doesn’t matter if you’ve experienced prejudice if you perpetrate it by some action, your experience isn’t a magic get out of jail free card. You still perpetrate that prejudice by that actions. Deal with it.

    And stop being a bunch of cuntyniggernutterfags* okay?

    Louis

    * Do I really need to explain this?

  38. Louis says

    As for Coppedge’s fantasy based legal strategy, this is standard practise for the creationists, as noted. It’s one of the things that they just do. Don’t the religious apologists and various accomodationists get that this is one of the reasons we Gnus are so stompy? The religious chappies of this kidney actually believe their own PR. Seriously. THEY BELIEVE THIS SHIT! You expect them to act differently?

    Louis

  39. says

    Maybe in the Los Angeles Basin, moviemaking has become such a part of the culture that now all recounting of past events is conveyed in the medium of a screenplay. Sort of like “Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra”.

  40. says

    Caine, The Impossible Woman writes:
    obtuseness and assholism

    “obtuseness” is ableist language, implying that the person is not as intelligent as they could be.
    “assholism” (while poorly constructed) appears to be intended to mock those who enjoy anal sex or to make people less comfortable with their anal genitalia.

    Maybe you should rethink your use of language.

    Oh, and “cupcake” might be insulting to someone who has weight/body self-image issues, or food obsessions or allergies.

    Here’s a hypothesis: it’s impossible to use insulting language toward a stranger, without also insulting other non-involved strangers. If you’re going to use abusive language at all, you’re going to confront the dilemma that you are implicitly abusing non-involved parties that are equally sensitive about the term you use. For example, someone deeply concerned that they are an “asshole” will feel a little pang of sympathetic anxiety anytime that word is directed at another poster, until they are able to comfort themselves by determining that they are not a target.

  41. says

    At the moment, the only non-gendered, etc. insult I can come up with is ‘asshole’.

    Well, the fact that you find it insulting means it’s inappropriate to use, because there are other bystanders who may feel concerned that they are “assholes” when you use that term against a specific target. After all, when you call someone “asshole” you are implying that they are nasty and smelly and a source of shit, etc. That also might be a traumatic bit of mockery for a person who was born with an anal deformity, or who has had surgery, or who has to wear diapers, etc.

  42. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    Marcus Ranum #51 & 52

    Don’t try satire and sarcasm, you’re not particularly good at it.

  43. spector567 says

    Louis you may think Marcus Ranum is being silly but the connection is valid. This all started because of ONE SENTENCE. By one person who made a quick comment. Welcome to the internet. You are going to meet people that occasionally offend you purposely or not. You either spend hours stressing over it or you ignore them. Life is too short. By same token should you spend hours thinking about every comment you make? I bet you’ve pissed people off too but they moved on.

    I’m not trying to dismiss you but if you stress over this at every drop of the hat it doesn’t bolster your complaint…. It marginalizes it. People are already starting to ignore you and dismiss you. It’s far better to wait till you actually have a lock solid comment than jumping at any and every comment on the matter.

  44. says

    Don’t try satire and sarcasm, you’re not particularly good at it.

    Don’t try telling people what to do, when you know they’re just going to ignore you.

  45. says

    You are going to meet people that occasionally offend you purposely or not. You either spend hours stressing over it or you ignore them.

    No.

    If people just ignore sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist and other marginalizing language, do you know what happens? Other people get the message that these words and phrases are fine, and that they have social approval to go on using them to demean and degrade people. And the perpetuation of prejudice continues. If someone calls Ann Coulter “Mann Coulter”, or calls a woman a “bitch”, or calls a political opponent “retarded” or “schizo”, or uses some other slur, and people just ignore it and carry on with the conversation, that person gets a message that it is ok to use slurs like this, and that no one will criticize them for it.

    The way to break this cycle is to call it out. It is not funny or clever to use language which contributes to prejudice against already-marginalized groups. We need to speak out against it.

  46. says

    This “screenplay” gambit tells you pretty much everything you need to know about Coppedge and his lawsuit. I have no idea what actually went on from day to day at JPL, but the fact he thinks this is an appropriate way to conduct a court case (and FSM knows what his lawyer was thinking to allow it!) indicates to high probability that he’s completely clueless how normal communication between adults is supposed to work, that he’s not just an otherwise-normal guy with some off-mainstream opinions who would argue politely with his colleagues over lunch. I can well believe that he was both difficult to work with, and a performance problem.

  47. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    Don’t try telling people what to do, when you know they’re just going to ignore you.

    If you were going to ignore me then you would not have replied to my comment.

  48. says

    spector567:

    People are already starting to ignore you and dismiss you.

    Oh, really? You can’t seem to figure out who it is you’re responding to, you might want to work on that one. Both ‘Tis and Louis are OMs and are far from being ignored or dismissed by the commentariat.

    Now, who the fuck are you, Cupcake? Any particular reason we should care about what you think?

  49. Louis says

    Spector567,

    Oh well, I’ll be ignored and dismissed then. I’ll cope. Somehow. In the fullness of time.

    Just for your delectation, I’m not stressed. I thought I’d done a reasonable job of calmly setting out why I didn’t find any specific comment offensive, and in fact that offensiveness is a red herring. It’s not the offensiveness or otherwise of a comment that bothers me, it’s the effect such things can and do have on pre-existing cultural prejudices.

    And I don’t sweat for hours over every comment (as the error count will tell you). In fact I made that very point. Reading for comprehension, it’s not your strong suit now is it? Thanks for your unasked for advice, but I’m good.

    Louis

  50. Just_A_Lurker says

    Louis you may think Marcus Ranum is being silly but the connection is valid. This all started because of ONE SENTENCE. By one person who made a quick comment. Welcome to the internet. You are going to meet people that occasionally offend you purposely or not.

    Yes, there are trolls. The policy here on trolls is to rip them to shreds to keep our fangs nice and shiny. Other places ignore them and it becomes a chilly climate. Don’t know what that is? Look it the fuck up. Obviously, you haven’t been around enough to even know the policy on trolls. You want a place you can be a bigot and use that language? GTFO. This is a safe place for people. They have kept it safe for me from misogynist cupcakes, MRA and rape apologist so I am going to do what I can to make sure others are safe.

    There is the 3 comment rule but for something that is so blantely ablist no punches are pulled. None. Not allowed. Just like sexist and racist slurs. No excuse.

    You either spend hours stressing over it or you ignore them. Life is too short. By same token should you spend hours thinking about every comment you make? I bet you’ve pissed people off too but they moved on.

    I honestly think you should think about your comments more. And if this is the case why don’t you just move the fuck on?
    People here have vented about assholes online or in real life. Both are very fucking real and effect real people. Online community are just as viable as real ones.

    I’m not trying to dismiss you

    Here comes the contradiciton…

    but if you stress over this at every drop of the hat it doesn’t bolster your complaint…. It marginalizes it. People are already starting to ignore you and dismiss you. It’s far better to wait till you actually have a lock solid comment than jumping at any and every comment on the matter.

    And there it is.
    It is not marginalizing it because these are people already marginalized and put down upon by society. There have always been a few people that poo poo about not using bigoted language. Guess where they are now? Not here unless they shut the fuck up, took the criticism and stopped.

    Just fucking leave. No one here is going to just let it slide. It will be an argument every time.

  51. Just_A_Lurker says

    Markus

    Caine, The Impossible Woman writes:
    obtuseness and assholism

    Markus, for fucks sake. Whenever someone calls out a word that isn’t generally seen as offensive or isn’t known, people listen and stop using it. There have been those kinds of discussions here.

    You seriously suck at satire and sarcasm.

  52. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    Well, the fact that you find it insulting means it’s inappropriate to use, because there are other bystanders who may feel concerned that they are “assholes” when you use that term against a specific target.

    You know, when I don’t understand an argument that other people are using, I generally either try to correct the situation or keep my mouth shut. It would really embarrass me to badly imitate an argument I didn’t fully understand. So I don’t get it. Don’t these assholes experience shame? Or is it just Dunning-Kruger again?

  53. Louis says

    Cassandra Caligaria, #63,

    Well I’m with you on the Dunning-Kruger thing. The posts Marcus Ranum made were so orthogonal to anything I said, and already dealt with by what I and others wrote, it’s not worth a whole lot of effort to deal with them.

    What’s worrying me now is just how HYSTERICAL I am being spending HOURS composing posts on these subjects. {Shakes head} There must be something deeply wrong with me. Probably something remotely diagnosable over the internet I wouldn’t doubt. Ah well. I’ll just have another beer and a bit of a think about it.

    Well, that or mock something for shits and giggles.

    Probably the last one.

    Louis

  54. says

    Louis:

    What’s worrying me now is just how HYSTERICAL I am being spending HOURS composing posts on these subjects. {Shakes head} There must be something deeply wrong with me. Probably something remotely diagnosable over the internet I wouldn’t doubt.

    Hysterical? Oh, I know what your trouble happens to be. I don’t know how to break this to you, Louis, but you have a…uterus!!1! Sorry, man.

  55. Louis says

    Caine, #66,

    A UTERUS!!!!?!

    Oh noes, doesn’t that make me a non-person who is not allowed to have proper thoughts like proper people? I have to be controlled otherwise I might run around having abortions or eating apples or something. Does this mean my Important Man Fee-Fees are no longer Important? Do I get special dispensation on tampons or something?

    Oh wait, I know. I’m worrying my pretty little head about nothing.

    {Flicks hair}

    {Giggles}

    Louis

  56. Louis says

    Caine,

    Now that my {ahem} credentials have been established, how do I go about becoming a ball-breaking feminazi she-bitch hell bent on oppressing poor poor men and not taking responsibility for anything whilst manipulating innocent men and making false rape allegations whilst having abortions and far too many babies which I am only having to get child benefit from the state like a proper welfare queen?

    Do I get bonus points by wearing short skirts deliberately to tease men but then never having sex with them or having sex with the wrong men and therefore being responsible for my rape, which is obviously false at the same time as being my fault for being simultaneously a filthy, filthy whore and an uptight prudish harridan?

    I mean, I’ve heard we women are good at multitasking, but that’s an awful lot to get right first go. And the heels! Holy shit, the HEELS! I am really not pulling this walk off in these.

    Louis

  57. says

    Oh, it’s easy. You simply have to have a brain and be unafraid to use it. The rest is all cake. Oh and yes, bonus points are automatic. You get insta-points for wearing flats instead of heels, as that means you aren’t doing enough to make yourself all pretty for the menz.

  58. chigau (違う) says

    Louis
    Just today sometime on someother thread you looked in your pants and made a rather different declaration.
    Care to explain?

  59. Louis says

    Caine,

    FLATS! Thank my cold, dark, man hating heart! This brain thing, I reckon I can do it, I was doing okayish as a man, but now I’m a woman I find myself thinking about puppies and kittens and babies. And strangely Martha Stewart. Not sure why that is. Apparently I need to macramé something, make a family dinner for thirty, take a beating, stand by my man, and get paid a whole lot less.

    I think I’m getting the hang of it though. The most important thing is to be quiet apparently. I’m getting some very strong messages about that. Apparently I should shut up and speak when spoken to. I don’t feel very good about it, but something tells me I should shut up even more about that. Hmmmm it’s weird, it’s like there’s this wide set of cultural assumptions and unstated rules I suddenly have to follow or else it makes me a bad person. They’re not the same as they were before, it feels colder too. Not sure why.

    Oh it must be one of those things that men are better at figuring out, like maths and science.

    Louis

  60. Louis says

    Chigau, #71,

    I have been granted honorary lady status by accidentally getting HYSTERICAL and spending HOURS on being POLITICALLY CORRECT. Caine tells me my being HYSTERICAL means I’m a woman, by virtue of womb ownership, and POLITICAL CORRECTNESS is a conspiracy by Teh Gheyz, Feminazis and Immigrants to control poor, poor men. So my support for that makes me a bit suspect, no doubt.

    It’s probably something important.

    {Nods}

    Louis

  61. Ogvorbis (no relation to the Ogg family) says

    Flats?

    Shit.

    I’m screwing it up again.

    I wear a cowboy hat. (I have five)

    And I just got a pair of cowboy boots with 4cm heels.

    Sorry. I guess I just rock iconoclastic.

  62. Louis says

    Ogvorbis,

    Cowboy boots and a hat? JUST cowboy boots and a hat?

    GET DOWN, SHEP! Woof, woof, fnarr, fnarr, gzork, gzork. AWOOOOGA!

    Louis

  63. Ogvorbis (no relation to the Ogg family) says

    Cowboy boots and a hat? JUST cowboy boots and a hat?

    Well, I normally wear them with a button down shirt (flannel in winter, twill in the fall and spring, and Hawai’ian in the summer), a t-shirt, blue jeans, undershorts and socks, but I figured that would be more information than needed as that is not all that unusual, neh?

  64. Ogvorbis (no relation to the Ogg family) says

    Oh, and as for just the hat and boots? Wife likes it, so why not?

    Of course, right now, it would be hat, boots and brace. And cane.

  65. Louis says

    Cane? Brace? Kinky! If I wore hats, I’d take them off. Bloody silly things…

    …where was I?

    Louis

  66. Ogvorbis (no relation to the Ogg family) says

    Louis:

    The knee brace is helping to keep my knee in the right place.

    As for the hat? Since I was in the army I have always felt uncomfortable being outside without a cover.

    And the cowboy boots? Damn, that high heel is comfortable. Especially with my really high arches. Plus, it puts me back up over six feet tall (I am shrinking, shrinking!).

  67. Louis says

    I would attempt sense, but I usually miss, and I seem to be under the affluence of incohol. Which is a lot harder to type than it is to say for some reason.

    I’m celebrating my next 40 days of serious exercise and healthy living (no booze). Starting it with a hangover that could kill a tree seems sensible. Well, it seems sensible now. I’m thinking in a few hours, less sensible.

    FEDORAS! Indiana Caine and the Feminism of Doom. Okay. That made me inordinately happy. The mental images involving whips alone are going to get me into more trouble than I can handle.

    Louis

  68. Louis says

    Ogvorbis,

    Army? You, sir, are a vastly braver man than I am. I have a very severe allergy to fast lead and a note from my mummy excusing me from wearing camouflage. Anyone that does/did the military thing gets a massive amount of credit from me.

    Now, this shrinking thing. Are you sure? The reason I ask is because I shrink very fast most Saturday nights, but am okay again on Sunday. Apparently, and I have photographic evidence, I list hard a-port on Saturdays. About 45 degrees, depending on tequila consumption.

    Louis

  69. Ogvorbis (no relation to the Ogg family) says

    *Dons her black Fedora and goes back to work*

    But do you have the matching leather jacket and whip?