And they don’t like it. Santa Monica had a lottery to distribute public spaces for Christmas displays — and non-Christians won almost all of them. I suspect it was because non-Christians were motivated and submitted many more applications than the Christians, but you never know, it could be because our God of Random Chance rigged the lottery to the atheists’ advantage.
Anyway, so this year the Christians only got 3 of the 14 spaces in the city park, the Jews got 1, and the atheists got 10. Now the Christians are upset, because they see themselves as oppressed, forced out of the park.
But the group that has long organized the Nativity scenes bristled at the atheists’ move, saying it upends a long-standing winter tradition for the city — and impedes their freedom of expression.
“By trying to push the Nativity scene out of the park and silence us, these people are infringing on our freedom and 1st Amendment rights,” said Hunter Jameson, a Nativity organizer, said in a statement.
It seems to me that everyone played fair and followed the rules, and the atheists were just more eager and enthusiastic about expressing themselves. The Christians weren’t pushed out — they’ve got 3 slots, and you know they’ll rebound next year and make many more applications — but are only getting a season to experience what it’s like to be the minority group. They should take advantage of the opportunity and get used to it — that’s their future fate, to be a small part of the American panoply.
Also, look at the photo of the displays: they’re hideous, walled off behind chain-link fencing. And no, lacing Christmas tree lights around the fencing does not make it look more festive.
Almost seems as if the story of the nativity has more or less been told, in any case.
I never quite got the point of the endless re-runs.
Glen Davidson
The Xians wouldn’t think of this as an example of evilutionion would they. Limited spaces, some organisms out competed others.
No, it’s obviously the work of Satan who’s been empowered by the shifting tides in the War on Christmas.
Sure seems like everyone had the same opportunity to get one of the coveted (oops, sorry Commandment #10) display spots.
Perhaps Einstein was right, gawd doesn’t play dice, but Satan does, and the dice are loaded.
@Predator Handshake
I would so enjoy a sporting event where a player thanked Satan for assistance on a play. Wouldn’t that just make the Christians nuts?
“lacing Christmas tree lights around the fencing does not make it look more festive.”
However it will afford a measure of protection against Xtians like to destroy stuff they don’t agree with
You, Professor Tweedbeard, are an ivory tower snob.
Fuck. Yes.
JT
Christianity, the Eric Cartman of religions: big, bloated, evil, and spoiled rotten.
Of course they see themselves not as one of many players, but of universal good (“even non-Christians enjoy Christmas traditions like the nativity!” they cheerfully assert), so they won’t learn anything from the experience.
It’ll be another datum for the rest of us that majority religion is incompatible with diversity.
Accommodationists, pay some fucking attention.
But their god is all-powerful!
That means this must be the will of their god.
Why do xians hate god?
Years ago, there were no chain-link fences. I remember seeing them as a kid free and open whenever my parents drove me through Santa Monica in December.
If I recall correctly, the fences were added in the 80s when the displays started to get vandalized. Baby Jesus’s magic apparently doesn’t protect his mannequin self from random hoodlums/homeless people.
even non-Christians enjoy Christmas traditions like the nativity!” they cheerfully assert)
When I see these christlime saying this nonsense, I usually can’t control what I want to say. So i just say it:
“Fuck you. I hate your chintzy, cheap, nasty nativity scenes of white peopled dressed up in laughable imitations of goatherder robes and your hay and your stupid beady-eyed wise men and your moronic shepherds, all of them drooling over an ugly big head baby with tacky lights around his head. Anybody who was worth worshipping would have some more interesting and better-dressed people around, and wouldn’t look like a hydrocephalic neon-lit Frankenstein with a loaded diaper. Go fuck yourselves.”
If they had won all 14 spots, they would still be feeling opressed and forced out due to being limited to 14 spots. A persecution complex seems to be a built-in part of conservative Christianity.
What a bunch of dicks. Seriously. Thanks for giving them a great reason to hate atheists.
I grew up with no religion at all. My Mom taught me the nativity story because it was part of my heritage. She left out the part about that baby being “our lord and saviour” of course, but left the rest in. She trusted that the story would not corrupt me, and she was right.
I’m an atheist, and would even be happy being described as “anti-theist”, but I wouldn’t object to attending a Christmas mass.
If you give anyone a gift at Christmas, or put up lights, or take your kid to see Santa, or do anything specific for any holiday at all, you’re a dick for preventing someone else from celebrating the way they wish.
Good grief. Can you imagine how Christians would behave if they actually were in the minority? The screaming howler monkeys would be unleashed.
If one of the church groups puts on a nativity crib display, there should be no Jesus in the scene until midnight on Christmas Eve.
So, if there’s a limit on the number of kids who can see Santa, and I put my kid in line (thereby preventing other kids from having that spot), I’m a dick?
And then hit them with a fruitcake.
@ #8:
You will find PZ’s comments mild in comparison with those on other blogs where this non-calamity is being discussed.
Nobody is preventing them from having nativity displays. They won themselves three places in the lottery; if they had submitted more entries, they’d have won more spots. What they are objecting to is the whole idea that Christianity has to compete with other ideas in the public arena.
If you’re doing it just to prevent that kid from seeing Santa, then yes.
This was not done so that atheists could build their own displays. It’s done so that Christians can’t. We all know that. It’s mean spirited, and therefore, not something I agree with.
Given their love of violence, I’d suppose that they start blowing things up and shooting people.
Yeah, how dare you use public space for your (non-)religious display, just like the Christians, all in contravention of the First Amendment.
You’re no better than those blacks and those women with their fucking voting.
Anyone know if they complained last year as well that they didn’t get all of the spaces?
I think your sarcasm meter may need to be re-calibrated.
I don’t think we do all know that. I think you know that, but unless and until you can offer some evidence to support your belief you would seem to be talking bollocks.
Care to offer evidence ?
Bullshit. It’s done so that others can have a crack at the public space that the Christians have been taking for granted.
Then I’ll tell you what I tell all the other accommodationists—you fix the religion problem with your kumbaya circle, and we won’t have the need to go through this shitfest every goddamn fucking December.
I actually played baby Jesus in a Christmas play when I was 7 or 8. I was a pretty small kid but that’s always cracked me up; I was sort of the default kid to star in plays because I was really good at memorizing lines and wasn’t prone to stage fright. What I remember most is that I had a crush (in the way that a 7-8 year old gets crushes) on the teenage girl playing Mary and I was all about sitting on her lap even though I didn’t know why.
@Brownian lighten up. I’m not sure you’re getting my point.
Yes, non-religious people have the right to use the park. I’m satisfied with the fact that the parks board is not discriminating with respect to the available spots. The fact that anyone is allowed to have a spot is enough. Let the Christians celebrate their holiday, and maybe one day, they’ll not hate us, and will let us teach their kids about science.
Cmall
This was not done so that atheists could build their own displays. It’s done so that Christians can’t. We all know that. It’s mean spirited, and therefore, not something I agree with.
In fact, I don’t know this. How is it that you think you do?
The fact that anyone is allowed to have a spot is enough. Let the Christians celebrate their holiday, and maybe one day, they’ll not hate us, and will let us teach their kids about science.
Because staying silent has worked so well for us in the past…
They’ve been allowed to celebrate their holiday for a long time yet they still hate us. It’s almost like that has nothing to do with it!
Predator Handshake @30
Baby Jesus was a speaking part?
What did he say?
Well if you take that attitude then in fact Christians should give way to Pagan groups, since Christianity appropriated a pagan holiday for Christmas.
Now where is that evidence ? Failure to support your claims is not acceptable here.
Predator Handshake
That’s just because we haven’t been nice enough. If we would only go to church, not talk about atheism and never oppose anything Christians do, they’d like us just fine.
Uh, it’s not the one I am getting, which is the same old tired “Don’t make waves and they’ll come around”, then you’re not a very good writer.
Nope, it’s exactly what I thought it was. You’re Uncle Tom.
Maybe somebody else can give you the argument about how being nicey-nicey and hoping they’ll give you a slice of the pie hasn’t been the way that civil rights to other groups has been granted, but let me ask you this:
In the sixty years that this wonderful, inclusive, hallowed tradition gone on in Santa Monica, we can presume that, especially in decades past, there were no nasty atheists being mean. Why is it that at no point did the Christians say to themselves, “Why, those atheists have been such accommodating fellows, what say we let them have the space we use for our nativity scene next year?”
@cmall
I think the xtians who are offended by secular/atheist displays (or a lack of specific xtian displays) will always hate atheists. Our very existence is an affront to their religion.
*chortle*
You really had me fooled into thinking you were being serious until I saw the above.
Exactly. I mean, it’s okay that atheists got that many spots, but the least they could do is build nativity scenes still. That’s what everyone wants to see, anyway. *facepalm*
Nobody is bloody stopping them, for dog’s sake! They can and do and will celebrate all they want.
But although there are plenty of xians who are decent, tolerant people and not bigots and bullies, the ones who are bullies are the problem (they may be a numerical minority, I don’t know, but they are the vociferous squeaky wheels getting the grease all the damn time). And they will never stop hating anyone who is not one of them. To xians of this ilk, the mere fact that non-xians (of their flavour) even exist is cause enough for outrage and you know it. They will never willingly “let us teach their kids about science” because science shows up the gaping holes in their fantasy.
chigau @34:
I can’t remember specifics, but it was at the end of the play after the wise men had traveled by map to the manger to give the me-Jesus gifts. I-jesus delivered a very cliche aside about how I’m the reason for the season and oh I sure hope they don’t forget about me, something like that. I think whoever wrote the play just went around writing down what was on church signs and cobbled it together into something resembling human speech patterns.
I retract my comment about you not being a good writer, Cmall.
That wasn’t nice, but more than that, it wasn’t fair. I apologise.
(And it’s pretty hypocritical of me in light of the myriad typos and grammatical errors in the comments I’ve written so far. I need more coffee.)
Speaking as a former Catholic, the existence of anyone not of your faith (unless they’re in direct opposition to it, like Satan or Protestants) is kind of an affront to your world-view. It’s inherent in the etymology of the word ‘Catholic’.
cmall:
Citation sorely fucking needed.
If it were me doing that, my motivation would be simply this: “Let people see that Christians don’t dominate Christmas any more.” Simple as fucking that.
The problem is that we’ve allowed Christians to define the debate for hundreds of years. Fuck that. It’s time we defined the debate. The debate is no longer, “It’s a war on Christmas!!!11OMG!!!eleventeen!!” The debate is now, “People who complain about a war on Christmas are being gratuitously fucktardish.”
This isn’t about denying them space in Christmas. It’s about making space for the rest of us.
Surely in the second decade of the C21st Christmas can no longer be considered a wholly religious holiday. After all, there is no religous test to be allowed time off over the Christmas holidays. Atheists, Jews and Muslims are not told that since they do not believe Jesus was the son of God, born to a virgin in a stable, they have to carry on as if nothing is happening.
Wow. I agree with 99.9% of everything posted on this blog, yet disagree somewhat with one thing, and people turn into outright assholes.
It’s OK to have a slightly different viewpoint on a subjective topic guys. Chill out.
This would be an example of confirmation bias wouldn’t it?
Don’t be an idiot.
The truth of this claim is not subjective.
The truth of this claim is not subjective.
If you can’t support your opinions, keep them to your fucking self.
I asked for you evidence, twice.
You clearly have no intention of offering any, so you lied.
More or less, so do I.
People still call me out when I say outright stupid shit.
cmall:
The only thing to which I had an allergic reaction was at the point you ascribed motives to something you couldn’t possibly know. You might suspect bad faith (pun intended), but you said we all know it was simply to keep Christians from their rightful displays.
That’s the only bit with which I disagree, and the bit I feel you overstepped proper bounds, asserting opinion as fact.
Naw. The fundie xians will always hate atheists. Hate is the very basis of their religion.
No hate = no fundie xianity
The fundies use hate for ingroup outgroup tribal identification and as a motivating force. This was known over a century ago.
PS All fundie religions use hate this way. Moslem, Jewish, Hindu, Xian, they are all similar under the surface.
The one photo in the LA Times piece linked by our esteemed host shows two robed mannequins contemplating a small wooden table holding what looks like a small collection of rocks – or maybe little loaves of bread (or something in between, like fruitcake).
Perhaps Santa Monica surrealist-atheists have finally come up with a suitable response to sophisticated theology?
Um, what reason is that?
Please enlighten me – and see if you can express it in a way that doesn’t make them sound like spoiled children.
Part of your heritage? What heritage is that – outside of religion?
If you think that the influence of the Nativity Myth can be seperated from the religion it forms the basis of, then yes, it did corrupt you.
Don’t believe me? List three ways that myth is relevant to you without referencing religion.
“I’m not a bigot, and I would even be happy being described as ‘anti-bigot’, but I wouldn’t object to attending a KKK rally.”
Wha?
I’m presuming this is garbled sarcasm.
Also:
Citation needed.
Really.
I’d be very curious exactly how ‘we all know’ that’s what’s being done here.
This is an assertion without proof or data. It is dismissable without proof or data. You are wrong. You have no way of knowing that and are just making stuff up.
US xianity is dying, choked to death by fundie hate, lies, hypocrisy, and voluntary ignorance. It is projected to go below 50% by 2050.
This doesn’t mean we are going to abandon the holidays which they stole from the Pagans anyway. As the No Religions become a majority they will simply have to develop their own ancient sacred traditions.
Holidays evolve. Much of modern Xmas is relatively new including the tree with electric lights and shopping malls. The mythological xian War on the equally mythological War on Xmas is even more recent, a decade or so old.
One of the more striking memories I retain from my early childhood is of my dad explaining to me that Christians are commonly ostracized for their beliefs. I was ignorant and not yet taught in critical thinking, so I took it as fact, but there was still a sort of nagging doubt in the back of my mind. It wasn’t until my early 20s, when I renounced the religion my parents raised me in, that I realized I had been outright lied to.
The Christian persecution complex is a truly fascinating thing to observe, from either side of the fence. So many of these people subscribe to the delusion that they are persecuted for their faith, it must absolutely blow their minds when they face actual, bona-fide opposition like this.
Calmer than you.
And some of modern Christman pre-dates Christianity. Do you think cmall is going to be telling Christians that the cannot have a Yule log, in real or cake form, or mistletoe. Both pre-date Christianity after all.
And next year when Christians do get more of the slots this will be proof that, “Christianity is the natural order of things and would continue to be so if those pesky heathens would only stop providing evidence to the contrary!”
Indeed, Yule itself was a pre-Christian pagan festival.
@57
“I always knew we were persecuted, it’s just that I never expected to actually see it happen!”
…Wait, how does what I do in my bedroom interfere with anyone else’s– oh, right. >_>
So, the problem here isn’t that the Christian group can’t put up a Nativity scene, it’s that they can’t put up a 14 step Nativity scene. They can only put up 3 steps of the Nativity which, to be fair, will cover the Nativity story in greater detail than most displays. You can have Gabriel appearing to Mary, the 3 Wise Men and then the creche. Done and done.
Brevity is no one’s enemy.
You assume the three displays granted to Christian groups will be a combined effort. Christian groups are noted for despising other Christian groups only slightly less than they despise atheists, so I do not imagine there is much chance of them co-operating.
It’s true: if only we wouldn’t put up atheist billboards, write atheist books, do pesky, non-Bible affirming science, or deny that Jesus is our Lord and Saviour, they’d for sure totes let the gays have their marriages and the women their abortions.
You’ve got it all wrong. The fence is there to prevent baby Jesus from ascending. Little bugger’s done it before, might do it again.
Is there such a thing? I’m aware of the Stations of the Cross, but do people put up a diorama illustrating every little point winkled out of the two gospels that mention it?
“And…uh…here’s Mary and Joseph going for their second ultrasound, but Herod, fearing the Saviour that everyone in the world knew was coming even though some of them will deny His existence just so they can have premarital sex two millennia from now, instructed all the technicians to use the coldest gel possible…”
The problem is they only got 3 displays. And for Christians, 3 is the same as 1. So no wonder they feel cheated.
So where are the pictures of all the other displays..?
The chain link fence is most likely to keep Xians from vandalizing the secular displays.
There were similar displays in Loudan county Virginia that were quickly vandalized by xians in daylight while the cops just stood there and watched.
It’s inevitable that xians will do that. For a persecuted minority in full possession of the Real Truth they are predictably violent when they can get away with it.
I would quite like one of the non-religious groups to set-up a nativity scene but one including a Caganer.
I can’t see how any of the Christian groups could be offended.
cmall: What you’re missing here is the object-lesson. This is a public space. So long as the Christians are intending to use public spaces for their religious observances, they must be made to realize that not everyone agrees with their position.
The groups who put up the 14 displays in years past are still quite free to rent space from private property owners and put up their displays. They could even double-down.
But this served to forcibly remind them that they are not the ONLY voice in the room, nor the only ones who enjoy the time of year. I wish we had a photo-montage of all the displays; I’m curious if any of the atheist ‘slots’ are just generic good-wishes to mankind, maybe deliberately emphasizing a broader application than mere Christianity.
Christians once again show the world what they really mean when they say “persecution”: anything that denies them a privileged position over all other ideologies. Not being able to oppress others is oppression.
When religion is no longer an omnipresent force in our cultures, I’m going to miss the comedic opportunities it provides.
The Facebook comments @ the end of the article are priceless. Definitely worth a few minutes to follow a couple of the threads. Hilarious.
I assume Bill O’Reilly is mobilizing his brigades as we speak, eh?
Both paragraphs of that quoted text are outrageous, but for different reasons:
A tradition is something that’s done year after year. We don’t do something year after year because it’s a tradition, rather, we call it a tradition because it’s done year after year. “Tradition” is never a reason for doing anything!
It’s easy to read between the lines here. In essence, he’s warning everyone that they’ve learned a clever new tactic that they’ll be sure to use next year. By recruiting Christians to send in large numbers of applications, they’ll try to push non-Christians scenes out of the park and silence everyone else, thereby infringing on their freedom and 1st Amendment rights.
Of course that depends upon whether Santa Monica’s space-allocating system remains in place. If it does, we’ll have to remember to check in next year to see how the Christians handle it.
I think the 14 step Nativity scene is necessary to explain how a baby could be born during the census of Quirinius and then persecuted by a king who died a decade before the census took place.
Turns out that “manger” is a mistranslation of the Greek word for “TARDIS”.
I reiterate my comment #75.
The chain link fence reminds me of the scene in the Blues Brothers movie in the country western bar (we have both kinds of music, country and western). The nativity display must be protected against thrown beer bottles.
From other news sources, different numbers (and some pictures of the three displays currently up; one is a generic “Happy Solstice!”)
http://laist.com/2011/12/10/religious_protest_at_palisades_park.php
There are 21 spaces total. There were only 13 applications in total, but each application could be awarded up to nine spots. Therefore, by luck of the draw, the first two names drawn got nine each, and neither of these belonged to any of the Christian groups that normally is involved with the nativity scenes. This system does not sound particularly intelligently designed to me; surely to be fair you’d just give one or two to each of the eligible applicants at random.
That both the first two names belonged to non-religious applicants, seems to suggest that god does not only not play dice, but zie’s really not fond of games of chance of any sort – that or zie just really hates nativity scenes.
I get the impression that those who asked for the slots did it expecting to get maybe two or three max, so hadn’t planned for displays to fill all the space they’ve received.
If I had control over the remaining empty spaces, I would offer some of them to local charities, and some to local artist groups. Or just a nicely decorated tree with a little sign displaying Jeremiah 10:1-5 or some information about the Puritans banning the celebration of Christmas.
Although I do like Matt’s idea of a Caganer.
Since we’re on the subject of Christian hypocrisy, here’s something interesting from the website of Rick Perry, Governor of Texas and Republican Presidential candidate:
“The First Family Wishes You Happy Holidays”
http://governor.state.tx.us/photos/3843/
Check it out before they realize their mistake and change it!
dr. #82
Brilliant spot! That’s delicious. Surely the good Christian folk of Texas are going to be up in arms?
Anyone else notice the dodgy language the article’s author uses? This part really gets to me:
“Damon Vix, an atheist, had a display last year that included a quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson: “Religions are all alike — founded on fables and mythologies.” ”
Saying the quote is ‘attributed to’ Thomas Jefferson instead of saying it’s a quote BY Thomas Jefferson is a tactic used to implicitly cast doubt upon both Vix and atheists in general. Jefferson said the quote in a letter to William Bradford, that’s not up for dispute. Why does the knowledge that one of our founders was explicitly secular cause so much cognitive dissonance in people?
Because it interferes with their own lies as a means to gain political power, loot the US treasury, and head on back to the Dark Ages. It has nothing to do with cognitive dissonance.
Anri,
of course Christianity is part of Western culture – and hence, a Nativity display could be construed as part of Western culture too… (the operative word being “part”, not “whole”)
Western languages are full of allusions from the babble, and many Western names have their origin in the babble or the Catholic church (Saints etc) too.
What’s the problem with that? Myths, including foundation myths, are part of most cultures around the world…
One last comment from me on this, unless someonw wants a clarification, and then you can all tell me where to go, and what to do when I get there.
I stated that I believed that the atheists who won the lottery for space did so more to prevent Christians from displaying nativity scenes than to dispaly their own. This was my opinion, and I apologize for stating it as fact. The only reference I can find anywhere as to the contents of one of the non-Christian displays was one which mentioned a quote by Jefferson. Given the quote’s nature, (a position against religion) I believe it’s fair to say the display is specifically to counter the other displays. This is not a fact, but I believe it’s a reasonable assumption. If someone has any facts about the make-up of the intended displays, I’m open to change my mind.
I still don’t like the idea of atheists booking the spots in the park for their own displays. It just seems so petty, and not becoming of a movement that should be showing the people of faith among us that we do not need a god to be good. A better idea would be to celebrate in our own way by booking the park at another time for a science fair, or perhaps a debate.
Oh, cmall, you’re concern has been noted. You go play nice with the squishy Christians now.
You know, actually, it’s best not to play with them at all. They’re too squishy. At least, you seem to think so.
Funniness aside, you’re verging on decaying porcupine territory, so, if you’re as squishy as you think Christians are, you’d best keep your word about that being your last post or you might read something that’ll cause you to crush those pearls you’re clutching.
I honestly can’t see how that would be mean or petty. “Keeping the Christ in Christmas” and similar is being showed down everyone’s throat during at least a month or two before Christmas. Christmas is a family not religious holiday for many, why shouldn’t they be allowed to take religion out of it? Even (*gasp*) in public.
This implies that what they did is somehow bad. Again, I don’t see how. They did nothing to disrupt Christians in putting on their own displays.
At another time we wouldn’t be celebrating the same thing, now would we? Atheists are celebrating it in their own way, you just don’t like it. I think you’re in the wrong, not them.
cmall,
but why? Do you support the First Amendment or not? Why would you need a state-sponsored Nativity display in the first place? It’s not like private individuals and businesses don’t go all out decorating their homes and stores. Have you ever seen the Santa Monica 3rd St Promenade during Christmas? (I’m not sure if the lit-up tree things in the middle count as public or private, IANAL)
In a country with a clear separation of church and state (nothing as wishy-washy as most European countries) you either allow anyone to put up a display on public ground, or never.
“never” should read “no-one”
Cmall, your inane and misplaced concern is noted. Please pick up your decaying porcupine on your way out.
cmall:
Cool. Thanks.
That’s a fair assumption — not certain, by any means, but fair.
Question: should we allow the Christians to dominate the Christmas holiday, which is essentially secular? Should we essentially allow them to bully us into silence?
The problem with remaining silent in the face of the fundie hegemony was that they’ve historically demonized us when we were quietly hiding. How is using equal access to public land to voice our opinions going to make things worse? The only direction is uphill, and we’ve been gaining ground in recent decades because we stick to clear messages.
Frankly, the baseless assertion that “everyone knows” atheists are deliberately trying to crowd the Christians out is rather silly. These public forums, from what I’ve seen over the past several years, usually start as a way to sneak the appearance of government endorsement for Christianity onto public land without provoking civil rights suits because it’s technically private citizens doing it.
Atheist displays typically show up on these forums both as a means to counteract religious intrusion into government and highlight the tactic used, as well as express our opposing views. In this particular case, I’d be more inclined to believe that most of the people involved in applying for atheist or secular displays were expecting unfair rejections, not to get all those slots.
Cmall you are an idiot.
A lot of those xians would cheerfully kill you if they could get away with it. They say so themselves and this is not an opinion, it is a fact. They also openly hate the USA and want to go back to the Dark Ages. They say this all the time too. Another fact.
1. A lot of us get death threats from them. PZ has been know to get up to a hundred. In one day.
2. Xianity has historically been very violent. That it isn’t today has nothing to do with them. Normal people just got tired of the endless violence and took away their armies and heavy weapons.
Really in the unlikely event that you aren’t a xian death cultist, go find one and join it. You will fit right in.
PS: And oh yeah. Happy Holidays!!! Happy Holidays!!! Happy Holidays!!! Take that and go melt down somewhere else.
Good thing they’re not asking you.
Is that what we’re trying to do? Impress Christians?
Mighty white of you.
Better? According to what criteria ‘better’?
How would “You have Christmas; we’ll have science fairs” lead to more of them uptaking science?
And a debate? Are you new?
They will hate atheists and other groups no matter what. This is the central feature of fundie-ism. They have to hate.
No hate = No fundie xianity. Simple as that.
Nobody seems to have mentioned that those nativity scenes are unbiblical. There are two versions of the nativity story, one has a star and wise men but no shepherds, angels or stable. The other version has census, donkey, stable, angels and shepherds but no star or wise men. Not only that but in later life, this Jesus character is told that he can’t be a messiah because he comes from Nazareth. He spectacularly fails to point out that he was born in Bethlehem. Massive contrived prophesy fail.
Woah, I am late to this party.
Cmall,
You know, I was raised in a secular household, too. But here’s the thing, how was the fucking nativity story “a part of your heritage”? Were your ancestors there or something?
And, seriously, who the fuck cares? The atheists got a bunch of displays though a fucking lottery, not though any nefarious scheming. You can stop clutching your pearls now.
Fucking accomodationist.
Nigel, first, cheers for being nice.
Christmas is actually a time where I find Christians to be less annoying. In my experience, my encounters with them during the holiday season (where religion comes up) are more pleasant. I find that showing them I’m willing to sing caroles with them and partake in traditons specific to Christianity opens them up to the fact that as an atheist, I’m not the devil.
I really don’t feel bullied into silence. I can support the right of people to book space in the park without supporting the idea behind doing so. I’m not saying they should not have the right to free speech. I’m just saying it’s not a good way to get an idea across.
I’m obviously in the minority here, but I like the Christmas traditions, even the ones that are inherently Christian. I think that as we move towards a more secular society (fingers crossed here), Christmas traditions (religious ones) will become more important to some people. Many former Christians make it a point to go to church at Christmas, because it’s one of the things they miss. I’m Nordic, and if you look at the traditions in Iceland and Scandinavia, they are riddled with ancient religious traditions that are still celebrated by a largely secular people.
Now, it’s important to note that I’m assuming these displays are simply nativity scenes. If I were to find out that these displays were pictures of crock-a-ducks or signs asking people to submit to Jesus, I would be completely be behind a “conter-display”, but that does not seem to be the case.
Firstly, The holiday is not inherently Christian. Cmall, if you think about it for just a moment, you will recognize that trees and ham have nothing to do with anything remotely Jewish or any derivative. Celebrating a solstice is a very ancient, common thing to do. Look up the story of Amaretasu sometime, and read Terry Pratchett’s Hogfather.
My guess is that the Santa Monica Nativity scenes are a relic of cold war anti-atheism. It’s really time to let go of that.
Since the church stole most of the the traditions from the pagans, they might not be as Xian as you think. The Xian lies about Xmas start with the birth being at the winter soltice (Saturnalia), and not the spring or fall as would be expected from the scriptures. And they go downhill from there.
And this is why we consider you accommodationist scum. It doesn’t matter what they are. Just that there is something against the season being nothing but mythical jebus and his fictonal tales.
csmall – “I agree with 99.9% of everything posted on this blog, yet disagree somewhat with one thing, and people turn into outright assholes.”
Nope, we’ve always been assholes.
csmall – “Let the Christians celebrate their holiday …”
it IS NOT ‘their’ holiday, they deliberately stole it (Jesus wasn’t born in December). It rightfully belongs to all of us.
Xians get every day of the year to do what ever they want in their homes and churches. They shouldn’t get any to use public property to spread their superstition.
Cmal, if you are Nordic, maybe Christianity seems more benign to you, because Christianity has already lost much of its power. But I’ve seen enough smashed Catholic statuary in Sweden to know that it took a struggle. And if my family’s experience just south of you is valid, the church’s role in anti-semitism more or less broke the iron grip of religion.
csmall – “I find that showing them I’m willing to sing caroles with them and partake in traditons specific to Christianity opens them up to the fact that as an atheist, I’m not the devil.”
You have Stockholm Syndrome.
I read about this earlier in the week. One of the things that struck me as kind of sad was that not all of the spaces were used. From what I read here sounds like the “lottery” was poorly organized and it is obvious that the participants were not really prepared.
As has been pointed out christmas is not the only thing that happens at this time of year. By christmas I mean the of course the christian religious celebration that takes place near the northern hemisphere winter solstice as declared by some pope (poop) in the past. This is the united states I see absolutely no reason why we can not have displays why it has to be only the exclusive place for the christians .
Santa Monica (the home of the homeless) is a part of the vast megalopolis of L.A. and has a very diverse population including a large Persian segment as well as many Asians all have traditional celebrations centered around the solstice.
What the christians do not seem to understand is in the world of L.A. today and especially in places like Santa Monica they are but one of many.
what a bunch of crap the coverage in the news also seems to bring a slant toward conflict and controversy to these kind of stories as if it is too hard to bring a little depth to it.
the fences are “ugly” but as I remember they were started so that they could even have the displays at all. They were at one time less confined and were in essence and in some cases actual buildings, shelters that were soon occupied by the homeless so thoroughly that you could not even see the baby jesus besides as being vandalized.
Besides at this time of year that is the last thing the good people want to be reminded of, the poor and homeless.
uncle frogy
It took us this many posts to find out that your entire argument is based on the fact that you, cmall, Nordic, personally like nativity displays and Christmas carols. They remind of you good times with mommy, who carefully left out the “submit to Jesus” part.
If you really want to consider yourself ‘nice’, next time do us a favour and admit up front that you’re a fucking idiot arguing from your own personal preferences so we won’t waste time trying to find sense in your droolings.
There’s niceness in honesty too, dipshit.
The irony of the US instigated “War on Christmas” sillines is that in the early days of America much of the population didn’t think much of Christmas, including some of the equivalents of today’s fundies who whine about “tradition” being violated.
the two characters at the little table in the display beside the sidewalk – They’re playing three card monty or the shell game, aren’t they?
And we should stop saying “Jehovah,” as well. We’re only making it worse for ourselves.
Killed By Fish
I disagree; the christians have no idea what it’s like to be a minority – no one is persecuting them, they just have that stupid persecution complex of theirs which is not the same thing, not even in Bizarro world. I was hoping the Jews would have won most of the places; I’d love to spend Hanukkah in Santa Monica wearing sandals lighting candles by the sea.
I agree completely, but the way you phrase it, though eloquent, is exactly one word too long.
There’s niceness in honesty, dipshit.
Better?
Xians are basically miserable little bunnies that sense that the crock of shite that got rammed down their throats was in actual fact…a crock of shite.
Does it not occur to their atrophied little brains that if their delusion was all so powerful and all so into being praised and sanctified and gloried by his minions he/she/it would have extended forth his/her/its will to ‘make it so’ it is his/her/its son’s birthday when all is said and done and gerrymandering the stall allocations would not be stretching his/her/its awesome power in the least according to his/her/its idiotic followers.
He/her/it made the earth in 6 fucking days 6000 years ago…(depending on the cult flavour) in that time he/her/it populated it with animals, plants and trees and his/her/its apparent triumph man & woman from a rib bone…(to clone or not to clone) and yet this doyenne of miracles could not, can not, did not, had not, the wit, wisdom, ego, wherewithal, or gumption to insure that only xian dingbats got the stalls…
Methinks Yahweh does not give a toss…otherwise he/her/it would have pulled his/hers/its finger out from its usual smelly parking place.
Unless of course if he /she/it does not in fact exist beyond the twisted, perverted rambling vague imaginings of his loyal and benighted fuck ups!
Much. Thanks, feralboy12.
I’m actually surprised by this comment. I figured two reasons for applying for this public space.
First, one I can relate to: just the desire to see one’s views represented alongside the majority. I want Christians to be aware that other people are sharing this country with them. For me, this would be best accomplished by a science joke, a stylized globe with the words “axial tilt is the reason for the season.”
Second, one I can’t much relate to but am aware of: a significant number of atheists seem to adopt a neopagan aesthetic for holidays. Many of these people celebrate the solstice quite seriously. I can understand why they’d want their midwinter celebration to be given equal recognition by the government.
There’s this dude who posted this in the comments to the article in the LATimes –
Cmall, are you Greg Schwartz? Because you sound exactly like him.
So some of the spaces are going unused? Hmmm. I could think of a few possible displays on a secular Christmas theme. How about some historical education about the origins of some of the common trappings used at the holidays, with informational plaques explaining the scene?
-Saturnalia! Romans in togas at a feast, with holly everywhere!
-The Baldur death/resurrection myth, with mistletoe in its proper place. Freya kissing passersby under the oak tree.
-Renaissance era Christmas tree, decorated with candles, with an explanation of the origin of fire insurance. Bucket of water next to the tree, of course.
-Sinter Klaas and Black Peter, with a family hearth with wooden shoes neatly set out.
Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Of course, the suggestion that some of the other local people should also be able to make displays is good. Let’s see a Wiccan Yule display, something for Ramadan or Kwanzaa, whatever the abovementioned Persians and various asians celebrate. Do the Native Americans have a winter solstice celebration?
Surely something fun, multicultural, and educational could be organized! Have the fundies’ heads exploded yet?
For the future, I’d suggest that the commitee that runs the lottery change the submission slightly, to include a field for how many spaces you want. If you request 2, and your application gets pulled for 9, the unneeded 7 should go back into the pot for others to use.
Atheists getting the majority of lots by sheer luck? Surely this is just another case of atheists being a joyless, evil bunch. What a bunch of crude, rude, diabolical thugs. Surely there is nothing more evil than accidentally taking away chances of Christians to erect nativity scenes. Their place in Hell will be well deserved. Now, let us get back to the fun, good Christian festivities.
cmall:
Well, it is my turn to be “good cop.”
But there are those of us who do feel bullied into silence.
This started a few years ago, when a few atheist groups put up “knowledge trees” and other secular displays. (Honestly, pretty much everything but the nativity is a secular (or worse, pagan!) display.) These were often vandalized.
This whole manufactured “war on Christmas” controversy is nothing but an annual intimidation campaign, a time for some (certainly not all) Christians to cry loudly about us mean atheists trying to destroy Christmas. Hell, last year there was an entire movie released with exactly that premise: an atheist who was secretly angry at God was trying to spoil everyone’s otherwise-perfect Christmas by standing up for secularism. Never mind Christmas was already spoiled by that stupid hand-held football game (thanks, Dad, I asked for a Gameboy) and that crappy three-year-old Christmas candy in the Norman Rockwell tin. Yeah, that tooth will never grow back. Never mind how Uncle Rick and Aunt Cherry got in a row about the appropriateness of rum in a fucking rum cake.
Stupid movie.
Aaaanyway, it’s an old trope by this point. It’s a Republican tradition dating back to the early days of 2002, when Bill O’Reilly realized he couldn’t continue to use terrorists to frighten his listeners for every occasion. For Christmas, he brought out his best Sunday-go-to-meetin’ bad guys, the Evil Ol’ Atheists, fighting against honest Christians who just want a good old-fashioned theocracy to make them feel content over Christmas. Is that too much to ask for?
So, yeah. Some of us feel a bit bullied. Some of us feel there is pressure not to be too atheisty during the Christmas season (and it is officially an entire season now, nestled between the seasons of Soggy Leaf and Freezing Your Ass Off For Too Fucking Long). It’s like they don’t mind atheists (except they do), just as long as we don’t remind them we exist.
This isn’t just them saying, “Ahh, Jeez, guys, we just want to celebrate our ridiculous holiday in peace, in the privacy of our own home.” They are pushing it in our face, in public areas. They are blatant about their belief this is their time of year, as if they are the only ones who can be filled with The Holiday Spirit (eggnog and bourbon, hold the eggnog). And so they are trying to claim the public spaces as off-limits to everyone else.
How is that not an attempt to silence us?
So what about us? Are you saying that our opinion doesn’t count because it runs contrary to yours? Are you saying that our evidence for bullying (vandalism and entire movies dedicated to making us feel bad, for example) is merely our delusion?
Sorry for the long rant, cmall. I can see you were only expressing your opinion. it’s just that your opinion is essentially telling folks like me, “You are delusional. Christians are nice. They aren’t trying to bully you. They aren’t trying to shut you up. They only rarely deface your holiday displays. And even if they are bullying you, you should still not stand up for yourself.”
I don’t think you mean all that. But it definitely feels as if you are minimizing my experience simply because your experience has been much more pleasant.
Nope, not me. Haven’t commented about this anywhere else. This Greg guy sounds like as asshole though, havin’ all those opinions. Jerk.
Sure, I was just making the point that it was a part of cmall’s ‘heritage’ only through the special position given religious stories. That’s why I asked for three non-religious reasons why it was relevant.
And lots of English phrasing is taken from Shakespeare. Yet, one can have a stage show without ol’ Will even being mentioned and nobody gets bent out of shape. You wouldn’t presume that a display of costumes from Cats was somehow ‘anti-Bard’ in content, would you?
It’s only a problem when certain myths are tought as true and venerated above other, equally silly myths. When that happens, the people who like to think straight should stop giving those myths special treatment and show impatience with those that insist upon doing so.
You know, kinda like what’s going on here. Both in the park and in the thread.
It’s not that he has opinions: it’s that they’re based on absolutely fuck all but his own personal preferences for how things should be. But, I dunno. Maybe, if pressed, he’s actually got evidence for his views, which would make him not quite the asshole you are.
I wouldn’t have to explain this if you’d do a little less yapping on about how wonderful Secular Nordic Baby Jesus Mangers are and a little more paying fucking attention.
Hey Nigel, great comment.
I agree with pretty much everything you say, and you’ve helped me to understand the opinions of the others here. I feel the same way about the “War on Christmas” propoganda used by Fox News et al to rally the troops against the “Liberal Agenda”.
I didn’t mean to say that I never feel bullied by Christians. I don’t feel bullied by religious displays, unless they tell me to do things. I certainly do feel bullied by the religious on many occations, and I certainly think it’s intentional on their part. I could give you a long list of Christian blogs from which I’ve been banned (or have had my comments altered) for politely and cheerfully pointing out the facts of evolution. At no time did I say that Christians are nice. I think most people are nice, and believe that being Christian gives one an excuse not to be nice. Thankfully many don’t use it.
As for shutting us up? You bet they’re trying to do that, but I’d rather us not stoop to that level unless absolutely necessary.
If I had my way, forcing the nativity scenes out of the park would be lower down my list. That’s all I was saying. It’s really disturbing to me that my opinion triggered such vitriol, but I understand this is a sensitive topic (and rightly so) for some, and to those folks who have taken offense, I apologize.
There is a horribly written and biased article on MSNBC regarding this topic. The public would benefit greatly from some additional comments from this crowd… http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/13/9420141-atheists-ramp-up-message-for-the-holidays-humbug
I too, like many others including cmall and Dawkins, enjoy the Xmas traditions. Even many of the Christian ones. I’m singing in a Kings’ style carol service at a church next week. There’s a fairytale about a magic baby, clearly symbolising the rebirth of the sun from the shortest day in the depths of winter. That’s also delightfully upside-down, when you’re in the southern hemisphere. There’s pretty music and feasting, and presents and decorations.
And so what? The decent Xians don’t care that I’m an atheist, and the horrible ones don’t care that I sing at some pansy-ass ultra-liberal no-true-Xian gay-loving church. Me “going along with it” doesn’t help shift the horrible people one iota.
Look: ‘nice’, integrated Muslims.
Look: Christians not stopping the hate to instead teach their kids about science.
cmall
Why are you whining? I agree with about 51% of everything posted on this blog, but I insist that my ability to argue my case is why I should be listened to. I would feel like a libertarian if I complained that my agreement on other issues ought to earn me deference.
Cmall, stop it. You’re being a real jerk. Stop asserting this was a case of deliberately “forcing” nativity scenes out of the park. You don’t get to phrase it as if it’s an uncontroversial fact. And stop whining that people reacted with vitriol because you “dared” to have an opinion. That’s bullshit and you know it. Your opinion struck many of us as bizarre and unsupported. You followed it up with a suggestion that we pipe down so Christians will like us and let their kids learn science.
FUCK YOU. I stopped listening to your type 20 years ago when gay men would wring their hands and insist that all our obnoxious demanding marriage rights and holding hands in public was setting back the cause. It was bullshit then and it’s bullshit now. You’re either very young and inexperienced or you don’t pay particular attention to what’s actually going on in the US vis-a-vis secularism. So, yeah, you had some vitriol coming. There’s still time to learn.
And please, just stop it. I can see typing out another aggrieved and wounded comment about how mean I’m being. It’s tired. Try substance instead.
cmall – “As for shutting us up? You bet they’re trying to do that, but I’d rather us not stoop to that level unless absolutely necessary.”
OK, you started out with ‘I’m an atheist, but you atheists are just big ol’ meanies for trying to suppress Xian displays on public property.’
When it was pointed out you had no facts to back this up with, you resorted to your POV as anecdata.
Get it straight, there is no ‘us’ involved in your being held a willing captive to your beliefs.
Read the fucking facts above. The solstice was not when baby jeebus was hatched. The first Xians in America loathed Xmas. The war on Xmas was founded my Faux News less than 10 years ago. If Xians wanted those public spaces, they could have applied for them. It is sour grapes, from poutraged Xians, who couldn’t be bothered to get off their asses. They just assumed their religion is more important than the US Constitution.
I may be rude, but I’m not delusional. The holiday season belongs to all of us, and we get to express it publicly in Gov’t sponsored spaces.
Every argument you have come up with is basically don’t hurt the poow wittle xians’ feweeings or they might not believe in science.
Your arguments make as much sense as Xians claiming that gay marriage hurts their marriage. It is not a rational argument.
If you are sincere in your beliefs about this, I suggest you reexamine your beliefs, because you have been proved wrong, over and over.
Hey Josh, Here’s an aggrieved and wounded comment for you, and the rest of the self-appointed blog police.
Go fuck yourself.
Regards
cmall:
Again, I don’t think folks were trying to “force” nativity scenes from the display; I think the idea is to have a better representation of the diversity of Christmas, rather than allow Christians to completely own the display. It seems only two non-Christian groups applied to get stalls, but they “won” a disproportionate amount of the space.
And it isn’t really vitriol. Folks here are assertive, sometimes even crass. But really all I’ve seen is pretty much the same thing I’ve been saying, only without the verbiage. I am loquacious (which I managed to spell on the first try).
In any case, I’m glad I was able to help represent. Brownian’s far better at it than me. ‘Cause he’s funnier.
Well, at least that was straightforward and direct, cmall. There are no blog police here though. It’s just people disagreeing, and yes, vehemently. They told you why, they gave reasons. It’s not coming from nowhere.
I’ll certainly try.
Hey Josh, Here’s an aggrieved and wounded comment for you, and the rest of the self-appointed blog police.
Go fuck yourself.
Regards
But will he stick the flounce…?
cmall:
“Hey Josh, Here’s an aggrieved and wounded comment for you, and the rest of the self-appointed blog police.
Go fuck yourself.”
It’s not at all disturbing to me that our opinions of your opinion triggered such vitriol, but I understand this is a sensitive topic for you, and to those that pointed out the inconsistencies in your argument, I applaud.
FTFY.
I’d really much rather he stayed and actually consider why people think his opinion is misguided. But so far he doesn’t seem interested (and no, it’s because everyone was super mean, though that’s always a handy excuse).
cmall, you being Nordic means that you (like me – I’m Finnish, hälsningar) have had our ancestors rejecting religion to reach the point where we are now. The way Christians are seemingly powerless and diminishing in the Northern Europe doesn’t mean they are the same way all around the world.
You live where the religious aren’t as bullying as they are here in the states. Here’s the real question: Should a nativity scene be on public or church property, all things being equal. And if secular displays are also present, should the religious shut the fuck up? The correct answers are church property, and they should shut the fuck up. And they expect their display on public property, without any secular refutations, so we do feel bullied here. That is why we have problems with your attitude.
Nordic peoples shouldn’t sleep on the Church. The Church nearly caused the extinction of the nyckelharpa!
Wow, we have ‘blog-police’!?
Alert the Pepper Spray Cop!
What? You didn’t like us giving our opinions on your opinion?
It’s okay. So, you’re shitty at thinking. I’m sure you’re a very good caroler, and you can partake in Christian traditions with the best of them. The Christians must think you’re a credit to our
race, sorry, non-faith.You’ll make some rich Christian family a fine house atheist someday.
/me:
Brownian:
*sigh*
Case rested.
Luckily, it’s a case of beer.
cmall:
Well, that’s just dandy. Some of us don’t have the luxury to ignore religious displays because they’re fucking everywhere. I start to feel really excluded the second the “War on Xmas!” and “Jesus is the reason for the season!” fucking bullshit starts*.
But those poor, poor Christers. They may be in the majority in the US, but if they can’t have ALL! of the Xmas themed displays (just three), they’re being excluded! And that’s just not fair to give other groups the same chance they have!
Somebody better call the WAAAAAAAAAH-mbulance before there’s a collective meltdown of the Christers and their fucking sycophants.
—
You know what those displays need? A condom tree.
*Which, now that I think of it, might explain my absolute abhorrence to Xmas. Well, that and having worked for far too many years in retail.
Offering a perspective, if the 144 posts will stop for a second to hear an anectdote….
This year in Little Rock, the local freethinkers’ organization followed the rules of submission to the letter. It was a first-come-first-serve basis for slots on the capitol lawn. Our president had our application for a slot on the submission desk at like 0900 on the first day applications were being accepted.
This is an example of the secular community being /more motivated/ to be heard and seen. It didn’t have a thing to do with trying to push the nativity scene out of the lawn… Only in making sure our display was accepted.
’nuff said.
@shiroferetto:
Jerks. You’ve ruined it for atheists everywhere.
Now none of us is gonna get our head-pat for mumbling the “Our Father” just to fit in.
A nativity scene where baby jebus is a zombie would be sweet. Maybe he chomps into Mary when she holds him close. Or the wise men could show up and tear jebus apart for his tasty baby flesh. Good stuffs.
I’m sick of all of these cheerful, feel-good, merry fucking displays. How about a Krampus display? That would be awesome.
“You kids better be good or else Krampus will stuff you in his burlap sack and eat you for Xmas dinner!”
“It was a banner fucking year!”
–Sincerely, Santa Monica Atheists and Freethinkers
Brownian:
Yeah, the Santa Monica atheists attacked people’s mythologies, oh noes!
Warms the cockles of my cold, empty, Christmas-hatin’ heart.
Unless you’re a conservative of course, in which case claiming something is traditional is all the (self) justification you need. And if you want to “justify” something al you need to do is loudly shout about it being traditional and … there you are! QED
@Brownian:
Yes, we’re MISERABLE atheistic bastards who ruin everybody’s fun. Just like the Christ-thumpers say.
I do believe there was a concerted effort to exclude Christers from being able to display their Christian message. The atheist messages were not for anything, rather they were against Christers. I think the atheists should give back some of their unneeded spaces just to be in the Saturnalia spirit. Take the high road and show Christians a positive reaction. Religion is dying out, and it wouldn’t hurt to show Christers the positive influence rationality will have on society. Pettiness and vindictiveness are really not rational behaviors. From the Santa Monica Press:
“The Santa Monica Daily Press (http://bit.ly/tr8h1T ) reported that churches had little or no competition for the spaces during the past 57 years. This year, 13 people bid for spaces, prompting City Hall to use a random lottery system to allot the spots.
Two individuals snagged 18 spaces. One person can request a maximum of nine spaces.
“Our belief is that these new applicants have been working together to displace and push out the nativity scenes from the park, rather than erecting a full display of their own,” said Hunter Jameson, a spokesman for a coalition of the city’s churches.
Secularist Damon Vix is behind the anti-Christian crusade.
Last year, he put up a sign quoting Thomas Jefferson: “Religions are all alike — founded on fables and mythologies.” There were also selections on U.S. Supreme Court decisions about the importance of separating church and state.
Vix, who doesn’t live in Santa Monica, now helps other atheists populate Palisades Park spaces, including American Atheists Inc. and the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Secularists feel a need to be more vocal and express their civil rights, he said.”
FIrst, I miss the Hoppist trappings. Second, I just really, really enjoyed this. We all play different roles at different times & I love how this doesn’t back down from the role that you play in this thread while also not only saying nothing about the roles others are playing, but implicitly legitimating those other roles, here and in all threads.
Such a short little line, so much Pharyngula culture. What a great expression of the values I see around this place.
I don’t think this is anything to really crow about. The Christians are the vast majority and will always be able to amass greater numbers, when they have sufficient warning. Any atheist “victory” here will be shortlived. christians have alot of practice at this, having done this for 1500 or so years.
The endgame of this is the christians inevitably pile on with their christian applications such that it returns to something like the 90/10 split that exists in our society.
All the spots at the park are booked up, huh? I wonder if they have checked the local barns and stables. I here that is a good place to have a nativity. (rim-shot?)
Your evidence for this is…
[citation needed]
The Christians have some spaces of their own too — not to mention, they have tons of other spaces, all over their churches and businesses that agree with them and houses whose families are Christian and Christian websites and many other things.
Why do Christians need this particular space so badly?
Slowly, painfully, and with a LOT of kicking and screaming.
And how will giving them more space, meaning less space for the message of rationality, achieve this?
What pettiness and vindictiveness?
So the atheists were working within the rules and won fairly.
…
I don’t see why you’re complaining about the atheists. Perhaps the Christians shouldn’t have been so complacent, or read the rules a bit better, or perhaps the system could have been reworked.
But I don’t see how it’s the atheists’ fault that they could apply for up to nine spaces, did so, and happened to have two groups win all the spaces they applied for.
Lacking any evidence of active intent to silence Christians, this is unfair reporting. The Santa Monica Daily Press needs to issue a retraction and apology for this statement.
@cmall
you must be new here. come back.
@procyon
Oh have you stolen my thunder. I was typing a response when you beat me to the punch.
Quite cute when you read this thread and see the attack on cmall as they ask him for evidence when the evidence for their arguments was as thin as ice on a Pocono lake at the end of March.
How do you know the persons involved for the lottery where from Santa Monica?
How do you know their intentions weren’t to displace the nativity?
How do you know that the source sited is accurate and contains all the facts?
There’s a lot assumption on both parties and a lack of facts.
For a population that makes a fetish out of evidence you come up short this time but it did not stop you from releasing the hounds and how the hounds feast on poisoned meat.
@Brownian
please tell us more about the Santa Monica Atheists and Freethinkers.
Let the apologetics commence…
P.S. Do me a solid save the “f” bombs for your mother.
upagainsttheropes
Stop trying to be clever, you fail utterly. The difference, clear to anyone with half a brain, is that cmall was the only one attributing agenda to the atheists applying for the displays.
@Loud
So he was right for all the wrong reasons
and they were wrong for all the right reasons?
Please explain.
upagainsttheropes #159:
cmall was attributing agenda to the atheists by claiming, with no evidence, that the reason for their displays was just to block the Christian displays.
Thus people demanded evidence.
Nobody else was claiming anything about the agenda of the atheists, so no evidence was required.
What people objected to was cmall’s accomodationism; that atheists shouldn’t put up their own displays because it might upset the Christians and they might not give us a pat on the head and see how nice we are. As if Christians have exclusive rights to force their beliefs down people’s throats in public spaces.
upagainsttheropes, what exactly is up against the ropes, your windpipe thus cutting off oxygen to your brain perhaps? Sure seems so, as the one making a claim of fact is the one needing to produce evidence, not those simply asking for evidence. Even then, this doesn’t so much appear as purely preventing the xians from having a display, as taking the opportunity to show that the non-xians live and have non-xian reasons to also celebrate at this time of year. Unless of course you uncritically accept an obviously biased press report as totally accurate. Obviously biased through their choice of language, just in case you need to ask. Yep, definitely looks like a shortage of oxygen to your brain. Do yourself a favour, stop pushing your windpipe so hard against the ropes.
if were to come to pass that what was said were not true would it disillusion you?
I’ll drop the poetic… and say does motive matter? If it were that the parties involved did it consciously and on purpose to displace the nativity would it make a difference in your opinion?
Hey Loud,
You’re right about me making an assumption that I should not have made. However, I’ve now seen pictures of two displays, and a description of one other. All three displays involve no secular celebration, and all three say something about Christianity or religion. I don’t disagree with the content, in fact I love their content, but they are clearly to counter the nativity scenes, and are not there for any other reason. From other unconfirmed posts here, I understand that there a lot of empty displays, books by a couple of atheists. The fact that they are empty leads me to believe there was no intention to display anything, but only to block the Christian content. If you disagree with that, please give me a more reasonable explanation.
upagainsttheropes #163:
Not at all. I was merely taking exception to your assertion that other commenters had no evidence to back up their claims, when they were making no such claims.
cmall #164:
Let’s assume that you original assertion was true, and the only motivation was to block Christian displays. It doesn’t change anything. What’s at issue here is the default presumption by an overwhelming Christian majority that their religion has a monopoly on this holiday season. We are talking about public spaces here – these individuals can display their Christian icons in their own homes, their churches, and the vast majority of privately owned businesses. Why should they then get to force their religion onto the rest of us in public by default?
What I and others have issue with you for is your accomodationist standpoint. I agree that it does appear petty to take up a public space just so it can’t be used by a Christian. But do you think they care about that? Everyone is not a Christian. They do not have an inalienable right to hijack this time of year to the exclusion of everyone else.
It’s a public space, won fairly in a public lottery. This kind of thing needs to be done to show that we are not living in a theocracy, otherwise no headway is ever going to be made.
This is why people on this blog get so passionate and vocal about issues such as this. Because shutting the hell up and being a nice, quiet atheist does not work.
Yeah, they’re hideous all right. So much for green space.
Loud #165 +1
I still don’t understand why countering nativity scenes, if that were really the sole intent, is so bad. They are not countering it with a hateful message or anything of sort, just with something secular.
You’ve never made the argument on why religious thought and traditions shouldn’t be countered. Just being distasteful in your mind is no real reason, rather your emotion. Potentially insulting the religious is a good thing, and you haven’t shown otherwise. You just make the claim it is bad. Why must atheists, and not the religious, always take the high road? The religious should read and practice their golden rule, and let us respond in kind.
They probably didn’t expect to get so many of the stalls. That the lottery was conducted in such a bizarre way doesn’t suggest any particular intention on the part of the atheists or the Christians who applied for them.
If anything, the city council or whoever was responsible for setting up the lottery is more than likely a Christian. It could be that the bizarre system was intended to make it easier for an overwhelming majority of the stalls to be given to Christians, but that the plan backfired.
However, even if you do somehow find some way to convince yourself that the atheists really did intend to get a whole bunch of empty spaces, this still does not imply they did it to block the display of a few more nativity scenes, which I think we can all agree would be a futile effort, considering the vast numbers of baby Jesuses littered all over the fucking country in public and private space by various Jesusites.
Perhaps they wanted the park to remain free of such an eyesore, or the space to remain open for some other purpose. Perhaps this is symbolic of the emptiness of Christian religions and their empty promises. Perhaps the emptiness is that felt by an atheist this time of year when surrounded by pompous liars spreading their hypocritical message of cheer and goodwill to all, in the name of some idiotic bullshit artist they consider special for having been executed. I honestly don’t give a rat’s ass what their reasons are, and I could care less whether more nativity scenes are lined up in a row in some park in Santa Monica. Get a fucking grip already.
cmall, you’re having a culture shock. In the US, religion is not considered a private affair; consequently, the “Jesus is the reason for the season” business is expressed as public bullying, not as quiet, wistful sighs by churches like it is here in Europe. Have you missed all the blog posts about conservative Americans getting publicly offended when they’re wished “happy holidays”?
…Yeah.
Wow! Chapter and verse, please!
Do the Native Americans have a winter solstice celebration?
I bet some do, some don’t!
That would be December 5th. The Krampus accompanies St. Nicholas, whose day is Dec. 6th. Good cop, bad cop.
Huh. News to me. Quite the career from beating bad kids with a rod and giving them coal instead of sweets.
Don’t be ridiculous. Words don’t have magic power.
Words do have magic power. “honey, let’s go to bed early tonight…” seems to have some effect on me.
it’s cute, isn’t it, that pet atheists are identical to xtians with their inability to understand that they are not the only people allowed opinions.
This dude’s sniveling nonsense – was it followed up with “gosh golly gee, I didn’t expect such vitrol”? Because the next step, after telling us only they get to have opinions, is to pretend to be shocked that their cowardly trolling didn’t earn them cookies.
++
Sidebar:
There’s a woman in my office who put up a sign in her cube that says “It’s GOD BLESS AMERICA, or you can bite my ass and just leave.”
But being nice to xtians is totally going to make them see us as human! It really will! Just ask gays, racial minorities and women how “being nice” is working out for them.
Cmall, it’s now time to offer you another porcupine. It’s clear that you can’t stick the flounce and that you’re not listening. Here, have this quite dead porcupine. Insert it into your anus backward.
You would be so much less annoying if you at least appeared to have considered the arguments that are being made.
Accommodationsm doesn’t work. The world does not become more secular by appealing to the oppressive religious majority. Just as it isn’t becoming more gay friendly by gays simpering up to bigots. Just as segregation and racism aren’t being countered by racial minorities merely being nice to racist majorities.
Have you ever read Martin Luther King Jr.’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail? It’s available online. Go read it.
Antagonising the majority does not hurt a cause or further alienate the minority. The minority, in this case (secular) atheists, is already alienated (even reviled and not trusted, according to studies on American attitudes to atheists), is already subject to hateful bigotry. It doesn’t get worse, short of outright violence against the minority. Accommodating the majority does not convince the majority that the minority isn’t so bad, it demonstrates complicity and cements the current dynamic. How can any minority expect to advance a cause by not being provocative or offensive (read dual meaning)? It can’t.
If the majority isn’t caterwauling about the daringness of the uppity minority merely demonstrating its rights or demonstrating rights it should have (either of which should necessarily be offensive to the majority), then the minority isn’t advancing its cause.
Loud and proud. There is a reason gay rights activists utter those words. You are ignorant of social movements and how they accomplish goals if you think that atheists should participate in Christian traditions and allow them to continue to dominate, unchecked, as though their rights and privileges supersede those of everyone else.
People will be offended when the minority is offensive (read dual meaning). People must be offended.
Has anyone taken her up on her offer and taken a chunk out of her backside ?
Me, of course. I’m an obnoxious asshole. I said, “Ass really isn’t my thing. How about I just flip you off instead?”
She didn’t like that. I’m sure Cmall would be more than willing to put her ass in his mouth though. You know, cuz it would be not nice otherwise.
And why should I make such an argument? They should be countered. Have you no limits to the lengths one should reach to counter a religious display? What about putting up a sign that a child molestor may be in the area? That would work too.
Here’s my point, for those of you adult enough to consider it. I fully support a person wanting to put up a display in a park during the winter season to celebrate, promote, or otherwise inform people of a tradition, idea, holiday, sports team, or any other damn thing they want. That’s fine, and is a good part of being in a community. The problem I have is with hoarding that space. It’s been reported here that much of the space was booked by a couple of people since the rules inexplicably allowed each person to book nine spots.
We’d all be up in arms if a Christian group booked the large majority of space at a science fair and started promoting bullshit, even if they did it by following the rules. You can follow rules and still be an asshole.
I’m starting to think that even those poor Christians that were chased out of their rightful place in the park didn’t raise such a big stink about it as you have. Is this really over the limit you think an atheist should go to when countering religion? Because I think that puts your limit about one “Bless your heart” above expecting atheists to just stay in the closet and pretend they don’t exist.
They would be derided and mocked for promoting bullshit and pretending it’s science.
Cmall, if the organisers of a science far were stupid enough to allow multiple entries and winners by a lottery, the end result is no more than they have earned. Also, what Beatrice, anormalement indécente said.
At least your have finally and definitively admitted that your problem with the Atheists is that you think they did what they did in bad faith. Well, it seems you still don’t understand what activism is.
Accomodationists prove this all the time.
I’ve said that all along. Try to keep up. I’m glad you’ve admitted that is okay to take advantage of people who make mistakes. I’m sure that’s fine for you, and others who make no mistakes.
With that logic we should keep the extra $10 mistakenly given back by a cashier. To each his own I suppose.
I believe stonyground was referring to John 1:43-6, but s/he mischaracterizes it somewhat. It’s an exchange between Philip and Nathaniel, in which Nathaniel says “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” So Jesus himself has no opportunity to qualify his origins. However, the passage does highlight the contrived nature of the birth traditions and the Johannine antipathy to them. The verses following can be read precisely as a counter to the Synoptics’ interest in legitimizing Jesus in terms of traditional Jewish messianic traditions. In John, the person of Jesus and the signs he manifests via the power of the Spirit are all that is needed to demonstrate his status as the son of god.
Nice evasion. Typical of accommodationists when challenged.
You make the allegation that the atheists tried to hoard the space since some of the space they were allowed to use went unused. Now, show with hard and conclusive evidence, not the result of a mangled process, that that was their goal. Or, shut the fuck up about it. Welcome to science, where you must prove your claims. From what I’ve read, the process sucked, not that the atheists were trying to be greedy like you claim.
cmall:
That’s a confusing statement. Who made what mistakes?
By which logic?
I think you are drawing some false equivalencies here. Two participants who abided by the rules and, as a result, ended up with more spaces than other people who also abided by the rules is not morally equivalent to keeping the $10 handed out by mistake.
Oh, Cmall. I know what you’ve said all along and you’ve never used such exacting words. I’m not going to get pedantic about it, however.
I’m glad your responding to something I’ve said, but you’re not responding to any argument I’ve made. The end result of a poorly designed contest is that it will get taken advantage of. It doesn’t even require intentionality on the part of those merely abiding by the rules. And even if it does, that doesn’t necessarily indicate a poor quality in those taking advantage of crappy rules.
You are drawing unnecessary conclusions and I think you’re mistaken about these atheists taking advantage of the contest in the way they have.
Now, instead of attempting to draw me into an argument about the relative morality of the actions of these atheists, why don’t you engage on something of substance? Or don’t. I really wouldn’t mind it if you stuck the flounce.
Abbot nigelTheBold of the Hoppist Monks, nor is it a relevant analogy. Cmall is being intentionally obtuse about the actual issue of discussion. Substantive points are being glossed over if not outright ignored. I don’t believe that cmall actually has anything substantive to say.
To summarize: Atheists must continue to become more visible and assertive so that one day, they may not be castigated by people for doing the exact same things (and within the rules) that the majority religion does.
Only 13 people entered this stupid lottery. For 14 spaces. How would the atheists possibly assume they would get that many. Especially when they weren’t even ready to fill the available spaces!
It’s fairly obvious why so many panels are handed out at a time as has already been mentioned. Since the christians are so used to only needing a couple of people to secure a full set they got complacent.
and Cmall, quite simply Christmas isn’t christian. Let them whine, we are simply taking back the toys they stole from us many moons ago and have now utterly ruined and covered in dull he-man stickers.
If cmall is an atheist, it’s very confusing that cmall uses the same arguments that Jews used about Nazis.
Why, yes, I did Godwin the thread. Why do you ask?
David M:
Well crap. I missed it. Again.
That little tidbit came from Wikipedia, so make of it what you will.
No, Rey.
If one wants Christians to stop demanding a public forum for their religious viewpoints, then one must encourage the atheists and all other religions (Scientology, Islam, Wicca, etc.) to demand the same privileges. Then, perhaps, Christians will learn to keep their magical beliefs as private as they want those other religions to keep theirs and not ask for privileges they’d not grant to them.
Someone has got to make sure that Christians don’t violate the Constitution, because they seem very eager to at every opportunity.
What’s wrong with putting Baby Jesus displays on church lawns or private property– freeing government property to be more secular with lights and Christmas Trees and Santa– and any other secular displays? Why are Christians so desperate to force their beliefs onto others? What better way to get Christians to stop asking for privileges that they’d gladly take from those that don’t share their faith?
As I understand it, the Krampuslauf (running of the Krampus’s, where the town youth get drunk, dressed in fox fur and chains, wielding birch twigs and terrorize the town girls) predates the good cop, bad cop thing with St Niklaus. I loved the Krampuslauf that I was at in Gmunden (Austria) long ago. One of the Krampus’s was my friend’s brother, and they were waiting for us at the bridge to stop us getting home. We had to sneak around another way.