Friday Cephalopod: This should be my Halloween costume »« Give the presents back, Ken

Comments

  1. says

    “People should be held permanently accountable for their words, actions, and ideas.”

    That is the stupidest thing I’ve read on the internet today.

  2. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    That is the stupidest thing I’ve read on the internet today.

    Hmm. I don’t think so. I think it’s unreasonable and unfair for people to think they can simply erase their past behavior and pretend it didn’t happen, when their past behavior affected other people. Making amends and being forgiven isn’t incompatible with being accountable, and being accountable permanently isn’t the same as being punished permanently.

  3. ad hominum salvator ॐ says

    Someone supernice at freethoughtsblogs.com could create a wiki on this server which is restricted to users in both viewing and editing.

    Restricting something like that to account-holders may give a false sense of security. If all you want is for google to overlook it, a robots.txt file will do (also not a Wikia option; Wikia exists for profit so it must be googleable). But getting a user account is always going to be trivial.

    Might I add a hearty “Hell no!” to that idea. I don’t care if they do come to regret it, I don’t care if they change their minds, I don’t care if they call for Smithers to release the hounds – they made their feelings public, and so long as there is no private information on the article, there is no reason to delete the article.

    Well, if they change their minds about what they said, and disavow what they said before, then it’s outdated and dare I say boring to keep their earlier words around. I don’t mind being unkind but it’s just not interesting to be unkind about outdated stuff.

    A pundit cannot request a deletion of their article on Wiki proper, to my knowledge (only request private or inaccurate info be deleted), and that’s as it should be.

    Policy there is that when it is not perfectly clear that a person meets the Wikipedia:Notability guideline, their own wishes as to inclusion should be considered in the deletion discussion. And anyone can request deletion of anything by initiating a deletion discussion.

    Hmm. That’s interesting. How far back can you go to undelete things?

    Foreverz. All articles are permanent as far as we are concerned. Deletion is simply a matter of configuring an article as visible to admins only, instead of the public.

    And SG, what do you think about Monado’s idea above? That was one I thought would work nicely.

    I have no editorial opinion on that. As a technical matter, just make sure we have several active editors and a couple of admins watching the page, because it’s impossible to set full- or semi-protection on one contentious section of a page (like the content on one particular troll) without setting it for the whole page.

  4. says

    can we have a new thread? I’m very tired of this one. Usually things don’t carry over to a new thread.
    Plz, plz?
    +++++++++++++++++++++++
    I’ve always wanted to go to the Oshkosh airshow.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++
    Ogvorbis’ steam locomotive posts are fascinating to me.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++
    Look! Squirrels!

  5. says

    Adults acknowledge and take responsibility for their mistakes, and change their behavior accordingly.

    “Adults” are simply people who have been alive for more than an arbitrarily-defined number of years (usually eighteen, but of course it differs by country). Speaking as someone who’s always been a few years behind the “proper” stage of emotional maturity and stability for my chronological age, I can attest that it’s a mistake to assume that “adults” necessarily possess certain behavioural and ethical traits by virtue of being adults, as though one magically developed these characteristics at the age when one is legally allowed to vote, get drunk or participate in the lottery. (And, conversely, there are plenty of children who are much better at “acknowledg[ing] and tak[ing] responsibility for their mistakes” than many adults are.)

    I can only guess that you’re using “adult” as a term of art to mean “people who conform to my own conception of proper adult behaviour”. But that isn’t what the word ordinarily means, and your definition of “adult” excludes many adults and includes many children.

  6. says

    Thanks, sg and CC. Of course, that’s but one of the falsehoods, but that’s about what I expect of blu.

    Regarding the larger question: Hmm. I don’t think everything we’ve said and done – good and bad – should disappear at our whim or even apology. We’re not born again with every new day. At the same time, I’m not happy with trolling through someone’s online postings over an extended period of time andor on various sites in a hostile way and compiling that in one public place.* That’s true of both pseudonymous and real-name people. I also think young (under, say, 25) people deserve some sort of special dispensation.

    Of course, I don’t think anyone should have their real-life identity outed under any circumstances. In this case, it seems like a matter of doing our best to protect someone from her own self-destructive impulses. That might well be true of others as well.

    *I’m not saying the wiki does this. I just think there’s kind of a fine line and one side of it is creepy.

  7. cicely, Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac says

    Actually, has anyone ever written a what if novel if Islam would have conquered Europe, and then gone on to be the dominant global culture?

    I don’t know of any, and a quick google didn’t pop anything up…but I’d be interested in reading such a novel.
    -

  8. ad hominum salvator ॐ says

    So: some arguments for deleting the bluharmony article.

    It’s of minimal or no relevance to Pharyngula if she doesn’t come back.

    We can undelete it if she does come back.

    I also don’t believe in free will or moral desert, but I do see value in punitively causing discomfort, stress or pain in order to modify future behavior. Bluharmony has demonstrably spent many hours re-running this problem in her mind, and apparently ended up crying about it at least once. In this sense it may be said that she has “served her time” and this is likely the most productive outcome that we are going to achieve.

    The article may be at the point of swiftly diminishing returns.

  9. First Approximation, Much Cooler In Cyberspace says

    The article in question only refers to bluharmony by her pseudonym and the things she posted under that ‘nym. The only personal info that was there was added by blu herself and it has since been deleted. With that gone I have trouble seeing how that article can damage her livelihood as she is claiming. Seems more like a bullshit excuse to get rid of criticism.

  10. DemetriusOfPharos says

    ad hominum salvator:

    Well, if they change their minds about what they said, and disavow what they said before, then it’s outdated and dare I say boring to keep their earlier words around. I don’t mind being unkind but it’s just not interesting to be unkind about outdated stuff.

    Eh, I think a footnote to the effect of “this was said on XX/XX/XXXX, but it has since been rendered null by STATEMENT_X” is both useful and interesting. (For context, I’m a programmer and prefer historical documentation. To each his own (terribly sexist phrase now that I think about it, perhaps “Shclis” from Futurama instead of his).

    A pundit cannot request a deletion of their article on Wiki proper, to my knowledge (only request private or inaccurate info be deleted), and that’s as it should be.

    Good point, that was awkward phrasing on my part. What I meant, of course, was that an article would not be deleted solely because a pundit requested it, there would have to be multiple other reasons.

  11. DemetriusOfPharos says

    Bloody hell! The second blockquote on my #513 should be:

    And anyone can request deletion of anything by initiating a deletion discussion.

    Anyway, I’m off to a Halloween/Post-rapture party with the local heathens. Later!

  12. says

    Judging by your posts, I don’t think you have a firm understanding of the concept of reputation.

    SC, I’m really not in the mood to be patronized or sniped at, OK? REALLY not in the mood. If you have something substantive to say, fucking say it. (Or preferably don’t.)

    And I’d really rather not spend the whole night, as well as the whole day, having this stupid argument. I can’t stop responding because people keep replying to my comments, and saying things which I cannot let stand. But this is emotionally difficult for me, is triggering my OCD in a big way, and has already more-or-less completely taken over and ruined my weekend.

  13. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Eh, I think a footnote to the effect of “this was said on XX/XX/XXXX, but it has since been rendered null by STATEMENT_X” is both useful and interesting.

    I agree with this. For that reason I actually prefer that the information deleted earlier about the whole dyslexia thing be restored to the page, with a corresponding note regarding the retraction.

    However, knowing that the page can be restored if blu returns to Pharyngula, and that the admins will still have full access to it, my investment in keeping it up is only minimal and a matter of principle. I don’t think people ought to succeed in demanding that criticism of them be removed because they disagree with that criticism. I don’t think that’s a good precedent to set. Other than that, provided blu stays gone, I don’t see strong value for the page.

  14. ad hominum salvator ॐ says

    Another way of putting the diminishing returns thing:

    Are we still going to want this article in 2016?

    Probably not, and there will almost certainly come a time when we say “why on Earth are we still keeping this around” and deletion is uncontroversial.

    Now, on the condition that bluharmony does indeed fuck off today, perhaps there is no considerable benefit of keeping the article in the interim between today and 2016.

  15. Algernon says

    And I’d really rather not spend the whole night, as well as the whole day, having this stupid argument. I can’t stop responding because people keep replying to my comments, and saying things which I cannot let stand. But this is emotionally difficult for me, is triggering my OCD in a big way

    Get the fuck off the motherfucking internet.

    With love, dear. Feel free to call. Just get of the goddamned tubes.

  16. Algernon says

    *off

    Oh, I learned that St. Germain = Elderflower. How did I go through my life without knowing this? How can I possibly make up for lost time?

  17. says

    SC, I’m really not in the mood to be patronized or sniped at, OK? REALLY not in the mood.

    I could not care less about your moods.

    If you have something substantive to say, fucking say it. (Or preferably don’t.)

    I thought you were sharper than that. Here: You would not be at fucking HLS were it not for your reputation.

  18. says

    Get the fuck off the motherfucking internet.

    With love, dear. Feel free to call. Just get of the goddamned tubes.

    Yeah… that’s good advice.

    I’ll go get some food. I haven’t eaten much today, which is probably not helping my mood.

  19. says

    I could not care less about your moods.

    Lovely. What a nice person you are, SC.

    And now I really am going to get off the Internet.

  20. ad hominum salvator ॐ says

    I don’t think people ought to succeed in demanding that criticism of them be removed because they disagree with that criticism. I don’t think that’s a good precedent to set.

    Well, I agree it’s not good if that’s the whole of it. We should also ask “what do we get out of it?” In this case we have something of value: she fucks off.

  21. Ing says

    One issue I’m sensing is that Walton has one idea of forgiveness and all that glurge that others to not agree with and there’s debate on how the wiki should be run. I can’t see the discussion going anywhere when Walton takes this difference of opinion as a moral failing.

  22. says

    @Chigau – have you considered parsley pesto?

    The wiki: my opinion, which is mine.
    * All identifying information needs to go. (Unless posted by the person in question AND still wanted by them.)
    * Anything else they’ve said in public, including blog comments, is fair game.
    * Kindness is more important than fairness. (Implementation of this concept is deeply complicated, because often kindness to one can be, or seem to be, harm to another.)

    I do find it highly ironic that blu, who says “It’s very important to me that the men I work with see women as capable and strong.” – and considers that RW’s mild complaint makes us all out as weak – is once again playing the “I’m a delicate little flower, you big meanies made me cry” game about herself.

  23. Ing says

    I could not care less about your moods.

    Lovely. What a nice person you are, SC.

    And now I really am going to get off the Internet.

    Yeah, that righteousness is going to help.

  24. Ing says

    @Alentha

    Seems fair to me (who cares about 0% safe for the interest in the debate).

    But I think it is a matter of goals, which is why I made the comment about caring what someone thinks or if there feelings are hurt. People do earn ‘slack’ from interacting in a community. When someone is seen as part of a community the tone of a conversation changes. Here someone gets a lot more slack if they’ve shown they’re open to conversation and actual discussion rather than some newb who comes in blasting their ideology and acting smug. Walton himself gets a LOT of slack, frankly because people DO care about his feelings. Someone like Eric Hovind gets 0 slack. Alentha’s proposal seems good to me, so I’ll put my vote in.

  25. Ing says

    But really don’t listen to me. I’m a hypocrite

    After last night I broke down and got Arkham City *hangs head in shame*

    Sniffle…I like Catwoman :(

  26. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    I would side with the general opinion that people are responsible for what they say.

    Walton, like you, I have said and thought some deeply stupid and hateful things. Loathesome, even. If I seem like I mention this fact about me a lot, it’s because I feel accountable for them, and because I feel accountable for them, I see the importance of not just trying to erase them in my mind.

    I had a douchebag former friend who I was vastly too forgiving with. See, he had this weird convenient form of amnesia. Whenever he did something dickish, he found a way to ‘not remember’. Some of it was probably alcohol, true, but I firmly believe most of it was just him conveniently wiping misdeeds from his memory so he could go on thinking of himself as this cool witty awesome guy who gets the ladies and all that horseshit.

    Unlike him, I cannot forget. Neither the bullshit he pulled, nor bullshit I’ve pulled. What’s that old saying about those who forget the past?

    People should be able to escape their pasts. Surely it’s possible. I’ve come a long way. But it’s not easy. There’s no God washing you clean of your sins, or any of that bullshit. Redemption takes work, and don’t be surprised if people suspect ulterior motives at first in your sudden turnaround.

  27. Algernon says

    I can’t see the discussion going anywhere when Walton takes this difference of opinion as a moral failing.

    Bingo. IMO. But not so much failing, as a part of something it just isn’t a part of to anyone else.

    Meh, but I don’t really want to take the conversation down another rabbit hole.

    The decision needs to be made by those who have a stake in it as to how they want their site run.

    Other people, who may disagree, can challenge that or they can choose not to be a part of it. Those are their options. But the fact of the matter is that once some one is affected to a certain level, they aren’t in a condition to offer good opposition anyway.

    Walton, if you come back to see this though, here’s something good to consider. The people here are capable of deciding without you.

  28. says

    Yeah, that righteousness is going to help.

    Look, Ing. I am not trying to be self-righteous. I am just explaining that I am really not in the mood for this, and that it is not at all healthy for me to continue this discussion, given my particular mental health problems (which I’ve talked about here extensively in the past, and for which I am, thankfully, now getting treatment which is helping). I really want to stop participating in this thread, and I wish people would stop talking about me and replying to my posts. Just talk about the issue, so that I can leave and you can all sort this out among yourselves. Please.

    Walton himself gets a LOT of slack, frankly because people DO care about his feelings.

    “A lot of slack” for what? What did I do? :-/

  29. Algernon says

    And as for saying shit you’d love not to have said in public. I’ll take my life for $1000, Alex.

  30. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    I’d also add that if anyone happens to google-stalk me or anything like that, and happens to pull up something horrible I’ve said in the past, I’ll gladly explain how I know better now, apologize, and recant.

    Not that that’s an explicit invitation or anything.

  31. Sally Strange, OM says

    So, I have four hours to decide whether I want my money back on the domain hosting service I’ve currently got… and I kinda do want my money back. Suggestions for good value on domain hosting, besides godaddy.com? Please? Anyone?

  32. Algernon says

    I’ll gladly explain how I know better now, apologize, and recant.

    I probably will have no recollection of saying it. This makes it easy to accuse me of saying things I did not. I have enough trouble keeping that kind of continuity.

    Since I spent a lot of my life getting very seriously punished by people who exploited this problem in me, I tend to react the other way now and offer up a “so what” instead. But it eats at me, just so everyone knows. Because some times I remember things and then I feel bad about them randomly, but there’s not much to do, particularly after you’ve apologized.

  33. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    At the risk of introducing myself as a motivated non-combatant, the debate has transferred itself to Twitter:

    No, it really hasn’t. That’s bluharmony complaining and her being corrected. That’s not part of this discussion about community standards at the Wiki, which is being held between members of this community, which bluharmony is not.
    Personally, I’m not interested in discussing with bluharmony any further. She is at best mistaken and inconsistent about the content and purpose of the article, and she is annoying the hell out of me.

  34. says

    The Sailor:

    I’m hoping Caine has good news.

    [takes short break from working] Hi Sailor, Alfie is doing okay. Me, Imma staying busy. Alfie’s hind foot is still very swollen, but he’s been moving around quite a bit. He ate some peas today and just had a lot of tea. He’s not wanting extra water anymore, I think that’s good. The pain meds are helping a lot. We’ll keep up the sub-q through Wednesday, then chat with his Doc again. So far, so good!

    Okay, back to work. I’m in the flow, man. :D

  35. Tethys says

    Adults

    I don’t think many children, or people who are not considered to be an adult in the legal sense, are posting here.

    I see that Esteleth has (yet again) been more precise and clear in writing what I was attempting to convey.

    Walton
    I agree with you that it is ethical to be concerned about privacy. I think a good faith effort has been made to address that by deleting personal information, and limiting the wiki to supported facts attributed to the nym that made them. Any retractions and rebuttals should also be added to the wiki.

    Can we talk of purple wool, or squirrels, or what good things happened today?

  36. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Can we talk of purple wool, or squirrels, or what good things happened today?

    Okay, it’s actually not a very good thing, but hopefully it becomes one: my friend is sad. He’s lonely and homesick. What shall I send him in the mail, besides chocolate and a nice note?

  37. Algernon says

    Adding:

    Most of the things I regret saying I said because people scare the fucking shit out of me some times.

    Really.

    Either that or I just forgot that anything I say about myself can and will be held against me… until I’m irrelevant to anything and no one cares anymore.

    This, I’m thinking, is my best angle.

  38. says

    Ing, you mean me? Spelling ALETHEA kthx. It’s not really a proposal, more a statement of principle. I’m not advocating any concrete action, in fact I’m a bit unsure here of what is right. I’d like to be a bit nicer to blu, but not to the extent of erasing history.


    About the German and Dutch religious thing – I suspect it might be similar to Australia. Most of us don’t care, so it seems a petty waste of time to get rid of the historical remnants. It can come back and bite you in the arse, though.

  39. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    [takes short break from working] Hi Sailor, Alfie is doing okay. Me, Imma staying busy. Alfie’s hind foot is still very swollen, but he’s been moving around quite a bit. He ate some peas today and just had a lot of tea. He’s not wanting extra water anymore, I think that’s good. The pain meds are helping a lot. We’ll keep up the sub-q through Wednesday, then chat with his Doc again. So far, so good!

    Okay, back to work. I’m in the flow, man. :D

    Yay for Alfie! Yay for working!

  40. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    I want some spiced coffee, is it worth trying to make some or will I regret it?

    I vote yes. I looked that up and it sounds amazing.

  41. First Approximation, Much Cooler In Cyberspace says

    The funny thing is by complaining and asking for the article to be deleted, bluharmony has drawn more attention to it than it would have ever gotten. Gotta love the Streisand effect.

  42. Ing says

    “A lot of slack” for what? What did I do? :-/

    *hums God Save the Queen*

    But everyone’s agreed to drop so we are.

    But no one in the game does

    Referencing the NPC chatter or some reputation with gameplay?

  43. Philip Legge says

    People need to have the freedom to disappear if they want to.

    If that is what they want, then why are they posting on the ‘net ?

    Yes, we’ll all be wondering that in a few decades. The internet defies humans’ evolved social intuitions, and I don’t think that “you misused a strange and unpredictable technology” is a great justification for anything.

    Having contributed some edits to the Wiki I think a sense of proportionality is called for, and I think if we are going to hang trolls out to dry for being trolls, we shouldn’t use their methods which usually involve taking the worst interpretation of a situation possible, or hyper-selective cherry-picking of comments and quoting them out of context (and refusing to acknowledge retractions). I think if the trolls deserve a page at the Pharynguwiki – and general notability should perhaps determine the level of detail the article goes into (as per Wikipedia, notoriety owing to a single event is viewed as a weak rationale) – then I think the standard should be an appropriate level of mockery or ridicule to set the frame, but then let the troll’s own words do most of the work in hanging them. And we should always source the quotations with links back to the original comment.

    I think there is a line where ridicule crosses into character assassination, and the worst of the Elevatorgate trolls (like Wally Smith, sockpuppet-master extraordinaire) clearly don’t know where it is: I think it’s extraordinarily unwise to lower ourselves to the gutter standards of those guys by joining them on their side. For example, last night I rounded out my education via YouTube by watching a good number of responses to Rebecca Watson’s 20 June video (as in, YouTube videos that were explicitly uploaded in reply to Rebecca’s). To do so was an extemely discouraging blow to my belief in the general good nature of people: not all, but a significant number were by turns savage, or vitriolic, or irrational, or unevidenced, or misogynistic/homophobic/racist, even among the supposedly avowed atheist YouTubers. I actually hope in years to come people will look back at these and think “wow, people actually said shit like this?” as the Zeitgeist moves towards equality. What is incredibly depressing (I didn’t look at the comments!) was that the angrier the denunciation was of a pretty mild comment about creepy behaviour, “guys, don’t do that”, the higher the “likes” vs. “dislikes” rose (e.g. 11,000 vs. 600 for one angry atheist manchild’s anti-feminist ranting).

  44. Tethys says

    CC

    Neko is a favorite. Go see her live if you get the opportunity.
    Her voice is even more amazing in person.

    Deep Red Bells*

    *unfortunately, this is the best youtube video I could find as far as sound quality goes. It was posted with racist video, please ignore that bit.

  45. says

    Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says:

    What shall I send him in the mail, besides chocolate and a nice note?

    I have a friend a lot like that, too. In addition to a nice note and chocolate, I just sent her an awesome water pistol. She LOVED it. YMMV.

  46. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    I’m hereby announcing my desire and intention to drop this subject. (I know I could just drop it, but I am a lot more likely to succeed in dropping it if I say something.) Obviously I hope you all discuss it and do what you think is best, but I don’t want to be part of the discussion anymore, at least for a while. I’ve been engaging in some compulsive behavior myself and while that’s not in any way related to this discussion, I need to reduce the number of stressful things I’m involved in immediately.

    So, a water pistol! I don’t know about that specific item, but a similar silly/awesome toy would probably be a good idea. We’re pretty similar people, he and I, so maybe I should just send him stickers and a coloring book… Haha.

  47. says

    CC, about your friend who is homesick – is there something that just screams ‘home’ (home being where ever friend is from)?

    I remember a friend who once came to visit with my cousin, they were from Michigan and came to SoCal. My friend was pining after SoCal after going home, so I sent a care package of different stuff, a kite, a kaleidoscope, chocolate, etc. The one thing he love the most? Two oranges, picked from my backyard tree. He ate them outside the post office. :D

  48. ad hominum salvator ॐ says

    Having contributed some edits to the Wiki I think a sense of proportionality is called for, and I think if we are going to hang trolls out to dry for being trolls, we shouldn’t use their methods which usually involve taking the worst interpretation of a situation possible, or hyper-selective cherry-picking of comments and quoting them out of context (and refusing to acknowledge retractions). I think if the trolls deserve a page at the Pharynguwiki – and general notability should perhaps determine the level of detail the article goes into (as per Wikipedia, notoriety owing to a single event is viewed as a weak rationale) – then I think the standard should be an appropriate level of mockery or ridicule to set the frame, but then let the troll’s own words do most of the work in hanging them. And we should always source the quotations with links back to the original comment.

    I find myself agreeing with these words and suspecting we may disagree about their implications. So I feel I should ask, precisely which words in which articles would you change and how? Alternatively just go ahead and change them.

  49. cicely, Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac says

    CC, send a rubber chicken.

    You can’t go wrong with a rubber chicken.
    -

  50. leepicton says

    Sometimes animals DO understand that the pain you are causing is helping them. After my first cat went outside in heat and was viciously clawed by assorted males in her flanks, one became severely infected and I could tell she was in a lot of pain. I snuck up on her and felt the area – burning hot. I ripped off the scab, and she screamed and ran away, but not before a river of green pus came flowing out. She somehow made the connection and every day for the next five days she presented her flank to me for draining, licking me the whole time. Then she was able to lick it herself and was right as rain in a few more days. They are sometimes smarter than we give them credit for.

  51. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    For anyone who ever wonders why I make my own swords, I present this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N4hprpRJhM

    The prevalence of cheap, tinny, overdecorated, badly made swords on the marketplace severely irks me. Even if all you want is a flashy wallhanger, buy a REAL sword, please. Leave it unsharpened if you must mistreat the poor thing so, but these cheap-ass tinny wallhangers are dangerous. Adding to the danger, most of these things come sharpened anyways. People are buying these things, swinging them around in their backyards and hacking at trees like their favorite Anime characters, and then having the tangs snap and razor sharp blades/blade fragments flying around. You can warn them that they’re for display only, but most people figure ‘Eh, that’s just so no one goes out and chops up a bunch of people on the subway.’

    Not only is it dangerous, it’s disrespectful to the art of the sword. Even most highly decorated historical examples still have a ‘function first, form second’ philosophy in their design, and the results to me are way more beautiful than these fantasy looking crystal-vampire-dragon abominations.

    Why do I insist on having a razor sharp short sword/dagger (depending on your definition)? Um, lots of reasons.

  52. Philip Legge says

    CC, your #561 noted. My post at #555 wasn’t really an attempt to prolong this debate, except that owing to Pharyngula’s commenters being distributed in almost every possible time zone, sleeping in until a reasonable hour on Sunday morning as per the non-gods-given-right of atheists denied me engaging while the discussion was running hot.

    Disclaimer: Wankery pseudo-philosophical reflection with a dollop of gross generalisation on top:

    “as the Zeitgeist continues moving towards equality”

    FTFM. I think amongst the on-line atheist controversies like Crackergate, Boobquake, or Expelled from Expelled, this current one has a noteworthy historical character (it certainly has exposed “deep rifts”). With the march of history societies worldwide are moving towards gender equality however slowly and despite reverses in some parts of the world; atheism is perhaps weakly respected or at least viewed neutrally in many parts of the world (though not in the more religiose parts of the US, say). There are considerable parts of the world where anti-atheism has currency, as well as anti-feminism. It should not have been surprising that an on-line atheist community and an on-line anti-feminist community should have some intersectional overlap – but we know that not all atheists have come to their current understanding of the world by way of reason. If the Rebeccadämmerung has been useful for one thing, it has been to identify people in the atheist community who on the issue of equality are moving with the times – and those who (hopefully) will soon be left behind or obliged to catch up.

  53. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    CC, about your friend who is homesick – is there something that just screams ‘home’ (home being where ever friend is from)?

    I can’t think of anything except pictures. Pictures are good, though…

  54. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    The coffee is good. Really good.
    Awesome! What kind did you make?

  55. Philip Legge says

    I find myself agreeing with these words and suspecting we may disagree about their implications. So I feel I should ask, precisely which words in which articles would you change and how?

    Well, since there’s no better means than leading by example, perhaps I should edit one of the troll articles besides blu’s? My contributions seem thinner on the ground than I recall (I think some of them are potentially missing owing to not logging in), so would you like to suggest a page that deserves some attention? I submit a diff of the sort of “objectivity with a hint of mockery” I would try to present: history of the rusty knife meme

  56. ad hominum salvator ॐ says

    So, considering CC’s 516,

    Anybody for deleting or keeping the article, who has not offered their opinion yet?

    Anybody changed their already stated opinion?

  57. Crudely Wrott says

    TLC @ 568:

    Why do I insist on having a razor sharp short sword/dagger . . . ?

    Because it’s a dull knife that will cut you?

    Not to mention pride in craftsmanship and a desire to honor that craft and those who developed it a lifetime at a time. ;^>

  58. chigau (almost) says

    Alethea H. Claw

    @Chigau – have you considered parsley pesto?

    Yes!
    Quite nice, it was.
    We cleaned-up the Shop and set up a grow-light.
    So, we have parsley, basil and a mutant tomato indoors for the winter.
    or until they croak.

  59. says

    Sally Strange,
    I use namecheap.com. No complaints, though I didn’t shop around too much. $10/year and $3(I thnk)/year for Whois guard.

    Hoard, if i’m getting ripped off, let me know.

  60. Philip Legge says

    *shrug* I was wondering if there was anything particular already on your mind, but if you just want to touch up any old article, any troll article in http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Category:People will do.

    Hi ad hominum s., I really didn’t have anything in mind, seeing as you know the wiki a hell of a lot better than most; but I can see some room for improvement there in that category.

  61. Therrin says

    I’m fine with Christmas.

    I’d be fine with it if it didn’t start November 1st and last two months.

  62. says

    Therrin:

    I’d be fine with it if it didn’t start November 1st and last two months.

    Word. The only thing I do for xmas these days is take part in the Advent Calendar at Moblog. Different photographers are signed up and each one gets a day in December to upload a photo they’ve taken and write whatever message they like. A lot of the photos and messages are interesting; my favourite is from a few years back, of homeless people sitting in front of a shop decorated for xmas.

  63. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    Crudely Wrott: Yeah, that’s a huge part of it. A dull knife is just a bar of useless steel with at best a fancy hilt.

    One thing that bugs me about all these flashy ‘tactical’ knives with bits cut out of the blade and weird angled edges is that swords and knives throughout history have followed certain designs and forms for a reason, and usually a very good reason. Also you get those overdesigned ‘tactical’ blades that attempt to be ‘every tool in one’, and generally suck next to a tool designed specifically for that task.

    I’d also point out that in the area of home defense, a blade never runs out of bullets. And speaking of bullets, it’s very easy to accidentally kill someone with a gun, but you’d need a pretty improbable set of circumstances in order to accidentally kill someone with a knife. But that’s kind of a moot point, because unless an intruder was armed, this would be my first line of defense: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/boneclub3.jpg/

    (I’ve made flimsier excuses to show off my arms, but not many. ;))

  64. says

    Oh, Chigau, about the parsley…when Jadehawk was here, she had a phenomenal amount of green onions (gorgeous ones, too) and what she did was to puree them with a little oil, then place the puree in ice cube trays. Once frozen, put them in freezer bags. They worked out fantastically when it came to cooking and it’s a good way to keep something long term, fresh and convenient.

  65. bro boxley OT says

    been gone for a while, the wiki article on blue whatever just paints her? as a fecking whiner which is heavily amplified by blues comments. If there was clear identification and can be proved to be placed there by her, leave it up. If someone else put it there take it down. If not sure, take it down. I dont remember this much phuss about phil and his whining

  66. says

    ad hominum salvator ॐ,

    Restricting something like that to account-holders may give a false sense of security. If all you want is for google to overlook it, a robots.txt file will do (also not a Wikia option; Wikia exists for profit so it must be googleable). But getting a user account is always going to be trivial.

    AND

    Technical issue: Wikia just doesn’t work that way. Social issue: we probably want the recipes, book recommendations, Pharyngula memes and such to be publicly available, so that newcomers have easy access, because logging in is a PITA for oldtimers, and so that some things are intentionally googleable (here I’m thinking of the Stephen Bishop article).

    Oh, I’m trying to find the right balance here. The Wiki should still be easily accessible, but I do think it would be better if the site wasn’t googleable. The information on the wiki is all relevant with context to Pharyngula. I mean there are tons of freely accessible recipe sites on the internet. The recipes on the Pharyngulawiki become relevant seen in context of Pharyngula. So I think reducing access to the wiki wouldn’t be a problem.

    However, I do understand that it wouldn’t be possible with Wikia, so we have to see if it’s worth the effort moving the site.

    Alternatively, if consensus was to keep the wiki at its current location, I would welcome if we could establish some clear guidelines on how the deletion process should be handled.

    Policy there is that when it is not perfectly clear that a person meets the Wikipedia:Notability guideline, their own wishes as to inclusion should be considered in the deletion discussion. And anyone can request deletion of anything by initiating a deletion discussion.

    Yes. And I’ve been arguing that if a person has been the subject of a Pharyngula blog post, they’re more notable than when they’re involved in an argument in TET or other parts of the blog comments.

    Matters are more complicated that Bluharmony has been mentioned by PZ in a post, but under a different name. Actually weren’t it for the Streisand effect, I wouldn’t even have connected the two.

    Zomg, please no. We don’t need another rehashing of the elevator thing. The discussion becomes too much stress on people who really don’t need it.

    Well, we do have the article on the Slimepit. Maybe a merge is in order.

    My person opinion on this matter:

    without having a more comprehensive list of trolls from the Slimepit, or an article about Elevator Gate, I do think that an article that focuses on Bluharmony alone might be overkill.

    Though that could just be due to the fact that the Wiki is still small. As it continues growing, one would expect a more comprehensive coverage. Maybe creating this TrollWatch page as suggested by Monado would be a good first step.

    So: move it to the Slimepit and/or the not yet created TrollWatch page, maybe reduce the description to a couple of sentences and only one or two quotes. If more quotes are needed, links should do the trick.

    I think the last paragraph as it currently stands could also fall under the rubric of potentially identifying information. Technically speaking, Bluharmony hasn’t, at least not to my knowledge, linked the info given in that paragraph to her nym. Though the fact that she does have some standing in the local skeptics community might actually be an important factor in the EG debate, so I’m a little bit conflicted about this.

    But all in all, also taking into account the argument re diminishing returns, I’d still say

    Delete the original article as per not-NOTABLE enough as long as the key parts on the incident in question are preserved in a form that is both accurate and acceptable to the editors involved.

  67. says

    TLC, as a person with a large collection of sharp, pointy things, I know a lot of people who make knives and swords. Me, I just know how to use ‘em. ;) I’d love to commission one from my friend Bronxelf, but I can’t afford her just yet. One of these days.

  68. Jules says

    Sure, it’s all stuff you’ve said in public, but wouldn’t you be at least a bit creeped out if you were arguing with someone and they pulled out a list of everything you had ever said to them or anyone else on the subject ever?

    I do this to people in meatspace because I have a really good auditory memory. In fights with partners, I’ve been known to recite near-as-we-can-tell verbatim past arguments. (Not quite everything ever, but a lot.) I’ll go ahead and say that no one likes it.

    Regarding being held accountable, as Classical Cipher said, that is not incompatible with forgiveness or growth. It’s accepting that others are not obligated to move at your pace or even with you at all. Ignoring the implications of how you were doesn’t change the impact of your past. Permanent punishment? No. Think about it every single day? Most likely not. But that doesn’t mean it gets erased either.

    Completely unrelated, my new neighbor has a puppy! She’s adorable and almost the size of my larger, full-grown dog. I made sure to make friends today. Gotta cozy up before she outweighs me.

  69. cicely, Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac says

    TLC, I’ve always wanted an umbrella stand full of spears. Sharp spears.
    -

  70. chigau (almost) says

    Caine
    Purée with oil is good!
    I made (and froze) some not-quite-pesto out of only basil flowers and olive oil.
    It’s very strong but works nicely as a seasoning for tomato sauce.

  71. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    Ah cicely, one of my laments is that I can’t seem to find a way to make a good spearhead. I’m thinking of investing in a cold steel samburu or boar spear.

    The spear does not get the love it deserves these days. Most soldiers couldn’t afford a sword and would have been decked out in a spear and a dagger or seax (or whatever the local equivalent of the seax is), and the spear was the recommended self-defense weapon when travelling in those days. I simply feel incomplete without one. Really, no one who loves and understands edged weaponry should be without, the spear was ‘the original’. After all, the spear killed the mammoth.

  72. bro boxley OT says

    Caine #588 drama on old job, new gig that consumes 50+ hrs a week so have been only keeping up on facebook, otherwise I would get nothing done. Nice to be in a job where I am energized and excited. Sucks not to have health insurance. COBRA was 1024.00 a month so 3k thru the end of the year, ans I get all new deductibles so 6k for 3 months before one thin dime gets covered. forget that. Talked to the local providers, got a good rate for regular stuff and if anything bad happens can fly the family to anchorage for IHS treatment. Cheaper than procedures locally. Anything happens to me I will suck it up.

  73. Sally Strange, OM says

    Urgh, I have an upset stomach. I ate a big bowl of lentil soup for dinner, with plenty of cheese in it, and ever since, I’ve had gurgling guts. I haz a sad.

    MikeG, thanks for the tip. You’re definitely not getting ripped off, at least based on the research I’ve been doing.

  74. bro boxley OT says

    #592 can you knapp flint? I have “ahem” artwork on the wall one 50lb bow some arrows, an atlatl with stone pointed spears, A stone war club, and a deer horn knife all within arms length. Also ulu in the knife drawer. Most bought but I do play with flint. After I get ahead I want to build a forge in the back yard and buy a decent anvil

  75. says

    Chigau, yeah, I do too. Catmint grows wild all over our property, so we dry lots and lots and lots and lots of it, tea and happy cat drugs. For herbs, a seal-a-meal is a good investment. Mister got one last year to seal up and freeze his hops. If you blanch basil leaves, then seal them, they’ll last ages in the freezer.

  76. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    Bro Boxley: I’ve been meaning to teach myself. First I must learn how to find flint.

    To tell the truth though, some of those flint blades, whilst very VERY functional, are almost too beautiful for me to use. Maybe for light butchering and fish gutting, MAYBE, but aren’t flint blades, by their very nature, extremely brittle?

    I remember reading a book about ‘Arms and Armor’ as a kid in the school library, and it had photos of spearheads and flint knives knapped by Australian bushmen from discarded bottles. Such gorgeous work!

    Are there any good field identifiers of flint I should be on the lookout for? Are there even flint deposits in the Fraser Valley? Is there a way one can go about buying it, and is it worth the price?

    Once I’m over the hurdle of ‘finding flint’, I’m pretty sure I can start to figure out the rest.

  77. says

    Last I checked, there were posts of mine from the mid 1990s on the old GEnie online service still floating around on the net, which is kinda creepy since GEnie wasn’t on the net. This shit never goes away.

    Do the wiki entries get saved by the internet wayback machines?

  78. chigau (almost) says

    TLC
    Flint-knapping is not limited to “flint”.
    Any stone with a good fracture pattern will flake for tools.
    Quartz (some, not all), quartzite, chert, chalcedony and (of course) obsidian and many others.
    Varieties of all can be found in the Fraser Valley.
    There are ALOT of knapping web-sites.

  79. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    OK Chigau, I suppose you’ve left me no excuse. As soon as I get a window of good weather, my quest to go back to the stone age for a bit begins. I’ll be skipping the bronze age entirely, as molten metal is too dangerous for my liking.

  80. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    SC: By ‘spearhead gum’ I assume you mean that mixture of pine pitch and charcoal (and something else I believe) used to affix stone spearheads?

    The kind I’ve always really wanted was a medieval socketed style (I could make one if I could find an old fashioned socketed chisel), but you, chigau, and bro boxley have made it clear that I should make a stone one too.

    My skills will advance a step forward, by taking several hundred million steps back. I like it.

  81. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    My skills will advance a step forward, by taking several hundred million steps back. I like it.

    Derp, I mean several million. Cavemen and dinosaurs, LOL. Blame the weed.

  82. ad hominum salvator ॐ says

    I would welcome if we could establish some clear guidelines on how the deletion process should be handled.

    I think this is how we handle it, right here. It’s more or less the Wikipedia practice. Everybody does what they think is sensible. If we disagree, we argue about it. When necessary, a disinterested admin gauges the community sentiment and acts accordingly. In this case, that means some admin who is not CC, not Walton, and preferably not me, but probably me since I’m apparently the least interested among the three and I don’t think any other admins are paying attention.

    Maybe creating this TrollWatch page as suggested by Monado would be a good first step.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold

    I think the last paragraph as it currently stands could also fall under the rubric of potentially identifying information. Technically speaking, Bluharmony hasn’t, at least not to my knowledge, linked the info given in that paragraph to her nym.

    http://pharyngula.wikia.com/index.php?title=Bluharmony&diff=5351&oldid=5350

    Do the wiki entries get saved by the internet wayback machines?

    Apparently not the one at archive dot org, but I’m sure they end up in other collections.

    +++++
    A couple more arguments for deletion:

    This is the first and only article we have on someone who does not want an article and is not banned from Pharyngula. (Her not being banned was the basis for my opinion that she has standing to ask for deletion here.)

    PZ is not going to be erasing her comments from Pharyngula, so the arguments that we’d be erasing history are not really accurate. We’re talking about when and how to collate history into secondary sources; erasure is simply not up for discussion, as PZ is the keeper of the primary sources.

  83. bro boxley OT says

    #606 start with the easy stuff. Find a decent rock in the shape of a good brain basher without too much thickness. Get a piece of hardwood with a fork that is appropriate and take the bark off. Soak some rawhide strips then tightly tie the stone to the forks. Let dry. I cheat and soak the wood in wd40 for a few days. Decorate with a few beads and feathers so the “man” thinks its art. You dont want a weapons charge when you are just having fun.

  84. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    Oooh, stone tomahawk/warhammer! There are a few ways I could go about that.

  85. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    Weapons charges are unlikely, btw. We used to be cursed with a horrid neighbor, one who’d call the cops on us for absolutely any little thing she could think of. She had the cops over to our place during our earlier experimentation with leafspring swords. They saw my whole operation, they asked me if I was planning on selling these things or using them to hack people up, or just making them for fun, and I told them it was just for fun and art, and then they wished me a good day and left. That was that.

  86. says

    SC: By ‘spearhead gum’ I assume you mean that mixture of pine pitch and charcoal (and something else I believe) used to affix stone spearheads?

    No. Where I’m from there are arrowheads around and we learned about them in school, but I don’t want to kill anyone with them.

  87. bro boxley OT says

    #610 is that what the fooferaw is about? Since by definition lawyers are hired guns, unless there are pictures of bestiality or dead bodies of their sexual partners their reputation suffers no harm. I check the win/loss ratio of a lawyer plus read their past motions to determine usefulness, not their opinions in internet space. Do you search the political opinions of the plumber you need or the accuracy of their soldering?

  88. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    Another time, hehe, a cop busted me on the railroad tracks with my Atlatl. I was hunting rabbits, but when he asked me what it was I just told him I was doing target practice out in the booneys where there weren’t any people around to get freaked out or in the way. He gave me a stern warning, more about how ‘dangerous’ the tracks are (I always hear trains coming long before I see them and get well out of the way, but I don’t want to argue with a cop while bearing a weapon, I felt I was already getting away with enough) than about the weapon itself, and sent me home.

    SC: I’m sorry if I gave the impression that THAT’s why I like weaponry and stuff so much.

  89. bro boxley OT says

    followers of boardwalk, I just saw the episode with the scene of the black family where the family dinner was in celebration of a med student sparking the daughter. Dad stipulates that dinner shall be traditional. Wife does not serve traditional rice and beans. His statement about being the “field nigger” is historically placed. I do like the way they display the paperbag method of class in the black community. Some people I know in meatspace are very much in denial about that segment. The old fart black folk I yak with know that is how it is, apparently things haven’t progressed that far since since those days.

  90. Jules says

    FWIW, my comment about erasing was deviating into a broader scope. I think quick references are good, and I think holding people accountable for what they say is good. In this particular situation, I lean towards keeping it, but not terribly strongly. It’s not as if I use the wiki beyond recipes. I was just waxing philosophical about the big picture ethics of it all.

    It certainly wasn’t being used as a distraction from my work either. Not one bit.

  91. says

    The spear does not get the love it deserves these days. Most soldiers couldn’t afford a sword and would have been decked out in a spear and a dagger or seax (or whatever the local equivalent of the seax is), and the spear was the recommended self-defense weapon when travelling in those days. I simply feel incomplete without one. Really, no one who loves and understands edged weaponry should be without, the spear was ‘the original’. After all, the spear killed the mammoth.

    It’s 2011. FFS.

    You want edged weaponry? I give you my nails.

  92. Tethys says

    TLC

    You can knapp anything that has what is known as a chonchoidal fracture I have seen gorgeous tools knapped out of petrified wood and agate.

    Look for rocks that have a smooth, almost glassy feel on a chipped surface.

    Flint can be many different colors. It also varies from completely opaque to somewhat translucent.

    Check out some of the galleries on this site.
    flintknappers

  93. ad hominum salvator ॐ says

    Do you search the political opinions of the plumber you need or the accuracy of their soldering?

    Both if I have the time to do so.

    There are actually some small business owners around here who made a big deal of declaring their public support for the Tea Party. I recall some off the top of my head, and I have a list of the others. I would not knowingly do business with them.

  94. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    It’s 2011. FFS.

    You want edged weaponry? I give you my nails.

    Yes, SC. And here in 2011, everyone fetishizes the sword and acts like it’s the most awesome weapon ever, while completely ignoring the contribution of the cheaper and easier to repair but less glamorous spear.

  95. ChasCPeterson says

    How fucking clueless are you today Walton ? Really, I have never seen you being quite such an idiot.

    lol. I have.

    I’m now sold on Neko Case.

    I know the feeling (sigh).

    Knapping: one word: Obsidian.

  96. julian says

    I’m sorry if I gave the impression that THAT’s why I like weaponry and stuff so much.

    I think it’s impossible to admire a weapon without at some point admiring its killing power. Sure people have other reasons (the beauty, the historical significance) but I’ve never meet a weapon enthusiast who didn’t at some point go off, voice in complete awe, at how incredibly efficient this or that device was at killing.

  97. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    Holy shit Tethys, I’m just on the first gallery and already I’m wondering if those are even natural materials. That’s just gorgeous either way. Does knappable rock actually come in colors like that?

  98. says

    Yes, SC. And here in 2011, everyone fetishizes the sword and acts like it’s the most awesome weapon ever, while completely ignoring the contribution of the cheaper and easier to repair but less glamorous spear.

    I don’t fetishize the sword, ignoring anything. In fact, I find this entire discussion ridiculous.

    Carry on.

  99. says

    Julian:

    but I’ve never meet a weapon enthusiast who didn’t at some point go off, voice in complete awe, at how incredibly efficient this or that device was at killing.

    Maybe the people you know are assholes. I can talk about swords all day and never once mention them in relation to killing. *shrug* That’s if we’re talking about how different ones were made, methods and so on. If I’m talking about fencing or knife fighting, the conversation’s gonna be different.

  100. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    I think it’s impossible to admire a weapon without at some point admiring its killing power. Sure people have other reasons (the beauty, the historical significance) but I’ve never meet a weapon enthusiast who didn’t at some point go off, voice in complete awe, at how incredibly efficient this or that device was at killing.

    Well, this is true. I’d be a liar if I wasn’t a bit in awe of the efficient killing power of these various implements. But that doesn’t mean I wanna use them on people. Having accidentally slashed my own thumb with my survival sword right to the bone (could have severed it easily with more force), I can say that the idea of actually attacking a human with it except in the most dire of self defense situations kind of gives me more than a bit of horror.

    But that’s why it’s a ‘survival sword’. It also chops wood and holds its edge well, and was used to butcher the deer we brought home. It’s a reasonable size for a large blade to take into the woods, and I always bring it camping for that purpose. Its function as a ‘weapon’ is just one of many.

  101. bro boxley OT says

    SC total agreement a sword (or a 357 magnum)is rather a useless tool against a well thrown rock, add a sling and you get some range in.
    I remember trying to teach a pfy about how to shoot a 357 revolver and planted a 6ft 2×4 at about 10 yards. I hit the stick with several rocks, he completely missed with the revolver

  102. says

    SC:

    Ah – art. OK.

    Look, you don’t like it, fine. You don’t get it, fine. You can stop sticking your nose in the air over it. Working with metal, stone and other materials, yeah, it’s valid as an art form, even if it’s in the form of a sword.

  103. bro boxley OT says

    ooh, watching “from dusk till dawn 3″ Ambrose Bierce is the protagonist, should be good mental masterbation

  104. julian says

    It’s 2011. FFS.

    You want edged weaponry? I give you my nails.

    *checks own nails. sees they are still not there*

    I’ll stick to my knife.

    And here in 2011, everyone fetishizes the sword and acts like it’s the most awesome weapon ever, while completely ignoring the contribution of the cheaper and easier to repair but less glamorous spear.

    What about the awesome and entirely versatile axe? Damn, I need some firewood. Oh wait! I have an axe. Crap, I need a strong sturdy weapon that can stand up to repeated use. Oh wait! I have an axe.

  105. Ray, rude-ass yankee says

    bro boxley OT@599, One of my dreams is to learn blacksmithing and old time metal working skills. Of course the idea in my head my not match up with reality, but I would love to try it someday when work, life and money allow.

  106. bro boxley OT says

    “I shot your noose off I will do the same for your churizo” thats a line to remember in my list of really cheezy lines

  107. Tethys says

    Does knappable rock actually come in colors like that?

    Cherts are often very colorful. I think most of the blades in those galleries specify the type of stone they are made from.

    Mookaite is a colorful variety of jasper from Australia.

    I have no affiliation with the above link.

  108. says

    Look, you don’t like it, fine. You don’t get it, fine. You can stop sticking your nose in the air over it. Working with metal, stone and other materials, yeah, it’s valid as an art form, even if it’s in the form of a sword.

    So let’s be clear: It’s like a tea set?

  109. julian says

    Maybe the people you know are assholes.

    Ha!

    No maybe about that. They’re assholes. Complete and total assholes.

  110. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    Ray (and Julian): I dunno if you saw the railroad spike tomahawk I made, I posted pictures in an earlier thread at some point. If you can find yourself a high-carbon railroad spike (Look for a little HC stamped on the head), I made mine with an anvil, a fire pit, a hammer, pliers that were good for grabbing the spike, and a cold chisel. It took me a full day’s work, but a lot of time was wasted keeping the fire hot and rolling doobies. I simply followed an internet tutorial, it’s pretty easy to find them with a bit of google-fu.

    The tomahawk is very efficient for firewood and I find it easier to use than a normal hatchet because it’s light and doesn’t tire my arm out. It holds an edge surprisingly well for what it’s made from, and sharpens up easily with a file. One of my favorite things I ever made (another is the survival sword). I have no formal blacksmith training of any kind, just the aforementioned tutorial.

  111. Sally Strange, OM says

    So, what, I’m a barbarian if I find “Deadliest Warrior” occasionally entertaining? Of course weapons enthusiasts are going to admire the efficiency of the weapons they are interested in. That’s what weapons are for. Killing people. Doesn’t mean they’re about to go out and hack people into pieces, just in the same way that a martial artist waxing poetic about a certain kind of kicking technique is not advertising hir intention to go out and beat people up. Sheesh.

  112. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    So let’s be clear: It’s like a tea set?

    And a dessert topping.

  113. says

    Julian:

    No maybe about that. They’re assholes. Complete and total assholes.

    :D I love talking metal composition, folding, forge techniques all that jazz. Recently, Mister got into working with metal-ceramic composites, which is cool stuff.

  114. says

    Unless bluharmony is in some way essential to Pharyngula culture (and I for one have never heard of her before), let’s just delete the page and let someone else recreate it with minimal info if they so desire.

  115. says

    And a dessert topping.

    I love you.

    ***

    Of course weapons enthusiasts are going to admire the efficiency of the weapons they are interested in.

    Or the beauty?

    That’s what weapons are for. Killing people.

    People?

  116. Ray, rude-ass yankee says

    The Laughing Coyote@651, Don’t remember if I saw that, but sounds cool! Lacking a fire pit and anvil I’m limited. I’m sure there’s a way to build or acquire such, but time and money are short right now. As I said above: someday.

    Damn, people: edged weapons, knapping, casting and forge techniques? SWOOOOON! Metal/ceramic composites? Double SWOOOOON!

    I want to be just like y’all if I decide to grow up.

    I’m for bed though, work in the morn.
    G’night all.

  117. says

    http://pharyngula.wikia.com/index.php?title=Bluharmony&diff=5351&oldid=5350

    I meant the bit about the pics of PZ’s mother. A name other than Bluharmony was used for that.

    This is the first and only article we have on someone who does not want an article and is not banned from Pharyngula. (Her not being banned was the basis for my opinion that she has standing to ask for deletion here.)

    Well, there are trolls that haven’t been banned. Some members of the MRA brigade would come to mind. But I think I’m in agreement with you. As long as there is a process of discussion with an attempt at a consensus, I’d be fine.

    Unless bluharmony is in some way essential to Pharyngula culture (and I for one have never heard of her before), let’s just delete the page and let someone else recreate it with minimal info if they so desire.

    Your own ignorance is not a yardstick. A place you could start with is this thread.

    I’d be in favour of putting a link to this thread on the list of known trolls that were just added to the Slimepit article.

  118. Tethys says

    TLC

    You have awesome lithics native to your neighborhood. source

    Nephrite aka Jade

    Ca2(Mg,Fe)5(Si4O11)2(OH)2: Large commercial quantities of good quality nephrite occur in B.C., extending from the northern provincial boundary, southeastward to the lower region of the Fraser River. The nephrite occurs as small to very large boulders, some weighing more than 15 tons (one specimen was estimated to weigh 80 tons). The best quality (in terms of colour, and solidity) comes from the central to northern part of the province. Known sources of nephrite yielding commercial quantities are being mined in the Atlin Lake, McDame, Dease Lake, Wheaton Cr.- Turnagain River,

    Mt. Ogden- Fort St. James areas. In 1970 a 23 ton boulder from the Mt. Ogden area, was exhibited outside the B.C. pavilion at Expo 70 in Osaka Japan.

    Nephrite from the Bridge River- Fraser River area is highly variable, even within the same boulder. Vivid hues are rare, with predominant colours being dark green, grayish-green, olive, and yellow-green. Some material is so dark that it appears black, but true black has not been found.

  119. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    Very interesting Tethys. Need more research, but I think I recognize some of those rocks. Someone told me they knew a river out here where you can find garnets, but he had lots of stories.

  120. Tethys says

    Here is a site with good photos of nephrite river cobbles.

    BC Jade

    They are quite valuable. According to the link, he finds them here-

    gravel bars near Lillooet, British Columbia are naturally polished by the silt laden water of the Fraser River.

  121. Sally Strange, OM says

    Of course weapons enthusiasts are going to admire the efficiency of the weapons they are interested in.

    Or the beauty?

    That too.

    That’s what weapons are for. Killing people.

    People?

    Along with other animals, I suppose.

  122. says

    OK, I see you managed to fill up a whole thread in the meantime.
    So, I’m desperately trying to catch up…

    Soldiers burn copies of Bill O’Reilly’s book

    So, one thing they’re not short of is toilet paper…

    Do we have a standard colour gradation chart set up for that? With the approximate correlation between level of embarrassment and shade acheived drawn from studies with a suitable sample size and control group? We should be rigorous, afterall…

    I reject the notion that turning red has anything to do with feeling embarrased or ashamed. I automatically tur red when my friends tell me to. It’s a great sport for them to bet in advance what shade I’ll end up with.
    Yes, we’re all well over 15, why are you asking?

    kristinc
    Sometimes, even the bestest men can be aweful mansplainers.
    Funny thing is, not thinking about the more complicated things (I have only rudimentary knowledge about engines), I get it right quite often…

    Stevarious

    I recently obtained (as a gift…I’m wondering why I feel compelled to qualify this?) the Official Harry Potter Cookbook that has recipes for every single food item mentioned in any Harry Potter book.

    OK, now I know what I want for Christmas.
    Black pudding is actually OK, even though not my favourite. German Blutwurst is a bit richer, but still not my favourite.

    Walton

    Speaking of lengthy sacraments, I’ve sometimes wondered whether Berlusconi – who is, of course, ostensibly Catholic – ever goes to confession. And, if so, how long it takes.

    I suppose the priest’s got a checklist:
    Lying: check
    Sex with underage prostitutes: check
    Cursing at people who object to that: check
    And after all, custom-writing your own constitution is not a sin.

    We’ve had an influx of German commenters here lately, I wonder if they know of the classic music of bands like Ton Steine Scherben or Die Aerzte ?

    I knew Die Ärzte before they split up. I have them on LP. With Ton Steine Scherben I made the experience that if you scratch your name into the top of the CD, you damage it. Given that this happened at a time when 1 CD = 1 month of pocekt money, it was a bitter experience.

    For myself: caught up to 260

  123. julian says

    Lesson from this thread : “lesser troll” is not a title to aspire to.

    Alternate lesson: In case of Zombie Apocolypse, find pharyngula bunker. No shortage of individuals with useful skills within those walls.

  124. MelissaF says

    /delurks. Whee!! The All Blacks won the World Cup! I don’t normally watch rugby but it was actually exciting. The French played a fantastic game.

  125. KG says

    but I’ve never meet a weapon enthusiast who didn’t at some point go off, voice in complete awe, at how incredibly efficient this or that device was at killing. – julian

    Seems to me the aesthetic qualities of weapons are inseparable from their efficiency at killing (or at least, winning fights), because when a weapon has beauty, it’s primarily the kind that results from form following function.

    Which doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with appreciating those aesthetic qualities, any more than there is in appreciating those of a great white shark.

  126. says

    It looks like the misogyny juggernaut over at ERV has decided that Jane Caro should be their new feminism poster child. I’ve sent her an email, to see whether she really wants to be associated with that hate mob. I doubt it.

  127. julian says

    because when a weapon has beauty, it’s primarily the kind that results from form following function.

    That may be true of swords, knives and the more classical weapons (maybe because they’ve become such an important part of mythology and history we’ve come to idolize those shapes) but when it comes to guns some of the best I’ve seen are also the ugliest. More recent guns are easier on the eyes but that seems to be more of a move by makers to make them more pleasing to look at rather than anything to do with killing effeciency.

    Which doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with appreciating those aesthetic qualities, any more than there is in appreciating those of a great white shark.

    I agree but it’s incredibly unsettling (for me at least) to let my mind wander and imagine just what this weapon would have done to someone in combat. (Much like picturing the jaws of some large predator wrapped around my neck) Honestly though, that unsettling feeling just makes me all the more reverant.

  128. Algernon says

    Art conversation?

    Pass.

    My yeast didn’t rise last night:( That sucks. I guess I killed it. The vat seems healthy though so it’s just the batch I was going to make rolls with that seems to have suffered.

  129. says

    Sorry I overreacted about the spearhead thing. I don’t have a problem with the aesthetic appreciation of weapons (though it’s complicated). It’s that TLC’s discussion of his penchant for killing had me picturing him stalking through the woods with his pretty spear, looking for some animal to kill.

  130. Minnie The Finn, avec de cèpes de Bordeaux says

    Ohai.

    Finland checking in.

    New meds may be starting to work, I’m feeling social for a change. Up to my pretty li’l ass with work, as usual. Luckily, uploading stuff to the client’s ftp is slooooooow, so I’m multitasking just to tell I’ve missed you all =)

    Otherwise, things are quiet. Pygmy #2 has started dating, and generated a nearly 300 euro phone bill in two months. I’m afraid I cannot afford to keep him anymore, so if any of you might need him for scientific experiments or such, let’s negotiate.

    Pygmy #1 is still his nerdie self with no foreseeable prospects on the dating front, luckily. He made some kickass wok for our Sunday lunch today.

    Oh, and conga rats to Brother Ogvorbis for the OM (how the hell didn’t you have one already???); congrats to All Blacks for their victory, too.

  131. KG says

    when it comes to guns some of the best I’ve seen are also the ugliest. – julian

    That doesn’t contradict what I said: that when a weapon is beautiful, it’s primarily form-follows-function beauty. I agree, there are disturbing aspects to admiring both weapons and large predators.

  132. KG says

    I find old scientific instruments (and indeed some recent ones) beautiful in a similar way to weapons, but without the disturbing aspects. Medical instruments from pre-anaesthetic days, though, are perhaps even more disturbing – close to instruments of torture in that regard, where the disturbance is so strong I can’t assess them aesthetically.

  133. says

    KG,
    I’m with you there on the old medical equipment. We saw a collection of old ob/gyn tools/torture devices at the Mütter museum in Philly. *shudder*
    I was unable to see their aesthetic qualities once I read what they were.

  134. says

    I can’t criticize here. As you know, I personally find monarchy beautiful; but plenty of monarchs in history have certainly killed people (wars, the death penalty, and so on). And I find many religious ceremonies and much religious music* beautiful, and yet I know that organized religion in some of its forms has killed and harmed plenty of people in history. There’s not much difference between that and finding a weapon beautiful.

    (*Good religious music. I’m thinking the Mozart/Sussmayer Requiem, for instance, or the Bach/Gounod Ave Maria, or Victorian hymns. I do not refer to Graham Kendrick and other purveyors of ecclesiastical schmaltz.)

  135. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, liar and scoundrel says

    Bro boxely:
    Oh, Boardwalk! I’m fascinated about how they’ve handled race so far and I am totally glad that they haven’t either 1) ignored how African Americans were treated in the 20s or 2) left black characters out all together.

    With Chalky, if he was white, he would have been running Atlanic City.

    In other news, I think I’m gonna put Hans Gruber the sourdough starter to work and attempt to make bread today. Wish me luck!

  136. Squigit says

    Good morning, Endless Thread! It’s a beautiful fall day here (oh, how I love fall and how I miss being near Shanendoah with its gorgeous fall colors!).

    Anywho, I have something I’d like opinions on:

    I work for a clothing retailer (yay! employment!) and whenever we get damaged goods, they get thrown out. Except, that is, for damaged clothing. Anything with tears, broken zippers, etc gets thrown into the “charity” bin and donated to places like Goodwill.

    This bothers me. It reeks of “the undeserving poor” attitude.

    My question is whether or not I should say something to my manager. I haven’t been there long, but I have a good reputation. I feel like if I do say something, I should be able to offer an alternative, but I can’t think of one.

  137. Dhorvath, OM says

    A Minnie, A Minnie, Yay!
    Glad you are doing better, hope it keeps improving.
    How is your partner working out at the business?

  138. Carlie says

    Fall colors – I had a beautiful drive down the Hudson river this weekend (except for all the other cars). Definitely past peak, but there’s still a lot of prettiness, and it was bright and sunny out. Lovely.

  139. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, liar and scoundrel says

    Squigit:

    Except, that is, for damaged clothing. Anything with tears, broken zippers, etc gets thrown into the “charity” bin and donated to places like Goodwill.

    This bothers me. It reeks of “the undeserving poor” attitude.

    My question is whether or not I should say something to my manager. I haven’t been there long, but I have a good reputation. I feel like if I do say something, I should be able to offer an alternative, but I can’t think of one.

    When I worked for Wet Seal, damaged and returned clothing would be donated to women’s shelters around the country. It was fixed, laundered and returned to “like new” condition before it was given away. I’m under the impression that this isn’t unusual for clothing retailers.

    I didn’t have a problem with this, although I know that company was only doing it for the tax break.

    Anyway, I’m wondering if you’re working for a large clothing chain (and although voicing your opinion isn’t bad thing) your opinion just might not matter in the long run. If your manager has some say about how the clothing is donated, maybe you could open up a dialogue about how and why the donations are handled (which would be more likely in a mom ‘n pop clothing store).

  140. says

    Anywho, I have something I’d like opinions on:

    I work for a clothing retailer (yay! employment!) and whenever we get damaged goods, they get thrown out. Except, that is, for damaged clothing. Anything with tears, broken zippers, etc gets thrown into the “charity” bin and donated to places like Goodwill.

    This bothers me. It reeks of “the undeserving poor” attitude.

    I wouldn’t say so… it may be that pretentious middle-class customers wouldn’t buy the slightly-damaged clothing in question, but it may still be perfectly wearable. It’s certainly better than throwing it all away and wasting resources, surely? And if I were on welfare or a low income, I’d like to be able to get clothes at a price I can afford, even if they’re a little bit damaged.

  141. Minnie The Finn, avec de cèpes de Bordeaux says

    Dhorvath:

    the partner is working his pretty li’l ass off this weekend as well =) Luckily he’s the fastest learner I’ve ever met. We reeled in a humongous contract, it’ll keep us busy (and well-fed) over the winter.

    How is the bike business? And life generally?

  142. Squigit says

    Audley:

    It was fixed, laundered and returned to “like new” condition before it was given away. I’m under the impression that this isn’t unusual for clothing retailers.

    I’ll ask whether or not the clothing is repaired before being donated, but something tells me it’s probably not.

    Anyway, I’m wondering if you’re working for a large clothing chain (and although voicing your opinion isn’t bad thing) your opinion just might not matter in the long run.

    It’s certainly nationwide. It’s one of those stores where we get the merchandise from larger, more expensive chains that they couldn’t sell or overstocks or whatever. I should also note that though thrift stores sell things other than clothing, nothing else that we sell which is damaged (even if it’s just furniture with a scratch on it) gets donated. It is only damaged clothing.

    Walton:

    I wouldn’t say so… it may be that pretentious middle-class customers wouldn’t buy the slightly-damaged clothing in question, but it may still be perfectly wearable.

    Which is why it isn’t marked as “clearance” and put back on the racks. We do have some things that we clearance if they have pulls and whatnot in them. But no retailer should be selling damaged goods.

    It’s certainly better than throwing it all away and wasting resources, surely?

    Which is why I was trying to figure out an alternative before saying anything.

    And if I were on welfare or a low income, I’d like to be able to get clothes at a price I can afford, even if they’re a little bit damaged.

    We have clothes on clearance racks that are undamaged and are between $2 and $10…so it’s not that people can’t get undamaged clothing at low prices, my problem is that the clothes are being donated because they’re damaged.

  143. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, liar and scoundrel says

    Squigit:

    We have clothes on clearance racks that are undamaged and are between $2 and $10…so it’s not that people can’t get undamaged clothing at low prices, my problem is that the clothes are being donated because they’re damaged.

    I see your reservations about the donations, especially since they’re being donated for resale. Like I said, find out what happens to the clothing when it goes out to be donated* before you do anything else.

    *A nationwide chain may have you send the clothing to a central location, where it’s handled and distributed from there.

  144. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, liar and scoundrel says

    Okay, Hans Gruber the sourdough starter has been separated and fed and now I’m off to the market to pick up yeast and flour* (and breakfast for Mr Darkheart (if he’s lucky)).

    I’m super stoked to finally be able to use my mixer’s dough hook. XD

    *Who attempts to make bread before checking to see if she has the essential ingredients? I do! I do!

  145. Sili says

    Hans Gruber?

    Do you keep your sourdough in a little tank?

    –o–

    Everything but me survived the flight(s) home – even the dropspindle. And my headache is subsiding now – whether due to the coffee or the paracetamol, I do not know.

    I ended up giving the maplesyrup to the catsitter in place of a souvenir, so I’ll have to get some for myself next year.

    My account is in the red – as expected – but luckily not above the arranged overdraft. And anyway it was so worth it.

    Next year in Rhinebeck.

  146. Lauren Ipsum says

    Research question:

    I am looking for the bible verse where Jebus says that his return or the kingdom of heaven will open up or puppies will fart rainbows or whatever is going to happen in the lifetimes of his disciples. Is it Matthew 24:34?

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Is there another verse or verses which address this, or is this the only one?

  147. Algernon says

    This bothers me. It reeks of “the undeserving poor” attitude.

    It doesn’t bother me! I buy my clothes there often. Income aside, why not buy things cheaper if you can? Hey, I learned that while people will judge you on your looks there’s no shame in cheating that game because it’s complete bullshit.

  148. Algernon says

    so it’s not that people can’t get undamaged clothing at low prices, my problem is that the clothes are being donated because they’re damaged.

    If it makes you feel better it is unlikely that they are being donated because they are not good enough for better people but because it shows up on the accounting when you have product that doesn’t move and donations can be deducted.

    Just sayin’

  149. Algernon says

    Shit, otherwise people are being asses for donating used clothing too. I mean don’t the poor deserve nice new things? How insulting!

    Meh… some of us folks out here are just fucking thifty.

  150. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, liar and scoundrel says

    Sili:

    Do you keep your sourdough in a little tank?

    ?

    I have been flinging the discarded bits of starter out of a third floor window*.

    *Yeah, not skyscraper height, I know. But it’s the highest window I’ve got!

  151. First Approximation, Much Cooler In Cyberspace says

    re: weapons and beauty

    I just finished reading Surface Detail by Iain M Banks and in it it is mentioned how Culture Minds design warships to be aesthetically displeasing in order to discourage militarism in the population.

    I have found some weapons in video games to be beautiful, but most of them would probably be very inefficient in meatspace.

  152. changeable moniker says

    [Notes in passing that the SR-71 never killed anybody except for one unfortunate test pilot. Goes back to re-reading Skunk Works.]

  153. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, liar and scoundrel says

    Do you keep your sourdough in a little tank?

    I do. Two of them actually.

    I only have one starter, which I keep in a resealable plastic container.

    Still not sure what Hans Gruber has to do with a tank, though. :-/

    Anyway, the dough is made and (hopefully) rising. *fingers crossed fingers crossed fingers crossed!*

  154. Sili says

    [Notes in passing that the SR-71 never killed anybody except for one unfortunate test pilot. Goes back to re-reading Skunk Works.]

    I didn’t have time to board the Intrepid, but I did catch a picture from the peer.

    I spent my time shopping instead, and was still late so I kept poor triskele waiting.

    (I got a merino scarf – sorry Woolies.)

  155. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, liar and scoundrel says

    The dough is rising! RISING! IT’S ALIVE! MWAH HA HA HA HA HA!

  156. says

    I’d like to see the next step being that people simply get ten floating holidays to use as they wish. But the socialists would probably object because families wouldn’t get their time off together. Also, I suppose long weekends are good for tourism, same as summer holidays.

    It’s also practically impossible to get rid of the 2-month school summer holiday, which in Canada and the U.S. was originally to let kids help with the haying and hoeing. In Australia, which had sheep instead, I believe that the summer holiday is one month.

  157. says

    Christmas is now a vestigial religious holiday. It has evolved from its original purpose into a new, secular purpose while operating at all times as a holiday in general.

  158. says

    So, now I’m back
    I’m not going to involve myself in the wiki-discussion, I’m really lacking time to read and think about it.

    Holidays
    Yeah, I admit to being one of those lefties who actually want the Sunday to be a day of piece and rest.
    Life is hard enough for families anyway. Actually those people I know whose jobs require them to work on Sundays are often those who argue most passionately for a generally free Sunday.
    With all the other ones, the religious always say that the non-christians should go to work if they don’t want to go to church, but they are easily shut up if you ask them if they also support that the German national holiday should only be free for citizens.

    As for the secularization: Most christians can’t remember what they’re actually calebrating. So, if all they can remember is that Pentecost is a christian holiday somehow, should they be considered to be celebrating a religious holiday?

    Esteleth

    Observant Jews and Muslims, having to ask (and risk getting denied or facing social stigma) getting their days off are not receiving this privilege. This is a bad thing.

    Well, in Germany they do get some privilege, like they are privileged in getting free days at their holidays and they are allowed to take their children off school those days.

    pelamun

    - religious education is NOT mandatory in public schools

    Well, it is only mandatory in Germany in the sense that the state has to offer some form of it (remember, in Berlin they teach “Werte und Normen”, or something like that) and non-christian children don’t have to attend if it’s christian.

    julian

    I think it’s impossible to admire a weapon without at some point admiring its killing power. Sure people have other reasons (the beauty, the historical significance) but I’ve never meet a weapon enthusiast who didn’t at some point go off, voice in complete awe, at how incredibly efficient this or that device was at killing.

    No, I don’t think so.
    I’m a huge fan of sharp pointy objects.
    I admire the craft and the skill, I admire the beauty.
    Yes, with my kitchen knives I admire their ability to cut the flesh* off the bone.
    With my bow I loved how it allowed me to relax and concentrate at the same time. I miss shooting (with a longbow). Actually, one of the things I like best about the longbow is the very fact that it is particularly bad at killing (unless you have a whole army) so I have no worries about the kids accidentially killing each other.
    *intentional

    Caine
    Well, Nanny Ogg’s Cookbook is good, but two of them would look stupid on the shelf.

  159. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    I’ve Been Bold and deleted blu’s page for the reasons sg cites, bringing the links over to the Slimepit page for now so they’re not lost. I still like the Trollwatch page idea, but I lack the mental resources to figure out how that’ll work at the moment. I hope someone else does it.

    I’ve gotta be good today, y’all. Don’t let me do nonsense instead of translating and/or studying German.

  160. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, liar and scoundrel says

    Speaking of holidays:
    Therrin:

    I’d be fine with it if it [Xmas] didn’t start November 1st and last two months.

    Oh man, I’d love it if this were the case. Stores around here have been carrying Xmas crap since the end of September. It’s a little unsettling to see Halloween and Xmas merchandise sitting side-by-side on the shelf.

    I can haz one holiday at a time, plz? kthxbai.

  161. Squigit says

    Algernon:

    If it makes you feel better it is unlikely that they are being donated because they are not good enough for better people …

    That’s exactly why it’s getting donated: it’s not good enough for the customers of the store. And if you had read my post, you would have seen this:

    I should also note that though thrift stores sell things other than clothing, nothing else that we sell which is damaged (even if it’s just furniture with a scratch on it) gets donated. It is only damaged clothing.

    All other damaged goods get “zeroed” out and thrown away. We threw away some scrap booking paper a few days ago because we no longer had the package. It could have been recycled or sold for something around $1.00. Instead, it was tossed in the garbage.

    Shit, otherwise people are being asses for donating used clothing too. I mean don’t the poor deserve nice new things? How insulting!

    Meh… some of us folks out here are just fucking thifty.

    There’s a difference in donating clothing because it no longer fits the owner and in donating something because it is broken.

  162. Algernon says

    Look, I didn’t miss anything, Squigit. I just think you’re being a sanctimonious bore.

    As a person who buys stuff from those places and who has been very very poor before, what the fuck is your problem?

    It’s a damned shame they don’t donate the other stuff too and prefer to waste it by throwing it out.

    Also, a lot of people know how to make repairs to clothing. Imagine that!? Or even re-use the fabric for other things.

    So yeah, come off it.

  163. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    The only one of my weapons that’s actually made a few kills is my tomahawk (a domestic rabbit and several domestic chickens.)

    In that sense, I definitely admire the efficient killing power. One hit, and the animals I was slaughtering were dead. No suffering, kicking, or struggling, just humane one-hit-deaths.

    It’s that TLC’s discussion of his penchant for killing had me picturing him stalking through the woods with his pretty spear, looking for some animal to kill.

    I’ve never had much luck in the woods. Rabbits prefer certain habitats, the right combination of open places to browse and cover to bolt to. The train tracks were great, but after the cop talked to me I’ve been taking a break from that place. I’m trying to find a way to get permission from farmers to hunt their back fields, because of course that’s a rabbity shangri-la right there.

  164. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    I’ve never had much luck in the woods.

    I chuckled. You know SC probably wasn’t terribly concerned about where you were doing the animal-killing, right?

  165. says

    Algernon:

    Also, a lot of people know how to make repairs to clothing. Imagine that!? Or even re-use the fabric for other things.

    Which is why Squigit is wondering why those clothes aren’t put on clearance racks rather than being donated. I get the concern, although, like you, it doesn’t bother me much. I’ve been shopping in thrift stores for decades.

    Personally, I think it’s better they get donated rather than thrown out.

    Also, note to Squigit: unless these clothes are going directly to shelters or something, don’t assume they’re going to the poor. If they end up in thrift stores, well…lots of well off people shop in thrift stores.

  166. Algernon says

    Besides, goodwill doesn’t give clothing to the unclothed as their charity. They provide services, employment, that sort of thing (or purport to) which is typically the case.

    Anyone can shop there. Poor, rich… anyone. Some people just enjoy thrifting. The clothes are getting resold to those people, just those ones who shop there. Some will be needy and some will not, but the clothing is just a profit generator for the charity and a place to employ some at risk people.

  167. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    All of my favorite hoodies came from the thrift shop. Can’t say I like the thrift-shop smell, but that comes out quick.

    I’ve never liked throwing out my clothes when they get ripped and have a bad habit of ‘wearing clothes until they fall off me’. I’m sure it doesn’t help my image much.

  168. Algernon says

    lots of well off people shop in thrift stores.

    This.

    Shopped there when I was comfortable, poor, and now that I’m comfortable again I still do for fun (and costumes).

    Rich side of my family loves thrifting too. Money spends the same, goes back into the charity, etc.

  169. Amusedbylife says

    OMG! just got done perusing ur site. HILARIOUS! Some of the best stuff I’ve seen in a long time. Thanks, I needed a good belly laf.

  170. Algernon says

    Which is why Squigit is wondering why those clothes aren’t put on clearance racks rather than being donated.

    This seems so obvious though. They are not generating any income for charity if they are on the clearance rack, are they?

  171. says

    Algernon:

    Rich side of my family loves thrifting too.

    Oh yeah. It’s one of the ways people with money keep their money. My family was…very comfortable. That’s where I learned thrift store shopping, when I was very young.

    Amazing what you can find when you feel like digging around.

  172. Moggie says

    Giliell:

    Actually, one of the things I like best about the longbow is the very fact that it is particularly bad at killing (unless you have a whole army)

    I give you “Mad Jack” Churchill, who fought in WWII armed with a longbow and a claymore. This guy would have made Chuck Norris pee his pants. I can’t really admire him, though, since he also went into battle armed with bagpipes, which I’m sure is a war crime under the Hague Conventions.

  173. says

    Algernon:

    This seems so obvious though. They are not generating any income for charity if they are on the clearance rack, are they?

    Nope. I get it too, but I think a lot of people simply don’t know how it works.

  174. Squigit says

    I’m not assuming that everyone who shops in thrift stores are poor, I know better. However, the idea behind a thrift store (such as Goodwill, which is pretty much the only one here) is that poor people shop there because other places are too expensive. That’s sort of the accepted purpose where I’m at. Things are donated because they can’t be sold, or people just want to be charitable. And it’s not that the clothes are being donated that bothers me, it’s why they’re being donated that bothers me.

    But thanks for your input. I talked to another associate today who is bothered by it for the same reason, so maybe there’s hope and we can figure out what to propose as an alternative if it’s the case that the clothes aren’t being repaired before being donated. :)

  175. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    Moggie:

    Churchill gave the signal to attack by cutting down the enemy Feldwebel (sergeant) with his barbed arrows, becoming the only known British soldier to have felled an enemy with a longbow in the course of the war.[1]

    Cool!

  176. Algernon says

    Amazing what you can find when you feel like digging around.

    It really is!

    One last thing, I don’t know if goodwill does but some places train people in repairs, or that’s how it used to be at least. I know because one of my great aunts used to donate time teaching disabled people how to do alterations and small repairs.

  177. says

    Gilliel,

    Berlin falls under the Bremen Clause as per Basic Law, Art 141.
    I know that you can opt out of religious studies classes, but I object to any religious groups playing a role in public education. Of course the mainstream religious studies curriculum has become some kind of general morals/religion overview kind of subject in many states, but I think churches should kept out of this completely.

    Unfortunately, as long as those articles of the Weimar Constitution still remain part of the Basic Law, that’ll never happen…

    Classical Cipher

    I think it’s a great solution. And the troll list on the Slimepit page can double as Trollwatch page for the moment I think. Or adding something to the Dungeon, or the troll page. I don’t really have the mental capacity for it right now either.

    Viel Spaß mit Deinen Deutsch-Hausaufgaben. Wenn es Probleme geben sollte, frag nach!

  178. Esteleth says

    Ooh arts and crafts! Just my cup of tea!

    I knit. I started while I was a student at The Den of Feminist Indoctrination and Iniquity and I’ve never really stopped. It is great! I tend to work slowly, but I am very methodical. I’m the kind of knitter who, upon realizing that I made an error 10 rows ago, will unravel in order to go back and fix it. I’m also on Ravelry (using the same ‘nym as here).

    I like lacework. Here is a pic of two recent projects, both scarves. I like them both.

    I also spend a lot of time baking and cooking. If I can point to any positive thing to have come out of my fundie-lite upbringing, it’s that I am a decent cook. Yes, the reason why I was given this education (be a good little wifey) is bogus – but in my mind, the feeling of warm bread dough squishing through my fingertips is a truly glorious thing. Sheer joy. I rediscovered this a few years ago, when my doctor put me on a very strict diet when I was on chemo. One of the things that was n the forbidden list was store-bought bread unless I knew exactly what was in it. So I started baking, and I’ve not looked back.

    I’ve experimented many times with trying to get sourdough to take off, but I can’t seem to get it to work. Sadface. I truly love sourdough. Any tips, Algernon?

  179. Algernon says

    Any tips, Algernon?

    Some of the talent here got me started, but I guess I just got lucky. I split my original batch into several (it took me a while to get a rhythm going so I wouldn’t end up pouring a bunch of yeast out every week) and I found a few recipes that are great for burning up a cup or two of dough quickly.

    I dried some, figuring if my yeast dies out I can use that to start again, but so far so good. I did have one batch that got a really unpleasant funk to it so I threw it out. That’s why I decided to keep two small crocks instead of one big one– figured the likelihood of both getting sick was lower.

    I try to feed mine every week, and keep it in the refrigerator in between feedings. I usually feed it a cup of water and a cup of flour, but for some recipes I’ll put it on a diet of cream and flour first.

    I’m not sure, but it seems like once you get a colony established it’s pretty hearty.

    Every couple of months I pour whatever is in each crock into a bowl, feed it, cover it and let it bubble, and clean the crocks with fresh water just to get the hard stuff off of the sides.

  180. says

    Squigit:

    the idea behind a thrift store (such as Goodwill, which is pretty much the only one here) is that poor people shop there because other places are too expensive.

    That is not the idea behind Goodwill at all. The mission of Goodwill, from the beginning, was to train and hire (mentally and physically) disabled people to repair goods, work in the store, etc.

    There are always idiots who think “oh, those stores are for the poor”. So what? That doesn’t mean that what your store donates isn’t doing any good. I think you’re being rather snotty over the whole thing. The donated clothes,once repaired are still new, right? So it’s a good deal for whoever the fuck ends up with them.

  181. Squigit says

    Amazing what you can find when you feel like digging around.

    One of my favorite things to find at thrift stores is cookware. All kinds of crazy stuff. Books are ok, too, but it’s been my experience that they’re usually trashy romance novels. Sometimes, I’ll find some gems, but usually the used bookstore is better for that.

    Old movies, too.

    Just to be clear, though, I wasn’t making a dig at thrift stores or the people who shop there (among whom, I am one). It’s just that the way damaged clothing is handled made me feel as though it wasn’t good enough for the people who shop at my store (because it’s broken) but is good enough for those who shop at thrift stores (with the underlying assumption being that thrift store shoppers=poor).

  182. says

    I really don’t know what the right answer is re blu’s wiki page.
    I didn’t write it and didn’t know it existed until this discussion. If I had contributed, I would have added a chart with two columns – one with a claim from her, and the other with statements from her contradicting that claim. (Many of these would be from the “More dog whistles” thread at B&W.) Her falsehoods are documented. Her claim that the entry about her is defamatory and untrue and that people are lying about her there is false. If it’s taken down, it would be a gesture of kindness – and one that should be extended to anyone who uses their real name or whose nym is linked to it. It would not be because it violates any wikia terms, because it doesn’t.

    Her nym has been connected, by her, to her real name. On the other hand, she knew this when she made the comments it references. If her public comments linked by her to her professional name hurt her career, whose fault is that?

    When I did talk about her, it was in response to her comments, and especially those about me. I have not talked about her for quite some time. She continues to write about me, though, and she recently asked on Twitter if anyone knows who I am (I have a screen shot). This crosses a line, and is outrageous. She has now acknowledged (after weeks of willful disregard for the truth) that I did not “accuse” her of being dyslexic. But she continues to misrepresent my comments at the wiki. I did not say she’s a sloppy writer because she’s Russian, or that she’s a lousy writer and a lousy communicator (as far as I can recall). These statements are untrue, and she should stop making them.

    I want to be kind and ask to remove the page even though it’s truthful. At the same time, I don’t want to remove documentation of her dishonesty if that means letting her continuing dishonesty stand, and I’m appalled by her attempt to out me.

  183. Algernon says

    (with the underlying assumption being that thrift store shoppers=poor).

    Why tone troll a donation? If it isn’t something that can be resold, Goodwill pays a salvage company to dispose of it. This is the truth.

    Your people’s attitude is just that, some useless airs put on. At the end of the day, it doesn’t freaking matter how they feel about any of it.

  184. says

    Squigit:

    It’s just that the way damaged clothing is handled made me feel as though it wasn’t good enough for the people who shop at my store

    *sigh* It’s standard for damaged goods to either be returned or gotten rid of somehow. All thrift stores actively look for clothing and large chain thrift stores, such as Goodwill, actually contract with local businesses for unsaleable clothing.

    This is standard practice. The thrift stores get goods, the retail store gets a tax write off. It’s fucking business. (The reason that the odd bundle of scrapbook paper and the like don’t get donated by retail stores is because 1) the thrift store didn’t contract for it and 2) it’s not an item which can be donated in bulk and written off.

  185. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    That is appalling, SC. I think I remember her a bit better now.

  186. Esteleth says

    My biggest problem with sourdough starter is getting it started. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve put yeast, flour and water together, waited with high hopes, and then had to throw out a gross-smelling orangey ball of crud.

    Sigh.

    I’d keep trying, but I was blowing through yeast and flour at a stupid rate. I could make a good loaf of my honey oat whole wheat bread and munch happily on that instead.

  187. Algernon says

    Honestly, SC, that person is kind of scary and if it were up to me I’d delete anything (excepting the original comments which are on the blogs where she made them) if it reduced contact with her or connection to her in any way.

    Some people are just too much trouble.

  188. Algernon says

    My biggest problem with sourdough starter is getting it started.

    Hmmm… have you ever tried the method with grapes? I had been working with some starter I made originally, but at some point a friend of my mother’s gave me an old established starter. So I did luck out there.

    Also, some one could send you some dried flakes I guess. Anyone around you bake?

  189. says

    No suffering, kicking, or struggling, just humane one-hit-deaths.

    It’s all relative. No hits would have been even more humane (animane?).

    I’ve Been Bold and deleted blu’s page for the reasons sg cites, bringing the links over to the Slimepit page for now so they’re not lost. I still like the Trollwatch page idea, but I lack the mental resources to figure out how that’ll work at the moment. I hope someone else does it.

    Oh. Never mind. :)

    [Notes in passing that the SR-71 never killed anybody except for one unfortunate test pilot. Goes back to re-reading Skunk Works.]

    Yeah, I know. Stupid reference. I don’t know why I always bring it up in discussions of weapons. It’s military, and pretty, but several weapons are, too.

  190. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    I dunno Algernon, I lean towards letting it stand. It’s useful to have documentation, and if she’s trying to out other people, why should info she put up herself get deleted?

    From what I remember of Bluharmony, she was one of the best examples of a passive-aggressive tone troll, saying nasty bullshit in the politest of words. It was a while back though, I could be misremembering.

  191. Algernon says

    (The bit that starts “In New Castle, Delaware”.)

    Wow. Just wow.

    The nerve of some women. Poor guy can’t catch a break!

  192. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    I’ve Been Bold and deleted blu’s page for the reasons sg cites, bringing the links over to the Slimepit page for now so they’re not lost. I still like the Trollwatch page idea, but I lack the mental resources to figure out how that’ll work at the moment. I hope someone else does it.

    Oh. Missed this one.

  193. Danaleigh says

    However, the idea behind a thrift store (such as Goodwill, which is pretty much the only one here) is that poor people shop there because other places are too expensive. That’s sort of the accepted purpose where I’m at. Things are donated because they can’t be sold, or people just want to be charitable.

    To emphasize what others have already said:

    When I was on the board of a homeless shelter a few years back, we started a thrift shop. Its purpose was not to give poor people a place to shop, it was to sell things to financially support the shelter’s operations. The idea was that *people* would shop there, period. And believe me, some of the well-off people in town did shop there because they supported the shelter’s, and thus the thrift shop’s, mission. They also donated things they didn’t want anymore…sometimes very nice things…in hopes that the thrift shop could sell them and benefit the shelter. Instead of donating things that “can’t be sold,” we wanted people, or businesses, to donate things that we *could* sell – the thrift store couldn’t survive and raise money for the shelter if people didn’t. Now, if your employer is donating things that *nobody* would want to buy or wear, then they misunderstand the purpose of a thrift store and the charity would be right to tell them they’re not interested in the donation. But if the company has already decided that these things might not meet their standards for what they believe their customers paying full retail price and expecting a certain quality for that will buy, but they are still wearable and saleable, why is it bad for them to donate those items in hopes they can be sold in a different context and do some good at the same time? Should they simply throw them out instead? Or put them on a clearance rack where the company makes no profit, gets no tax deduction and does no good for charity? If it helps, don’t think of the items as being donated *to* the poor, think of them as being donated to *benefit* the poor, that’s more like the truth.

  194. says

    Esteleth, check the temperature at which your yeast is incubating. You might need to keep it a bit warmer or something to encourage the yeast to outcompete undesireable spores.

    Thrift stores can donate or sell what they don’t sell to charities that distribute them in poorer countries. Our local Value Village bundles up their clothing and sells it for fibre to be used in paper or insulation. I once went by when the on-site cloth-munching truck was there, shredding bales of clothes on the spot.

  195. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Honestly, SC, that person is kind of scary and if it were up to me I’d delete anything (excepting the original comments which are on the blogs where she made them) if it reduced contact with her or connection to her in any way.

    She really is. She’s appallingly two-faced, as well. She keeps attempting to ingratiate herself with us, then going into these rages where she calls names and threatens to sue everybody, then obsequiously apologizes for everything. I’ve been very clear from the beginning and I am being clear now that everything that I wrote in that article was true, especially that she is dishonest. I’ve deleted the article despite that because 1.) we have no use for it while she’s not here, 2.) we can restore it if she comes back, and last and least 3.) it’s really upsetting her. She’s pissed me off a great deal with her outrageous behavior since I dropped the discussion earlier, but I’m going to try to hold to this decision because it’s reasonable.

  196. ad hominum salvator ॐ says

    I’ve Been Bold and deleted blu’s page for the reasons sg cites, bringing the links over to the Slimepit page for now so they’re not lost.

    As I said, my major concern is that contributors should not be discouraged by worry that their writing will be deleted against their wishes without fair discussion by the community.

    To belabor the point, I want to reemphasize that CC was the original author of the page, and CC and bluh were the only major contributors, with small additions from me. The only other editor was someone who removed some of the personal info that bluh added. So CC’s deletion of the page is just a case of the author changing her mind.

    Other keep/delete disagreements will still require community discussion.

  197. says

    Honestly, SC, that person is kind of scary and if it were up to me I’d delete anything (excepting the original comments which are on the blogs where she made them) if it reduced contact with her or connection to her in any way.

    Some people are just too much trouble.

    Thanks. I know. I struggle with this, but I just can’t give in to threats – of outing or of litigation – when there’s a principle at stake. People who want to do bad things will, but I’m counting on the community to discourage this behavior.

  198. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    So CC’s deletion of the page is just a case of the author changing her mind.

    This is true, but I would like to emphasize that I changed my mind because of the discussion had here. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that my eventual decision was in line with the general direction of the conversation.

  199. Tethys says

    Reposting due to borked link.

    TLC

    BC Jade

    Chigau

    Flintknapping is not just for “weapons”

    Exactly! There are also stone tools for cooking/processing game, sewing, digging, woodworking, and some are purely decorative.

    I find knapping rocks to be a simple and economical method (and much quieter), compared to rock saws.

  200. says

    CC, it seemed to me that Blu’s insistence on adding personal info was to bolster her whine about the references/links and criticism. I don’t think she should be allowed to get away with the crap she’s doing, but any wiki entry will probably see her adding personal info then making a huge case about it.

  201. ad hominum salvator ॐ says

    And now a bit of bluh’s comedy of errors.

    19 August 2011, “I am a lawyer”

    Later that day, the wiki page is written.

    22 October 2011 [paraphrased from memory, it’s in her twitter feed somewhere], They finally changed my wiki page when they learned I was a lawyer.

  202. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, liar and scoundrel says

    I have made bread.

    I feel strangely accomplished. :P

  203. says

    Why is Sir Mark Thatcher carrying a squid?

    Walton?

    I have no idea, I’m afraid. Aside from his ancestry, he’s best-known for the attempted coup in Equatorial Guinea, in which I doubt that cephalopods played a particularly significant role. I suppose it might be a metaphor of some kind.

  204. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    Very nice, Tethys. I think I may go for a nature walk now. The fraser river isn’t within walking distance, but the vedder is.

  205. Ogvorbis, Temorarily Disconnected From My Computer And Can't Sigh In says

    Where’s the ‘cullis?

    The Great Poopyhead still fails to realize that, like steam locomotives, portcullises are old machines and, since they are old, they require far more maintenance than the usual machinery. Oiling and greasing a locomotive is just as important as oiling and greasing a portcullis. Though I will admit that, while troll oil and cupcake grease work on a porcullis, they do not work on a steam locomotive.

  206. Algernon says

    They finally changed my wiki page when they learned I was a lawyer.

    No no, they just took my advice as the reigning Queen of England.

  207. says

    By the way,

    Ing: You would suck as a lawyer.

    blu: This is a joke, right? I am a lawyer, and an occasional mediator….

    Ichthyic: this does not preclude your sucking at it.

    I certainly wouldn’t hire ya.

  208. The Laughing Coyote (Papio Cynocephalus) says

    They finally changed my wiki page when they learned I was a lawyer.

    Sounds like a lawlsuit to me.

    (couldn’t resist)

  209. Tethys says

    Wow, I am currently looking at various Mayan erratics. I am in awe of the objects that were created without electricity and diamond carving burrs.

    I’m surprised to find an example of dental bling.

    check out my grillz

  210. Sili says

    Um, that’s Adam Werrity?

    Thanks, CM.

    Have I mentioned lately that I love The Thread?

    It’s much easier to ask here, than do the research.

    So … why is Adam Werrity carrying a squid?

  211. chigau (almost) says

    Tethys
    As one who has logged many dozen hours engaged in what I call “flintknapping” (others may call it “making a large pile of flakes and chunks”), I can tell you that it is flat-out impossible to knap a torus.
    It MUST have been aliens.

  212. says

    Of course, I’m opposed to that, too, but I didn’t want to leave the impression as if everybody was forced to sit through compulsory RE, regardless of what their own non/religious affiliation was.

    But there is peer pressure. In the region where I went to school, we knew exactly who the Catholics were, and mocked them for being Catholic. But they also got a decidedly more religious type of R.E. than the rest of us, both Lutherans and the non-religious.

  213. says

    Actually BH’s tweets make me so angry for their blatantness that I’d want to jump onto twitter and start tweeting against it, or include a more copious note on the wiki. Probably not wise not to do either thing. Maybe add a remark: “known to make contradictory statements”, and the source the hell out of it…

  214. opposablethumbs, que le pouce enragé mette les pouces says

    Is it true that surgeons sometimes use obsidian scalpels for eye surgery because they are so much sharper than the sharpest steel scalpels?
    .
    .
    There is a highly toxic MRA called “arguably MRA” still wanking and spewing venom all over the circumcision thread. http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/10/19/ritualized-child-abuse-circumcision/comment-page-1/#comment-114628 Is it a known troll under a new nym, does anyone happen to know?