Yesterday I wasn’t quite sure what to expect when I finally hit publish on “How I Unwittingly Infiltrated the Boy’s Club & Why It’s Time for a New Wave of Atheism.” The cynical part of me wondered why I had wasted five hours of my Saturday for the same torrent of hateful comments. How masochistic was I becoming? But the optimist in me hoped that just enough people would want to change this movement with me.
I can honestly say this is the first time that waking up to over 500 comments on a post that mentions feminism has filled me with absolute joy.
95% of the comments I’ve received have been overwhelmingly positive. That…that has never happened before. Usually if I can hit 50% supportive comments I feel like I’ve done well. But not only were you guys supportive, you were excited. I didn’t expect you to have come up with names and logos for the third wave…and I really didn’t expect you all to basically agree. We tend to be like herding cats, but not this time.
You called for Atheism+.
Logo suggestion by One Thousand Needles
Logo suggestions by Jadehawk
It’s perfect. It illustrates that we’re more than just “dictionary” atheists who happen to not believe in gods and that we want to be a positive force in the world. Commenter dcortesi suggested how this gets atheists out of the “negativity trap” that we so often find ourselves in, when people ask stuff like “What do you atheists do, besides sitting around not-praying, eh?”
We are…
Atheists plus we care about social justice,
Atheists plus we support women’s rights,
Atheists plus we protest racism,
Atheists plus we fight homophobia and transphobia,
Atheists plus we use critical thinking and skepticism.
It speaks to those of us who see atheism as more than just a lack of belief in god. danielmchugh summarized how I feel perfectly:
Religion is responsible for generating and sustaining most of the racism, sexism, anti-(insert minority human subgroup here)-isms… it gave a voice to the bigotry, established the privilege, and fed these things from the pulpit for thousands upon thousands of years. What sense does it make to throw out the garbage bag of religion yet keep all the garbage that it contained?
I can’t help but see social justice as a logical consequence of atheism. I’m for getting rid of all the garbage.
As for the next steps on how to get rid of that garbage, I’ll make another post with my ideas soon. Feel free to use this post to discuss how you feel about A+. I don’t think it needs to be an official name – I want to improve the atheist movement, not create a splinter faction or something. But it’s fabulous marketing-wise and as a way to identify yourself as a progressive atheist, or whatever term you want to use. I know I’d love for people to start wearing A+ pins and Surlyramics so I know who I want to chat with.
EDIT: How could I forget to mention that commenter Pteryxx deserves the credit for the A+ idea? A bajillion internet points to you!
566 comments
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Surly Amy
August 19, 2012 at 1:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I love this.
joviality
August 19, 2012 at 1:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is incredible! Love this idea and will be passing it along & using it myself! I think you’ve started something here Jen.
VeritasKnight
August 19, 2012 at 1:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’ve already said on Lousy Canuck…we need to make this a movement. Yesterday. I can think of so many people who’d contribute.
And my bow.
Josh, Official SpokesGay
August 19, 2012 at 1:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The minute the SurlyRamic is out I’m buying it.
kevinlyda
August 19, 2012 at 1:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I like the logo suggestion by One Thousand Needles.
As for the name in general, I give it an A+. :)
nicole introvert
August 19, 2012 at 1:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Seconded!
Jim
August 19, 2012 at 1:13 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Brilliant! Thank you for articulating this.
ShinyBlueSpaz
August 19, 2012 at 1:13 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I have never been more excited about an atheist, agnostic, humanist, or skeptic idea. I can’t wait for this to get moving and I look forward to watching this movement unfold! ^.^
kevinlyda
August 19, 2012 at 1:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
More seriously, I like that it’s a positive direction. Rational thought *for* something besides just the protection of rational thought.
People have talked about atheism missing things like potluck dinners like they might have had in their religious communities. Well, here’s a reason to have potluck dinners. Get together, have dinner and talk about ways to support, foster, encourage, protest for equality and respect. Not just for atheists, but for people who are being unfairly blocked from reaching their potential.
PatrickG
August 19, 2012 at 1:20 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
While reading the hundreds of count me in posts was uplifting, it made it harder to find Jadehawk’s suggestions (I know one got eated by moderation due to links) and other contributions. So thanks for making another thread specifically for that. :)
Yeah, I got nothing, just super excited!
'Tis Himself
August 19, 2012 at 1:20 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I like the name A+ and I like Jadehawk’s red A+.
PatrickG
August 19, 2012 at 1:20 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Also meant to say that of the three in this post, I like OTN’s the best.
LawnBoy
August 19, 2012 at 1:22 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Amy,
When we consolidate on a logo, I will SOOOO buy a Surlyramic with the logo on it.
Just sayin’
vernonbalbert
August 19, 2012 at 1:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I have co-opted the first A+ symbol for my Facebook profile picture. I had the A for my picture before but I wanted to show my support for you and all other feminist atheists as well so I changed it. I hope I’m not violating anybody’s rights by doing so.
Brian Engler
August 19, 2012 at 1:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’ve already commented on your last post that I support the One Thousand Needles logo concept (http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/08/atheism/apluslogo/), and I reiterate that here. Perhaps the most important reason is that it builds upon the already very widely recognized A logo popularized by the RDF Out Atheist campaign. I also think it’s the most attractive of the three posted here and that it would make an awesome Surly. Finally, I think any concern about the implication of pride-fulness in any sort of A+ symbol is misplaced. The + added to the ubiquitous script A symbol points both towards the future and towards expanding the movement’s definition beyond mere non-belief and in the directions of social justice, feminist & LGBT ideals, critical thought, and the other areas you and your commenters have pointed out. Let’s start using it now!
Abbie
August 19, 2012 at 1:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is all very exciting. Who is working on The Atheist Mystique?
Teleprompter
August 19, 2012 at 1:24 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This idea excites me and blows my mind. So much potential to galvanize people for something tangible, something necessary, and something uplifting. A big, positive goal that gives atheists and agnostics a place to aspire toward – not nihilism or apathy or abstraction – but a more loving, just, compassionate world. I like A+.
LawnBoy
August 19, 2012 at 1:24 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I like the green logo.
I think OTN’s is likely too associated with Dawkins, and doesn’t the RDF have a group called A+?
Alan E.
August 19, 2012 at 1:29 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A+ is a great start for blood donor drives. Fits marketing and charitable needs while hopefully shedding positive (see what I did there?) light on the image of atheists and atheist groups. Another venture is to fundraiser for schools, but the pushback will be a little more difficult unless specific education topics (Evolution, Sex Ed, etc.) are avoided. I’m not saying that they should be avoided, just that it would be easier to raise funds and get more positive reaction than to create a controversy, or have someone make mountains out of molehills for you.
Abbie
August 19, 2012 at 1:32 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
One thing about the logos- wouldn’t it be best to have a design that works in silhouette? Perhaps make the + negative space?
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 1:34 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
thanks for highlighting my designs, but personally I think I like the last one I created best :-p
http://jadehawks.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/atheismplus.png
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 1:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
seconded. I don’t usually wear jewelry, but that one would be worth it :-)
Surly Amy
August 19, 2012 at 1:36 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This group exists: http://www.meetup.com/atheistsetcpdx/
They use a similar logo. Anyone have friends there to reach out to them and see if they want to join in the fun?
A Hermit
August 19, 2012 at 1:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I don’t think we need to pick just one version of “A+”
I like the of seeing a bunch of different individualized versions of the idea. Pick the one you like, or make your own.
One Thousand Needles
August 19, 2012 at 1:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Whether or not anyone decides to use my contribution, I am super-freakin-excited to see a solid concept coming together so quickly. It’s a testament to the community that is FTB.
Great job rallying the troops, Jen! When are we issued the pink jackboots?
Larkness
August 19, 2012 at 1:40 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thirded!
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
also, once I get my summer-work finished and get back to blogging, I’m going to try to focus more on the sort of writing that would make sense in terms of an A+ movement. Graphics and writing is all I am currently capable of contributing. That, and showing up to A+ conferences (I’m just gonna declare WIS2 to be an A+ (or at least, A= compatible) conference, so there :-p )
Larkness
August 19, 2012 at 1:44 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I agree. I made my own design but don’t know how to host it anonymously. I sent it to a friend who forwarded it to Jen. Anyway, I think there could be lots of designs!
Eshto
August 19, 2012 at 1:46 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I already cared about and supported all those things. FTB writers labeled me a “misogynist” anyway for daring to disagree with Greta Christina on a facebook thread. The idea that critical thinking exists on FTB is a joke and a half.
The handful of loud FTB and Skepchick writers fumble with social justice issues at every possible opportunity. You elevate Internet troll comments to the status of “news” and use them to characterize, and complain about, the entire skeptic movement. You intentionally write incendiary things and fan the flames of drama to drive up blog hits. You attack fellow liberals, feminists, etc., who should be your allies, over incredibly minor disagreements. You use the popularity of your blogs to bully people and insult public figures. And few, if any of you, have any actual background in any of the issues you claim to be authorities on.
Like Amy’s problematic series of collecting white dudes siding with her on her blog (with the obvious implication being that anyone who doesn’t want to be associated with her blog, or who has a problem with Amy’s attitude in general, is somehow by default ‘pro-harassment’), this just looks to me like yet another dumb way for you to shuffle people into “us” or “them” camps so that you can continue your silly little Internet wars. You can keep it. I’ll continue to speak out for equality of women and minorities in my own time, on my own terms, thank you very much.
FeministWhore
August 19, 2012 at 1:46 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
What’s the A+ stance on sex workers rights?
oolon
August 19, 2012 at 1:51 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The FtBs haters are going to find some way of taking the piss… Might as well make it easy for them otherwise they’d have to use their brains and nothing good would come of that.
Natalie Reed
August 19, 2012 at 1:52 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
If peeps are serious about allying A+ with intersectional “fourth wave” feminism stuff, the stance on sex workers’ rights would be that it isn’t really the place of people who AREN’T sex workers to go around dictating how sex workers should fit into their political beliefs, but instead ASKING sex workers what such intersectional human rights movements can do FOR them, on behalf of what THEY feel would best offer them rights, freedom, protection, dignity, etc.
KathyO
August 19, 2012 at 1:53 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I love this! Not necessarily the logo or the name ‘Atheism plus’ (though those are fine), but what it stands for. I don’t want my atheism to be associated solely with telling people to stop proselytizing and putting up crosses. I want it to represent empowerment and progress for everyone. There’s a reason secular morality is superior, and it ain’t because we can poke holes in other people’s beliefs.
Natalie Reed
August 19, 2012 at 1:53 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Maybe you should try to fight for women and minorities on THEIR terms, not your own.
didgen
August 19, 2012 at 1:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think Jadehawk’s green symbol is beautiful. It looks like it is rising above something that is fading away. Which is what I believe should happen to the group that are fighting for their right to keep others down. It also shows that while atheism is still our focus we are changing what we want to be. IMO keeping the red A is not stepping far enough away, and should be more immediately noticeable. Thanks for this though, I hope it continues to grow, they certainly don’t share my values.
A Hermit
August 19, 2012 at 1:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That’s so crazy it just might work…;)
trinioler
August 19, 2012 at 1:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
FW, that’s a complicated issue. People are going to have different feelings, especially because your question fails to differentiate between is and ought.
Currently sex workers have issues in that the ways many of them get into the business are through oppression and addiction. There is substantial abuse, not just from customers and “bosses”, but also from the police and other authority figures. This is the “is”.
The “ought”, is when we get into discussions of sex-positivity, freedom of choice, etc.
Any good discussion of this issue necessarily involves first a separation of the is vs ought, getting proper data, and stuff like that.
That is hard stuff.
trinioler
August 19, 2012 at 1:56 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oh and of course, everything Natalie Reed mentioned. Can’t forget about actually asking the said sex workers about this. :P
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 1:56 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
what Natalie said. And creating a 4th Wave Feminism goes hand in hand with creating the A+ movement, at least for me.
rq
August 19, 2012 at 1:56 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I want some pink jackboots.
Also, I like the ‘A+’ logo because in a way, it’s even more subtle than just the ‘A’. It’s even easier to put it up somewhere on a Facebook profile, and you don’t have to come out to all those people who have a negative view of atheism as such. The ‘A+’ looks like gloating about some awesome marks or a great day or whatever, but it’s like the bat-signal to those in the know. How long that will last, we will see, but I like that aspect for now. Especially if everyone makes their own personalized ‘A+’ symbol.
Andi Greyscale
August 19, 2012 at 1:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey Jen, just wanted to let you know I’m sharing the good news (pun intended) on Tumblr!
http://andigreyscale.tumblr.com/post/29779061772/oh-yes-my-blog-is-now-a-atheism-friendly-blog
'Tis Himself
August 19, 2012 at 1:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Please remember to stick the flounce. Goodbye and have a nice rest of your life.
Andi Greyscale
August 19, 2012 at 2:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hate to break it to you Eshto, but you’re a shitty ally if you’re not even listening to minorities by “speaking out” in regards to equality and sexism on your own terms.
Ganner
August 19, 2012 at 2:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You sound like one of those Christians who likes to say “Why do you keep using all these examples of fundamentalists and gay bashers, we’re not really like that!”
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 2:01 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I was about to say the same thing. It would be kind of cool if we managed to co-opt the idea of A+ in general, rather than one specific color/font use of it. :)
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven
August 19, 2012 at 2:01 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Plus, it’s not like they’re going to not call us arrogant if we don’t use it.
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 2:01 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Plus, it gives more weight to the diversity angle – we all share the same ideas, if not quite the same implementation.
One Thousand Needles
August 19, 2012 at 2:03 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Perfect.
Rebecca W
August 19, 2012 at 2:03 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thanks for starting this, Jen. I think it’s a much-needed unifier of an already rolling movement that lacks a deserving name, and it’s great to see so much positivity around the concept (and rightly so!)
*high 5*
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 2:03 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And that would have to be their/our stance on pretty much everything. And it flies right in the face of what so many of us are by nature (which is thinking we have the right answers to everything), and it would be hard, and it would be fantastic.
Jen
August 19, 2012 at 2:03 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Man, you guys are giving me book title ideas too ;)
FeministWhore
August 19, 2012 at 2:03 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Sex workers are speaking endlessly about these things, in very complex nuanced ways. We are begging to be heard, it’s up to others to go to the effort and take the time to listen.
StarStuff, a soulless cunt
August 19, 2012 at 2:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is seriously kick ass. It’s really amazing and encouraging to see so many people this excited and eager about this idea.
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 2:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
From what I’ve read here at Freethought blogs, they are generally opposed to sex workers rights.
April
August 19, 2012 at 2:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey, I will seriously consider whatever symbol we agree upon as a tattoo. I don’t have any yet, but this one would definitely be worthwhile IMHO.
piegasm
August 19, 2012 at 2:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m so on board with all this! I love the green logo!
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 2:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is deliberate self-isolation. I agree we need ways to say “we are the future of atheism and you aren’t going to stop us”, but rebranding as a subtype does not do that.
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 2:13 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That is fine, if you want to do it all on your own terms! Then don’t be a part of this movement. We’re ok with that! And then, if your own terms don’t seem to be getting you anywhere, maybe you’ll stop and think about why.
Here’s the thing: we’re so over getting guilt tripped about all those people who want SO BADLY to be allies but we’re stopping them by HURTING THEIR FEELINGS when we tell them that what they’re doing isn’t actually what is needed to be helpful. So, don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
fanty
August 19, 2012 at 2:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The thing is that non-subtype atheism is ALWAYS going to be dictionary atheism. There’s simply no escaping that. If you want a movement that’s about more than “There is no god.”, then you have to come up with some other label.
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 2:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
SG, I understand what you’ve been saying, but I don’t think it necessarily needs to be seen as creating a subtype. Why not brand it as a supertype? Not as a splinter of atheism, but as a melding of both atheism and social justice and skepticism.
Fenix
August 19, 2012 at 2:16 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thank you so much for this. I read your last post with eager eyes, finding myself nodding at every other sentence, and I absolutely love the idea of Atheism+, and I think that it is an idea that needs to come to light.
I don’t think it will be a faction either, just a subgroup – there is no reason for us to get into fights about it – we fight our battles that we think are important, that is what we all do anyway right?
julian
August 19, 2012 at 2:16 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is kinda exciting. Now that a logo’s picked out, first move? Minority out reach, scholastic programs, what? When it was atheism the objective was clear and easily defined; push back against religion. So what to do was pretty straight forward. Now that it’s atheism plus it’ll take some genuine thought into what sort of activism is going to happen.
Being in the U.S. (in North Carolina of all places) I’d like to see a push against the erosion of reproductive rights. Lobbying, money raising for commercials, grass roots efforts, everything and anything really. There are groups already doing this of course, so it won’t be like atheism is fighting the behemoth alone.
Josh, Official SpokesGay
August 19, 2012 at 2:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You are such a liar. You just can’t help yourself.
myriadwords
August 19, 2012 at 2:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thank you for this. “Third wave” is a good way of putting it; I’m not convinced that splintering off into another faction is necessary or desirable.
The intersection of atheism, feminism and skepticism is what attracted me in the first place. I’ve been reading various FTB blogs and Skepchick in no small part because of the number of sharp, insightful people, yourself included, writing and doing great stuff that brings the three together.
The vicious, outright abusive pushback that comes out of the woodwork whenever the same rational spotlight is directed at societal issues speaks loudly to their relevance. It’s amazing and heartening to see how many people like yourself have refused to back down. Race, gender, sexuality and so forth are no less important than religion, just as full of unexamined assumptions, and feed into one another in ways that, in my experience, make it outright unproductive to silo them off. We need more voices, not less, asking the hard questions on societal issues.
I would love to see this officially embraced as a mainstream part of the larger atheist community, and my sense is that it’s ready for it. To borrow from Thomas Kuhn, I think the community is in the midst of a paradigm shift, and that this more inclusive understanding of what it means to be a skeptic/atheist/freethinker is where things will ultimately settle out.
Starfury
August 19, 2012 at 2:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Atheism+ is a movement I think I can be proud to be identified with.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 2:20 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
then you have no reading comprehension, or are lying.
ewan
August 19, 2012 at 2:21 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It all sounds good, but isn’t this basically humanism? And if not, how is it different?
FeministWhore
August 19, 2012 at 2:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I wouldn’t necessarily say they are opposed, because who is ‘they’ anyway? I’m fairly positive that Natalie and Greta are in support of sex workers rights, considering how strongly they spoke out in regards to the Taslima Nasreen threads a while back.
Buzz
August 19, 2012 at 2:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I just assumed the Atheism folks were A+ all along – reading your tales of creepiness you’ve experienced has deterred me from getting further into anything atheist related. But this whole A+ thing has me really inspired!
Ayoub
August 19, 2012 at 2:24 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I agree, Jadehawk’s red A is my favourite, too.
Natalie Reed
August 19, 2012 at 2:28 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Taslima Nasreen has said some things I found very iffy in regards to sex workers’ rights (like vocally supporting complete, global criminalization, describing sex workers as “prostituted women”, denying that they can ever have agency or that it can be an ethical, consensual professional relationships), but myself, Greta Christina and Crommunist (at the very least) have all been rather outspoken about the issue, making a point to side closely with feminist sex workers themselves, such as Feminist Whore, and allowing them to define the terms of the discourse surrounding them.
Unless of course you’re just one of the trolls with some ridiculously black/white “feminists are all the same! feminists all hate sex!” mentality, thinking that feminism is defined exclusively by second wavers and people like Germaine Greer, Andrea Dworkin, Janice Raymond, etc.
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 2:28 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That’s unnecessarily pessimistic. Even the dictionary meaning of atheism has changed. You know, the lack of belief in gods meaning is new; atheism used to mean what we now call strong atheism, the affirmative belief that there are no gods.
There is no reason to cede the meaning of atheism to anyone, and PZ’s work of identifying “dictionary atheists” as a subgroup has already given us a great start. We can now recognize that saying “atheism is only the lack of belief in gods” is an incomplete and thus insufficient description of any individual’s atheism. (I’d link here to the Pharyngula Wiki’s entry on dictionary atheists, but I’m wary of links getting eaten.)
A lot of things follow logically and empirically from the lack of existence of gods — only some approaches to epistemology are functional, we only have each other to rely on, values should not prioritize supernaturalism (including platonic idealism) over real suffering and happiness, and so on.
We do not have to come up with some other label. Atheism has been correlated with (and thus mentally associated with) political progressivism at least since the French Revolution. Much of our work is already done.
It’s the dictionary atheists’ rhetoric that claims they’re pure. We don’t have to accept that.
jargmosthaf
August 19, 2012 at 2:28 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That is gonna be my first Surlyramic :)
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 2:29 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well it was taslima’s posts that I was thinking of. So Maybe I should have said that Freethought blogs is generally supportive of those who oppose sex workers’ rights.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 2:30 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
oh, before I forget. all three of my designs exist as SVG files (and they’re free to use as you like), so if anyone wants a larger version for their own use, they can e-mail me :-)
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 2:30 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Do you support the legalization or decriminalization of prostitution?
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 2:30 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Btw, an interesting comment about the historically obvious association between atheism and progressivism over here.
Sheila Crosby
August 19, 2012 at 2:30 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thirded.
dogeared, spotted and foxed
August 19, 2012 at 2:31 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Natalie, It’s answers like those which make me excited about A+.
(Also, has anyone else noticed that a typo gives you “A=” which also works. I’m enjoying that.)
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 2:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Can you link me to a blog, hosted here at FTB, expressing support for the legalization or decriminalization of prostitution?
Sheila Crosby
August 19, 2012 at 2:36 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
May I suggest a rainbow A+ logo?
Silva
August 19, 2012 at 2:36 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I am very much into the idea of the A+ logos being of a general design type, but not necessarily a single logo. The above designs are good, and I’d wear any of them, but maybe I’ll want to create my own variant, just because I can.
One Thousand Needles
August 19, 2012 at 2:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*offers high five*
Josh, Official SpokesGay
August 19, 2012 at 2:38 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Not playing your troll game.
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 2:38 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Regardless, it is inherently rhetorically vulnerable to the ‘purist’ line: “I don’t need to add anything to my atheism. Atheism is good in and of itself.”
Modifiers cede the ground we’ve already won. As Jen said in her previous post: ‘But the reason I’m not throwing my hands up in the air and screaming “I quit” is because we’re already winning.’
Except this is no longer winning — this is quitting the attempt to claim atheism per se.
(rorschach’s Venn diagram is tragically illustrative of this. What you’re calling a supertype will necessarily be a subtype of atheism, as long as we grant them the argument that it’s coherent to be an “atheist” who doesn’t meld in social justice. We should never grant this. The regressives should have to fight us for it every step of the way — if they have to fight us then they will lose. If we freely grant the claim that it’s coherent to be an “atheist” without progressivism, then they’ll always have that territory uncontested.)
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 2:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
yes.
'Tis Himself
August 19, 2012 at 2:40 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Okay, SG, this is your chance to show your stuff. If you don’t like what’s being suggested, then you should suggest something different. Show us poor, misguided folks the force of your vaunted intellect. Or are you only in complaining mode?
Ganner
August 19, 2012 at 2:40 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think too many people overlook the fact that diminishing religion is just step one. We have to replace it’s role in society with secular alternatives.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 2:41 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
oh, I thought you knew FTB so well as to know they’re not supportive of that?
In reality, of course, you haven’t read the discussion between Greta Christina and Taslima Nasreen. Or else you wouldn’t be asking this question.
julian
August 19, 2012 at 2:42 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Personally I’m all for legalization of prostitution. It’s honest work and some government oversight would do wonders for helping those sex workers who are especially at risk for sexual violence or otherwise being exploited.
Nathair
August 19, 2012 at 2:43 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes I do. Happy now?
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 2:43 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I don’t think all feminists are the same. I have been subbed to FW for almost two years. I do think that feminists who think they can support sex workers’ rights, while simultaneously expressing common cause with “feminists” who oppose sex workers’ rights, are wrong. This is an ideological schism that is fundamental and irreconcilable.
julian
August 19, 2012 at 2:47 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That’s gonna be a minefield…
I’ll grab my flak and Kevlar.
hyperdeath
August 19, 2012 at 2:50 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
We need a forum. I’d be happy to set one up, if no-one else has other plans.
julian
August 19, 2012 at 2:53 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
There’s a public list on twitter right now but a forum would be awesome.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 2:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*awkward NASA high five*
:-)
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 2:55 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
OTN’s is my favorite too. But there’s another good one that got overlooked:
” I’ve got another logo to add to the pile. I’ve never been much of a fan of the Dawkins “A,” instead preferring the ol’ Atheist Alliance International one from ought-7, as designed by Diane Reed. https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2oNATaswe2mZC0tLTh2MWZkREU (.png file) ” – HJ Hornbeck
Rip Steakface
August 19, 2012 at 2:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
One, marketing. Two, it emphasizes atheism in the name… while also pointing out everything else we do and want.
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 2:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I addressed this in the original post’s comments. You’re thinking of ‘Atheists Giving Aid’, which apparently had used ‘A+’ at some point. But its site, givingaid.richarddawkins.net , has been renamed and is now ‘Non-Believers Giving Aid’, NBGA.
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 2:58 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well… yes, I guess. Now that I think about it, I don’t want to be associated with dictionary atheists, or unconsidered atheists (the ones who are just by default, without having thought about it, and don’t see t as important). And I don’t mind having the term atheist still stand for that. I want to be more than just an atheist. If we take the atheist term, then there has to be another new word to define the dictionary types with, and I don’t care enough about them to bother with trying to find another way to refer to them.
mandrellian
August 19, 2012 at 3:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A+ is a great name for a great idea (A+ also happens to be my blood type).
You hear the question all the time: “OK, you’ve disabused someone of religion, but now what? What about community and shared ideals and positive action and all the other things that person’s religion used to inspire? You say yourself atheism isn’t a belief system or a philosophy, just a single position on a single question – so now what?”
“Atheism plus.”
“Plus what?”
“Plus social justice, plus feminism, plus racial equality, plus sex-positivism, plus science education, plus empathy, reason, compassion…”
“Hymns?”
“We have a Cuttlefish.”
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 3:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well-said, I agree.
Rob
August 19, 2012 at 3:02 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yup
Nathair
August 19, 2012 at 3:05 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Sorry but that’s a trivial objection to quash. Atheism, “pure” atheism is nothing but the lack of a specific belief. It can not possibly be considered a comprehensive world view, it can never be enough. Everyone, every single atheist on the planet adds a laundry list of anythings to our atheism; libertarianism, liberalism, conservatism, a belief in social justice, MRA style misogyny, squid fetishism, humanism, Marxism, accomodationism, etc-ism. There is absolutely no reason that a community must only form based upon one (1) single shared characteristic.
Or do you think your objection applies to the American Atheists or the Black Atheists of America?
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 3:05 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The diverse variations for people with different style preferences to choose from are all fine, but I’d gently point out that for most common profile pic / blog sidebar icon / jewelry type of uses, a squareish design is going to be more useful for most people than a long rectangle like this. :)
hyperdeath
August 19, 2012 at 3:05 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’d like at least one FTB bigwig to support the idea. I don’t want to buy a shiny new forum, carry it home from the shop, and then plug it into my internet, only for it to be ignored, or for another forum to appear elsewhere.
Any preference as to forum software? phpBB OK?
Jen
August 19, 2012 at 3:05 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I already bought domain names just in case…maybe we could set up a forum there? Or start a new subreddit? Should I even touch reddit with this? :P
Rob
August 19, 2012 at 3:07 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jen, I’ve just read yesterdays post while eating breakfast (different time zone obviously). Fantastic stuff – good on you. Sooner the ‘others’ join the dinosaurs the better, hopefully by realising the error of their ways and joining with us.
I vote for one thousand needles logo.
hall-of-rage
August 19, 2012 at 3:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
+100 Internet Points
Bill Goodwin
August 19, 2012 at 3:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thought I’d offer a little modification to the logo. I’ve got the eps (vector) version if people want to use this one. I thought the plus sign was too fat and horsey so I used the Zapfino plus sign and turned it to cooperate with the overlap better. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3029231349377&set=a.1040676516749.6115.1820658109&type=1&theater
hyperdeath
August 19, 2012 at 3:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
What are the domain names?
Ugh… Don’t speak that word….
trinioler
August 19, 2012 at 3:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Stay far away from reddit unless you’re prepared to have moderators ban liberally.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 3:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
humanism doesn’t preclude theists (nor should it). this is specifically for atheists.
FeministWhore
August 19, 2012 at 3:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Guess they misunderstood what the “or” meant.
hyperdeath
August 19, 2012 at 3:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think I got spam-trapped there. Let’s try again:
I’m in the process of signing up to a D R E A M H O S T free trial. Should I use one of your domains, or would it be better if I just register something with the same name, but with “forum” tacked onto the end?
Palaverer
August 19, 2012 at 3:21 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I quit capital A Atheism earlier this year for the same reasons you and Natalie Reed talked about. Yours is the only atheist specific blog I still follow. I would be very pleased to get behind Atheism +.
Flavia Dzodan at Tiger Beatdown once said, “My feminism will be intersectional or it will be bullshit.” I feel the same way about my atheism.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 3:22 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
the beauty of vector files is that they’re easily modifiable. I wanted one logo that actually has the whole phrase in it, but it’s not like taking out everything after the A and shortening the + and the background is difficult.
plus, the SSA’s logo isn’t square either, so there :-p
Kurt1
August 19, 2012 at 3:22 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The idea is superb. The logos presented do not speak to me, somehow they remind me of pharmacies here in germany*. But well, thats a minor thing. I´m looking forward to the FtB-is-teh-new-scientology-trolls pointing out that the “+” looks just like a cross.
* http://www.kuhlo-apotheke.de/images/apotheke.gif
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 3:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Don’t troll me, ‘Tis. Read.
I already did suggest something different. Multiple times.
I said from the very beginning, for instance: “Visual signals like the ones Jadehawk uses for feminism+atheism are excellent — they’ll do the work of signaling our presence to each other. With descriptive alt-text for screen readers.” We just shouldn’t use the
I’m affirmatively saying that we should continue to lay claim to atheism per se. We do that by pointing out that the current crop of dictionary atheists are a subtype despite any claims to the contrary, and that saying “atheism is only the lack of belief in gods” is an incomplete and thus insufficient description of any individual’s atheism.
Affirmatively insist upon our epistemological argument — that knowledge claims about both the supernatural, and politics, and indeed everything — have to be answerable to the question “how do you know that?” And this epistemology is necessarily a part of any atheism worth having, and this brings politics into the scope of atheism per se. Not as an addition, but as the natural scope of the consequences of there being no gods — “A lot of things follow logically and empirically from the lack of existence of gods — only some approaches to epistemology are functional, we only have each other to rely on, values should not prioritize supernaturalism (including platonic idealism) over real suffering and happiness, and so on.”
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 3:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
and since I’m being a smartass anyway: that ain’t no rectangle, sir. not a right angle in sight :-p
Rey Fox
August 19, 2012 at 3:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And I’m sure you’ll be very effective, too.
FeministWhore
August 19, 2012 at 3:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
So folks aren’t confused: Most sex workers and rights advocates support decriminalization over legalization. It’s important because the anti-prostitution arguments always focus on arguing against legalization, which is not actually what sex workers argue for. They sort of just argue past us about ‘legalization’.
hall-of-rage
August 19, 2012 at 3:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oh stop, that video is too good. Gotta find ways to discredit it. /snark
Seriously, thanks for the link.
Infophile
August 19, 2012 at 3:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I really should have commented on the last post, but I’ll chime in here at least: I love the idea of a new wave, and I love the branding of A+. Of the designs proposed, I tend to prefer the one by One Thousand Needles. It has a slight issue in that the original scarlet A is associated with Dawkins, but it has the benefit that it’s simple, and easy for anyone to sketch out if they want.
*Hefts his Greathammer +5 of trollslaying* Now, to get to work cleaning up the mess left behind by the last wave…
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
unfinished sentence:
… We just shouldn’t use the symbols that are trivially pronounceable, like “ay plus”.
Jennifer, Uppity Bitch and General Malcontent
August 19, 2012 at 3:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
How does one go about starting an organization? That would provide room for people to address Atheism Plus (whatever their flavor of social justice is) via donation or time or whatever? I do not have the organizational skills or time to start something up myself, but I would happily work for such an organization were there to be one. There could also be regional variants, which would address, say, the reproductive rights in the South issue that someone brought up earlier. Social justice issues do not hold the same urgency from region to region (or, for that matter, nation to nation), and it would be helpful to give people a place where they can commit to social justice and focus in whatever their particular passion is.
I know nothing about anything or any of this, so feel free to ignore me if I’m going too broad. I’m just a college student with no practical experience in nonprofit work, and I have no idea what I’m talking about, but that’s what came to mind.
Georgia Sam
August 19, 2012 at 3:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Wow, maybe there’s some hope for the world after all. I vote for the One Thousand Needles design.
sambarnett-cormack
August 19, 2012 at 3:27 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I feel a little bashful about commenting on this. Partly due to having been mostly absent from this blog and its comment threads since it moved to FTB (more lost the habit of checking it than anything else), and partly because I’m not an atheist, or at least don’t identify as such. People who remember me will possibly remember that I’m a non-theist Quaker. I won’t get into what that means or why right now – it’s kinda relevant, in that I see the meaning of being a non-theist Quaker as being quite similar to what Jen suggests for A+ (plus all the general liberal Quaker practice stuff), but it would be purely an aside, and I don’t want to run off on a big aside about me, when this subject isn’t about me or my belief ;)
In essence, this is another attempt at the perennial problem faced by atheism as a movement, of negative definition (what atheists aren’t, or what they don’t do). I can see it needing to be an identified subgroup because it’s hard to say that any of those things are inherent to atheism – they seem obvious to some atheists, certainly, and atheism does nothing to contradict any of them, but some will see themselves as atheist and not agree with them – either actively disagreeing, or not seeing them as important, or as part of their atheism.
I suppose the important point in it all is that people can believe in all these things without a religion to tell them to (tiny aside: as I said, those things are mostly values among liberal Quakers, but I don’t believe in them because I’m a Quaker – I’m a Quaker, in part, because I believe in them). People can reach those conclusions because they Just Make Sense. I suspect it veers into closer similarity with some other existent ideas, like ethical humanism (not necessarily that exactly, I’m just guessing it gets close to something like that).
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 3:28 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“Dictionary atheists” is already the term for them. PZ has done the work already of identifying them as a distinct subtype. We just need to keep that up.
If we’re successful, then eventually they won’t want to self-identify as atheists (or atheists full stop) anymore, since atheism will be too progressive for them. Then they’ll come up with some whole other term for themselves, or a modifier to “atheist”.
In the meantime we already have the pejorative we need.
Rey Fox
August 19, 2012 at 3:29 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Me neither. As far as I’m concerned, they’re happy enough to take themselves out of the spotlight.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven
August 19, 2012 at 3:32 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hosting one person who they agree on a whole bunch of other things with isn’t “generally” anything.
hyperdeath
August 19, 2012 at 3:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I notice that atheismplus.com was registered today. I hope that was you.
I could register some forum based derivative of that name?
A 'Nym Too
August 19, 2012 at 3:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fabulous.
I’m starting our first DEEEEP RIIIIFT!!!!! by insisting on purple jackboots. With rainbow laces.
Yeah, I went there.
Oh, and can I start a motion to just answer every troll comment with a cheery “A+! “?
They’ll feel pleased, initially, until they realise it’s not a grade. Then they can take to Twitter and call us bullies for not engaging them.
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 3:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
As trivial as it ought to be to quash, they’ve been pretty successful at using it.
The fact is that claiming the ‘purist’ label is rhetorically effective; any reading of the various anti-dictionary-atheists threads at Pharyngula shows dozens of them popping up to whine about how terribly unfair PZ is being to them by taking away their claim to atheism per se.
I don’t know if that’s an “extinction burst” yet but eventually we can get there.
And that’s dictionary atheist rhetoric right there. You’re believing it. But you don’t have to believe it. There are a lot of things that follow logically and empirically from there being no gods. A worldview which doesn’t incorporate those things is not a coherent atheism.
This clearly is not a response to anything I’ve said.
I have no idea what this question is supposed to mean. If it means “should registered organizations not add adjectives to their names” then the answer is no; but a org as such is not the movement — orgs have different branding requirements than we do.
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 3:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
My experience here at FTB is limited, but whenever I find myself surrounded by extremely hostile feminists who use words like “misogyny,” “privilege,” and “patriarchy” in every other sentence, I tend to assume they share the standard radical feminist agenda. I know that most of the feminists here do not believe they are rad fems, but they sure do sound a lot like them.
Christoph Burschka
August 19, 2012 at 3:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This mindset is what I’ve always associated with humanism. Ayn Rand also demonstrated, long before Reddit, that atheism and not being an asshole are not inherently related.
It is tempting, then, to let go of the atheist label entirely. It’s accurate that we don’t believe in gods, but we don’t believe in Bigfoot either. And while humanism itself is not proof against pseudo-science or religion, we have this:
But the “atheism” label has one thing going for it: It really irritates people.
We can call ourselves “secular humanists” and explain that it also means we’re not religious, but it sounds too polite and fluffy for people (other than insanely fundamentalist preachers) to pick up on it. As long as “atheist” means picking a fight and “secular humanist” is acceptable, we practically have an obligation to continue picking the fight.
Ramble ends, verdict: I’m in favor. Also that first A+ looks awesome.
mcbender
August 19, 2012 at 3:43 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
nth’d!
Amy might have a hard time keeping up with demand; that sounds like a good problem to have!
Jennifer, Uppity Bitch and General Malcontent
August 19, 2012 at 3:46 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
…do you even know what a radical feminist is? Or do you just generally characterize any feminism that challenges you as “radical?” Because I am strongly inclined to believe the latter.
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 3:46 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The sexual objectification of women is one of the central feminist themes here at FTB. I find it quite difficult to imagine how feminists can be so incensed about sexual objectification in the media, but then claim to support the rights of sex workers in pornography. I’m sure I am just missing some of their incredibly nuanced position, but on it’s face it seems blatantly hypocritical to decry the sexual objectification of women in advertising, while rationalizing things like the skepchick pin-up calendar.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 3:47 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
FM, “or” can be both inclusive or exclusive, and I guess most people read it as an inclusive one.
Anyway, I admit to an allergic reaction to “no rules and regulations” arguments, since I think all labor should be regulated. But that doesn’t seem to be the indented meaning of arguments for decriminalization, even if they often do look unfortunately libertarian.
Terms aside, I’m all for making sex work as legal, non-criminal, and regulated as all other work
ewan
August 19, 2012 at 3:53 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“humanism doesn’t preclude theists”
That’s a view, but I disagree, and for what it’s worth, the British Humanist association are with me. From their bit on defining humanism (at http://www.humanism.org.uk/humanism):
There’s a lot of other principles of what Humanism is that seem to line up with this idea.
Dov
August 19, 2012 at 3:53 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
An A+ idea!
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 3:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
what about this is difficult to understand? A culture that makes women into objects is bad. Nonetheless, women should have the right to navigate the kyriarchy safely, and without extra hurdles thrown in their way.
this is in fact identical to the argument that even though religion is wrong and oppressive, women should have the right to navigate religious traditions safely and without extra hurdles (like veil bans) thrown in their way.
also: “misogyny”, “privilege”, and “patriarchy” are basic terms of Feminist Theory, and are not exclusive to Radical Feminists (nor radfems)
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 3:55 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
By “or” I did mean it in the either/or sense.
But I do understand that decriminalisation is the position that FW and most (maybe all) of the sex positive feminists are advocating.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 3:58 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
FeministWhore, sorry for managing to garble your handle with my abbreviation. was supposed to be FW, or course
LS
August 19, 2012 at 4:02 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I dunno. I’m fine with the idea of being a splinter faction from the New Atheist movement. I don’t really like those guys.
I say we prop Jen up on a big chair so she can issue decrees. Or maybe a website. I dunno, something like that.
Ophelia Benson
August 19, 2012 at 4:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I changed my Facebook profile pic to the Thousand Needles version and it’s triggered a rush of comments.
Smhll
August 19, 2012 at 4:05 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Dylan, you are grossly overreaching with that “every other sentence” crap.
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 4:06 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The obvious distinction between the right to religious freedom and the rights of sex workers is that the latter is a financial transaction requiring informed consent. A world view where the males are “privileged” and women are “oppressed” by the “patriarchy” inevitably implies a lack of meaningful agency on the part of women.
Lindsay
August 19, 2012 at 4:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The fact that you’re most up-in-arms over being called a misogynist, to the point where you’re willing to throw social justice under the bus, pretty much tells everyone else where your priorities REALLY are.
omg i got called a mean name > the lives and wellbeings of the oppressed
Lindsay
August 19, 2012 at 4:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
the 1960s called and they want their second wave feminism back, please.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 4:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
no it doesn’t, any more than classism implies a lack of agency on the part of poor people, racism implies a lack of agency on the part of non-white people, heterosexism implies a lack of agency on the part of gay people, or cis-supremacy imples a lack of agency on the part of trans* people.
If you don’t know what the terms mean, do not try to criticize them. You will fail.
sandrafraction
August 19, 2012 at 4:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’d buy and wear one in a minute.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 4:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
it should be noted that your comment also falls into the Free Will trap, in which you feel that the only way to claim someone has agency is to claim freedom from external influences, and thus you end up denying systemic oppression.
BrianX
August 19, 2012 at 4:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Most people here who have spoken out on the matter are pro-sex work and pro-legal prostitution. Taslima Nasreen’s the main exception, but she comes from a very different cultural background where the distinction between sex work and sex slavery isn’t so clear cut.
Taylor Kendall
August 19, 2012 at 4:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Atheism+ = atheism -libertarians
who else besides ethically stunted, rich, white hetro males would come up with such a ass backwards and regressive philosophy. People who can’t look forward enough too see that helping everyone succeed helps them more than enacting some weird for of survival of the fittest.
LeftSidePositive
August 19, 2012 at 4:21 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
May I please vote for both the “A” and the “+” in scarlet in Zapfino? I think that would be the most elegant…
LeftSidePositive
August 19, 2012 at 4:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
For some reason this A+ thing reminds me of this New Yorker cartoon:
http://www.condenaststore.com/-sp/One-pilgrim-with-a-A-on-her-collar-looking-at-another-with-an-A-on-he-New-Yorker-Cartoon-Prints_i8542332_.htm
In a good way, of course!
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 4:30 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
@jadehawk
I don’t deny the existence of systemic oppression. To some degree it is true that most people are always acting under economic pressures that one could say limit their range of choices. Our problem is an economic one though, and not an ideological construct. It is not a “racist” system… and more than it is a “patriarchy.” If it were a racist system then it would make sense to argue that non whites probably wouldn’t have meaning agency.
LeftSidePositive
August 19, 2012 at 4:30 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
We’re not the Atheist People’s Front, we’re the People’s Front of Atheism!!!
thomascaldwell
August 19, 2012 at 4:31 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I used to think atheism was atheism+ when I was more naive.
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 4:31 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Sorry about the spelling errors…
I’m off. Thanks for the discussion.
thunk, erythematic
August 19, 2012 at 4:36 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fantabulous!
I admit I wasn’t sold at first, but the whole proposal’s not bad.
I’m also with the “no official logo” thing– let people make their own variants. However, the Needles design is my favorite thus far.
Rieux
August 19, 2012 at 4:40 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The plus in that one looks quite a bit like a cross, which lends the entire name a bit of an ominous undercurrent….
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 4:46 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
atheistplus and atheistsplus still seem to be open.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 4:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
patriarchy is no more an “ideological construct” than any other social phenomenon is. and your insistence that only one axis of oppression matters is the opposite of the intersectionality that Fourth Wave Feminism and Atheism+ should be committed to.
It is absolutely not a question of either patriarchy or classism. When it’s about women in the workforce, it’s always both.
this is what I mean by denial of systemic problems. There is no society out there that is not racist, at least not yet. That axis of oppression has not been destroyed yet. And no, it wouldn’t make sense to say that the existence of a racist system destroys agency. That’s not how hierarchy works.
secular Steve
August 19, 2012 at 4:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Here’s a better idea. Make up a brand new word like PZism+ if you need to put a label on consolidated world views. Atheism already has a meaning and does not need other views attached to it. Not all atheists are feminists. Feminists are feminists. Atheists are atheists. Atheist+ or atheism+ is retarded sorry to say. You may as well call it atheism 2.0.
RickRay
August 19, 2012 at 5:03 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
If any Christian or other god-loving believer of myths and fairy tales asks me what the A+ necklace/pendant (when they come out ) means, I guess I’ll have to tell them that it indicates I’m a 1) freethinker 2) humanist 3) naturalist 4) rationalist 5) believe in equality 6) anti-theist 7)pro-science 8) atheist. You know, the kind of guy who believes in logic and common sense. That ought to shut them up for awhile!
Sam Barnett-Cormack
August 19, 2012 at 5:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey, when I saw it, my programmer brain immediately wanted it to be Atheism++…
trinioler
August 19, 2012 at 5:06 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Elizabeth Cady Stanton has been advocating what PZ’s been writing since before PZ was born. Look her up.
Erista (aka Eris)
August 19, 2012 at 5:07 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Meeeee tooooo! O_O
Osian
August 19, 2012 at 5:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I very much like this idea. I think it’s useful to think of it as a new wave, rather than a subgroup (just as transfeminism shouldn’t be a sub-type of feminism) – and that anyone in the last wave / New Atheists / traditional atheist movement that wants to be progressive and deal with social justice etc will naturally align with A+. Basically if anyone is left on the other side of a deep rift, that’s their problem.
Also, I love how A+ fits in well with what people like Natalie Reed, Greta Christina and PZ have been saying, regarding dictionary/pure atheism and what it implies; and deals with the question, there are no gods, so where does that leave us? So it’s up to us humans to decide our fate, and start addressing the important consequence of that – because there is no god, it’s our responsibility to get social justice, civil rights, feminism, equality etc right. Atheism may logically lead to such things, as mentioned above – and A+ is a call to move forward and get on with it.
xxxild
August 19, 2012 at 5:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
We will have to stand against N.O.W. then, who deliberately threw sex workers under the bus. RAWR! I’m in on that project!
Jen
August 19, 2012 at 5:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“retarded”
Yeah, you’re not invited.
mandrellian
August 19, 2012 at 5:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Atheism+ includes opposition to poorly-chosen ableist insults like “retarded”.
Erista (aka Eris)
August 19, 2012 at 5:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Greta Christina’s blog has approximately 10 billion posts about this type of thing. If you search her blog for things like “sex workers” or some such thing, you’ll find REAMS of examples. Someone once asked me for some links, and I swear I must have come up with like 12 in ten minutes. Just go over and take a look.
I point to her because she’s the most prolific that I’m aware of; others have certainly put their 2 cents in.
Alyson Miers
August 19, 2012 at 5:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Do we yet have a hashtag of #atheismplus?
mandrellian
August 19, 2012 at 5:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yep!
Nikoel
August 19, 2012 at 5:21 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
OH wow! I was already excited about A+ but A= is pretty amazing!
Buxley
August 19, 2012 at 5:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This whole idea is awesome, Jen. Something like your post has needed to be said and, although the bits and pieces have been floating around for a while, but I’m glad you took the time to write it all down.
A+ for you. =)
-Buxley
Erista (aka Eris)
August 19, 2012 at 5:27 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m going to be blunt. There are three options for me.
1) Stay in a group that is stuffed with people who are more than happy to do or defend misogynist things.
2) Abandon the entire the group that is stuffed with people who are more than happy to do or defend misogynist things.
3) Create a subgroup that tosses out the people in the larger group who are more than happy to do or defend misogynist things but welcomes in the people from the larger group who are defenders of women’s rights.
However, there is one caveat: option #1 is not an option for me. I have spent the last year trying to change and watching people trying to change the larger group. It hasn’t worked, and it’s drained me emotionally and mentally. I am done.
So, do tell me which of the options I should choose.
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 5:31 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Welcome. Sounds like you could write an interesting blog yourself. :)
ericblank
August 19, 2012 at 5:31 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Count me in
Erista (aka Eris)
August 19, 2012 at 5:33 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I cannot begin to express how much I am in favor of this. For WEEKS I’ve been wondering how long I’d be able to hold out in the face of all of this misogyny before I folded and had to bow out of the movement altogether. Just how much could I take before it shredded me?
This gives me hope that I can shift my way into a group that isn’t filled with misogynists and misogynist enablers.
So thank you.
Nikoel
August 19, 2012 at 5:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think lobbying would be a great goal to have, as well as running candidates. Neither Atheism or Feminism should be a dirty word in American politics. We need to prove that it’s not.
Sophia, Michelin-starred General of the First Mediterranean Iron Chef Batallion
August 19, 2012 at 5:36 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
YES. A thousand times yes, with a giant heaping squirt of YES on top with little A+ sprinkles.
I used to be much more skeptical of social justice movements, though over the last few years reading up I’ve landed firmly in the now identified A+ camp.
When things can get so bad that you don’t realise you’re being abused until you’re asked to give up your bodily autonomy in order to receive any affection, things need to bloody well change.
Yeah, things ARE that bad, and that’s just for me, a white cisgendered woman. Non-neurotypical doesn’t help, but hell… If it’s this horrible for me, I cannot IMAGINE how bad it might be for someone with less privilege.
Serious love for this new wave. All for it with fists raised – preferably holding pointy chef’s knives. And a spatula. Those are ALWAYS useful.
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 5:41 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
@Erista (aka Eris)
Thanks. I haven’t read her blogs yet.
Alyson Miers
August 19, 2012 at 5:50 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Um, guys? I made some more A+ logos just now. Here they are, for your perusal:
Logo the first, red plus on black A: http://alysonmiers.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=1858
Logo the second, red plus on rainbow A: http://alysonmiers.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=1859
Logo the third, black A and plus on rainbow background: http://alysonmiers.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=1860
Wowbagger, Antipodean Dervish
August 19, 2012 at 5:50 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Would I be alone in thinking that this might acutally help to get more people away from theism?
Specifically those who aren’t ‘all-the-way’ atheist (yet) but who are very keen on social justice and unhappy with how their religion ignores it (or opposes it); perhaps they’ll come for the fighting for equality and diversity and stay for the reality that gods don’t exist.
Natalie Reed
August 19, 2012 at 5:52 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m generally on your side with that, in that the branches of feminism that deny sex workers’ agency and claim that criminalization is somehow protecting womens’ rights (by denying them the freedom to make a certain choice? What?) are regressive and destructive and fundamentally incompatible with the forms of (intersectionally aware) feminism I ally myself with. But I don’t understand how you’ve taken FTB to be primarily that kind of regressive feminist, and opposed to sex workers’ rights? Unless the ONLY one of us whose views on the matter you’ve read is Taslima?
pilot
August 19, 2012 at 5:52 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
What does this mean exactly? If you are being abused then you need to tell someone not join a dumbass internet movement that consists entirely of potential logo designs.
Natalie Reed
August 19, 2012 at 5:55 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oh… I just read your weird arguments above. Nevermind. I’m not getting into this.
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 5:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’d advise you to do #3 (which we’ve been doing here at FtB since its founding and at Pharyngula before FtB) but without using a verbally pronounceable [adjective] atheism or atheism[modifier] form.
Stay on the blogs and other networks you like, promote the people you like, all that good stuff.
Visual identifiers that can’t be pronounced are not similarly vulnerable to the rhetorical weaknesses that [adjective] atheism or atheism[modifier] are. And, of course, associating with the people you like is not a rhetorical vulnerability.
My objection is all about the rhetoric, and the way it will disadvantage us in outreach, especially to the newly irreligious.
I love the possibility of having more blogs and other networks where we don’t have to interact with racists and misogynists, where we can plan for the world we want instead of constantly being on the defensive. Nothing I’ve said should be construed as saying that you personally have to engage with people who you find draining.
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 5:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
@jadehawk
I do not believe that our society is inherently racist, sexist, homophobic, etc… I believe capitalism is motivated by profit and not by ideology, ergo we do not live in patriarchy in any meaningful sense of the word. If, in our current historical context, patriarchy, sexism, racism, etc… are just symptoms of a system capitalist exploitation (as I believe they are) and not the cause of it, then it makes no sense to describe the symptom as though these ideologies were the cause. Sexism, racism, patriarchal attitudes, etc… are sometimes beneficial to the capitalist class, and at other times they are not, but there is nothing about the capitalist economic system that is inherently patriarchal, sexist, or racist.
I’m an anti-capitalist by the way.
A Hermit
August 19, 2012 at 5:59 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
But the possibilities are endless…
Sophia, Michelin-starred General of the First Mediterranean Iron Chef Batallion
August 19, 2012 at 6:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Because I’ve totally just been commenting sporadically on a blog instead of seeking real help in the real world like anyone else with a partly-functioning brain. I’ll have to inform my psychiatrist, psychologist, parents, family and lawyers then – aren’t I just a complete ditz?
Geez… showing support for something that helped me think my way out of a horribly abusive situation now means I don’t get real help? Thanks. Thanks so much. Good to know you’d jump to that conclusion – women, expecially abused, non-neurotypical women just sit around helplessly and complain, never do anything bloody useful.
*seethe*
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 6:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
that would be the ideal case, yes. In the US at least, the goal would be to provide alternative social safety nets to the ones churches provide, to allow non-theists to leave churches without endangering their economic wellbeing, for example.
'Tis Himself
August 19, 2012 at 6:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Contrary to your belief, I wasn’t trolling you. I was responding to your two sentence complaint about “deliberate self-isolation.” Yeah, I was snarky to you because I neither like nor trust you, but did you notice that my question actually got a coherent reply from you.
See, you are good for something besides whining about people using “tard” as a suffix. Maybe one day you’ll mature enough to apologize to me for trivializing the bullying I underwent. But I doubt it.
pilot
August 19, 2012 at 6:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey seethe all you like. Glad you’re getting help.
aleph squared
August 19, 2012 at 6:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Count me in!
This is awesome
julian
August 19, 2012 at 6:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Don’t let this act fool you, folks. They’re really in complete lockstep with one another.
mandrellian
August 19, 2012 at 6:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thanks, pilot, for dropping in and providing your usual haven’t-bothered-to-read-anything-beyond-the-title commentary.
'Tis Himself
August 19, 2012 at 6:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Logo the Second, without a doubt.
pilot
August 19, 2012 at 6:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You are welcome… whoever you are.
fizzygoo
August 19, 2012 at 6:17 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Looooove it! A+ equality, A+ secularism, A+ reason! Viva la A+!
Alyson Miers
August 19, 2012 at 6:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You’re welcome to snag the PNG and have fun with it.
Erista (aka Eris)
August 19, 2012 at 6:22 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Do you ENJOY poking at people who have real, serious problems, or is it some kind of compulsion?
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 6:24 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It was two sentences because it contained a link to a longer comment that I didn’t think needed to be copied and pasted here.
Ableism is worth objecting to.
I would apologize if I had indeed trivialized your bullying.
Anyway, you said: “If you don’t bring the subject up again I won’t either. I’ll neither forgive nor forget but I won’t mention it if you don’t.”
bad Jim
August 19, 2012 at 6:25 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I love it!
mandrellian
August 19, 2012 at 6:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Seriously, if you really do think this is just blabbing about logos, then it is crystal fucking clear you’ve not read/comprehended this post or the previous post or either of the ensuing comment threads. What isn’t very clear at all is why you keep coming to these blogs and acting the obtuse little pseudo-troll with people you clearly feel are beneath you.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Dundee
August 19, 2012 at 6:27 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I want that one.
Jennifer, Uppity Bitch and General Malcontent
August 19, 2012 at 6:27 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Both of you, fucking take it to Thunderdome. This shit is tedious and unproductive, as has been repeatedly stated by PZ, and that’s why it isn’t allowed on any of the regular threads on Pharyngula. Let people have a productive fucking discussion without your obsessive harping at each other. I’m sitting here enjoying receiving mostly positive and productive comments in my email, and I’m starting to see you two pick at each other just like you poisoned the inbox when I was on TET. This is not the fucking place.
Utakata
August 19, 2012 at 6:32 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That does…read like a convoluted concern troll, doesn’t it Natalie. O.O
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 6:44 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Sorry if I haven’t expressed myself clearly. I’m pretty sure it isn’t productive to always try and pigeon hole people as to what type of troll they are being.
Basically I am opposed to sexism, racism, homophobia… etc… wherever I see it, but I do not think this means there must be some systemic cause, above and beyond capitalist exploitation, to explain the existence of these behaviours. In fact I think concepts like patriarchy theory are fundamentally flawed.
francblak
August 19, 2012 at 6:47 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
If you’re all set on A+, that’s okay, but I think A! (factorial) would be better, because our position is much more a product of all the sub-positions that factor into it than just a simple sum. And besides, there is the plain text ambiguity issue.
AdamTM
August 19, 2012 at 6:55 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Women are a minority now?
Last stats I’ve seen suggest quite the contrary…
Sophia, Michelin-starred General of the First Mediterranean Iron Chef Batallion
August 19, 2012 at 6:56 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey, at least we’ve got a nice example of the exact nature of the problem.
All this is totally useless, every person who’s posted here is an armchair slacktivist and a whiner who’s simply looking for a logo to rally behind. Women aren’t oppressed (just whiny), minorities are just lazy and LBGTQI people are just confused.
Of course, if we’d all just man up and shut up and pull ourselves up by the bootstraps then we’d all find that our problems magically ceased to exist.
Because reality is a patriarchal libertarian fantasy world and if minority groups would just shut up and get back in the closet/kitchen/psych ward then we* could all just get on with our happy, normal lives.
*you know, normal, proper, default people. Teh White Cis Hetero Psychonormative Menz.
Steve Schuler
August 19, 2012 at 6:56 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hell Yeah!!!
A+, aka Third Wave Atheism, is gonna Rock The World!
Just look at how ‘The Movement’ came through for Alex Aan.
Pa-Fucking-Thetic…
abb3w
August 19, 2012 at 6:57 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
An interesting design mutation to the meme.
Good luck with the experiment.
mandrellian
August 19, 2012 at 6:59 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
francblak @ 73
Positive, irreverent atheism:
Fuckin’ A! :)
hjhornbeck
August 19, 2012 at 7:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I, a completely unbiased stranger, would also like to vote for that forgotten logo.
adjusts his fake moustache
More seriously, I could give two shakes about what logo or name we use. It’s insignificant compared to what we stand for and what we hope to accomplish. Jadehawk’s left one is my fave of those in the current parent post, but I haven’t checked out any from this comment thread yet.
Martin S Pribble
August 19, 2012 at 7:03 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
While I love this idea, and think it’s bout time, I’m wondering if you know about the fact that RDFRS already has an “A+”, which is “Non-Believers Giving Aid”. I own the teeshirt, and wonder if Dr Dawkins may have copyright claims over it?
http://store.richarddawkins.net/products/non-believers-giving-aid-t-shirt
leftwingfox
August 19, 2012 at 7:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Sign. Me. Up.
pilot
August 19, 2012 at 7:09 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m really sorry for showing a basic amount of human compassion. Also for not being a mind-reader, and for being ignorant of your specific situation. I won’t try to be nice again.
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 7:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I was thinking along those lines as well, which is kind of why I like the idea of atheism plus, rather than wresting control of the word atheism. That lets people sneak in under the plus part who might shy away from the atheism part, and let them get comfortable with it before jumping all the way in.
Sophia, Michelin-starred General of the First Mediterranean Iron Chef Batallion
August 19, 2012 at 7:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Basic compassion = assuming the person hasn’t sought help and criticising their aupport of a movement that you clearly have no undrestading of.
Ohhhh, right. Thanks for clearing that up, cupcake ;)
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 7:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That was addressed somewhere on one of these threads – they’ve renamed themselves something else, apparently.
pilot
August 19, 2012 at 7:16 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well okay. Your “movement” is doomed to be forgotten in about a month by the retards currently posting in this thread and you’ll still be a stupid crazy bitch.
scrutationaryarchivist
August 19, 2012 at 7:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Your comment about grades gave me an idea: If the “A+” symbol becomes widely known, would religious schools start to reconsider how they grade schoolwork?
Hmmm….
Marcus Ranum
August 19, 2012 at 7:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Atheism++
it’s atheir!
leftwingfox
August 19, 2012 at 7:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I see nothing wrong with being a subtype.
Atheist is my Genus, + is my species.
scrutationaryarchivist
August 19, 2012 at 7:21 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
They’re next meetup will be on August 26. If there are any Blag Hag readers in or near Portland, Oregon, maybe they’ll stop by and say hello?
Sophia, Michelin-starred General of the First Mediterranean Iron Chef Batallion
August 19, 2012 at 7:22 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Ah… nice when they show their true colours. Makes the job so much easier. :)
Extinction burst – indeed.
carlie
August 19, 2012 at 7:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It’s not just atheir, it’s the atheist!
Oh, wait.
mandrellian
August 19, 2012 at 7:28 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thanks for your enlightened and insightful criticism and your great ideas.
Oh, wait, sorry – it’s easy to mistake those for spiteful fucking trolling.
Oh, wait, no it isn’t.
pilot
August 19, 2012 at 7:30 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Good luck with your therapy. I mean that.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 7:31 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
nothing social is “inherently” anything. However, you’re absolutely wrong if you think our society as it currently exists isn’t racists, sexist, homophobic, etc.
you’re wrong. it’s motivated by both. However, our society is not just capitalist. Claiming that only one axis of oppression exists is denialism.
denialism of intersectionality. we’re living in both a capitalist system and a patriarchy.
you’re wrong. racism, sexism, etc. exist in anarchist and communist subcultures, and these axes of oppression will not disappear if capitalism ever does. You are throwing people suffering from other oppresions under the bus, and are starting to sound more and more like a “manarchist”.
you’re wrong. dangerously so.
As I said elsewhere, anarchists/communists who think classism is the sole problem in a society are useless (and they are not part of an intersectional movement, obviously)
Martin S Pribble
August 19, 2012 at 7:31 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oh cool, I must have missed that. Just wouldn’t want to start any troubles if they could be avoided.
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 7:32 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well, I’d been the one commenting about that, but now I’m not sure what’s going on – there’s the A+ on that shirt, but with the Non-Believers Giving Aid name. The person who originally asked about this had said the name was Atheists Giving Aid (thus using the A+), and when I saw the website currently said Non-Believers Giving Aid and NBGA (and didn’t have the A+ logo anywhere), I thought they’d renamed it. But maybe the name was NBGA all along despite using the atheist A? Since the logo doesn’t appear on the website, and they say there that t-shirt design (which seems to be the only current use of the logo?) is obsolete, maybe they’re moving to something else.
Hershele Ostropoler
August 19, 2012 at 7:33 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thoughts before I read the comments: I’m reminded of a point Greta Christina’s made, that atheism is lacking in institutions, is too much defined privatively.
But “anti-oppression rationalist” ought to be a pleonasm.
Sally Strange
August 19, 2012 at 7:34 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You are a bad person. You say horrible things and you should feel bad about yourself.
bovarchist
August 19, 2012 at 7:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Shouldn’t it be A-?
Atheism minus common sense
Atheism minus honesty
Atheism minus respect
Atheism minus self awareness
Atheism minus reason
Atheism minus courage
Sophia, Michelin-starred General of the First Mediterranean Iron Chef Batallion
August 19, 2012 at 7:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
For the regressives? Of course it should.
“A-, maintaining the status quo For Great Injustice”
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 7:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
See clarification below: http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/08/atheism/#comment-97582
I was starting from the premise provided in the original question, that the name started off as Atheists Giving Aid (and now that it’s not that name, they wouldn’t use that logo), but that may not have been correct (upon further research it seems they were Non-Believers Giving Aid all along). So there does remain some question/concern about this, and a contact with RDF would probably be a good idea.
BreadGod
August 19, 2012 at 7:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You’re retarded.
bovarchist
August 19, 2012 at 7:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The question isn’t whether FTB supports the rights of sex workers. The question is whether they support the rights of johns. Can’t have one without the other.
So, do they?
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 7:38 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“Nothing” except that it’s a rhetorical dead end. Maybe you’d like to respond to any of my arguments?
Sally Strange
August 19, 2012 at 7:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yeah, that would be the people who are being left behind. It is an apt description.
BreadGod
August 19, 2012 at 7:41 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
So Atheism+ is basically atheism combined with radical feminism. Yeah, this is obvious proof that the atheist movement has been usurped by complete lunatics. Atheism simply means you don’t believe in the divine. That is what it has always meant, and that is what it will always mean.
Timid Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 7:44 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And my axe.
Nathair
August 19, 2012 at 7:44 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yeah, like what exactly? What positions, significant to the issue at hand (social justice, equality, etc.) do all atheists, Pol Pot, Than Shwe, Jeffrey Dahmer, Thunderfoot, Noam Chomsky, Dan Dennet, A.C. Grayling right on down to you and I automatically and inescapably share? Please be specific.
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 7:46 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
:D
See? We don’t need a new label! We’ve already ‘usurped’ the old one!
Sally Strange
August 19, 2012 at 7:47 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fuck manarchists.
Anonymous Atheist
August 19, 2012 at 7:47 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The different color plus helps call attention to it not being the standard red A we’re now used to seeing.
rrede
August 19, 2012 at 7:48 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Love this idea SO much. Have only recently begun reading/commenting over here–have written about it, and linked, in my Dreamwidth Journal (I’m ithiliana over there)–Dreamwidth is a social networking site with a high incidence of fans who are involved with social justice issues!
http://ithiliana.dreamwidth.org/1676442.html
strange gods before me ॐ
August 19, 2012 at 7:49 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Wow, that’s a fantastic misunderstanding! One might almost suspect it of being a deliberate one.
That X follows from Y does not mean everyone will notice that X follows from Y.
hieropants
August 19, 2012 at 7:50 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You know, my first introduction to the rationalist movement was when a co-worker of mine recommended a selection of blogs on critical thinking to me. I started checking them out, and almost immediately I found a post on one where the author was defending another blogger who had said some ridiculously sexist things on the basis that “women also stereotype men” so women weren’t allowed to complain about men stereotyping women. This was on a blog that purported to be about overcoming bias. As soon as I read this post, and saw from the comments that it was a norm rather than an exception, I rolled my eyes and ceased to hold any interest in the movement whatsoever.
I would definitely describe that post and its apologists as “minus self-awareness”. I suspect that this new subgroup will be more open to the idea of introspection and self-criticism than the previous groups were.
marcos raaolcarot collins
August 19, 2012 at 7:51 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes, I agree that this is called Humanism. That’s what I call myself, and the description in this blog of Atheism+ is exactly why I consider myself Humanist.
hieropants
August 19, 2012 at 8:05 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
True. But what is the point of a movement centered around a lack of belief in something? I never considered that atheism had any kind of intrinsic worth until people started using it as justification for secular humanist causes on the basis that religion was inherently antithetical to progressivism. I can understand why people would want to be part of a group that they think makes them smarter than everyone else, and I have to admit that I have a tendency to bask in my own smug superiority when I’m exposed to other people’s ridiculous belief systems, but I understand that it’s completely self-serving and helps no one other than myself. I simply don’t believe atheism matters unless it’s being used to improve people’s lives, so if a significant segment of the current atheist movement disagrees, I think it makes perfect sense to start a submovement where progressivism is a stated goal.
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 8:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_humanism
since the above is a thing, you cannot claim that humanism inherently excludes religion, any more than I can claim that feminism does, even though for me and other atheist feminists it obviously does.
no such problems with an atheism+
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 8:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/384500/minority
the more you know, the less silly you sound when sounding off on a topic.
TerranRich
August 19, 2012 at 8:16 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And these dirty socks I found on the floor!
Seriously though, I would (and will) be proud to call myself an “Atheist Plus…”
Ibis3, member of the Oppressed Sisterhood fanclub
August 19, 2012 at 8:40 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
ooo. It just hit me that the + sign is also the symbol for an intersection.
I’m liking it more and more.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven
August 19, 2012 at 8:42 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Or ∫A
Integrated atheism. :D
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven
August 19, 2012 at 8:45 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Ethically stunted white hetero males who are GOING TO BE RICH ANY DAY NOW AND THEN YOU’LL BE SORRY, of course.
EdW
August 19, 2012 at 8:46 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I keep arriving late to the really interesting discussions!
I had a thought, though — Book title, or blog series title… “Atheism + Me” — stories from minority, female, and differently-abled atheists, that would help to voice the concerns of this new wave.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven
August 19, 2012 at 8:48 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think it’s time to follow Wilhelm II’s lead…
Ibis3, member of the Oppressed Sisterhood fanclub
August 19, 2012 at 8:49 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I second this motion. I’m tired of explaining that no one equated inappropriate propositioning of someone in an enclosed space with rape. They know that they are lying and strawmanning like the worst creationists but they keep coming back for more. I’m tired of whiners asking for the data about sexual harassment at conferences knowing full well that we don’t even have policies in place to deal with it, let alone scientific studies of incidence. Earlier this week, I suggested responding to these trolls with their creationist equivalents, but this works, and works much better.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven
August 19, 2012 at 8:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You know, at the risk of a Godwin, I’m suddenly reminded of the story I heard about a Private Adolf Hitler in the United States army who, when asked if he’d thought about changing his name, snarled “let the other guy change his!” (I don’t seem to be able to find a reference for it.)
Same principle?
scrutationaryarchivist
August 19, 2012 at 8:59 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Just a note on the A+ symbol. Beware of people making cheap comparisons.
There may, in the future, be some attempts by some transhumanists to argue for a connection between themselves and inclusive atheism. This is because an “H+” logo is used by a group called Humanity+, and also they might identify with some common goals.
However, a lot of transhumanists have a “libertarian” bent. The H+ people seem to have been trying to get away from that, but I don’t think they’ve gotten very far.
I just want to give folks notice to be a bit cautious if anyone starts implying a connection between A+ and H+. Such connections may be valid for individuals who identify both ways (and more power to them), but personally I don’t think there should be any formal or organizational relationship.
And by the way, the Wikipedia disambiguation page lists several other meanings for “A+”. It’s kind of amusing.
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 9:07 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
lol @ “manarchist”
I love it.
citpeks
August 19, 2012 at 9:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I have been reading all the blogs here on ftb and Skepchick for a long time but i have not been much of a participant. As a waspy male whose now replaced the p with an a in wasp , and raised in a wealthy private christian prep school that pumped me full of privilege messages, I want to chime in to say thank you to Jen, rebekah Watson, surly Amy and any others who have been putting up with this shit. Your blogging has helped me a lot in understanding my blind spots and getting over the bs that was ingrained in me over the years. I’ve always enjoyed the bigfoot and homeopathy bashing of the skeptic movement, but it was comments like rw’s ” don’t do that” that made me perk up my ears and think that there was some stuff that was really applicable to making myself a better person to be found here. Stuff that I was totally blind to before. I have stayed out of the fray mostly because I just did not have the time to stay on top of all the comments and such, but I want to chime in now to say thanks and let you know you have another ally. I don’t have the time to make all the arguments myself, but I want to let you know you do have one more person standing behind you. Thanks. Pardon any typos and any bad autocorrects, as this was composed on my iPad. Keep up the good work. A +
Dylan
August 19, 2012 at 9:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
@ bovarchist
I just read this blog by Greta Christina…
“Only Losers Dine At Le Cirque: The Stigma on Sex Work Customers”
Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the FreethoughtBlogs Star Chamber
August 19, 2012 at 9:40 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Does this mean class privilege, too? Can we try to bring on board more people who can educate us on economics, or neoliberalism, or media irresponsibility, or other such extremely amazingly important things like that?
Please? Please? Can we kick out the libertarians and neoliberals and liberal economics and all those assholes no matter what they believe outside of economics?
Jadehawk
August 19, 2012 at 9:46 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
not surprised in the slightest. anticapitalism, too, will be intersectional or it will be bullshit. so: learn how to not be a denialist of other axes of oppression, or GTFO
DTdNav
August 19, 2012 at 9:48 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Ditto. I’m another white male atheist greatly surprised by the comments and reactions regarding this subject over the past several months. As cynical as I am I guess I shouldn’t have been surprised by the oh so human behavior of some of my “bros.” Reading, listening, and observing has also taught me a great deal about my own views and how they could have negatively affected others. I’ll probably still just watch from the wings, but I hope to see this new idea take off and fly on its own. I wish you all the best of luck and I look forward to seeing someone with an A+ symbol somewhere on their person. Who knows, maybe I’ll actually have one myself somewhere.
Fiona
August 19, 2012 at 9:52 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I love it.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Jafafa Hots
August 19, 2012 at 9:52 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Are there potential trademark issues with the big red A?
Harrison Gross
August 19, 2012 at 10:06 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I don’t think you understand what “radical feminism” is. It is generally used similarly to a weasel word to attack people and undermine their points. However, there are a group of feminists who self-label as radical feminists. A meeting of them met up in London, and they excluded transpeople from their meeting because there was an opinion of the organizers that anyone who was a male of any sort cannot help feminism.
That is a type of destructive radical feminism. There has been nothing of the sort in this. I am sick and tired of people declaring someone as a radical just to make their points less important. The connotations that have been imbued in that compared to the word maverick are somewhat obvious. I do not know what you think of feminism in general, but as far as I can tell not many here self-identify as radical feminists. Please stop saying things that are very likely untrue.
Stan Brooks
August 19, 2012 at 10:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Absolutely!! And by the way it was a pleasure meeting you and all your crew at the RW gig for Seattle Atheists/Seattle Skeptics. I got your last “Skeptical in Seattle” piece and am looking forward to whatever you envision for this new A+ idea.
hjhornbeck
August 19, 2012 at 10:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You wouldn’t happen to have a towel I could use to wipe tea off my monitor, would you? I can trade you this barrel of WIN…
DrMcCoy
August 19, 2012 at 10:21 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
If you call this radical feminism, what do you call actual radical feminism, pray tell?
Fiona
August 19, 2012 at 10:24 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is a good article on it http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2011/09/radical_feminism_transphobia
Uncle Stabby
August 19, 2012 at 11:02 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Remember, anything but Zapfino.
mandrellian
August 19, 2012 at 11:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Which is the entire fucking point of the “PLUS”.
Can someone please tell me what is so difficult to comprehend about this?
Noone is trying to redefine atheism. What they are doing is saying “Atheist is an incomplete description of who I am and what I stand for.”
It’s an expansion, not a redefinition. If people want to continue to be defined by a single thing they don’t believe, that’s perfectly ok. Other atheists want others to know what they DO believe in.
Hence Atheism PLUS.
rowanvt
August 19, 2012 at 11:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You… don’t believe in Patriarchy.
Which gender usually is *assumed* will be taking the last name of the other in a heterosexual relationship?
Which gender usually does the asking for “permission to wed your child”?
Which gender parent usually is asked for “permission to wed your child”?
Which gender is thereby implied to be incapable of making their own decision about whom to marry via the idea of asking permission of a parent to wed the other individual?
Which gender usually is *assumed* will stay home with children?
Which gender are cleaning products aimed at?
Which gender typically pops into mind first when hearing the word “receptionist” or “secretary”?
Which gender typically pops into mind first when hearing the word “doctor” or “CEO”?
rowanvt
August 19, 2012 at 11:29 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And I don’t want to have anything at all to do with an atheist who does not support equality for everyone in the human race, regardless of gender, orientation, ability, race, etc. As a woman, I *especially* do not want to be in a group where I can meet face to face with people who think I’m making a big fuss when I don’t like to be alone with strange men, despite having 3 close calls with sexual assault. They are asshats. I want nothing of them.
JesseW, the Juggling Janitor
August 19, 2012 at 11:56 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Count me in. (Now to just figure out how best to take useful *action* in my local area: San Diego, California.)
Emptyell
August 20, 2012 at 12:39 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well I’m an Adam Smith Marxist aka free market socialist (though I stop short of libertarian anarchism).
Would you kick me out too?
Emptyell
August 20, 2012 at 12:48 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey Jen,
I’ve sketched up a few quick logos and would like to share them but don’t have any convenient way to do it. Is there some way to do this? No big deal but it would be fun to put together a bunch of them. The possibilities are endless. It also seems that the basicl idea is strong enough that having variations (speciation) in the wild won’t dilute it’s effectiveness.
cityzenjane
August 20, 2012 at 1:02 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fanfuckingtastic!
If you need or want background on the depth of debate around this topic there are a lot of willing feminist sex workers on YT speaking to their issues… So before jumping in here…go listen there….
(This IS great)
B-Lar
August 20, 2012 at 1:03 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A-
Barry Pearson
August 20, 2012 at 1:22 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I believe in Atheism+, but I call it “Enlightenment”. See my old post:
Dimensions of enlightenment
My aim has been to put a range of related topics on a sounder and consistent footing. So my dimensions (in the absence of a better set) are “cognition”, “knowledge”, “empathy”, and “governance”. (See my post above).
These can cover Skepticism and evidence-based reasoning, equality and peer-appreciation (opposed to misogyny and misandry), secular democracy, etc.
cityzenjane
August 20, 2012 at 1:22 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A bit to sleepy to read through all of the comments..
created FB Atheism+ Page… looking for co-moderators!
Let’s have an ATHEISM+ WEEK sometime soon…
Wave if you want to help!
cityzenjane
August 20, 2012 at 1:28 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Atheism/304393882992588
Please LIKE…and send me some good cover art! Also – let me know what logo we’d like to use for the FB page…
Utakata
August 20, 2012 at 1:54 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
So…pilot in two of Jen’s articles admitted he was trolling and a bigot. Can we have him /killfiled please?
cityzenjane
August 20, 2012 at 1:57 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Consider that A+ privileges walk over talk….winning via rhetoric is not the only way to win. Worrying too much about anything but creating a space where those agree can gather, work things out and fly their masthead for future deepening of intention and coherence among those who wish to work on this might be enough…
cityzenjane
August 20, 2012 at 2:00 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Let’s not jump the gun…intersectionality means groups build a platform and priorities together from the start…
The call to action needs work….and expansion of concerns…
Utakata
August 20, 2012 at 2:02 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
We’re the A+ group, the A- group which you’re looking for is over at ERV, Thunderf00t, JREF, et al…
…and what others said here.
John McC
August 20, 2012 at 2:11 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m with AA, I like that circled A+
Atrax Robusta
August 20, 2012 at 2:20 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I have to delurk in support of A+.
Thank you all for having the time, patience, energy and sanity to keep things moving forwards.
I will also be purchasing my first Surlyramics in honor of this occasion ( mind you there are other motivations ).
Most Sincerely,
Brett.
cityzenjane
August 20, 2012 at 2:29 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
EDIT
We are…
Atheists plus we care about social justice,
Atheists plus we support women’s rights,
Atheists plus we protest racism,
Atheists plus we fight homophobia and transphobia,
Atheists plus we undermine ableism, (wording?)
Atheists plus we use critical thinking and skepticism.
It speaks to those of us who see atheism as more than just a lack of belief in god.
Molly
August 20, 2012 at 3:03 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Could we get bracelets with the logo?
Ana
August 20, 2012 at 3:09 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Even last week, in my usually safe atheist online community, I had a guy say that FTB was “all about drama and no action”. I just rubbed this post in his face, and damn it felt GOOD. xD
I love it. I always identified more with Secular Humanism than with Atheism, and to have Atheism PLUS Humanism, to be actually able to be an atheist activist in a safe place, with people who share more than a lack of belief in deities, is FSM-sent. =)
They say it’s always darker before the dawn, and I can’t wait to see this sun. I’ve been secretly thankful that I don’t live in America, that I don’t actively participate in atheist activism online, I even decided not to blog because I didn’t want to get pulled into all the horrible shitstorms. Now, I’m slightly sad that I don’t get to be there, first-hand, to help raise this new voice. But even from an ocean away, I’m excited to be a part of it!
Molly
August 20, 2012 at 3:14 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’ve been kicking around the idea with a few other skeptics about doing a weekly podcast about atheist plus issues (i.e. how religion normalizes heterosexuality, how the Christian narrative in the US impacts the role of women.) Would anyone be interested in doing working on something like this?
carlie
August 20, 2012 at 4:11 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Who made the twitter account?
Tim
August 20, 2012 at 4:29 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m just going to join the flood of lurkers by popping my head up and saying that I think this is a brilliant idea!
I look forward to seeing what comes out of this.
billhaines
August 20, 2012 at 4:34 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
There are still some religious or quasi-religious Humanists around, many within the Unitarian Universalist umbrella. That’s why the atheistic version is called -Secular- Humanism. ;) And Secular Humanism -is- what Jen’s talking about, at least in part. :)
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?page=what§ion=main
http://www.americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_III
AdamTM
August 20, 2012 at 4:35 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Nope, still not seeing a reference to women in there.
Must be because the website is run by heterosexual white men.
billhaines
August 20, 2012 at 4:41 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think of Humanism as “the TLCs” and Atheism+ definitely falls into them…
Think, Love, Create
Teach, Learn, Conserve
Tolerate, Liberate, Cheer
…so also looking forward to seeing what comes of this. :)
Michael Chermside
August 20, 2012 at 5:14 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Just wanted to say, I support this movement. Oh, and the logo by “One Thousand Needles” looks awesome.
Alyson Miers
August 20, 2012 at 5:59 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yeah, we fail to “respect” the people who tell us to get back in the kitchen. We should be so ashamed of ourselves.
Sam Barnett-Cormack
August 20, 2012 at 6:13 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I started one once, focussing on the whole non-theist Quaker thing, but I made a few posts and then real life got in the way, and then it seemed pointless to go back to it…
Sam Barnett-Cormack
August 20, 2012 at 6:17 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I can’t believe I read that comment, replied to it even, and didn’t notice the casual ablism. A fair portion of my online time is disability activism…
*hangs head in shame*
Sam Barnett-Cormack
August 20, 2012 at 6:37 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Okay, I don’t know if this is a transatlantic difference, but can we say something other than “differently abled”? It’s patronising and inaccurate, to my mind, and to the other disabled people and orgs I’m involved in here in the UK. We prefer the social model of disability, in which being “disabled” is an acceptable term, because it refers to what society imposes on you, not anything about yourself.
Some conditions fit the term reasonably well, as they tend to represent mixed blessings, but most long-term conditions really don’t. How does my balance problem give me any ability that others don’t have? It only restricts me. Plus ‘able’ isn’t a verb, so one can’t, grammatically, be ‘abled’ at all – ‘disabled’ is a verb, so one can be ‘disabled’.
However, I do mean all this from a UK perspective. I’m aware that the terms and conceptions that are preferred differ across the Atlantic.
Michael
August 20, 2012 at 6:41 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
According to this site
http://outcampaign.org/promotions
“The red “A” logo is copyright RDFRS, but that’s to prevent others from claiming it and blocking people from using it. The red “A” is sybolic of Atheists and RDFRS is very happy that it has become a general meme for Atheism.”
I’m not sure how they will view it being modified though.
Michael
Marina
August 20, 2012 at 6:42 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hi Jen,not sure if you’ll see this. I read this your blog a lot but almost never get to the comments. I’ve never commented before, but what you’re doing moves me to declare my delight and support.
My husband is a big fan of yours and he sent me your Declaration of Independence/ call for revolution post.
It’s amazing!
I’ve been an atheist for twelve years but have been thoroughly put off ‘movement atheism’ by the reek of sexism and ‘nu-uhhhh we can’t talk about it!’ that I’ve seen. I’m engaged in feminist activism and social justice activism but have long decided that atheists don’t get one kilojoule of my precious energy until they stop being such universal dickheads.
Please do this thing, and I will be joining you. I’ve got two sons under three years old, and we’re raising them to think critically about all of the power structures in their lives, not just the ones that are easy and comfortable to challenge.
Godspeed!
(just kidding)
Sam Barnett-Cormack
August 20, 2012 at 6:45 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’d hope people could agree on common ground, like opposing class privilege, and the broad point that none should suffer the indignities of poverty. That leaves plenty of economic views open, but maintains a basic view of social and economic justice.
adrianaheguy
August 20, 2012 at 6:50 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I would buy one too!! I love the A+ idea (just not in red, though :-)
Dexeron
August 20, 2012 at 6:57 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Soe exciting to see so many people responding positively! I am so buying an A+ Surlyramic when they come out.
drbunsen, le savant fous
August 20, 2012 at 7:20 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Your inability to comprehend the meaning of common words is noted.
drbunsen, le savant fous
August 20, 2012 at 7:25 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Some days the comedy just writes itself.
edmundog
August 20, 2012 at 7:33 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Really, dude? You don’t think women “coexist with, but are subordinate to” men? Where have you been?
drbunsen, le savant fous
August 20, 2012 at 7:40 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You know, there’s a mountain of solid, statistical sociological research to indicate just how mistaken you are about patriarchy and sexism in our societies. An honest interlocutor would investigate that evidence, rather than vomiting their “opinion” everywhere. You misapprehensions are no more credible than greenhouse denialism.
drbunsen, le savant fous
August 20, 2012 at 7:44 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Even cats will only put up with being sprayed with cold water for so long, especially when there’s delicious tuna-flavored justice in the air.
BreadGod
August 20, 2012 at 7:44 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“Noone is trying to redefine atheism.”
Yes you are.
“What they are doing is saying “Atheist is an incomplete description of who I am and what I stand for.” ”
If you want to define yourself by your activism, go right ahead. Just don’t lump atheism together with a bunch of irrelevant bullshit.
“It’s an expansion, not a redefinition. If people want to continue to be defined by a single thing they don’t believe, that’s perfectly ok. Other atheists want others to know what they DO believe in.
Hence Atheism PLUS.”
Jen McCreight created Atheism+ so as to fellate her ego and take over the atheist movement. Atheism means not believing in the divine. Nothing more. Stop trying to lump it together with irrelevant bullshit.
BreadGod
August 20, 2012 at 7:45 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
If that’s the case, I want to combine atheism with anarchism. This is a serious proposal, by the way.
BreadGod
August 20, 2012 at 7:46 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You’re retarded too.
Pteryxx
August 20, 2012 at 7:49 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’ve lost count of how many new names and self-ID’d lurkers have come out in support of this concept. Note that a few have actually stated they’ve stayed away from commenting, and/or from atheism as a community and movement, specifically because of the hateful attitudes found there. This really is the best evidence so far of just how much silencing there is – tolerance of bigotry has directly kept away a huge segment of the potential atheist community, until now.
BreadGod
August 20, 2012 at 7:50 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“If you don’t agree with me on everything then that means you are the scum of the Earth!”
Typical FTB behavior.
BreadGod
August 20, 2012 at 7:52 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
@Sally Strange:
“You are a bad person. You say horrible things and you should feel bad about yourself.”
How old are you? 12?
“You’re a meanie. I make angry face at you!”
Amanda M
August 20, 2012 at 7:54 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Ha! I love the logo. This is such a cool idea. I’m totally, totally in. ^_^
Rieux
August 20, 2012 at 8:11 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Ceramics are nice (especially given the artist who’s benefitting from the business), but surely we need t-shirts and other swag, as well….
Sam Barnett-Cormack
August 20, 2012 at 8:12 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Perhaps it’s just my Quaker learnings, but I’d say you can dress up social justice, opposition to homophopia, transphobia, misogyny, ablism etc up in one word… equality. Though you’d want to expand what it meant, as people get into all sorts of tangles and straw man arguments if you just say you want equality.
Not that I’d want to say it’s the same as being a Quaker – because there’s a decided amount of non-compatible bits of liberal Quaker practice. However, equality is one of the four “testimonies” the Britain Yearly Meeting uses to describe liberal Quaker beliefs, and it sounds like A+ is on board with the broad strokes of that one, so I wonder how people react to the other three…
There’s Equality, as I’ve said. The other three are Truth, Simplicity, and Peace. Quakers were originally pretty much absolute pacifists, though views vary much more today, so the Peace one is pretty straightforward, though it also encompasses the general avoidance of conflict, not through just avoiding it straight out and ignoring it, but by sensible resolution, as swift as may be. Simplicity is about avoiding needless complications in life – originally it was exemplified by the fairly standardised Quaker dress, and avoidance of ostentation. When Friends realised that Quaker dress had ended up being an ostentation in itself, it was mostly abandoned, so there’s no outward signifier of it, but the general gist is that you don’t get things you don’t need – though ‘need’ is interpreted variously. For example, a need for entertainment is reasonable, but a need for it to be delivered on a 50″ plasma is mostly not. Truth is about telling truth, but also about being true to one’s principles, keeping one’s word, that sort of things. It was never taken to be an absolute always-tell-truth, but there has always been a sense that one has to have a good reason not to (say, helping escaped slaves on the Underground Railroad, or concealing Jewish people from the Third Reich). It’s why Quaker affirm, rather than swearing oaths – an oath implies that you have two standards for the telling of truth, that it matters more in one context than another.
So, not wanting to talk ears off or annoy people – and emphatically not wanting to convince anyone – do those principles speak to people in any way like the Equality ones?
Sam Barnett-Cormack
August 20, 2012 at 8:15 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
On a more meta note, I just want to say that I miss being able to ‘like’ comments here. I can’t just reply to every post I would ‘like’ if it were possible… so many great comments.
rowanvt
August 20, 2012 at 8:24 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Equality for all is irrelevant bullshit? I’m glad you’ve openly declared your opinion on that, so now I can work to fervently avoid more exposure to you. I’d rather visit my fundamentalist relatives as they apparently have a better ethical stance than you do.
Beth
August 20, 2012 at 8:40 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And you are most cordially invited to find another group or movement which better suits your opinions and style of expression.
fodigg
August 20, 2012 at 8:48 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I like it. I mean, it’s just marketing, but all too often I see the strict dictionary definition of atheism used (by theists and some atheists) to decry and dismiss the skeptic/rationalist/atheist movement. The argument being that nothing does (or should) unite the atheist community other than disregard for the supernatural, and that anything outside that is off message, even if it follows from the rational outlook.
I feel that the idea of “Atheism+” or “A+” is a good branding message to show how many atheists see their atheism or skepticism as an internal call to action on social issues. Essentially, “Atheism + Humanism.” Of the presented logos, I prefer the familiar scarlet A with the blue plus symbol in it.
Thank you for posting this and the previous post that inspired it. I regret that they’re necessary; so it goes.
fodigg
August 20, 2012 at 8:54 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Interesting! Thanks for pointing that out. I actually fall into both categories (atheist/humanist and pro-transhumanism) but I can see how some might not.
BreadGod
August 20, 2012 at 8:56 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“Equality for all is irrelevant bullshit? I’m glad you’ve openly declared your opinion on that, so now I can work to fervently avoid more exposure to you. I’d rather visit my fundamentalist relatives as they apparently have a better ethical stance than you do.”
Another example of FTB behavior. You take what I said and you completely misconstrue it. “You dare not agree with us? Then you are a traitor! Shun the apostate!” What I’m trying to say is that atheism should simply mean not believing in the divine. It doesn’t need to be loaded down with pointless baggage. If you want to fight for equality for all, fine. But don’t drag atheism into it and try to redefine it.
BreadGod
August 20, 2012 at 8:56 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
If you ask me, all this Atheism+ bullshit will be completely forgotten in about a month by all of the retards currently fawning over it.
rowanvt
August 20, 2012 at 9:08 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*patpats* It’s okay. I know it’s scary to have people want nothing to do with you, but there are other people out there who would love to have you in their ranks. Go free, angry scared person! Lift your fingers to Google and find your ilk!
adamgordon
August 20, 2012 at 9:11 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey, here’s an idea, you and pilot should start a club together!
No Gurlz Allowed!
FORMER Fetus
August 20, 2012 at 9:11 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
THE CROSS is a Christian symbol. Forever.
Stop stealing our stuff.
Thank-you.
adamgordon
August 20, 2012 at 9:14 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You should probably take that up with all of these people.
leftwingfox
August 20, 2012 at 9:22 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Fine; I do not share your concern over the rhetorical read end, since I believe the goal of “becoming the type” is not achievable. I think it’s hubris to believe that this will be the one true belief system which will rally mankind, when so many similarly confident politicians and prophets have failed.
Marxism has spawned dozens of variations and compromises, Christianity has split multiple times, genetic subtypes become unique species. Some of those schisms and splits have completely eclipsed the forerunners, while others find success without overthrowing the parent.
Finally, I do not think we need the perfect final end goal. As a short term goal of providing a community that can separate itself from the noxious portion of Atheism, provide a future-oriented idea of what comes next, and helping to rejuvenate and restore the emotional wellbeing of this part of the community is good enough. I have no issues with abandoning “Atheism Plus” for a superior movement we have yet to figure out, or dropping the label if it becomes redundant.
If people feel their Atheism is “enough” with social justice, that’s their prerogative. But for anyone feeling dissatisfaction with the status quo, alienation by bigots and sexists, or economically harmed by free market fundamentalism, then Atheism+ can be there, waiting for them.
Hertta
August 20, 2012 at 9:26 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yours is a torture device. Ours is something positive.
jamessweet
August 20, 2012 at 9:30 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Ah hah hah, that’s awesome. Actually, that makes this symbol even better.
jamessweet
August 20, 2012 at 9:30 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I like it, quite a bit. It’s positive, without that egotistical-ish sound that “brights” had. Upvote from me!
MichaelD
August 20, 2012 at 9:42 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m just back from a trip away from the nets an I just wanted to say I love this idea ^.^
fester60613
August 20, 2012 at 9:45 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
During the last month or so I’ve been distracted by the naked misogyny displayed so – well, breathtakingly *effortlessly* in the blogospheres, and that has led to a sense of discouragement and loss.
I understand prejudice, I understand that ignorance breeds hatred and that both are taught by indoctrination just as much as religious belief is taught by indoctrination.
But I do not understand the abuse, the appalling rudenesses and outright hostility leveled at women in the atheist communities.
All of which is to say that I’m behind A+ 100%! I like its inclusiveness and rejection of exclusivity: we have battles to fight on all social and political fronts and it is time to reject the boy’s club mentality.
badweasel
August 20, 2012 at 10:11 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I do love this.
The atheist movement has been a depressing place of late with lots of dead wood stinking up the place.
I wish A+ every success.
Utakata
August 20, 2012 at 10:13 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And what credentials do you have that we need to ask you in the first place?
the7ofSwords
August 20, 2012 at 10:15 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I have to say I really like this idea here, of Atheism PLUS social justice .
But, I have a question: doesn’t this sort of already exist? Isn’t it sort of like secular+ethical humanism? Does it need a new movement? If so, what should it really be called?
There’s an interesting reaction & beginnings of a debate over here: http://lefthemispheres.blogspot.com/2012/08/its-just-atheism-part-ii-or-why-already.html
(Personally, I don’t care what it’s called, so much as I’m glad it exists!)
~Cheers!
The Nerd
August 20, 2012 at 10:24 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yeah in A+, the “plus” is humanism.
I’m on board with a good movement no matter what it’s called.
But let’s not pretend this is the first time someone’s discovered that atheism needs a “plus”.
carlie
August 20, 2012 at 10:26 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A cross has a bottom piece that is longer than the others. This has all the pieces the same size.
carlie
August 20, 2012 at 10:27 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think this is different, because it places so much emphasis on critical thinking skills and the scientific method. It’s critical thinking leading to the realization that everyone should be treated equal, rather than love for humanity leading to that realization. Does that make sense?
Walton
August 20, 2012 at 10:30 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I think another issue with which atheists need to be engaging is immigrants’ rights and immigration reform, including the rights of undocumented immigrants. If we’re serious about anti-racism and social justice, we need to be critical of a system in which people are deprived of basic human rights, stigmatized, and sometimes detained for long periods and separated from their families, all because of their nationality and immigration status. We need to be talking about the shameful conditions in immigration detention facilities around the world, and about the highly racialized nature of immigration enforcement. And we need to be talking about the billion-dollar profits that the private security industry is reaping from locking up immigrants.
We need to have a dialogue on this issue, and it’s something I’ve seen discussed far too rarely in the atheist community.
Mocha
August 20, 2012 at 10:31 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m excited that this is coming together from the atheist side of things. I’m already an avid reader (I don’t comment much) of Shakesville, Shakesville’s spin off, Flyover Feminism, The Curvature, and Tiger Beatdown, to name a few of my favorite feminist blogs. I also love these blogs, and this movement that you’re starting, because it goes to show that 1) we can be advocates for more than one thing at a time and 2) we don’t always have to agree on what a movement means.
I’ve always been hesitant about tackling some issues dear to me from the atheist side, mainly because of all the bile that seems to be thrown at people from within the movement. I’m glad you’re taking a stand. I’m glad so many people are willing and eager to join you.
I’m behind A+!
carlie
August 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Plus, I love the idea of rebranding the word atheism. It has a terrible reputation, and attaching it to something good is a great way to reclaim it.
Curmudgeonly Monkey
August 20, 2012 at 10:48 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A+ for A+.
alanwilliamson
August 20, 2012 at 10:53 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
As a computer programmer, I would vote for A++.
Reginald Selkirk
August 20, 2012 at 11:07 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Terrific! Now let’s all circle up, join hands and sing ‘Kumbaya.’
Pigtail Guy
August 20, 2012 at 11:10 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Does this mean Red Cross should start calling themselves Red Plus instead?
stevebarry
August 20, 2012 at 11:11 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Secular Humanism already encompasses these concepts and goals.
The Council for Secular Humanism (via Wiki) lists their principles as follows:
• Need to test beliefs – A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted by faith.
• Reason, evidence, scientific method – A commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence and scientific method of inquiry in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.
• Fulfillment, growth, creativity – A primary concern with fulfillment, growth and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.
• Search for truth – A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.
• This life – A concern for this life (as opposed to an afterlife) and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.
• Ethics – A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.
• Justice and fairness – an interest in securing justice and fairness in society and in eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
• Building a better world – A conviction that with reason, an open exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.
This differs from the proposal for Atheism+ how? I contend that it does not.
Proxer
August 20, 2012 at 11:12 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I like the the whole post, but the line “Atheists plus we use critical thinking and skepticism” really stood out to me. I often hear and read (and agree) that the word Atheist just means that someone doesn’t believe in God, not that they’re a skeptic or humanist or anything else. At the same time, I’ve always wanted to be able to say about myself, in a concise way, what you said so well:
We are…
Atheists plus we care about social justice,
Atheists plus we support women’s rights,
Atheists plus we protest racism,
Atheists plus we fight homophobia and transphobia,
Atheists plus we use critical thinking and skepticism.
A+ is a handy shorthand for all of that. So many leaders of the Atheist movement are already doing A+ work, having an official logo and statement seems natural.
Jules
August 20, 2012 at 11:13 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
You know, if you read the Daily Mail/ watch Fox News every day you start to believe that there’s pedophiles around every corner and it’s immigrants taking all the jobs.
I presume someone went to a lot of effort to promote the original A for atheism. Is that to be regarded as A- from now on?
Perhaps the term ‘True Scotsman’ would be better suited.
Reginald Selkirk
August 20, 2012 at 11:13 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The + looks too much like a cross. How about Angstrom Å
It looks like a halo.
carlie
August 20, 2012 at 11:15 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Does humanism endorse “spirituality”?
Kaela Mensha Khaine
August 20, 2012 at 11:38 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Oh, ye nonexistent gods, YES! I had just some sort of analogue progression. Came to pharyngula for a nice show of stupidity-bashing and cracker-abuse, then was linked to the blaghag and feministe. There, I learned some valuable lessons about privilege and the fine machinations of patriarchy and, well …
… no, it didn’t change my life. I could not without guilt call myself a feminist. There is too much inactivity, too much listening to bad jokes, too much navel-gazing. But it definitly changed the way I was thinking. Should be the same with the movement. And action would be the next logical step.
~G~
August 20, 2012 at 11:44 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“Atheists plus we use critical thinking and skepticism.”
Hooray! I was paranoid this might get left out, but it is so critical to me. Critical thinking is the ladder than has allowed my mind to look over the walls of my culture to see unfairness in society. Perhaps like looking out of Plato’s cave.
PZ said recently in one post that he didn’t know that many non-skeptical atheists. Well I envy him. I run a skeptical group because in my other secular activities there was very little emphasis on discussion of critical thinking such as the psychology of it, self-examination or examination of claims outside of those related to religion and how stupid it is. And yes, I have a MAJOR problem with religion and its evils but like in PZ’s later post (“War of the smug?”) there are a lot of people who want a cookie for getting one answer right.
Einstein supposedly said, “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” Perhaps my version is, “Skepticism without atheism is lame, atheism without skepticism and social justice is blind.”
dogeared, spotted and foxed
August 20, 2012 at 11:53 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Agreed. I’ve seen immigration reform, for-profit prisons, and/or issues of poverty come up on the forums but very rarely. Worse, the conversation devolves into libertarian rhetoric too quickly for any new information or ideas to be exchanged.
It would be more interesting to discuss with people who care about social justice.
~G~
August 20, 2012 at 11:53 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The reason I have avoided using the label “humanism” for myself (although my values fairly match and I am not anti-label) is because I am very uncomfortable with such the detailed codified lists of what my values are if I use that label. Especially if someone else or some committe wrote it! My most general values are constant, but the specifics are dynamic and constantly maturing. If anything, the process of ethical decision making is more important to me than a list of stuff. I also dislike the human-centricity of it. The usual descriptions I see glorify humans a bit much and include only token mention of other sentient beings and the planet. If humanism can be boiled down to fairness, compassion, and rational thought, then I’d be ok with it.
Jennifer, Uppity Bitch and General Malcontent
August 20, 2012 at 11:55 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Completely agreed.
betsumei
August 20, 2012 at 12:06 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Would a subreddit be something that’s somehow worse than a regular reddit?
Anonymous Atheist
August 20, 2012 at 12:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
See http://www.outcampaign.org/promotions – the RDF encourages people to use it and ‘remix’ it.
Kristjan Wager
August 20, 2012 at 12:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The problem is that Å is a separate letter from A
Anonymous Atheist
August 20, 2012 at 12:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
There’s plenty of free image hosting services to choose from – upload your images to one of them, and paste the URLs into a comment: imageshack, imgur, tinypic, etc…
Anonymous Atheist
August 20, 2012 at 12:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
OTN logo FTW. :) You can have a photo album of all the various logos too.
I saw there’s a subreddit linked from the FB page – seems to be off to a great start with lots of content, but I didn’t look at the comments pages, and didn’t see any mention in the sidebar of how comments are going to be handled. Are you planning to try to keep it a ‘safe zone’ free of slimepitty comments? If so, how?
stevebarry
August 20, 2012 at 12:37 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Not secular humanism.
badweasel
August 20, 2012 at 12:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Why would that term be better suited? There is no-one claiming that any atheist who isn’t supportive of A+ isn’t a true atheist. In fact the term ‘third wave of atheism’ specifically does imply that there were and are people who have gone before and promoted atheism. And they have done a lot of good work.
However over this past year or so it has been made clear that some parts of the Atheist community isn’t all that welcoming. Some parts are nasty, trollish and have put off some people identifying with the atheist community. So perhaps its time for those that see a humanist outlook as a natural outcome of being an atheist to identify themselves rather than uncomfortably remain in the big atheist tent under the big red ‘A’ with all the borish misongynists and libertarians within the skeptical community.
Ant Allan
August 20, 2012 at 12:40 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
No, no, no. Anything but Comic Sans!
Otherwise, love it. Inclusive atheism, A+. This is what gnu atheism deserved to be from the start. So, retaining Zapfino shows continuity …
(A++ — an inclusive atheist who’s a computer geek!?)
/@
the7ofSwords
August 20, 2012 at 12:47 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
The trouble with “Feminism” is that it’s constantly being defined and re-defined by non-feminists. And they nearly always get it wrong … intentionally. This is something it has in common with many other words: “Liberalism” and “Socialism” for example.
Someone up the list there referred to feminism as an off-shoot of “feminazis” … is that how bad it’s become? I mean the ignorance on display there is just astonishing.
Feminism. like atheism, is pretty simple to define:
Atheism=no god(s)
Feminism=women, as humans, have all the same rights as every other human (i.e., men)
I don’t understand why this is such a radical notion. That being said, apparently I’m just naive, or something, because the reactions to feminism are mind-boggling in the breadth of their ignorance and hatefulness.
At any rate, much like “Liberalism” has had to revive itself from its low point of almost being a dirty word in the 1980s and 90s, it’s high time Feminism—and all other forms of social justice—did the same. I’m not sure if “atheism” is the best vehicle through which to do this, and we can argue semantics or what the name or logo should be or whatever till we’re blue in the face, but it certainly needs to happen within the atheist/skeptical/Humanist/Free-thought/whatever movement as much as outside it, too, so, you know … right on!
Anonymous Atheist
August 20, 2012 at 12:48 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And how is something that looks like a halo better than something that can be misconstrued to look like a cross (with an easy way to spell it out as ‘plus’ to have an obvious different meaning)?
betsumei
August 20, 2012 at 12:50 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Sure? Seems like a good idea to me.
Anonymous Atheist
August 20, 2012 at 12:53 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes, an intersection of a horizontal and a vertical line is a very simple symbol that has a long history of being used for many purposes before (and after) it was claimed by Christians.
betsumei
August 20, 2012 at 12:53 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Dead wood smells so nice and foresty, though. This is more like dead whale carcasses cluttering up the place.
Jadehawk
August 20, 2012 at 12:54 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
*sigh*
you know, I didn’t spend hours trying to explain to fundies the difference between secular and atheist for you to go muddle the waters O.o
Jadehawk
August 20, 2012 at 1:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
oh, sorry, I didn’t know you were too stupid to think your way out of a paperbag. Let me explain then. “minority” means non-dominant group. It has fuck-all to do with whether the group is more or less than 50% of the population.
women are a minority, by the definition I linked to.
lordshipmayhem
August 20, 2012 at 1:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I must be ahead of the curve on this “new wave of atheism” thing.
I’m an atheist – check. I don’t believe in invisible creatures with supernatural powers, regardless of whether they’ve got ultimate power or minimal wattage, or any level of supernatural power in between.
I’m against harassing my fellow beings – check. I’ve worked in offices for over 30 years, and in all that time it’s the rare (and small) office that didn’t have a written anti-harassment policy. These policies all covered not just sexual harassment, but also racial harassment and any other kind anyone could think of. Those policies made a great deal of sense to anyone with even the slightest iota of empathy. They made sense to anyone with a heartfelt desire to keep one’s ass out of civil court for tort actions, to say nothing of criminal court for criminal harassment charges.
And by extension those anti-harassment policies covered not just the people you worked with, but the firm’s clients and the firm’s suppliers.
The whole thing just made sense.
So you don’t make passes at people who you work with, and you don’t make passes at clients or clients’ agents or staff, and you don’t make passes at vendors or vendors’ agents or staff. Being at a convention, be it for business or pleasure, is just like being at an office – you don’t make passes at presenters or convention staff. They’ve got more important things to do.
The people manning the booths in the vendors’ hall? Yes, they’re called “booth bunnies”, but they’re being paid to be there to make sales, and have to be there. They’ve got better things to do than submit to your lame attempts at making passes.
This is “business ethics 101″. It’s also How To Be Grown Up. It saddens me that some of us supposed adults have never learnt this lesson.
Ubi Dubium
August 20, 2012 at 1:05 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I just recently bought a Surlyramic with the “A” on it. Now I need to think about how to best add the “+” onto it. Probably rhinestones.
Until Amy comes out with the design, then I’ll totally need one of those.
Jadehawk
August 20, 2012 at 1:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
so you’re either a walking oxymoron, or a bog-standard social democrat. I can’t tell from that silly description.
Jadehawk
August 20, 2012 at 1:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
boring troll is boring. as if “no gods, no masters” didn’t just celebrate its 100th birthday.
Ubi Dubium
August 20, 2012 at 1:15 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m in. I’ve just updated my blog to put the “A+” logo where I had the “A”.
Jadehawk
August 20, 2012 at 1:18 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
the “cross” is no such thing. it’s a roman torture device. they had the right to it before you upstarts came along.
but you probably think every intersection is a holy site.
the7ofSwords
August 20, 2012 at 1:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well Secular Humanism places emphasis on Reason, and Ethical Humanism places emphasis on Justice, but I feel like Humanism is in need of the kind of boost that this thing could potentially provide. (Similar to what “New” atheism provided a few years back.)
The ideals are more important than the label, so as long as the “marketing” helps, I don’t care what it’s called!
^_^
Sandiseattle
August 20, 2012 at 1:20 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
From a purely aestetic stand I like Jadehawks bigg red two tone on the left.
Nick Sabot (@nicksabot)
August 20, 2012 at 1:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jen, you were right on track with most of your post yesterday, but you kind of killed it with this one. That last paragraph is exactly the attitude we don’t need. The attitude that says we need self-identifying jewelry to know with whom to associate with.
http://lefthemispheres.blogspot.com/2012/08/its-just-atheism-part-ii-or-why-already.html
CPS
August 20, 2012 at 1:43 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
That is not true. You can disagree with lots of things without being the scum of the earth. Just not whether the battles for minority rights are legitimate causes to fight for. If you disagree with that then you probably are not a particularly awesome person.
Jules
August 20, 2012 at 1:48 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Who are all these libertarians?
If I were to solely read FTB I’d believe that the JREF was full of them.
Over on the JREF forums, the few libertarian posters there are treated with the same skepticism, and sometimes contempt, as 911/climate change deniers.
But that’s beside the point anyway; being liberal, republican or libertarian has nothing to do with atheistic inclusion.
bcoppola
August 20, 2012 at 2:07 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This, and like Jadehawk I’m not usually one for jewelry. Plus, it’s a nice tangible way to show Amy some love after the shit she’s put up with lately. Will compliment my Evil Little Thing t-shirt nicely too.
billhaines
August 20, 2012 at 2:38 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It can. :)
http://www.americanhumanist.org/Humanism/What_is_Humanism
badweasel
August 20, 2012 at 2:55 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Obviously those would be those libertarians getting demolished on the JREF forums. Care to cast doubt on the number of misogynists and trolls now? Perhaps I should not have used Libertarians as an example (clouded as it is with my own negative experience of a few).
But please do tell me why are you are chucking in the terms liberal and republican? As I never mentioned either of those.
Also I never ever said anything about libertarians not being able to be atheists. Nor did I say that they should be excluded from the atheist movement. It would be pointless to do so. We agree on that point so please don’t misconstrue my words.
Anyway, do you care to expand upon your ‘no true Scotsman’ comment? Or the idea that Atheism+ will somehow lead to a denegration of what has gone before within this loose-knit group? Which is why I replied to you in the first place.
Anonymous Atheist
August 20, 2012 at 3:12 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A bit further down the page, it says “Below is a collection of user submitted artwork and remixing which incorporates the “A” logo.” There follows a wide variety of images using the A in various ways, including one from ‘John’ called ‘scarlet atom’ adding an atom symbol intertwined with the A, that to me seems similar in the level/type of modification (or even moreso) as this A+.
Michael
August 20, 2012 at 3:26 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Ah well-spotted. I didn’t scroll far enough.
Michael
Ashleigh
August 20, 2012 at 3:39 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I don’t care so much about the re-labeling but I agree that some organized activism focusing on all the privilege and discrimination is much needed. Discrimination doesn’t happen in a bubble. If we can tackle it from all sides it may work. Sitting around postulating on how foolish the religious are because they believe without evidence is pointless ego stroking.
Rieux
August 20, 2012 at 4:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well, that’s an interesting parallel.
Have we got a sockpuppet on our hands? How dumb would someone have to be to create a sockpuppet for bigotry-trolling on their enemy’s own blog?
Or is one of these idiots (I guess it would be BreadGod who did the copy-and-pasting, being the second one to post that hateful dreck) just that lazy and uncreative?
Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the FreethoughtBlogs Star Chamber
August 20, 2012 at 4:32 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Er. One of the failings of liberal/neoclassical/monetarist/supply-side/trickle-down/Austrian/voodoo economics, and it’s a major failing, is that it ignores all forms of privilege.
NateHevens
August 20, 2012 at 4:38 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Just wanted to add to the crowd, here.
Amy, you’ve got guaranteed customers for some A+ Surlyramics.
sphex
August 20, 2012 at 7:05 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
+ 100 internets!
Alyson Miers
August 20, 2012 at 7:29 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I made another logo, this one to signify anti-racism, but the gradient wouldn’t do what I wanted and so this is kind of a compromise: http://alysonmiers.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=1863
If anyone can point me to some downloadable gradients that can be used in Pixelmator, I’d much appreciate it.
EdW
August 20, 2012 at 7:36 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Disabled is a perfectly good term, but personally, I don’t think it’s inclusive enough for what I was talking about — I have friends with varying degrees of Autism Spectrum, and I wouldn’t call them disabled — they have different needs and different strengths. Differently abled.
rowanvt
August 20, 2012 at 8:55 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
“Waaaaaaaah, I wanna be an asshole and say “racist” shit but I’m totally not racist, and wanna use ablist insults because those people *are* dumb and you’re a big meanie poopiehead for not letting me get away with being an asshole… WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!”
cyberCMDR
August 20, 2012 at 9:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Once we get the logo down, I’d like to see it on a bumper sticker. It’s low key, and only those who know about it will know what it means.
This is kinda important, as I remember once being with my daughter when she was getting her PhD awarded. She had a bumper sticker that said “Straight, but not narrow”. While she was driving us around the campus, someone came up from behind and rear-ended her car with a big truck. It had been coming up close, then slowing down repeatedly before the hit, so we were sure it was intentional. The truck then took off.
It isn’t safe in this culture to announce a position outside the herd mentality.
thomascaldwell
August 20, 2012 at 9:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
As they say in Britain, “big ups” for the business crowd. Not everyone in the business community is a right-wing jerk.
Neko
August 20, 2012 at 9:13 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m in :)
strange gods before me ॐ
August 20, 2012 at 9:35 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
So does what a lot of us were already doing — doing social justice as intrinsic to atheism and not as an “addition”.
I didn’t claim that it was. However, it is important to avoid easily avoidable rhetorical traps whenever possible.
I haven’t suggested that people shouldn’t create more spaces to work on social justice. I’ve actually said exactly the opposite. Making those spaces does not require adding a modifier to the word.
+++++
Your pessimism is unwarranted. Atheism used to mean what we now call strong atheism, the affirmative belief that there are no gods. The lack of belief in gods meaning is a new type. There can be yet another new type, such that atheism refers to the implications of a lack of gods.
That’s all I’m proposing.
Actually it’s hubris from you to claim that I’ve said anything of the sort.
I don’t know that everyone will become an atheist one day. But atheism is already associated with progressive values, and can become even further associated with such.
I didn’t claim that we did. You really have put a lot of words in my mouth. What is your problem with addressing what I’ve actually said instead of making up weird tangents?
It is important to avoid easily avoidable rhetorical traps whenever possible. In this case it is possible. This has nothing to do with a “perfect final end goal”, however you dreamed that up.
In fact I’ve said “Anyway, I don’t claim this will all be sufficient to succeed; these are just the methods I can think of at this time. There’s probably more.”
We already have many of those communities. FtB is one such. We already didn’t tolerate the noxious portion here.
We’ve already been doing that.
Sounds fantastic. Like I said above to Erista, “I’d advise you to «[Create a subgroup that tosses out the people in the larger group who are more than happy to do or defend misogynist things but welcomes in the people from the larger group who are defenders of women’s rights.'» (which we’ve been doing here at FtB since its founding and at Pharyngula before FtB) but without using a verbally pronounceable [adjective] atheism or atheism[modifier] form.
Yeah, by the way, I can’t stop people from calling themselves atheist+, so obviously it’s everybody’s prerogative. What I am doing is explaining why this is a rhetorical dead end.
I want more atheist communities focused on social justice, you know. I’ve been absolutely clear about that. I said from the very beginning, for instance: “Visual signals like the ones Jadehawk uses for feminism+atheism are excellent — they’ll do the work of signaling our presence to each other. With descriptive alt-text for screen readers.” We just shouldn’t use the symbols that are trivially pronounceable, like “ay plus”.
It’s remarkable how you keep arguing against things I haven’t said.
All this stuff can be done without taking on a pronouceable label that creates this rhetorical weakness.
«Stay on the blogs and other networks you like, promote the people you like, all that good stuff.
Visual identifiers that can’t be pronounced are not similarly vulnerable to the rhetorical weaknesses that [adjective] atheism or atheism[modifier] are. And, of course, associating with the people you like is not a rhetorical vulnerability.
My objection is all about the rhetoric, and the way it will disadvantage us in outreach, especially to the newly irreligious.
I love the possibility of having more blogs and other networks where we don’t have to interact with racists and misogynists, where we can plan for the world we want instead of constantly being on the defensive. Nothing I’ve said should be construed as saying that you personally have to engage with people who you find draining.»
Anonymous Atheist
August 20, 2012 at 10:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Reddit is the whole site. Subreddits are the topic subcategories within it that people create.
WhatPaleBlueDot
August 20, 2012 at 10:23 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I just got a new box of internets. Please take them.
thomascaldwell
August 20, 2012 at 10:24 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
It’s because (this comment can be inserted into many conversations) we live in a certain time and place in human history. We haven’t rebooted or pressed the reset button. We are part of a biased culture with a long past and are rapidly morphing into something else. The words that we have don’t adequately describe who we are so we have to invent new ways to describe what we are and what we want to be.
WhatPaleBlueDot
August 20, 2012 at 10:47 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I would like to offer an additional plus–when willful ignorance and psuedoscience and wishful thinking get packaged as healthcare specifically for suspect groups. It’s wrapped up in all the others listed above, but it so frequently gets dropped to the bottom of the heap. The traditional skeptical community gives up after antivax and homeopathy and chiro. And far too many in even the would-be A+ community toss out opposition to those when it comes to the oppressed. And yes, I’m specifically talking about essentialist garbage passed off as women’s reproductive care and childrearing, and the constant misrepresentation of evolution as resulting in ANYTHING optimal. But the phenomenon is not restricted to women’s health. It also includes ignoring the real effects of chronic stress (from the above listed social problems) on health and behavior that get passed off as personal failure, the persistent -isms that are found in health systems which compound the health problems faced by oppressed groups, AND the antiscience escapism that is the consistent response to these problems.
Pteryxx
August 21, 2012 at 12:12 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey, would you mind reposting and elaborating on this comment over on the “Time to walk the walk” thread? I want to hear more about skeptical approaches to healthcare inequities, since I mostly only know about the one facet of systemic dismissal of repetitive stress injuries, which overlaps with exploitation of poor and immigrant workers.
Pteryxx
August 21, 2012 at 12:18 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
…and, come to think of it, food safety and animal welfare. This discussion could get complicated FAST. *gleefully rubs talons*
FeministWhore
August 21, 2012 at 12:51 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hmm.
You don’t sound like you actually want to be educated, it seems like you have more fun making assumptions. Assumptions like libertarianism = Libertarian Party Member when it’s actually libertarianism as opposed to authoritarianism? Lower-case libertarians are some of the most active kick-ass-put-all-you-latecomers-to-shame social justicers I know. If so many of you are going to assume you know everything going in, why ask to be educated?
I am dissapoint.
FeministWhore
August 21, 2012 at 12:56 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey Pteryxx :) check out this link, might not seem like it at first – but if you read through, it touches quite a bit on the topic: http://kalamu.posterous.com/review-essay-anne-fausto-sterling-bodies-with
Wowbagger, Antipodean Dervish
August 21, 2012 at 1:04 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And yet that’s exactly what a very vocal contingent are demanding should be the case. They’re extremely unhappy that the FtBers and Skepchicks aren’t giving them what they want to hear: stories about how stupid/evil religious folks are so they can feel better about themselves for not believing in gods.
You’d think the obvious option would be that they’d turn instead to all the interesting, well-known, talented popular bloggers that just focus on those issues…
Pteryxx
August 21, 2012 at 1:28 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
(continuing this rather important derail)
WHAT THE F’ING F
…Thanks again FeministWhore, I’m passing this resource on ASAP. Holy shit…
Chris Hallquist
August 21, 2012 at 1:30 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hey! I’m a neoliberal!
Christoph Burschka
August 21, 2012 at 3:19 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Ax + c?
(Though you didn’t really specify what you’re integrating over.) [/math]
WhatPaleBlueDot
August 21, 2012 at 3:49 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I resposted. I had totally meant to post it there in the first place. But the elaboration became too elaborate, so I put that on my site so as not to clog up the comment thread with a novel.
Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle
August 21, 2012 at 6:20 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Agreed 100% After watching the Bigot Brigade turn the word “skeptic” into “misogynists who don’t believe in Bigfoot”, I’ve been withdrawing from the whole thing more and more. But now . . . . I’m willing to throw my “faith” into a positive change.
Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle
August 21, 2012 at 6:24 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Yes, dear, its all about YOU. Everything is about YOU. Social justice – all about YOU. Misogyny – all about YOU. Racism – all about YOU. Homophobia – all about YOU.
YOu YOU YOu YOu YOu.
And that’s what you fail.
Good riddance.
Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle
August 21, 2012 at 6:29 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
eleven billonty percent co-signed.
Killerrat
August 21, 2012 at 6:36 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Here is a suggestion for your new uniform.
http://killerrats.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/a-uniform.jpg
Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle
August 21, 2012 at 7:06 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
In case anyone needs reminding just how much of a failure that breadgod bigot troll is, just read these. The cream rises to the top, the whiny ass bigots sink into irrelevance
Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle
August 21, 2012 at 7:15 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Here we see the Whiny Ass Bigot Troll outside his natural habitat. Notice how quickly his true character comes to light. A scared, incompetent creature, he cowers with impotent rage at the people smart enough to have cast off his childish fairy tales and superstitions. The Whiny Ass Bigot Troll depends on Bigot Atheism. It is the one thing in his lonely, useless little existence that lets him pretend to be a big, important man. Bigot Atheism requires people to step on, people to silence, people to mock, people to ignore, people to insult and be protected from criticism in response. Bigot Atheism is cowardice, dressed up in empty bravado. The Whiny Ass Bigot Troll knows this and therefore pisses his pants in fear of being left behind when all those people finally stand up and walk away.
Bubbye, whiny ass bigot troll. We’ll forget you exist in moments.
sc_94fcac0d7c66800c216855e86b6758f9
August 21, 2012 at 7:42 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Huh. This describes me perfectly. Prior to the past year I’d sort of figured that being atheist was sufficient to assume that most if not all of the people who so identified would at least not be hostile to the ‘plus’ issues. What a difference a year makes.
My local skeptics group is I think more progressive than what I’ve seen going on online, which is the only thing that kept my spirits up in this arena in an otherwise depressing time for the whole movement.
Thank you for your strength in facing the adversity lately, not just you but the skepchicks and all the other women who have done so.
daenyx
August 21, 2012 at 8:35 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is an atheist movement I can identify with. I’m in!
celticwulf
August 21, 2012 at 9:38 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Still trying to catch up on all the blogs, but have to delurk a bit for another “I’m in”
Buzz Parsec
August 21, 2012 at 10:13 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Do we still have to not collect stamps? If so, I’m in.
aiabx
August 21, 2012 at 10:18 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m with you.
I’m not going to get on board on all the economic or animal rights issues that some would like to see, but I’m not going to sit aside because the movement might not meet my exacting standards of purity. Let’s start with respect for all and we can quibble about the other stuff later.
SnowyBiscuit
August 21, 2012 at 10:19 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I like the rhinestones even better! (And I worked for Blue Cross for several years, so any blue cross thingie gives me a panic attack…)
Emily
August 21, 2012 at 10:23 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’ve written a new post, addressing ‘atheism plus’ & the wonderful growing pains the ‘atheist movement’ is going through: http://emilyhasbooks.com/growing-pains-labels/
Edward
August 21, 2012 at 12:50 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Thank you for the incite, i landed in the middle of the bashing/help people phase of this. slowly but surly i have changed more to this stand-point. I hope your point gets across and people start realizing what you mean.
merovader
August 21, 2012 at 12:58 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Personally I have never really liked the old A logo. Call me boring but I really like sans serifs.
Im more for something simple, maybe this? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9260409/a%2B.png
and that can be used in many different ways https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9260409/a%2B_2.png
(even if it may be a bit too corporate looking)
Danarra
August 21, 2012 at 1:49 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m in
Sam Barnett-Cormack
August 21, 2012 at 1:51 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Autism spectrum (mostly at the higher-functioning end) is one of very few categories that that argument applies to. If the social model definition of disability is accepted, it’s no judgement of a person, no statement about them at all, to say they are disabled – it’s a way of saying that society disadvantages them. This is certainly true of autism spectrum. However, I do know that the autism spectrum community in the US are very resistant to the use of ‘disabled’.
In the UK on the other hand, the disabled community in general finds the term ‘differently abled’ grating for a number of reasons. One of them could be fixed by fixing the grammar though ;) – ‘differently able’ would still make sense.
ralfmuschall
August 21, 2012 at 3:42 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
When making new logos, we shouldn’t forget what Gnu Atheism is – i.e. the logo needs horns.
I just made this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yf_YMIG0V-c/UDQLCAJN9wI/AAAAAAAAC68/bdrhDMfuDis/s350/gnuap.png
It is based on the old http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/3537/gnuatheist.png, which was a direct result of the discussion on Butterflies and Wheels on 2010-06-26: http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2010/some-solid-information-at-last/#comment-56029
asip
August 21, 2012 at 4:38 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hug!
Kurt
August 21, 2012 at 5:20 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Is there room in the “social justice” heading to fight against religious influence in our political and educational systems? Our kids deserve a quality education. Being well-educated is key for success. Yet religious groups continue to encroach upon the science class with creationist nonsense. Is this part of A+?
Danni
August 21, 2012 at 7:02 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I just took a break from the atheist community after Natalies All In post (thunderfoots immaturity was one of the last straws for wanting anything to do with many new atheists given). But I am really glad that I checked back in at freethoughtblogs. I love this idea. I really feel like its an atheist movement that I would proudly support publicly and its making me think about bringing it to my local atheist group to see where they stand on these issues. Breaks over :)))
Sara
August 21, 2012 at 7:41 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m not sure about A+. It almost looks like it could stand for AIDS positive. Jus sayin!
Heidi aka Digital Misfit
August 21, 2012 at 9:48 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
An awesome concept for a new community!
I think I need to embroider that logo!
chanson
August 21, 2012 at 11:22 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Very cool!! Here’s my post about the A+ movement.
Maaretta
August 22, 2012 at 2:14 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hi,
totally on board with the idea and concept of Atheism+! Love it!
For five years I’ve been fascinated by the atheist movement. The one thing that has always bothered me is how much it’s dominated by white men. I agree with this and the other post you link to, it’s time for some improvements! Like any group of people,
Personally, I think feminist and the new atheist (one of the more recent new movements in atheism) could make great allies if some of the new atheist men would just realize that at heart they too are feminist and want women to be equal (as well as realize that the sexism they sometimes show is actually them still clinging to a form of religion!).
Best wishes, Maaretta
hepsergalgogrrl
August 22, 2012 at 6:31 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
totally agree. in a way, atheism has never waned – it has always been there. even though some humanists in olden days or modern times believe(d) in a god, in its essence humanism is much more like atheism. it’s like religion light ;) – trying to get some common sense into religion.
shealaroux
August 22, 2012 at 4:13 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Just don’t know if this is necessary. Hmmm
Emptyell
August 22, 2012 at 4:19 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
AA,
Thanks for the recommendations. I put my A+ logos on Image Shack here:
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5236/apluslogos1.png
They are just a dozen quick pen sketch outlines. I could think of lots more but there’s that making a living thing
If anyone likes any of them feel free to use or adapt them at will. I’d also be happy to tidy them up and tweak the curves for better typographic quality.
Shane
August 22, 2012 at 7:14 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
your not changing anything. a vast majority of atheists already have some form of values like this. atheists are more common to be in favor of equal rights for all. i’m not sure where your hanging around or who your talking to but the majority atheist i meet are very positive, even the one’s who have problems with theists. as for it being a “boys club” maybe your just not looking hard enough because i meet a lot of girls who are atheists. yes there are more atheist guys then girls but it’s not by some huge margin look for the big groups on facebook.
Jennifer, Uppity Bitch and General Malcontent
August 22, 2012 at 7:46 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This isn’t about how many atheists are minorities. This is about the atmosphere they encounter once they enter the atheist community, which is generally very minority-unfriendly.
Fizzygoo
August 22, 2012 at 9:11 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Exactly, Jennifer. This is a direct response to those very atheists who have revealed their bigoted and misogynist mindset. It says; these atheists, these A+, they want equality, they see the problems within the community, whether as people who have been subjected to these horrible attacks or as people who acknowledge their privilege and see the problems, and they want to fix it at best and provide a safe space at minimum, they are united under these ideals and though they may argue how best to attain them they know the end result, safe, respectful, equality and social justice through critical thinking and skepticism is the goal.
Emptyell
August 22, 2012 at 11:56 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I admit it’s a bit tongue in cheek but there is some serious thought behind it. I have sympathies for both libertarian and socialist points of view and don’t see Smith’s and Marx’s theories as incompatible, though I realize my views may be a bit naive as I haven’t so much time to devote to economics and philosophy as I did in my youth.
Seth
August 23, 2012 at 4:43 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
One abbreviation for A+ might be Ape. Has a humorous parallel w/ Humanist, plus the platform of A+ apes Humanism. So it works all around.
Jason Loxton
August 23, 2012 at 8:47 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Why not just use the label that already exists, ‘Secular Humanism’, and take advantage of the several generations worth of literture and human and physical infrstructure (the Centers for Inquiry, Prometheus Publishing, and Free Inquiry, Humanist in Canada, American Humanist, etc., magazines) that promote exactly the idea you suggest?
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Human Being
August 23, 2012 at 8:55 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’m not a “girl,” you semiliterate dipshit.
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Human Being
August 23, 2012 at 9:18 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
… the way xtians stole everything from extant cultures, like “Christmas” trees, eggs and bunnies for Easter, shrines to local deities, Samhaim, etc. etc.?
Ant Allan
August 23, 2012 at 9:32 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Well, this has been mentioned several times already. And earlier, I’ve said myself that the values PZ ascribed to a “good” gnu atheist were largely congruent with humanist values; eg, as set out on the BHA website.
I don’t remember if it was in Jen’s original post, or Ophelia’s on FtB or Facebook, but it’s a matter of emphasis in self-identification. A+ is for all of us who previously self-identified as atheists, and want to maintain continuity with that, which self-identifying as (secular) humanists wouldn’t …
I think also that those who self-identify as A+ tend to be somewhat more openly, frankly, forthrightly critical of religion than humanists are. (But maybe that’s a misconception.)
I’ve previously self-identified as a humanist rather than an atheist (which really only states a very simple conclusion based on other values: I believe in no gods), but A+ adds value(s) to this & I’m now happy to add #A+ to my Twitter profile, for example.
/@
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Human Being
August 23, 2012 at 9:37 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Shitsville is an awful blog. Thanks for warning me that Flyover Feminism is a spin-off thereof, so I know to avoid it.
Ant Allan
August 23, 2012 at 9:45 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
And, of course, Jen answers this very question in her next post!
:-o
/@
Trassin
August 23, 2012 at 10:06 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Jesus agrees: https://plus.google.com/107308540658459968960/posts/JkGWPoFr1Cg
Scott Cunningham
August 23, 2012 at 11:28 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I love this idea. It’s been a long time overdue. And thanks!
Charles
August 23, 2012 at 11:35 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Is there any risk of pushback from Google over Google+? I mean, I know they are probably less anal about their trademarks than Apple is about their i-whatevers, but it may be something to think about.
Thaddeus Aid
August 23, 2012 at 1:08 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is a fantastic idea! I think this is just what I was trying to think of myself. I have been talking about how we need something more than our lack of belief in gods to bind us together and our positive beliefs in progressive liberal goodness is what I want that something to be. You rock!!
Conor
August 23, 2012 at 1:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Hi Jen,
I’m an agnostic, and I’ve been one for my whole life. (Wikipedia tells me that I’m specifically a “strong agnostic,” which is flattering.) I have never been part of The Movement, because it’s never occurred to me that it’d help, because it seems like enough to support the causes I support without wearing a big badge saying “I am an atheist who donates to charity.” But I’d like to join your movement. Because I’m not okay with people defining the atheist image as a bunch of over-privileged douchebros.
Where do I sign? Are there meetings? Are there dues? My time is your time and my checkbook is open.
-Conor
Boston, MA
Emily
August 23, 2012 at 2:00 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I’ve updated my thoughts on A+
917 words later, my conclusion is here:
http://emilyhasbooks.com/growing-pains-labels/ See update after the image break, or read the whole page if you haven’t already. Comments welcome.
Matías Guzmán
August 23, 2012 at 2:46 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
This is fucking retarded.
AJ Milne
August 23, 2012 at 9:04 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I keep writing and rewriting my statement on this whole thing. Have been since I don’t know how many months, honestly. Feel like I really need to make one. Feel like I want to make one a little more omnibus and worked out than I have in the bits and pieces I’ve dropped in threads so far. But I need to get it right, y’know?
And right now I’m travelling, with kids. And should be sleeping, and should have been hours ago. And, dammit, Greta’s put it all so incredibly well already anyway…
So I’m just putting the A+ up in my sidebar, linked here. Added next to the Out A, and the Gnu A. And I guess that’s going to have to do, for now.
And that’s how it is, anyway. I’m all of those things. And I think all of those things are worth promoting.
But y’know the maybe sorta sad thing? I’m not even particularly surprised with Dr. D’s reaction, anymore. I guess I don’t much expect better.
What can ya do. The old dog is going to get it through his apparently occasionally thick head and learn this new trick or not, but the Out thing was still a good idea, sure, so I guess I’ll still point to it.
But so is this. It really is. Well done.
andy
August 24, 2012 at 5:30 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I don’t understand the idea that you can be a minority when there’s more of you than anyone else. It seems to be say that you can be a majority of one. What does a phrase like “majority vote” or “the majority of women” mean then? I think the usage of “minority” you describe sounds exclusively a US one. The equivalent term in the UK is “ethnic minority” – women are not considered to be in the minority, because, well, they aren’t.
Eric
August 24, 2012 at 8:17 AM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Agreed. As I was reading this I was thinking “Yes, this sounds great… and familiar.” This is exactly how I describe ‘humanism’. But I do think the ‘A+’ brings something extra to the party.
Brian
August 24, 2012 at 12:43 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I apologize and don’t mean to sound harsh,
but tell me exactly how is Atheism+ different than Secular Humanism?
Brian
August 24, 2012 at 12:44 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
I apologize and don’t mean to sound harsh,
Can someone explain to me exactly how is Atheism+ different than Secular Humanism? So far, I see no reason to come up with something new when “Secular Humanism” covers all of the positions just as well.
adamgordon
August 24, 2012 at 1:10 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
Read this.
Killerrat
August 24, 2012 at 1:32 PM (UTC -7) Link to this comment
A+ = Secular Humanism + Radical Feminism + Political Correctness Bullying.