In an earlier post, I casually wrote that Donald Trump is a “notorious welsher on debts”, meaning that he feels free to not pay what he owes. It is not a word that I commonly use but am familiar enough with that it came naturally to me when I wanted to describe Trump’s practice of defaulting on his debt obligations.
That is the common meaning of the phrase ‘to welsh’. But later it got me thinking. ‘Welsh’ also refers to the people of Wales, a distinct nationality with their own language that makes up part of the United Kingdom. Was using the term ‘welsh’ the way I did a slur on them, implying that they as a people were prone to this type of dishonesty?
I decided to look up the term and found that although its origins are murky, it is likely a pejorative term coined by the English who are notorious for their imaginative ways of derogatorily referring to people of other nationalities.
Oxford English Dictionary
The OED says of the verb welsh or welch:
Origin uncertain; perhaps < Welsh adj., on account of alleged dishonesty of Welsh people (see note). Earlier currency is probably implied by welsher n.1, welshing n., and welshing adj.
Sometimes considered offensive in view of the conjectured connection with Welsh people.
…
BBC
But it is still used, often by politicians, including the BBC itself. Occasionally they apologise. The BBC reported in February 2012 that Education secretary Michael Gove apologised for saying he’d “welshed on the deal” in the House of Commons, and ‘Bill Clinton apologised to Republicans in 1995 for calling them “Welshers”‘.
So I went back and changed the word to ‘renege’.
I find it is a good habit to avoid using any word that could be considered a slur, even if it is not definitively shown to be so.
A long time ago I read of someone using the phrase “welshed on the deal” and a reader named Malcolm wrote in to protest. The writer then stated that he was sorry, and from then on, he would say “Malcolmed on the deal” instead. But… yeah. I applaud you for changing it. We have a lot of inherent crap in our language and it hurts no one to change it… or to become aware of it.
I have never in my life seen it spelled or heard it pronounced “welsh”. Every single time I’ve encountered it, it’s been spelled and pronounced as ending in “ch” -- “welch”. On that basis, I question the dodgy etymology. In context I can’t see how it could be considered derogatory as much as simply the wrong word.
Analogy: is the word “niggerly” derogatory? As in, “he was a notoriously niggerly person”, meaning he was mean. Obviously not. The word being meant here is clearly “niggardly”, and whoever formulated the sentence has substituted a malapropism with unfortunate implications. It’s just wrong.
All that said, I’m all for simply avoiding the pointless debate and saying “reneged” or “mean” and not giving some offence-tourist the opportunity.
sonofrojblake @2: ‘welch’ is an archaic spelling of ‘welsh’. As in Royal Welch Fusiliers.
The history of the term is murky. Another proposed etymology is that it arises from 19th Century English oppression of the Welsh, but from the Welsh side. Essentially the English authorities forced Welsh schoolchildren to speak only English in school, not their native Welsh language. They relied on other schoolchildren to rat out the ones who were speaking Welsh to the authorities, or to “Welsh” on them as the phrase goes. So the original meaning would have been not merely to renege on an agreement, but to turn traitor on your own kind by siding with an oppressive outside force.
I’m not sure how much evidence there is for this, but it’s certainly the reason I learned in school (and that my Welsh peers did too).
Yes, “niggerly” is offensive. And that should be obvious because of what composes it. The work you might be thinking of is “niggardly”, which means “stingy”. It (probably) comes from the Norse word “hniggw”, also meaning stingy.
Right outcome, wrong reasoning. I cause offense all the time, but I try to make sure that I cause offense only when I mean to. If you’re not in need of a catharsis (such as when you find yourself unable NOT to swear at the murder of Cornelius Frederick) and you’re not deliberately punching up (Hello, Mr. Trump!) and it isn’t a situation where your existence or mere truth, however politely phrased, is predicate to the offense, you’re better or not giving offense.
And even when intentionally (or knowingly) giving offense by, say, calling Trump an incompetent authoritarian, if you’re after Trump because you’re trying to create a better world, why use verbal grenades that injure many when you can use a verbal sniper rifle to place the damage exactly where you intend and where (presumably) it is deserved?
In my experience, offense tourism is so rare as to not be a thing. On the other hand, there are people who want a world where people don’t punch down or use language that can hurt others accidentally. Some of them may be overzealous in their stridency and overconfident in their own purity, and others may be entirely misguided, and sometimes they can take on the role of Lorax, speaking for another group in a way that minimizes the actual opinions of the people who actually make up that group.
Those are all potential problems. They are not offense tourism.
Interesting that “Indian giver” is actually a criticism of white people, not Native Americans, though the use of the term is discouraged because the reverse is assumed.
I’ve heard Welsh pronounced with -sh and -ch. It’s also my last name. I’ve been aware of the Welsh/Welsher slur for a long time.
I’m glad it’s mostly archaic, and not used often. Good to not use it, unless you’d also use derogatory terms for other nationalities.
Interesting fact: The word Welsh isn’t a Welsh word, but likely came from Saxon by way of Latin, and meant ‘foreigner’.
Interesting fact #2: ‘Penguin’ is from Welsh.
@achuah, 5:
You say:
I said:
So, er… yeah. Did you just read the first sentence of the second paragraph and immediately start typing?
@Crip Dyke, 6:
Bod forbid anyone should do the right thing for the wrong reason. Thank goodness for the Thought Police.
Don’t diss the Lorax! The Lorax speaks for a group that by definition cannot speak for itself. The kind of people you’re talking about, piping up “on behalf of” others who are perfectly capable of articulating their own opinions, they’re pretty different. If you don’t want to call that offence tourism, well, OK.
sonofrojblake, @8.
Oddly enough, going back to recheck, I recall reading the first paragraph, the beginning of the second paragraph (but not the relevant sentence you are pointing out), and all of the third paragraph. I don’t know how I missed that.
Sorry about that.
I don’t think I was ever awares of, nor has it (ever?) occurred to me, that welsh (in the “on a debit” sense) could be derogatory — albeit that might be because I always spell in welch and my pronunciation of it does not sound like Welsh. (I think that means I pronounce it with a hard c rather than a soft s, but my understanding of pronunciation is notoriously wacky.)
@#1:
I remember that, too! That was Cecil Adams of the Straight Dope.
From Willard R. Espy’s quite enjoyable book, Oh Thou Improper, Thou Uncommon Noun, pp197-198:
Other words Espy lists as derogatory denoting a specific place, ethnicity, or country of origin include: bohunk (an unskilled laborer from Austro-Hungary), dago (a person of Mediterranean origin from Diego), mosey (to walk slowly, comes from a perceived slouching style of walk used by Jewish people, from Moses), boor (a pejorative term for the Boers of South Africa), and slave (a derogatory term for the Slavic people of Eastern Europe who were often forced into peonage).
Espy also lists the following words/phrases as denoting a population, but not necessary as derogatory: Tommy Atkins (WWI British Soldier), Brother Johnathan (American Citizen), John Bull (generic Englishman, this has changed a bit over the years. The last I heard it referred only to overly patriotic Tory’s.), Marianne (republican Frenchman, as opposed to royalist), Fritz or Jerry (German descent from common proper names), Ivan (Russian), and Georgie (NE England, and I have never heard of this one outside of Espy, but I’m not English). An Irish Kiss is a slap, and a Paddy Wagon refers to the policeman (often Irishmen in big American cities) not the brawlers who would occupy it. Paddy being a nickname for the Irish from a nickname of their patron saint, St. Patrick.
With less authority (and quoting Brewer), Espy passes on the story that the term “Black Maria” for police car commemorates a Black boarding house owner Maria Lee, who was of such a gigantic stature that when the police needed help with a boisterous crowd the would call on “Black Maria” to help.
I don’t trust Espy entirely, and there are plenty of unintentional sexist and racist statements so it needs to be read with the understanding that Espy was 68 years old when it was published in 1978, so a little forgiveness may be required. It’s not any worse than other books, but on occasion you read something which makes you read it again a little more carefully to be certain Espy used a phrase or term which wouldn’t be used today. It is an entertaining read.
ObNote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy
Odd, the third paragraph is also a quote, but it didn’t show up that way…
[You had ‘/blockquote’ at the beginning of the second quote instead of a ‘blockquote’. I corrected it. -- Mano]
OP:
Well, hopefully you don’t have any acquaintances named ‘Karen”, or indeed any of the other names enumerated in your recent ‘bestiary’ post — they most certainly can now be considered slurs. Though I suppose you can always use pronouns only to refer to them…
flex@14, “slave (a derogatory term for the Slavic people of Eastern Europe who were often forced into peonage).”
My understanding (this is entirely from memory) is that is backwards, Slavic is derived from slave. The Online Etymology Dictionary seems to confirm with the correction it’s Slav which is derived from slave, with Slavic itself then derived from Slav:
However:
And Slavic is apparently quite recent:
That doesn’t rule out slave then, later, being using as a “derogatory term for Slavic”; but as you say, Espy needs to be treated with some caution.
The etymology of Slav is unknown, but slave is the secondary sense.
I get fed up with the mis-use of Vandal.
And, of course, there’s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_people.
English is littered with words that come from ethnic groups, with varying degrees of perceived offensiveness: Bohemian, barbarian, cannibal, gyp. It’s hard to avoid words with ethnic origins, honestly.
I don’t exactly know what “offense tourism” is, but if it means people desperately looking for something to be offended by, I think I’ve seen exactly ONE example in my 50 years.
I was a moderator on a forum, and ended up managing a dispute between two individuals after a trade between them had gone bad. In making his complaint, person A referred to person B as having tried to “jip” him. Person B claimed to be Romani and that person A had deliberately used a ethnic slur to attack him and demanded that A be banned from the forum on account of it.
“Gyp”, meaning to steal from or to con someone, derives from “Gypsy”, which in turn derives from “Egyptian” due to some very weird racist ideas in old Europe. “Gypsy” and “gyp” are regarded as pejoratives by Romani, and it’s certainly their right to decide how they should be referred to. My position on the matter was that there was A) no clear way person A could have known B was Romani, and that B) the spelling of “gyp” as “jip” clearly suggested that A was not aware of its racist origins and wasn’t using it as a slur. Certainly, we (the moderators) said firmly that “gyp” was racist language and should not be used, but didn’t punish A because it’s highly likely he had no idea it was such. Person A was told not to use it again, but no other action was needed.
To say Person B was not satisfied with this ruling would be putting it mildly. *sigh*
Flex, the name for a person from the northeast of England is Geordie, not Georgie. The Geordies I know are proud to be so called.
“I find it is a good habit to avoid using any word that could be considered a slur”
Being Dutch I promise to be not insulted when you use expressions like Dutch courage, Dutch generosity, Dutch gold and Dutch talent. We Dutch understand that the English are jealous of our insulting skills.
https://hetnieuwevloeken.nl/
Let me translate one: “retarded gladiolus”.
Dutch oven?
@flex, 14: “An Irish Kiss is a slap”
Interesting. A Glasgow kiss is a headbutt.
@25 and a Glasgow Smile is from having a glass shoved in your face so hard it opens/scars the cheeks up to the ears.
Jazzlet @22: Not sure Mackems (Wearside) or Smoggies (Teesside) would appreciate being lumped in with Tynesiders.
@suttkus, 21:
“I don’t exactly know what “offense tourism” is, but if it means people desperately looking for something to be offended by, I think I’ve seen exactly ONE example in my 50 years”
So… Never heard of Mary Whitehouse, who literally got famous for what is characterise as offence tourism?
Or Beverley “unspeakably sick” Hughes, former home office minister?
Or the 63,000 people who complained to the BBC about the broadcast of Jerry Springer the Opera… before the broadcast went out?
You can Google these things. Making out this sort of thing isn’t a thing just makes one appear, at best, uninformed.