It used to be that the big political conventions were NOT PR sessions in which the Chosen One was anointed — the convention was where it was decided who would represent the party. There was back-room wheeling and dealing, the party leaders would negotiate and make promises, it was an ugly opportunity for corruption, and it might completely disregard the will of the people settled in primaries and caucuses.
I think we need to bring that kind of convention back.
In the debate last night, Joe Biden demonstrated that he’s not fit to run the country. Trump is worse, but pitting a doddering old man against a lying sleaze monster is no way to decide how to run a country. Both sides of that “debate” were disgracefully bad and an embarrassment to the USA. In August, the Democratic National Convention will meet in August, and it’s expected to be a rubber stamp event. “Democrats will rally around Joe Biden and Kamala Harris’ nomination for President and Vice President of the United States,” says the DNC…but what if they don’t? What if all the representatives from around the country get together with their mandate to present policies favored by the people and then choose the best person to stand for office? That’s not an unusual way for political systems to work.
I’m with Jon Stewart on the debate. I watched it with an increasingly appalled feeling, and was angry by the end of it. Neither of those men should have any power. Trump needs to be in prison, while Biden needs to retire to a rocking chair on his porch.
I’m also pissed off by the incompetence Biden demonstrated after the debate.
Asked by a reporter how he thought he did during Thursday’s night debate during a post-game stop at a Waffle House in Atlanta, President Joe Biden said, “I thought we did well.”
No, Joe. You did very, very poorly.
I agree with Mehdi Hasan: Joe Biden has to go. We need a brokered convention in August.
You know, another bonus to doing that is that it would kill these long drawn-out ridiculous horse races that start a few years before the election. Make the final selection in August, and the campaign season begins then and ends in November.
Well, by all means if you want to hand Trump the presidency that bad, convince the dems to look weak, indecisive, panicky and cowardly just before the election. Whoever the dems could nominate would never be seen as more than the candidate of embarassment and never have any chance from the beginning, regardless of who it is.
Let the liberal dogpile on PZ begin.
You mean after the defeatists, horseshoe leftits, tankies and other assorted useful idiots for the right are done dogpiling on Biden?
Are you suggesting that the Democrats have no better candidate than that walking corpse we saw on stage last night?
They have none with a shot at winning. They could nominate Clark Kent or Mr Rogers and either would come out the loser.
It doesn’t matter who they nominate. That guy or gal will be seen as sloppy leftovers, the spare, second-best to an old geezer and the candidate nominated by embarassment. Plus the democratic party will look like panicky headless chicken who are too eager to backstab their candidate just because they heard some bad words flung their way online.
You don’t win elections by looking weak and cowardly.
@ 3
Boo hoo hoo.
Grow up, Akira.
Fuck off Augustus,
So, which Democrats have a chance to replace Biden and win in the November election?
Barrack Obama? He was a good president but two terms is enough.
Kamala Harris the VP? She has been all but invisible these last 3 1/2 years and
doesn’t seem to have connected to the voters.
Gavin Newson the governor of California? Maybe. He at least has some name recognition.
Hillary Clinton?
Who else? I’ve already run out of names that have positive national recognition.
I like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez but a member of the Democratic Socialists of America isn’t going to be electable.
If you want to blame someone for something, blame the Democratic leadership, or whatever passes for it, for not having a farm system or back bench or career development pathway.
They should be picking out a variety of younger and up and coming stars and training them for future leadership and higher elective offices.
Here it is 2024 and there isn’t much of a backup to Biden. Who even ran against him in the primaries?
And yet, in 2016, Trump got elected, despite me seeing him as weak and cowardly.
Care to unpack that? I’m seeing what look like some bizarre assumptions. And isn’t that exactly the DNC defeatist mindset people like me are complaining about?
Honestly, if Joe Biden revealed that the whole second term thing was fake, and stepped aside for another candidate, and this was all a tactical decision to ensure that the Republicans set up nothing but arguments about Biden’s age and then had to face a new candidate, I would kind of respect that. Not sure who it would be, though. Michelle Obama?
Yes there are.
Clark Kent was born Krypton in the city of Kryptonopolis .
Since he isn’t a natural born US citizen, he isn’t eligible to run for president.
As far as US authorities are concerned, Clark Kent was born in Smallville, Kansas, to Jonathan and Martha Kent, so he’s fully eligible.
He would still lose of course because he’d have to carry the bagagge of being sloppy seconds to an old doddering fool and the dems would look like cowardly backstabbing idiots that panic over a few bad words hurled at them from the mediasphere. Even Superman couldn’t shoulder that. Human foolishness was always as big a weakness to him as kryptonite and magic.
The best argument so far against a brokered convention is that it takes place after Ohio’s deadline to put a name on the ballot. We can’t just surrender Ohio.
If you think that this is the most important election of our life time, if you think elections are how we stop fascism (ha!), if you think nothing else matters than defeating Trump, then why in the ever-loving hell would you accept what the Democratic party has been doing this election? It is beyond laughable how much the DNC either (a) thinks this one is a gimme and doesn’t have to do anything to earn anyone’s vote or (b) is self-sabotaging because their donors (who are the same corporations and billionaires that donate to Republicans) prefer the Republicans to have power.
I swear to Christ, man, I wish liberals fought conservatives with half the vigor as liberals fight progressives.
You seem to think everyone has the same perceptions and emotional responses to stimuli.
I just know I’m forced to vote for a party that insists on beating me until morale improves.
The biggest lie the horseshoe left has told itself is that they’re “progressives”.
No, you are not. You are useful idiots and never have been anything else.You think your shit doesn’t stink and that purity is the most important value of all. That making it clear that your support is close to impossible to obtain and lost at a whim somehow will encourage political leaders to adapt to your impossibly high standards instead of just writing you off as being politically irrelevant. Get that, someone who’s primarily looking for excuses to not vote will never get catered to ever.
You have taken this rejection so badly that you childishly try to spoil everything and put fascist leaders in power, that’ll show ’em! They’ll come crawling back to you after a few decades of deathcamps and tyranny! Not that you think you will ever suffer from it, nah, being the egg that has to be smashed for the leftist paradise omelette will be everyone else’s duty, not yours.
Grow the fuck up.
He stuttered and spoke low. Trump spoke loud and lied. Hmm. Read the NYT a lot.
Interesting watching :
Planet America post-debate analysis and interveiews here Stephen youtube video 45 mins long.
Intresting reading from Jim Wright’s Stonekettle station blog :
https://www.stonekettle.com/2024/06/galloping-bullshit.html
Plus list of possible repalcements here -scroll down :
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-28/democrats-question-biden-candidacy-presidential-debate/104036928
It’s a convenient mythology Augustus spews here. The truth is hiding behind the voters these moderate types really fight for. People like them. The so-called middle, the independents, the ones they know flip regularly while the left reliably votes for Democrats. They know whose support is flighty and who they can write off. And they write off the left. The rest is projection.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/07/12/voting-patterns-in-the-2022-elections/
Dóh! Broke the italics. Phew, Links still work. Sigh, sorry folks.
From last link in my # 20 (already!) :
Then there’s suggestions I’ve heard somewhere -can’t recllwhere that Michelle Obama could become the Democratic nominee if Biden can be persuaded to step down. Still a pretty big IF.
The only places I’ve heard anything about Michelle Obama being the nominee if Biden bows out is from the mouths of conspiracy theorists. She has never shown even an inkling that she wants to be part of the presidential election shitshow.
My suggested very badly needed political reforms for the USA in addition to abolition of the Electoral College and either preferential voting (a la Oz) or run-off voting ( g’day France) include maximum age limits tomatch the minimum ones alreayd inpalce – say no older than 70 years maximum to be able to run for any Congressional or Presidential office. Plus abolition of term limits or modificationof it to three since Obama – Barack that is – would have very likely easily won a third term and governed reasonably well with that.
Oh and also have a qualifying test of basic science, critical thinking, logic & ethics that must be passed before anyone there can run for any office above dog-catcher too. Maybe a minimum EQ level too? Plus prevous political office experience before allowing any presidential run.
Americans, for fucks sake, for your own sake, please update and improve your crappy old political system that has resulted in failures like, well, the two truly horrid candidates vying for office of POTUS this year among so much more. Your system is broken, it isn’t working. That needs remedying. I know its hard to get reform tho’ but.. Needs to happen for all our sakes. Planet~wide.
Hypothetically alternate cosmos~wise, might’ve been better had HRC won in 2008 over Obama and become POTUS then followed by Obama as POTUS rather than what we had in our very messed upcurrent reality. Moot as fuck that tho’..
Sanders is just as old. Slightly more spry and energetic.
Pritzker is polarizing (I’m an IL resident. Downstate would melt down if he ran)
I could get behind Warren
I could get behind Buttigieg, but there’s no way America elects a gay president.
I don’t know enough about the others mentioned above to lean one way or the other. Other than the fact that I’ll get behind whoever isn’t Trump. That’s the shitty place we are. I’m not sure you could put Jesus Christ on the Democratic ticket and still get the evangelical vote.
PZ, all that dumping Biden will do is lead to endless ads with the theme “See, even the Democrats know Sleepy Joe ruined America. Only America’s Greatest President can fix America!” Panicking because of one debate is not a good idea.
You all want to blame individual voters for this mess but never seem to support tearing down this awful system built on genocide and slavery and that functions based on violence if authority is not adhered to. Anytime I hear someone say “if you don’t support voting for Biden, enjoy the death camps!” it doesn’t come across that they actually care about marginalized people, but rather are threatening them, that they’d rather accept fascism by vote than take the necessary actions to fight it. I voted for the lesser of two evils the last decade, will probably still end up voting for Biden again, but I understand completely why some people might not be voting for him again and I frankly don’t blame them. This shit is beyond traumatizing for the other trans people I know, who are upset at the Democrats insistence on following the law no matter if it leads to our deaths rather than calling for civil disobedience, material support for Israel’s genocide against Palestinians, just abject spinelessness all around. If the 13th amendment were repealed the Dem leadership would probably insist that people vote while encouraging “civility”. Civility just maintains the status quo.
If you aren’t going to arm up to try to protect those being sent to death camps, encourage resistance against fascism in any meaningful way other than voting, insist these systems of oppression be dismantled, stop yelling at marginalized people that if they don’t do what they’re told it’s their fault if less marginalized people start falling in the grinders, then I honestly don’t see much a difference between you and the fascists.
There’s a good reason so many queer and trans people are anarchists, and it’s because we are constantly talked down to and threatened by everyone else around us that if we don’t play the game right, then we’re gonna die and nobody is going to do anything about it and we have only ourselves to blame. Some people might come up with “rules” to make it more fair that usually never get implemented by the people in control of the board, but what I and so many others want is a wholesale refusal to accept the terms at all.
Hex, if those “individual voters” make it their purpose in life to attack the center and support the right, I can throw as much blame on them as I want because they deserved it.
You are so eager to shovel your own grave that you curse those who told you to stop it instead of the people who would like to see you dead in the first place.
If there’s never going to be a point in which one will advocate for revolution in this country and dismantling of authoritarian and capitalist structures the world over, that means people like me will always be considered expendable for “the greater good”, and will always be subject to severe trauma and suffering. If you think it isn’t possible, then at least be consistent and advocate for people to stop being brought into this world in the first place. It comes off to me otherwise that most people seem to think that it’s ok that some people are forced into into horrific circumstances and oppression as long as enough people don’t have to experience it, like you can “add up” enough happiness points and it becomes ok. Speaking as someone who has suffered sexual and emotional abuse her entire life for being queer and trans and whose family is under constant threat of genocide, fuck that shit.
“You are so eager to shovel your own grave that you curse those who told you to stop it instead of the people who would like to see you dead in the first place.”
Way to prove my point. For the matter, I curse both of you. Fuck you, I hope you die, you useless asshole.
You are absolutely no different than the assholes who tell people like me its best if I force myself in the closet
There’s a word for people who tell trans people they are just digging their own graves if they don’t get in line and follow the status quo, even if they will be considered disposable regardless and continually used as bargaining points, and it’s “transphobe”.
At least with someone that straight up calls me a faggot it’s easy to dismiss and ignore them. You who insist on fucking pestering and debating marginalized people so you can feel superior when they die that “they didn’t follow the correct strategy” make my blood boil.
I watched the first few minutes of Biden before I was hit with sadness and disappointment. Biden just didn’t have it together. Although his hoarseness made it worse, Biden fumbled his words, lost his train of thought and just came off as feeble and incompetent. He needed to knock it out of the park, but he tripped on his own shoelaces shuffling up to the plate.
Meanwhile, the Orange Con ran roughshod over the “moderators.” Why the GOPQ slams CNN is a mystery to me. Tapper and Bash are totally in the pocket of the GOPQ. Sure, Trump lied and bloviated but that’s his brand and he was totally on brand last night.
So, I’m done making excuses for Biden. Sure, he’s a nice guy, experienced and all that, but it’s time for him to go.
This suggests that Biden might have been underperforming his potential for a temporary cause. A cold.
A cold can definitely fatigue you, especially as you get older.
The same goes for OTC cold medicines. Antihistamines for sure, some of which are sedating.
A few years ago, I came down with a bad cold followed by a bad cough. The cough would not go away but I needed to keep functioning. I took a variety of OTC cough medicines. None of them worked, which is a common result.
They mostly contained dextromethorphan, which in high doses is a dissociative hallucinogen, an NMDA receptor antagonist similar to ketamine.
By the time I got enough dextromethorphan in me to do anything, I started having very strange waking dreams. Which were not fun and made me stop taking them.
It’s possible we saw what happens when an 81 old guy with aging problems, gets a cold, and takes some sort of cold medicine.
Trump is a convicted felon who betrayed the country, makes policies for right-wing lunatics and religious bigots and openly declared his intentions to become a dictator. He’s also pro-Putin and pro-Netanyahu for all those who keep prattling about “Genocide Joe”.
But sure, Biden looked old that one time on TV (as did Trump in several appearances previously if you actually followed the news), so let’s act like the sky is falling down and hand Trump the presidency. Because the true enemy is the center and fascism is what will lead to a left-wing utopia the fastest…OK how the fuck do you pick up such idiotic logic?
As MSNBC pointed out last night, virtually every singe incumbent president has flubbed their first debate going back to George HW Bush. One bad debate indicates absolutely nothing about how the incumbent is going to actually do when it’s time to vote, especially given how early in the election cycle this debate is- normally there wouldn’t be one until September. Also pointed out by MSNBC: the skills of being a good debater and the skills of being a good president are so completely different from each other that there’s basically no overlap.
And as for Joe dropping out of the race now, the last time that happened was 1968, according to Heather Cox Richardson, and it threw the campaign into chaos and handed victory to Richard Nixon. Having Biden drop out right now doesn’t seem like a winning strategy.
You want to stop Trump and other fascists, you ultimately use and advocate for bullets. While I’m voting for Biden, as well are most people I know, the idea that if he loses then we must necessarily give up the lives of trans people, access to reproductive care, resistance to genocide, just because a vote went a particular way, is absolutely asinine.
Here is the Independent’s list of potential replacements for Biden.
Kamala Harris VP
Peter Buttigieg Transportation secretary
Gretchen Whitmer Governor of Michigan
Gavin Newson Governor of California
Wes Moore Governor of Maryland
It’s a short list. I never even heard of Wes Moore.
The two that look best IMO, are Newson and Gretchen Whitmer.
Gretchen Whitmer has done a good job in a difficult state, that is Michigan.
She seems smart and competent and strong.
The Democratic National Committee and Democratic leadership should have been promoting people like the above a decade or so ago. Not starting on June 28, 2024, today.
Thank you, Hex. That’s exactly how I feel treated by Democrats as a person with a disability: Expendable. People like Augustus are doing their best to convince us by way of example that Democrats are terrible people who use the same fear tactics Republicans do. Instead of lulling could-be voters out of apathy and resignation, they’re doing their damnest to break down any hope of improvement and telling me to settle for squeaking by. I’m tired of following conventional wisdom and getting nothing each time.
If it looks like the California governor or someone else has a fighting chance (there will certainly be lots of polls about it), and the next debate is bad, for fucks sake have a brokered convention.
When I saw this topic, my first instinct was to concentrate on work because this is just going round-and-round again. But, while you’re arguing Joe/NoJoe, correct political thinking and all that, I’m watching the headlines about decisions being made by the Supreme Court TODAY. It’s a good day for conservatives. They own the courts. They own the courts because…in 1980…good people like me could not vote for Carter, so we ended up with Reagan who appointed Thomas. Also because in 2020 good people wouldn’t vote for Clinton and Trump could put three scumbags on the court. So now a NoJoe vote is a Trump vote (or his replacement should he keel over in a slobbering pile from a cerebrovascular accident…I wish). With Trump, on top of so much else we will loose, we also loose at least one replacement on the Supreme Court. Thomas is 76. He’s in hot water anyway. A new Republican president would pressure him to retire so they can pack the court with yet another Federalist Society approved justice.
You’re not voting Joe/NoJoe. That old man is only a part of the picture.
And before anyone lectures me about liberals or Americans or correct political thinking, I’ve heard it, read it…and yes, even said it myself. So have a field day. I’m signing out for the day.
When I saw this topic, my first instinct was to concentrate on work because this is just going round-and-round again. But, while you’re arguing Joe/NoJoe, correct political thinking and all that, I’m watching the headlines about decisions being made by the Supreme Court TODAY. It’s a good day for conservatives. They own the courts. They own the courts because…in 1980…good people like me could not vote for Carter, so we ended up with Reagan who appointed Thomas. Also because in 2020 good people wouldn’t vote for Clinton and Trump could put three scumbags on the court. So now a NoJoe vote is a Trump vote (or his replacement should he keel over in a slobbering pile from a cerebrovascular accident…I wish). With Trump, on top of so much else we will loose, we also loose at least one replacement on the Supreme Court. Thomas is 76. He’s in hot water anyway. A new Republican president would pressure him to retire so they can pack the court with yet another Federalist Society approved justice.
You’re not voting Joe/NoJoe. That old man is only a part of the picture.
And before anyone lectures me about liberals or Americans or correct political thinking, I’ve heard it, read it…and yes, even said it myself. So have a field day. I’m signing out for the day.
And for the record, this isn’t about one bad debate. This is a pattern of behavior that continues unchanged.
The Republicans understand that if the law isn’t working for them, then fuck the law—use whatever treachery they can to get into power, then change the laws to favor them and them only. The Democrats care more about following such laws which were created by fascists, genocide perpetrators, and slave holders, than advocating civil disobedience. The law is fucking made up, the only thing that gives it power is that it’s backed by violence. I don’t want to live under fucking arbitrary systems that give a handful of people massive amounts of power over the lives of others. Even if run by “good” people, it’s only a matter of time before it is co-opted by fascists. Kill the fucking concept of law and order in your head. Kill the idea rooted in patriarchy that groups of people “just don’t know what’s good for them” and need authoritarianism. If your political activism ends at telling people to vote, if you won’t advocate for resistance against fascists and the systems that enable them regardless of who is in office, then the gulf between you and the fascists is far smaller than that separating you and those actively resisting them.
I remember a political cartoon from 2020: Protester holding a bunch of signs demanding various beneficial reforms we need. The other was Biden holding up “Defeat Trump” as his only counterpoint. I sympathized with the protestor, which was the opposite of what the author expected. Apparently the author of the cartoon never considered that making campaign promises might get more people to vote for him and defeat Trump that way. I’m still voting Biden, if it comes to that, but with people like Augustus letting Republican define the terms of the election, I’m not anymore optimistic than I was in 2020.
For so many trans people, including myself, the only reason life has been worth living has been because we’ve been able to live as our authentic selves and to form communities that support and protect us. We would quite literally rather die fighting than be forced into the closet, back into a life of misery and abuse. There is no other option for us—what some people are suggesting seems to assume we can just “turn off” being trans and that it would be better than the alternative. That we just have to suffer so that “normal” people don’t have to. Fuck that shit.
We’re going to fight, and those who get angry at us for that rather than joining us were never on our side to begin with—your support was conditional on us being “behaved” in the face of our oppression and genocide. You are no different than someone who would yell at Black and Indigenous people for advocating violent resistance against slave owners, or Jews advocating to fight Nazis. Every person who was “on their side” who yelled at them to stay in line had the same thought process as people like you. It’s illuminating looking at writings by liberals pre-WWII claiming they are against anti-semitism in one breath but in the next state shit like “it is difficult because Jews yell ‘fire’ when there is none”. Same fucking shit—the question is, will enough people ever learn and change?
@robro, for the record, George Bush Sr. nominated Clarence Thomas.
I believe MLK said that lukewarm support was far more bewildering than outright hostility. That’s my problem. It’s not just bewildering but demoralizing.
@AugustusVerger:
You can literally throw a dart at the US map and pick the governor, senator, etc of that state if he/she is a Democrat and they will have higher chance of winning against Trump than Biden. You are fucking delusional is you think Biden has any chance. Biden has lost. He was a zombie years ago.
Also to rub it in, the old republican zombies of the supreme court Alito and Thomas will also retire and Trump will appoint 40 something lunatics to replace them, guaranteeing a Republican dominated supreme court for decades.
Everything Augustus has said about Biden is pretty much the same things they said to me about Hillary.
Thanks, lotharloo, for asserting something with zero evidence and reasoning to back it up.
Makes it easy for me to utterly ignore it.
So “Anyone But Trump” is bad and naive but “Anyone but Biden” is totally going to work, huh?
@Recursive Rabbit:
Precisely. Joe has been demented for a long time. He has mixed up and brought up Mitterand and Helmut Kohl and decades gone politicians in the past. He was already too far gone. But when I brought these up in the past, everyone was coping, displaying cognitive dissonance and they were not willing to acknowledge it.
Joe is too old. He is not eligible to be the president of the USA. The fact that the other guy is a criminal does not change this fact.
So many trans people are arming up, banding together, because we know shit is serious right now. We are under no illusions that chances of “winning” aren’t great, but our primary goals are to defend our lives and communities to the best extent we can, to make fascists think twice about fucking with us. We know the vast majority of “allies” will sit by and do squat, as illustrated by how much they go on about how horrible things are if voting goes a certain way but doing little in community and material preparation, because most of you won’t actually experience the brunt of the horrors, that’s just for “queers” to suffer thru. Even though if a fraction joined us in solidarity it could make a huge difference. But too many would rather live under fascism than die fighting it. I personally have no fucking idea how you can even be happy under it—nonexistence feels to me so much better than constant suffering—but then again I’m not a straight cis guy. Which is why I want an end to all systems like capitalism and statism that enables and encourages domination against anyone who doesn’t “fit in”, where “fitting in” means anything outside of being white, straight, cis, male, etc.
@AugustusVerger
Look up generic democrat vs Trump polls. Trump loses double digits. There you go for evidence. Any other fucking excuse you may want to excrete?
Suggesting non-politicians like Michelle Obama really opens the door. How about Tom Hanks then? He’s very well known and generally popular across the spectrum.
It’s hard to be a Cassandra, especially among militant Pollyannas.
The best we can hope for at this point is sticking with Biden and him doing a James Holden on inauguration day.
“I believe MLK said that lukewarm support was far more bewildering than outright hostility. That’s my problem. It’s not just bewildering but demoralizing.”
Absolutely this. Outright hostility is easy to deal with—you fight back, don’t give a shit. But lukewarm “support”, the kind that is conditional on people like me being “good girls who don’t get too angry and violent at the people trying to kill us because that looks bad, and who don’t dismantling of the systems that enable them!” is honestly the most mentally and emotionally taxing. The right wing wants to kill us outright; the centrists and liberals are ok with us dying as long as it’s done “lawfully” or if it’s in response to one of us stepping out of line, hiding behind arbitrary deontological systems of morality that paint themselves as ethical superior while they do jack shit of actual consequence
I love how the horseshoe left thinks their advice is valuable.
Despite their decades long absence of any success and spending a lot of that time supporting rightists and conservatives instead.
Ok, one final point. Technically Biden can still win:
Trump drops dead in the last second after picking Tim Scott as VP who gets the nomination and Republicans don’t vote for a black guy.
Somehow, Trump gets convicted before the election and somehow this impacts enough voters for them to switch or stay home.
Those are the highest probability events, I think. Both are very unlikely obviously so this election is almost over. In the last election, Joe had close to 9-10 points lead and yet it was relatively close. In this election, Trump is 1 point ahead. You do the math.
lotharoo @57:
I’m not even judging cognitive ability of one candidate. This is how the new Democratic strategy looks to me: Don’t offer anything except a reprieve from the worst, and settle for being second-worst as the means of getting elected. If anything, it feels like Democrats have been deliberately skirting the brink of defeat to keep us in panic mode. It’s not sustainable because people like me get exhausted being told that brinkmanship is the only way of life. I’m not a machine. Poking the panic button over and over is eventually going to get me to do something drastic to change the rules. The Democratic leadership needs to wake up to this aspect of human nature, rather than blindly following past metrics in a changing world.
Yup. Hillary was a terrible candidate to put up against Trump, and at this stage so is Biden. Any suggestion that the election will be lost if Biden is replaced, but there is a reasonable chance for him to win if he stays on (presumably because some people believe last night’s performance didn’t boost the Trump campaign’s consistent argument that Biden is too doddery for 4 more years in the most important political position in the world, or that it hasn’t really derailed Biden’s campaign), is deluded, wishful thinking. Or utter bollocks, take your pick. So was the belief that Hillary would beat Trump neatly because she was the most qualified and least compromised candidate – which while true was not relevant to the majority of swing voters.
Oh, good, so you’re going to stop doing the same thing now. Great, I fuckin hate hypocrisy..
@AugustusVerger:
Your posts have literally no content, no argument, no information, no links, or no valuable insights; they are just insults. You can fuck off to hell and nobody will notice anything is different.
i have to admit i was a little bit frustrated by all the leftist men of the people here talking about the need for smoke-filled rooms and not letting the hoi polloi pick a candidate (im also sure that they wouldnt throw a tantrum the minute they saw who the picked candidate was!), but i also think he has also begun to grasp at @14 just what a mess a brokered convention would be.
@55
for a demented guy, joe seems to have been doing a pretty good job as president. i mean, hes been super labor friendly, ended the disastrous war in afghanistan, and our economy has bounced back frm covid just about better than anywhere else.
@56
so uh, how many cops and transphobes have u shot down yet, tough guy? u and ur friends must be quite a force to have successfully resisted the might of the us police and military, but i still think id rather go for joe’s boring ‘supportive of trans rights’ administration than ur little LARP.
@57
im convinced! where is this ‘generic democrat’ from? how can i vote for him for president??
bottom line, i wish the debate had gone better too but i think the wailing and gnashing of teeth across the left to the center has been an absolute disgrace, but i dont really see a better bet right now than we have so maybe we need to be a little more resilient and see how everything shakes out in maybe i dunno a week or the next round of polling be4 assembling the circular firing squad?
O you mean the same thing would happen to me that already happened to you horseshoe leftists? That everyone ignores you because you are so fucking lazy and useless and constantly act in opposition to the goals you profess?
You are only good as useful idiots to boost fascist agendas. Too bad you weren’t born with enough self-awareness to notice.
I’d be ok with Elizabeth Warren or Kamala Harris. Maybe Gavin Newsom. But we’re stuck with Joe and I’ll vote for him. Hopefully he was under the weather last night with all the coughing and clearing his throat and will bounce back if another debate happens.
dorght @60-
James Holden the electronica musician? Must be better than doing a William Holden!
@whatmannerofloaf:
If Joe wants to run, he will run and nobody can stop him. The realistic talk of replacing him relies on the assumption that he is somehow convinced to step aside.
Notice how the horseshoe left at no point demands the Republicas to drop support for Trump despite him being a traitor, convicted felon, perpetual liar, open admirer of Netanyahu and his Palestinian genocide and anti-democratic wannabe dictator who kisses up to Putin and wants to abandon Europe to him. O yeah, and he’s also about as challenged by age issues and was hopped up on mets in the last debate.
Tells you all you need to know about the sorry lot.
@Augustus Verger
FYI, the “tankie” “leftists” Thomas Friedman and Paul Krugman are currently telling Biden to drop out.
The last time people listened to the horseshoe leftists, well the last few times we got first Bush the Lesser who threw the entire Middle East into turmoil with the aftereffects still being felt today and then Trump who stuffed the Supreme Court and other courts with his cronies which infamously resulted in the abolishment of Roe v Wade, so half of the US were being downgraded to birthing slaves.
But sure, listen to them again, be the eggs they feel they need to smash for their coming leftist utopia!
Well, between this and the SCOTUS decisions today, it’s gonna be an interesting series finale for America…. 🤣😭
Honestly AugustusVerger is the most boring commentator I have seen in a long time. The only thing I remember from their posts is something about “horseshoe leftists”. I am guessing they are bad leftists.
His press conference in Hanoi on Sept 10, 2023 made this abundantly clear.
I guess congrats for finally figuring this out?
@56
I AM A TRANS WOMAN YOU PIECE OF SHIT. DON’T CALL ME A “TOUGH GUY”. For the fucking matter, we’ve been training for community defense, as well as building up support networks for housing and food. No one is seriously suggesting killing random cops as that won’t affect shit but getting anyone arrested. If someone’s gonna go after anyone, it’s best it be a high profile person with lots of power. If the cops come after us, to take away our medical care, to try to destroy our community, we will fight back.
PZ, you have a real fucking problem with cis people in the comments talking down on trans people who are doing everything we can to survive for the “crime” of stating the fact that violent resistance is necessary in the face of a genocide.
Augustus, what is your actual goal, here?
@70
i agree! then comes the problem – how do you transition from joe to the next candidate before the convention? this thread has pointed out a LOT of important dems who would all have a realistic shot at becoming the nominee in addition to the obvious choice of kamala harris. how is this going to be done in a way that:
1 – doesn’t split the party (or lets be honest, make it “look” like the dems are a split party cuz thats what the media is itchin to see) and…
2 – give a better chance of winning. whoever is the successor had better be ready to hit the ground running on policy, sell themselves to folks to couldnt be convinced by bidens results, and not have any potential skeletons that could come to light. as pz pointed out above about ohio, there are also potential logistical issues as well that would need to be solved.
thats why my response to this whole thing today is that we cant start running around with our hair on fire in june after one bad performance 4 half a debate.
well, that and laughing about a bunch of leftists suddenly deciding that the primary results were not enough and that a vanguard must preserve the revolution from the choice of the ppl.
Hemidactylus @69 James Holden from The Expanse who upon being made president of the Transport Union alliance of the Earth, Mars and the Belt immediately resigns and allows his vice president (a Belter) to take power.
No other candidate has any sort of realistic chance.
Here’s what happens when the Dems drop Biden:
The new republican attack avenue becomes that the dems are weak cowards who dropped the support for their candidate just because he made a bad public appearance. He didn’t even say anything majorly controversial, he just “looked old” and apparently that’s now a cardinal sin. They will use that as a means to basically attack the entire Biden presidency and take it as justification to deligitimize his election altogether because, hey, the democrats knew he was unfit and yet they pushed him all the same. The new candidate will be titled as leftovers, sloppy seconds to an old geezer and the candidate of embarassment and have no means whatsoever to shake these titles until the election and probably lose his seat too as a result. Meanwhile the entire Biden government has lost any legitimacy to do anything in the current term because the party turned on him on a panicked whim.
That’s what will happen. These fantasies that some miracle candidate will somehow rejuvenate the democratic campaign are folly, that’s not going to happen and you know it. The mediasphere is interested in scandals and negativity for views and attention, the new candidate will be buried and have no support. After all, if the democrats can backstab one candidate for superficial reasons then they can do it again.
You’d think that by now people would understand that you can’t defeat fascism legislatively. The very presence of these systems gives them power over others that they would be hard-pressed to accumulate otherwise. Once you commit to following “the law” above all, you commit to mass atrocity if fascists get into power. All this fucking nonsense about these awful candidates affecting millions of people can be solved by a few fucking bullets. Instead it’s demanded that we resign to perpetual suffering and death so this stupid fucking empire built by and for rich white dudes who killed the previous inhabitants and owned other human beings can chug along.
@56
my apologies, but i did not know that. u must be a real tough gal! im sure youve made the high and powerful ppl everywhere shake in their boots!
im also sure your little militia wont end in a hail of police gunfire with nothing gained, mainly becuz ultimately i think ur nothing but a LARPer who wouldnt even get that far.
u know what would also be good for stopping a genocide btw? fighting to get the party that supports trans rights elected and holding the levers of state power even when they dont conform 100% to your views
@82
whoah, again with the big talk!
im assuming your volunteering to perform the glorious propaganda of the deed?
Emphasis added. That’s why I have a hard time believing you take anything seriously at all, Augustus. It’s why I can’t stand MAGA hats. They treat life and death issues for us voters as if they were jokes or luxuries, rather than affecting the lives of real people. You’re just a troll here to perform and rile us up for your own lulz. I’m done with this thread.
@whatmannerofloaf:
The transition from Joe should have happened long ago. This whole sequence of events has been very predictable for a very long time. It was very clear that Joe is demented for a long time, as it was clear that the Democratic party was trying to silence and pressure everyone to get behind Joe for the sake of “unity”. So moving past Joe is very unlikely and the thing is that a lot of the Democrats are “waiting for their turn”. Newsom definitely has presidential ambitions but he doesn’t want to sour the donors and other people in the party so he patiently waits his turn because ultimately what a lot of these fuckers care about is themselves.
That being said, technically, in a few weeks there will be more and more polls and it is possible that Joe steps aside by looking at the polls but I would not hold my breath. And if that happens, they might have some back up plan on who to put forward, likely KH. It is all pretty hopeless anyways.
And about splitting the party and what not, if it comes to that, splitting the party would have been the least of the concerns.
Literally anyone in the Democratic party can do a better job of defending Joe Biden’s accomplishments than Joe Biden. A lot of the numbers are pretty good so I would not worry about them campaigning.
As poll after poll after poll after poll shows, the generic voter is mostly concerned about Joe Biden’s age rather than his accomplishments. There is nothing to convince people of when they see an obviously senile person on the stage, moving at the snails speed and looking like he is about to drop dead any second. There is no resume good enough that will convince an average voter to vote for him.
The united states is not a force for good. No authoritarian states are. They are set up to benefit a small number of people at the expense of literally everyone else. Sure, vote for the lesser of evils, but never stop fighting for an end to them completely. No minority rights are ever truly won under systems that can revoke them on a whim. I don’t want to have to continually beg overlords that I and my trans loved ones are “worthy” of being allowed to live. If you’re not committed to ending systems where that is a thing, for trans people, women, POC, disabled people, etc, and intersections of such, then you’re not committed to liberation, full stop.
I get it. After the debate last night, my first reactions were to slit my wrists, then hang myself and then stick a shotgun (which I don’t own) in my mouth and then look at property in Canada. My better subsequent reactions are to recognize how profoundly that debate amplified the fight, flight or freeze response triggered in me and so many others by DJT. And that response, that amygdala hijack, plays havoc with careful thinking.
That fight, flight or freeze response is precisely the reason why I believe that the worst idea possible right now is to opt for a replacement or a brokered convention. Such a decision is an explicit expression of weakness and chaos.
People in this country are desperate to believe that things are going to be OK. It’s a terrifying world out there. As the great family therapist Virginia Satir said “People prefer the certainty of misery to the misery of uncertainty.” Our brains are prediction machines with the main function of increasing the chance of survival, and we hate chaos, the inability to make predictions. This is such a deep part of brain function that you see the same thing in mice and rats and dogs and cats as you do in humans.
Look at what happens in the GOP when a “fatal” blow is delivered to DJT. They all rally around him and he behaves as though it was a win. That is good optics. It sends a message that “You are in safe hands,” which is the main message from DJT.
Last night, for the first time, i felt that i truly understood why the German people chose Hitler. He did a great job with the optics, just as DJT did a great job with the optics last night. He played to the desire for certainty.
So what do we do? These are hard choices, amplified by our fear and uncertainty.
Any choice is an unknown, which can give strength to a known outcome of misery over uncertainty. Yes, there is uncertainty with Biden, and that needs to be addressed.
But, you very smart people who are arguing for open conventions and new candidates, please think about all the ramifications from a perspective of brain function. From my point of view, those choices have problems that may play right to DJT’s strengths.
To my mind, there is no question but that we have to rally around Biden. Personally, I would approach it from the point of view that even on a bad night it was clear that Biden gets things done and knows what he’s talking about and has a record of accomplishment that is stellar and that he is a deeply decent person. On what was a good night for DJT, it was equally clear that he lies constantly, that he could not answer and would not answer the questions that he was asked. He lied about what was going on in his administration just as he lies about what is going on now.
As the Stoic philosophers put it, every obstacle is an opportunity, and this is an opportunity to forcefully express that even on an off night Biden is infinitely better than the alternative. The alternative lies without a shred of remorse and that was on full display last night.
Just some thoughts
P.S. And, by the way, Biden campaign people, where is the Biden response that says something like “I apologize. That was a lousy debate performance. I entered it with one of those miserable summer colds, and was hoarse as hell. I also don’t wear makeup – and when you see DJT without all the artificial makeup we look about the same age. But that stuff does not excuse that the key thing is that even on an off night, I answered questions, dealt with facts and stayed true to decency. And DJT did what he always does. He lies endlessly (as the fact checkers are pointing out), and he smiles while doing it. He’s the conman who will smile at you while picking your pocket and hitting on your wife (or daughter). That’s who he is. What matters is what we do, and we are going to create side-by-side comparisons for all Trump’s claims with reality, and that compare what he did with what we’ve accomplished.”
@Recursive Rabbit
By “superficial reasons” Augustus means “age” or “looking old”.
But of course the reality is that the polls show this is what most people are most concerned. As I wrote, the reality is that there is no resume good enough that will make Joe Biden win the next election and the electorate has actually a point here: Joe Biden by any reasonable standards is not eligible to be the president of any country because he is too old. The fact that his opponent is a criminal does not change this fact.
@83
Go fuck yourself, I hope you also fucking die.
Imagine saying any of this shit to Black people wanting to fight against slavery, Jews wanting to fight against Nazis. Next time you want to say something like that, think about what you would have done at those points in history, and if you still want to say that shit, how about you just kill yourself instead.
The fucking democrats, who when states revokes trans people’s means of living, allows discrimination, destroys our medical care we need to live, destroys our communities, destroys reproductive healthcare, says “sorry, gotta follow the law!” And “vote harder!” and refuses to advocate for any civil disobedience or resistance against fascists.
FWIW I’d love to see Corey Booker, Stacy Abrams or Katie Porter become the new Denmocrtaic nominee and then POTUS. AOC too but gather she’s too young to be allowed.
@Hex:
I don’t know what is going on between you and the other person but calling for the death of someone or for someone to go kill themselves is really beyond pale.
Democratic party that is. Parties in a mess, seems apt its spelling is too. Or I just cannot type for shit. The latter. Both.
@86
leaving aside what happened in the past since it cant be changed, i think we’ve got a pretty fundamental difference here:
again, there might be a backup plan but how do u get buy-in from everybody without turning this into a free-for-all? and if its all hopeless, whats even the point of discussing it?
and while currently the generic voter might be concerned about bidens age, that doesnt mean theyll just automatically see whoever replaces him as “biden, but younger”, esp if it seems like the democrats are foisting a candidate who couldnt win a “real primary” on the country. (“well i thought biden was too old, but that gavin newsom comes from commie-fornia so i just wish they’d have picked someone else … no no not kamala she had issues with the border … no no mayor pete doesnt understand my blue collar concerns … etc)
Calling me a fucking LARPer as if I don’t get threatened or harassed on a daily basis when going out for walks, as if my family isn’t suffering from severe depression and anxiety because of this shit. It’s a fucking miracle I’m even alive right now to type this, when dozens of my loved ones haven’t made it to the age I’m at and countless more are suffering even beyond what I’n already. I’m a fucking larper to suggest that people need to arm up to defend against fascists, to not want to be content with voting under a system that continually hangs a dagger over the heads of me and my family. You’re an absolute piece of shit. I’d much rather deal with someone calling me a tranny than your smug, condescending ass, wrapping your disdain for trans people in “concern” for our wellbeing.
@92
I will tell Nazis to kill themselves, I will tell racists to kill themselves, and I will tell transphobes to kill themselves, full stop.
Another very recent Jim Wright Stonekettle Station blog post onBidenand inspiration and duty and eclections here :
https://www.stonekettle.com/2024/06/do-what-we-ought.html
Well worth readin gand contemplating in my view.
Fuck civility politics. All you fucking cis people who are telling trans people whether or not it is appropriate to get upset at the people and systems who are genociding us, for not being content with scraps, fuck you too.
@Hex:
I could be wrong but that kind of language could be harmful for people who struggle with suicidal thoughts. I would say just find different insults instead of insults that advocate for suicides.
The thing that gets me is that throughout history there have been people like me yelling out to support ending atrocity as the walls close in around us, and people complaining that they’re yelling too loud or supporting violence. All of you are doing right now exactly what you would have done during the holocaust, it’s no fucking different.
@90
now your wishing for my death as well? you seem positively EAGER to go all killing fields on folks. maybe its better that someone like you stays far away from guns or politics.
so lets look at the history of various marginalized groups fighting for justice. lessee here…
in the case of black folks, they were absolutely willing to support racist candidates who were also capable of evolving their views and who worked on their behalf. abraham lincoln wasnt exactly the great emancipator in the election of 1860 after all, and neither franklin roosevelt or lyndon b johnson had the most enlightened views on race, but black people unquestionably benefitted from all three.
in the case of jews fighting the nazis, lets first talk about pre-war. there i would say that the german communists and non-nazi conservatives would have absolutely been better off fighting alongside the social democrats rather than focusing on slavishly following moscow’s every whim in the former or deciding that revenge for versailles was more important than genocide for the latter.
then when the war began, we saw the effectiveness of small militia-like groups attempting to resist armies. it did not work out for the former. the remaining jews of europe were only saved in 1945 due to the deeply imperfect united states, britain, and ussr defeating the nazis in the field and destroying the state that was carrying out their extermination. would u have opted to stay in the camps until u were liberated by the glorious, totally non-problematic army of madeupistan?
@ Hex : Huge respect. I can imagine and sympatheise. You deserve better.
But please be better and don’t fallt otheir level. World is already bad enough and hateful and divided enough. Can understadn to adegree but yeah, that. Please.
.***
How absurd is it that AOC is too young but yet Biden not too old?
USA POTUS qually-wise.
@99
That’s a decent point. But that said, I legit don’t want people who will side with fascists when marginalized people fight back or even just suggest fighting back, to be around.
I think I’m done here. This site is absolutely miserable to be on.
@100
what i am doing now is supporting a political party that takes trans rights seriously and wants to keep trans people alive and participating as equals in our society, not as extras in u and ur friends’ little last-stand fantasy where you unload one blue and one pink revolver on the charging maga dervishes and then i dunno, maybe get a folk song sung about u in an underground trans cofeehouse in a hundred years or so?
youre not the only person in the world who is trans or has trans friends or loved ones btw
@103. Hex :Please stick around . I said Respect for you and I mean that. Appreciate your comments and your voice here. Take a self-care break if needed. Understand that. Can relate. But know that you are appreciated by me and I am sure by others here too.
@101 I don’t have much else to say other than way to fucking ignore the huge history of Black people who supported and fought for resistance. You praise the white “saviors” of them, and the assimilation of them in a country that rounded them up and placed them under slavery to begin with. And even today, these systems continually fail and discriminate against them. I don’t know about you, but being abducted by an imperialist nation only to receive limited rights and poor conditions still under their rule is hardly “progress” against dismantling the empire to begin with. Not to mention that chattel slavery was quite literally ended with bullets. Same with WWII. Your strategy seems to be that minority populations just have to suffer until enough white people are on board, while never actually threatening the very systems of white supremacy that force people who don’t fit in to be subjugated to them.
I’m so tired, this fucking sucks. I don’t want to get angry and tell people to kill themselves. I want more people to fight alongside trans people and oppressed people around the world. But it’s so hard to not get angry and frustrated. Why is it that we always have to “compromise” our already compromised lives for “progress”? When do white cis het people ever have to “compromise”? If this is what life will always be like, minorities having to plead fealty to liberals and centrists so they only let fascists kill some rather than all of us? If so it’s a truly miserable existence and I’m honestly upset that anyone wants to keep it going
Democrats: we have to run Biden despite him being increasingly widely hated for the things he has done (just like Hillary Clinton was!) and people will vote for him even though they actively hate him because the alternative is Trump!
Also Democrats: We can’t run anybody but Biden because nobody else has name recognition!
Come on, folks, if name recognition matters, Biden is a losing proposition. He has alienated way too many people between his dismissal of Covid, his pro-fossil-fuels stance, his support of Israel, and his do-nothing attitude on abortion. If that doesn’t matter, then anybody would be an acceptable candidate, and you have nothing to lose by ditching him.
But, of course, you cretins have long since stopped believing that the point of the party is to help people, you think the people exist to help the party, so of course you’re going to stay on the sinking ship rather than try to stay afloat. Brand loyalty über alles! Who cares how many Palestinians Joe kills, who cares how much of the budget goes to cops and the military, who cares how much faster climate change accelerates because of Biden policies, he’s our candidate, right or wrong!
When it comes down to it, when you have structures that affords as much power to small groups of people as the US government does, sooner or later shitty people will get into power and use the exact same playbook as always (targeting minority groups as the source of all evils), and libs will say “well we know they’re wrong but we gotta compromise otherwise we won’t get enough votes from people who believe them! They’re only a minority, won’t you think of the greater good!”. Am seeing the exact same shit play out in the comments here. It’s fucking bleak, there’s never any solidarity, only endless compromises that result in giving fascists more and more power.
@106 i guess your little group of wannabe black hands doesnt emphasize reading comprehension? maybe u should make it a topic in ur next struggle session!
i called the examples of white allies problematic and said that they evolved over time. pls point out where i called them saviours and said black people owed them their freedom?
when discussing the liberation of black ppl from slavery, i pointed out their willingness to ally with problematic people as a means of securing their freedom in a series of incremental steps. i never once denied black agency in their struggle for freedom or denied the existence of systemic racism.
oh, and the freed slaves were mainly looking to be treated as citizens with the same dignity and rights as other citizens, not ‘dismantling the empire’. if that has their criterion for freedom, they’d still be slaves today.
both victories were also caused by allying with some pretty problematic people was my point. meanwhile you cant go five minutes without wishing a trans-supporting democrat’s death!
i have no idea how you took that from my comment. i was laughing at your pitiful tough talk and pointing out that incremental gains over time can successfully deliver results, while your little tantrum has done nothing to advance the liberty or security of trans ppl or any other marginalized group.
It sickens me when someone says it was better for marginalized people to “compromise” than to violently resist. It’s the same logic a rapist professes to their victim.
@104
Looks like you are only personally insulting people like in 68 with your simple accusations about what Hex is doing. And they have the perspective about allies that matters here.
I understand the rule about telling people to kill themselves, but I understand the sentiment from Hex. I would abandon you if I knew you whatmannerofloaf. Maybe try doing something useful instead of larping accusations, because I don’t think your efforts here even amount to that.
You know what @110, forget it. Go fucking kill yourself, you absolute piece of shit condescending troll.
What Corey Booker says here on his interview on Colbert – just replayed tonight in South Oz (5 mins 50 secs approx) is truth I reckon. Worth hearing? Listen. Think. Please.
Done with this site, am done with any interaction with cis people outside of my community. I’d rather die than share a hellworld with some of you
Is there not already a surfeit of cruelty and pain inflicted by too many humans upon too many other different humans?
Can we not be kind to each other?
Too hard?
Can we not unite and stop the worst from beating if not the best then at least the not as fucking bad?
Too hard?
I will not give in to despair but fuck’s sake.. the trends do not look good. The rhyming not repteing history deos not say much good about where we are yet a -fucking-gain.
Let’s change that. Please. Work together not against each other. Please.
@112
i appreciate ur strong convictions on the matter of not telling ppl to kill themselves!
@116
county democratic parties can be found here. theres good opportunity for volunteering:
https://www.reddit.com/r/VoteDEM/wiki/parties/
heres the mobilize page for biden campaign events. theres lots of diff kinds of volunteering you can do there:
https://www.mobilize.us/joebiden/
@115. Hex :Let’s work to make a world that isn’t hell. For anyone.
Please.
We won’t never get Utopia* but fuck we can get far closer to it than we are now if we try.
.* Not the eponymous plains on Mars.
@whatmannerofloaf 117
And if you were a remotely honest human being you would recognize the rest of my comment. I don’t give a shit about you on a personal level at this point. I’d piss you out of you were on fire but that is it.
Even your comment about my convictions is dishonesty. You will be you I guess.
Hex isn’t the one to pressure her. Just like that poster Vivec wasn’t the one to pressure for leaving Pharyngula permanently after people kept suppressing discussion about sexual harassment and assault. If Hex leaves that is a cost.
@121
for heaven’s sake, just tell me to kill myself. its ok, everybody is frustrated now, i just cant stand that kind of mealy-mouthed “tee hee i dont approve of telling you killing yourself but in your case kill yourself” equivocation.
hex was posting disturbing and violent fantasies, then completely flew off the handle at some pretty light pushback.
Still avoiding the rest of my comment and making up things about what I want to do. I can smell the urine in whatmannerofloaf’s undergarments through my phone.
Those impressions about anything beyond the suicide request are worth less than the urine smell.
You are frustrated whatmannerofloaf. And you can be frustrated.
oh man … is it gettin a little hot in here or is it just me?
oh man … is it gettin a little hot in here or is it just me?
sorry brony, i didnt mean to get excited and post twice.
please stay, we can still cuddle and i’ll make breakfast in the morning…
You’re the one dependent on the superficial impressions whatmannerofloaf, I’m just giving you the same right back. You can show something concrete anytime. If this was as serious to you as you claim you’d be doing it now instead of fake urine fetish language.
Is anything real about you whatmannerofloaf? At least Hex’s frustration is connected to something real.
Go on. I can keep pointing out how your own use of body language is mockery of me, while mine directly challenges your courage.
@Hex: Take a step back right now. Tempers are absolutely flaring and yeah, some of us are extremely worried. (My anxiety kept waking me up last night.) But don’t abandon the site, please.
If Hex is frustrated. That wasn’t my place to say. But those negative feelings were connected to real things.
Unless Biden steps down (highly unlikely) or is genuinely incapacitated in some way (also fairly unlikely), Biden is the one running for president, period. That is the reality we need to deal with, and not waste a bunch of time on who we wish was running.
Yes, Biden’s performance last night was disgraceful and demoralizing. We’ve always had a long, ugly, uphill slog to defeating fascism in this election, and Biden chose to make the fight ten times harder last night. He’s still going to be at the top of the ticket, barring either of those two things I mentioned above, which none of us has any control over. It sucks, but that’s the reality.
Make no mistake- if Biden did leave now, it would not make things easier for us. The election is five months away. Putting someone without the advantage of the Biden’s accomplishments as president on the ticket would be a bigger disaster than working with what we have.
And that’s exactly what we to do: work with what we have. Not with what wish we had, or with what we might have had. Nor can we waste time re-litigating past elections. We cannot afford to waste our energy on this pointless infighting and petty bickering, especially after Joe Biden took a giant shit in the middle of the stage last night.
We either clean it up and carry on, or we surrender to fascism. These are our two options. It’s shit, but that’s where we stand. So how do we clean this up? Let’s start by remembering that Biden has actual progressive accomplishments.
For one, he really has done more to fight climate change than any other president. No, it’s not enough, but you have to remember than our other option is Trump, the man who thinks that we can pave over the entire planet’s surface and get by with a couple of flower pots.
He’s been good on LGBTQ+ rights. No, not as good as I’d like, but again, let’s remember that Trump and his buddies at Project 2025 have mapped out a plan for exterminating us. There’s not really a contest there; if Trump wins, his White Christian Nationalist buddies kill as many of us as they can.
He’s been surprisingly good on fighting against the wealthy and corporations, considering his record in the legislature. He’s got plans to make them pay a little more of their fair share and, if we can somehow wrest control of the legislature from Republicans, maybe we can make that a reality.
He’s been good on fighting childhood poverty and student loan debt. Again, having a Republican House of Representatives limits what he can do, but it’s possible to fix that.
That’s not an exhaustive list. We need to get it through our heads that this is what we have to fight with, and get to fighting the real enemy. Because if we don’t stop the fascists at the ballot box in November, that’s almost certainly it for not just the US, but the world. Billions of lives are literally at stake here.
Beau of the Fifth Column’s latest youtube clip – Let’s talk about the Trump-Biden debate first impressions…. under five minutes long.
@ 132. vucodlak* :Truth. Well writ.
.* You deserve a capital letter but since I’m copy & pasting and spelling your name as you spell it.
TYT – Cenk Uygur Makes WILD Election Prediction After Disastrous Biden Debate Performance FWIW Seven minutes in length.I don’t necessarily, actually, agree but still.
@132
hit the nail on the head
In the end of the day, vucodlak is right on the money. I feel even people calling themselves staunch progressives and leftists are failing for the same propaganda of perceiving Biden as so incompetent (which his policies and records show to not be the case) that he’s worthless and “no better than Trump anyway so let’s vote third party”. For those saying a generic democrat can beat Trump far more easily, is that actually true or just cherry-picking polls? At this stage, getting a replacement will likely not lead to people voting for them and people will almost certainly not know anything about the accomplishments or background of the candidate, so no one will vote for sloppy seconds as suggested by the pragmatic people here. As one commentator suggested, the bigger picture about the surpreme court and the infestation of our government if Trump is elected is more of a concern than the current president is lame.
As for the people basically saying “tear the system down”, you sound no different than the MAGA extremists and their plans for America. It’s concerning and it touches upon a real problem among the progressive Left, obsession with purity politics, equating the center-left with far-right loons along with playing pretend, believing in fantasies better suited to corny YA novels and LARPing as heroic revolutionaries. Who does that benefit? Nobody; the truth is, America is a center-right country full of pragmatic and boring adults that vote for bread-on-the-table issues, not to destroy capitalism and usher in a socialist/anarchist society where everyone always gets along and such ideas make me wonder if many irreligious leftists replaced such ideas like heaven/afterlife/the spiritual realm with these more secular but still millenarian views.
@kitcarm 137
It depends on the part of the system to be torn down. You’ve nothing specific about that “side”.
Oops that was meant for kitcarm #138
I’m voting for Biden and trying to tear down lots of parts of systems. No, none of that language helps me at all. People can be upset at my system tearing and I vote for Biden.
Rejected.
I pretty much agree with vucodlak. I would also like to add that I think it is also important to put this in the context of climate change. Trump and the Reps deny that it is happening. We are already teetering on the edge and if Trump gets in, undoes everything Biden has done and attacks/gets rid of a lot of civil service employees that are working on this the human race is screwed. We’ve never faced a crisis like this before and, as we always do, we are not working collectively to solve/fix it but instead going down narrow self focused paths.
To clarify my first second comment: I mostly mean those wanting to tear out everything and burn it with gasoline until nothing is left, replace it with utopian anarchy or something paradisiacal, a idea better suited to a fantasy and sci-fi storyline tbh. Changing the system here and there with incremental progress is actually normal and has been done countless times since humanity began.
Getting more figurative is farther from problem system tearing. Still rejected.
All these feelings about too much purity, and nothing to attach them to. Maybe it’s a part of the system that needs more tearing? If one can’t even name the tearing in question I can’t even tell if one has actual concerns for underlying issues if all they have is feelings without real objects.
@142. Yeah, we need to see the bigger picture here. Too many people are hyper focused on this. I have a few family members that rely on several social services and welfare programs funded by the government to literally live. A Trump presidency will make such services erode or outright vanish. I myself am not immune either. I’m just sad that far too many people that are in similar situations are too obsessed with purity and will vote third party or not at all as a protest. And then there the people who need such services to survive but will vote Trump. I obviously detest the Trump-loving hypocrites that still expect government assistance knowing they vote against it but the former group still makes me somewhat disappointed.
Does no one remember that Joe Biden was supposed to be a “transitional president”? He ran on the premise of being a one term president, mostly because of his age. The issue is, no one stepped up to that transition. Harris is historically unpopular, Newsom is hated by a lot of the country over, well being from California. The rest of the party to far away from the middle to even compete in a general election. This was the issue in 2020 as well.
This is just a failure of leadership on the democratic side. People knew was probably too old in 2020, then spent the last 3 1/2 years saying he’s not to old and is as “sharp as ever”. We all saw it then, we see it now. The only issue now, is that nothing is working as far deflecting the concerns. These calls for a new candidate should have been listened to years ago, but if you said anything you were “Maga” if you aside anyone who want to be honest and not just fall in line, you get either a meandering, incoherent failed leader, or a tyrant.
With that said, the concerns should be heard and not ignored because it makes the party look weak. What makes you weak is not acting on what you know to be right because of fear of how it will make you or the party look. Biden should not be running 2024, Biden himself knew this is 2020.
I still don’t see problem tearing. Your big picture is useless.
I’ve no respect for non-specific purity obsession claims. The feel of roo much purity gets to run rampant with everyone applying their own view.
No.
So far I see purity kitcarm doesn’t like as the definition of purity obsession. I can play with figurative language more too to show what I think of that as the standard for all of us.
Brony, are you hopped up on drugs?
AugustusVerger likes to make insulting comparisons instead of something useful.
No plans after comparing unstated comments with a drug problem? This purity issue is looking less and less real.
Recent quote from Obama: “Bad debate days happen — trust me, I know.”
This isn’t over yet. Ronald Reagan had some bad debate days in 1984, and that didn’t exactly stop him from winning.
As for the people basically saying “tear the system down”, you sound no different than the MAGA extremists and their plans for America.
That’s because the MAGA crowd co-opted all that rhetoric. And they really ARE tearing our system down. And that’s NOT a good or promising thing.
As for replacing Biden, I’m not really sure that’s gonna happen, and I’m even less sure it would improve anything for November.
One possible alternative would be for Biden to find another running-mate this year — preferably one of the people considered best suited to replace Biden. Then everyone can be assured that if the worst happens after the election, the best possible replacement will be able to step in and hit the ground running.
The reason Biden or whichever Dem candidate might lose is because people who should vote for them are taken in by absurd right wing arguments and make those arguments for them.
The PZ Myers who acknowledges the (lack of) value of debates is also the same PZ Myers saying Biden sucked at the debate , get another candidate!. Is it any surprise that Biden is old or were you unaware of that fact before the debate?
Do you expect Biden to understand all aspect of policy or do you expect him to make good hires (Lina Khan!) and then back them . ? Yes there are a million candidates better than Biden – do they want to be President ? Can they beat Biden in a vote(Debatable, ha!) ? Can they beat Trump (?). If so whats stopping them ?
Our messaging should be uniform – Trump is unfit – We dont care about style in debates, we care about whats said and what policies – thats all that matters. Fact remains vote for trump and be prepared to have nazis, facists and the corrupt running the government v/s Biden stumbled over a few words and didnt look particularly energetic during the debate.
…if you think elections are how we stop fascism (ha!)…
Actually, elections CAN stop fascism — the 2020 election at least slowed it down, and would have done more if Democrats had done a better job earlier contesting down-ballot elections for offices like school boards, county governments, state lege, boards of elections, etc.
Deepak: I agree. Whenever anyone says Biden is going downhill, we need to immediately point out that Trump never lifted a finger to go UP that hill.
Biden stood on a stage in front of a spigot of lies and bullshit and the Left lose their minds because he was Publicly Old. Not because he rambled, not because he made major faux pas, not because he was confused, not because he misspoke. Just because he’s old.
The Right rally around a monster, we tear our movement apart because of one debate where Biden was Publicly Old.
I’m staying off the internet this weekend, fuckwitted pecking parties like this shit me to tears.
Nah. Because he was Publicly Incompetent.
[good grief! I’ve just been publicly Old, but I can fix that:
Nah. Because he was Publicly Incompetent.
Because he was Publicly Incompetent.
You’re not that shabby at the pecking, are you? :)
Does it read better than it looked?:
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/27/politics/read-biden-trump-debate-rush-transcript/index.html
Nothing brings out the worst in some of you all like the suggestion that Democrats should give people reasons to vote FOR them instead of just reasons to vote AGAINST the Republicans. The privilege of treating politics like a team sport, because you know at the end of the day who wins doesn’t affect your life in any materially relevant way, is just disgusting.
To make it clear, I still think he’s a thousand times more competent as Prez.
Just that, as someone that can argue someone else down, not quite so much.
But yeah, Biden at least can get a competent team behind him.
And at he least listens to experts.
And doesn’t put people in charge who want to destroy the thing they get to boss around.
Etc.
(Oh, and this is probably the least of it, he (Biden) cares about at least some other people)
Hemidactylus, incommensurable things.
Nothing brings out the worst in some of you all like the suggestion that Democrats should give people reasons to vote FOR them instead of just reasons to vote AGAINST the Republicans.
You really think those are two separate categories of reasons? Which reasons, in your opinion, are not both?
The privilege of treating politics like a team sport, because you know at the end of the day who wins doesn’t affect your life in any materially relevant way, is just disgusting.
Who the fuck do you think you’re talking to? Do you really think we get this argumentative about any team sport?
Rewatching it Biden seemed a little off in a way, for whatever reason, which caused his stammering to act up. There are times he gets fired up like on Roe. I think he had a serious ideational pile up at the point when he said we finally beat Medicare after stammering about COVID. He reeled from that point for a moment realizing he fucked up.
I think not feeding off a present crowd may have been a factor. And the forced empty silence due to the dead mic. He may have been deeply contemplative or not knowing where to fix his stare in an empty room. The throat clearing and coughs indicate some sort of congestion or irritation.
There are moments when he is visibly reacting with eye shifting to what BS Trump is puking up but must exercise restraint. And seriously there might be an element of disgust in having to stand so near such a contemptible goon who could very well had excessive body stench causing Biden to cough and hold back the urge to retch upon the stage multiple times. That would have rattled me.
He seemed ok in NC today. I wish he’d closed with something like this last night.
https://youtu.be/OHJoewM3WfU?t=931
Isn’t this the first time they have shared a room together in years? Biden could have been overwhelmed by a mix of horror, contempt, and rage toward that absolute scumbag next to him. He might have been perplexed by the same thought I had “WTF is this felon doing standing here with a sizable amount of support from his party?”.
Still doesn’t excuse his performance shortfalls. He should have wiped the floor with Trump given all the cumulative ammo and that whole Project 2025 thing was an untapped gold mine.
He did get some zingers in like “The only person on this stage that is a convicted felon is the man I’m looking at right now. And the fact of the matter is he is – what he’s telling you is simply not true.”, “How many billions of dollars do you owe in civil penalties for molesting a woman in public, for doing a whole range of things, of having sex with a porn star on the night – and – while your wife was pregnant? I mean, what are you talking about? You have the morals of an alley cat.”, “I was recently in – in – in France for D-Day, and I spoke to all – about those heroes that died. I went to the World War II cemetery – World War I cemetery he refused to go to. He was standing with his four-star general, and he told him – he said, I don’t want to go in there because they’re a bunch of losers and suckers. My son was not a loser. He was not a sucker. You’re the sucker. You’re the loser.”, and “The fact is that Putin is a war criminal. He’s killed thousands and thousands of people. And he has made one thing clear: He wants to re-establish what was part of the Soviet Empire. Not just a piece, he wants all of Ukraine. That’s what he wants. And then do you think he’ll stop there? Do you think he’ll stop when he – if he takes Ukraine? What do you think happens to Poland? What do you think of Belarus? What do you think happens to those NATO countries?”
He could have said each of those much better though, but still…
I’m done. Trying like hell to complete either the Express Entry or a work permit emigration to Canada before this election. In a twisted, horrible, awful way, all this validates my decision to remain closeted all these years. No one but my mother, sister, brother, and girlfriend know I’m a lesbian, and if things go really bad, it’s only by appropriating straight privilege (because gay women are all bulldykes, amirite?) that I have any chance of survival at all.
The closet is an awful place, but it’s not as awful as a concentration camp, which is where this is going. I’m all alone and doing this with virtually no support. Part of me is more than willing to die, but morally, I have to fight to the last breath. To think we’d come to this as a nation…
Another serial killer, another dead straw person.
It’s going to cost most of us a huge amount who wins the next election. Just to start off, the majority of the population who happen to be female are going lose a huge amount of the their current human rights. A nationwide abortion ban is likely.
Followed by witch hunts and prosecutions for those women who get caught getting abortions.
Deporting millions of people might well crash the economy. Those migrants they love to hate are here filling a huge number of jobs.
Attacking the school systems, universities, and health care will affect everyone as well.
During the last Trump mistake, I saw a lot of friends and family get sick from the Covid-19 virus. Some of them died. Some are seriously disabled.
My friend was found dead on her floor last July, age 60. She died from a Long Covid syndrome complication.
We know what a GOP/Trump regime will cost us. We just don’t know how and how much yet.
Hemidactylus, read comment #37.
Biden was definitely suffering from a cold.
He might also have been loaded up with cold medicines, some of which can really fog you up. Those would be some antihistamines, dextromethorphan, and codeine etc..
A cold and the usual cold medicines might effect someone a lot more who is already unsteady and Biden is 81.
Does this explain anything? We won’t know unless we see Biden again and he looks a lot more focused and aware.
Autobot Silverwynde @74
Yes. A sad series finale. It had a long run. But it may once and for all get replaced by The Apprentice: Red Caesar.
I cannot even fathom the fears Hex and Marissa van Eck have expressed here today. I too have fear. Enough to have recently renewed my passport. But I’m in no major target demographic except being left of center, Israel-critical, and concerned for marginalized groups. I’m still fearful for the future.
raven @170
I several months ago had allergies which had me in urgent care getting tested for COVID and flu. Negative on both but still miserable. I went to my old standby Claritin D, the speedball of symptom remedies. Made me feel better but turned me into more of a space cadet than y’all usually get here. So I can relate if Biden was taking some cold meds. They rock my world. Pseudoephedrine is like a precursor to meth I think. Plus the antihistamine that makes me loopy. Might explain his up and down cycles.
AugustusVerger’s spew of insults and crap about “horseshoe leftists”, whatever the fuck that’s supposed to mean, doesn’t change the simple fact that Biden’s dire performance appeared to confirm everything the Republicans have been saying about his incapacity for office. If they have any strategic sense (and they have) their TV ads will consist mainly of extracts from the debate showing Biden losing his train of thought or staring vacantly into space. I’ve said before that if I had a vote, I’d vote for him despite his enabling of genocide, because Trump back in power would be so utterly catastrophic. I still would. The question is whether he can still win, and no argument has been made here that suggests he can. The debate was supposed to be a “reset” that would show Biden as competent and Trump as deranged. I wish it had done that, but it quite obviously did not. Clearly, both getting him to withdraw, and selecting a convincing alternative candidate who can unite the party are difficult, but if the former can be achieved – probably via Jill Biden – I judge the latter a better prospect than continuing with a candidate who presented such a vivid picture of senile decline.
Beau of the Fifth Column (again) – Let’s talk about replacing Biden realities, speed, and 3 voters…. – nine minutes long.
[meta]
“horseshoe leftists”, whatever the fuck that’s supposed to mean”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
@175 John Morales
There might be a contingent of patchouli/yoga/wellness enthusiasts who dovetail with QAnon right wingers on multiple issues like vaccines.
Another dovetail exists per Ukraine for sure.
We also see enough “don’t vote for neoliberal centrists” stuff which in some forms of protest vote like for Jill Stein or RFK Jr differs little from voting for Trump in electoral outcome.
Well, maybe, for specific things. Not in general, I reckon.
I myself think it’s a silly “theory”. But it is a thing, and does mean something.
@ 18xMarissa van Eck
Trying like hell to complete either the Express Entry or a work permit emigration to Canada before this election
Best of luck. And welcome to Canada.
Don’t think being gay in Canada is easy but, admittedly, a lot of people don’t give a damn.
OOPs, forgot. In Canada being gay is normal but I do not know about the immigration process. It could e (illegally) prejudiced.
@173. KG :” I judge the latter ( replacing Biden with another candidate) a better prospect than continuing with a candidate who presented such a vivid picture of senile decline.”
Picture or reality? Biden definitely had a really bad day and performance yesterday. As others (#172 Hemidactylus, #37 & #170 raven) have already noted Biden was sick and perhaps in other lines of work, he’d have called in ill, taken the day off to recover and been fine later. Indeed, as #166 Ridana has also already noted, Biden seemed better later on. So is Biden actually that bad or was his debate performance unrepresentative, misleading and did that make him look much worse than he is?
Let’s give it time and perspective and remember how little debates (usually?) actually matter. Do we recall past debates and think they played huge roles in deciding elections? Ok, the JF Kennedy vs Nixon one, the Rick Perry “Oops!” one but a few other exceptions aside, usually, not much? Perhaps it was just one of those days where everything went wrong and Biden should perhaps have stayed home – not that that would’ve sent a good message or looked good either. If Biden’s better than he seemed in the debate, I think we have to stick with him and support him because the risk of changing now is too high.
OTOH, if Biden’s debate performanc eis actually how bad he really is -or if he’s even worse and declining fast er than the debate made him look, then yeah, there’s a huge problem and its better to change him ASAP. To help answer the question asked near the start by PZ Myers – 28 June 2024 at 8:16 am :
Well, as wellas the stuff already written by me & others TYT has this half an long discussion of Who Do YOU Want To Replace Biden? comparing and contrasting some possible options and their strenthgs and flaws.
Polls show no bounce for Trump post debate. Trump changed no minds. he is still an incompetent liar. Today, Biden gave a speech and was back to his more vigorous self. It ain’t over yet. And the right winged crazy will still be a GOP problem. It ain’t over yet. 16 Nobel prize winning economists still warn us Trump will gives us high interest rates and will crater the economy. That will just get worse.
StevoR, you’ll like the discussion(s) here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejM4o4HB2rg&t=896s
BEYOND DEBATE: PEP with Chas and Guest PEPcaster Elle Hardy (Ep 165, June 28)
14:56 – Debate Reaction
Joe Biden speaks in North Carolina.
@cheerfulcharlie
Isn’t it too early to assess the impact of the debate? Also, what matters is just the few states where just a few tens of thousands of voters changing their minds is enough to swing the election so it will need more precise polling.
What matters is Biden had a bad night. But it is obvious he is not a doddering , senile man as so many want to paint him. Biden can recover from this bad debate. Trump is still a felon, and will be sentenced for his 34 felonies July 11. The fact 16 Nobel Prize winning economists panned Trump’s economics as severely dangerous won’t be going away any time soon. Trump has few major CEOs who wholeheartedly support Trumponomics. The economy is a big issue for many. Biden has shown in North Carolina he has what it takes. Women’s issues are going to come into play. Trump will lose there. The handwringing and blubbering over the debate is ridiculous. Biden has a lot he can work with over the next few months. And September 10 the second debate is scheduled. Unless Trump is in prison. It isn’t the end of the world. And more trials to come. However, now is also time to consider who will be the Democratic candidate in 2028. Rather than moan and groan we get a lessor of two evils agains.
@172 I am absolutely terrified right now, even though I know I can keep my head down and not draw attention to myself. But I am terrified of what may happen in November.
“May you live in interesting times” is an awful curse.
John Morales@176, 178,
Thanks. I was actually aware of the term (which no more deserves the appelation “theory” than does creationism), it was AugustusVerger’s ludicrous attempt to plaster everyone who disagrees with them about Biden with the label “horseshoe leftists” I was referring to, but I should have been more specific. There are various issues on which segments of the left agree with segments of the right (e.g. Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, 9-11 conspiracy narratives, accelerationism), but the concept as generally applied is an intellectually lazy centrist trope – and it’s clear AugustusVerger is an intellectually lazy centrist.
That’s too simplistic. It’s characteristic of many aspects of aging that they can vary hugely from day to day and even hour to hour. Biden is not always a “doddering senile man”, but neither was his appearance as such at the debate any sort of illusion. And that means he has no business doing the most powerful (and one of the most demanding) jobs in the world for another four years.
To those saying “Oh, the debate doesn’t matter”, consider whether you’d been saying that if the desired outcome (Biden appearing competent and Trump deranged) had occurred.
@189: I disagree, and think that you are being way too simplistic. Biden had a bad night, he has admitted it himself (incidentally, that admission is admirable), and I do not think that he is a great orator at the best of times, but that is not the primary function of a President, even if the mass media like to pretend it is. The primary function is running the government. That happens mostly behind the scenes. And on that score Biden has been a good President. He delegates (that is a good thing), he appoints generally competent, qualified people, and during his time the country has improved, and also the country’s standing in the world. These are non-trivial achievements. Personally, I wish that Biden had become President in 2008, with Obama as his VP and successor. But I try to live in the real world.
@KG
The debate didn’t matter just as I predicted. And guess what, if Trump had done badly (not that he did well in the first place) I would have said the same because these debates have to introduce way bigger revelations to move anyone either way.
You know what’s “intellectually lazy”? Allowing panic to override your reason and going for the worst possible take out of misguided and ignorant actionism.
Biden had the sort of “bad night” someone in the early stages of serious cognitive decline would have, not one that can be shrugged off or explained away. And initially, he said he’d done well and was satisfied with his performance. Of course being an orator is not the prime function of a president, but being able to communicate effectively and reliably to the public is very important, and is crucial in winning an election. Nor is this the first occasion – although it is the most obvious – where Biden’s cognitive problems have surfaced: for example, his confused mentions of long-dead political figures Kohl and Mitterand as if they were still in power were worrying. And yes, I know Trump also has evident cognitive problems. So what? Democrats have been unable to make these a key topic in the contest in the way Republicans have for Biden.
AugustusVerger@190,
You’re basing that on what – a single poll? That’s just ludicrous. If they’ve any tactical sense, the Republicans will be including clips from the debate in every advert.
That’s not the opinion of the Biden campaign. They pressed for this unusually early debate because they thought it was needed to reset the contest in Biden’s favour.
Tht dosn’t even make sense. According to Wikipedia:
In which of those senses does advocating persuading a candidate you judge will lose a crucial election to drop out constitute “actionism”? And I note you attempt no defence of the silly “horseshoe leftists” nonsense.
I’m beginning to understand the election as a kind of trolley problem.
@expatlurker
Perhaps it can be seen as some kind of recursive trolley problem, where you have to make repeated decisions and each decision takes you on a branching path that affects which decisions you’ll be faced with later. However, also, you can’t actually see how many people are on the track ahead, so you have to make your decisions according to what you’re told, except people tell you different things, based on questionable sources of information, and some people personally benefit if certain decisions are made, regardless of how many people get run over.
Meanwhile, the clock is ticking, all the tracks are heading towards the edge of a cliff, and if you ever try to pull the break, it automatically kills every single passenger on the train, including yourself.
Yeah, that sounds about right.