It was time to venture to the movie theater to see Dune 2 last night.
It was gloriously visually beautiful, and morally complex. I had a grand time. I do have a few reservations, and they’re based more on the source material than the movie.
On the way to the theater, my wife (not a big SF fan) asked how she could tell who the good guys and the bad guys are. I answered that you’ll have no problem spotting the evil antagonists in the movie, and that is definitely true. The Harkonnens reek of cartoonish villainy throughout. It’s a whole family of slimy psychopaths, they look like it, they act like it, if we had Smell-O-Vision, they’d stink like it.
What’s trickier is that the ‘good guys’ are all gray and ambiguous, with nasty qualities that are the key conflict in the story. It’s more than rebels vs. the evil empire, it’s the protagonist wrestling throughout with his choices that will enable the darkness in his own side. The movie made one major change from the book that I appreciated: Chani was the voice of reason against fanaticism, and made the underlying conflict clear. I was definitely on Team Chani, although I also felt like Team Paul had his choices stripped from him and he had little else he could do.
Now if only we had some opposition to Team Eugenics (the Bene Gesserit) somewhere in the movie. The idea of genetic determinism was unquestioned and was simply an assumption.
Do go see it, it’s well worth the experience.
There’s talk that there may be a third Dune yet to come, which worries me a bit. There are studio executives dreaming of a franchise now, I’m sure of it, but I have to warn them that that is a path destined to lead them into madness and chaos. The sequels are weird, man. Heed Chani and shun the way towards fanaticism and corporate jihad.
Ooh, just saw this summary of the Dune series. I agree with it. I should have stopped with Dune Messiah, years ago.
The first book was published in 1963. While it may have been a new idea back then, the idea of a whole world full of people desperately wanting to overthrow and evil tyrant, but who have to wait for some naive young kid to show up from outside to actually lead them, was a ridiculous overused trope by the time I read the book in the 1980s. The whole thing struck me as nothing more than a science-fictiony version of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. The premise didn’t make a lick of sense in either book.
I kind of disagree with that, because Paul wasn’t a savior — he was more of an agent of chaos.
Also, let’s face it, Frank Herbert was never that good a writer. All that cartoonish villainy and slimy psychopathy you speak of was his idea of character development. Even a Marvel movie has more believable bad guys than that.
I read Dune and the series that followed in 1972 when I was a 19y/o Marine. The books blew me away. I usually wait till the movie is out on one of the streaming services and watch it on my big TV with surround sound. Going to the theater (like everything else) has become way too expensive. However, this is one movie I would go to the theater to see, will have check the local cinemas for available times. Then I’ll watch it again in my home. I’m certain I will see things I missed during the first viewing.
@2: That may be what he later became, but the “he’s The One” premise/setup is the same.
The thing that grabbed me in the book was Liet Kynes and that whole appendix on the ecology of Dune. I know, it’s just world-building, not a story, but that was pretty good world-building.
Dune is Lawrence of Arabia with giant worm monsters.
Though I did enjoy reading Patrick Stewart’s description of filming the original Dune movie. He talked about meeting Sting and, thanks to Patrick not really being up on then-current music he thought that Sting said he played double-bass in a policeman’s band. He said that fortunately, Sting thought that was extremely funny.
@7 microraptor — Now THAT is a great anecdote. From what I know of him, sounds like a classic Sting response. He’s a pretty good guy.
Dune is Lawrence of Arabia with giant worm monsters.
I think of Dune as the OPEC story, ten years before OPEC actually happened.
re: “Option 5” above — Jeezy Creezy, are all twenty of those books actually real?! At first glance I thought someone was just kidding about endless sequels…
I saw it last night, too.
I was not unhappy with the way that they changed the ending, having Chani become an outspoken critic of the herd stampeding toward jihad based on the manipulative lies of the Bene Jesserit. That’s a piece a lot of people tend to forget when looking at Dune: the whole mess with Paul being the mahdi is just deeply embedded propaganda. The reality is that he is the culmination of a long-term breeding experiment to produce a functioning male precog. It’s grotesque, and it works!
In the actual books, Chani is relegated to being Paul’s concubine and mother of his breeding experimentation, and Irulan his biographer and place-holder wife-only-in-name. That’s also grotesque but it’s part of the fiction that is Dune it’s not a recommendation.
I was somewhat hoping Villeneuve would put a bit of explanation around the way the sandworms can move through megatons of sand and even rock. Herbert didn’t either. Late night arguing sessions when I was in high school concluded that the worms actually produce small shielding fields at the edges of the hairs on their bodies, which repel the sand so that they can slide right through it. Bio-shielding. Why not? (that “explanation” also plays into what happens to Leto in God Emperor of Dune)
A story I heard about Dune from an academic friend of my father’s who hung out with publishers is that Herbert’s original manuscript was a gigantic mass of digressions and ruminations about his politics, technology, the future, etc. – a great big stinking mess. The publisher turned it over to a top notch editor who boiled it down into what was certainly a masterpiece of editing if not novel-writing. That also explains a phenomenon I have come to think of as “first time blockbuster syndrome” – an otherwise OK or mediocre writer signs a book deal based on that it will be edited professionally before publication. Then, it’s a huge hit. Subsequently, the author – now famous and important – negotiates creative control over their next “masterpiece”s and really unplugs the torrent of verbal diarrhea. Symptoms of first time blockbuster symptom is: a series of books that keep getting heavier and heavier and a whole lot worse.
Speaking as an Option Four (and really, I couldn’t agree more with Option Five Assessment, except to state that anyone who is actually Option Five does not in fact Love Dune Or Frank but does Love The Idea That Other People Will Think They Are Intellectual Because They Mention Dune But Have Not Actually Read Any Of The Books) I really really loved the revamped Chani and her rage against the Bene Gesserit Machine of Religious Propaganda. In the book Dune, she was basically Muad’ Dib’s Number One Fan and eventual broodmare. Boring. In Part 2, she is so kickass, both as a Fedaykin and the voice of reason. I am disappointed that both Paul and Jessica’s spice rapture experience was given such short shrift, especially since it sets up all of Paul’s choices–or lack of them–for Messiah and Children. Also disappointed at no Alia! Although Chani did seem to get most of Alia’s part/character, in the same way that Arwen basically subsumed Glorfindel in LotR. Not really a loss in the latter.
Was disappointed in the “hey, btw, we are Harkonnens, did you know” moment, which was so much more pivotal in the book. Among other things, it points out the only real difference between Paul and Feyd Rautha is their upbringing/environment and the familial moral code. Also points out how deeply complicit and amoral the Bene Dessert are. Part 2 turned Feyd Rautha into a psychopath; in the books he’s more like Paul through a mirror darkly.
Denis Villeneuve has already confirmed that he is on board for Dune Part 3, which will be Messiah. He has also stated that he will not do any more Dune films past Messiah. Also, Anya Taylor-Joy was teased in a cameo in Part 2 as Alia. I doubt her agent booked her for 5 minutes as a cameo in Part 2 if there was nothing for her in Part 3.
https://variety.com/2024/film/news/denis-villeneuve-dune-messiah-last-movie-no-dune-4-1235893013/
https://time.com/6589871/denis-villeneuve-dune-part-two-interview/
Doesn’t really happen until Heretics but Siona is kind of the start in God Emperor.
@10 Unfortunately, they are all too real. Kevin Anderson is a hack and a literary whore. They are handy if you have a wobbly table though. Or short on fireplace starter. As are most of Anderson’s books.
@9 That’s pretty much the way I saw it too, only with environmental consequences. I loved the Liet Kynes character too. LK represents the possible, with responsible leadership.
@12 Actually, that would explain a lot. I’ve read some of his other works and was not impressed. For anyone tempted to read any of his nonDune works, stay the hell away from The White Plague. No, seriously.
I never read the books, nor did I see the first film. But my father managed to get free tickets (including a free drink and popcorn) for a pre-matinee (i.e. 9:30 AM start time) yesterday, and I figured, why not? And honestly, I thought it was pretty good. The cinematography was excellent, although I do have some reservations about the CGI, which I thought was a bit over-used and occasionally unbelievable (especially with respect to the spice-harvesters…we had echos of “The Mortal Engines” in there, and that’s NOT a compliment).
I did think that the casual psychopathy of the Harkonnens was a bit much. Like, I get it, they’re evil. Whatever. But a lack of nuance in the villains is not a dealbreaker for me with respect to other stories, so I won’t hold it against Herbert. Also, I’m not sure of his allegorical intent…it does seem like he was giving us settler colonialism, but taken to a true genocidal extreme, and I’m not sure how I feel about that. Like, we get it, colonial empires are bad. You don’t have to shove it in our faces. But maybe, that kind of abject, cruel misanthropy was needed back in the 1960s to really get people to consider the evil from which they have personally benefited. Maybe it’s needed now (given how we’re seeing similar levels of cruelty playing out in real life right now).
Do I need to see Dune 1 (2021) before I see Dune 2?
I got to see it last week at an early IMAX showing and I was blown away.
Raging Bee @9: Dune was actually a science fiction retelling of the Arab Revolt of World War 1.
Marcus Ranum @12: You can see similar situations with the progression of the Harry Potter novels and the first six Star Wars films. It’s very easy to look at them and point to exactly when Rowling and Lucas got big enough that nobody could gainsay them.
Reginald Selkirk @16: Yes. This isn’t a sequel, it’s the second part of a single story, and you will definitely want to watch Dune 1 prior to watching Dune 2. I haven’t seen it yet, but I suspect it starts right where the previous movie ends. Imagine if A New Hope was split into two parts with the crew arriving at the Death Star at the end of Part 1.
My grievances with Dune:
The powerful women in the Dune are just brood mares for powerful men. They have cool body control powers, but any kind of social, political or military power comes from their husbands/consorts. Not from themselves.
Ye olde space feudalism. Farcical vermis ceremonies are no way to choose who wields executive power. Also a space faring civilization needs highly trained, well educated, skilled workers. People like that are too well educated or intelligent are not going to put up with stupid decisions from an well-bred inbred. It’s a failing of SF that there aren’t that many books out there that explores how technology impacts political systems and allow for different kinds of political systems.
I have some other points to make, but I’m tired and can’t think straight.
There are good guys and bad guys? I always thought the draw was the asymmetric powers hungry to dominate one another for completely vile reasons! The books are mostly politics and I’m not sure that can ever really be captured in film. That people pay to watch. Themselves.
I’m still waiting for Verhoeven to do Harrison’s Stainless Steel Rat.
stay the hell away from The White Plague. No, seriously.
Oh, god. Let me second that. It’s as if John Ringo wrote Lucifer’s Hammer or something. Amazingly bad.
You can see similar situations with the progression of the Harry Potter novels and the first six Star Wars films
Tom Clancy, Diana Gabaldon, JK Rowling, Neal Stephenson, James Clavell, Stephen King …
I note a contra-case which is Michael Crichton. Since he’s writing books that are squarely aimed at being optioned for movies, he keeps them, uh, “workmanlike.” There are plenty of solid writers who don’t mistake their work for art, and stick within the contracted page limits of their publishers. And some hacks.
As a curmudgeon who would give both the literary quality and concept of the original Dune a scraping-by three stars on a five-star scale,† my major objection is that post-hoc-rationalized and actively-retconned misreadings the propagandized Lawrence of Arabia legends don’t go over so well in space and higher-than-present-day tech contexts. And even less so when realizing that no can’t-read-anything-in-original-languages-so-stuck-with-colonialist-retellings adaptation of southwest Asia/north Africa is going to make sense in space either. “World-building” confined to a single aspect of the world is, umm, building a castle on particularly crumbly sand (in this instance, with sandworms burrowing underneath).
Too, there are darned good reasons that allegory essentially died as a literarily-worthwhile method in the early nineteenth century. Category fiction keeps rediscovering it and ends up sinking in the same quicksand.
† And who couldn’t refrain from throwing the first couple post-FH books against the wall, and never finished them, because they’re less internally consistent, less well-written, and more dogwhistly (politically, racially/ethnically/culturally, whatever) than classified DoD policy papers from the 70s through 90s. I’d rather read traditional-format 1L civil procedure exam answers.
The book does address the moral wrongs associated with the Bene GEsserit’s breeding program, with Paul being especially vocal on the question, starting right at the beginning with the gom jabbar scene. Herbert does build a narrative that Paul cannot find a path that doesn’t either lead to a harkonnen horror world or to Freman jihad but the argument that these are inevitable is weak with some gibber jabber about the human race needing a genetic-purpose reset of some kind. It sounds like the movie has managed to preserve this moral conflict.
My criteria for successful science fiction is whether the story manages to create an internally-logically-consistent world, regardless of how impossible that world actually is, and I think Dune manages to do this, even though the key question of “where do you get the energy from” that drives all history in developed societies is completely finessed. You can contrast Dune with say, Harry Potter, where what determines whether something is possible is whether the plot needs it right now, or say a Michael Crichton novel, where events are determined by someone who never quite understood biology or science but wants to technically accurate.
There is a version of Dune that you haven’t listed, and which provides an easy off-ramp:
National Lampoon’s Doon
Doon . . . Arruckus . . . the Dessert Planet . . .
“I must not have fun. Fun is the time-killer. Fun is for
children, customers, and the help. I will forget fun. I will take a pass
on it. And while it is going, I will turn a blind eye toward it. When
fun is gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain–I, and my will to
win. Damn, I’m good.”
Pall felt calmness return, noted with approval his re-heightened awareness
of himself and his ambitions.
Damn, I’m God, he thought
Ah yes, “Doon”! “Using her Bene Jazzrit training, she allowed herself to permit herself to detect in herself the throat-yearnings of thirst.”
Another major issue I had with the original book is that every chapter begins with a quote from what is obviously a propagandist history textbook, written by the faction who won the conflict the book is about. Which pretty much tells everyone how the story ends right from the beginning! That, plus all the mystical/pseudoscientific determinism, adds up to almost no suspense at all.
Read all the Frank Herbert Dune books and started reaidng one of the non-Herbert ones but couldn’t finish becuasue it was indeed, pretty rubbish.
I’ll also put in a good word for and reccomend The jesus Incident and The lazarus Effect despite their religious element which has a powerful a different retelling (“if they do these things in the green tree, what shall be done in the dry?”) of the whoel Jesus crucifiction mythology. The world building their with Pandora and the kelp was different and pretty intresting I think although it has been a very long time since I read them.
See : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jesus_Incident
I did read The Dosadi experiment a long time ago but have pretty much forgotten it. (Something about cloning?)
Don’t recall ever reading the White Plague one.
Did enjoy the first three Dune novels most with God Emperor being much dulelr and strnager and less enjoyable a read FWIW.
PS. Haven’t seen the new movies yet tho’ did see and like the first (?) one. Keen to watch the new ones.
I appreciate that Villenueve pushed the manufactured Messiah/puppet aspect to the forefront and while I support the change to Chani, although I wish she wasn’t the sole voice of dissent. Chani aside, the Fremen were (as with the book) treated as a monolith whose motivations were largely explained by others and who dutifully rose to the occasion when Paul pulled his cold reading stunt. Its also weird to say about a 2hr 45 minute film, but a lot of the narrative felt kinda rushed, especially early on.
Still, it got a lot right and tbh was far more than I was expecting. The door is definitely open for Dune Messiah (where I also hopped off the Dune wagon), but please no more than that. I’ve seen young James McEvoy playing a budget CGI god emperor in waiting and no sized budget is going to make that work.
…although they will have to find a way past the broodmare nonsense with Chani that I had forgotten about. Maybe not.
@3 Raging Bee
Sadly, in the real world there is also cartoonishly evil villains. E.g. Hitler, Stalin or Pol pot.
I haven’t read any of the books but I would love to see that human-worm hybrid in God Emperor in modern CGI.
Also I’ve read Herbert was partly inspired by the Oregon Dunes. I wouldn’t mind seeing those.
I read other Herbert books like The Dosadi Experiment and Whipping Star. I was not impressed and that is why I never read the first Dune novel. I read the second or maybe third, I was repelled by the ruthlessmess of everyone.
Another upcoming SF film with Adam Sandler as lonely astronaut seems oddly indifferent.
Not even the company of an alien intelligent stowaway spider (which may be a figment of his imagination) spices up the experience.
Pity, with the right treatment by the right director this could have been interesting (imagine Lem’s stories about the cosmonaut Ijon Tichy, or Pirx).
‘Spaceman’ review
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2024/mar/03/spaceman-review-adam-sandler-paul-dano-carey-mulligan-netflix
.. … …
Two words: “alien heroin”!
Dolph Lundgren, alien heroin and evil yuppies: Dark Angel is fun festive lunacy
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/dec/27/dolph-lundgren-alien-heroin-and-evil-yuppies-dark-angel-is-fun-festive-lunacy
The first novel was the best one.
You won’t waste your time by reading it.
I get what people are saying about the female characters in Herbert’s novels. They are mostly famous for which male characters they give birth to.
OTOH, the sisterhood of the Bene Gesserit are heavy hitters in the galaxy, up there with the nobles, emperor, Bene Tleilax, and the Spacer Guild, A powerful force, (wikipedia)…A powerful social, religious, and political force,
And they do all that without being notably violent and militaristic.
Speaking of Oregon dunes… I am told there are former dunes from a dry spell not that many centuries ago that were stabilised by grass growth when the rains returned. I do not recall where in USA they can be found.
I only read the first book and I have no intention to read the other ones. I like the first book and from what I have read about the rest, I am not losing on anything.
I haven’t seen the first movie and I can’t see the second one any time soon either, since there are no cinemas in my vicinity. I will have to wait for a DVD or BlueRay. I am looking forward to it though.
@40 Wikipedia (English) has an informative article about the Oregon Dunes. They are both old and still being created by sand from rivers, sculpted by high winds.
Just from the title, I thought God-Emperor of Dune was Frank Herbert’s way of telling us he was overtly selling out to endless-sequel-itis, following and exceeding John Norman’s Priest-Kings of Gor (insert poop emoji here).
After reading G-E of D, I felt the same.
In Herbert’s defense, Under Pressure struck me as pretty good (psychologically, not scientifically), and The Eyes of Heisenberg clearly deserved a Hugo for Best Title, if they had such a category.
My read of Dune (as an Option One who opted for the Wikipedia version of the rest) was that it’s an atheist’s vision of what a real Messiah would look like…and it’s not good. The horror of it all is kind of the point.
How do you get a Messiah in the first place? No pre-existing gods, so we’d have to build them ourselves. Let’s try 10K more years of biotech / pharmaceuticals / etc, plus a centuries-long eugenics program; that ought to do it. What happens when you succeed, and there are now omniscient beings in this universe? As I understand it, in most of the possible futures that Paul has access to, these Messiah-powers lead to the outright extinction of humanity; the only viable alternative is mass genocide followed by repopulation with humans that are genetically resistant to these powers. Paul ultimately can’t do it, because he became a god as an adult and there’s too much human left in him. It falls to future generations, who were gods from the get-go and had warped themselves around their inevitable destiny, to handle most of the galactic scale murder-wars.
cedrus:
Frank has you covered, there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Godmakers_(novel)
Do I vaguely remember something being mentioned in a previous thread here before about nazis having a particular fandom or association with the Dune books? I think I do..
Hmm. Some intresting analysis in this article :
https://medium.com/mosquito-ridge/is-dune-fascist-nope-but-bfd16f044234
I think.
StevoR, your credulity is not to your credit:
That’s not analysis, it’s but opinion. And weakly-founded opinion, at that.
Take the canonical material, to which that stupid opinion piece ostensibly refers:
Where does it supposedly say Paul is white?
Where does it say women are either witches or male sex toys?
Where does it say “the main villains among the elite” — as opposed to other main villains, supposedly, according to their criteria for villiany — are gay predators?
(Can’t resist: you reckon the Padishah Emperor is “depicted as [a] gay predator”?)
Where does it supposedly insinuate that support for “individual heroism and violence” are prized among men but not anyone else?
Who is supposedly sub-human in that mythos?
It is painfully evident that you do not.
(Don’t just take people’s opinions as gospel!)
As always, the waiting.
Presumably, the Gom Jabbar test.
You do get that was sub-human by Bene Gesserit standards, no?
(I mean, if you take it that literally, you really don’t want to know about the Affront in the Culture novels)
@ 46 StevoR
That Medium link was an excellent analysis, cheers.
This reminded me of a great series of blog posts about the idea that hard living conditions produce the best warriors.
@46. Dóh. Me a culpa . That article is subscrier-walled below its start. Apologies, I missed that.
Another piece here that can be read in its entirety :
Source : https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/race-consciousness-fascism-and-frank-herberts-dune/
@ 47. John Morales : “That’s not analysis, it’s but opinion. And weakly-founded opinion, at that.”
Isn’t all literary even artistic analysis mostly opinion? Art is subjective and people evebn professional critics will have different interpretations and views of it. Readers can and do take very different messages from the same book..
Numbers & formatting modified slightly for clarity of answering.
.1) Paul is a very Western name with the Atreides ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreides ) being linked tothe family of Agamemmon. (nota teribly nic eor happy family as often the case with Hellenic myths.) The actors that play Paul are, I think white. The charcetr does seem to easily fit the whole white saviour trope. Wher eiis it said or implied that paul is other than whiet which is toooften the default assumption?
.2) It doesn’t specifically say wmen aren’t other than witches or sex toys but there aren’t many memorable female charcters that can’t be summed up that way in the novel. Alia & Ghanima (Leto II’s twin sister) in the sequels maybe but even that’s a bit of a stretch esp with Ghanima also being “pre-born” & technically if memory serves both possed by ancestral .. perosnalities if that’s the word. So kinda witchy and also not so independent and strong. Note Letio II & Paul aren’t similarly “possessed” agin if that’s the right word. Irulan as narrator maybe but she’s also a secondary characetr adn defined by her aromantic but official rel’ship with Paul / Maud D’dib.
.3) Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. Main antagonist notably and villainously a homosexual man and sexual predator indeed rapist.
4) No but then he’s very much a secondary villain getting a lot less book – & I’d guess screen time – & characetr description / characterisation.
.5) Its thousands of years in the future and everything gets thrown on the line at the end for a duel with knives bewteen main characters, Fremen use SF gimmick magic snadworm teeth knives to fight. Violence is the deciding mechanism for rule and there’s a very medievial~ish duellist and world type culture witha veneer of high-tech thinly plastered over the top of it. They don’t even use blasters much at leats inthe book that I recall.. perhaps wrongly? I mena its kinda fun but more science fantasy than plausible.
.6)
.7)
.
^ Hit post instead of preview, sorry, continued
.6) Well, you mention the Gom Jabbar test yourself in #48 John Morales where the BG literally murder anyone who doesn’t pass because they don’t consider them human but rather explictly “animal” – ignoring, of course, the fact that humans are also animals too. They also breed humans like livestock with little regard for consent and people’s individual wishes.
The Fremen are oppressed by the Harkonnens and, more broadly, the whole literal Empire system and treated as at least second or less class citizens and, again, theser;s the whole hereditary leadership and aristocracy and a form class system & all that which makes for, maybe, a fun future fairy tale drama but much less for realism and a likely or positive model of a very far future existence where we have humans spread through at least a significant section of interstellar space. Then there’s the later fusion of human and sandworm and their hydridisation with Leto II’s “essence” (right word?) and yet how they remain treated later on and the intresting case of the kinda non-human but mutated human Spice Navigators (Guildsmen?) which, I dunno, quite how you’d say they fit in .. Might have to reread or see movies and think more about how exactly they do fit in here but still. Overall.. Not sure if “sub-human” is quite the right term but definitley problematic.
PS. Typing from memory and has been – at least & likely longer than – several years since I’ve read the novels though have read several times in past &, as noted upthread, only seen one of the movies that I can recall and that was the old 80’s one..See #30 & 29.
(Can’t get to sleep tho’ should as usual so anyhow..)
One other thing for me and maybe I’m wrong but the connotations / associations (Roland Barthes style*) for the titles chosen by Frank Herbert in Dune are ..intresting .. here. ‘Duke’ (Leto & family) tends to have slightly positive associations and is very English-y European whilst ‘Baron’ tends to have more negative associations (Robber Barons, Red Baron) and seem more Slavic ~ish esp paired with a very Russian / East European name e.g. Vladimir and then we have the very Persian ~Shah in the Padishah (padi – rice, initial two letters Pavo – peacock throne of Iran / constellation as well / Pahlavi dynasty of the last Persian Shah,) which to english WASP readers sounds very Oriental and foreign and unfamiliar…
Odd mix of European and Persian rnakings with Emperor as well tho’ Britain had largest ever empire with Queen
state next to South AustraliaVictoria being famously and cruelly ‘Empress of India’ in Raj ? East India Co era. So mixture (Melange! Spicy!) but with “good (?) guys” soudning more european-uish and bad guys / targets of overthorw being more Slavic / Persian / Eastern.. Hmm..Wonder how it would’ve worked if Leto had been titled Satrap or Daimyo or suchlike and the Padishah emperor had been the Royal Majesty or suchlikes?
Probly reading far too much into this but still.. word choices, impressions created?
.* See : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Barthes
I might agree with most of your post. But how does “Baron” have any kind of slavic connotations? The term is French in origin and while the title was used in Russia, it was also used in the UK, France, Italy, Germany, Hungary and other countries.
From StevoR @ # 53 & lasius @ # 54, it would seem inevitable that vampires have entered or soon will enter the Duniverse, there no doubt to straddle the feudal/fascist fine line(s).
(Always wanted to see an Indiana Jones episode set in Transylvania…)
Haven’t read any D stuff in decades, but recall suspecting that Herbert based Muad’ Dib on Muhammad (Peanut Butter Upon Him!).
StevoR @53: The Fremen (“good guys”) have a language which is largely descended from Arabic.
And ‘Padishah’ has nothing to do with rice. It means, more or less, ‘king of kings’.
@56 Grigjanis
Yes, and it is also a doublet of “pasha”.
Ah well, futile it is to try to explain further.
No worries, StevoR, you reckon the movie will be particularly appealing to white nationalists, because you read that opinion piece. First come, best served, eh?
(cf. the availability heuristic)
@ ^ John Morales : I gather from what I’ve read including on an earlier thread here (pretty sure twas? No one else recall that?) that the Dune ‘verse is already popular with some reichwingers because well, see link in #51 as well as eslewhere.
That was the top result on my google search but there were others. Thought it wa slikely the one shared here before but dunno?
@56. Rob Grigjanis
Yes, thanks but its the allusion to different cultures. Probly too much of a stretch but still curious.
Fremen also seems to be a contraction of “Free men” a sort of class in ancient England Robin Hood era..
@ lasius : True. Thanks. ‘Baron’ seems to alllude tomroe gernmanic culture perhaps becuase of some famous one s noted eg Red baron WWI flying ace. Word association..
[StevoR]
Ah well, futile it is to try to explain
furtherat all.(But I did try, to my credit)
Seriously, I could go through your feeble attempt at the enumerated rejoinders and show how vacuous and silly they are, but it would be utterly pointless.
So, sure. White supremacists’ dreams are exemplified in that movie, where an Arab-type culture wins interstellar Jihad. Or something like that, because, you know — it was an opinion you read.
—
PS
Whether or not it’s opinion, it should at least be congruous with the source material.
Anyway, for you, clearly the Dune universe is a white supremacist universe, the actual text of it be damned.
Got it.
@StevoR
To me as a German, the term is more associated with the UK, after all it still does have barons, while Germany, France or Russia don’t. And the “Red Baron” is just a nickname, he of course wasn’t a baron.
@ 61 lasius
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_von_Richthofen#Name_and_nicknames
So he wasn’t a baron – he just had a German title that doesn’t exist in English, but is best translated as “baron”.
I’m not sure that this has ever come up before, but did you know I have very little patience for fatuous hyperliteralists. Not talking about you specifically (we all know who I’m talking about) but when they haven’t got any actual arguments, they resort to absurd hyperliteralism, and nitpick about something stupid.
********************
Re # 60; laughing at the idea that something based on an Arab revolt can’t be fascist.
Not least when it’s coming from a clown who in all seriousness thinks Russia – yes fucking Russia!, the nation that obliterated fascism – can be reasonably described as “fascist”.
Gotta love your Brad the Gnome impression.
Me: “So, sure. White supremacists’ dreams are exemplified in that movie, where an Arab-type culture wins interstellar Jihad. Or something like that, because, you know — it was an opinion you read.”
VerboseBoob:
By ‘laughing’ you mean braying like a donkey, right? Because I was rather specific, and was clearly addressing what StevoR read in that opinion piece.
So, you are basically dancing the dance of the underpants gnome. It suits you fine.
Now, if you seriously, really, deliberately want to misinterpret me as somehow claiming that white supremacists can’t be fascist, then make a case. Really. Go for it!
You shan’t, because you can’t. And not just from your established cowardice.
This is the very person who has hitherto ignored at least three (3) references to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruscism and who is misrepresenting what I actually wrote, as in this very case.
“The modern use of the term can be traced back to 1995, when it was used in the context of the First Chechen War, but the use of it became more common after the Russo-Georgian and Russo-Ukrainian wars and most recently, during the Russian invasion of Ukraine.”
and
“Part of a series on Neo-fascism”
So, yes, says the person who is actually somewhat informed and who calls out your bullshit.
Are you aware of how the school curriculum and the society is being shaped, right as we speak?
Are you aware of how the state is pressuring enterprises for the war effort?
Et fucking cetera.
Yes. Russial quacks like a duck and so forth.
[OT + meta]
Yeah, I know. Run, run away after the attempted snipe.
In contrast to you, I can support my claims, Silentbob, and I don’t run away.
Here:
https://novayagazeta.eu/articles/2023/08/11/going-down-in-history-en
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-29/russia-may-extend-wartime-capital-control-measures-indefinitely
@60. John Morales :
No you haven’t. I’m taklking about the books and wider Dune idea fandom thing NOT the movie and tits NOT my view its something that people ahev observed NOT how Ipersonally see it.
StevoR, I haven’t got it?
In the post about the movie, the second one, even. Got it.
So you personally don’t think that, yourself. You merely claim others have observed it.
Well, clearly it’s also not (NOT) how I personally see it, either.
You brought it up, I disputed it, and now you say you yourself don’t believe it.
(So… why?)
I already noted I haven’t seen the movies and so I haven’t judged for myself whether they come across as having fascist sympathies or pro-fascist allusions or whatever.
The point of what I’m saying here is that there is / has been a strong white Supremacist / alt-reich fanbase for this franchise with them seeing echoes of their ideology in some of its themes and plotlines.
(No one else remember when this was discussed before? Am I really the only one? Sure I didn’t dream it..)
Personally I really enjoyed the Dune novels (the Herbert ones) esp the first three and thought they were a good space opera series with some wonderful and thought-provoking world building and ecology in them. Saw them as entertainment – like but much more serious in tone than Star Wars. Also liked that he’d picked a real star name Arrakis (Mu Draconis) for the system – although apparently later Dune got relocated to Canopus.
@58. JM :
I don’t know whether White nationalists will enjoy the movie or not since I haven’t seen it. I hope it deeply disappoints and upsets them. However, I understand from what I’ve read online incl here that many white nationalists are already fans of the Dune books & ‘verse because they (rightly or wrongly) find elements of it appealing to them specifically those noted in the first paragraph cited in my #46.
(Plus other thigs like eugenics and breeding programs actually working and ancestral consciousness giving some of its fictional villains like Baron Vladimir Harkonnen and odd form of immortality. As well as the same applying to the mythical (?) King Agammemnon inside the minds of one of the Atreides.)
@ 61. lasius : Fair enough. There is, of course, also Baron Münchhausen :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Munchausen
The far less familar to english readers Baron d’Holbach :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_d%27Holbach
Plus obviously Baron Davis :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Davis
;-)
A lotta barons and yeah, okay widespread in European nations.
Then there’s the American Baron Trump and here’s hoping that doesn’t become a dynastic hereditary ruler title!*
On the appearance of ancestral mmory Agamemnon in Dune see :
https://literature.stackexchange.com/questions/15427/how-relevant-is-the-atreides-link-to-agamemnon-in-dune
As well as : https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Agamemnon
Plus : https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Pre-born
I distinctly remembering reading the line in one of the Dune sequels – think ’twas Children – “I Agamemnon you ancestor demand your attention!” which certainly got mine but haven’t got time to go through the book and find it to quote page number, etc, now..
.* Riffing off Catch22‘s Major Major Major character it would be kind a funny if some how Trump’s youngest son somehow got a Baronet and became Baron Baron..
Shame about the ableist slur in Option 5 of the graphic.
Thinking Dune and people’s wishes and reactions and authors intent here’s a second opinion / analysis :
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2020/10/11/paul-atreides-led-a-jihad-not-a-crusade-heres-why-that-matters
This time referencing the latest movies and noting the ‘Rakis ‘verse’s pro- or at least not anti- and valuing islam approach :
Also from that AJ article :
So various people see the Dune ‘verse in various ways and interpret it differently. Quelle surprise!
FWIW, I have now seen these latest Dune movies – both parts 1 & part II – today & highly recommend it!
Spectacular and thought-provoking and I think PZ was spot on in the OP here. I also loved what the did with Chani in this version too.