We’re in the countdown phase: newspapers are now reporting estimates of the number of hours of oxygen left in the device. That’s like estimating the degree of misery and suffering five people might currently be experiencing on the basis of practically no information.
It’s fairly roomy for a crypt
The tourist submersible that went missing while exploring the Titanic wreck was previously the target of safety complaints from an employee of OceanGate, the parent company that owns the sub and runs tourist expeditions of the wreck. That employee complained specifically that the sub was not capable of descending to such extreme depths before he was fired.
That’s according to legal documents obtained by The New Republic. According to the court documents, in a 2018 case, OceanGate employee David Lochridge, a submersible pilot, voiced concerns about the safety of the sub. According to a press release, Lochridge was director of marine operations at the time, “responsible for the safety of all crew and clients.”
I’ll make two bold predictions: 1) the submersible and its occupants are the victims of a catastrophic implosion. 2) Hoo boy, the lawsuits that are about to land on OceanGate means that company will catastrophically cease to exist.
Lets take a sub called Titan to the wreck of Titanic. What could possibly go wrong?
Person voices safety concerns and is fired. Something something Challenger…
You haven’t heard about the banging noises detected or don’t think that’s the sub then PZ?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-21/underwater-noises-reported-in-search-for-missing-submersible/102505782
OT but speaking of sinking ships…thanks to ProPublica there’s another Supreme Court justice in trouble for failing to report a $100k airplane ride on a billionaire’s private jet to go fishing in Alaska. This time it’s one of our favorite conservatives, Joseph Alito. And a different billionaire, Paul Singer, who has had multiple cases before the court. Of course, Alito did not recuse himself. I haven’t seen it yet, but apparently Alito was contacted by ProPublica for comment so instead he scoops them and writes a piece for the New York Times. I bet it’s a winner.
I’ve decide that “RNC” stands for Repulsive National Crooks, and remember “Conservative” always begins with a “con”.
If the occupants are indeed dead, and the cause was corner-cutting by the company, I hope its directors will be charged with manslaughter. Given that the passengers were from the very rich class, it might even happen.
Another reason OceanGate will likely cease to exist is that its founder and CEO Stockton Rush was the pilot on this ill-fated voyage.
I would not willingly get into a vehicle that required someone outside the craft to let me out again. I know you need some serious hatch integrity, those seals have to hold under tremendous pressure, and you don’t want any Gus Grissom incidents with the hatch being blown prematurely, but holy crap…
People who think the universe was made for mankind don’t understand how little of our own planet is amenable to our particular form of life, to say nothing of conditions away from Earth.
Lawsuits will be the least of their problems. As KG says, if this report is correct then the executives could be charged with manslaughter.
1) I’ve been thinking this same thing since the start.
2) It can’t happen soon enough.
3) WHO THE HELL THOUGHT TOURING THE WRECKAGE OF THE TITANIC WAS A GOOD IDEA.
@7–
Yes indeed. Humans are adapted to middle latitudes of Earth and from sea level to about 5 km elevation. With simple technology like furs and hunting tools we can extend the latitudes to the Arctic and Antarctic circles. Everywhere else requires significant technology to survive long term. As you say, our habitable space is a small sliver of our home planet let alone the universe.
Chrislawson @ 10
…and we cannot hold our breath for long, nor can we dive deep without risk of having nitrogen form bubbles blocking small blood vessels on the return.
Just “uplift” the seals and whales, and outsource the underseas work to them.
Given the grifting culture and the evidence so far what are the odds someone tries to offer this without testing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethylamine_N-oxide
“TMAO is found in the tissues of marine crustaceans and marine fish, where it prevents water pressure from distorting proteins and thus killing the animal. The concentration of TMAO increases with the depth at which the animal lives; TMAO is found in high concentrations in the deepest-living described fish species, Pseudoliparis swirei, which was found in the Mariana Trench, at a recorded depth of 8,076 m (26,496 ft).[1][2]”
Because when your richer than the dreams of avarice, what else is left in life to fulfill you?
(This assumes a pathological lack of imagination, of course.)
The idea of paying the Roskosmos for flying you to the Moon and back (in an elongated ellipse, like the 1970s Zond craft) looks like a safer way for a millionaire to brag-use his money.
@StevoR — the banging noises are either nothing at all, or if they are related to the sub, are just little pieces of the wreck continuing to crinkle as various pieces crush more. Overwhelmingly likely scenario: they were crushed like an empty beer can.
Carbon fiber: not the world’s most reliable material, and repeatedly stress cycling the stuff is a bad idea. And the mere suggestion of voids or layup sloppiness in the carbon fiber construction would be enough for me to nope out of ever using that particular sub.
That sub and the remains of its unfortunate occupants will henceforward be a grim landmark for future tourists to the Titanic at the bottom of the ocean in much the same way as the freeze-dried corpses lining the summit trail to Mt. Everest.
In some kinds of water, human corpses can be preserved. This is the case of a wreck in one of the great lakes.
The ocean floor is another matter. Even bones eventually disappear. I assume the calcium is dissolved.
If you could tow a sonar array underneath the termocline, you could build up a very detailed synthetic aperture image of the sea floor. You might even be able to retrieve the wreck and the bodies.
We’ll this is a thing. A number of billionaires and dependents volunteered to go to the bottom of the sea in a steel sinking coffin after paying $250k a pop. It ended poorly and giant rescue operation and media circus followed. Meanwhile almost at the same time hundreds of poor migrants die drowned in the Mediterranean after the Greek coastguard couldn’t bother to respond to their distress calls. Barely worthy of a headline.
It’s really telling how class and race determine whether you get rights and personhood status or the press even bother to cover your story.
By the way I can already tell you how the submarine story ends: they’re dead and their remains won’t ever be recovered.
The company won’t catastrophically cease to exist. After all, one of the pharma companies that got nailed for opioid hawking damages is filing bankruptcy to seek to have the damages that were awarded discharged by the bankruptcy court, while the corporate officers receive their record bonuses and employees get stiffed.
The sub was carbon fiber and titanium (not sure which alloy, but based upon what we’ve been reading so far, it’s likely to be cheaper in type and entirely inappropriate for the task). The viewport is rated for 1/3 of the task’s depth, Rush refused to pay for the custom viewport that was rated for that depth.
‘In the article, Rush is described as having said the U.S. Passenger Vessel Safety Act of 1993 “needlessly prioritized passenger safety over commercial innovation”.’
Another Libertarian earns a Darwin Award.
I miss the old days, when commercial innovation wasn’t fatal innovation and relabeled progress.
Marine group says 10 subs in the world can dive to Titanic depths. Titan is the only one not certified
Another reason OceanGate will likely cease to exist is that its founder and CEO Stockton Rush was the pilot on this ill-fated voyage.
If they’re stuck down there, intact but running out of oxygen, the passengers could kill Rush to make their oxygen last longer. It would certainly be a fair and fitting end for a CEO who so knowingly disregarded basic safety warnings in the name of “innovation.” Hell, he deserves it more than the captain of the Titanic.
@15 For some reason I thought of this scene from “On the beach”. I read somewhere that the tapping noises occur every half hour, if true then they’re probably alive. Given that, I don’t think another sub is going to get there, much less affect a rescue, before they run out of oxygen.
Reginald Selkirk @ 20, not quite accurate. Only 10 subs can dive to that depth and survive. All can dive to that depth, if one ignores that entire crush and die thing. ;)
gijoel @ 22, they’ve heard noises, but the ocean is a noisy place to begin with, with odd sound channels that can make distant things seem close and vice versa. Add in things like cyclical currents and eddies, that knocking could be a crew in distress, some shrimp fucking or some object on the wreck occasionally knocking about in the current. Given the inability to locate the source, for all we know it’s Ahab’s arm slapping on Moby Dick’s side.
I remember the Kursk sinking, reports said knocking was heard, but it was later found that when that knocking was allegedly heard, the crew was long dead.
“OceanGate:” the scandal was pre-named.
gijoel: “Effecting a rescue” would mean lifting the sub all the way back up to the surface. How long would THAT take?
@15. Dr. Pablito : “@StevoR — the banging noises are either nothing at all, or if they are related to the sub, are just little pieces of the wreck continuing to crinkle as various pieces crush more. Overwhelmingly likely scenario: they were crushed like an empty beer can.”
Ah. Even with the regularity in timing? I expect you’re probly right but. Thanks.
birgerjohansson @16
Actually there are things down there that eat bones, such as worms of genus Osedax. They are usually found eating whales, but I’m sure they’ll eat a human.
I agree that they probably won’t find the bodies, and they’ll eventually disappear, but I don’t get enough chances to talk about cool worms
@18. Luftritter
Yes, yes it is.
Source : https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-15/dozens-killed-in-greece-s-deadliest-migrant-shipwreck-this-year/102481088
Whilst in today’s news, well, seen it today in my case anyhow :
Which is the (kinda) good news we didn’t hear much about but buried further down in that report :
Source : https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-18/philippine-ferry-carrying-120-catches-fire/102493942
At least one media outlet – NBC – has noted the disparity in coverage and attention here :
Source : https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/syria-migrants-boat-sinking-titanic-submersive-missing-rcna90336
Although its an article I had to find by searching for.. & you gotta wonder what they plan to do about it?
@ ^ Note from that last article that the rescued Refugees from the shuiopwreck off Greece were (are?) being housed in warehouse after their traumatic ordeal. Reckon they’ll make the billionaires on their ‘Titanic’ tour do that in the very unlikely event they get rescued here?
@27. dangerousbeans : You beat me to it. Also a lot of strange deep sea fish there that I’m sure would consume the remains too. Tangentail but since you raised cool ocean worms have you seen this 10 min clip on how worms ended the Ediacaran and changed the world for good by PBS Eons here?
@23. wzrd1 :
Fair points there too, thanks.
here’s a thought experiment for you:
Based on the fact that the CEO was a self proclaimed “libertarian”, and so were most of his supposed guests at the time.
…and the fact that apparently there was no official report of the sub missing from the surface operation until 11 hours AFTER it lost communication.
What if this entire thing is just an elaborate “fake your own death” scheme?
after all, they don’t even EXPECT to find the sub, ever. It’s a pretty good scheme if you want to make a clean break with your old life. None of the individual participants are famous enough to warrant attention, but they all have plenty of money to disappear if they want…
““Effecting a rescue” would mean lifting the sub all the way back up to the surface. How long would THAT take?”
about 3 hours according to an interview with a rear admiral today I read.
but what if they aren’t dead. what if they even left on the sub to begin with?
er, NEVER left on the sub to begin with, I mean.
@11
“Just “uplift” the seals and whales, and outsource the underseas work to them.”
wasn’t that the plot to one of Willard Price’s “Hunt family” adventure books?
@1. Erlend Meyer : “Lets take a sub called Titan to the wreck of Titanic. What could possibly go wrong?”
Most inaccurate name given the size of the sub too – unless it refers to the billioniares ego maybe?
In an odd and eerie piece of ‘Titanic’ lore, there ‘s also a fictional liner named ‘Titan’ that was described as being the the longest and fastest ship in the world and unsinkable. So, guess it what it goes full speed into the fiog and hits a .. another ship and sinks it. Oh and then the next night it hits an iceberg and sinks killing most on board. Some intresting paralells but sadly quite anti-Semitic see :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wreck_of_the_Titan:_Or,_Futility
StevoR:
Has it occurred to you that maybe (just maybe) it’s called that because it was used to visit the Titanic?
Should have been called “Tit” then and not Titan because it is still innacurate, like ironically nicknaming a skinny guy Fats . Titanic was the biggest ship of its type in the world. Could have been called Gigantic, Majestic or Olympic and it would have still fit due to size of the vessel. This is just puny for the name Titan.
That anyone has the misapprehension that vessels are invariably named after some aspect of their nature lest they be misnamed is remarkable.
Anyway. In this case, the Titan was on its way to the Titanic (again) when this unfortunate tragedy struck.
Well, tragedy to some, boon to others, who have already quaffed deep from the draught of schadenfreude.
@29 StevoR
Yeah, that’s really cool. Such a large effect from messing up the bacterial mats
I bet the crabs would also enjoy the snacks too
I assume all the “man should not venture where he cannot survive” crew in this thread have never flown on an airliner.
airliners have vast networks of redundancies and safety checks.
ironically, those would have “stymied” the development of this boat, according to the guy who supposedly is captaining it as I write this. Or is squished into a broad pancake. or is on a tropical beach somewhere.
“That anyone has the misapprehension that vessels are invariably named after some aspect of their nature lest they be misnamed is remarkable.”
You know, just because you are you, I decided to look up where the Titanic got its name from.
The irony is palpable.
Ichthyic, are you under the impression that I expressed the opposite of what I expressed? I think so.
Kinda adorable you had to look up the origin of the name just then. :)
(BTW, the LOUISA SCHULTE Container Ship is expected to arrive in Brisbane soon)
Heh heh heh.
@ 40 Ichthyic
Gee, I wonder what
could have inspired
this “vast network”. (Spoiler: accidents)
Lest I be misunderstood; I do not defend rich people visiting the Titanic.
I just laugh at the Luddism of the opinion that humans must keep to their prescribed domain.
@33. Ichthyic : Sounds to me like David Brin’s Uplift series FWIW :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uplift_Universe
Article here on well, what it says in the title ‘How likely is it that the noises detected are coming from inside OceanGate’s missing Titanic tourist submersible?’ :
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-22/explainer-noises-detected-oceangate-titanic-submersible/102509268
Hours away frombeing a moot question anyhow given they’re oxygen will be out very soon..
@ ^ Yeah I know, that should be “their” not “they’re” there.
ABC news also has this live thread :
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-22/search-for-missing-titanic-submersible-live-updates/102509368
Covering all the latest news and morbid questions in case folks are interested. Certanly didn’t have that for any refugee ships in third world nations sinking or going missing did they?
StevoR:
Certainly were not in a submersible visiting a sunken ship, either.
(More prosaically, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_bites_dog )
@ 47 Morales
Weird that you’d respond to a comment about how the media ignore some tragedies, with a link explaining that the media ignore some tragedies, as though that’s a refutation. (?)
StevoR was not expressing puzzlement at refugees being ignored, but lamenting that it is so.
@35. John Morales : “Has it occurred to you that maybe (just maybe) it’s called that because it was used to visit the Titanic?”
Yes but then the Titanic got its name from being a huge ship for the time whereas this sub was tiny as well as dangerous and violating safety laws and precautions.
@36. jo1storm :
Yup. Somehow your suggestion reminds me of what Musk would likely name it with his juvenile humour using same rationale. You probly already know that the original tuerned out to be very sinkable RMS Titanic had two sister ships named ‘Olympic’ and one they were going to name ‘Gigantic’ but post 1912 iceberg disaster changed to the Britannic instead. Two out of these three ships sank killing at least some of their passengers and crew albeit the Britannic hit a mine during wartime use as a troop or hospital ship and the Olympic had a pretty troubled history too.
@38. dangerousbeans : Glad you liked it! FWIW whilst pelnty of otehrcritetrs no doubt enjoyed the ancks, there were no true crabs back then although in another tangent here :
https://www.popsci.com/story/animals/why-everything-becomes-crab-meme-carcinization/
.* Wonder if that would fly – so to speak – today with the IOC super-controlling super-jealous copyright claims?
It’s not a refutation, Silentbob; it’s concurrence.
I’m noting the prosaic reason why.
(I reckon StevoR is old enough to remember “children overboard”; that got news coverage)
@49 That’s the point. Big ships get big names. Glad you got my references.
This guy does a pretty good breakdown of all the Titan’s many flaws.
Three words uttered by the Oceangate CEO sum up their chances: “Safety is waste.” He actually took and espoused the view that “nothing has happened before, so nothing will happen!” and that redundant safety systems aren’t necessary.
I assume all the “man should not venture where he cannot survive” crew in this thread have never flown on an airliner.
No such “crew” exists, so you can assume whatever you want about them.
Just “uplift” the seals and whales, and outsource the underseas work to them.
Just don’t uplift them too much, or they’ll get uppity and form a union. And if there’s anything worse than sea-lions, it’s UNIONIZED sea-lions!
Ichthyic @30: Your “fake their own death” scenario sounds intriguing and kinda plausible. I presume the sub would dive as planned, and go down part-way toward the wreck, at least enough to send back realistic signals to that effect. Then, after “losing” contact with the surface, the sub would have to come back up and intercept, or be intercepted by, another surface ship — one that had both the means to catch the sub and offload its occupants, and a plausible “cover-reason” to be there; and they’d have to make contact with no telltale signals being emitted by either vessel. Then, after getting everyone out of the sub, they’d have to scuttle it in deep ocean well outside of the anticipated search radius. My question then is, how many people would have to knowingly participate in such a conspiracy, and how much money would be needed to ensure their permanent silence? And would any of those posh twits (let alone all of them at once) really derive a benefit from faking their own deaths that exceeds the cost and sacrifices of making it work? We’d have to do a deep dive (pardon the pun) into all of their business dealings to find any possible motive for such an elaborate and laborious plot.
@50. John Morales : “.. I reckon StevoR is old enough to remember “children overboard”; that got news coverage.”
Yes it did as did the whole Tampa govt military piracy of a ship trying to help refugees.
It got huge media coverage as a political story about our pliticans using lies, force and brute power against vulnerable brown -skinned people for their own political expediency torturing, lying about and demonising those human individuals (same as me, you and everyone here but the bots but for luck of birth and circumstances) because they could.
They still getting away with it now.
So, thanks I guess for noting that?
What the “Children overboard” and Tampa and other refugee ships sinking killing a lot more than just 5 people stories didn’t get of course was live, tense, hopeful, empathetic human survival story headline coverage and massive, public attention on their victims and survivors and suffering and torment as and during they died so.. yeah?.
Oh and the lies that refugees threw their children off sinking ships as if staying and clinging onto ships as they sink taking you and them down to drwon and die horribly is a good idea .. yeah.
I remember that very well.
DW news : Yup. The titsn 5 are cactus clearly :.
https://www.dw.com/en/titanic-sub-debris-found-in-search-evaluation-underway/a-65996731
@54 Raging Bee remarked about: “man should not venture where he cannot survive” crew in this thread have never flown on an airliner.
I reply: obviously, if ‘man’ were intended to fly, they would have all been born with lifetime free passes on Pan Am! /s
@60 StevoR pointed out the debris field has been found
I reply: Oh, great another titan(ic) disaster strewing pollution on the sea floor! /s
Yet, in accordance with sensitivity shown by StevoR and others that I agree with, yes, it is sad they all died. But, their arrogance was a major contributing cause. As documented on this site and elsewhere, it was a terribly, poorly designed ‘disaster waiting to happen’ and some of those on board did not bother to find out how truly dangerous it was.
birgerjohansson@17
If the submersible suffered a catastrophic implosion (which I egree seems likely), there might not be recoverable remains.
Apparently, a debris field was found on the sea floor near the Titanic by an ROV.
What’s notable is, the USCG reported that debris field, which is within the Titanic debris field. That suggests something of note observed that distinguished it from the much older ocean liner’s debris field.
I suspect that that may well be what remains of the sub. Most likely scenario being a failure of the ridiculously underspecification viewport, which imploded. Such a failure would be in excess of looking down the muzzle of a cannon while it was fired for the passengers, anything torn loose by the slug of water entering acting as projectiles upon the craft and occupants, the sudden mass entry rebounding on the interior of the hull, essentially shredding it.
Basically, they’d have been lucky to realize something was amiss before they knew nothing whatsoever, as unlike Hollywood, such failures are instantaneous, making even high speed films/videos challenging.
The “every 30 minutes banging”, either random oceanic noise and the ocean is a noisy place or random component failures to the pressure and a human desire to find patterns in randomness.
It’s just a shame that that kid had to get dragged into the debacle.
Apparently, there are a number of groups who organized to offer certification of vessels and operations for deep sea operations and internally, there was concern for this company and CEO, basically predicting a disaster involving OceanGate and potential deleterious impact upon their sensible members. Since OceanGate declined certification or membership.
Basically, like many professions, self-regulating, alas, without such being mandatory by their hosting and members nations.
OceanGate announced that the vessel’s occupants are believed to be dead. Likely, they reviewed the debris field the USCG was examining and issued the statement.
Landing skids and rear cover, the part that looks like a beak found.
They suggest implosion, which I agree, but if the viewport imploded, the pressure wave entering, followed by a massive slug of water would rebound within the pressure hull. That would fail, as the stresses are entirely opposite what the vessel was designed to withstand and contain. It’d likely tear the vessel apart.
Oh. Okay. So much for the “faked their own death” thought-exercise…