In a disgraceful act of cowardice and hatred, fanatics murdered at least 12 members of the staff of the French satire magazine, Charlie Hebdo. I don’t hesitate to call this cowardice; the gunmen faced no real threat, killed people, and then ran away. They seemed to think this was a triumph of some sort.
In the video, the gunmen can be heard shouting “Allahu akbar” between bursts of gunfire. The gunmen also shouted “we have avenged the prophet,” according to police.
All they have accomplished is to inspire revulsion and further taint their religion with the slime of zealotry…and to make people more aware of the ridicule the dead had heaped on their principles…and this action has confirmed that Charlie Hebdo was right. Good work, guys.
Furthermore, they’ve done their own people great harm. The majority of Muslims do not condone terrorism, but terrorism committed in their name will be used by the fascists and anti-immigrants and just-plain bigots to justify persecution of Muslims. All Muslims. Without discriminating between those who condemn and those who applaud.
But I do have to criticize one thing. Read this collection of Muslims repudiating the murders. That’s good, and I think the majority of Muslims will concur that these acts were wrong.
But a lot of them declare that the killings were “un-Islamic”. No, the killers probably think of themselves as deeply Islamic; there is nothing un-Islamic about killing others, just as there is nothing un-Christian about denouncing gays or sending drones to blow up Muslim wedding parties. Let’s all just recognize that religion is a muddled, incoherent mess that allows good people to find rationalizations for doing good and bad people to find rationalizations for doing bad. And the three cowards who shot up the offices of Charlie Hebdo were just as Muslim as the good people who denounce religiously-motivated murder.
But when your version of your god requires that you shoot cartoonists, I think you’ve lost — that’s the kind of action that will drive Muslims away from your fanaticism, and that will make violent Islamicism an object of universal contempt. The cartoons win.
Aaaaaand comment #500 is a simple but well-deserved “shove it up your self-righteous ass.” Coooooooongratulations, sharkface, a winner is you! Come on down and claim your prize!
I don’t give two shits what saddens you, Tony. You can die too if you like; no skin off my nose. I await the day all the stupid people and all the evil people blow themselves up or poison themselves or whatever and the remnant of us can get on with trying to rebuild the shattered wreck of a world we’ll be left with. History will remember you stupid fucking useful idiots for what you are…if history there is after the dunghill hits the windmill.
Azuma Huzaki
Monitor Note
Calling for other people to die is against the community standards.
Yeah, alert sent.
awesome.
shall we call that your flounce then?
do you mind if I copy a bit from your other recent posts to pad it out? makes for better copy.
seriously, that was pretty good, if a little short on the burn. not quite “Starfart” territory in verbiage, but the sentiment comes through very well.
FWIW, if you take a break and come back in a week or two, nobody will likely remember much of what you said, and you can start saying it all over again!
It appears that the terrorists have been located and they have a hostage.
@(50)3: You can cry too. If you think my wishing stupid people would stop stealing oxygen and start fixing nitrogen is so horrible, then dear tray-fulla-cupcakes, you are too sensitive for the internet.
@(50)4: What part of “fuck off” do you not understand? What part of “you are a useful idiot” escapes your grasp? These are not difficult concepts, except to those who choose to make them so.
You know, since you’re the one screaming at people to die for the crime of disagreeing with you, maybe it’s not us who are too sensitive to be on the internet…
so, I’ve linked up a couple of your flame bursts, so it covers 3 people (including myself – joyyy!)
can I call this your official flounce?
together, I think they would get a score of 8/10, with the startfart being a 10.
how’s this then:
Azuma:
What is wrong with you that you’d wish for others to die?
epic. I’m gonna add that on the end, m’kay?
I’m thinking it’s a defensive reaction, but whatever the issues are that she’s currently deflecting with, this isn’t the place or the time to discuss them.
this is the time for flouncing.
Azuma:
That fuck off works both ways. You’re an utterly vile human being with little empathy for others, who wishes harm upon other human beings for no other reason than “waaah, they disagree with me”.
Ironic then that you said this:
None of us are calling for Muslims to be denied entry to the U.S.
None of us are calling for people to die.
These are things YOU’VE done. That hate. That bigotry. That evil.
That’s all YOU. If you’re hoping for all the stupid evil people of the world to die, then you’re wishing for your own death as well.
Incidentally, this:
is simply not true. It has nothing to do with sensitivity and everything to do with not wishing for harm to come to others. I guess deism isn’t big on empathy.
Tony @509
Obviously, you’re using too much oxygen and not fixing enough nitrogen. I probably am, too. Duh.
I am a legume, hear me roar.
@(50)9: Out of patience with stupid. Seen too many good people suffer and die, or worse, suffer and not be able to die, because of stupid. Don’t see any improvement on the horizon. Stupid’s taking over my country. Stupid’s very likely gonna cause the end of civilization. That’s what’s motherfucking “wrong” with me, you asshole: I’ve been shattered by too much pain, my own and others’. I’m out of patience with the whole idiot game.
@(5)10: Why, pray tell, do you think I care what you think? So long as I’m burning bridges, know what I wish you’d do too? That’s right. Die. Do your part to feed all the squirming things, especially the ones what can’t be seen without a decent microscope. It’ll be the most useful thing you do all month.
I don’t think this has much to do with deism, frankly.
yeah? maybe stop digging that hole your in then?
guess what “cupcake”? that’s true everywhere. I’ve been around, I’ve seen it. STILL DOES NOT GIVE YOU ANY EXCUSE.
Because you are still here, still typing, still being a total ass.
…and if you’re feeling all suicidal, which I get serious warming alarms that you are, don’t you even TRY to play that it’s our fault for why you feel the way you do.
embrace your own goddamn issues.
@(5)19: Suicidal? Not fucking likely, fish-face. I’ve got too many people what need a kick in the fork with a steel-toed work boot before that, and two other people whose lives are indirectly riding on mine. I’m not going anywhere any time soon. I spent 2/3 of my life suicidal and finally decided to have a little self-respect.
@489 Azuma
We already knew you were an awful human being, but thanks for confirming beyond any possible doubt that we are fully justified in despising you. What a piece of shit…fuck off…
PS: You might have noticed that even though your existence repulses me i still would never fantasize about you suffering eternal torture or tell you to die for your disgusting opinions.
Oh, and again, fuck off. No really, FUCK OFF.
@(5)21: Just to piss you off, no :) Eat yer liver! (And you’re hardly worth this, but based on my study of koine Greek and the beliefs of the early Church fathers, I don’t think eternal torture was the original conception of hell; rather, torment proportional to one’s sins, followed by annihilation, cf. “Gehenna”).
It probably has never crossed her mind that there are people depending on those she wants to die, too. Because really, young children losing their parent would be a really good thing. The kids probably deserve it…
But honey, sweety, my lovely cupcake of pure love….you ARE one of the stupid, evil people….in your psychopathic fantasy, you are not around to rebuild shit because you blew up or poisoned yourself along with the rest of the awful.
I know in that most frightening place you call a mind you are the good one, but seriously, all we’ve done is call you out on your disgusting, irrational, extreme bigotry, while you….well…..you’ve wished every possible evil on people you just don’t like. There is absolutely no chance you’d survive your fantasy purge. Mind you, as far as fantasies go, it would be pretty poetic to see thousands upon thousands of muslims contributing to rebuild the world after you, along with the rest of evil were gone…
@(5)24: That’s nice, sweetie…be sure and clean up after yourself when you’re done *patpat* And if you think the inside of my mind is a frightening place, you haven’t seen anything yet. It’s all butterflies and flowers and sunshine compared to the people I’m thinking of. It’s odd how naive the commentariat here is, especially considering some of the awful things I know some of them have been through.
@22 Azuma
Ah yes, not eternal torture then, just torture and annihilation for the terrible sin of not buying your racist shit…you sure showed me!!
When PZ bans you for being your delightful self, do us all a favour and please, keep being just as delightful somewhere else while talking fondly of us, so that people know how awful we were to such a lovely, pure flower. In other words, please talk shit about us, coming from a deranged arsehole like you it will make us look fucking glorious.
I am wondering how Azuma seems to be failing to grasp the idea that wanting people to die kinda makes them a *bad* person..
Monitor note sent about Azuma Hazuki wishing death on other commenters.
@(5)26: You know, I don’t actually believe that Hell exists. This is what we in the adult world call a figure of speech. And I don’t need to say anything; this place has a very, very bad reputation that casts an extremely long shadow. Believe me, nothing I say can be more damaging than what’s already out there, and I don’t intend to waste the electrons.
@(5)27: There are far, far worse things than death. You’re all atheists, right? You don’t believe in anything after death. When death is come, you are not, etc etc etc. If you think it makes me a bad person, well, sorry* you feel that way. Death is very often the best thing that can happen to someone who’s suffering beyond a certain point…
*not sorry
Rowan
It’s kind of the skulls on the caps. They sort of give you away. You should really ask yourself Are we the baddies?
Azuma Hazuki @ 501:
Wrong.
You may wish to consider the idea that, if everybody is reacting to you in a similar fashion, it might not be them. It might be you.
I am sincerely glad that you are not suicidal, though I don’t much like the implication that self-respect is the cure for suicidal thought.
This is a thoughtful group here, well worth listening to; I have learned much here by shutting up and listening. You are doing yourself a disservice by dismissing their ideas.
Even though you are not answering my post in good faith, Azuma, I will.
Death saddens me. Every time a life is cut short, when death is not a release from suffering or fatigue, it hurts. Even when death is a kindness, it is still immensely sad because you’re right… we atheists believe that’s the end.
I will never, ever, see my great grandparents nor my grandfathers again. They are forever gone.
To actively wish to cut short the life of another human being makes you a bad person. You are wanting to remove from them, and them from, all possible futures. That is not a choice you get to make. I am my own person. If you kill me, you are a bad person. If you wish me dead, you are a bad person. It’s not mere ‘thinking’ you are a bad person. You plain, simply, ARE a bad person if you want people to die.
@5(32): I would happily take death over some of what I’ve been through. Logically speaking, if you atheists are correct, it’s the neutral point, not a bad thing at all in and of itself. You don’t believe anyone suffers any longer in death.
And I only want the stupid and evil to die because there is no feasible way of containing them or stopping their evil influence as things stand; I’d be okay with them simply fading into irrelevance, but that will not happen, not in today’s world.
ledasmom @31:
Unfortunately, Azuma has no interest in challenging hir opinions and beliefs or listening to other views (like the opinion-based on facts and evidence-that the overwhelming majority of Muslims across the globe are not violent, murderous thugs). That’s been evident from hir first comment in this thread. All hir comments can basically be boiled down to “I have an irrational hatred of Muslims based on the actions of a few Islamic extremists” (I can think of an old Pharyngula commenter Azuma would get along with really well based on this). And xe doesn’t see that such bigotry and hate isn’t a good thing. It isn’t something that’s going to make the world a better place. Nor will the deaths of people xe doesn’t agree with make the world a better place. Poor, poor Azuma. Xe has become the very thing xe despises: a stupid, evil person.
The problem, that you seem to be failing to grasp, is that YOUR idea of ‘evil’ and ‘stupid’ is not entirely objective. Especially the stupid part. Ignorance can be enlightened. Even willful ignorance can potentially be broken through. And you would be considered evil by many people in the world, so you’d get to die with the rest of the ‘evil’ and ‘stupid’ people.
Rowan @32:
Seconded.
For someone so repulsed by the violent actions of Muslim extremists that they think banning Muslim immigration* to the U.S. is reasonable, you’d think Azuma would perhaps reject the line of thinking that says “I wish death upon the people I disagree with”.
*I’m sure white Muslims need not be concerned about being trampled under Azuma’s boots.
I am female, and not ashamed to admit it, or be known by good old she/her pronouns. Ye gods, you and your fucking rampant political correctness.
You still want to make this about race. You want a convenient little box to put me in because I make you uncomfortable. “Oh she’s a bigot, so nothing she says has any truth to it!” Wrong on both counts, and a hideous genetic fallacy and ad hom (ad fem?) to boot.
You atheists have a problem: a lot of you are moral nihilists, just like the Christians you claim to despise. No, one person’s “narrative” is not as good as another’s, and no, one culture is not as good as another’s. Ignorance is not as good as knowledge, and backasswards tribal bullshit is not as good as science.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-to-print-1-million-copies-next-week/
Ooh, how dare we not want to assume you’re male. Bad, naughty, us.
We’re also not moral nihilists. In fact, that you would call us here that shows you have no idea what moral nihilism actually is, but instead you seem to merely like the sound of it.
There are things that are bad: rape, murder, and wishing death upon people merely for disagreeing with you. There are things that are good: reducing suffering, increasing well-being, peace, equality.
(Because, in this lovely society, male is the ‘default’)
@Rowan:
Okay then, let’s see if you’ve figured out the justification for morals in a naturalistic worldview (I did, and I didn’t even need to read Carrier to do it). And then let’s see if you can figure out why that conflicts with this bizarre “all cultures are equal” meme we’re fed.
Azuma @37:
One: race is a huge component in anti-Muslim bigotry because many RWAs like yourself view Muslims as all being of the same ethnicity. Your bigotry is directed at Muslims from the Middle East. You and your ilk are aware that for many Muslims their religion and their ethnicity are tied together. You’re aware of this and you play upon it.
Two: You make many of us uncomfortable because you actively want to make the world a worse place.
Three: Yes, you are a bigot, and I’m still waiting for some truth to any of your statements. Of course it’s no surprise that someone who feels Muslims are a danger to the US and should be prevented from immigrating here would have problems recognizing the truth.
Four: Not an ad hominem.
Five: Go away and learn.
Six: Your views on Muslims are right at home with the religious fundamentalists and right-wing authoritarians in the United States. Awful company you keep.
Seven: Fuck off.
Azuma @41:
Empathy for others.
Something you’ve a massive shortage of.
Azuma @37:
Your comment needed a little tweaking.
Fuck off, Tony. I’m done empathizing with people who don’t deserve it. I’ve gotten hurt too much by doing that and can’t afford to any longer. Your giant list of assertions and “nuh-uh!” isn’t helping your case. Most people, period, suck total ass, and I need to defend myself from them.
As to the fundamentalists in the US, they’re my worst enemies. I’d love to airdrop every single one of them into Iran and take care of two problems with one decisive action. They’re the American Taliban. And by saying I’d like their company, you are showing you haven’t paid one goddamn bit of attention to one goddamn thing I’ve said except the parts you want to jump on for your “hurr hurr bigot durr” parade. Fuck. Off.
Ahh, we need to earn our humanity.
Everybody needs to fuck off and die a preferrably horrible death unless they get permission to exist on Azuma’s planet. Really, how do we call people again who think that they get to decide who should live and who should die?
Funny that: it’s exactly what the Kouachi brothers think about those who don’t share their twisted worldview.
Speaking of the Kouachi Brothers, they’ve been found and are currently entrenched (with hostages) in a printing house surrounded by cops. In other words, contrary to the supremacists’ claims, the ruled-by-squichy-socialists French Republic functions perfectly, and instead of wasting time and energy tormenting innocent muslim bystanders like Azuma & co wished its law enforcement found the killers within 24 hours, leaving them with nothing more than a hopeless last stand.
Enough of this shit. I need to sleep and go to work tomorrow; unlike some of you, I actually work for a living. You’re a bunch of useful idiots and you’re going to pay the price one of these days if you don’t smarten up…and I won’t miss you, frankly.
damien75 @487
Sorry, I wasn’t clear! I didn’t think that you meant nothing would happen, and that’s not what I meant, either. Yes, we’re going through a period when more terror attacks are happening, but it’s not the End of Civilisation As We Know It or anything like that, as some people seem to fear.
Azuma Hazuki, why are you stuck in this seeming notion that only a cruel and fundamentalist take on any given religion is the only real version of that faith? Great way to play fundamentalists’ game for them, and to drive oneself to despair if one’s beliefs don’t tend to atheism, not to mention showing remarkable ignorance of different religious thought, and amazing levels of bigotry to billions of people.
Oh, and no, I am not an atheist. Neither do I follow any religion. Calling the Pharyngula regulars moral nihilists is … bizarre. They’re anything but.
General question: does Azuma seem like a returning troll to any regulars? I don’t know your trolls at all, but there’s something about the very personal, frothing rage that seems like the sort of thing sockpuppeting trolls do.
Besides, even if someone pay lip service by saying “But I knoooooow that Islam is not a race” while wallowing in religious/cultural determinism, they’re still being racist as fuck. (There’s also when it come to Muslims living in Europe a huge class-contempt aspect: most european Muslims are plebeians, and many among the upper-class fear and loath them because they are plebeian, just like they used to fear and loath poor, catholic spanish, portuguese, polish & italian immigrants, despite being themselves catholic for the most part.)
2kittehs
She’s been around for a while. Not remarkable, not plain evil like right now, so, no, I don’t think so. PZ will probably check that out.
As for the situation in France: the stupidity of the media, it bruns.
The police have asked NOT to show them because they don’t want to give the terrorists information, because they’Re just as capabe of using social media as everybody else.
BBC goes “but that’s our freedom of speech, the one they died for!!!!!”
Yeah, and you’Re willing to have the hostages in the factory die for it as well….
laurentweppe, @48
“In other words, contrary to the supremacists’ claims, the ruled-by-squichy-socialists French Republic functions perfectly”
Perfectly… I wouldn’t go that far.
Consider the police: they have cornered these guys, however I like it better when they arrest terrorists just before they execute their plan, as they sometimes do.
Azuma @46:
You’re calling for Muslims to be prevented from immigrating to the United States.
Just like RWAs.
You’re calling for people whom you disagree with to die.
Just like RWAs.
You refuse to re-examine your beliefs to ensure they match reality.
Just like RWAs.
You engage in fear-mongering.
Just like RWAs.
Tell me again how different from them you are? They may be your enemies, but you’ve adopted their thinking and rhetorical tactics. Again, you’ve become what you claim to hate.
Le Monde reveals that the main suspect in yesterday’s gunning down of a policewoman is indeed close to the Kouachi brothers.
The suspect is still running.
Several terrorist attacks were thwarted in their early stages in France during the past month: no institution can guarantee zero risk, and any politician promising it or pundit demanding it are, rightly so, called demagogic con-men.
Azuma @49:
Yes, yes. You want to live in a world where people who disagree with you deserve to be put to death. You enlightened, compassionate person you.
So glad you’re finally fucking off.
You don’t know the first thing about what people here do. For all you know, everyone here works for a living. Also, even if *no one* in this thread works for a living, so what? It doesn’t mean our opinions and beliefs somehow lack merit.
As for “smartening up one day”…if by “smarten up”, you mean embrace anti-Muslim fearmongering that has no basis in reality, then no, I won’t be “smartening up”. As I’ve mentioned repeatedly, you have no evidence to back up your fears of Muslims. All you have is your irrational fear that the Islamic extremists are coming to get you. Where you’re scared and fearful of those extremists, I’m not, bc there is no reason to be. As I live in the United States, I (and other USAmericans) have more to fear from right-wing domestic terrorists than Islamic extremists.
Well, shit. I hope no one else dies.
This is one time I wouldn’t mind police scrambling communications so as to be able to save the hostages without bloodshead
“Several terrorist attacks were thwarted in their early stages in France during the past month: no institution can guarantee zero risk, and any politician promising it or pundit demanding it are, rightly so, called demagogic con-men.”
I agree.
Goodness, I’m glad that Azuma Hazuki isn’t my neighbour, what a hateful person.
Off-topic note.
It’s helpful (and considerate) to respond to commenters using their nym and the comment number (though this is only a suggestion).
Also, when quoting material, blockquoting the selected material makes it easier to read comments. To blockquote:
<blockquote>place text to be quoted here</blockquote>
produces
to beatrice, #58
“This is one time I wouldn’t mind police scrambling communications so as to be able to save the hostages without bloodshead”
Is what you have in mind the possibility for the Kouachi’s to receive expret advice from the outside regarding how to deal with the police?
damien 75
No, it seems like the terrorists were warned by the close coverage of the police operation on the news and on social media. If you exactly film and report what the police are doing live and the people who are on the run can receive these images as they nowadays can, you’Re essentially aiding them by giving them information
++++
Detroit Muslims donate $100,000 to help people avoid water shutoffs.
But Muslims are all horrible people that should be kept out of the U.S.
::rolls eyes at Azuma’s hate::
Tony! @64, I suspect Azuma would say that those people aren’t True Muslims.
It’s like an inverted version of the No True Scotsman fallacy. Rather than a member of Group X claiming that someone who did something bad cant be a member of Group X, it’s someone outside of Group X that anyone who did something good can’t be a member of Group X.
The first version is understandable, though it allows people to avoid examining issues within their own group. Azuma’s version, though, is pure hatred. Though not as bad as the variant, the only member of Group X is a dead X. Which Azuma got pretty close to saying as well.
Ummm so French terror suspects in phone contact, want ‘martyr’ death . I don’t know how updated that is, but they closed incoming airport traffic because of that.
to Giliell #63
I wrote a long answer, and then I finally got it, so thank you.
to Tony! The Queer Shoop: thank you for comment #61
re: filming the police
When the shooter entered the Parliament in Ottawa (Canada), the cops actually requested, over social media, not to tweet locations or images of police, for the safety of anyone still stuck inside. That sort of caution, I think, merits double attention in this case. And if people understand, they will comply – you should be willing to at least pause in tweeting those images (perhaps tweet them after the operation has moved on?) while the police do their work.
Holy shit, bigotry against atheists too!! Are you trying to win me a yacht? Come on, say something homophobic and i’ll hit bingo!
I’m really sorry people were awful to you, that you got hurt and that in your own words, you are shattered….it’s still no excuse for how horrible a human being you are. You don’t get to be a massive, disgusting piece of shit because someone hurt you, no matter how bad it was.
By the way, i don’t think anyone here would ever claim that all cultures are equal (they are not, so fucking what? and whatever culture you are from, it’s definitely not the best one, it produced you…), and we know full well where morals in a naturalistic worldview come from….that is precisely why we are calling you a disgusting, morally repugnant arsehole. Fucking hell, you dare to even use the word morals…
Azuma,
You mean you’ll ignore it because you’re a full of shit bigot.
Observe, you tiny-minded immoral idiot:
“Jews don’t belong in our lands.”
“Muslims don’t belong in our lands.”
Yeah, you’re totally not channeling Himmler there.
Re: the pole-vaulter point… you’re really shit at analogies too (no surprise). A person physically incapable of pole-vaulting can’t be called a pole-vaulter. There’s no physical necessity preventing someone from cherry-picking Islam. People do it with all religions. At first I couldn’t believe you could really be this dumb, but you’ve thoroughly convinced me.
———————-
I think making making numerous posts saying things like all Muslims should be prohibited from immigrating and that the only good Muslims are those who want to destroy the west should be a grounds for a ban. It’s ridiculous.
I read thare is another hostage taking on the east border of Paris.
Since it was declared that yesterday’s shooter was linked to the Kaouchi’s and since he still is on the run, I find myself thinking it might be related.
A charge often levied by right-wing bigots. Imagine that!
Lofty, #60
Me too. At this stage, I’m worried for any Muslims that she may encounter in real life.
———-
Oh, great. Wishing people who are speaking against your bigotry to die. Wonderful. How totally compatible with the wonderful values of the west that you seem to be protecting. That totally makes you look awesome and makes Muslims look bad.
According to the police, it is.
throwaway @72:
Tsk. Tsk. Azuma won’t like that comparison one bit. I mean really, what does she have in common with right-wing bigots?
/snark
I guess Christopher was right to be more worried than I was.
A religion with its own hit-men. Wow. Maybe Islam started out as a mafia. Allah-blah-blah-most-high-blah-blah was the name of the godfather and Mohammed was the hit-man. Over the centuries, these confused people who read the future in camel turds started praying to the godfather, Allah for short instead of the long extended name. Then they added a bunch of obsessive-compulsive rituals and it grew into a religion.
Yes, dadsen, that’s really a nuanced and well-researched comment on the history od Islam
dadsen @77:
I’m sorry, were you talking about Islam or Christianity?
Azuma has been hurt. Therefore, everyone she doesn’t like should suffer. Makes perfect sense! We are clearly the sensitive ones here for sure.
/biggest fucking roll of the eyes
Oh, I’m sorry, by “suffer” I mean put to death. And I loved the whole “I actually work for a living”, nobody gives a shit most of us do too.
Nah, I was being more pessimistic than needs be.
It looks like you had the better idea: there only seems to be one terrorist cell active, composed of two hardcore jihadists and a stoner that can’t say no to his brother. The shooting of the police woman and the current hostage situation in the Kosher market is one dude, and the other two are holed up in an industrial building near the airport, possibly with a hostage of their own. If you aren’t currently a hostage, and aren’t near enough to either standoff situation to catch a stray bullet when things get messy, you are safer than you’ve been for the last couple of days while these guys milled about.
I still hope they are taken alive and tried, but that is looking exceedingly unlikely.
dadsen, #77
If you wanted to be both offensive and factual, you could have gone with Islam is a man-made amalgamation of borrowed ancient superstitions and immoral rules which then underwent many revisions and reinventions as it was forced on other people over the centuries through bloody conquest. I guarantee you that’s going be considered more offensive to the mullahs and fanatics (because deep down they know it’s true) than saying things like camel turd. That just makes you come across as a standard right-wing bigot.
Saying things like that or drawing Muhammad cartoons serves no purpose in solving the problem.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/01/19/why-i-am-an-atheist-hazuki-azuma/
SWAT is starting the raid against the brothers: gunfire, smoke and explosions. No news on the market hostage situation.
That’s not the SWAT, that’s the GIGN: they tend to kill a lot less puppies and throw a lot less grenades into toddlers’ craddle than their american colleagues.
Well, let me give it a go… Azuma…
I actually do sympathize with you if something (anything) bad happened in your past (but I shouldn’t presume), which makes you now, as a result, unforgivingly and defiantly rail against Islam, and most muslims by proxy. If one of the survivors of the most recent shootings were to preach, passionately, that Islam is a virus, and that France should be deporting people via a religious test, I would think that sentiment vile, and hope that it were a minority viewpoint (and try to marginalize that viewpoint)… but I wouldn’t want that voice silenced altogether.
Although, right now… it’s just derailing better conversations that could be going on. And I’d still try to dissuade it (and you). Because denouncing an entire faith and the majority of its followers will never, *ever*, lead us anywhere (anywhere that anybody living in the 21st century should want to go back to).
I read that all three terrorists are dead.
French news reporting hostage saved (Dammartin), several hostages saved (Paris). (crossposting)
@Azuma 489
Yes. There is plenty of historical precedent for religions absorb pieces of other religions, such as Catholics in colonies adopting native deities as saints or Christians in general co-opting Yule as Christmas.
You talk about cafeteria religionists as hypocrites, but I disagree that those fully describe the difference between moderate and extreme religionists. The variants aren’t just failing adherents to one ‘true’ form of their religion, they are legitimate adherents to one of thousands of slightly different strains of religion that share a name and a common descent. The logical response to the above is “what of the holy texts”, but nobody can follow them in their entirety due to contradiction and only a fraction (even of the truly devout) even try. The real rules of a religion, the ones that people actually try to follow, are the social rules of the people in that specific church, or mosque, or etc. That is arguably less of a rational basis for belief than an ancient text, but rationality is not a requirement in religion. As evidence, consider liberal preachers who dedicate their entire lives to a religion while holding beliefs that disagree with the text; the fact that they work so hard to further their religion shows that they are not halfhearted believers of the text but fervent believers of the slightly different religion that exists in their head. A moderate is not a fundamentalist who is slacking off; they are someone with a distinctly different strain of religion. The texts still do have influence, and there remains the potential for a strain of religion mutating back towards a more extreme form, but a chance to become something is very different from actually being that thing.
The ‘one true form of a religion people fail to follow’ is a concept historically created by fundamentalists to promote their own strains of religion as the only true version; religion as people practice it is more complicated than that.
EveryZig @90:
Nicely put!
@(5)84: Yes, I thought i was agnostic atheist rather than agnostic Deist for a while. I then had some…experiences…which I don’t propose to share here again that made me rethink that. Still agnostic, because any honest person has to be, but I suspect strongly enough to call it belief that there is something that answers to some concept of God.
Not the Abrahamic one of course; that one’s not only wrong, not only incoherent both prima facie (conflicting “omnis”) and when considered intersubjectively (free will theodicy is impossible), but actually dangerous and blasphemous, to me.
Still shaking my head in utter despair at the #notallmuslims groupthink. It’s true, #notallmuslims. Just like #notallmen. But #enoughmen still, am i right? #onemanistoomany, am i right? Same thing applies here.
I do not think accurately examining real causes for extremism and what to do about them as opposed to just saying “Islam is all bad. All Muslims are bad” counts as #notallmuslims.
Azuma @92:
Oh gee, the leading contender for Shistain of the Year has returned. Thanks for gracing us with your vile presence yet again.
This ain’t the same thing shit-for-brains. You’re trying to characterize all Muslims as bad, evil people who are inherently violent and a detriment to society who should be kept from immigrating to the United States.
The rest of us are pointing out that YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG. The vast majority of Muslims (remember there are billions of them on this planet) are not violent. A small number of them *are* violent. Why do you insist on treating that small number of extremists as representative of all Muslims? At least for consistency’s sake, you should do the same for all other religions. After all, there are murderous, violent christians in the United States, and there are people of other religions that embrace violence as a means of achieving their goal (rather like someone who wants others to die if they don’t agree with her).
As I’ve said repeatedly, you have no fucking evidence to support your irrational fear of Muslims.
Azuma Hazuki #92:
If you’re claiming to make a comparison, how, exactly, do you propose to actively discriminate against one particular man because another man is a misogynist?
#notallmen is a whine by men who falsely claim to be being discriminated against. You fucking are proposing to discriminate against all Muslims regardless of guilt. So yeah, #notallmuslims is valid.
@92
No, it fucking doesn’t…not when you want to take away rights and liberties of the entire group that you want to generalise about…
For fuck’s shakes….
Forgot to say:
Let alone kill, destroy and annihilate…
So… #onemuslimistoomany, therefore #discriminateagainstallmuslims?
Have you forgotten why people were so fervently disagreeing with you in the first place, and how you’ve ended up at this point?
#54
You’re now calling for nuance?
Azuma,
Wrong yet again. You don’t understand the point of #notallmen.
Azuma,
Ahhh! Sounds like somebody needs a hug.
@92
#notallmen: a response to criticizing problematic aspects of mainstream male culture in western countries
#notallmuslimgs: a response to a call to take actual legal action against muslims as a category (keeping them out of the country)
These things are not responses to the same action, and if you wanted to take legal action against men as a category that would also be bad.
If you want to criticize the problematic aspects of mainstream Muslim culture in western countries go ahead. It does help though to distinguish between what actually is mainstream here and what is said by fringe think-tanks or Muslims elsewhere. Such problems do exist, they have just so far been passed over in favor of worse views that mainstream Muslims here do not actually follow.
Notallmen is a derailment of a discussion involving feminism, sexism, misogyny, or rape culture by men who want to it to be known that they aren’t like *those* men.
That’s quite a bit different than multiple commenters calling out a hateful bigot who characterizes all Muslims as inherently violent. Muslims are NOT inherently violent. Responding to your hate, Azuma, with Not All Muslims, serves to counter your assertion that they’re all bad.
Incidentally, just like the men who derail conversations about women’s right, you’ve derailed this discussion with the hate you’ve pulled from your bowels.
Tony! The Queer Shoop #102:
Hmm…
The curdled yoghurt of human kindness,
Doth flow from their very bowels
Dum-de-dum de-dum-de-dum-dum
De-dum de-dum de trowels.
It has possibilities…
Glad to have served as inspiration Daz :)
Azuma,
Bad news, Sweetie. I just tallied things up, and it appears you’ve fallen just short of contributing 10% of all comments on this 600+ comment thread. So close! You had 59 out of the first 600 comments. Now granted, if we include all the comments informing you of how reprehensible your sentiments are, the total goes much higher–above 50%, I’d say. Maybe we should start a thread where you can argue with yourself, thereby accounting for 100% of comments.
liar.
please, ban this person? nothing but toxic waste.
There are deistic people who are violent. I had one such person, when I refused to acknowledge his astral dragon mate as real, send an entire army of astral dragons to kill me. This was…. 5, 6 years ago now? … He also then later made a point of mentioning how close he now lived to me, and how he wanted to go postal on me.
Therefore, because of a similarity in belief, YOU should be tossed out of this country, because you’re going to send an army of astral dragons to kill me.
Also, I thought you had to go to work. That was your flounce-excuse. Then you are back posting 7 1/2 hours later. Just go to work and go away. You are a bad person. I seriously hope you don’t work around other people, they don’t deserve that.
oh, they’re there… it’s just a slow death. by a thousand quantum-sized nibbles.
takes decades I hear.
*dr evil laugh*
well, that IS kinda what you would expect if you went to work, and the VERY FIRST THING on your mind when you came home was to share the love with all your BFFs!
Azuma strikes me as someone who feels they’ve had a ton of shit dumped on them in their life, and have never gotten over being angry at the world, so are happy to vent that anger on anyone or anything that gives them even the slightest fake excuse to do so.
I get it, really, but if that’s ALL you’ve got left? that’s no way to live.
If I get to the point where all I can do is spew bile, I do hope that my friends would tell me it’s over, and get me some treatment or just put me out of my damn misery.
fortunately, I’m only at the 30% bile spewing level.
Well, you know, if you wanted to arrest my husband, and my son in law, and my friend’s toddler grandson because some men rape, I’d damn sure go “not all men”.
That should be godson. we don’t practise child marriage in this family…
@Ichthyic, #111:
Not that it excuses Azuma at all, but “if I ever get like you I hope my friends kill me” is a really nasty thing to say, definitely falls into the “wishing death on other posters” category.
no, it isn’t.
It’s close.
no it isn’t.
seriously, if you think that’s close, I WANT you to ban me right alone with Azuma.
fail.
if I were like you I hope someone would put me out of my misery
… yeah it kinda is
“if I were like you I hope someone would put me out of my misery”
Someone please explain how this is magically NOT “wishing death on others”? The implied sentiment is quite clear: “you people are worthy of death”.
Giliell @52
Ah, thanks. I don’t recognise many non-regulars’ nyms.
EveryZig @90, well said!
Christ, you fucking people. I just got out of the goddamn hospital a while ago after nearly collapsing at work today, the second day of two days straight of unexplained pain, cramps, and spasms. I do not need this. The one person on this whole second page of comments who said anything even close to useful was EveryZig at #90, and it’s still wrong!
But, fine, you win. Trying to get anything through to you people is like feeding a black hole cherry pies in the hope it’ll stop being so hungry eventually. You people make Derrida look like Kant after a half gallon of Klatchian coffee.
Was worth it to see Ichthyic’s Not-So-Different moment though :) I knew I had ol’ sharkface pegged bang to rights as a festering hypocrite; was just wondering if it’d manifest or not. Save your self-righteous pity, fish-for-brains: hate is corrosive fuel, but sometimes it’s all you have to go on.
The Charlie Hebdo Effect
Worth a read.
Some interesting bits:
Bigots uniting. Oh joy.
Some more thoughts about how this will shift Europe more to the right:
Charlie Hebdo Attack: Europe’s Far-Right Political Parties Could Benefit From Paris Shooting
For those who didn’t click, here are some bits and pieces:
Jeremi Suri also makes a case for Greek Syriza , who was expected to do well in the elections, possibly losing support thanks to being pro-immigration.
I’m not going to argue who’s treating immigrants worse, but I think these paragraphs brings some perspective on hows and whys of some immigrants/children of immigrants turning to radicalism:
Joe Sacco: On Satire – a response to the Charlie Hebdo attacks
He definitely didn’t hold anything back, walking the line of pointing out bigotry by using bigoted images…. and in a way he crossed it. He crossed it so far, so cruelly and with such pessimism, that he almost made me cry.
That last panel…
beatrice
And we just got German feminist Alice Schwarzer declare that just because 38% of Germans think that a woman with a headscarf can’t be German, it doesn’t mean that those people are anti-immigrant or harbour resentiments against muslims
Why? Because most muslims feel welcome in Germany! The others must work harder to make themselves feel welcome, presumably by taking off their headscarves.
Of course she uses the refugees as her argument, because they flee islamism. Therefore, headscarves mean islamism or something, even on the heads of the women who just fled ISIS…
This, via Giliell on twitter: Joe Sacco: On Satire – a response to the Charlie Hebdo attacks.
This can only happen here.
rq, that’s the article beatrice linked to two posts above.
I clicked on it, read it, tweeted it.
The world’s a village, right?
Giliell
:P for my laziness. I even thought I saw it here before, but didn’t bother verifying. *sigh* Oh well, I’ll go find something totally new to share here twice. ;)
[OT]
That’s what happens when you breed a genetically modified hivemind with tentacles… it takes a while for it to learn how to coordinate all the tentacles
Sometimes, the tentacles forget to fake individualization. :)
Muslim employee helped people escape from the Jewish grcery store
Azuma,
Then stop telling us hateful bigot shit about innocent people. We do not need that either.
Cross posted from the Lounge.
More rightwing nonsense blaming Obama for attacks in Paris, or as good as blaming him:
So says Pamela Geller, a BarbWire contributor
http://barbwire.com/2015/01/09/0620-obama-refuses-call-charlie-hebro-terror-attack-islamic-allegiances/