Utterly unsurprising


No indictment for Darren Wilson.

He was a white cop who murdered a black teenager. Did you really expect anything else?

Comments

  1. says

    Glad the one woman asked McCulloch what “issues” need to be fixed to prevent this from happening again. Of course he refused to answer.

  2. woozy says

    And no we’re going to have protests! PROTESTS! PROTESTS! Oh, my god! Blood on the streets!

    …. unless we don’t.

  3. mamba24 says

    Wasn’t enough evidence to convict/send to jury trial. Don’t assault police officers and try n take their guns. They’re still human beings and WILL respond aggressively. Black, white, brown, or blue. Doesn’t matter what your skin color is.

    [Nope. Not going to let you motherfucking racists babble here. You’re gone. –pzm]

  4. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Nope, not without removing the prosecutor, governor, etc., who are closet bigots.

  5. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Wasn’t enough evidence to convict/send to jury trial.

    Dead body, unarmed, with multiple police bullets in it? What have you been smoking?

  6. yazikus says

    The only thing I can imagine the jurors thinking to come up with this is something along the lines of:
    We aren’t racist!
    America is post-racial!
    He probably shouldn’t have shot that kid…
    But he was scared!
    He’s going to have to quit his job.
    This will haunt him forever, he probably feels terrible.
    Isn’t that punishment enough?
    Poor thing, his life will never be the same.
    No indictment.

    But that is all bullshit. Your fail jurors.

  7. drst says

    Nerd, I’m pretty sure none of these racist assholes are still in the closet at this point. Fuckers.

  8. Ichthyic says

    Glad the one woman asked McCulloch what “issues” need to be fixed to prevent this from happening again. Of course he refused to answer.

    He obviously was invoking his 5th amendment privilege.

  9. Ichthyic says

    Wasn’t enough evidence to convict/send to jury trial.

    bullshit. the fact that it took 2 MONTHS to evaluate all the fucking EVIDENCE rather suggests there was indeed PLENTY OF EVIDENCE to go to trial.

    Are you a fucking moron?

  10. gog says

    Don’t assault police officers and try n take their guns.

    That’s such a just-so scenario, innit? Tried to take his gun? There is not one shred of evidence suggesting that this is a thing that happened except for the testimony of Darren Wilson.

  11. Ichthyic says

    not one shred of evidence suggesting that this is a thing that happened except for the testimony of Darren Wilson.

    which, btw, was another very unusual thing to have the defendant testify and a grand jury proceeding, as evidence in his own case.

    bah.

    the US is totally gone, and far faster than I had expected after 9/11. only took about ten years; thought it would take double that at least.

  12. tulse says

    There is a vast deal of difference between enough evidence to “convict” and enough to “send to jury trial”. Hint: it’s the latter that actually decides the former.

  13. yazikus says

    So at this point, can any higher authority step in and fire all these jackasses? Does anyone have that power? They are obviously corrupt, racist & murderous.

  14. Ichthyic says

    But that is all bullshit. Your fail jurors.

    the people who fucking FAILED are the ones that gave this grand jury the impression that their job was to try the fucking case, instead of just making sure there was simply evidence enough to go to trial to begin with.

    your justice system… evidently nobody there knows HOW IT FUCKING WORKS any more.

  15. HappyNat says

    mamba24

    Don’t assault police officers and try n take their guns. They’re still human beings and WILL respond aggressively. Black, white, brown, or blue. Doesn’t matter what your skin color is.

    Because minorities, who are overwhelming targeted by law enforcement, are known to pick fucking fights with police. Have you heard how minorities talk about police? They stay away, not confront.

    Also, nice how you “don’t see color”.

  16. nomadiq says

    My summary of the McCulloch statement… 10 minutes of reiterating that you can’t trust witness testimony (agreed), then summarizing the decision with stating some witnesses say Brown charged at Wilson. Wilson said Brown charged at him. I guess the grand jury believed them. Oh and there was some physical evidence. I guess that showed that Brown was gunned down, unarmed and at a distance from Wilson. But some people say he was charging at him!

  17. Ichthyic says

    can any higher authority step in and fire all these jackasses?

    no, the question is not can they, but will they?

    the answer you should already know, by the mere fact that the obvious conflicts of interest in letting McCullogh pursue this case were entirely ignored by his superiors.

    no, there will be no justice. forget about it. that time is long past already.

  18. qwints says

    There is not one shred of evidence suggesting that this is a thing that happened except for the testimony of Darren Wilson.

    The county prosecutor stated that several witnesses testified that Brown stopped, turned around then ran at Wilson before Wilson shot. When questioned, he said the witnesses were African-American.

  19. yazikus says

    the people who fucking FAILED are the ones that gave this grand jury the impression that their job was to try the fucking case, instead of just making sure there was simply evidence enough to go to trial to begin with.

    Ichthyic, you said the thoughts that I was trying to convey much better than I could. Thank you.

  20. gog says

    @nomadiq:

    Exactly! Can’t trust witness testimony unless it’s a fucking cop, then everything they say is fact!

  21. doug834 says

    I keep hoping the racists asshats will someday stop having everything go their way, but I guess today isn’t that day. After George Zimmerman was acquitted for murdering Trayvon Martin I hoped beyond hope that maybe we would start to move toward a more sane world in which black males don’t automatically have targets on their backs. I see my hope was misguided yet again. I’m disgusted and tired of this, and I’m ashamed that this supposedly great country can still be so petty and vile.

  22. carlie says

    KSDK is showing a split-screen of Obama talking and shots of rioting and tear gas. Nice. (that did not actually mean nice)

  23. Usernames! ☞ ♭ says

    Don’t assault police officers and try n take their guns. They’re still human beings and WILL respond aggressively. Black, white, brown, or blue. Doesn’t matter what your skin color is.
    — mamba24 (#4)

    Your opinion differs from reality. Enough cops are racist so as to taint their entire profession. That the “good ones” don’t purge the bad apples makes them complicit.

    Unless you’re white, the cops are not your friends. Treat them as you would any other dangerous animal.

  24. microraptor says

    After George Zimmerman was acquitted for murdering Trayvon Martin I hoped beyond hope that maybe we would start to move toward a more sane world in which black males don’t automatically have targets on their backs.

    But we did! We succeeded in moving the targets around to their fronts. See- progress!

    … I just rolled my eyes so hard I think I strained something.

  25. yazikus says

    I do not trust the police any more, and do not regard them as my friends.

    Reminds me of the YWCA worker I was talking to, who told me they had a list of officers that they would request for DV calls, and it was short. If you don’t know which cop to trust, err on the side of caution.

  26. Ichthyic says

    Unless you’re white,

    oh, that won’t last much longer.

    just ask how the Occupy protestors were treated by cops.

    just ask student protestors in the 60s and 70s how they were treated by cops.

    being white soon will not be privilege enough. You’ll have to tow the line, or be punished, no matter your color. Welcome to fascism, American style. It’s me and you. Red White and Blue.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNHuI0Pw0m8

  27. says

    Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuckity FUCK.

    I had hoped… but no, no, we just got another demonstration of how the system is fucking RIGGED in favor of white people and the cops — especially white cops.

    Guaran-fucking-tee you if the races were reversed there’d be an indictment.

  28. doug834 says

    “But we did! We succeeded in moving the targets around to their fronts. See- progress!”

    I’m afraid that’s true, I admit my naivete was pretty strong, but after Zimmerman got away with murder I hoped that people would wake up and maybe this wouldn’t happen again. Foolish me…

  29. lorn says

    Based upon the preponderance of the reliable evidence, physical evidence is many times more reliable than “witnesses”, particularly when they have witnessed nothing and are simply speculating or making assumptions or working off of hearsay within their community, the decision is entirely correct. I had concluded as much weeks ago but had left open the chance that there might be more, or better, evidence out there I had no access to. As it is, based upon the evidence, the fact is that while racism is not gone or forgotten it was not central to how the officer reacted to an attack.

    IMO the tendency of certain parties to see this tragedy as primarily as racially motivated and driven, and to make the victim out to be a saint, has largely discredited the people who spoke too soon. The need to ride their hobby horse of proclaiming racism around the block to serve their ideology exceeded their need to find out what reality is and was and figure out what happened so that this case could be judged on the facts and merits.

    This false start, and because of this ill considered stance, the need to make the victim out to be a saint, and the officer as a murdering racist bigot, has effectively set back the movement out of racism. People seeking to eliminate racism need to be careful how they label events and which cases they chose as exemplars.

  30. yazikus says

    Guaran-fucking-tee you if the races were reversed there’d be an indictment

    The cop would probably have been led of the scene of the murder in handcuffs. Straight to trial. Then jail. No grand jury necessary.

  31. microraptor says

    Who made the victim out to be a saint? The most that has been said about him is that he was unarmed when he was shot to death by a police officer, which is factually correct.

  32. omnicrom says

    I’m afraid that’s true, I admit my naivete was pretty strong, but after Zimmerman got away with murder I hoped that people would wake up and maybe this wouldn’t happen again. Foolish me…

    Sadly no. The USA has an awful, awful, awful police force that is above the law and act like jack-booted, racist thugs. Zimmerman got away with murder when he shot a Black kid WITHOUT the advantage of being a cop. With the magic of his badge Wilson was never in any danger. I’m surprised more White cops haven’t gone around killing black people on a whim.

  33. doug834 says

    No one made the victim out to be a saint. But he was unarmed and obviously didn’t have to be shot repeatedly after the gun he didn’t have didn’t fire back. How hard is that to understand?

  34. Ichthyic says

    the decision is entirely correct.

    you don’t know shit. seriously. I can obviously and entirely correctly call you a complete idiot.

    why?

    it took them TWO FUCKING MONTHS to evaluate all the evidence.

    if there was that much evidence to evaluate, THERE WAS ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO INDICT, PERIOD. you fucking moron.

  35. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Based upon the preponderance of the reliable evidence, physical evidence is many times more reliable than “witnesses”, particularly when they have witnessed nothing and are simply speculating or making assumptions or working off of hearsay within their community, the decision is entirely correct.

    Nope, no way. Unarmed dead body with multiple police bullets in it. Prima facie reason to indict. Except for bigotry and cowardice.

  36. Ichthyic says

    effectively set back the movement out of racism

    fucking ignorant wanker is entirely ignorant.

    seriously, you need to go. banhammer this fucker, he’s never contributed anything of sense in the comments here, ever.

  37. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    IMO the tendency of certain parties to see this tragedy as primarily as racially motivated and driven,

    Reverse the situation. Black cop with smoking gun, and an unarmed white male. The book would have been thrown at the cop. You are stupid, naive, and a bigot or bigot apologist. Either way, you have nothing cogent to say.

  38. carlie says

    There are cameras everywhere in Ferguson, and hundreds of protesters (some estimates of about a thousand). So far all they’ve shown in terms of violence is about 4 guys who broke a rear windshield, and about 8 who tried to flip a police car. Very little compared to the amount of National Guard troops deployed a week ago in preparation. Nothing like the violence of white kids at a pumpkin festival, even.

  39. says

    IMO the tendency of certain parties to see this tragedy as primarily as racially motivated and driven, and to make the victim out to be a saint, has largely discredited the people who spoke too soon.

    So then, any attempt to counter the narrative that the victim was the fucking Devil Himself™ (as you damn well know the media, prosecution, and police department was doing) is “making him out to be a saint”? Are black murder victims by default bad people? You’re certainly suggesting it.

  40. opoetey says

    What a stunning display of racism and hypocrisy going on here. Everything is against you and white people are the scum of the earth… I get it. Enjoy your pity party.

  41. opoetey says

    “Wasn’t enough evidence to convict/send to jury trial. Don’t assault police officers and try n take their guns. They’re still human beings and WILL respond aggressively. Black, white, brown, or blue. Doesn’t matter what your skin color is.

    [Nope. Not going to let you motherfucking racists babble here. You’re gone. –pzm]”

    Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, that is a simple and polite statement of an opinion. I guess anything that doesn’t exactly match your holy opinion deserves a ban. “Free thoughts” my ass!

  42. ck says

    Over twenty years pass, and virtually nothing has changed since Rodney King, except that maybe these things are recorded a little more often. Also quite clear is that no matter how much evidence is available, the police officer involved will not be made to answer for anything.

  43. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, that is a simple and polite statement of an opinion.

    Polite has nothing to do with stupidity. Which that “opinion” is. Cops shouldn’t be wearing guns. It would really help keep their ego’s in check if they didn’t. They might even learn there are times for them to back off situations.

  44. Rowan vet-tech says

    More accurate opoetey:

    HOW DARE YOU NOT LET ME BE RACIST AT YOU! MY FROZEN PEACHES ARE BEING MELTED! YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO ME OR YOU MELT MY FROZEN PEACHES!

  45. Lofty says

    Considering how the racist fuckers rule in the US, I didn’t really expect any different. Fucking terrible to see them being so blatant about it though.

  46. Ichthyic says

    I guess anything that doesn’t exactly match your holy opinion deserves a ban. “Free thoughts” my ass!

    yes, your thoughts do appear to be coming straight out of your ass.

    fuck off, wanker, you don’t even know how your own justice system is SUPPOSED to fucking work.

    you don’t deserve democracy. you deserve exactly what’s coming… fascism.

  47. says

    I’m as pasty white middle-aged male as it gets and I haven’t trusted cops since my false arrest at 18.
    It’s shocking that anyone would believe the ridiculous story then told in the arrest report.
    (My pasty-whiteness and suburban-ness I’m sure are why charges were dropped.)

  48. Ichthyic says

    Over twenty years pass, and virtually nothing has changed since Rodney King,

    sure it has. now the cops have fucking TANKS.

  49. gog says

    @opoety #46

    It’s not a simple and polite statement of opinion. It’s utter refusal to even question for a second that the cop might be fucking lying out of his ass, knowing full well that the grand jury is going to lap it up.

    Hope you get sent to the dungeon next, you fucking ignorant, self-serving shitstain.

  50. Rowan vet-tech says

    I’m about as pasty white as a person can get as well, and I haven’t trusted the cops since I was 17 and my surprise!stalker tried to break into the house. The cop said that because I hid in terror for 3 hours before calling the police that he wasn’t going to do anything; after all if I waited that long maybe I’d just had an argument with my boyfriend.

    Fuck the cops.

  51. Scientismist says

    some witnesses say Brown charged at Wilson. Wilson said Brown charged at him. I guess the grand jury believed them.

    Perhaps that’s what the grand jury concluded: that Wilson was justified because he feared for his life when he was being “charged” by a clearly unarmed man. And that might be why they declined to indict on any of the five possible charges.

    But, if I understand correctly what McCulloch said, we will never know! Nobody is even allowed to ask why they declined to indict. All anyone can do is sift through the evidence that the grand jury saw (that is supposedly going to be released) and make their own guesses. If there had been a jury trial, we might get a better clue (at least the defense attorney would have had to outline a scenario to explain why they should not convict). But here there will be no trial, and no official explanation, and no closure — and if that doesn’t satisfy you, then that’s just tough.

    And this is American justice.

  52. says

    1. Okay, for good or ill: try not to let this verdict get you angry. If you’re going to get angry, get angry because the murder of Brown is only unusual because there were protests. (Or get angry at the response to the protests.) IIRC, the statistic is now that the cops kill an unarmed black man somewhere in America every 3 days, now, on average. There were multiple further such killings within a week of the murder of Brown. The only thing which makes the murder of Brown unusual is that the community as a whole didn’t just sit back and take it. This is depressing and horrible, but not surprising or unusual.

    2. Keep in mind that, rhetoric aside, this really is everybody’s issue. The police aren’t shooting whites indiscriminately and getting away with it… yet. But every time there’s another case where the police are permitted to get away, literally, with murder because — in essence — the victim is not white, it makes us all less safe. I don’t know, at this point, where I found this piece of text, but it’s one of the many I keep on my computer:

    I’ve been a criminal defense lawyer for ten years now and my favorite quote, which serves as an answer to the common question “How can you defend those people?” is that “bureaucracy and justice are like oil and water: if they’re not constantly agitated, they naturally separate.”
    What people don’t understand, when they ask how I can defend those people- is that if the people, whom the government is currently targeting, are not upheld during the prosecution, the rights of not only those people but of all of us are lost.
    I once lightheartedly dared a banker friend, who wondered how I could defend those people, to test his theory that the police always respected the rights of the innocent and upheld the Constitution, to drive his BMW through a bad part of town with me. I assured him that he wouldn’t be in danger but also predicted that he would be stopped “pretextually,” or for a fabricated reason (in violation of the Fourth Amendment) as the police broke the law in attempting to enforce it.
    I told him that this was the norm in the “bad area” of the city, as the people’s lack of political power made the essentially powerless to fight back individually against police’s willingness to go beyond the law in attempting to enforce it.
    He didn’t take me up on it, either out of fear or out of awareness that I was right, that the rights he enjoyed as a citizen in the suburbs didn’t extend into the ghetto (which is itself a word with interesting historical connotations)
    My life’s work as a criminal defense lawyer in modern America is essentially a fool’s errand and a losing battle. I used to feel as if I was, like the unappreciated keeper of flood control measures in the city, working to keep the Fourth Amendment safe so, when the political waters occasionally rose, the safeguard of the Fourth Amendment, (brilliantly crafted by Framers who understood the risks that unrestrained governmental power inevitably carry) would still be present to prevent a catastrophe.
    Now, having witnessed the appetite of the American people for torture and their willingness to be controlled by fear, I feel it’s only a matter of time until we realize, too late, that the rights of people the government brands as “terrorists” are in fact the rights we all enjoy, and unfortunately take for granted.
    While many are speaking up and warning against the unintended consequences of abandoning our core principles, embodied in our Constitution, when confronting so-called “terrorists,” I fear it’s only a matter of time before that label is placed on those we now think of as criminals and eventually on those few who are speaking up and warning against this dangerous willingness, so prevalent in America, to allow the government to suspend the principles that restrain it, when confronting Really Bad People.
    In short, the fact is that when too few of us speak up in favor of enforcing human and Due Process rights for those the government labels as Really Bad, the definition eventually gets expanded until it includes us.
    While I used to think those of us who are fighting against this trend could, (via Hope and Change!) eventually turn it back, the truth is we’re only holding our fingers in the dike and crying out to an audience that doesn’t hear us over the fear mongering of the government.
    We have met the enemy and he is us.

    If the banks crash the economy again, which looks more plausible every day, and the country goes into Depression conditions with people increasingly desperate, do you — does anyone — seriously believe that the police, who know they can get away with shooting people who are “unimportant”, are going to hold back from killing white people who “look dangerous”? As any black American man can tell you, having a job won’t save you if the police are out for blood; looking “respectable” won’t save you; being submissive won’t save you — the only thing which might save you is taking action now, while you still have the privilege of being able to do so, to hold the police responsible for their actions. Which, of course, is exactly the opposite of what just happened here.

  53. ck says

    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls wrote:

    Reverse the situation. Black cop with smoking gun, and an unarmed white male. The book would have been thrown at the cop.

    Probably. Unless the unarmed white male belonged to another class of people with limited to no recognised rights, like perhaps the homeless. We’ve got to make sure that people “know their place.”

  54. says

    I’m another pasty white person who doesn’t trust the cops as far as xe can throw them.

    This decision, compounded with other events in recent years, and my personal experiences with the popo, has made me lose ALL FAITH in the “justice” system.

  55. shockna says

    Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, that is a simple and polite statement of an opinion.

    “Politeness” doesn’t count for shit if the view expressed is fucking vile. He’s saying that execution is an appropriate punishment for (maybe) shoplifting, and that police are justified in their ability to kill with virtual impunity when the victim is isn’t white (since, after all, the cop wouldn’t have shot if Brown was white). The lack of “bad words” in the opinion doesn’t make it any less racist.

    I’d bet my next paycheck that he’d have gotten more overtly racist (having seen his type in the comments here before, this almost always happens), had he been allowed to continue spewing his bile all over the floor like he was starting to.

  56. anteprepro says

    Fuck that fucking jury.
    Fuck our justice system.
    Fuck the Ferguson police.
    Fuck all police like them and all the fucking apologists.

    And finally and absolutely least, fuck the trolls in this thread. There’s plenty now and I’m betting there are more racist, right-wing asshats to come. Fuck all of you apologists for cops literally getting away with fucking murder.

  57. congaboy says

    As some of you may know, I’m a defense attorney. A large percentage of my clientele are indigent (I am alternate defense counsel when there is a conflict with the public defender). I see, in nearly every case involving people of color, huge disparities in treatment by police. As for this indictment; the prosecution need only establish probable cause to get an indictment; they don;t have to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt until trial. Probable cause is (essentially): is there any evidence that a crime MAY have been committed; and is there any evidence (whether legally or illegally obtained) that COULD tie the accused to the crime. The standard is incredibly low. The saying is that indictments are so easy, you could indict a ham sandwich. I don’t think the prosecutor tried very hard. I wonder what the cops are going to say about the 12yo child that was shot dead for having a toy gun (of course, he was black too). Unfortunately, these cases just bolster the shoot-first-who-cares -about-any-questions mentality of the police. They know that they will get away with killing black men and there will be no one left alive to contradict their stories.

  58. Ichthyic says

    Obama sez:

    President Obama, who said in a statement from the White House: “First and foremost, we are a nation built on the rule of law.’’

    HO HO.

    you WERE that nation, once upon a time, maybe.

  59. Ichthyic says

    I don’t think the prosecutor tried very hard

    sure he did. he tried VERY hard NOT to get an indictment.

    hence, why people pointed out his obvious fucking conficts of interest before the proceedings even began.

    but of course, he’s a buddy of Governor Nixon, so Nixon let him go right on ahead.

    why even bother being a lawyer in the US any more, is my question to you.

  60. Jackie the social justice WIZZARD!!! says

    I was om the phone with my grandmother when we heard the news. She said the same thing she said after Zimmerman got away with murdering Trayvon Martin: “I told you. You cannot expect justice from an American court. ”

    I got off the phone and went to MSNBC. I heard a white woman ask a black man about “black on black” crime, threw up my hands and came here. What the fuck, America? When will it end?

  61. ck says

    congaboy wrote:

    The saying is that indictments are so easy, you could indict a ham sandwich. I don’t think the prosecutor tried very hard.

    I disagree. I think the prosecutor tried very, very hard, given that it took two whole months. The problem is, I don’t believe he was trying to indict. I think he got the exact outcome he was aiming for, and that he gamed the system to ensure that he got it.

  62. says

    HO HO. you WERE that nation, once upon a time, maybe.

    yep. Back when the law came out and explicitly SAID 3/5ths, etc. Now it pretends to feel otherwise.

  63. congaboy says

    I’m watching Lawrence O’Donnell and the consensus is that the prosecutor didn’t try to get an indictment. Apparently, he left out key information and evidence and presented as a defense of the officer and not a prosecution of the officer. It is really scary to be a black male in this society. There was a very telling scene form Jerry Seinfeld’s internet show in which he and Chris Rock are pulled over while Jerry was speeding. Chris Rock was extremely afraid and he wasn’t joking. But, Jerry was quite calm and quite sure that the officer was not going to harass him (not because he’s Jerry Seinfeld, but because he’s a white male).

  64. says

    PZ @26

    I’m white. I do not trust the police any more, and do not regard them as my friends.

    I’m a white, middle-aged woman, and I was nervous as hell anytime I saw cops around in LA, not for myself but for the girlfriend I was staying with, who’s black.

  65. numerobis says

    Is there much evidence that cops *don’t* get away with murder of white people? I’m straining to think of a case where a cop killed a white person and got substantially punished for it. I’m not denying the choice of victims is definitely biased on racial grounds, I’m just remarking on the apparent race-blindness of the culture of impunity.

    Our local little scandal of the day is a cop that ploughed into a car and killed a child in the back seat. The cop was in an unmarked car, driving 120 in a 50 zone, under orders from higher-ups to catch up to a person of interest in a corruption case. The investigation decided the cop and the higher-ups should all get off scot-free. We get at least one killing or wrongful death like that a year.

    The only cop punishment I ever heard of here was the one where the police officer put someone in a choke-hold, then took everyone’s cell phones, got in her car, called for backup, and at the end the people got their cell phones back. One of those cell phones recorded the whole thing, which allowed for a scandal — but that wouldn’t have been enough except she was already well known for a couple cases of well documented excessive violence that had gone unpunished, if not rewarded.

  66. anteprepro says

    What I had even more hope for was that the Ferguson cops as a whole would get some fucking form of punishment for their role in violently assaulting civilians and journalists for weeks on fucking end. But I am guessing that is going to be an even more unsurprising lack of justice as well.

  67. Jackie the social justice WIZZARD!!! says

    There are racist pieces of shit defending this travesty?

    You’re less than scum, you racist filth. Get back under the rock you crawled out from under.

    They’re chanting, “No justice, no peace!”

    I hope they’re right. I hope nothing stops these protests and I hope they spread.

  68. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Is there much evidence that cops *don’t* get away with murder of white people?

    First of all, they don’t tend to shoot at white folk, and use conversation, etc., to defuse the situation. With blacks, when in doubt, don’t talk, just fire.

  69. shockna says

    I’m not denying the choice of victims is definitely biased on racial grounds, I’m just remarking on the apparent race-blindness of the culture of impunity.

    I’d say the choice of victims is a factor that can’t be ignored when dealing with so-called “colorblindness”. Even if (and this might be the case, I’m not sure) they get away with killing whites as well, the much higher rate at which unarmed blacks are killed by police is, on its own, sufficient to say there’s still a strong racial bias.

  70. johnnyboy says

    “Wasn’t enough evidence to convict/send to jury trial. Don’t assault police officers and try n take their guns. They’re still human beings and WILL respond aggressively. Black, white, brown, or blue. Doesn’t matter what your skin color is.”

    “[Nope. Not going to let you motherfucking racists babble here. You’re gone. –pzm]”

    -Wow not sure how that comment is racist at all. Especially the part about the color of your skin not mattering. Totally a flaming racist…..(proceed to face palm)

  71. Pteryxx says

    numerobis #75:

    Is there much evidence that cops *don’t* get away with murder of white people? I’m straining to think of a case where a cop killed a white person and got substantially punished for it.

    As far as I know, the cops still get away with it, but they seem to brutalize or kill white people less often and even less so the right kind of white people – looking respectable, that sort of thing, count for a lot more with a white target. However police brutality cases across the board are almost never investigated or prosecuted – the numbers run something like 95-98% get off.

    Here’s one example cited in HuffPo:

    The report notes it’s also rare for a Chicago police officer to be held accountable for misconduct allegations. Among 10,149 complaints of excessive force, illegal searches, racial abuse or false arrest filed by residents between 2002 and 2004, only 124 — 1.2 percent — were sustained, and only 19 cases led to a penalty of suspension of at least a week or worse, according to the document.

    Citing a 2007 report by a University of Chicago Law School professor, the report notes that a brutality complaint filed against police in Chicago is 94 percent less likely to be sustained than elsewhere. In the city, only 0.48 percent of brutality complaints are sustained, compared to 8 percent nationally.

    Since black and Latino people receive most of the arrests and uses of force, but only by 78-92% and not 99%, some of those ignored complaints must be from white people – but that gives some idea of just how big the racial disparity really is.

  72. johnnyboy says

    “Fuck that fucking jury.
    Fuck our justice system.
    Fuck the Ferguson police.
    Fuck all police like them and all the fucking apologists.
    And finally and absolutely least, fuck the trolls in this thread. There’s plenty now and I’m betting there are more racist, right-wing asshats to come. Fuck all of you apologists for cops literally getting away with fucking murder.”

    -So PZ considers this to be totally acceptable babbling laced with expletives. While the Mamba person was completely calm and stated his opinion on the matter, and a pretty reasonable one at that……but they get banned while this dude doesn’t? And there are many more like this one with profanity that I saw.

  73. shockna says

    Especially the part about the color of your skin not mattering.

    It denies reality. In reality, where we’re forced to live, your skin color does fucking matter, since having the wrong skin color (i.e. not white) makes you a lot more likely to be shot by a cop. The comment denied the reality that the criminal justice system in the US is racist. Even if it wasn’t intended as racist, it’s still fucking racist, as it gives cover to racists.

  74. yazikus says

    johnnyboy,

    -So PZ considers this to be totally acceptable babbling laced with expletives. While the Mamba person was completely calm and stated his opinion on the matter, and a pretty reasonable one at that……but they get banned while this dude doesn’t? And there are many more like this one with profanity that I saw.

    This is a rude blog. Content matters more than manners.

  75. Lofty says

    Fuck off johnnyboy, you fucking tone troll. Here content and accuracy matters, not how much you use profanity.

  76. yazikus says

    Also, johnnyboy,

    -So PZ considers this to be totally acceptable babbling laced with expletives. While the Mamba person was completely calm and stated his opinion on the matter, and a pretty reasonable one at that……but they get banned while this dude doesn’t? And there are many more like this one with profanity that I saw.

    That is a whole lot of gender assumption tied up in one comment.

  77. Jackie the social justice WIZZARD!!! says

    Is there much evidence that cops *don’t* get away with murder of white people?

    You did not just “What about the white people” this thread.

    -Wow not sure how that comment is racist at all.

    Fuck you. That’s how. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuuuuuck you.

  78. johnnyboy says

    “Yes, saying “race doesn’t matter” or “black/brown/blue/green” are racist statements. They’re ignoring the proven, factual reality of overt and unconscious discrimination.”

    -I don’t believe this person was saying that racial discrimination doesn’t still occur in the world, you’re extrapolating quite a bit from their two sentence comment to be able to understand the intricate personality of this person. By the context of their comment, I believe the “race doesn’t matter” or “black brown blue green” comments were trying to say that it doesn’t matter who you are, if you assault a police officer, you’re not going to get a kind slap on the wrist. There’s nothing racist in that statement to me. And please don’t call me a blind ignorant scumbag merely because I disagree with you. That doesn’t make me a racist either.

  79. johnnyboy says

    “Fuck off johnnyboy, you fucking tone troll. Here content and accuracy matters, not how much you use profanity.”

    -So how do you determine which person’s opinion is the more accurate one that conforms with reality. Because telling them to fuck off doesn’t make your opinion on this particular incident any more valid/accurate.

  80. shockna says

    you’re extrapolating quite a bit from their two sentence comment to be able to understand the intricate personality of this person.

    Who gives a shit about his/her personality? The statement was racist, no matter what s/he intended it to be.

    I believe the “race doesn’t matter” or “black brown blue green” comments were trying to say that it doesn’t matter who you are, if you assault a police officer, you’re not going to get a kind slap on the wrist.

    We got that part. That’s trivial. The fact is, because of that overt/unconscious discrimination the comment ignores, if you do the so while black, you’ll almost certainly be shot, and probably half a dozen or more times. If you’re white, the cop will almost certainly act with restraint, and use only as much force as needed.

    That doesn’t make me a racist either.

    Whether you believe deep down that all black people are thugs or whatever else doesn’t matter. What matters is that you’re defending racist claims, and that’s true, irrespective of whether you’re the overt kind of Klansmen that media like to pretend are the only racists.

  81. Ichthyic says

    What the fuck, America? When will it end?

    do you really WANT to know?

    history suggests the answer will not be pleasant.

  82. Azuma Hazuki says

    Someone mentioned to me that the autopsy results supposedly showed 1) high levels of THC and 2) apparently that the shooting was close-range and in a position where “hands up” is impossible.

    Regardless of that, did the cop REALLY need to shoot to subdue? What about all that “less lethal” weaponry they have to hand at all times? Something still smells…

  83. Crimson Clupeidae says

    It’s not it would have been a conviction. A lot of people seem to confuse the terms.

    I know it’s been pointed out, but if it took that long to examine the evidence that pretty indicates there would be enough evidence for a fucking trial. But the 538 link is kinda scary. Cops really are all but above the law.

  84. johnnyboy says

    “This is a rude blog. Content matters more than manners.”

    -So I’m just curious, what’s the point of having a blog to discuss issues if no one is allowed to participate unless they agree wholeheartedly with PZ “smarter than everyone in the world” Myers? So we should be distrustful of EVERY single police officer in this nation? Tell people to fuck off because they don’t agree with you eye to eye? You people are a bunch of raging intellectuals here huh?

  85. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Looking, you stupid piece of rat shit, profanity is “polite” in the only way that matters. Lickspittling for institutional racism isn’t.

    Now toddle off.

  86. Ichthyic says

    I don’t believe this person was saying that racial discrimination doesn’t still occur in the world, you’re extrapolating quite a bit from their two sentence comment to be able to understand the intricate personality of this person. By the context of their comment, I believe the “race doesn’t matter” or “black brown blue green” comments were trying to say that it doesn’t matter who you are, if you assault a police officer, you’re not going to get a kind slap on the wrist. There’s nothing racist in that statement to me. And please don’t call me a blind ignorant scumbag merely because I disagree with you. That doesn’t make me a racist either.

    blah blah hyperskepticism blah blah.

    run along and play, grownups who have seen this exact kind of “colorblind” racism over and over again don’t need mansplaining from the likes of you.

  87. johnnyboy says

    “Who gives a shit about his/her personality? The statement was racist, no matter what s/he intended it to be.”

    -No I don’t really think it is racist, no matter how much you want to believe it is. Saying that you shouldn’t assault police officers isn’t a “racist” statement. And you can’t even make the case that it’s an unconscious racist statement. This is more about you not liking that someone disagrees with you, so you need to apply this label to them in order to make yourself feel better about your pre-determined conclusion to the ferguson incident.

  88. yazikus says

    johnnyboy,

    “This is a rude blog. Content matters more than manners.”

    -So I’m just curious, what’s the point of having a blog to discuss issues if no one is allowed to participate use swear words unless they agree disagree very rudely and wholeheartedly with PZ “smarter than everyone in the world” Myers? So we should be distrustful of EVERY single police officer in this nation? Tell people to fuck off because they don’t agree with you eye to eye? You people are a bunch of raging intellectuals morally outraged humans here, huh?

    FTFY

  89. gog says

    So we should be distrustful of EVERY single police officer in this nation?

    Actually, yeah. We should actively distrust law enforcement agencies that have a fuckton of really expensive weaponry, but don’t have relatively simple and comparatively cheap recording devices that cost a lot less than a gun and some ammo.

  90. bigwhale says

    IF he did start to charge Wilson. That is almost more horrific. How out of options do you have to feel so that you think charging an armed cop is your only option. It wouldn’t surprise me if Wilson said something to make Brown think he was going to kill him. Or the world Brown lived in that he believed he had nothing to lose. I cannot image stewing in that kind of fear.

    Of course this is speculation because we were denied a public trial.

  91. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    -No I don’t really think it is racist, no matter how much you want to believe it is. Saying that you shouldn’t assault police officers isn’t a “racist” statement. And you can’t even make the case that it’s an unconscious racist statement. This is more about you not liking that someone disagrees with you, so you need to apply this label to them in order to make yourself feel better about your pre-determined conclusion to the ferguson incident.

    Context, you mewling pigfucker. It’s a thing.

  92. HappyNat says

    Johnnyboy,

    The whole Brown/red/blue bullshit is the same as saying you don’t “see color”. It sounds good until you think about it past a 6th grade level. It ignores systemic oppression that has gone unchecked for hundreds of years. It’s what white dudes say to excuse their privilege and dust off their hands.

  93. johnnyboy says

    “Looking, you stupid piece of rat shit, profanity is “polite” in the only way that matters. Lickspittling for institutional racism isn’t.
    Now toddle off.”

    -Toddle off? Wow, quite a bit of irony in that statement considering the first sentence, it would be amusing if it wasn’t so pathetic. I can go ahead and scratch you off my list of notable intellectuals anyway…

  94. Ichthyic says

    This is more about you not liking that someone disagrees with you,

    you just keep telling yourself that, shit for brains.

    see how far it gets you.

  95. fentex says

    As far as I can see the police officers testimony, that he was attacked, punched, feared serious injury, drew his weapon, then if I continue to understand correctly, exited his vehicle to pursue the now fleeing assailant, and shot him dead even if accepted as completely true is an admission of murder.

  96. shockna says

    Saying that you shouldn’t assault police officers isn’t a “racist” statement.

    Delete all of the rest of the comment, and post it outside of the context of the Ferguson shooting, and you’d be right. That particular sentence, if viewed in vacuo, away from the rest of the post, is not racist. But strangely enough, the sentence appeared in exactly the right context with exactly the right other statements to make it racist by association (since language, being by definition context sensitive, can’t be interpreted on a sentence by sentence basis with no regard for the rest of the message or context it was posted in).

    Pairing it with the absurd and factually wrong claim that skin color doesn’t matter if you assault a police officer? Sorry, it becomes just one more support for a racist message.

  97. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    -Toddle off? Wow, quite a bit of irony in that statement considering the first sentence, it would be amusing if it wasn’t so pathetic. I can go ahead and scratch you off my list of notable intellectuals anyway…

    Whether or not one is intellectual has nothing to do with whether or not one talks like a white person with money.

    You’ve had that explained to you repeatedly. Are you really too fucking stupid to understand? Really? Are you really so fucking stupid that you judge “intellectual” on the basis of literally the most shallow criterion imaginable? Really?

    You ought to be locked in a room full of flavored light sockets. Answer the substance, cur.

  98. anteprepro says

    johnnyboy, we swear here. Pick another fucking thread to tone troll in. This is not a good thread for you to get into random pissing matches in for the lulz. This is a thread about police corruption, an incompetent justice system, and the incredible and tragic outcomes that some have to bear due to racism. If you want to keep playing games, go to the fucking Thunderdome.

  99. gog says

    Let’s clarify the context here: white police officer shoots dead an unarmed black teenager in an alleged assult-on-officer after confronting said black teenager as a person of interest in an alleged robbery that took place in the vicinity. Allegedly, a struggle occurred in which the black teenager, a very large and athletic man, assaulted a less-large and less athletic white cop and tried to take his gun. Cop reacted in self defense, shot black guy no fewer than six times. Notice how I didn’t say “allegedly shot” because, that’s not a fucking allegation. That’s what happened. The shit we don’t know about is whether Brown actually assaulted Wilson. We don’t know that Brown was actually the person that committed the robbery–not that it matters, really, because a robbery is not punishable by summary execution.

  100. Jackie the social justice WIZZARD!!! says

    Jonnyboy,
    Fuck the police and fuck you too. Is this really what you think you need to be doing right now? Defending a racist murderer and the racists who helped him escape justice? Look at your fucking life. It’s a hot fucking mess.
    But don’t do it here. GTFO of this thread.

  101. johnnyboy says

    “you just keep telling yourself that, shit for brains.
    see how far it gets you.”

    -Well I wasn’t absolutely certain that it was the case, but since everyone here does the exact same thing of telling themselves they know everything….. I thought I would join the party. So keep telling yourself whatever the fuck you want indeed dipshit.

  102. says

    I’ll try the experimental “be polite.”

    Johnnyboy, an indictment is an unbelivebly low bar of evidence. Is is essentially a, “could this have happened in our universe?”

    The answer is obviously, “yes, a cop could have shot an unarmed black teen.” Therefore, the case should have proceeded to trial. That’s it. Any prevaricating or dodging or generally being evasive about that it happened, and happens to a black teen is by definition racist since black men have a statistically higher risk of (especially) white cops using force that is far beyond what can be considered nessecary.
    …..
    There. I was polite. Layed out the general point of view here. And you know what? I still think you’re a tone troll who needs to lurk more or fuck off.

  103. ck says

    fentex wrote:

    […] exited his vehicle to pursue the now fleeing assailant, and shot him dead even if accepted as completely true is an admission of murder.

    But that’s the most dangerous part. A black man’s back is the most dangerous part of their body. They may choose to generate and throw jagged bone spikes out their back and impale a poor defenseless police officer. The cop had no choice but to kill him.

    Wait… Maybe I’m confusing comic books with reality again.

  104. johnnyboy says

    “Whether or not one is intellectual has nothing to do with whether or not one talks like a white person with money.
    You’ve had that explained to you repeatedly. Are you really too fucking stupid to understand? Really? Are you really so fucking stupid that you judge “intellectual” on the basis of literally the most shallow criterion imaginable? Really?
    You ought to be locked in a room full of flavored light sockets. Answer the substance, cur.”

    -Yes I actually do believe that how one talks and engages with other people in serious conversations, (social justice especially) does in fact matter in whether you can be determined an intellectual, at least a big part of it. Yes. Acting like a know-it-all, self-indulged 2 year old doesn’t really help your case. Are YOU really so fucking stupid as to not understand this?

  105. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Acting like a know-it-all, self-indulged 2 year old doesn’t really help your case.

    Maybe stop?

  106. throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble says

    gog @ 116

    We don’t know that Brown was actually the person that committed the robbery–not that it matters, really, because a robbery is not punishable by summary execution.

    It’s been a while since I’ve seen it mentioned, but didn’t the timeline of events show that Wilson couldn’t have known about the robbery at the time he murdered Brown?

  107. thesoftmachine says

    “I’m white. I do not trust the police any more, and do not regard them as my friends.”
    PZ Myers

    Oh, man, I wish I could arrange it so you received no consideration from law enforcement whatsoever. None. That would be great.

  108. chimera says

    Antonio French retweeted
    St. Louis County PD ‏@stlcountypd 20m20 minutes ago

    Officers reporting heavy automatic gunfire in area of W. Florissant and Canfield.

  109. Joe says

    @throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble

    It’s been a while since I’ve seen it mentioned, but didn’t the timeline of events show that Wilson couldn’t have known about the robbery at the time he murdered Brown?

    I’m pretty sure that is the case, but I don’t have a link on hand at the moment.

  110. brett says

    I figured it was a forgone conclusion that Wilson was going to walk* without an indictment as soon as Governor Nixon refused to pull McCulloch off of the case. McCulloch’s the living definition of a cop fanboy: police relatives, police father who was killed in the line of duty by a black man, wanted to be a policeman but couldn’t for health reasons, and a history of letting off police for injuring and/or killing black men. He should never have been assigned to this case, but he was, and he behaved about as you would expect – he did as little as possible to move the case forward without outright defending Wilson in public while the case was on-going.

    The only justice in Ferguson to be got will be if the folks there organize, vote, and knock the Ferguson government out of power. Then do what people did to the last police force that Wilson was part of, and disband it completely before reforming it under new leadership with new officers (preferably officers that are actually representative of the makeup of the community). At the very least, the Justice Department needs to hit Ferguson PD with a consent decree like LAPD after Rodney King and the Rampart Scandal – it’s one of the few things that can actually clean up a police department.

    * There was news that Wilson was being negotiated out of Ferguson PD. That might not be happening since he married a fellow officer, but the man needs to get the fuck out of town.

  111. johnnyboy says

    “The answer is obviously, “yes, a cop could have shot an unarmed black teen.” Therefore, the case should have proceeded to trial. That’s it.”

    -But don’t we grant a certain amount of authority to police? Who then have a certain amount of discretion in whether they can or should use lethal force in certain situations? Does the fact that he was an unarmed black teen mean that it should have proceeded to trial? (I don’t believe so) The grand jury obviously didn’t think so, and I would think that they knew what to look for when making that determination.

  112. anteprepro says

    Chimera:

    Officers reporting heavy automatic gunfire in area of W. Florissant and Canfield.

    Officers in Ferguson report a lot of things. I believe they back at the start of their Glorious Reign they reported molotov cocktails that didn’t exist. They tend to report things that justify them cracking skulls. They aren’t the most credible sources, is what I am saying.

  113. gog says

    @throwaway

    I can’t recall. My head is swimming from listening to the first part of McCulloch’s statement. I kept thinking to myself “I thought this story had been refuted already!” so many times. I don’t know. I’m so tired.

  114. chimera says

    Mark Ames retweeted
    Matt Ford ‏@fordm 11m11 minutes ago

    Hell of a stat: Federal grand juries indict 99.99% of the time: here

  115. anteprepro says

    But don’t we grant a certain amount of authority to police? Who then have a certain amount of discretion in whether they can or should use lethal force in certain situations? Does the fact that he was an unarmed black teen mean that it should have proceeded to trial? (I don’t believe so)

    Fuck. Off. Johnnyboy.

    (Are you trying your hardest to make sure you really, really deserve the banhammer before it falls?)

  116. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    -But don’t we grant a certain amount of authority to police? Who then have a certain amount of discretion in whether they can or should use lethal force in certain situations?

    NO, YOU SERVILE SCUM!

    The idea that use of lethal force could possibly have been justified when faced with an unarmed teenager is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence. It affects a rebuttable presumption of facial absurdity. Holding a fucking trial to see if that presumption is rebutted is the least we should do.

  117. shockna says

    Acting like a know-it-all, self-indulged 2 year old doesn’t really help your case.

    Quite right. So stop demanding that everyone talk only in ways that you find acceptable, much like a know-it-all, self-indulgent 2 year old. Easy enough.

    Does the fact that he was an unarmed black teen mean that it should have proceeded to trial? (I don’t believe so)

    Given the undeniable institutional racism against black people in America, why the fuck shouldn’t it have?

  118. chimera says

    Luke Rudkowski ‏@Lukewearechange 1m1 minute ago

    Protesters in New York City have just stopped traffic on the Triboro bridge

  119. throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble says

    Of course the right wing is going to fingerwave over the looting and mayhem going on. I really don’t want to read that shit. My friend on FarceBook, who also thought GZ was totally innocent of all wrongdoing also, was “legitimately concerned” with the “innocent children” that were brought to the protests knowing that they would get violent. Not a damn word before this about innocent children being gunned down by cops, of course.

  120. Lofty says

    -But don’t we grant a certain amount of authority to police? Who then have a certain amount of discretion in whether they can or should use lethal force in certain situations? Does the fact that he was an unarmed black teen mean that it should have proceeded to trial? (I don’t believe so) The grand jury obviously didn’t think so, and I would think that they knew what to look for when making that determination.

    In any civilised country (this excludes the US of A) a policeman who shoots an unarmed citizen in cold blood at a distance of 145 feet while running away gets to face justice automatically. In the US he gets a fucking medal.

  121. chimera says

    Tef Poe/FootKlan ‏@TefPoe 27m27 minutes ago

    LIVE from West Florissant had to protect our own office tonight police tried to invade us but didn’t have a…

  122. Rob Grigjanis says

    numerobis @75:

    The only cop punishment I ever heard of here…

    Not sure if you mean Quebec or Canada, but there is the shooting of Sammy Yatim in Toronto, for which the officer in question has been charged with second-degree murder and attempted murder. He is out on bail, and on administrative duty.

  123. chimera says

    MCU St. Louis ‏@MCUStLouis 4m4 minutes ago

    Greater St. Mark’s Church in #Ferguson is also open, safe, and free of police, if protesters/clergy need sanctuary. Confirmed just now.

  124. throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble says

    Johnnyboy @131

    The grand jury obviously didn’t think so, and I would think that they knew what to look for when making that determination.

    HAHAHA. OH WOW, YOU’RE SERIOUS?! Such faith in the system… I mean, that can’t be the only reason you think they did the right thing. Supreme Court says that all a cop has to do is mention that they felt their life was in ‘imminent danger’ and that’s pretty much a free pass. Couple this with a prosecutor who drank at the local Irish pub with his besty Governor Nixon….

    You know what, I’m not buying such wide-eyed naiveté.

  125. chimera says

    Langston Hughes ‏@langston_poems Nov 23

    Help me to shatter this darkness, To smash this night, To break this shadow Into a thousand lights of sun, Into a thousand whirling dreams

  126. says

    That court had a chance to fix things. Instead the fix was in and it’s courting disaster.

    One young man was used as target practice and deliberately murdered without any justification, and now an entire community might face the same violent acts when their peaceful protests are deemed “illegal” or cops invent or seek an excuse to attack without provocation. Almost certainly Wilson wasn’t the only cop in Ferguson harbouring that attitude toward black people. How many more people are going to be murdered for fun this time, and then be blamed for “causing their own deaths”?

    I wouldn’t put it past Wilson to demand reinstatement just so he can show his face on those streets with protection and carry the attitude “I got away with it, and I could do it again.”

  127. chimera says

    Tiffany Gill, Ph.D ‏@SableVictorian 6m6 minutes ago

    Ponder this: Emmett Till’s murderers got indicted. In Mississippi. In 1955. Black life isn’t even worth a trial in 2014.

  128. says

    carlie (#18) –

    It’s very rare for a grand jury to fail to indict… unless it’s a cop.

    Thirty years on, what The Clash said remains true:

    Know your rights, all three of them
    Number 1: You have the right not to be killed
    Murder is a crime…unless it is done by a policeman or aristocrat

  129. chimera says

    Rob Crilly ‏@robcrilly 11s11 seconds ago

    RT @psneeze: FAA impose a no-fly zone over Ferguson. Yep, that’ll keep away those pesky TV news helicopters.

  130. Ichthyic says

    Acting like a know-it-all, self-indulged 2 year old doesn’t really help your case. Are YOU really so fucking stupid as to not understand this?

    projection is a word you need to familiarize yourself with.

    banhammer for mansplainer please?

  131. Gen, Uppity Ingrate and Ilk says

    Oh, man, I wish I could arrange it so you received no consideration from law enforcement whatsoever. None. That would be great.

    So, thesoftmachine at 127, am I to take it you are fine with police gunning down an unarmed teenager and shooting him multiple times?

  132. see_the_galaxy says

    This is wrong and unjust. Focus anger towards enduring change. Organize, remember, learn. Conservatives would love nothing more than to encourage violent protests, to lock more people up and discredit protests. But find a protest and join it; what power most fears and most desperately attacks is coordinated resistance. They do not care if we all grumble to ourselves…

  133. chimera says

    1 minute ago
    Police have surrounded protesters on the Triborough Bridge and are not letting them leave #ferguson

  134. ChasCPeterson says

    I’m white. I do not trust the police any more, and do not regard them as my friends.

    I’m white. I haven’t trusted the police, nor regarded them as my friends, since I was 17 (1976). That’s when they started hassling me, and they have not let up since. But none of them have ever tried to kill me.

  135. Ichthyic says

    Organize, remember, learn.

    oh, how I wish that actually would happen.

    it won’t. it’s right, it even sounds good, but people won’t do it. We had our shot at a counterculture revolution in the 60s.

    we saw something shiny and got distracted.

  136. Hj Hornbeck says

    Some highlights:

    [pg. 205, 11]
    Q: [Ms. Whirley] Did you carry a taser?
    A: [Darren Wilson] No.
    Q: Why not?
    A: I normally don’t carry a taser. We only have a select amount. Usually there is one available, but I usually elect not to carry one. It is not the most comfortable thing. They are very large, I don’t have a lot of room in the front for it to be positioned.

    [pg. 212, 18]
    A: After he hit me, it stopped for a second. He kind of like, I remember getting hit and he kind of like grabbed and pulled, and then it stopped. […] he says, “hey man, hold these.”
    Q; So you start out with Cigarillos in his right hand?
    A: Correct.
    Q; At this point they are in his left hand?
    A: Correct.
    […]
    A: And he said, “hey man, hold these.” And at that point I tried to hold his right arm because it was like this at my car. This is my car window. I tried to hold his right arm and use my left hand to get out to have some type of control and not be trapped in my car any more. And when I grabbed him, the only I can describe it is I felt like a five-year-old holding onto Hulk Hogan.
    Q: Holding onto a what?
    A: Hulk Hogan, that’s just how big he felt and how small I felt just from grasping his arm.

  137. chimera says

    Gotta start my day. One last message. Protests are happening now in Seattle, Oakland and L.A. California, New York, Philadelphia, Chicago and D.C.

  138. Hj Hornbeck says

    [pg. 216, 22]
    Q: I have a few other questions while we are waiting on [photos]. So during the time that he’s, you said Michael Brown is striking you in the face through the car door?
    A: Right.
    Q: And it was your opinion that you needed to pull out your weapon because why did you feel that way, I don’t want to put words in your mouth?
    A: I felt that another one of those punches in my face could knock me out or worse. I mean it was, he’s obviously bigger than I was and stronger and the, I’ve already taken two to the face and I didn’t think I would, the third could be fatal if he hit me right.

    Also leaked: photos of the 6’4″ Darren Wilson, taken just after the incident. Photos that include shots of his face.

  139. chimera says

    Paul Hampel ‏@phampel 5m5 minutes ago

    Antonio French’s #HealStl community outreach center off W Flor is burning.

  140. woozy says

    But don’t we grant a certain amount of authority to police? Who then have a certain amount of discretion in whether they can or should use lethal force in certain situations?

    That’s because we are supposed to trust the police because they have presumably earned our trust and they are, supposedly, fully accountable to us, the public they serve.

    But the system is utterly broken and the police have failed us time after time again.

    Does the fact that he was an unarmed black teen mean that it should have proceeded to trial? (I don’t believe so)

    The fact that he is dead does. I mean, doesn’t it? I mean, dead citizen. Questionable circumstances. Of course it deserves an effing trial. Doesn’t it?

  141. says

    Wasn’t enough evidence to convict/send to jury trial. Don’t assault police officers and try n take their guns. They’re still human beings and WILL respond aggressively. Black, white, brown, or blue. Doesn’t matter what your skin color is.

    [Nope. Not going to let you motherfucking racists babble here. You’re gone. –pzm]

    “Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well, that’s horsepuckey, of course. We are not entitled to our opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions. Without research, without background, without understanding, it’s nothing. It’s just bibble-babble. It’s like a fart in a wind tunnel folks.”

    — Harlan Ellison

  142. chimera says

    TheAnonMessage ‏@TheAnonMessage 35m35 minutes ago

    BREAKING: Three main New York City bridges have been shut down. #Ferguson

  143. shockna says

    US cops don’t get any hand-to-hand fight training?

    I’m pretty sure they do, but since they’re allowed to go to lethal force the instant they feel threatened, and since most juries take a cop’s word as holy scripture, they never really use it.

  144. says

    Wow… a scit-fi/fantasy author said something?

    EVERYONE QUICK!
    It’s an important life lesson! Pay Attention!!!!

    If you don’t we throw you out the airlock. Makes for a polite society.

  145. A. Noyd says

    Ichthyic (#15)

    your justice system… evidently nobody there knows HOW IT FUCKING WORKS any more.

    And how deep does the ignorance go if no one bats a fucking eyelash while the motherfucking prosecutor explains in detail how he used a grand jury to indict the witnesses/evidence and convict the murder victim?

  146. lochaber says

    Exactly how big does an officer have to be before they feel they have the upper hand with an unarmed opponent.

    About now it’s sounding like 8’10 and 560lbs or so…

  147. shockna says

    About now it’s sounding like 8’10 and 560lbs or so…

    That’s nowhere near enough! They also need psychic powers, and skin made of steel. Anything less and they’re clearly justified in shooting first and asking questions never.

  148. lochaber says

    I mean, Wilson is only 6’4, he’s so tiny he needs to sit on phone books to see out the window of his cruiser…

  149. Hj Hornbeck says

    [pg. 224, 30]
    A: After seeing the blood on my hand, I looked at him and he was, this is my car door, he was here and he kind of stepped back and went like this.
       And then after he did that, he looked up at me and had the most intense aggressive face. The only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon, that’s how angry he looked. He comes back towards me again with his hands up.
       At that point I just went like this, I tried to pull the trigger again, click, nothing happened.
    Q: When you say he came back up to you with his hands up, describe to us what he is doing?
    A: Last thing I saw was this coming at me.
    Q: Was it a fist?
    A: I just saw his hands up, I don’t know if they were closed yet, on the way to going closed, I saw this and that face coming at me again, and I just went like this and I shielded my face.

    [pg. 227, 33]
    A: He turns, and when he looked at me, he made like a grunting, like aggravated sound and he starts, he turns and he’s coming back towards me. His first step is coming towards me, he kind of does like a stutter step to start running. When he does that, his left hand goes in a fist and goes to his side, his right one goes under his shirt in his waistband and he starts running at me.
    Q: You say under his shirt?
    A: Yes.
    Q: Was he wearing a shirt that was longer than his waistband?
    A: Yes, ma’am.
    Q: So he goes up under the shirt?
    A: Yes.
    Q: Okay. Go ahead.
    A: That was all done, like I said, the first step, his first stride coming back towards me. As he is coming towards me, I tell, keep telling him to get on the ground, he doesn’t. I shoot a series of shots. I don’t know how many I shot, I just know I shot it.
       I know I missed a couple, I don’t know how many, but I know I hit him at least once because I saw his body kind of jerk or flenched.
       I remember having tunnel vision on his right hand, that’s all, I’m just focusing on that hand when I was shooting.
       Well, after the last shot my tunnel vision kind of opened up. I remember seeing the smoke from the gun and I kind of looked at him and he’s still coming at me, he hadn’t slowed down.
       At this point I start backpedaling and again, I tell him get on the ground, get on the ground, he doesn’t. I shoot another round of shots. Again, I don’t recall how many it was or if I hit him every time. I know at least once because he flinched again.
       At this point it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots, like it was making him mad that I’m shooting at him.
       And the face that he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn’t even there, I wasn’t even anything in his way.
       Well, he keeps coming at me after that again, during the pause I tell him to get on the ground, get on the ground, he still keeps coming at me, gets about 8 to 10 feet away. At this point I’m backing up pretty rapidly, I’m backpedaling pretty good because I know if he reaches me, he’ll kill me.

    Hmm, so Wilson claims two shots went off in the car, and twelve shots were fired in total. So Mike Brown charged Darren Willson, with one hand never leaving his waistband, and keeps charging without slowing down despite having ten shots fired at him, until he’s within ten feet?

    I don’t find this terribly convincing.

  150. Ichthyic says

    I don’t find this terribly convincing.

    no offense, but it’s irrelevant. A grand jury NEVER should have even heard this testimony; that kind of thing belongs in a courtroom, not a grand jury hearing.

    this whole fucking thing is just rotten. Please, don’t bother posting testimony, it’s irrelevant, aggravating, and any of us can read it for ourselves by going to any of the dozens of links about it.

  151. Goblinman says

    Thoughts:

    1. Sickened, angry, unsurprised.

    2. More proof that libertarians are useless. This is their exact nightmare, and where the fuck have they been?

    3. I’ve noticed, lately, that when I’m out late at night, in nice white neighborhoods, with one of my friends who is black, I’ve been feeling this twinge of worry that I shouldn’t let him out of my sight lest he run into a cop or a neighborhood watchman. I tell myself I’m just being paranoid.

  152. Hj Hornbeck says

    [pg. 233, 39]
    Q: Okay. All right. And at some point you say Michael Brown does turn around?
    A: Yes, ma’am.
    Q: Any idea what happened to make him turn around or he just all of the sudden turns around?
    A: No, just turns around. His whole reaction to the whole thing was something I’ve never seen. I’ve never seen that much aggression so quickly from a simple request to just walk on the sidewalk.

    Right, so: two shots go off in the car accidentally, while (according to Darren Wilson) Mike Brown is attempting to grab for the gun. Brown runs away at this, and Wilson thinks a bullet may have gone through the car and struck Brown… but Brown turns around when asked to walk on the sidewalk? Knowing Wilson probably has a firearm with at least half a clip left?

    [pg. 236, 42]
    Q: In your mind him grabbing the gun is what made the difference where you felt you had to use a weapon to stop him?
    A: Yes. Once he was hitting me in the face, that enough, was in my mind to authorize the use of force.
    Q: Okay. So if he would not have grabbed your gun while he was hitting you in the face, everything was the same, but he would not have grabbed the gun, you still would have used deadly force?
    A: My gun was already being presented as a deadly force option while he was hitting me in the face.

    Ok, fine, if you’re trapped in a car with someone hitting you and trying to grab for your gun, I can see firing back as a legit defense. But according to his testimony, Wilson only intentionally fired when Brown was charging at him without knowing if Brown had any weapon at all. That’s well after he was punched in the face, when he faced no immediate harm, which trashes his justification for deadly force.

    Cripes, this is worse than I thought.

  153. lochaber says

    Granted, I’m not exactly trained, but if some one were to reach through an open window to grab me while in a running vehicle, I think the two things that would come to mind would be:

    Drive the fucking vehicle 10-20 feet away.

    or, alternatively, grab ahold of one of the arms reaching in, and use the edge of the window as a fulcrum to break it.

    Sitting in a running car does not strike me as a horribly vulnerable position when facing an unarmed assailant.

  154. says

    Damn, this is the best planned FUD campaign I think I’ve ever seen. It’s brilliant! Releasing the news hours after sundown meant both that the more organized protesters (or even anyone who had a job to go to on Tuesday) wasn’t there, and that it would be hardest for police to prevent riots. So, now with the most unruly protesters rioting you’ve got plenty of pictures to “prove” how dangerous these people are.

    Even better is the info dump they released, putting out all the testimony. With this many accounts it’ll be easy to quote-mine it for inconsistencies. So right-wing pundits have their job practically done for them! Put up some pretty pictures of cars burning in Ferguson, find the witness quote that makes Brown seem as scary as possible, maybe find a quote or two that sound contradictory, and you’ve got a perfect combination of fear and plausible uncertainty! Now we can spend the next week talking about “what went wrong” and “was there enough evidence” instead of the fact that an unarmed kid is dead.

    Heck, this is even more brilliant than paralyzing the grand jury with so much information they forget indictment doesn’t require overwhelming evidence! Good show! *slow clap*

    In all seriousness, it looks like the fix was in on this one. I’ve never seen a more flagrant abuse of the justice system in my life.

  155. says

    You know, Althusser wasn’t kidding when he filed the Police and the Court System under the Repressive State Apparatus.
    The Police kill black children again and again and again and the court system tells them it’s ok, carry on. And boosted by this they go on and kill the next black kid. Because they’re obviously so fucking dangerous that you need to shoot them on sight.
    Darren Wilson’s excuse is that he was afraid for his life? Yeah, only that this is a story the police and white supremacy created for themselves and are more than happy to believe in. I don’t give a fuck if they “honestly fear for their lives”. They are no more justified in this than people who burn women as witches or people who start screaming when they see a mouse.

    Any decent person who’s still a police officer in the USA?
    Congratulations, you’re now a member of the fucking US Wehrmacht, but YOU still have a chance to get out. You’re NOT going to change the system from within. You are NOT going to make a difference. You are just serving the vital role of the useful idiot who gets put up as the posterchild to deflect each and any criticism. “But see officer XXX, they’re not bad!”

  156. Hj Hornbeck says

    no offense, but it’s irrelevant. A grand jury NEVER should have even heard this testimony; that kind of thing belongs in a courtroom, not a grand jury hearing.

    None taken, you’re exactly right. Conflicting eyewitness testimony is more reason to bring this to trial, not less. And it’s kind of sickening that Wilson was allowed to testify at all, when the grand jury was considering the case against him.

    I’m going to punch out for the night, but Slate has a larger collection of documents, and here’s an OCR of the original PDF in need of clean-up.

  157. says

    A grand jury NEVER should have even heard this testimony; that kind of thing belongs in a courtroom, not a grand jury hearing.

    But given that they did, it’s double bullshit that they claim there wasn’t enough evidence for a trial. They’ve got forensic evidence, multiple eye witnesses and a detailed statement from the accused and they don’t even think we should bother checking if the statement fits the facts?

  158. Joe says

    @jamesrussellthe3rd

    Unless he’s a 6’4 violent thief who physically assaults smaller shopkeepers, and then also physically assaults a policeman while reaching for said cops weapon, and consistently ignores demands to stay back and stop resisting while at the same time reaching under his shirt and advancing on the cop he just assaulted then I’d say he has nothing to worry about.

    You realise that something like 3 black people are killed by cops every week in America, right? And some of them are 12 year olds? (Putting aside the fact that your taking the cops testimony as gospel while ignoring all the other eyewitnesses)

  159. says

    @jamesrussellthe3rd
    There’s so much wrong with that load of bullshit that I don’t even have time to explain it. The very quick version:
    1) You’re taking the word of an accused murderer at face value, despite the fact that his testimony hasn’t been checked against the evidence.
    2) You’re focusing on one single case, despite the fact that this is a wide-spread problem. Trayvon Martin never interacted with any cop, and he still ended up dead.

  160. Félix Desrochers-Guérin says

    Isn’t it funny how in cases like this, people who would ordinarily never, ever trust anything a defense attorney says suddenly take the defendant’s (or in this particular case, not-even-defendant-yet’s) version of events as fucking gospel?

  161. mildlymagnificent says

    And it’s kind of sickening that Wilson was allowed to testify at all, when the grand jury was considering the case against him.

    I’m amazed this hasn’t struck me before. I read an awful lot of crime fiction as bedtime reading. People seem to spend a lot of time pointing out that if you’re the accused, the bad thing about a grand jury is that you have no right to present your version of events. The fact that Wilson’s given a whole heap of evidence directly to a grand jury makes it pretty much an exceptional proceeding in the first place.

    Have I been reading the wrong authors? Or is the chaos of the American justice system such that anything might happen in any given jurisdiction?

  162. Joe says

    @jamesrussellthe3rd

    I didn’t know that. I don’t live in the U.S.A. I live in a country where we require militarised law enforcement to police us because we as a people don’t have a Marquis de Sade-like fetish for heavy weaponry. Hell, if I became a cop in the U.S.A I’d demand an M1 Abrams and that minigun out of Predator before I took on my first shift.

    Nice job avoiding my point. I don’t live in the US either, but I’m somehow still able to get a general understanding of the situation before commenting on it. Funny how that works.

    Aside from the Black witnesses who clearly stated the boy advanced on Wilson. Oh, and the 3 black jurors. They don’t count though, hey?

    Dorian Johnson:

    Brown turned around with his hands raised and said, “I don’t have a gun. Stop shooting!” Wilson then shot Brown several more times, killing him.

    Michael Brady

    Brady then ran outside with his camera phone to record the event. By the time he got outside, Brown had turned around and was facing Wilson. Brown was “balled up” with his arms under his stomach and he was “halfway down” to the ground. As he was falling, Brown took one or two steps toward Wilson because he was presumably hit and was stumbling forward; Wilson then shot him three or four times.

    Piaget Crenshaw

    Piaget Crenshaw said that, from her vantage point, it appeared that Wilson and Brown were arm wrestling before the former shot Brown from inside his vehicle. Wilson then chased Brown for about 20 feet before shooting him again. “I saw the police chase him … down the street and shoot him down.” When Brown then raised his arms, the officer shot him two more times, killing him.

    Tiffany Mitchell

    “After the shot, the kid just breaks away. The cop follows him, kept shooting, the kid’s body jerked as if he was hit. After his body jerked he turns around, puts his hands up, and the cop continues to walk up on him and continues to shoot until he goes all the way down.”

    Construction worker

    A construction worker at the nearby apartment complex, who spoke to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch on condition of anonymity, said that he saw Brown running away with Wilson 10 to 15 feet behind. About 90 feet away from the vehicle, Wilson fired a shot at Brown, whose back was turned. Brown stumbled, stopped, put his hands up and said “OK, OK, OK, OK, OK.” The worker believed Brown had been wounded. With his hands up, Brown began walking toward the officer, at which point Wilson began firing at Brown and backing away. After the third shot, Brown’s hands started going down, and he moved about 25 feet toward Wilson, who kept backing away and firing. The worker was unable to discern if Brown’s movement toward the officer was “a stumble to the ground” or “OK, I’m going to get you, you’re already shooting me.” The worker disputed the claim, by defenders of Wilson, that Brown rushed at the officer, “I don’t know if he was going after him or if he was falling down to die. It wasn’t a bull rush.”

    James McKnight

    James McKnight said he witnessed the shooting and that Brown held his hands in the air just after he turned to face Wilson. He stumbled toward the officer, but didn’t rush him, and “the officer was about six or seven feet away” from Brown.

    Phillip Walker

    Phillip Walker, a 40-year-old resident of a nearby apartment complex, said he saw Brown walking “at a steady pace” toward Wilson with his hands up and that he “did not rush the officer”, adding that Wilson’s final shot was from a distance of about four feet.

    Emanuel Freeman

    Freeman stated that Wilson fired twice at Brown while he was running away, and five more times after he turned around to face Wilson.

    (all these are taken from the Wikipedia article on the shoting, because I can’t be arsed finding better sources)

    So, what witnesses were you talking about?

  163. unclefrogy says

    I read slow and get busy with other stuff but the reaction and this thread and the understanding of some of the people here I look forward to the conservation.
    I would like to add a little bit here. I am of an age and have experienced the profiling of the police because I am not seen as someone who toes the line regardless of being white since I got out of the army in ’68.
    OK here goes. If you take it as true that this shooting was not racist and by extension the Martin shooting what do you have then? Is that better? Not to my way of thinking it looks like the police and law enforcement in general adopted over whelming force as a strategy and main tactic in maintaining order. When you can claim self defense shoot to kill and keep on shooting until you are out of ammunition.
    Across the nation every week they are using excessive force with impunity this ain’t the only one that is why I am not so upset. It is all to easy to find the case of some mentally ill person killed by half a dozen cops because he someone took his shoes the wrong house raided and people beaten. it was all a mistake or justified because reasons.
    it ain’t just racism it’s worse
    now I will go and try to read the whole thread
    uncle frogy

  164. Argent Zendik says

    The could do this: http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/OPINION/02/12/mills.egypt.selma/t1larg.mills_selma.jpg

    Instead of this: http://localtvwjw.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/jd60.jpg

    To quote some tweets I saw today:
    “When you say we should approach injustice like MLK, you’re saying we can be eloquent, smart & non-violent and still get our heads blown off.”

    “Black people, remain calm. Trust the cops who murder you, the laws that fail you, and the justice system that discriminates against you.”

    Also, go fuck yourself.

  165. says

    jamesrusselthe3rd
    Godsdamn you’re a fucking idiot and you’re the one godsdamn fucking idiot I’m going to yell at because you’re here right now.
    Those children don’t fucking “live by the sword”, they get mrudered by guns. By the guns of the Police. Their parents, their friends, their community, they know they can be shot like rabbits. They know the courts will side with their murderers. But you, from your fucking privileged safety an ocean away think you have ANY fucking idea about what they should do. You deem yourself competent to declare that any form of violence on their side is completely out of line. Because the oppressed must always be meek and turn the other cheek, right?
    I read the perfect quote on twitter for assholes like you:
    White people: What would MLK do?
    Black people: We don’t know, you murdered him!

  166. Joe says

    Well, you live by the sword you die by the sword (or glock). You want to idolise gangs, emulate their dress sense and verbiage, constantly antagonise cops and act like a thug then don’t be surprised when you’re chewing on 9mm gum.

    Do I need to point out (again) that one of the people killed by the police was 12 years old? Not that any of the things you listed deserve a death sentence, you racist fuck.

  167. Argent Zendik says

    “You know, this looks to me like they already DIDD THAT and their kids are still getting shot.”

    Well, you live by the sword you die by the sword (or glock). You want to idolise gangs, emulate their dress sense and verbiage, constantly antagonise cops and act like a thug then don’t be surprised when you’re chewing on 9mm gum.
    Oh okay you’re just a racist. Never mind, not going to engage.

  168. Argent Zendik says

    And I keep fucking up my blockquotes because I’m half asleep… let’s try this again:
    @jamesrussellthe3rd aka “racist piece of human excrement”

    The could do this: http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/OPINION/02/12/mills.egypt.selma/t1larg.mills_selma.jpg

    Instead of this: http://localtvwjw.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/jd60.jpg

    To quote some tweets I saw today:
    “When you say we should approach injustice like MLK, you’re saying we can be eloquent, smart & non-violent and still get our heads blown off.”

    “Black people, remain calm. Trust the cops who murder you, the laws that fail you, and the justice system that discriminates against you.”

    Also, go fuck yourself.

    “You know, this looks to me like they already DIDD THAT and their kids are still getting shot.”

    Well, you live by the sword you die by the sword (or glock). You want to idolise gangs, emulate their dress sense and verbiage, constantly antagonise cops and act like a thug then don’t be surprised when you’re chewing on 9mm gum.

    Oh okay you’re just a racist. Never mind, not going to engage.

  169. lochaber says

    fuck off racist troll

    and if you find “idiot” offensive, stop being a willfully ignorant racist asshole.

    You are making assumptions about a group based on race, the textbook definition of “racist”

  170. Joe says

    He obviously wasn’t asking for it but…well….what else can you call it?

    Really, that’s what you are going with – he wasn’t asking for it, but, well, he was asking for it. He was a 12 year old kid playing with a toy (whether you think it should be legal or not is irrelevent, it is legal in the US), and for that he died. Do you not see the racism inherent in this:

    wouldn’t you think they would have the sense to make sure one of their BLACK children was never put into a position whereby he could be misidentified holding an ultra-realistic looking pistol?

    A white kid can play around, but if you’re black, you better watch out? It’s the “but what was she wearing” argument all over again.

  171. Snoof says

    jamesrussellthe3rd @213

    I know you don’t agree, but please don’t yell. Where are we as a species when we can’t even discuss things without yelling at each other, this is what gets me.

    So it’s fine to say that children getting murdered by the police is OK (“live by the sword, die by the sword”) but expressing actual emotion is just unacceptable discourse?

    Fuck you. Fuck you and the high horse you rode on.

  172. Argent Zendik says

    I know you don’t agree, but please don’t yell. Where are we as a species when we can’t even discuss things without yelling at each other, this is what gets me.

    Also, calling me an idiot is extremely offensive. I’ve been diagnosed as having an IQ below the average range, and my brother is also a Savant (not IDIOT Savant, as many people used to call them). I find what you said ableist – please check your privilege before throwing around such triggering terms.

    Fuck off, racist.

    He obviously wasn’t asking for it but…well….what else can you call it?

    Fuck off, racist.

    “You are making assumptions about a group based on race, the textbook definition of “racist””

    You mean like this?

    “White people: What would MLK do?
    Black people: We don’t know, you murdered him!””

    I love how people throw around the term racist when someone doesn’t agree with them. For the record, I’m 1/16 black

    Fuck off, racist.

    People are calling you racist because what you’re saying is racist. But oh please, tell me how white people suffer so terribly from racism, and also how you’re actually 1/16(!!!) black, and have a below average IQ, and how we’re actually the racist and also ableist ones for not listening to your paint-huffingly moronic screed and seeing how utterly reasonable it is.

    Uh-huh.

    You’re sounding exactly like you’re from /pol/. Are we gonna see “#notyourshield” next and hear about how you’re also a woman so you can’t be a misogynist? I want to know what else to expect.

  173. brucegorton says

    IMO the tendency of certain parties to see this tragedy as primarily as racially motivated and driven, and to make the victim out to be a saint, has largely discredited the people who spoke too soon.

    This statement pisses me off, and I actually think the fuck-brains who say this sort of thing are actually worse than the shooters.

    What this statement tells me about you is you believe that the right not to get shot to death by a cop is contingent on being a saint.

    It is not about the merits of the case to this sort of asshat, but the merits of the victim. It is precisely the same sort of reasoning behind people who think a mini-skirt is an open invite to rape.

    It is disgusting in its entirety, and it maintains an unjust system whereby killing a black person is considered self-defence. It is precisely the sort of thinking that makes this sort of thing happen.

  174. says

    jamesrusselthe3rd

    I know you don’t agree, but please don’t yell. Where are we as a species when we can’t even discuss things without yelling at each other, this is what gets me.

    Also, calling me an idiot is extremely offensive.

    You find me offensive? Good!
    I like to piss off the right kid of people.
    Racist assholes who blame a kid for his own murder by the police are quite high on the list of people I want to piss off right now.
    You’re the problem. You’re as much, if not more the problem than Daren Wilson is.

  175. says

    I didn’t know that. I don’t live in the U.S.A.

    Maybe that’s why you clearly don’t understand one important thing. This was NOT a murder trial. (Or a negligent homicide trial, or a manslaughter trial, etc.)

    This was a Grand Jury hearing to determine if there was a possibility that a crime may have been committed.
    if so, if there was evidence that there might have been a crime committed, – say for example, an unarmed 18 year old was shot multiple times… or say for example that eyewitness testimony was contradictory rather than absolutely conclusive – then they were to to send it to trial.

    A trial, so that that trial, and a jury of Wilson’s peers, could determine if a crime HAD been committed.

    They didn’t do that.
    All of that talk of yours? About evidence? About where the evidence looks like it lead? About which witnesses were more believable?

    That’s all stuff that a TRIAL was supposed to determine.

    A trial. Something that never happened. Something that this panel decided there was no HINT might even be necessary.
    No trial necessary. No possibility that any crime could have been committed. No need for a jury to hear the case. No need for a prosecution and a defense to square off. No need for two sides to present adversarial cases, as is done in our criminal justice system to determine guilt or lack of guilt.

    No need for that determinative process to take place.

    Do you get it now?

  176. says

    Ah you know, there’s always something the victim did wrong.
    They had a toy, they wore ahoodie, the got into a traffic accident, they were in the posession of a bag of Skittles, they were listening to music, some years ago they smoked weed and when they were 8 they out a frog into their teacher’s bag. Anything that justifies the fact that they were unarmed kids who got murdered by armed men.

  177. Bernard Bumner says

    Yeah gun-worshipping thugs like unarmed, fleeing Mike Brown or twelve-year-old Tamir Rice (who failed to put his hands up and drop the ‘gun’ he wasn’t holding) being shot by police is their own fault because of.

    Reasons.

    Probably we should just shoot on sight because of live by the sword, die by the sword . I mean as long as the police have reasonable suspicion that there might be a sword. Reasonable suspicion, like the citizen suspect being black. Black = gun worshipping thug. Obviously.

    The great circular clusterfuck which is racists with power and guns.

    Seriously, Darren Wilson’s most ardent defenders should have wished for this to come to trial. This outcome can only lead to more violence.

    Not enough evidence to indict? Not enough evidence in the world.

    Fuck racism.

  178. says

    Well, let’s be realistic here. It’s better that he was stopped before he got older and traded in the airsoft for an actual pistol. It was pretty much a matter of time based on the fact that he obviously had sub-standard parenting, as well as an obvious intellectual deficiency (I mean, not putting a gun down (real or not) when ordered to by an policeman? Not the sharpest grill on the teeth).

    Holy fuck, why did I even fucking respond to you, you racist piece of shit?

    GET the FUCK back to Stormfront you fucking Grand Imperial Wazoo.

  179. Argent Zendik says

    I don’t suffer from racism at all. I’m aware of the issues and, believe it or not, check my privilege daily. You, however, are so obviously ableist and misogynistic (it’s triggering to even tell you this but I’m dual system and one side identifies strongly as a Peruvian woman) that I’m not going to converse with you any longer.

    If you’re just going to call me racist because you disagree with me then, I pity you. You are missing out on the diversity and cultural enrichment of interpersonal exchange because you don’t want to have your world-view challenged by anyone who disagrees with you. That’s as far away from social justice as you can get, and I’m sorry you feel that way.

    Thank you for proving my point.

    Like, I could actually go through and highlight all the explicitly and implicitly racist parts of the posts you made, and I was going to do that, but you just went and showed that you’re a racist troll seeking attention and have no intention of having any sort of meaningful dialogue.

    So, for the last time, fuck off, you racist fuckstain.

  180. noogai131 says

    http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/official-autopsy-shows-michael-brown-had-close-range-wound-to/article_e98a4ce0-c284-57c9-9882-3fb7df75fef6.html
    http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/stltoday.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/e0/ce018d0c-5998-11e4-b700-001a4bcf6878/5447202ea9b4e.pdf.pdf

    Oh, would you look at that, evidence!

    What do you know? Who would have thought that a jury that failed to indict due to overwhelming evidence and testimony to the contrary, might actually have evidence to read!

    You are all a bunch of brainwashed idiots. If I had to rate you on a scale of stupidity ranging one to ten I would be afraid that you’d try to lick the fucking scale.

  181. Bernard Bumner says

    Fuck you, jamesrusselthe3rd. Fuck you for trying to make this thread about you.

    Fuck you for complaining about swearing instead of complaining about dead children and people having to fear the state in which they live because they are poor and black.

    You narcissist. You racist.

  182. shockna says

    Well, let’s be realistic here. It’s better that he was stopped before he got older and traded in the airsoft for an actual pistol. It was pretty much a matter of time based on the fact that he obviously had sub-standard parenting, as well as an obvious intellectual deficiency (I mean, not putting a gun down (real or not) when ordered to by an policeman? Not the sharpest grill on the teeth).

    What the fuck? I’ve seen all sorts of shitty things during my time reading Pharyngula, but actually advocating for child murder? Fucking done.

    If someone hasn’t already, I’d say it’s past time for a monitor note to PZ. This vile shitstain needs to go.

  183. noogai131 says

    >What the fuck? I’ve seen all sorts of shitty things during my time reading Pharyngula, but actually advocating for child murder? Fucking done.

    >Child murder

    He was 18 years old. That’s not a child, in most countries that is considered an adult.

    You misinformed piece of shit.

  184. Bernard Bumner says

    noogai131, writes about evidence but ignores the other autopsy, and fails to acknowledge that the evi dense was not tested in a trial.

    People here have read every scrap available.

  185. shockna says

    @noogai131:

    I know reading comprehension isn’t your thing, but I was commenting on the fucking 12 year old with an airsoft gun who was murdered by police in Cleveland, not Michael Brown.

  186. Bernard Bumner says

    So, jamesrusselthe3rd only came here to troll? Great. You racist arsehole. You really proved a point. Racist. Arsehole.

  187. noogai131 says

    I gave the OFFICIAL STATE REPORT. The official fucking report, and even an unofficial one. I posted a bread crumb of evidence here hoping some of you would have half a brain and would follow it. Some of you have said “oh he was running” and that is bullshit because the autopsies clearly show entry wounds to the front of the body, and there being evidence of a scuffle inside the car, and there were bloody fingerprints found on the officers sidearm that were found to be those of Mike Brown.

    I don’t care if they weren’t tested in a trial, the evidence is still there.

    Also, the “eye-witnesses” that spoke against the police officer changed their stories multiple times, and their stories were found to be incorrect compared to the autopsy reports.

    You guys are wrong, plain and simple. You are having a knee-jerk reaction because a black guy was shot and you don’t like it.

  188. Argent Zendik says

    @noogai131
    And he still fired on Michael Brown more than six times, while he was 140+ yards away, and… there still should have been a trial.

    That’s the purpose of a trial. To determine guilt. The Grand Jury exists to determine if a trial should proceed. It should have. If there was enough evidence that the Grand Jury took so long, had so many conflicting eye witness reports, and for some reason the person who should have been being indicted got to testify.

    There was no trial. There should be a trial. But fuckheads like you insist that because the victim tried to grab at the gun (that hasn’t been confirmed, despite the physical evidence), and the victim allegedly committed a robbery earlier, he deserved to be gunned down from range and the officer who did it should not be charged so that his guilt or innocence in committing murder can be determined.

    He’s a cop, and he insists it was self-defense to shoot at this unarmed black teen from 400+ feet away, and God help you, you accept that and find a trial totally unnecessary. But we’re the brainwashed idiots.

    Just keep shoveling that shit down your throat, mate.

  189. shockna says

    Aside from the glaringly obvious name I’ve picked for myself I really didn’t think I’d get to “identifies strongly as a Peruvian woman” before you caught on

    You give yourself far too much credit. You were obvious from the start.

  190. Argent Zendik says

    And I see now you’re also ignoring the exit wounds to the front of the chest the autopsy lists… because I guess they don’t fit the narrative you like.

  191. noogai131 says

    I love how you can say “there’s no evidence to support the fact that there was a close range altercation” and then straight up say, without any evidence to support your statement, that he was shot from 140+yards.

    I’ve provided my evidence an documentation, along with a new report that gives multiple quotes from professionals, where’s yours, you giant shit eating mongoloid?

    [Bye, you flaming apologist for racism. –pzm]

  192. Bernard Bumner says

    You don’t care that the evidence wasn’t tested? You don’t care that nobody had a chance to question how that evidence was gathered or whether the interpretation was correct? You don’t care that witnesses weren’t cross examined? You don’t care that counter-evidence was not seen? You don’t care that contradictory witnesses weren’t examined?

    You don’t care that two months of evidence and testimony weren’t considered to be sufficient to merit a trial?

    But of course, you have no agenda.

  193. Great American Satan says

    I don’t think this has been definitively proven, but it seems like a neurotypical human mind has an inherent need for justice – or a sense of equity that is favorable to it. I can’t remember a time when I didn’t know and use the sentence “That’s not fair!”

    It has been argued – I think even by Dawkins – that a possible motivation for religion is the existence of injustice in the world. Someone a little more old-timey and wacky (don’t remember my dead philosophers well) said that injustice was proof that the afterlife must be real.

    So it’s times like this when I feel that the most. I wish there was a hell for proud racists. We’re all prone to biases and isms, I recognize racist feelings in myself sometimes. But there’s a big difference between that and being the kind of heartless fuckface that can skate through life feeling superior to entire classes of human based on bullshit.

    Eternal torture doesn’t do justice to what I want for you scumbags. Eat all of the shit there is. Fuck off to some other planet of assholes, so you can wallow in that debased mental state you so love without bothering us.

    Let our species live up to its potential, instead of hammering home the point over and over and over again that we are no better than a gibbering ape-pile that will let its venality and self-interest drive us whining and bawling into extinction. Seriously, just fuck you fucks fucking forever. You’re the only reason humanism fails as a philosophy – because humanity includes you.

  194. shockna says

    Says a lot about the people who have actually bothered to seriously respond to me for the last hour or so, doesn’t it?

    Not at all, dumbass. We don’t do “don’t feed the trolls” around these parts.

  195. Argent Zendik says

    >What the fuck? I’ve seen all sorts of shitty things during my time reading Pharyngula, but actually advocating for child murder? Fucking done.

    >Child murder

    He was 18 years old. That’s not a child, in most countries that is considered an adult.

    You misinformed piece of shit.

    They’re referring to the 12 year old black child who was shot to death for having an airsoft gun. But, y’know, reading comprehension is difficult when you’re busy doing your best to defend racist murdering cops. I get it.

    Nice greentext. Another visitor from /pol/?

    I love how you can say “there’s no evidence to support the fact that there was a close range altercation” and then straight up say, without any evidence to support your statement, that he was shot from 140+yards.

    I’ve provided my evidence an documentation, along with a new report that gives multiple quotes from professionals, where’s yours, you giant shit eating mongoloid?

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/20/1346374/-BREAKING-VIDEO-Police-Lied-Mike-Brown-was-killed-148-feet-away-from-Darren-Wilson-s-SUV

    I didn’t deny that there was a close range altercation, I merely said that we only have Darren Wilson’s testimony as to how that altercation occured. But keep on trucking, you piece of shit. Keep on defending murdering cops.

  196. Bernard Bumner says

    jamesrussellthe3rd – because stupid racists deserve to be called stupid racists, even whilst you wank off about how clever you are. Racist narcissist troll idiot.

    Enjoy your ban.

  197. Argent Zendik says

    @noogai131
    You’re right, I misread, the autopsy doesn’t list any exit wounds on Mike Brown’s chest.

    And you’ve still yet to make any case as to why he shouldn’t have been indicted.

    But hey, while we’re talking about things, let’s talk about the Prosecutor, Robert McColloch. The guy whose job it was to get the Grand Jury to indict Darren Wilson

    He’s part of an organization that helped raise money to support Darren Wilson: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43839_Is_St._Louis_County_Prosecutor_Robert_McCulloch_Helping_Raise_Money_for_Ofc._Darren_Wilson

    He has a history of failing to indict police officers, lying about the events of Grand Jury, using Grand Jury to expose whistleblowers, and has failed to present evidence at GJ that would have helped to induct police officers: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43839_Is_St._Louis_County_Prosecutor_Robert_McCulloch_Helping_Raise_Money_for_Ofc._Darren_Wilson

    He’s from a family of police officers. His father was a police officer who was shot by a black man. He was the prosecution, and he did everything in his power to make sure Darren Wilson was not indicted and that there will be no trial, despite the fact that the preponderance of physical evidence and conflicting eye-witness testimonies are more than grounds enough for there to be a trial to determine exactly what happened.

    If you’d rather do away with all that, dismiss Michael Brown as a thug who deserved to die, and think it’s okay that a cop is walking away with half a million dollars for shooting a black man to death, you’re probably a racist, and you’re definitely a piece of shit.

  198. Argent Zendik says

    @jamesrussellthe3rd
    No lie, I would smile if somebody shot you.
    But I’d still want them to go on trial for it.

  199. Argent Zendik says

    Wanting minorities to be equal = fetish
    Smiling at the thought of a sarcastic racist who thinks it’s funny to make light of a murder getting shot = satisfaction at the pain of white people

    yup sure whatever buddy

    you sure got me

    i’m anti-white

    you white people disgust me
    also men
    i hate men

    with their penises

    white men with penises that they’ve had since birth are the worst

    clearly i hate you because you’re one of those

    and NOT because you’re a smug piece of shit who is too cool to CARE about stuff

    everyone knows caring about stuff (especially stuff that doesn’t effect you personally) is for losers

    but also if you did care about stuff, you wouldn’t talk about it, you’d go fighting in the street or something!?!?

    but if you do that you’re a thug who deserves to be shot.

    See, now you’ve got me all confused. Possibly because you don’t even understand your own stance and you’re just here to talk shit and laugh at all the people who have empathy. It must be nice having the emotional maturity of a twelve year old.

  200. fernando says

    The use of excessive force (lethal or not) by a police force is something to:
    1st: being stopped,
    2nd: being punished,
    3rd: take measures to that don’t happen again.
    I think that all good citizens, in Europe or the USA, or in any other place in the world, will agree with that.

    But the chaos that is going on in Ferguson is something terrible. Terrible because of two things: destroy the property and business of innocent people and make (in my opinion) many people that didn’t had a definitive opinion about all issue, to side with the suporters of the use of excessive force by police, just because of the scenes of burning and loting in Ferguson – “see? all of them are criminals: burning and destroying! the police should act harder to them!” – and mistake the great majority of peaceful protesters with the handful (but very active and destructive) criminals that are destroying buildings in that town..

  201. says

    If by some strange miracle in an alternative universe he is indicted on federal civil rights charges will the district attorney that engineered this farce be indicted as well?

  202. Bernard Bumner says

    @ Argent Zendik,
    Please don’t. Even in frustration.

    @jamesrussellthe3rd,
    Boring racist narcissist.

    When I said “enjoy your ban” I really meant it. I mean that is the shiny bauble you covert, isn’t it?

    You pathetic Internet Tough Guy.

  203. jennyjfwlucy says

    Damn, JamesRussell. You’re like a kid who came here to spread poop on the wall and is laughing because no one caught you earlier. The really sad part for you is that there is a whole world out there of people who have better things to do than spread poop on the wall, and you’ll never know it or be part of them. Just a little kid filled up with hate, jealousy, and poop.

  204. jennyjfwlucy says

    “Fuck you, I’m not filled up with hate and jealousy.” BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH! The irony of you having to type that out is totally lost on you, isn’t it?

  205. Bernard Bumner says

    Seriously, fight me in real life. I’m 5th dan black belt in Tae Bo. Bring it on, I will destroy you and everything you hold dear. 1v1 me faget.

    You are really quite pathetic.

  206. azhael says

    If only I could be as good and useful as you :)

    Yeah, if only you could make any attempt to try and be somewhat of a decent human being. Instead you are hellbent on being the biggest fucking arsehole you can. Good for you, i’m sure you feel all rebellious and shit for the disgusting shit you say. Does it make you feel like a big boy?

    Fuck off you bigoted, hateful, ignorant waste of oxygen.

  207. azhael says

    I’m not joking, I’m deadly serious. I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills…

    I smell someone with a serious complex about the size of his genitals.

  208. says

    I’m disabled… unemployable… almost totally deaf at this point, antisocial, and my physical problems keep me in the house most of the time.
    I have a poverty-level income, no TV, can’t listen to music (obviously) etc. etc.

    And still I have an almost infinite number of things to do with my time rather than be a racist troll on the internet.
    Or tell people I’ll never possibly meet how I’m such a tough guy and could, like totally kick their ass and shit.

    Jamesorwhateveryournameis, I’m being honest here… my life is pretty damned pathetic.
    And yet I’ve still not fallen to your level.

    The only thing I can figure is that somewhere inside there’s something making you feel incredibly, miserably insecure.
    Perhaps it’s whatever little ability to discern reality you’ve somehow retained.

  209. Seven of Mine: Shrieking Feminist Harpy says

    I’m not joking, I’m deadly serious. I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills…

    How exactly does you being serious about any of this make you any less pathetic for threatening total strangers with it because they…what? Because they disagree with you? What we’re doing is so useless and yet here you are boasting about how very very tough and dangerous you are trying to get us to stop all this nothing we’re doing.

  210. Bernard Bumner says

    I’m not joking, I’m deadly serious. I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills…

    Boring.

    Racist.

    Narcissist.

    Doesn’t care about injustice. Does care about waving his dick around on the Internet.

    You’re lucky that I’m no longer a Robot Ninja who beat up Hitler, Pol Pot, Muhammad Ali, Bruce Lee, and Chuck Norris, whilst playing chess against Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein, Gary Kasparov, and Deep Blue. Otherwise, I would use my rainbow-coloured, high-IQ, big-muscle death rays to vaporize you.

    Racism kills people. Racism hurts people. Racism rips the world apart. And there you are – doing your thing. Contributing nothing.

    You can’t even speak out against it.

    Boring. Racist. Narcissist.

  211. rq says

    I’m so glad I didn’t find this thread until today.
    More links over there, but keep up the good fight here, Horde. ♥

  212. jennyjfwlucy says

    Yeah, I’m sure an elite military martial artist has so much time on his hands that he has nothing better to do than smear poop on the wall. You just don’t get it; that the very fact you choose to spend your time smearing poop is clear evidence that you don’t really have anything worthwhile going on in your life at all. Otherwise you’d be out there doing it.

  213. brucegorton says

    I’m not joking, I’m deadly serious. I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills…

  214. Bernard Bumner says

    @ fernando #257

    But the chaos that is going on in Ferguson is something terrible. Terrible because of two things: destroy the property and business of innocent people and make (in my opinion) many people that didn’t had a definitive opinion about all issue, to side with the suporters of the use of excessive force by police, just because of the scenes of burning and loting in Ferguson – “see? all of them are criminals: burning and destroying! the police should act harder to them!” – and mistake the great majority of peaceful protesters with the handful (but very active and destructive) criminals that are destroying buildings in that town..

    What do people do when justice fails them? It isn’t as though this was a not-guilty verdict after a trial. This was a whitewash.

    Asking people who are angry and fearful to buy into the status quo – peaceful protest, easily ignored – that has just failed them, won’t work. Actually, not only does the status quo fail them, it threatens their safety and crushes their opportunities. The status quo places them under siege, so violence and unrest is not remotely surprising.

    Also, you should choose your sources carefully – as many dedicated commenters scrupulously documented here previously, the reported violence and looting during the previous protests was often exaggerated or misreported, and the police’s actions to exacerbate the situation were largely unacknowledged by officials.

  215. says

    t’s ok, dude. Don’t worry about it. You’ll get to my level one day. Just keep at it, and never give up :) I I believe in you!

    Naw. I’d have enough self-respect to do myself in before I decided to take pleasure in others’ misfortune.
    Jamesyboy, there’s something I realized many years ago.
    There’s only ONE THING you have that can never be taken from you.
    Everything else can. All your possessions, your health, your life.
    But your integrity… …that can never be stolen.

    You can sell it though… some sell it cheap – for a scammed five dollar bill, whatever.
    And some give it away, for a lie, a cheat.

    You – you spent yours on a quick racist internet troll.
    You priced your integrity so cheaply.

    I’m guessing your assessment of its value was probably spot-on.

  216. azhael says

    But, jennyjfwlucy, surely you are not suggesting that jamesrusselltheturd could possibly be a lying troll? My mind fails to even conceive of such an outrageous possibility.

    Hey, james, how about between your secret raids on Al-Quaueda, killing Godzilla for the third time and coming here to troll us and waste our time on what is otherwise an important topic, you make something useful with your own time, like, i don’t know, trying to not be a complete waste of resources and a hindrance to humanity.

  217. says

    james, you’re being silenced?
    Someone took away your voice?

    I don’t think you;re stupid enough to believe that. I think you’re just full of shit.
    I mean sure, this particular space is PZ Myers’, and it’s possible that tomorrow he’ll decide to wipe off the shit you’ve smeared on his walls…

    But is anyone stopping you from creating your own blog?
    Someone stole your pen and paper?

    Nope. You”re just another narcissist who falsely asserts a right to barge into someone else’ space and force them to listen to you… despite the fact that you have nothing to say.

    Except of course to drone on about how you’re being silenced.
    Thinking’s not your strong suit is it, Jamesy?

  218. Bernard Bumner says

    PZ – when you come to this, I’d have no objections to you deleting this entire exchange to tidy up this dull derail on this important thread. Sorry if I’ve contributed to this uninteresting distraction.

    I see that the police are claiming to heard hundreds of shots overnight, but that police didn’t discharge a firearm. There are no dead or wounded police officers.

    Apparently, people in the midst of a riot can be better trusted with guns than can the police of Ferguson.

  219. jamesrussellthe3rd says

    I’m off to bed guys. It’s been a pleasure.

    PZ, props to you mate. Keep on keeping on!

    [Fuck you. Banned. –pzm]

  220. fernando says

    @Bernard Bumner #277

    Thank you for your advice, Bernard.
    Altough i believe that the news can be a bit exagerated about the chaos in Ferguson, i also believe that violent protests can be harmful to the ones that fight against social problems, like the problem of juvenile criminality, or etnic and police violence.

    I just want to see justice served, and not some sense of blind and twisted vengeance that harm innocents, instead of the guilty ones.

  221. chimera says

    On lunch break. Wow, for once I find the horde much too nice to a troll. PZ must be asleep or something. Might be good if he gave banhammer capacity to someone for the night over the next few days.

  222. says

    There’s a reason people take the piss out of internet SJWs and not social workers/community organisers/paramedics/employment consultants/mental health workers

    Incidentally, Jamesy, do you know that some of the regulars on this blog… some of the people best at dealing with your time – ARE mental health workers, medical workers of other sorts, volunteers and workers for a number of social welfare concerns?

    You see, you seem to think that just because YOU live a the make-believe life of an action movie hero/internet troll, that the other people on this blog are also leading useless lives.
    There are nurses who comment here. Scientists of many fields. People who work in law.
    And a lot of people who actually LIVE the lives of those you shit on – minorities, people in persecuted and mistreated segments of society, people from many countries. Victims of violence. People who HELP victims.
    People who put their own safety on the line to protect the rights of others.

    And of course those of us who lead boring lives but merely happen to still give a shit about others.

    So worthless, this giving a fuck. I mean, what the hell good are we doing, giving a fuck, when we could be ADDING to the problem like you?

    Instead of not rescuing victims, we’re just sitting here giving voice to support for them, rather than helping contribute to the oppressive atmosphere like you!

    I mean, that’s the choice, isn’t it? Either get out there and actively WORK to help people, or else actively mock them on the internet and make things worse. Merely being supportive? What the hell is THAT for?

    If you’re not feeding the hungry yourself – TAUNT them, dammit!
    If you’re not taking up arms against the KKK, why… then you have to POST RACIST SHIT!!! Just to prove you’re not one of those useless CONCERNED people!

    :)
    James… this blog has been here a looong time. We have dealt with many, many hundreds – possibly thousands of trolls who were far more creative and interesting than you. :)
    As has been said, “don’t feed the trolls” is not observed here… bullshit does not go unanswered.
    Many, many people have expressed appreciation for that fact. That we have taken all the trolls can possibly dish out for years and the trolls all wear themselves to nothing.

    You won’t even be remembered tomorrow. And we’ll still be here.
    Which, of course, is why your kind hate us so much. :)

    We outlast you. We outlast all of you. We always will. :)
    (It’s actually pretty easy.)

  223. says

    There’s a reason people take the piss out of internet SJWs and not social workers/community organisers/paramedics/employment consultants/mental health workers – it’s precisely because you do nothing tangibly useful at all.

    You realize that you cannot know the lives of online commenters just based on the fact that they are commenting online, right? Some people here are scientists and attorneys, which are pretty fucking important positions too, and that’s just of what *I* know from reading comments. A lot of the authors of FTB have done a lot of work for oppressed communities, or teach, or other commendable actions. Calling people who speak about social issues online “social justice warriors” sounds like a really cheap dismissive tactic that only is legitimate to really petty-minded people. Also your trolling sucks, get better.

  224. Bernard Bumner says

    Wow, for once I find the horde much too nice to a troll.

    Many of the most dedicated troll hunters, who were also often the people who invested heavily in raising awareness of this killing and the aftermath. might be feeling deflated by this (albeit unsurprising) news. I’d imagine that the whitewashing, along with those dreadful and familiar images on the news coverage of Ferguson, must be difficult to deal with.

    It is also probably quite difficult to muster enthusiasm when the trolls are quite this shit.

  225. Argent Zendik says

    I sincerely regret wasting the small amount of time I did waste engaging with him. On the other hand, we may be able to study him. I believe this is the first time anyone had witnessed walking, talking, human excrement.

  226. Seven of Mine: Shrieking Feminist Harpy says

    I believe this is the first time anyone had witnessed walking, talking, human excrement.

    Psh, that guy was far from the most odious troll we’ve seen here.

  227. randay says

    The police always claim to be acting in face of a threat, but statistics prove otherwise. Police agent isn’t even among the top 10 dangerous jobs. Furthermore,

    “A total of 76 law enforcement officers died in the line of duty in 2013, the FBI reported Monday. Of those, 49 died in accidents and 27 were killed as a result of felonious acts — the lowest such figure in more than 50 years of FBI reporting, dating back to at least 1961.

    The 27 deaths of officers as a result of criminal acts in 2013 were a significant reduction from 2012, when 49 officers were feloniously killed, as well as from 2011, when 72 officers were killed by assailants in the line of duty.”…
    “While reports by the FBI and other groups give a good idea of how many officers are killed in the line of duty each year, the number of people killed by officers is far less certain. The unrest in Ferguson reminded the nation that there is no federal database or reporting standard to track of the number of justifiable homicides — or even total people killed — by police each year”….
    “Many law enforcement agencies do report “justifiable homicides” to the FBI. A recently released report on these incidents in 2013 found that officers fatally shot 461 felony suspects last year, the most in two decades. Some experts have cautioned that this offers a very incomplete picture of the total number of civilians who die at the hands of police.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/police-officers-killed-2013_n_6213940.html

    So, nearly 20 times the number of suspects killed as police killed by suspects. An underestitimate and no report on the number of unarmed “suspects” killed by police.

  228. says

    Yes, I do sleep. And when 280 comments pile up overnight, I can’t get to them until I wake up.

    Hoo boy, you should see the crap that got caught by the filters, though.

  229. call me mark says

    I assume his shit will shortly be gone but working on the assumption that he’ll still be looking:

    jamesrussellthe3rd: “pretending” to be a racist piece of shit for “lolz” is functionally equivalent to… being a racist piece of shit. No amount of “oh I was only joking” will wriggle out of the fact that you defended the murder by police of a twelve-year-old child.

    Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on.

  230. opposablethumbs says

    So … the Prosecutor – the prosecutor, ffs, whose duty it is to present the case for having an actual trial …. was a member of the organisation raising funds for Wilson? And has significant, close ties to the police?

    Well gosh, however did the authorities fail to “notice” this massive, glaring conflict of interest, I wonder. Nope, can’t think of a single reason why.

  231. rq says

    PZ
    I’d rather not, actually. Thank you for dealing with it.

    +++

    And yes, there are errors from trolls that need to be pointed out (for instance, there were no Michael Brown fingerprints on Darren Wilson’s gun, because they had to choose DNA or prints and they went with DNA, though if Wilson handled Brown at any point and for any reason, his DNA could have been transferred to the gun, so in this case DNA is extremely inconclusive evidence) and the racism to be addressed (though, even if too nice, the Horde is dealing well during the off-hours). But I’m just so tired right now and so disappointed and ragey and this does not even begin to be anything similar to what the community in Ferguson is feeling.
    If anyone needs to point trolls at information, tell them to go drown in the library that is Good Morning, America! (upwards of 5 pages of comments) and Later this morning in America. Just point them at the threads, the information is there for them to see. All kinds of it, too, from experts and non-experts, plus random commentary.
    How they keep up the work (and they’re keeping it up, they are), I don’t know, but they are amazing.

  232. rq says

    opposablethumbs
    The power-triangle that is McCullogh-Roorda-Nixon is absolutely sickening. Stenger can probably be added in, too. They give each other money and help out with each other’s election campaigns. It’s disgusting.

  233. Bernard Bumner says

    If anyone needs to point trolls at information…

    I deliberately avoided doing that – I don’t think the trolls on this thread would do anything except try to disrupt and provoke.

    Those thread titles are suitably free of flags.

  234. Saad says

    Not even slightly surprised. An indictment would mean they’re admitting there’s a problem.

    Fuck this “justice” system.

    In three months, we’ll hear that cop who killed a 12-year old boy is also getting off without any problems.

  235. rq says

    Bernard
    Well, it’s less of a discussion there as just a mass of information, though I can’t guarantee how I’d respond to disruption and/or provocation at this point.
    But anyway, I see your point.

  236. says

    Think how bad it must have been, that they didn’t want to run the risk of indicting Wilson and having a show trial and exonerating him! That the police state preferred to avoid a kangaroo court just shows either that they were lazy or really wanted to break in all the new riot gear they’d been buying.

    Remember: you can tell who’s prepared to start a riot by the way they dress and what they are carrying.

  237. dianne says

    Saddest quote on this situation that I’ve seen so far: Person basically walking past a protest (which was entirely peaceful btw, no rioting, not even by the police) asked the reporter what it was for. The reporter replied that it was a protest of a police officer not getting indicted after killing a young black man. Person replied “Which one?” (I’m paraphrasing slighlty beecause I don’t remember where I read it and therefore can’t find to quote or link.)

  238. dianne says

    So … the Prosecutor – the prosecutor, ffs, whose duty it is to present the case for having an actual trial …. was a member of the organisation raising funds for Wilson?

    How is his not recusing himself anything other than an impeachable offence?

  239. Bernard Bumner says

    So … the Prosecutor – the prosecutor, ffs, whose duty it is to present the case for having an actual trial …. was a member of the organisation raising funds for Wilson?

    Is this the case? I know that Backstoppers Inc were potential beneficiaries, but have distanced themselves from the fundraising for Wilson. Does someone have a link handy, please?

    Even if that is the case, there are still potential conflicts of interest, and clearly McCullough can be judged on his performance one way or another. Here, he seems to have utterly failed to do his job, conflicts or not.

  240. says

    Anyone saying Brown was not armed needs to realize he had ARMS the size of TREE TRUNKS which he had just used on Wilson 90 seconds before and was coming back to use them again. If I were in that situation and had a gun, would I stop and think, ” Gee, shouldn’t I sacrifice my life to make up for all the social injustice in the world?” Yeah, right. The pattern of shell casings relative to position of the body in the released evidence is consistent with Brown coming back at Wilson, and Wilson backing up, before the last rounds were fired. People need to be thankful that we have a justice system that doesn’t railroad a person just because there is an angry mob out for blood vengeance.

  241. gog says

    Fuck off, Carol Sperling.

    You’re now among the racist shitstains repeating the whole stronger black man vs weaker white man trope in order to justify this homicide without even examining the circumstances further. You can fuck off, please. Fuck off, now.

  242. Dunc says

    People need to be thankful that we have a justice system that doesn’t railroad a person just because there is an angry mob out for blood vengeance.

    So what you’re saying is that you don’t understand the basic concepts of that justice system you’re so proud of, such as the difference between a grand jury and an actual criminal trial?

  243. says

    So…I just want to remark all the way back @4… “They’re still human beings and WILL respond aggressively.”

    Cops should be held to a higher standard. They should be trained to NOT respond aggressively. (If they’re not trained or inadequately trained, amongst other potential problems — like a justice system where the top priority does not appear to be justice — that’s a problem that needs to be addressed ASAP!) Yet, I had expected no indictment because of people like mamba24 who hold police at a standard they would hold anybody else, if not even a lower standard under this notion that cops have a difficult, stressful job. I could probably go on and on…but that’s all the more I’m in a mood to say. :(

  244. says

    [Questions from ignorant non-USian]

    Since this wasn’t a trial and there’s no statute of limitations on murder, is there anything to prevent charges being brought at a later time? Can a prosecutor (e.g. one in a position of higher authority) decide to lay charges anyway or is a Grand Jury indictment always necessary? Is there a possibility of an appeal of some kind because the prosecutor seems to have acted improperly (i.e. mislead the Grand Jury about their role)?

  245. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Anyone saying Brown was not armed needs to realize he had ARMS the size of TREE TRUNKS

    With leading hyperbole like this, I don’t need to read any further. Bullshit all the way down.

  246. Rachel: a transitioning astronomy student says

    Anyone saying Brown was not armed needs to realize he had ARMS the size of TREE TRUNKS

    Because black male bodies are somehow always weapons. Fuck off.

  247. Bernard Bumner says

    Anyone saying Brown was not armed needs to realize he had ARMS the size of TREE TRUNKS which he had just used on Wilson 90 seconds before and was coming back to use them again.

    Fucking hell!

    I find myself considering some of the contrast between armed policing in the UK (just by virtue of it being my home) and the US.

    11 people shot and killed by English police in the last decade. 13 police officers (across the entire UK) have died in the line of duty on that time. We also have lots of large young men with limbs.

    This is particularly topical at the moment: Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale murdered and near-decapitated Lee Rigby on the streets of London and then attacked armed police officers with a cleaver and revolver. Both were shot and non-fatally wounded. Both faced justice.

    Brown was unarmed and trying to flee and was then shot a frankly absurd number of times, finally in the top of the head.

    One of these situations is sadly typical of an attitude to armed response where the default is overreaction and quite literal overkill (if this wasn’t just outright murder by an officer felt disrespected).

  248. gakxz1 says

    A paragraph about things said here I agree with (well, first ~100 comments), and then one about a thing I don’t (yet?) agree with. And yes, I imagine the 1st paragraph is there as a shield for the second, but I do believe both…

    Agreement: Shooting of an unarmed person, under any circumstance (why do police have guns in scenarios like this at all? Are we incapable, in the 21st century, or figuring out a way of disabling someone without killing them??). Terrible subsequent reaction (by police to protesters, by much of the trolling public to protesters). Militarized police force, and, worst of all, their systemic incarceration (and community bullying, putting it lightly) of people who don’t happen to be white. And surely this case should’ve been brought to trial.

    Disagreement: Nevertheless, I can’t bring myself to vilify the entire police force, or even the majority. I do believe (and yes, it is just that, a belief) that 8 out of 10 police officers would not do something like this. That the systemic problems mentioned above can be solved with the police on board. And that if we were to weight all the good and bad done by police, I guess I believe that the ledger is still more positive than negative. Admittedly, that last sentence was difficult to type, given mass incarceration of black male youths that has caused untold amounts of damage. We must find a way of adressing that, but we should do so without vilifying the police force as a cold, toy-loving, minority death cult.

  249. rq says

    Suddenly everyone is a forensics expert, and black people’s arms become weapons.
    Like holy shit. Darren Wilson had a fucking car. Cars are still faster than people, as far as I know, black sprinters notwithstanding, and Michael Brown was running away. Cue officer gets back into car to drive away, or at least not chase him with a gun. Nothing in the circumstances point to the fact that Brown would have been difficult to find at any point afterward. There was no reason to go after him. For fucks’ sakes, him running away was a perfect opportunity for Darren Wilson not to get out of the car, to check his radio, and to actually radio for help.

    I’m all for railroading Darren Wilson with the justice system at this point, since it’s stacked in his favour anyway.

  250. Dunc says

    Nevertheless, I can’t bring myself to vilify the entire police force, or even the majority. I do believe (and yes, it is just that, a belief) that 8 out of 10 police officers would not do something like this.

    Even if that’s true, (a) they’re still covering for the 2 out of 10 who would, and (b) 2 out of 10 is still way too fucking high.

  251. Bernard Bumner says

    …we should do so without vilifying the police force as a cold, toy-loving, minority death cult.

    An unarmed black person killed every three days or so. No central collation of killings by police. Few indictments for unlawful killing. Almost no convictions. People pulling out concealed guns and shooting themselves whilst handcuffed in the back of patrol cars. A 12 year-old shot dead because he was in possession of a toy gun. Tens of billions of dollars spent on militarisation. Bayonettes issued to police forces. Assault rifles. Semi-automatic shotguns. Armoured personnel carriers on the streets.

    You have too much faith.

  252. gakxz1 says

    Even if that’s true, (a) they’re still covering for the 2 out of 10 who would, and (b) 2 out of 10 is still way too fucking high.

    I agree with that.

  253. rq says

    Even if that’s true, (a) they’re still covering for the 2 out of 10 who would, and (b) 2 out of 10 is still way too fucking high.

    As has also been mentioned in previous threads, those officers who do not cover for their colleagues and try to call them out get harassed, intimidated and worse. So, I think 8 out of 10 is a rather high estimate for good cops remaining in the force.

  254. dianne says

    Anyone saying Brown was not armed needs to realize he had ARMS the size of TREE TRUNKS

    Dog whistle noted.

    which he had just used on Wilson 90 seconds before and was coming back to use them again.

    As far as I know, there is simply no evidence at all to support this statement. Wilson was not hurt. He had not so much as an unaccounted bruise on his body. I guess Brown’s tree trunk arms weren’t very effective at causing damage. Furthermore, the forensic evidence suggests that he was a significant distance away from Wilson. Wilson had plenty of time to respond in ways other than with deadly force. Heck, a well trained cop should be able to take out a single unarmed assailant without any weapons at all.

    If I were in that situation and had a gun, would I stop and think, ” Gee, shouldn’t I sacrifice my life to make up for all the social injustice in the world?”

    If you’re a cop then, yes, you’re supposed to be ready to sacrifice your life for the people you are supposed to be protecting. I’m not allowed to refuse to treat a patient because I’m afraid they might have ebola and ebola scares me. Why should a cop be allowed to shoot someone simply because he finds them a little bit scary? Get a different job if you can’t handle the little, tiny risk that you might get hurt dealing with a suspect.

    The pattern of shell casings relative to position of the body in the released evidence is consistent with Brown coming back at Wilson, and Wilson backing up, before the last rounds were fired.

    Nope. the pattern of wounds suggested that Brown turned and put his hands over his head when the firing started. That is all. If Wilson was backing up, that proves nothing whatsoever about what Brown was doing, so I don’t even know why you’re nattering on about the shell casing.

    There is simply no reason why any decent person would support Wilson in this. I will draw my own conclusions about your decency from your support of him.

  255. dianne says

    11 people shot and killed by English police in the last decade. 13 police officers (across the entire UK) have died in the line of duty on that time. We also have lots of large young men with limbs.

    But fewer with (fire)arms. The availability of guns makes the US a more dangerous place for police and civilians alike.

  256. says

    Wilson had a car and a radio. You can’t outrun either of those. There was no need for hand to hand combat and Wikson could have driven away while calling in backup. Of course since it was a big black guy, they’d have “had to” call in B-52s …

    When someone testifies they had limited options it is always a good idea to question that, since artificially scoping one’s options is a classic form of excuse-making.

  257. dianne says

    Since this wasn’t a trial and there’s no statute of limitations on murder, is there anything to prevent charges being brought at a later time?

    I _think_ that that would be considered double jeopardy and that since he was not indicted he’s off the hook as far as criminal charges go. The family can sue in civil court, though.

  258. dianne says

    Nevertheless, I can’t bring myself to vilify the entire police force, or even the majority. I do believe (and yes, it is just that, a belief) that 8 out of 10 police officers would not do something like this.

    I’m going to assume, for the moment, that you’re right in your estimate. Now, let’s try an analogy in a different situation: I do believe that 8 out of 10 doctors would not give you medication that they know will kill you, even if they didn’t like you. Now, how confident do you feel about going to the hospital after hearing that statement? A large majority of doctors wouldn’t kill you, even if they don’t like you and, heck, they might even like you in which case you’d be at no particular risk at all…

  259. fernando says

    @dianne #323

    I agree with you, dianne.

    Another reason, in my opinion, to the greater violence in criminal activity in the USA is the penalities: death penality or decades of prison to a thief; that makes the criminal more desperate and capable of doing the worst he can do.

    Maybe a a better control of the weapons and an investement in a politic of rehabilitation of the criminals (specially the younger ones) will save much more lives and helping in the creation of a better society.

  260. says

    Carol Sperling #306

    People need to be thankful that we have a justice system that doesn’t railroad a person just because there is an angry mob out for blood vengeance.

    You can’t both praise the justice system AND claim that a jury trail constitutes “railroading”. Pick one or the other.

    Fact is that there should have been a trial. There was ample evidence for a trial to proceed. For example, there was a statement from the accused, which directly contradicts statements made by eye witnesses. That alone is grounds for a trial. The only way to refuse a trial is by considering some of the witnesses unreliable and (in my very limited legal knowledge) that’s exactly the kind of finding of fact that the trial jury is for, not the grand jury.

    Even if you’re convinced that Wilson is innocent of any wrongdoing, this still remains a travesty of justice. The system simply decided that the laws don’t apply to cops. That’s what happened here and anyone with the slightest bit of sense should be very concerned about that. This is Judge Dredd territory. I’m not even kidding.

  261. Seven of Mine: Shrieking Feminist Harpy says

    I _think_ that that would be considered double jeopardy and that since he was not indicted he’s off the hook as far as criminal charges go. The family can sue in civil court, though.

    Double jeopardy refers to trying a person more than once for the same crime. As far as I understand it, there’s nothing stopping a prosecutor taking any of several different avenues to get charges filed if the initial grand jury decideds not to indict. Of course, that requires a prosecutor who isn’t actively protecting the defendant.

  262. Brony, Social Justice Cenobite says

    So many offensive invaders in this thread conflate emotional intensity with illogic and unreason.

    As far as I am concerned anyone doing the following is making an accusation that they are required to defend: refusing to engage a person expressing outrage at the lack of indictment, defense of the lack of indictment, use of descriptors like racist, insults and similar.

    Just because someone is using intense emotions does not implicitly require that they do not have an argument. You feelings about their naughty words do not make substance go away. I have no sympathies for anyone defending a racist system and citizenry in such a manner. You deserve the insults and should be able to put up with them given the crap that the black community has to go through. It’s becoming more obvious why many have a rational distrust of white people and the systems we influence.

  263. dianne says

    Seven and Ibis: You’re right, I’m wrong. Or, at the very least, Wikipedia agrees to you and links to a fairly legitimate looking site saying that a later grand jury can return an indictment when a prior failed to.

  264. Bernard Bumner says

    But fewer with (fire)arms. The availability of guns makes the US a more dangerous place for police and civilians alike.

    Yes.

    But the point I was specifically contesting there was that unarmed Mike Brown was so dangerous with only his fists that he needed to be shot; in the UK, where officers generally aren’t armed but the rates of criminal violence are similar, there have been few police officer deaths as a result of unarmed assaults.

  265. says

    @diane #322 “.. the pattern of wounds suggested that Brown turned and put his hands over his head when the firing started”

    What grand jury document did you get that from? I would like to read it for myself.

  266. gakxz1 says

    @dianne, #326

    I agree with that. If 2 out of 10 police (or doctors) were homicidal, the public would be completly justified in mistrusting the police (hospitals), and spending alot of time protesting (and those who say, 8/10 is fine, so lets drop the thing, are as wrong as those who say, because the muslim world has a worse record with women’s rights, we shouldn’t care at all about women’s rights at home).

    But I can’t bring myself to a blanket condemnation of police officers, or to a mistrust of someone in a blue uniform just for the uniform. It’s a bit like Bill Maher and Sam Harris accusing all muslims of being extreme in one way or another. They spit out some random pole numbers, say a few words about supporting the reformers, and then effectively accuse every other muslim of secretly being horrible human beings who support the death of apostates. Not saying it’s a strong parallel: if anyone is the oppressor here, it’s the people with guns and tanks. But… (insert me continuing to complain, I too am getting tired of it…)

  267. rq says

    gakxz1
    Are you white? Because it sounds like you haven’t lived the experience of black people all over, in order to understand where a deep-seated mistrust of the law can exist.

  268. says

    Carol Sperling, disgusting racist, please go away.

    I just want to see the evidence that backs up Diane’s claim. Isn’t that what we ask of theists and creationists?

    [Carol Sperling is gone. Just regard this thread, or any other thread about Ferguson, as a zero tolerance zone for racist rationalizations. –pzm]

  269. Thomathy, Such A 'Mo says

    gakxz1, the problem is that the situation is not at all similar. Cops do not engender a trust with the public they are supposed to serve and protect in a way that can make up for those cops who murder people. As an industry, policing protects its own members from any kind of judicial prosecution that could possibly amount to justice and the overwhelming silence from police on matters like this indicates a tacit approval for the actions of murderous cops.

    You condemn, I’m sure, the racist world in which we all inhabit, but you are fine to support cops despite the fact that in their current form they operate largely above the law with no effective oversight? No one is asking you to condemn cops that don’t murder people. In the same way that you can condemn a racist society despite there being non-racist individuals within it, you can condemn police.

    Also, get over it.

  270. gakxz1 says

    @rq

    I am, well, born here but with parents immigrating from the former USSR (so, if anything, not only white, but transparent). And I’m not saying that such mistrust is not justified, especially in neighborhoods where police abuse is far more prevelent then a few rogue cases. Absolutely.

  271. dianne says

    Carol, where is the evidence to back up your fantasies about Brown hitting Wilson (it’s simply not true and I don’t think even Wilson is claiming it at this point) or that Brown was rushing towards Wilson as opposed to simply turning to raise his hands in the air and indicate that he was surrendering? Did you get that from a grand jury document? Or just out of your racist little mind?

  272. Thomathy, Such A 'Mo says

    Carol Sperling @ # 338

    I just want to see the evidence that backs up Diane’s claim. Isn’t that what we ask of theists and creationists?

    Sure it is. Do a search here at Pharyngula for those threads that deal with Ferguson. Then do a text search for that string of words. This has been discussed here before. Also, here we ask for people to self-educate. You can do that. We don’t have to or need to spoon feed you that info. It is uncontroversial to say that the dead, TREE TRUNK for arms black kid named Michael Brown, was in a state of surrender when he was shot. IIRC, this was a conclusion of an independent report on the incident. Go look it up for fuck’s sake.

  273. nich says

    So many offensive invaders in this thread conflate emotional intensity with illogic and unreason.

    And I just don’t get why either. What’s the point? Cops represent one of the most privileged classes of people. The entire system is stacked in their favor. They ALWAYS win. It’s like being a fan of a professional football franchise that just beat a lowly high school team and then showing up at their Facebook page: “77-0 LOSERS! That’s what you get when you try to take on the best!”

    You fuckers ALWAYS win. We get that. Can’t you fuck off and be satisfied with your vaunted position in the world? Do you have to rub it in too? At the end of the day you got what you knew was coming and Michael Brown is the dead thug who tried to steal the cigars. Your victory is utterly complete. You don’t have to tell us. We know.

    Now take your fucking schadenfreude elsewhere.

  274. Thomathy, Such A 'Mo says

    [Carol Sperling is gone. Just regard this thread, or any other thread about Ferguson, as a zero tolerance zone for racist rationalizations. –pzm]

    Thanks and good.

  275. dianne says

    But I can’t bring myself to a blanket condemnation of police officers, or to a mistrust of someone in a blue uniform just for the uniform.

    Fine. You might also not condemn ALL doctors. After all, 80% of them in that scenario are honest and trustworthy. But if blanket condemnation is wrong, blanket trust seems equally foolish. It seems like it would be a good idea for civilians, especially black civilians, to be cautious of the police, at the very least.

  276. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    What grand jury document did you get that from? I would like to read it for myself.

    Oh, you are listening to bigoted spin sources and not the primary literature for you conclusions? Why am I not surprised?

  277. Thomathy, Such A 'Mo says

    nich @ #343, I dunno. I’m starting to think that those people who want to shout about how good the police really are are trying to convince themselves that they’re on their side, that they won’t ever get murdered by one because of some unfortunate situation or because of something like racism. But, then, those people probably never really will and maybe the police really do treat them better than they do some others.

    (You reading this, gakxz1? Read this.)

  278. Seven of Mine: Shrieking Feminist Harpy says

    gakxz1 @ 336

    But I can’t bring myself to a blanket condemnation of police officers, or to a mistrust of someone in a blue uniform just for the uniform. It’s a bit like Bill Maher and Sam Harris accusing all muslims of being extreme in one way or another.

    It’s nothing like Maher and Harris not least because Maher and Harris are lying and dissembling. Actual police officers actually kill unarmed black people On. A. Daily. Basis. in this country. We’re not making this shit up. We’re not pulling statistics out of our asses like Harris. Given that, asking people not to mistrust all police officers is asking them to wait until they have actually been assaulted or even killed before taking any steps to protect themselves.

  279. opposablethumbs says

    Berbard Bummer @305, yes it was the backstoppers connection that I meant to refer to. Linked to by Argent Zendik @253.

    He’s part of an organization that helped raise money to support Darren Wilson: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43839_Is_St._Louis_County_Prosecutor_Robert_McCulloch_Helping_Raise_Money_for_Ofc._Darren_Wilson

    He has a history of failing to indict police officers, lying about the events of Grand Jury, using Grand Jury to expose whistleblowers, and has failed to present evidence at GJ that would have helped to induct police officers: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43839_Is_St._Louis_County_Prosecutor_Robert_McCulloch_Helping_Raise_Money_for_Ofc._Darren_Wilson

  280. stillacrazycanuck says

    I was planning on writing a comment to the effect that it is as wrong for those critical of the police to be outraged at this outcome as it is for the fox news-types to try to portray the officer as some kind of hero: that the problem is that unless we were one of a very small number of eyewitnesses, we have to rely upon our perception of events as presented by the media, and that the media on the ‘left’ is, unfortunately, often as biased in its presentation of information as the is the media on the right, to the point that we are reacting to a perception rather than any reliable set of objective facts.

    Then I realized that the problem with that approach is that while it may make sense when applied to a single incident, the persuasive power of the argument falls away entirely when viewed in the context of how police use force, especially in the US, where socio-economic stratification has been rising for decades (thanks in part, I suppose, to Saint Reagan and his voodoo economics), and racial stratification seems to remain much the problem it has always been. Not surprisingly, those caught with the twin burdens of being poor AND non-white (the correlation of which is not exactly random) suffer the most.

    I know a few police officers. I like almost all of them. One is a next door neighbour and a good guy. However, even here in Canada, the influence of American style policing is creeping in and a lot of the younger officers seem to buy-in to the us v them mentality that seems to allow for and engender disproportionate use of force. Indeed, I know more than one senior Canadian police officer who has expressed private concerns about the Americanization of younger officers, who think it cool to shave their heads, wear shades, and adopt military style uniforms when given any choice.

    From what I understand, from having done quite a bit of research into police training methods in Canada and the US (primarily so I could discredit an American expert due to the inapplicability of his knowledge to Canadian practices) many US police departments are woefully undertrained in how to deal with people, even while becoming very well trained in the use of the enormous firepower and equipment they get to use. In fairness, one of the problems that confronts US police far more than any other Western police is the likelihood that the people they are interacting with have firearms. That is just one of many, many reasons why, to the rest of the civilized world, the US approach to guns is clearly insane. In Canada, whenever an officer has occasion to deal with a civilian, there is approximately a 40% likelihood that that civilian is either intoxicated/high or mentally ill or both. I suspect the same percentages apply in the US, and then throw in the odds that that person is armed with a handgun, and many cops are going to be highly stressed all the time, and highly stressed paranoid cops are not a good thing. I am not excusing the cops at all: merely pointing out that to be outraged at this sort of behaviour while the electorate routinely elects politicians who refuse to address economic inequality, racial inequality, and gun control, is a waste of energy.

    Finally, the notion of electing district attorneys is simply asking for trouble. Yes, I understand a fear that having the government appoint prosecutors can lead to the government controlling the process, and I am not naïve enough to think it never happens here. However, if one has a strong, independent bar and teach proper ethics, this is not as bad a problem as having politicians pander to their electorate, as seems to have happened here.

    The DA presumably knows that in elections it is the older, white, conservative voter who turns out the most frequently….look at your mid-terms….and he wants to win re-election. Even if he consciously tried to be neutral, and it seems that he didn’t, the unconscious pressures to tailor the outcome to enhance his personal prospects would likely cause problems.

    In short, the US ‘justice’ system seems to be completely f*cked up*

  281. gakxz1 says

    @dianne, 345

    I agree that blanket trust is foolish, and that caution is often the best move, and often the only one to take to ensure one’s safety (I would never, ever, argue that people in black neighborhoods, were more black males are being incarcerated then attend college, should show any good will, at all, to police).

    @Thomathy, Such A ‘Mo

    I’m not shouting how good the police are, nor am I supporting them, certainly not in this case. And I’ll absolutely “admit” that my perspective is based on the perspective of someone who’s privilaged, for no reason other than the happy coincidence of being middle class and white.

  282. Thomathy, Such A 'Mo says

    This is what really gets me. When are we supposed to stop trusting police? Because if it’s when I, myself, am murdered by one, it’s too fucking late.

    We effectively live under the auspice of a paramilitary, with only the semblance of civil leadership.

    I live in Toronto. I live in Toronto in the area that the G20 protests took place. We are still dealing with that. It took zero hours in Toronto for the police to assume what amounted to a military occupation and the suspension of civil rights in the downtown area. They removed their badges, they arrested peaceful, non-protesting civilians, sometimes with significant violence on their part, without charges for as much as 13 hours, outside, in make-shift processing centres, during a rain storm, without adequate sanitary space or water. They held thousands of people, making well over 1000 arrests.

    At what point is anyone supposed to distrust the police? Fucking when?

  283. Saad says

    What I don’t understand is how there can be evidence for Brown rushing towards Wilson?

    And why was the initial “35 feet away” lie told by the police chief? Why did they refuse to explain the discrepancy (it was actually over 140 feet away). In light of the seriousness of this case, that is a damning error and an even more damning silence to explain the “error”.

  284. nich says

    Dianne@345:

    After all, 80% of them in that scenario are honest and trustworthy.

    No. Six of the other eight doctors would defend the two “bad apples” to the death, and the two who didn’t would be fired or reassigned. Maybe I’m just being cynical, but that’s the way it seems to go.

    gakxz1@336

    It’s a bit like Bill Maher and Sam Harris accusing all muslims of being extreme in one way or another.

    The day the police equivalent of an imam issues a blanket condemnation of the latest shooting of an unarmed black kid like Muslim leaders nearly ALWAYS do after major terrorist attack is the day I kiss a cop. Hell, even Osama bin Laden was supposedly a little discomfited by some of the things ISIS’s predecessor was doing. And last I checked Muslims don’t have the power to pull me over or kick down my front door or get free donuts at the fucking local coffee shop if they show up in the hijab and Obama isn’t ordering a targeted drone strike of Darren fucking Wilson.

  285. Pteryxx says

    Given that, asking people not to mistrust all police officers is asking them to wait until they have actually been assaulted or even killed before taking any steps to protect themselves.

    I’d take it further than that. Assuming there are 80% Good and Honest cops who don’t make a point of disproportionately harassing or brutalizing black and brown people, yet those people still get stopped and harassed a disproportionate amount if the time (proven with stats and evidence) – then when a black or brown person DOES get stopped by a police officer for some trivial reason, they’d have even more reason to fear that officer as one of the vicious 20%. Can anyone seriously believe that departments enacting racist stop-and-frisk policies just tell their 2 out of 10 bad apples to go perform the bulk of the harassment duties so the other 80% can concentrate on their real jobs without getting dirty? The city of Ferguson’s largely funded by trivial fines and traffic stops, like many small and medium US cities nowadays. Are they depending solely on the bad 20% of their officers to do all that fundraising-by-harassment?

  286. says

    Before he testified in front of the grand jury, officer Wilson was privy to all of the witness testimony given earlier. This means the officer knew exactly what to say to cause the grand jury to doubt witness testimony that made the officer look bad. Look carefully at the officer’s testimony where he specifies the red hat and yellow socks that Brown was wearing, thus making the connection with the alleged robbery — that’s an example of what I’m talking about.

    The robbery connection should not have been a primary factor, and certainly should not have been considered as proof of Brown’s thuggery nor of his danger to the public. Nor should it have been considered a reason to shoot him. Yet the prosecutor’s team and the officer both spent a lot of time repeating that stuff to the grand jurors.

    Absent a body camera, we should have had a report written by the officer on the day of the incident, and not a carefully crafted statement by the officer to the grand jury. I think the officer talked to the grand jury for four hours. That sounds like a breach of proper protocol to me.

    If the officer feared for his life even after Brown left his vehicle, why didn’t he call for backup. Why didn’t he stay in his car? Was Brown threatening any member of the public at that time (other than, allegedly, the officer)? No. There was not a good reason to kill the kid.

    I’ll repeat what Ichthyic and others have said upthread, that the lengthy deliberation by the grand jury shows that there was evidence that should have been considered in a trial-by-jury. The grand jurors were misled, they were forced into a situation where they tried the case themselves based on evidence presented in a way that would lean toward exonerating the officer.

  287. Crimson Clupeidae says

    Also, the “eye-witnesses” that spoke against the police officer changed their stories multiple times, and their stories were found to be incorrect compared to the autopsy reports.
    You guys are wrong, plain and simple. You are having a knee-jerk reaction because a black guy was shot and you don’t like it.

    I know this asshole has already been banned, but I’ve seen this same shit repeated in a few spaces now (I know, don’t read the comments….). The double standard is fucking sickening. Wilson’s testimony changed, substantially, multiple times, yet his (latest?) was taken as fucking gospel and the previous contradictions have been wiped from memory (except for that whole internet thing).

    Fucking fuckers. Fuck the police.

  288. Crimson Clupeidae says

    diane@345:

    You might also not condemn ALL doctors. After all, 80% of them in that scenario are honest and trustworthy. But if blanket condemnation is wrong, blanket trust seems equally foolish. It seems like it would be a good idea for civilians, especially black civilians, to be cautious of the police, at the very least.

    Good points with this analogy. Extend the analogy to include the hospitals covering for, and the ‘good’ doctors also covering for the ‘few’ bad apples, and the analogy gets really fucking scary, really fucking quickly.

  289. Thomathy, Such A 'Mo says

    stillacrazycanuck, you do know that Canadian cops have been rather prolific lately in murdering mentally ill people rather than dealing with them in a more productive and less deadly matter? That, in recent memory, none of those people murdered were armed with guns?

    Policing here has a serious problem, at least as serious as the problem in the US. We also have problems with our justice system. Cops don’t get found guilty at nearly the rate they should for the murders they commit. The US has serious flaws with their justice system, but Canada has problems too. At least you are right in pointing out the absurdity of electing a member of the justice system; I’ll go further and say that electing any member of the justice system is absurd and extraordinarily problematic. But, really, that the furthest removed part of the problem when police are murdering civilians.

    And you’re right too that the problem is systemic and that America is a racist country where racists get elected and then are held to account based on the party lines of those who elected them. Which doesn’t excuse cops, of course, but rather increases the responsibility they have to uphold laws, not one of which is racist, and to protect and serve the communities in which they are employed.

  290. Bernard Bumner says

    @ opposable thumbs #350, thanks.

    I’m not sure that Backstoppers Inc do have any direct links to fundraising for Wilson from what I can gather in a quick Google survey – they seem to have been intended beneficiaries (possible even in an attempt to buy McCullough’s sympathy), but to have declined any potential donations.

    Nevertheless, McCullough’s failure is stark and entirely consistent with a history of failing to indict. It is certainly plausible that he is effectively working to prevent prosecution, than being merely incompetent. It is entirely believable that he has Wilson’s back in this case.

  291. rq says

    gakxz1

    especially in neighborhoods where police abuse is far more prevelent then a few rogue cases

    You’re showing your racist ass here. It’s not something that only happens in certain neighbourhoods. Like that guy in Hollywood who was stopped for driving a fancy car while black. I’ll have to look up the link, sometime towards the end of August. This is not something that happens here or there, or is supported by a small number of cops. It’s a systemic thing, and pretty much only those who support the system can survive it and work within it to the point where they are not accountable for their actions.

  292. says

    Have any of our current crop of racist trolls actually tried to argue that there was no probable cause? They’ve talked about how they personally think Wilson is innocent or how black people are inherently dangerous or the witnesses were unreliable , etc., but have any of them tried really making the argument that the grand jury actually did its job correctly?

  293. Brony, Social Justice Cenobite says

    @ nich

    And I just don’t get why either. What’s the point?

    My explanation is that it’s a logical fallacy (you also see it when women and other groups “get uppity”). Since people can often be illogical and unreasonable when emotional, it is convenient to assume that a person who is emotionally intense that they are disagreeing with is automatically irrational and illogical.

    The behavior matches with the hasty generalization fallacy.

  294. gakxz1 says

    @rq, 362

    Possibly you’re getting annoyed with me agreeing with things, because yes, it’s partly a defense mechanism. But yes, absolutely, I imagine I was being racist there (it wasn’t my intent, but then, that’s the point of internalized racism, which I do assume I’m riddled with). Thank you for poining it out.

  295. rq says

    LykeX @363
    Just posted a link on the other thread with a look at how the Grand Jury (and the prosecutor, incidentally) did not do their jobs properly.

  296. Pteryxx says

    following up on rq’s #362:

    You’re showing your racist ass here. It’s not something that only happens in certain neighbourhoods.

    See Professor Gates from Harvard, for example, or Neil deGrasse Tyson:

    “At no time was I perceived as a future colleague, although this privilege was enjoyed by others in graduate school. When combined with the dozens of times I have been stopped and questioned by the police for going to and from my office after hours, and the hundreds of times I am followed by security guards in department stores, and the countless times people cross the street upon seeing me approach them on the sidewalk, I can summarize my life’s path by noting the following: in the perception of society, my athletic talents are genetic; I am a likely mugger-rapist; my academic failures are expected; and my academic successes are attributed to others.” (2)

    (From Tyson’s The Sky Is Not the Limit: Adventures of an Urban Astrophysicist. quoted here)

    But in a “good” neighborhood, black people are especially in danger because they’re assumed not to belong there. (See: Black Teen With White Parents Mistaken For Burglar, Assaulted By Cops In His Own Home) That was part of Zimmerman’s excuse for killing Trayvon Martin in a relatively wealthy housing development – because Zimmerman was patrolling that “good” neighborhood to keep undesirables out.

  297. rq says

    gakxz1
    Not annoyed for you for agreeing with things, but trying to maintain the trustworthiness of cops despite agreeing with everything. And then chalking it up to bad neighbourhoods.
    So… you might just want to think about why you’re doing that, and if your privilege is so overbearing that you can’t empathize with those people on the wrong end of it, maybe you should quiet down and listen to others for a bit. Or just think. That can work, too.
    I’m not angry. :) But I’m going to get frustrated very soon.

  298. says

    In my comment #357 I said that Officer Wilson should have called for backup. He did call for backup. Just wanted to correct that mistake. My apologies.

  299. Rey Fox says

    but have any of them tried really making the argument that the grand jury actually did its job correctly?

    Exactly. If they’re so damn certain that Wilson is innocent, what’s the harm in going to trial? If he has nothing to hide, why does he run from justice? Why does he resist arrest? The Law should be his friend! Hypocrites.

  300. gakxz1 says

    rq

    Let me put it this way: if it’s a question of who I empathize more with, then the answer is clear. With the people getting shot and harrased. They are far more important than the police; the people doing the harrasing. For the relatives of those who died, or are in jail, or just can’t go outside at night, who rail against the police and warn others to stay vigilant against them, I say… Fuck. the police. That I can also feel empathetic to people wearing blue unifroms should not be a conflict of interest. In this case the former trumps the latter, and I should indeed shut the fuck up.

  301. Bernard Bumner says

    It isn’t even a case of whether or not Wilson is innocent at this stage – the failure to indict is a travesty in and of itself. Why do they have such a cool response to a blatant failure of the grand jury? This is one of the key processes of US criminal justice, and one to which they may someday find themselves or theirs subject to.

  302. rq says

    Lynna
    He didn’t call for backup.
    He says he called for backup, but the radio had changed channels rather suddenly on him.
    From what I understand, there was a channel search to find his lost transmission (as it would have ended up elsewhere and not in police records) but it was not found. Not sure how that system works, though.

    Either way, he could have got back in his car, checked his radio, called for backup, received a fucking response, and then taken off after Michael. Would also have given him a few moments to calm down.

  303. says

    rq @374, Thanks for that information. I should have known to double check the claim that he called for backup. In the testimony, officer Wilson claims to have called for backup twice.

    Man, I sure would have liked to have seen this case go to trial.

  304. microraptor says

    Hey, guess what: CNN has Rudy Giuliani on to tell us about Black-on-Black crime.

    Mother fucker.

  305. qwints says

    @rq, that doesn’t match the county prosecutor’s account from last night. McCulloch said that Wilson radioed for backup before confronting Brown, and that a second police car arrived 90 seconds later, after Wilson shot and killed Brown.

  306. Usernames! ☞ ♭ says

    I’m white. I do not trust the police any more, and do not regard them as my friends.
    — PZ Myers (#26)

    My bad, I oversimplified a complex issue. Yes, the cops are a threat to your freedom and/or life, regardless of skin color, unless you’re one of the ruling classes.

    If you are a person of color, however, you can and will be stopped for the charge of driving, walking, standing, or breathing while brown. Your default status is “guilty”.

    Personal anecdote: One evening, I was walking to the bus stop. Before I could get there, the bus drove by. I knew that there was another bus line a few blocks over that would arrive before the next bus I was waiting for. So, I turned around and started jogging towards the other street. I got about 1/2 a block before I heard a siren and saw a cop car come racing up. The doors opened and a voice said, “Freeze!” (just like in the movies). The two cops had their guns drawn and were pointing them at me.

    That was the first time in my life that I knew I could’ve died right then and there if I made a wrong move. They screamed at me to put my hands on my head, turn around and get down on my knees. I had something in my hands (magazine? newspaper?) that I immediately dropped and did exactly what they told me to do. The handcuffed me and put me face down on the sidewalk. I felt them go through my pockets, and they pulled out my wallet and got my ID.

    After what seemed like a long time, they returned, let me up, unhandcuffed me and returned my wallet.

    One of them explained that a local whatever just got robbed and when they saw me turn around and start “running” they thought it was me. The cop said that I didn’t fit the description because of my height. Of course they didn’t apologize.

    Years later, SCOTUS would rule in Illinois v Wardlow (2000) that fleeing from the cops is probable cause, so what happened to me (not fleeing, but jogging for the bus) can happen to anyone.

    tl;dr: You’re right.

  307. rq says

    This would have been epic. It already is epic. But in trial it would have been even more epic. OJ Simpson would be nothing.

    gakxz1
    If you know who you empathize with, that’s good. Just remember that the conversation isn’t about how much you like cops, but how often cops commit atrocities against other people without being held accountable. That you feel empathy for cops is not the subject here, but the deep mistrust (and justified mistrust, and yes, even fear) people have of cops. Thank you for listening.

  308. rq says

    qwints
    I’ll have to go back and double-check, but the fact that McCullogh says he radioed, because DW says he radioed, well… I’m not inclined to take that at face value. In DW’s testimony he even talks about his radio, about how the channels suddenly switched on him, which is why the call didn’t go through. That he would have called someone in right after shooting, yes, I can believe that.

  309. dianne says

    If I were Wilson and I were innocent (I don’t know how he can be, but just go with it as a fantasy scenario for now), I’d be pissed at this outcome. Because without a trial, I can’t clear my name. Trials can exonerate as well as convict. The fact that he’s not interested in facing a jury is…interesting.

  310. qwints says

    Usernames!

    Years later, SCOTUS would rule in Illinois v Wardlow (2000) that fleeing from the cops is probable cause, so what happened to me (not fleeing, but jogging for the bus) can happen to anyone.

    Minor quibble – it’s reasonable suspicion, not probable cause, meaning that it justifies ‘only’ a stop and frisk, not a full search or arrest. Of course, that stop often involve death threats and physical assault by police. and the line between frisk and search is one that exists only in the courtroom.

    One of the most poignant examples of white privilege is all the things black men aren’t supposed to do in public – run, reach into their pockets, put a hand on their waist band, look at police, avoid looking at police,, etc.

  311. qwints says

    @rq, The St. Louis Post Dispatch examined the radio tapes and confirmed it. The call that Wilson said he made but that wasn’t recorded was before he exited the car to chase then shoot Brown.

    At 12:02 p.m., Wilson says, “21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car.” His call triggered at least two officers to head his way, including one who said he was close to Wilson.

    Forty-one seconds after Wilson’s call, unit 25 reported that he was about to arrive at Wilson’s location, saying he was “going out on Canfield” and accompanied by the sound of his racing engine.

    Forty-eight seconds later, another officer had arrived or was about to, announcing, “22’s out.”

  312. shadow says

    “There is no such thing as justice, in or out of court.”

    — Clarence Darrow (from my Reader’s Digest book of famous quotations)

  313. toska says

    qwints
    I have to wonder, who was taking the time between the last bullet fired and the moment the second police car arrived? Darren Wilson? What other source confirms it was only 90 seconds between these events? 90 seconds is so precise, there must have been a timer involved, right? Not just an adrenaline-fueled perception of timing. . .

  314. qwints says

    toska, the 90 seconds between Wilson calling for backup and backup arriving is based on recorded radio calls according to the St. Louis paper. That does not have a time for when the shots were fired, but the county prosecutor did say that there was an audio recording of the shots from a civilian that was also used as evidence.

  315. toska says

    It just seems strange to me that we should take as absolute fact, the timing of events based on Darren Wilson’s statement on when he fired the last bullet vs. when other officers actually arrived on scene.

  316. rq says

    qwints
    Ah, I stand corrected, then. Thanks.
    Which then begs the question, why didn’t he stay in the car (or drive a ways away from the danger) until backup arrived? Especially since I doubt they’d have had much difficulty in finding Michael Brown at any point afterward.

  317. rq says

    toska
    All of the shots were fired in a very quick series, as audio recordings have shown.
    The whole incident happened extremely quickly, but as qwints mentions, they synched up the police calls with inadvertent audio recording from at least one nearby civilian phone.

  318. nich says

    dianne@381:

    Because without a trial, I can’t clear my name. Trials can exonerate as well as convict. The fact that he’s not interested in facing a jury is…interesting.

    I don’t necessarily agree. A trial would be a long, time consuming process that even the most innocent would probably rather avoid. It’s kind of like saying you really wish the IRS had decided to audit you so you could prove you aren’t a tax cheat. And to a lot of the country, the grand jury decision already de facto exonerates the guy. See above for a few nasty examples.

    Remember, the vast majority of the United States is very decidedly NOT Pharyngula. They aren’t really active in forums like these so you might not hear from them much unless you are feeling particularly masochistic and decide to venture into their lairs. Somebody has to be electing all those Republicans. Here it seems like everybody thinks it’s just common sense, but outside these walls, I suspect most of America agrees with the grand jury and/or simply doesn’t care. Last night ABC broke in on a broadcast of Dancing with the Stars to run the grand jury decision and my family was PISSED that their show was being interrupted with “news about some guy I’ve never even heard of!!!!” Once the attorney got done breaking the hearts of Mr. Brown’s parents, they were just happy to get back to watching rich entertainers half-ass their way through the fucking cha-cha-cha. Attempts to educate were met with eyerolls then deaf ears.

    It was pretty fucking depressing.

  319. toska says

    Sorry, I had replied before refreshing to see qwint’s #387. The audio recordings of the shots certainly make it much more credible.

  320. Rey Fox says

    My social media feeds today have a bunch of “can’t we all just get along” sentiments. Bah.

  321. Pteryxx says

    Rey Fox: I want to answer that with “What part of ‘they kill us’ did you not understand?” /chickenrun

  322. says

    In regards to the “giant Michael Brown” idea various news reports indicate Darren Wilson is 6 foot four inches and weighs 210 pounds. Brown, reportedly 289 pounds, may have outweighed him, but I would assume a trained cop is a more dangerous in hand to hand combatant than an untrained 18 year old. Those reports also note that he had a collapsible baton and pepper spray, but claimed he thought they would be unusable In the situation he found himself in.

    It’s strange the ways some people will defend cops. A web forum I take part in has a thread,, in an “off topic” section, about the questionable seizures by police of cash from motorists. One poster made several posts claiming posters who thought this was a problem wanted to get rid of cops entirely, which no one said. Another posted pictures of a policeman killed by a criminal, which has nothing to do with the question of whether cash confiscation has gone too far. (The same forum had a thread about Ferguson this morning that they had to lock because of the behaviour of some posters, and a couple were actually banned.)

  323. Marius says

    I bet they don’t even believe the shitty excuses they come up with. They just want to see black kids dead.

  324. Ichthyic says

    Jesus fuck, there have been a shit ton of police lovers and/or racists.

    I wonder if someone close to the time when the Weimar republic got burned down, was saying something very similar…

    authoritarians sure do look like authoritarians. time does not seem to change it.

  325. says

    Also utterly unsurprising, a Republican viewpoint on what President Obama should do next:

    Rep. Peter King has a suggestion for the White House in dealing with the latest developments in Ferguson — invite Officer Darren Wilson over.

    “I think it would be very helpful if President Obama went and met with the police officer, or invited him to the White House and said, ‘You’ve gone through four months of smear and slander, and the least we can do is tell you that it’s unfortunate that it happened and thank you for doing your job,'” the New York Republican told Fox Business on Tuesday.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2014/11/peter-king-obama-ferguson-reaction-113168.html

  326. Ichthyic says

    Fucking piggies and piggy apologists are the scum of the earth

    Have you seen the bigger piggies
    In their starched white shirts?
    You will find the bigger piggies
    Stirring up the dirt
    Always have clean shirts to play around in.

  327. says

    Marcus Ranum @302

    Remember: you can tell who’s prepared to start a riot by the way they dress and what they are carrying.

    Yeah, they’re usually dressed in riot gear and wearing a badge…

  328. jrfdeux, mode d'emploi says

    timguegen #395

    Very strange indeed. Those collapsible batons (the Asp is to my understanding standard police issue) are made out of fucking high-end aluminum. Even in the hands of someone untrained you can do horrific damage with one, which is why the head/neck area is considered off limits unless you’re trying to kill your opponent. Apparently a sharp blow to the thigh is all it takes to drop even the largest opponent, so I’m very leery of claims made by Wilson et al that escalating to a firearm was justified.

    What a sickening conclusion to a horrible situation. :-(

  329. Ichthyic says

    My social media feeds today have a bunch of “can’t we all just get along” sentiments.

    sure we can. as soon as the entire history of segregation by class and race in the US actually starts being addressed by actions, instead of words.

    again.. I will post this… and again, and again, and again…

    http://www.epi.org/publication/making-ferguson/

  330. Ichthyic says

    …In their styes with all their backing
    They don’t care what goes on around
    In their eyes there’s something lacking
    What they need’s a damn good whacking

  331. says

    Rightwing religious dunderheads are jumping on the “demon” bandwagon:

    On his radio program today, Bryan Fischer reacted to a grand jury’s decision not to indict Ferguson, Missouri, police officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown, seizing upon Wilson’s testimony that he felt like he was facing “a demon” during his confrontation with Brown.

    Fischer absolutely agreed, saying that “the chances are very good” that Wilson was literally locked in battle with a homicidal demon that was possessing Brown during the altercation.

    “I think that at this point there was a demonic presence that was operating inside Michael Brown’s body,” Fischer said, “activating him, energizing him, driving him forward in this homicidal rage. So when he says he looked like a demon, I think that’s because he was looking into the eyes of a demon that was driving Michael Brown to do what he did.”

    Right Wing Watch link.

  332. says

    I was just trolled by my own fucking father about this.

    He didn’t think that McCulloch had a conflict of interest. Yet didn’t know that McCulloch had been involved with the donation collections etc. Kept saying shit like “Why should he have to bow out because of conflict of interest for having been a victim of this type of crime?”

    You read that right, my dad actually used that ‘black (boys/men) are all criminals’ dog-fucking-whistle.

    Oh and the “It’s not like the cop saw race when this was going on” line. Fuck me.

    And moved goal-posts and turned my insistence that a cop shouldn’t kill a kid (yes that was age-ist of me, sorry, they shouldn’t kill anyone) was de facto evidence I was saying it was OK for a kid to hit a cop. And shit like “well, then when are the cops allowed to protect themselves? first punch, second punch?”

    Goddammit but I’m upset right now. I’d called him to wish him happy birthday, while I was walking home from work, so it’s not like I’d prepped or prepared full a full goddamned debate! or even had access to internet to look shit up on the fly right then.

    *Sigh* He thought it was funny and thanked me for the “birthday debate”

    And yes, all his information is from Fox News.

  333. says

    A few more opinions from legal experts — most of them highly critical of Prosecutor Robert McCulloch.

    […] Ben Trachtenberg, an associate professor of law at the University of Missouri School of Law, said the entire announcement “read like a closing argument for the defense,” while Susan McGraugh, an associate professor at the Saint Louis University School of Law, said she was “furious” when she watched it. […]

    Marjorie Cohn, a professor of criminal law and procedure at Thomas Jefferson School of Law, said the way McCulloch presented the facts to the public was unlike anything she had ever seen. “In 98 percent of cases, the prosecutor would just announce the grand jury decision and that’s it,” she said. “He would not characterize the evidence defensively, or attack the media.” […]

    The astonishing rarity of a grand jury declining to indict a suspect has led many to believe that McCulloch did not make a sincere effort to prove probable cause.

    “The prosecutor did not want an indictment, and he passed the buck to the grand jury to make that decision,” said Cohn, who is also a former president of the National Lawyers’ Guild. “It was clear the prosecutor was partisan in this case, and not partisan in the way prosecutors usually are, which is to get people indicted.”

    McGraugh agreed and said that McCullouch’s presentation of the evidence was in stark opposition to his assigned role. “His duty is not to be a defense attorney. His duty is to prosecute people who break Missouri law,” she said. She then wondered whether the grand jury “consciously or unconsciously got a message about what he wanted.” […]

    “[McCulloch] put the grand jury in the role of being a trier of fact, which is not its role,” Cohn said. “The grand jury was put in the position of basically being a jury, but in a one-sided, closed proceeding. The only people inside the grand jury room are the grand jury and prosecutors.”

    In contrast, she said, “In a trial, there are lawyers on both sides, witnesses, and the evidence is presented in an adversarial way.” […]

    She added that even within the realm of grand jury proceedings, the case spoke to a lack of “equal treatment under law.”[…]

  334. says

    Rawneris

    And shit like “well, then when are the cops allowed to protect themselves? first punch, second punch?”

    Never, assuming ‘defend’ is being read as ‘shoot’. If you can’t use a baton, or your own body, to adequately defend yourself against any single unarmed opponent, you have no business wearing a uniform of any sort whatsoever (and I include that of an unarmed private security guard). Seriously, it’s the minimum standard for bouncers at dive bars, I think we can afford to hold cops to that too.

  335. Ichthyic says

    “[McCulloch] put the grand jury in the role of being a trier of fact, which is not its role,” Cohn said.

    even I knew this, and said it multiple times in this thread and others.

    I’m about as far from being a lawyer as I can imagine, yet I knew this. How is it that so many Americans don’t even grasp the most BASIC aspects of their own legal system, and continue to think this was an actual trial.

    it’s fucking insane.

  336. F.O. says

    @opoetey #46, @johnnyboy #98
    I spent a couple of threads on this blog disagreeing with everyone, throwing tantrums and insults, and am still here.
    Maybe all you need is just some intellectual integrity.
    Just sayin’…

  337. maddog1129 says

    I was wondering, was the patrol car window broken? If not, why wouldn’t you simply roll up the window to trap the arm of the person reaching in?

  338. says

    As a followup to the link provided by rabidwombat in comment #422, here are some of the tweets:

    When you don’t wait the full 15 minutes after your manicure and your polish gets dented.
    ———-
    When they toast your bread too long at Panera and your sandwich scratches the roof of your mouth.
    ————
    When you’re lying down while texting and your phone falls on your face.
    ————-
    When u get ur winged eyeliner perfect one one eye and then can’t get the other one to match
    —————
    When you don’t cut the tag out of your shirt right and that little piece keeps scratching your neck
    —————-
    Getting shocked when you touch a door knob because you forgot fabric softener

  339. says

    Officer Wilson was prepped by a defense attorney for the testimony given before the grand jury. Then Wilson was not cross examined in the way he would have been during a trial. Travesty.

  340. ck says

    Lynna, OM wrote:

    He claimed “swelling” but you can see from the two-weeks-after photo that his face pretty much always looks like that.

    His lip looks a little swollen on one side, and his cheek is a bit red, but that’s about it. Pretty minor for someone “fearing for his life”.