Gosh, I guess Eric Hovind issued a challenge to all atheists. I didn’t even notice! The only reason I know about it now is that Rebecca Watson answered it:
Hovind accuses atheists of being hypocrites for not protesting against Christmas displays of Santa Claus, because we don’t get as upset about public demonstrations of ‘belief’ in all non-existent beings. That’s because he doesn’t understand the nature of our concerns.
We have no problem with people believing in Jesus or Santa Claus, or Mohammed or Batman for that matter. There are no atheist police who will knock on your door, ask what you are thinking right now, and then arrest you for pious thoughts. We all should only care about what our neighbors do that affects us, not what they dream about.
So I’ll start protesting Santa Claus when belief affects public policy. There doesn’t seem to be any big push to advertise that Santa won’t bring you any presents if you gay-marry someone, and if there were, people would laugh at anyone who thought that was a serious worry.
I am kind of outraged at the status quo in this country, in which essentially wearing Jesus on your sleeve is a requirement to get elected to public office — that’s something we need to see changed. But no one gets elected by fervently declaring their love and devotion to Jolly Ol’ Saint Nick, and any candidate who made Santa the center of their platform would be regarded as a loon. This is not true for the many Republicans who campaign almost entirely on a Guns, Jesus, and No Gubmint platform. Replace Jesus with Santa and the response dissolves into laughter.
So no, Eric, I’m not at all worried about imaginary beings. I get worried when I see people taking imaginary beings so seriously that they lose all perspective on reality. As seems to be really taken to an extreme by a certain family named Hovind.
You can bet I’d be concerned and opposed to it if some lobby tried to enforce the creation of a Naughty-or-Nice registry with all-encompassing surveillance. I’d take issue with jollyness being mandated by law and punishable by fine or jail time. I’d have a big problem with schools starting each and every day with a Christmas song with required participation of the children included.
Yeah. It’s the same old bullshit arguments we heard before. Of course. In fact, it reminds me very much of Nonstampcollector’s video where somebody asked why Atheists weren’t opposed to Voltron. He used that opportunity to talk about a hypothetical Voltron-lobby trying to enforce Voltron-based policy. Basically, the same arguments apply here.
Oh, is it already that time? Let the one-sided war on christmas begin!
Make up your mind, Hovind. Is there or isn’t there a war on Christmas?
I disagree with his entire premise!
I object to Santa just as much, more so! Ever since I first read those dread words at 10pm on Christmas Eve (with the kids finally asleep)…
SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED
Santa asks you to be nice : no lies, no tantrums, no punching your little sister in the face…
If you behave, you’ll get a present. Even if you don’t worship him, send him elaborate love messages or grovel at his feet.
Seems like the War on Christmas gets earlier every year. They used to wait until Thanksgiving to start. Now, its before Halloween.
@6 Larry Kearney
Well, the stores start earlier each year as well. Why not the apologists?
@6: Even *Canadian* Thanksgiving has barely delimited the Christmas marketing up here, this year.
But no one gets elected by fervently declaring their love and devotion to Jolly Ol’ Saint Nick,
I dunno: let one of them deny the existence of Santa anywhere the kiddies can hear, and watch the backlash. Some grownups are just as defensive about maintaining the Santa Game as they are about the Jesus Game.
It’s a flagrant lack of respect for our lord, the Great Pumpkin. The War on Halloween must stop.
Larry Kearney @6,
Kirk Cameron started his war early this year. The trailer for his upcoming movie was released in August.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2014/08/29/kirk-cameron-saves-christmas/
http://www.avclub.com/article/kirk-cameron-make-christmas-safe-christians-208654
Well, I have to disagree with both Rebecca and Eric. It appears neither actually knows anything about gods or religion, most people don’t.
I’ll try to explain. Religion and language began together in some caves in France, and were caused by sex. Of course as we know from bibles, women were to blame. There is very little privacy in caves. Night noises, guttural male grunts at first but as early feminism arose womens voices began to be heard and the night sounds eventually evolved into oh god, oh god, yes. So people took these oh gods to heart and religion and language were born. People went around saying “oh god?” and “oh god, yes” to each other and the population of that tribe mushroomed and here we are today.
Eamon Knight
Too true and I fucking hate it. Being poor, my daughter never had the luxury of Santa. Because it’s either been free gifts donated so no control over what we get or no presents at all, which lead her to ask “Why don’t I get presents?” and “Why can’t I get what I want?” since other children do culminating with the ultra depressing “Am I bad?”.
That sucks enough but the other parents made it worse. She’s told other children because they’ve either asked or it came up “What are you getting?” and asking “What’d you do?” when finding out she won’t get anything. Even if the other kids didn’t freak out (none of them did) or anything, the parents went on a fucking rampage against us.
Jolly Ol’ Saint Nick can kiss my fat ass for spreading misery and classist “poverty is a moral problem” bullshit. Did you know kids is Africa don’t get presents so clearly they’re all bad? I’ve also heard kids regurgitate shit about “welfare scum” who shouldn’t get presents either. If they do, then clearly they’re bad since they’re lying about needing help. Fuck “Santa”.
So I had to tell her to keep it quiet after that because parents took it too seriously creating another classist barrier. I told her that when she gets older the other kids will grow out of it at least. It provided great warm up for telling her to keep quiet about what I’ve said about God because of regressive reactionaries. But there’s no silver lining on that one.
So yeah, don’t care about their imaginary friends as long as it’s not causing harm but your privilege is showing if you think Santa doesn’t qualify. (Though not on the same scale, obviously.)
Atheist should be at the forefront in promoting and preserving Santa Claus so that children can learn that the trappings of a character can exist without the character existing. And if you need faith and mysteries to explain a mystery then the skeptic flags should start waving.
I like how Hovind frames atheists as people who are/should be picketing to protest damage to young minds.
Yeah, Santa Claus and Christmas is pretty classist and privileged. I remember when, as a kid, I heard that one family didn’t do Christmas. I had no idea what that was about, and nobody explained. But I have worked with a few groups who were working hard to get presents for needy kids, and food for families.
Keep Santa as an example of a myth, and make Christmas about family, but lose the whole tons-of-presents idea. And lose the Jesus stuff (but keep the carols ( half the ukulele tunes that I can fingerpick are Christmas carols)).
JAL @ 12
Quoted for fucking truth.
I think it’s nifty keen that people with money consider Santa to be a fun bit of fantasy or babby’s first lesson in skepticism or whatever, but it does harm. It inflicts a sense of being bad and wrong for being poor in children, starting young. It’s a massive cultural cult built around framing poverty as punishment and wealth as virtue. It’s just one little shit-brick in the crap mountain of classism, but it still harms.
Fuck that. Fuck Santa.
Over and over again I am reminded of that Upton Sinclair quote about it being futile to make someone understand something when their livelihood depends on them not understanding it.
Some atheists consider Santa to be “God-on-training-wheels” and advocate protests and withdrawal against the faith-building Santa movement. But I’m more on ramaus’ side: if anything it’s practice for recognizing that just because an invisible being is nice doesn’t mean it really exists. Faith is a kind of playacting for the whimsical. There are actually Christians who want Santa out of Christmas because of just that reason. Plus Santa secularizes the holiday because he distracts from the TRUE meaning of Christmas. Yeah, right.
JAL, I’m so sorry you and your daughter had to go through that. I’m also amazed that other parents would get angry when a child says Santa won’t be bringing her anything. Jesus Fucking Christ, that’s cold.
Remind the Christians that the Pilgrims came to America to get away from Christmas. And remind them that the Puritans who stayed in England killed the son of the King James bible guy. And remind them that Jesus said to give to the poor. And that the Bible forbids decorating trees. And that “Christmas” was “Christ mass”, so it isn’t a Protestant holiday. And “holiday” was “holy day”, which is a Catholic concept.
Wait, what? I thought he was in Fed prison! How’d he get to the north pole? :-)
Cue dictionary Asantaists in 3… 2… 1…
I always liked the idea of santa claus because he’s a socialist. According to my dad, when I was a kid I apparently confused my legends with Robin Hood and asked if santa took presents from the rich and gave them to the poor. But my parents always did a good job of using myths like santa claus, paul bunyan, supply-side economics, and the batman (that one hurt!) to help us understand how important myths are to society.
Um. At the risk of being too literal…. Santa Claus is not a religion and public displays of Santa are not an endorsement or acceptance of religion. …
*takes a break to actually watch the challenge*
Actually, the challenge is even stupider. It’s not about public displays at all but about supposedly atheists protesting religion itself. He seems to be under the idea that we are protesting in front of churches and temples on a regular basis but no-one is protesting in North Pole, Alaska.
And, again, being perhaps too literal: People (adults) don’t believe in Santa Claus and don’t expect their children to maintain belief for very long.
Dumb, dumb, *DUMB* challenge.
#21 “I always liked the idea of santa claus because he’s a socialist…”
Hmmmm. These days, doesn’t Santa reflect exhorbitant consumerism, glorious capitalism and the invisible hand of the free market celebrated on December 25th? In this regard is not the display of Santa just as harmful if not more as the Jesus displays?
These days, doesn’t Santa reflect exhorbitant consumerism, glorious capitalism and the invisible hand of the free market celebrated on December 25th?
That’s not the TRUE Santa, heretic!
I like Santa cause he don’t threaten to send you to hell.
And he laughs at Hovind
Is Hovind really this dumb? Does he really not understand that atheists have a problem with how theists use their religious beliefs to justify public policy or to deny social progress?
He gives out lumps of coal to heat up the planet yerself whilst filling its atmosphere with toxic gases, so you can pretend yer in Hades.
JAL @ 12
All things considered, I’d far rather that your and Little One’s troubles with Santa were solved the other way, by getting rid of poverty instead of Santa. Not that I notably object to doing both.
woozy@22 – regardless of the existence of an Alaskan town called “North Pole”, the actual north pole is Canadian territory.
Doesn’t Hovind watch Fox Noise? According to Lord Bill O’RLY, there is a war on Christmas, and who else but Atheists would be waging that war???
Hovind, everybody knows that Santa is a big lie, parents tell their kids to make them be nice. So you’re sayin Gawd is just as much a lie as Santa? And should be attacked just the same? That because atheists overlook Santa, that atheists are inconsistent, and therefore fools?
[ … sheesh … that got out of hand …]
What I started this reply for, was to ask Hovind to watch the movie, A Christmas Story, where Santa is taken seriously…I double dog dare ya!!!
Dalillama, Schmott Guy
Oh, I’d love it if world wide poverty was gone. But Santa’s still getting his ass kicked because tying goodness to presents still means the rich kids who get more, bigger, and better presents will be seen as better with the poor kids still getting shit on. That problem doesn’t go away even if every kid can get a present on Christmas. Plus, hey even rich people benefit because children won’t take to tantrums at home or on twitter when they don’t get the color iphone they want if we stop tying material possessions to self-worth so damn young. (Or at least, lessen the phenomenon.)
Also, fuck the parents who perpetuate that shit and complain about spoiled kids who don’t understand the reality of Christmas present giving because they fucking lied to them about their whole lives first. If you teach children that good kids get what they want then of course it’s going to bite you in the ass. Because even after Santa is dead the presents=good mentality just transfers to the parents anyways. It’s not like shaking those first life lessons are easy either. Bonus points if the oblivious fuckers complain about advertising pressuring their kids with “this stuff will mean you’re cool” etc message. That’s also a problem but hey, maybe stop doing the same damn thing (getting this means you’re good) too? Plus hey, the money making dad’s won’t have that manly man pressure coming from their kids when they realize being or become poor doesn’t mean you’ve failed! Because getting things don’t you’re mean good and you’re not lesser when you don’t have them
So yeah, fuck allll that and more, especially motherfucking Santa. The only “problem” with getting rid of the fucker is people examining their privilege and letting go of their months long celebration for placing higher in the hierarchy while patting themselves on the back for donating to those poor unfortunate souls. Fox News and co. are wrong about there being a War on Christmas but there damn well should be one on Santa.
*clenched tentacle salute to The Mellow Money* Thank you.
In our house, Santa carefully followed the specs given in Twas the Night Before Christmas. He filled the stockings with cheap candy, nuts, fruit, and a few small toys. That’s all. Actual presents always came from actual people, so if a particular toy was wanted, the parents were the ones to ask, and just like the rest of the year, the answer would be either “we’ll see” or “nope, too expensive.”
I watched Eric’s original video. Same old apologetics that’s been answered a gazillion times already. Nobody is setting up organizations in Santa’s name, demanding that laws be changed to favor them, threatening non-Santa believers with damnation, or starting wars with non-Santa believers. Challenges like these have been answered so many times (just read the numerous comments under that Facebook video) I find it hard to believe Eric and apologists who use similar tactics aren’t already familiar with them. This is just more evidence to me that apologetic’s main interest isn’t trying to reach out to those on the outside, but is just to keep people already on the inside from doubting.
Eric Whovind?
moarscienceplz #32
That does sound like a good way to manage the whole thing.
sugarfrosted @34:
From Whoville.
dannysichel @29
That’s a bit of a tangent. Eric Hovind’s video was filmed in North Pole, Alaska which is a small town devoted to pretty much to being a Santa’s Village theme park. He claimed that the streets were empty of atheist and there were no protestors and thus we were being hypocritical as we are so vocal at protesting religion. So I walked by my local church, a rather large and prominent building with unambiguous displays of fairly overt religious messages, and guess what? No protestors! Where is everyone? Aren’t we supposed to be protesting religion? Well, I guess by Hovind’s logic we have all given up the fight.
North Pole, Alaska is thousands of miles south of the true north pole and is a small town on the way to Fairbanks. Apparently I’ve driven through it and don’t remember it. Not even within the Arctic Circle. By international law, the true north pole belongs to no territory. The magnetic north pole was in Canada until 2012 but now projections seem to claim it has moved out of the territory but I don’t think there is consensus.