It’s a great place for walking; I’ve strolled from the World Trade Center site to the Village to the Empire State Building to the AMNH and through Central Park. But somehow, I never experienced this:
What did I do wrong?
Amanda Hess has a few words for those who think this is all harmless.
I’m shocked.
Based on my experiences, her walk was fairly mild.
But then, it doesn’t appear she used any public transportation, and either on public trans or waiting for public trans (and other cases where you are more of a captive audience) have always been where it’s worst.
Nasty experience
ATTN: loopyj
That is called being creepy.
She’s getting rape threats.
What an unpredictable bunch the MRA are! So many varied, nuanced tactics up their sleeves.
Aaaaah!
I already move through all urban spaces like it’s 1982 in Beirut, and that started without ever seeing anything like this behavior (in person). My version of this video would have been four minutes long and ended with the camera operator watching me run off into the distance, leaving fire trails like Doc Brown’s Delorean.
I am never visiting New York unless I develop super-powers or can rent some kind of armored exoskeleton.
Suddenly Bangkok seems safer to me!
The thing that struck me was that some of those comments may have actually been just an honest attempt to start a conversation but, in the context of all the other shit flung at her over the course of the day, of course she doesn’t acknowledge it. Because you’re just sick to fucking death of random dudes you don’t know trying to demand your time and attention. So all of you guys who are always wondering what the big deal is, this is it. It’s not any one instance; it’s the context of this constant background radiation of complete strangers intruding in your space and then jeering at you when you’re not suitably flattered by their creepiness. So there’s a self-serving reason for “nice guys” to care that this happens. If the creepy, jeering dudes stopped being creepy jeering dudes, a woman walking alone through New York City might be more amenable to a man she doesn’t know asking her how her day is going in a genuine effort to get to know her.
I had to stop the video. This… is awful. I… I had no idea it could be this bad. “Someone made a compliment, you should say thank you more!” That floored me. I am gobsmacked. Dumbstruck. And very, very depressed.
I know this is probably out of left field, but I used to have my hair dyed black and white (left side black, right side white). I’d get calls and comments and such from strangers. Sometimes hostile, but usually hushed and private. But I still heard them. And I knew I could just dye it back when I got sick of it, which of course eventually I did.
But I heard it all. Even the whispers behind my back as I passed someone. I realize now, that many women experience that all the time. And I realize now, that every single thing men think they can safely whisper to each other or themselves as she passes, she hears it all. She sees you staring. Just like I did.
But she can never make them go away, like I could. And it makes me wonder why I never thought of this before. And why this is the first time I’ve ever seen a video like this. There need to be more. Many more.
That might be a valid explanation in a small town, but it just doesn’t fly in a crowded city. When I walk around San Francisco and someone talks to me while I’m walking, I’m pretty sure it’s not because they are just extra friendly people. And I’m a guy. Nope, this is aggression disguised as friendliness.
Saad @ 4
Shocked! Shocked I tell you!
Seven @ 7
I think that’s actually by far the most important, but subtle, point of this. Thanks for pointing it out to me.
Seven of Mine @7:
I thought the same thing. All the harassers helped ruin it for the people that may have been genuinely trying to talk to her.
moarscienceplz @ 9
I didn’t intend to imply that any of that was indeed not aggression. Obviously it’s entirely possible to fake genuine interest in a woman as a person with every intention of going full stalker if she doesn’t play along with your script. My point was that, even if it wasn’t aggression, it doesn’t matter because of the greater context of behavior that’s clearly meant to be intimidating. That context makes it unsafe to even consider the possibility that this guy might actually be harmless.
Pieter Droogendijk @8:
Want to be depressed more (rhetorical question)?
This video isn’t even the tip of the iceberg of what women put up with in public. This was just 10 hours out of one day in the life of one woman.
One thing to note here:
As horrible as this was, it was still mild on the scale of ‘shit women deal with all the time that men have no clue about’.
1: It was daylight for most of the walk. Not only does that diminish aggression directly, but it also means that for the largest part of it, the men were completely sober (drinking doesn’t cause aggression, but it sure as hell will embolden some guys who are already aggressive).
2: There was another person–a man, in fact–in the area nearby during the entire walk. No, they weren’t visibly together, but the presence of a potential witness will chill some of this sort of thing out.
3: As someone else noted, the prime locations for men to try to seriously harass women were not in play. Imagine having to wait ten minutes for a bus or train–if you were creeped out about ‘follows silently for 5 minutes’ dude, compare it to having to stand still and just be leered at, because you don’t know if he’s likely to get more aggressive if you tell him to piss off.
I’m actually pretty floored by how polite they are. nobody got in front of her to stop her in her tracks. no one touched her. no one got seriously flagrant.
@Pieter Droogendijk #8
Here’s another one. A young woman walks across a bridge in Cairo:
A penny for every walk like this I’ve taken.
A penny for every walk that made this one look like heaven.
A penny for every time some guy felt he had the right to order me to change my expression, as though not even my face is my own.
A penny for every time some dudes on the train waited til my boyfriend went to find the toilet (if he was with me. If alone, no waiting) before trying to start a conversation with me, uninvited, while I’m clearly involved in listening to, reading, or playing something and therefore not open to discussion.
A penny for every time my unwillingness to respond to said overtures resulted in their launching into a discussion, in minute detail, of everything that’s wrong with me, my face, my body, my attitude.
A penny for every time some shady, solitary dude in a car pulled up to where I was waiting, alone, at a dark bus stop at night on the way to my bartending job and offered me a ride, and got angry and offended when I refused, sometimes taking so long to pull away that I feared for my life if the bus didn’t come soon.
A penny for every time some scumbag pressed his erection against my back on a crowded bus because I couldn’t get away til it stopped.
I could do nothing but make videos like this for the rest of my life on those pennies.
@seesays #15
…and none of them hit her over the head with a brick and stole her purse, they’re practically saints!
I think you might have a very skewed perspective on what is “polite”.
Saad @4:
That’s so damned predictable.
Thanks for linking to that. I dropped a comment over there, but damn, that comment thread is filled with some unsavory doucheweasels.
la tricoteuse @17:
I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with so many assholes. My sympathies.
@Ibis #8: Thanks. That’s a lot of bad. What makes it worse is that there was apparently only one other girl ON that bridge.
There was one I saw a while back, about a guy dressing up as a girl (with professional wardrobe and makeup artists) to see what it’s like. Yeah, it was bad.
Don’t get me wrong, I knew this sort of thing happened, and I knew it was bad. The video is just… visceral.
We are very saddened and shaken by this video, a stark reminder of the lived experience of too many women. Even worse, the reaction (rape threats) seems to have become a cliche at this point.
Trying to cold-start a conversation with a stranger on a New York City street (or subway) is pretty much always harrassment.
I recall some education about street harassment in NY maybe 20 years ago. I was visiting a friend and I had commented on her black leather jacket. It was oversize, heavy, like a motorcycle jacket, she said it was her armor. Later walking by myself near Washington Park, mid morning, not many people on the street, a young woman was sitting on a step at the edge of the sidewalk with her head up looking out over the street. As I was passing I said g’mornin like I would in Omaha. Her head snapped down like she had been hit.
I thought I was harassed in Chemnitz because I had a beard, but that was nothing compared to that woman’s walk.
I tried to explain street harassment to a male coworker a few weeks ago. His response? “I’ve had strange women make sexual comments about me in public too!” Maybe videos like this will give him (and others like him) a clue.
If you think that’s bad – and it is – try it as a trans woman, especially a trans woman who doesn’t ‘pass’ well (i.e., is noticeably trans).
Pieter, imagine if those people you overheard were also asking “What is that? Is it a boy or a girl? What a freak!”
It adds a frisson of terror to the whole thing, believe me. To know that if things go wrong, not only will you be blamed in all the ways women are, but you may well be left to die in the street by the EMTs, as the assembled crowd laughs at you, and these days, probably videos your death for the Youtubing fun, and tagging the whole thing with the name you were lumbered with at birth, and which you haven’t used in 25 years.
Tony @ 20
Thank you. But, y’know (of course you know. You’ve been paying attention), it’s not even close to being just me. The sad thing is how surprising it is to hear a woman say she HASN’T experienced similar.
toska @26:
::facepalm::
One of the many problems that I’ve seen guys have is that they think in terms of isolated incidents, rather than an ongoing pattern of harassment women face just trying to go about their lives. Yes, vulgar sexual comments to your co-worker are bad, but I highly doubt he experiences anything close to what women go through.
****
CaitieCat @27:
::sigh::
That’s fucking horrible.
Yup. And this will only reinforce the, “Oh, she gets rape threats all the time, so we’re not taking it seriously” attitude ala Sarkeesian and Utah State.
Seven @ 7
Seconding your comment. I think the biggest barrier for men to understand sexism is that we tend to find out about it piecemeal. We don’t often get the context. Elevatorgate is I think a good example, the male critics could only see a simple invitation for coffee.
And I strongly agree that it is in men’s own interest to work against this kind of aggression. These MRA types have never been in a gathering where the women felt a high degree of safety from harassment, from sexist comments and innuendo, Obviously no group, in which they are present, can be a safe place place for women They have no idea, no inkling whatsoever how much more fun it can be for everyone when women can let their guard down.
What is this “genuinely trying to talk to her”? So if someone is ” honestly” trying to start a conversation it’s ok, is it? I think not. You don’t have a RIGHT to a conversation with a pretty woman (or anyone). If you want conversation, then stick to opening them with people who look they would be receptive to a conversation, and if not, back off at lightning speed with an apology.
Too many men just won’t get it until it happens to a person in their family, and even that won’t be enough for the unsalvageable.
CaitieCat
I’ve heard only a fraction of the degrading comments and threats that trans women receive, and it’s sickening. This is why intersectionality is so important. Street harassment is not only a cis issue.
It’s also worth mentioning that women who are less conventionally attractive than Shoshana Roberts are not safe from this. We get to hear comments about what is wrong with our body/hair/face/clothes/whatever. There is no level of attractiveness that will allow us to commute in peace.
I’ve also walked all over Manhattan on a few occasions, from Battery Park in the south to Carnegie Hall near Central Park. Never once was I bothered or spoken to by random strangers. But as a 6′ 2″ man in his 40s, I never expected to be bothered. But it doesn’t surprise me that these douchebags bother women. American popular culture generally displays no respect for women. Until we change popular culture, and make this kind of shit as unsavoury as smoking in the presence of babies, it won’t change. I don’t expect to live long enough to see it change.
Strangely enough, the only time I was ever followed and bothered on the streets of a city was in Amsterdam. Some dumb-ass American followed me for two blocks telling me that I really wanted to buy some cocaine. Said I “had the nose for it”. As soon as he opened his mouth I knew where he was from.
Tony @29
Yes to all of this. The other thing is that the women who harassed him don’t have the same power over him in a public setting that men have over women. After the comment, I tried to explain that, while it’s rude and uncool for women to sexually harass men in public spaces, it’s quite unlikely that men feel an immediate threat to their safety the same way. When a group of guys start making comments and laughing at me when I’m by myself, I immediately start looking for potential escape routes in case they start acting on their comments.
As an ordinary, not especially good-looking cis woman, this is the norm. It’s been the norm since I hit puberty decades ago. And it gets much worse, as others have stated. No grabs, no threats, no blocking. Guys, I appreciate your sympathy and shock, but this is ordinary, everyday stuff. Women know this.
I applaud this video and the people working to make street harassment visible and unacceptable.
It might be more plausible that some people were simply being nice or polite if the woman also got cheery “hellos” or “good mornings” from women as well as men. When I walk through my downtown I regularly get — and give — brief greetings to people I don’t know and they usually do the same — but I live in a very small town in Wisconsin and that’s just what we do. Watching this video was really nothing like that.
That is, taken out of context a few of the comments could be considered friendly. But, as others have mentioned, context is everything. I very much doubt that they had to edit out a lot of nice older ladies and young women wishing her a good day.
toska, #36
Precisely. It’s similar to calling a white person a white slur. I know depending on the person, that individual could be offended and hurt by it, but it is absolutely not a systemic ill of society that’s leading to white people being held back in general.
Exactly the same with this situation. A man being subjected to inappropriate comments on a busy street first of all doesn’t happen commonly (nothing compared to the rate for females), and second would not make the man feel threatened in the same way a woman would. And of course there’s also the fact that this doesn’t JUST happen on streets. It spills over to all walks of life (work place, political office, sports, etc) – which is why it’s a systemic problem that holds women back.
I’m imagining a comparison video of an attractive man walking briskly down the street with a non-smiling face for ten hours and not a single person saying a single word to him.
Of course, men do sometimes get approached and appraised, even old scarred hairy freaks like myself, but we get to treat it as an occasional bit of interesting diversion.
Tony!, #19
Don’t go back there though. Did you post using your name? I tried to look for it but it seems to have been drowned by a hurricane of misogyny that has been posted since.
I’ve gotten the odd bit of annoyance; people calling from cars, or whatever. Never more than twice in the same season, and rarely sexual. You know what I never get, though? Persistence. Never when I’m out walking about will I have someone, anyone, follow me down the street making sexual advances.
I’ve been making a bunch of comments(under hamneggwich), for the chance of doing a little bit of good. I got called a mangina. Why am I not surprised.
Years ago in a previous city, I had a young male friend who would whistle/shout at any woman found attractive running in the opposite direction on a popular jogging trail. One guy can harass a dozen of women each time he jogs. Whenever it happened (ie every time we jogged together), I fantasized about turning around, chasing the women down, explaining that I think my catcalling friend is an asshole, apologizing for his behavior, and promising to sternly chastise him. Of course, I never did that because I had an awareness of how frightening that would be.
Still, it was the only thing I could think of to help fix the situation. I chewed him out, but he kept doing it. I had a hard time articulating why it was wrong because of my own lack of understanding. Since I’m gay, I tried mimicking his shitty behavior by catcalling men (after they were too far away to hear it). In other contexts, I have found this technique of directing sexual harassment at men to be effective at getting homophobic males to rethink sexual harassment of women and homophobia at the same time. I disavow this method now, as it makes me feel super dirty and I fear it can backfire and actually normalize/reinforce harassing behavior–especially if there isn’t an opportunity for a good followup conversation.
I hope videos showing harassment from the perspective of women can serve as a much better teaching tool. I sent this video to my friend, and am using it to re-initiate the conversation. Hopefully he’s grown a bit since we last spoke.
I could use this… o_O
http://thewomansplainer.com/
Sindi: I hope so too my friend. I had a friend who did the exact same thing. On the train, outside, in the office.
I hope you have more luck than I did.
Iankoro, #15
comments may have actually been just an honest attempt to start a conversation
Based on .. what?
“Hey, I happened to be here enjoying this sidewalk and thought that you looked like someone who also enjoys this sidewalk!”
“I can tell from your backpack that you’re a fan of the Metropolitan Art Museum; I was just there. Awesome place!”
“Are those shoes comfortable? I was thinking of getting a pair and wasn’t sure if the soles were going to be too hard. What do you think of them?”
“Are you OK? Do you need help?”
“I noticed you looking around like you’re trying to figure out where you are going; I’m from around here. Can I help you find something?”
No, what’s going on is, “hey, you’re the right gender and I’m checking to see if you’d like to mate with me.” At best. Or aggression at worst.
Saad @41:
Yeah, I posted using my name. I suspect you’re right. I can’t wait to log in to Disqus to see the horrible responses I have no doubt already received. And no, I don’t think I’ll be revisiting the place.
As a straight male, this sort of crap has been happening all round me ever since I can remember – many decades. Yet I think it’s gotten worse in the last 10-20 years (although that’s just anecdotal, I don’t have any proof per se). Even as a young boy (9-12), I started to notice other boys treating girls very, very obnoxiously – I recall being very confused, as even then I could see the girls hurt and confusion plainly on their face.
Why are they being treated this way? was my thinking – this just isn’t right.
I was a plumpy, smart (and, of course, unpopular) kid – but I DO recall very clearly having the crap beaten out of me by a group of young pre-teen thugs when I finally got the courage to step in front of someone who was catcalling (don’t recall the words, but it seems like I recall something very crude and rude).
I don’t recall what I said – but 2 things stick out very clearly in my mind. The first was waking up the next day in some kind of sickbed, with my lower ‘parts’ all swollen where I’d been repeatedly kicked. I couldn’t walk for a week.
And I still remember the look I got from the same girl every time after when we’d cross in school – she’d avoid me, wouldn’t look me in the eyes. This was a smallish school, with multiple grades all mixed up – I’d see the same people year after year for a long time.
I spent the last of my junior high regularly being beat up – week after week I’d have to figure out somewhere to hide in between classes. Adults didn’t try to help, but I should admit I really didn’t know how to explain what was happening even if they did ask what was wrong. I was simply very confused – all I did was try to say this was wrong, and that girls shouldn’t be treated like that (this was even before my hormone’s kicked in – I had no idea what the differences were between the sexes, nor was I attracted (yet) to any of them.
But it felt wrong – and I ended up being severely punished for speaking up. It took quite a bit of therapy, at a young age, just to make sense of it all.
And it seemed even the girls avoided me – as the years went by, the very same girl I tried to ‘defend’ (although, truthfully, that wasn’t my intent) started hanging out with the ‘jocks’ (which is what we called them back then).
I went through most of my school years being called ‘girlman’.
I learned (without thinking about it) to avoid causing any attention – I learned that no matter the situation, no one was going to help me if I DID speak up.
So, to my later shame, I simply hid from it all.
The point of this recollection? I’m not sure, other than I think the problem is worse now. There is so much fear in the air – parents feel it (fear of ebola, fear of job loss, fear of the gov’t, fear of terrorism, fear of immigrants, etc etc), and they transmit it to their kids.
Fear causes people to do all sorts of unhealthy things to other human beings.
Now, as a post-middle aged adult, happily married for a long time, I speak up each and every time I hear something crude or obnoxious – regardless of whom it’s spoken to. I no longer fear being beat up (although it’s still possible, I suppose – although I’m much better at self defense nowadays, both physically – and mentally).
I do think it’s getting worse – people of all ages are lashing out at things, and very young people are imitating the worst aspects of their parents.
Other than speaking up – I know of no other solution – but the one thing I do know is no woman OR man should have to put up with this animalistic behavior. I’m so sorry women (and it’s nearly always women) have to experience this.
If it was possible (or useful) to apologize for the entire male population, I would.
What is so infuriating to me is that a lot of men (and women, I suppose) know that this stuff happens but they still defend it because “How will anyone ever get a date if they can’t approach someone?!” and things of that nature. Like their argument is literally that the human race will come to an end because people aren’t allowed to street harass other people. Bonus points for people who actually talk about over-population quite frequently and then use this argument every single time the issue comes up.
The first time I experienced street harassment, I was in middle school, riding the bus. A man in a vehicle was trying to get my attention by sticking his tongue between his fingers while driving. He followed my bus for a really long time.
The second time, I was walking. A truck of guys much older then myself drove by and whooped at me, circled the block, slowed, whooped some more, circled the block… and I hid as quickly as I could, taking alleys and side streets until I was, I hoped, blocks out of their target area. I was 13.
Between that first time and that second time, and hell, even before, were the boys at school who’d lift my skirt when I wore a dress (6th grade), who’d paw at me in the halls (7th and 8th grade), and all the teachers who told me if I didn’t like it I should tell them to stop.
This is basic, all the fucking time, background noise shit, guys. From as young as I can remember, I’ve been gaslighted like hell over this shit. Oh, it’s not that bad, oh, but he was cute, oh, but he liiikes you, oh, you need to stop being so sensitive and learn how to accept a compliment. This video isn’t shocking. It’s basic background noise for girls and women’s lives, and not only that, we get to deal with people telling us that it isn’t happening.
iankoro@18:
Pretty sure that ceesays @15 was being at least a little sarcastic, and was saying that xir experiences with street harassment are worse than those shown on the video.
actually no, I was pretty surprised that no one got in front of her, no one touched her, no one did anything really crazy. I kind of take the level of harassment actually depicted in the video as minimal to “okay walk beside me for five minutes without saying anything, WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT?” (seriously, what the hell was that? I started wondering if he was walking beside her to prevent further harassment, and then I was just giving my computer the WTF face because — WTF?)
I’d call that ten hours of walking and not much happened. Everyone who addressed her was harassing her, and they didn’t know that they were being filmed. a couple of her harassers seemed genuinely put out that she didn’t respond to them at all, but no one got in her way. Nobody touched her. Nobody got really crazy. Not bad.
I would have predicted much worse. Much more aggressive, much more frightening. but maybe it’s because the woman who filmed this demonstration isn’t Black. I’m not even certain a Black woman *could* film this demonstration in exactly this way. I think someone would try to hurt her.
@ Marcus Ranum & Malachite
Jesus fuck, I understand. Did you just stop reading at that one sentence? I think it’s entirely possible that some guy, not grasping the wider context of the way women are badgered on the street all the time, might have thought saying “hello” to a woman as she passes was just being friendly. I mean we know these men exist, who mean well but don’t get the context. There the ones who say “I know women have it pretty bad but I don’t understand what the problem is with this.” The world isn’t fucking divided into harassers and staunch feminist allies. There are men in between who have no desire to contribute to this but just don’t fucking get what its like.
And yes, it’s still entitled behavior at best but mostly, IMO, because of the wider context of the constant background radiations of demands on your time and attention. Without the context of someone demanding your attention literally every 5 minutes, often in a very intimidating fashion, I also think it would be entirely possible for total strangers just to say “hello” to someone walking past without that person feeling preyed upon. It’s the fact that you already feel preyed upon that makes even a simple “hello” sound threatening. Yes that simple “hello” could just be an attempt to disguise more threatening behavior.
My point was that even if you are that rare beast who really just thought he was being friendly, It. Doesn’t. Matter. because, in the wider context, it’s unsafe to even consider the possibility. If we changed this culture where women’s bodies and time and attention are seen as public property, I don’t think we’d view a “hello” from a stranger as threatening. Because it wouldn’t have been meant to be. Because we’d fully expect that stranger to be able to take no answer as “no” and move on with the realization that not everyone he’s interested in will return his interest.
I use to drive cabs. A lot of nights I didn’t feel like gas bagging with the customers, I just rather drive then to their destination. I wasn’t unhappy, or sad, I just didn’t feel like talking.
Invariably I’d get someone who was out for a night on the town. They wanted to chat, and laugh, and carry on. If I didn’t play along, they’d start getting aggressive towards me. Like I was suppose to be in a party mood, because they were. One middle aged man threatened to punch me unless I started talking to him.
But what I went through is nothing to this video. Hell, if I had to put up with that behaviour, I would have taken someone’s face off within half an hour.
Wow. I mean, the hollering and comments must be more than awful enough already, but the people walking along are really creepy. Nay, outright scary.
In 1994 my high-school marching band was in the St. Patrick Day parade in NYC. The flag corps was in a single file on each side of the band, so closest to the crowds. I happened to be close to the left side of the formation. The route was lined with barricades, and behind them were New York’s finest. For the entire parade the 13 to 18 year-old girls marching near the crowd were subjected to the most denigrating, violent, and sexual language that I had ever heard. The vast majority of overt sexual expressions came from the boys in blue.
The girls playing instruments were also berated for wearing less than revealing uniforms. It was 10 fucking degrees out and cops were telling high-school girls that they weren’t being as sexual as the flag corps- who weren’t being sexual enough.
That is fucking terrifying…
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My friend lives in Chicago. She’s trans. She’s had guys on the bus stand behind her and try to rest their their balls on her shoulder. She’s been followed and afraid to walk home, because they will know where she lives. She has the added fear that the men harassing her will discover that she’s trans and lash out violently. She left our small town to escape the bigotry and this is what she found. She’s so depressed right now. I worry about her.
I live in a small town. I’ve never had a walk like that. Sometimes they honk and yell things out of the window, but most guys you pass on the street give a friendly nod and keep walking. My theory is that in a small town they can risk a drive by, but if you see their face there is a good chance that you might recognize them later. For all they know, you sit next to their mom in church.
I’m an older white guy, in a Midwestern town, and occasionally someone in a passing car (or more often, pickup) will harass me when I’m riding my bike. Young men, mostly, and their shouted comments have to do with my bike, my orange jacket, or (unintelligible). I ride every day, and this happens maybe once a month on average. It always makes me feel unsafe. What the hell are they on about? Is this the one that will play “bike bump” with his car? Couple times I’ve had them circle around the block, obviously drunk. I’m not doing anything special, just going about my business. You don’t get to my age on a bike by riding dangerously.
So in other words, she experienced in one day the number of incidents I endure in about nine years. And (noting comments from other women) presumably every day before and every day after. How do they do it? I’d be a wreck. It shouldn’t take courage and steely resolve just to leave the house.
@ceesays #47
I’m sorry if I put you off, but you could have been more clear. Had you preceded you post with “This is different from my experiences with street harassment, in that…”, then your message would have been clearer.
What you wrote could have just as easily started with “I don’t get what all you SJW’s are complaining about. I’m actually pretty floored by how polite they are…. “
Georgewiman, if I might point out, it’s not so much steely resolve as ‘well, gotta eat, so gotta go into the world.’ It’s difficult to grasp the background radiation aspect of this for women. I got a crash course; Day One after transition, and I got a very VERY different experience walking to the bus stop. And waiting for the bus. And riding the bus. And being at work. And coming home. And in the grocery store. And when I was refereeing. And driving. Walking. Cycling.
Existing.
Guys, you’ve got the privilege to find this shocking and unexpected. But every single woman you’ve ever seen knows about it in her bones. She doesn’t get that privilege.
And as ever, with systemic misogyny, the guys who do it are generally disinclined to listen to women saying it needs to stop. How do I know? Because we’ve been telling you for decades, and you’re still able to be shocked.
Which means this one is down to you, lads; what will you do?
Since you bring up race into this, I wonder what do SJW make of the fact that a big proportion of the guys harrasing her were black? I counted about half of them. Which says a lot considering that blacks are way less than half of the population.
I know that merely bringing it up means I’m super racist and a terrible person, but I’m actually curious.
alejandro, what does it say about you that your first reaction is not “holy shit, this is horrible”, but “great, how can I use this to score points against people who are trying to be decent human beings?”
alejandro #64
What I gathered from that is that you either don’t know how to read or you didn’t bother to watch the video until the end where in it says in bold text “100+ instances of verbal street harassment took place within 10 hours, involving people of all backgrounds.” That video doesn’t contain even close to a hundred comments.
Also, watch the video again and notice how most of the men she walks by are black. Of course in that clip you’ll see a lot of black harassers.
I doubt you’re actually curious. Actually curious people don’t say shit like this:
@ceesays @ 53 – As shitty as the video is, I had similar thoughts. Women don’t just get talked to, they get physically intimidated, shoved, groped, etc. routinely. The language in this wasn’t even half as bad as some of what I’ve heard, either in profanity or explicitness. I think it being daylight does make a difference – there are more panhandlers and fewer drunken fools.
I work in DC down near the mall, so other than homeless people asking everyone for money, I haven’t seen an enormous amount of catcalling. I’m only there on weekdays and only on the subway during rush hour though, and the crowds tend to reduce this behavior a bit (because it is predatory behaviors and predators aren’t stupid, that’s why this doesn’t happen to women when they are visibly in the company of men nearly as much as it does when alone – another reason why so many men have no idea the scope of the problem. Men literally do not harass a woman who is perceived as “belonging” to another man, so you get the “Well I don’t see this happening so it can’t be that bad!” crap).
I just realized this is “I want hot wimmenz in mah vidya games” alejandro @ 64
Sorry, I tend to forget people like you quickly. Congrats for outing yourself as a sexist and a racist. You could be a valuable asset in intersectionality studies.
In response to the inevitable “how do I talk to a stranger on the street” questions:
For what it’s worth, I (male) have had, well, not exactly conversations, but verbal exchanges with people I didn’t know, including women, in public places in NYC.
In all cases, it’s been about the situation we’re in, usually commiserating. Like the time a woman and I (among many, many others) were stuck on a subway that wasn’t going anywhere, and we both independently decided to switch to the local, but one station later, _that_ one sat for 20 min. in the station. We traded a few war stories while we were waiting.
I’ve also approached people who looked lost (pretty common in popular tourist areas) and offered directions. Never a problem.
A couple of things made the interaction on the subway different from the “chat up a random chick on the street” (I’m going to get real analytical here):
1. We had an occasion and a reason for talking. One that wasn’t ultimately about someone getting into someone else’s pants (or wallet.) NYC is full of people trying to get into your wallet. If you’re female, they’re trying to get into your pants _and_ your wallet. If you give a New Yorker any reason to suspect that you’re one of them, you can count on a frosty response.
2. It didn’t interrupt anything. We were both just standing around waiting.
3. I started with a comment that she could have ignored without it being awkward. (She could have pretended/assumed it wasn’t addressed to her.)
4. If she hadn’t responded, that would have been the end of it. You have to respect that people may not want to interact with you. The why doesn’t matter and is none of your business, anyway.
5. I never said anything that would not have been entirely appropriate if said to a man.
6. I didn’t try to make it more personal or to prolong it. I don’t expect conversations with strangers to go any further than this.
New Yorkers are, despite their reputation, pretty friendly, on the whole, if you approach them properly.
Sigh, reminds me of the hassle that my ex-g/f went through. Rarely problems with me there (I’m 6ft 2 and loom quite well) but on own, even going home after work, she’d get all sorts of crap. Starts with cajoles, ends in insults.
She was also mixed-race Filipino/Caucasian which seemed to add to the problems.
alejandro @ 64
Well alejandro, some of us (not including you apparently) understand how statistics work. We understand that the number of black men pictured engaging in street harassment in a 2 minute long video is not actually a sample it would be reasonable to draw any conclusions from. You, on the other hand, fell all over yourself to seize an opportunity to try to deploy a clumsy little gotcha. Because you’re as fucking stupid as you are bigoted.
Saad @68:
Subject “Alejandro” has exhibited racist and sexist tendencies. We’ll keep him under observation to see whether homophobia or transphobia manifest next, as these things sometimes come in 3’s.
I find this assumption that some of these men were being polite and maybe just wanted to talk to her pretty fucous. That’s not polite. She was walking, clearly with somewhere to go. It’s RUDE to stop someone who is *walking* to a destination just to chat and say hello. No one would stop a man who is walking in such a way, with a purpose — no one would stop a man walking down the street “just to chat”.
I find it pretty ridiculous that so many people here are giving these guys a pass. “Well, maybe they just wanted to have a conversation!”
Uh, no. No they did not.
A woman isn’t obligated to have a fucking conversation with every STRANGER she happens to walk by. Again, this wouldn’t happen to a man.
A large majority of these men weren’t merely saying “Hello” or “good afternoon” and they certainly didn’t need directions. They were INTERRUPTING HER while she was busy (walking to a destination, which was obvious by her gait).
It’s RUDE very least, and out-right aggressive at the worst, and fully sexist eiehter way.
I’m 62 and still experience some shit, especially when I walk with my 23yo daughter. “MILF” is not a compliment in any way. Intimidating and threatening.
marilove@ 72 – Indeed. Some of them appeared to be trying to get money or hand out fliers, etc., but if a man blew past those guys without responding nobody would scold them for ignoring the dude by saying “Maybe he just wanted to have a conversation! You’re being so rude!”
Also a woman waiting at a bus station or for a light to change is not fair game because she’s “just standing there.”
Foolishly, I looked at some of the comments on the article. I remember when the big twofer posts at Shapely Prose on street harassment and Schroedingers Rapist blew up within a few days of each other and here we are, years later, still having the exact same arguments. “Maybe he just wanted to talk! Maybe he was trying to be polite! Some women like that kind of attention, my girlfriend told me so! Why do you think the worst of men? So men can just never approach women ever THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IS GOING TO DIE OUT!” And on and on and fucking on.
Sorry, the Also a woman waiting at a bus station or for a light to change is not fair game because she’s “just standing there.” part was not directed at marilove but to the various trolls of the internet who might see hir comment and try to use it as a loophole.
For true parity he needs straight males harassing him. Or even just males. Have him walk through a prison yard wearing a skirt and see how he feels.
I’ve shared this story before, but I’d like to once again share an example of a man complimenting me on the street hat WASN’T harassing and was actually really pleasant and has remained with me.
Earlier this year, late spring in Phoenix, I was walking to work at about 10am. I had gotten off on the last light rail stop in downtown Phoenix, and was walking on the sidewalk, with the light rail to my right. The area isn’t very busy and there was no one else about.
As I walked, I saw a man waiting at and leaning against the light rail station. He was looking at his cell phone in his hands. As I walked nearer to him, he looked up.
I had put on a dress and tights (since it was still *almost* cool enough for them), had my hair up, and had put on makeup. I was feeling pretty and there was a lovely breeze and I was walking with my head up, clearly in a good mood.
The man looked at me, gave me a big smile, and said (not verbatim but close), “Well, hello, ma’am! You look lovely today!” I gave him a big smile back and said, “Thank you!”, very sincerely.
He smiled at me big again, said, “You’re welcome!” and then went right back to looking at the cell phone in his hands.
As someone who has spent the majority of her adult life without a car and therefore taking public transportation in and near downtown Phoenix (the 5th largest city in the US), I have a LOT of experience with street harassment (and bus harassment), this was a nice change. It was probably one of the VERY FEW sincere “compliments” from strangers I’ve received that was not aggressive or creepy.
The biggest thing is that his posture never changed. He didn’t move from his position and he certainly didn’t make a move toward me. He remained relaxed, with open and friendly body language. His smile was big and friendly, and not a sneer or a smirk. His tone was polite and respectful. After he complimented me, he didn’t say anything else, or make any move toward me, and went right back to what he was doing.
THAT was lovely and it really made my day, his compliment made me feel good about myself, and it’s really stuck with me. The dress I was wearing that day is now a favorite of mine. :)
NONE of the guys in the video shared here was ANYTHING like my experience I just shared. Body language, tone — it’s all important. “Hey baby” is not at all polite, and neither is, “Hello” said in a smarmy, leery way.
gijoel #55
While it might not as first seem so, I think this is actually very on point. I interpret this behavior a a result of viewing the cab driver as part of a service class; a cab driver exists to provide a service and some people think that this service includes chatting. For a cab driver, that’s not completely unreasonable, since it’s a result of a paying job, though one could argue that chit-chat isn’t really part of the job description.
However, it seems a lot of men similarly view women as a service class, just by virtue of their gender. Just like you expect a cabbie to drive you around, some men expect something from women, just because they’re women. As a woman, you can’t quit or take a day off, nor will you receive a paycheck, but these men still think that you owe them something (smiles, conversation, time and attention in general) and if you don’t provide it, they’ll get angry. You’ve refused them something they think they’re entitled to.
You’ve never taken a walk through NY, have you?
What I make of this is that she was harassed by men of a racial makeup roughly corresponding to their representation in the population she walked by. It says something that you thought there was a significant difference.
This is yet another example of why Alejandro is banned. Jebus, but #gamergaters are generally awful people.
And I’m also a Chatty McChatalot when I’m in a good mood and if someone, including a man, starts talking with me while I’m waiting for the bus or at the stop light, and he’s polite, I’ll totally chat back. “Hey, how are you doing today?” I will respond to. As well as missives about the weather or grumblings about the late bus. As long as they are polite. Simple compliments (“that outfit really flatters you!” or “you have lovely hair!”) is totally fine and I will say thnk you – again, as long as it’s polite. That said, if I’m NOT in the mood to talk or am having a bad anxiety day or am not feeling well, then I am under no obligation to respond and I do not owe anyone, particularly a stranger, my time or a conversation.
It’s okay to start conversations with people, politely. But if they aren’t responding, then drop it. Smile an say,”Have a good day!” and drop it.
This advice also goes out to older woman who seem to think I am the perfec person to tell their life stories to, whether I am in the mood to chat with a STRANGER or not.
I don’t even believe I owe my friends a family converation at any time. I certainly don’t think I owe complete strangers my time.
I am on an old version of IE at work and man oh man… my terible spelling/typos show that lol. I type too fast for it to keep up, it’s hilarious.
marilove @ 81
THIS.
This is the thing about bus/train (and any captive audience) harassment that I hinted at above. Men in groups on trains here in the UK, at least, particularly if there’s football (or if it’s a stag do), can get loud and boisterous and try to engage nearby (mostly) women by methods of varying okayness. And you almost can’t safely refuse to talk to them, male or female. There’s more of them. They’re often a bit drunk. And they’re often very stereotypically manman types (both blue- and white-collar variety). And they view anyone who doesn’t want to engage as NO FUN at best. And will carry on telling you so. Loudly and insistently. And often abusively, and potentially violently.
They behave as if you literally do owe them your attention, especially if you’re a woman, and you’re fair game for whatever they feel like heaping on you if you don’t play along. They may not all be malicious, but at the very best it betrays a startling lack of awareness/empathy/concern for anyone who isn’t them.
iankoro:
non-apology not accepted.
I’m a woman and I live in a small city in the Canadian prairies, and I have to say, although I’ve lived in larger urban centres like Edmonton and Saskatoon as well, I’d never really experienced this. Until I went to Europe. Paris. It was kind of terrible. My sister and I were harangued by a group of guys walking down the street one night for several minutes because we’d failed to respond when they tried to engage us in conversation. Then later taking the metro back to our hotel, our friend elected to stand rather than take the one spare seat left open which was next to an older man. The older man was apparently extremely insulted that she’d rather stand than sit next to him and then proceeded to yell at her for the next 5 stops until he got off. It. was. awful. And I just don’t get that back home. At least not as often, and never as severe as that. Maybe there is some sort of emboldening affect that the anonymity of a large city has, similar to the internet? I know that here, if someone did that, chances are I know them, or I know someone who knows them. And maybe that idea means people are less likely to behave like assholes to a certain extent.
marilove @ 78 – I’m a bit dubious about sharing stories of someone commenting on your (generic) appearance in public where it wasn’t unwelcome, because it could open the door to the idea that there is a “right way” to do it. I can easily see other men going “Well THIS WOMAN HERE said she was okay with this approach, so why are you being a bitch and not reacting the way I want?” if someone rejected that kind of approach. Male entitlement already has men all over the place insisting “Well some women like that kind of attention” as if that’s an excuse. Stories like this only feed that narrative.
I would have found what that man said offensive. I don’t want to be bothered by people while I’m living my life, especially not while I’m trying to get from point A to point B. If I wanted social interaction with other people I would seek out an environment where that is the norm. Existing in public is not an invitation to try and engage someone in conversation. The root of this problem is men believing that existing in public while female equates to women asking for it and deserving it, whatever crap gets thrown at them.
I don’t think so. I lived in Edmonton, and got regularly harassed on the street there.
marilove @78:
I’m one of the few people who said anything close to that. Since then, I’ve been sitting back, shutting up, and listening.
Oops, sorry.
My comment @87 is directed to Marilove @73, not 78.
Maybe they just wanted to discuss ethics in game journalism.
The Mellow Monkey, #89
Laughed out loud. Thanks.
This thread reminds me of a time I was at a conference at a hotel. I was waiting in the lobby for an elevator to take me back to my room. A teenaged girl showed up, maybe 14, in her swimsuit with a towel wrapped around her, clearly just coming from the hotel pool. The doors opened and I got in. She didn’t. I didn’t make anything of it, but while riding up to my floor, I reflected on how frightening it must be for a girl or a woman who feels even a little vulnerable to get into a closed space with a strange man.
I was well dressed and groomed and everything, and the look on my face was probably one of exhaustion as it was a terribly long day, so I doubt I was giving off anything that could be mistaken as creep vibes, but even so, I kind of get why she didn’t get on the elevator. It wasn’t me, it was the situation.
# 85 Arwen Leigh Were you out on a Saturday night? I hate to say it, but that is the night many people come from the suburbs, often of arabic origin, in groups to get drunk, and one can have problems with them. Everyone can call me a racist, but that is the reality. I am a Parisian male and like many others I just don’t go out that night unless I have a definite rdv for something. In 30 years, I have never seen something like the encounter with the older man in the metro. Women, as well as men, often stand when seats are available. I usually prefer to stand. I was surprised one night when a younger person offered his seat to me like I was an old man. I think you just crossed a weirdo.
It also depends s on the neighborhood. The Champs-Elysées is bad on Saturday night, well most nights. There are many active smaller neighborhoods where you would have had no problems. Look up a travel guide or two to find more friendly places. I know many, some of which may not even be in the guides.
Thanks, Tony!, I appreciate it. Sill, what’s worrisome is that was your first thought. You (and others) immediately assumed there might be a legit reason that people (men) would randomly stop women as they were walking down a street, and merely to have/start a conversation. At the very least, wouldn’t you find it rude if you were constantly being stopped “just for conversation” while walking down a street, clearly with places to be and things to do? I do wonder why you and others didn’t immediately consider that, and also the fact that it’s highly unlikely that you, or any other man, *would* have many people (male or female) stopping you in the street as you walked “merely to have a conversation”.
This isn’t only directed at you, Tony! and is mostly just thinking out loud.
I just find it interesting that so many people, mostly men, seem to immediately consider that it might be okay to stop a woman walking down the street to “have a conversation” or that such a thing is likely what was happening, anyway, especially considering that sort of thing just does not seem to happen to men at all.
While some of those men, misguided as it may be, were honestly trying to strike up conversations, they are like the old women Marilove mentions (and I’ve had to deal with endlessly). Their attention is unwanted, especially as this woman is going somewhere. I could *maybe* understand if they tried to strike up a conversation at a “do not walk” signal, but even that is presumptuous and rude. I think this way and I’m a guy. I would never try to talk to anyone that looked like that unless I was horribly lost and nobody else was around. Even then I’d say “Hey, can you help me?” and respect if they ignored me or said no. I don’t understand people who do this stuff…
And, methuseu, I don’t think these men were like those older women — at least those women try to talk to you while you’re NOT WALKING somewhere. These men were interrupting this woman. Interrupting her. And not because they were lost or had a question. I don’t care how “nice” their words may seem, it’s rude to interrupt someone like this. Just plain rude.
The reason people seem to think it’s perfectly okay for random men to *rudely interrupt* a woman while she’s on her way somewhere is because they believe women exist to entertain the men around them.
Sorry for mangling your nym, methuseus.
marilove @ 78 – I think it’s problematic to share stories about there being a “right way” to do this. I can easily see men saying “Well hey this one woman here said this was okay with her so I can totally get away with it!”
I have pretty severe social anxiety, so ANY attempt at talking to me that is not borne of obvious need (lost tourists, for example, I run into them a lot. For a city that’s technically a grid DC is confusing as hell) is unwelcome, regardless of who it comes from. So the idea that there are good and bad ways to approach a stranger and talk to them in a non-social public space troubles me a lot.
And comments from a man on a woman’s appearance or body, regardless of tone or intent, can’t escape the context that existing while female in public is considered default consent by a lot of men, as the video shows.
randay, #92
I don’t doubt that’s the reality, but your motives behind mentioning that piece of information is what gives people the idea you’re racist. I don’t doubt your statement that these people you’re talking about are often of Arab origin. It’s not the information I have a problem with; it’s your reason for feeling like it needs to be mentioned in that story. Just think how many people of Arab origin aren’t involved in such activities. With that in mind, why did you feel you had to mention that?
Also, anytime one is about to start a sentence with “I hate to say it…” or even worse, “I’ll get called a racist, but…”, it’s a good idea to pause and do a quick review of what you’re about to say, and more importantly, why you want to say it.
marilove @93:
This may be another bit of sexism that I’ve retained. That’s why I’ve chosen to listen and not comment as much.
I will say that living in the South, one thing I’ve noticed is a tendency on the part of men and women to greet people they pass, whether at the supermarket, the convenience store, at the mall, on the street, etc. Even though I’ve lived in the southern US most of my life, it still stands out to me when people say “hey, how’s it going” or “how are you” to me (or when I hear it directed at others). In almost all the cases, these are complete strangers asking these questions, and the questionee is just moving about their daily existence. The thing is, most people respond back. I’ve been critical of this in the past because it seems insincere to ask “how are you” to someone you pass on the street, that you don’t know and likely won’t ever see again, and probably don’t *really* want to know about. “I’m having a bad day. My car broke down, my dog died, and the utility company just shut off my power” doesn’t seem like the response people want to hear. It seems to me like it’s more of a cultural tradition. “Southern Hospitality”.
So I think part of the problem I had is that in addition lingering sexism on my part, I think some of the comments in the video reminded me of how people interact in the South.
I don’t deny street harassment. I watched the video and overwhelmingly I saw men intruding on her space, feeling entitled to her attention. I think I misread a couple of people though. I’m sorry.
# 94 methuseus,In Paris I often see tourists, or even Parisians, looking at a map or just looking around for a street in my neighborhood. I ask them, even a single woman, what they are looking for. As I can speak or at least understand a couple of other languages, I can give them indications. Single women even come up to me to ask directions. I guess in some way I am not threatening. Who knows why?
@marilove 95, 96
I understand typing issues; I have them plenty.
As for my comment about older women, I completely agree with everything you said. The difference for me, specifically, is that those types of women (and sometimes men) will stop me when I’m on a mission just to tell me their story. I assume they’re stopping me because they need help or something, then, because I’m a little socially awkward, I don’t know how to exit the conversation I didn’t realize had started. This has happened to me while walking hurriedly along the sidewalk and verifying directions on my phone. I really don’t know why it happens to me so much.
All that said, I am not trying to downplay street harassment of women. When these things happen to me it is merely an annoyance, and not the aggressive harassment in this video.
drst @97
Well, there is a right way to communicate with people when you’re in public, and that entails treating them like human beings (rather than singling women out and treating them like objects).
I re-read what I wrote and I forgot to mention that he and I made eye contact, and I gave him me a big smile before he said anything (as I was walking toward him, he to my left kind of min the middle of the road as it is split there to accommodate the light rail).
So, I wasn’t just walking by without acknowledging him. I think him acknowledging me was acceptable (as long as it remained polite, which it did) because I did acnkowledge him first (and I think that’s important and should have been included in my initial post).
My intention was only to swat off the inevitable MRA cry of “but now men can’t talk to or accknowledg women in public at ALL without seeming sexist, no matter what!” and I don’t think that’s at all correct or what any of us are getting out. Not as a specific example of how one should act, but rather that men and women CAN commuicate and without it being considered harrassment.
I’ve complimented people (men and women) on the streets before, but only if we’ve already made eye contact. “Wow, I love your scarf!” is a big one with men and women (I just recently moved to Vermont and I am new to this whole scarf thing lol), or with guys it’s usually, “Your dog is the cutest”. There IS one guy I see wakling his dog nearly every afternoon who clearly has no desire to talk to anyone as he tottally grunted in response to my “cute doggy!” remark, so I’ve not said a word to him since (I do grin like a fool at his dog but I can’t help it). I have also said, “Fantastic beard!” at least once to a man and I didn’t see anything wrong with that (he grinned and said thank you).
Can you clarify? I get lost sometimes (I’m in a new state and town), or sometimes I’m not sure where the bus stop is or if the bus I’m looking for picks up at a certain spot. Is it NEVER okay to approach a stranger? Is it not okay to acknowledge and say hello to people at all? Should not compliment a nice beard or nice scarf? I completely accept that I may just not be thinking about this in a nuanced enough fashion.
Tony!
I see that he has managed to annoy the overlord and met the banhammer. I found his comment in the Breitbart thread about horrible leftists accepting unnatural men who smear lipstick all over their faces to ring the homophobe and transphobe bell. I could have pointed out that cosmetics aren’t natural by definition, but it was more fun to taunt him with battle boobs.
@63 CatieCat “Which means this one is down to you, lads; what will you do?”
I posted the video on Facebook and Twitter with the request that all my friends with boys in high school have their boys view it. I wish I had seen it when I was that age.
“we’ve been telling you for decades, and you’re still able to be shocked.”
Yeah. Everything that happened after elevatorgate has been an education for me. Hopefully for a lot of guys.
Hmmm, as a white woman, I have never had to worry that any adult stranger I may approach will find me threatening. In this video, very few are trying to approach her at all, they’re just leering and treating her as if she is walking down the street for their own personal entertainment. That one dude who says bless you and walks behind her oggling her ass with tilted head is one of those extremely creepy things that happen to me a lot. I don’t mind sincere and appropriate compliments, but “OOooo baby, look at dat ass!” just makes me want to turn around and smack the oogler in the face. It’s even more fun when you ignore the comments and they follow you and accuse you of being racist for ignoring their awesome ass compliments. The worst one was the dude who actually got into his truck and started following me. Since I did not want him to know where I lived I had to confront him on the street and point out that I wasn’t acting like I was too good for him, he was giving off “It puts the lotion in the basket vibes.”. His eyebrows nearly shot off his face when he realized that HE was that guy. I still feel very lucky that he listened and drove away, rather than escalated his stalking.
They should do one of these videos on what it’s like to play multi-player video games on a public server as a woman (or gay, trans etc.).
@Georgewiman – spreading the video is a good start. Speaking up when you see it happening is good too – and learning to see it when it does happen is the most important contribution a man can make to the solution, beyond “guys, don’t do that”.
@105 – Tethys, I’ve had one like that, sort of. I was walking home late one night, pre-mobile era, and noticed a man walking up behind me along the railway line, which was quite dark as shaded by trees and running between back gardens.
I pulled up, crossed the tracks, and waited at the next road crossing, not making eye contact, so that he’d be in front of me, and I could get home without having to be tense with battle-readiness the rest of the way. He took offence to my doing so, asked me why i was doing it. I said that I was a disabled woman walking home alone in the dark, and that I’d be more comfortable with him in front of me than behind me, especially as I was walking slowly with my cane.
That really set him off. He was all up in my face, shouting how unfair it was that I was treating him like a rapist, that he was totally a decent guy and I shouldn’t convict him without knowing him and he had rights too. And to prove what a nice, unthreatening guy he was, he started to follow me home, walking about a foot behind me. I mean that literally. He was walking so close behind me that I could see his feet between mine as I walked. Not touching me, of course, as he kept reminding me. It was the grownup, scary version of “my older sibling in the back seat”.
Followed me all the way to my apartment’s front door, about ten more minutes’ walking at my pace. Then when I pointed out the security camera, he remembered he had an urgent appointment with a toilet or a laundry or something, and fucked off.
So what do I do? Do i report that to police? What are they going to do? “So, ma’am, your complaint is that he was not touching you? How much have you had to drink tonight, ma’am?” Do I confront him? Verbally, I did, and that only because I’m confident in my military self-defence skills, but physically I didn’t. I made plans for how to do so, but I didn’t use them. Because if I start something, and end up dropping the bro quickly, who are the police going to believe? If you say, “the trans woman who won the fight”, you need to send me the RGB value of the sky in your world.
I could literally fill pages with the encounters like that I’ve had. Pages and pages. BIG pages, with 8-point font and terrible overkerning and no margins or gutters. Not all of them ended with the harasser walking away leaving me untouched.
And as shit as my experience in that regard has been, it’s nothing compared to that of a WOC. And trans WOC just mostly get killed, rather than catcalled. It’s a spectrum; many of my trans sisters of colour who die, their experience starts as harassment. The difference between “Hey, why won’t you smile at me?” and “Die, bitch whore!” is one of degree. They both begin from an overweening sense of entitlement to women’s bodies and time and attention.
@Georgewiman – spreading the video is a good start. Speaking up when you see it happening is good too – and learning to see it when it does happen is the most important contribution a man can make to the solution, beyond “guys, don’t do that”.
@105 – Tethys, I’ve had one like that, sort of. I was walking home late one night, pre-mobile era, and noticed a man walking up behind me along the railway line, which was quite dark as shaded by trees and running between back gardens.
I pulled up, crossed the tracks, and waited at the next road crossing, not making eye contact, so that he’d be in front of me, and I could get home without having to be tense with battle-readiness the rest of the way. He took offence to my doing so, asked me why i was doing it. I said that I was a disabled woman walking home alone in the dark, and that I’d be more comfortable with him in front of me than behind me, especially as I was walking slowly with my cane.
That really set him off. He was all up in my face, shouting how unfair it was that I was treating him like a rapist, that he was totally a decent guy and I shouldn’t convict him without knowing him and he had rights too. And to prove what a nice, unthreatening guy he was, he started to follow me home, walking about a foot behind me. I mean that literally. He was walking so close behind me that I could see his feet between mine as I walked. Not touching me, of course, as he kept reminding me. It was the grownup, scary version of “my older sibling in the back seat”.
Followed me all the way to my apartment’s front door, about ten more minutes’ walking at my pace. Then when I pointed out the security camera, he remembered he had an urgent appointment with a toilet or a laundry or something, and fucked off.
So what do I do? Do i report that to police? What are they going to do? “So, ma’am, your complaint is that he was not touching you? How much have you had to drink tonight, ma’am?” Do I confront him? Verbally, I did, and that only because I’m confident in my military self-defence skills, but physically I didn’t. I made plans for how to do so, but I didn’t use them. Because if I start something, and end up dropping the bro quickly, who are the police going to believe? If you say, “the trans woman who won the fight”, you need to send me the RGB value of the sky in your world.
I could literally fill pages with the encounters like that I’ve had. Pages and pages. BIG pages, with 8-point font and terrible overkerning and no margins or gutters. Not all of them ended with the harasser walking away leaving me untouched.
And as shit as my experience in that regard has been, it’s nothing compared to that of a WOC. And trans WOC just mostly get killed, rather than catcalled. It’s a spectrum; many of my trans sisters of colour who die, their experience starts as harassment. The difference between “Hey, why won’t you smile at me?” and “Die, b*tch wh*re!” is one of degree. They both begin from an overweening sense of entitlement to women’s bodies and time and attention.
CaitieCat
Yes, I think most people who are not white cis males could fill entire books with the everyday ways in which we get harassed and demeaned. Even if they never lay a finger on you, I never walk away from these encounters feeling untouched. Walking to the grocery store and back should not be an exercise in self-defense.
Late the other evening I was in central London at the entrance to my daughter’s flat. I’d not got the hang of her block’s entry phone so I’d called her mobile and was waiting for her to come down to let me in.
A young man, possibly a student as it’s a university area, came along. He asked, from a distance of at least 10 feet, “Are you OK? Can I help?” to which I replied, “I’m fine, thanks. Just waiting for my friend to come down and help with this case.” And off he went.
No hassle, no harassment, no sense of threat. Now let’s look at why this is the case. First, he kept his distance. Second, he made clear why he was speaking to me and acknowledged that I was an actual person as the first thing he said. Third, when I said I didn’t need his help he said , “Goodnight” and walked away.
I wish that the armies of apologists trying to justify what’s in the video would think about encroachment on personal space, body language, the ambiguity or threat in the comments. Those and the sheer volume of it are what makes it harassment – not the fact that one man spoke to one woman in the street, something which happens quite harmlessly every day.
On the racial composition of the harassers, apparently the creators have offered an explanation:
Looks like I screwed up the link for the quote in 110.
marilove – my experiences tend to be like yours. I’m in Melbourne, and have never experienced the horrific treatment in this video or anything like it. My lifetime experience of harassment wouldn’t even hit double figures, and I’m over fifty. If I get comments on my appearance, they’ll be from women, and about my very colourful knitwear. (Though now I think of it, a guy did call out “Elvira!” once when I was in my Goth days, which just reduced me to giggles, since he mispronounced it anyway.)
I have no idea whether Melbourne is much better than other cities, or I’ve just been incredibly lucky. No idea at all. Even on trains, I’ve been harassed only once. When I get country trains, conversations are likely to happen – it’s more often older people going out for the day, and anyone sitting next to them gets drawn into general conversation, unlike the commuting I used to do when people were reading or listening to music or asleep.
That video just made my skin crawl.
Then there’s this:
http://www.dailydot.com/geek/cosplayer-harassment-nycc-yaya-han/
Anyone remotely familiar with Yaya Han has probably heard about this incident.
(Trigger warning: don’t read the comments. Loius’ law is in full effect.)
Just release the entire data set. Otherwise people are free to use occam rasor to cut the nonsense off.
Via Dave Futrelle:
good old blazing sword himself, Vox Day has weighed in on the street harassment video
Vox Day believes that women are merely sex vendors who, if they don’t keep their product adequately packaged, deserve to be drooled on by all passerby.
From Tony!’s link:
*retch*
First time machine that is built needs to get people like him back to the paleolithic.
Not far back enough.
marilove @103
Yeah I’ve seen plenty of that “You just want to prevent men and women from talking every and OMG THE SPECIES WILL DIE OUT IF I CAN’T CATCALL WOMEN!” going on in the last couple of days. Partly I’m just exhausted from having this discussion over and over. Of course, anyone who brings up that objection is going to ignore the whole “treat other people like human beings” part anyway no matter how many examples are provided, so there’s probably not really a winning strategy here either way.
If you genuinely need help or information that’s a different thing, I think, than just talking to someone randomly. I’m fine with giving directions or telling someone what time it is. Those conversations have a purpose, roles and boundaries that are clearly defined, just like saying hello/how are you to a cashier. It’s not the same thing as a random stranger interjecting into your day.
Speaking only for myself, I would prefer strangers never try to make small talk with me because it causes a lot of stress, especially when I’m walking to work or on public transit. Most of the time when someone has decided to comment on my appearance it has been to tell me something nasty about my weight, so as soon as I realize I’m being addressed, it doesn’t really matter what the person is saying. My stress reaction will kick in, causing discomfort. Like the video demonstrated, when you’re subjected to a constant barrage like that, you hit a point that it no longer matters what the person’s intent is. You just shut down because any interaction is taxing your system and you have to protect yourself.
There’s also a lot of intersectional issues surrounding talking to strangers in public – black women being subjected to comments on their hair, for example, or people with less visible disabilities being abused for using assistive devices (I know a someone who sometimes needs to use a cane to walk, and people have told her “You obviously don’t really need that, you’re just being lazy”).
In the end, I think being aware that the other person has lived a whole life and you don’t know in what context your approach might affect them is really important, and it’s best to avoid talking to strangers unless, as you described your previous interaction, they are making eye contact and seem receptive. Though as with discussions of “creepiness” I think the real key is to stop when people don’t respond. That’s what separates people into decent and asshole, at least for me.
Has anyone seen this horrible parody of this video by funnyordie?
10 Hours Of Walking In NYC As A Man
I made it 5 seconds in before turning it off. Disgusting.
Your thoughts, PZ?
@Colin Fox #121 – Yes, it was a rushed idea and executed rather ham handedly. But when contrasted with the video of Ms. Roberts? Maybe not spot on, but close enough for the satire to be effective.
@Colin I hate that parody too! It makes light of the situation, it’s not funny. It’s too early, if you like, maybe a 100 years too early.
Lindy West, one of the writers for the Daily Dot has some criticism of the video. I think she makes a valid point:
Even though the creators of the video explained why there were no harassing white men, it can still give the impression to some* (such as racists) that only black men engage in street harassment.
*To clarify, I know people of all races engage in street harassment.
Yeah, fuck Rob Bliss
Source with more link.