You’ve seen Emma Watson’s speech to the UN. Go ahead, watch it again. It’s worth it, and it’ll highlight the contrast with 4chan’s reaction to it.
Members of 4chan’s b board lost their very minds over this, and embarked on a campaign against Watson almost immediately.
So far, this has included a threat to release hacked nude pictures of her in the manner that other celebrity photos have been leaked over the past two months–complete with a sad little countdown website titled Emma You Are Next. Although this is almost definitely a hoax, it is an incredibly sick one.
It gets sicker.
In addition to this, b board members are attempting to get #RIPEmmaWatson trending on Twitter, along with incredibly disturbing fake news website pictures announcing that the actress was found dead in a hotel room.
There are also the usual misogynistic comments.
It is real and going to happen this weekend. That feminist bitch Emma is going to show the world she is as much of a whore as any woman.
How do members of 4chan manage to hold on to their own pride? Do they all feel a deep shame at their participation, and refuse to admit their association in public?
You’re expecting self-reflection from that crowd?
You should read the comments on that article, too. One idiot is arguing that all feminists are totalitarian monsters, another is whining that it doesn’t link to 4chan.
4chan is a cesspool. /b/ in particular exists to be as offensive as possible. I am not surprised in the least by this.
“Lost” is the wrong word.
There may (may) have been a question in the past when good things occasionally came out of 4chan and it was perhaps less solidified into a very particular community. But there no longer is: 4chan is fucking evil.
4chan is home to some of the very worst users the internet has to offer. If you wish to seek out objectionable content for which to blog about, 4chan is truly the lowest hanging fruit.
On the scale of sick and horrible things posted on 4chan, this would rank in at about a 1/10. Seriously.
I certainly hope that 4chan is not being cited as an example of mainstream male thought. It’s actions and opinions should be dismissed outright. It’s basically the Westboro Baptist Church of the internet.
By the way, Emma Watson’s speech was tremendous and the campaign is brilliant all around.
#HeForShe: Man #34,895.
There was one time when I was tempted to go to /b/ to look at the original comments that someone was quoting, just to see the evidence myself. The blog post linked to /b/ in its text.
Now, for some reason, I can’t remember if I actually followed the link or not – so I’m in a superposition of 0 and 1 on visits to 4chan.
But 2 is right out. I’ve never been tempted since, and I don’t anticipate being tempted ever again. They remind me of the jerkwater corrections officers who laughed at Dee Farmer in 1991.
If there’s any slim chance for comfort for Ms. Watson, it’s that 4chan likely doesn’t has any photos of her. They’d have posted the photos immediately if they’d had them. That id cesspool has zero self-restraint, and countdowns in this fashion are a running “gag”.
Not only does 4chan’s /b/ exist for the sole purpose of being the lowest cesspool of filth on the internet, it also has an average post retention time of about half an hour. By the time someone has finished writing a blog entry for a news site about some post on 4chan’s /b/ and posted it on their blog site, chances are that the specific thread they’re talking about is already gone, flushed down the Internet’s toilet by the fast-flowing stream of other refuse being posted, including probably twenty other threads with the same topic (which will also all be gone before they can be linked to).
Linking to a 4chan thread, especially a /b/ thread, would be an exercise in futility.
PZ:
Hmm, always considered myself more of a socialist type monster.
On a more serious note, this goes to show that all those who think feminists are just nasty, man hating, abrasive, uppity women who aren’t interested in equality but superiority, well, Ms. Watson carefully framed her talk to be inclusive, and pointed out the specific harms to men inherent in patriarchy. *Deep breath* Look at how her talk has been received – it’s not just this outpouring from 4chan, but even on the primary thread here, you had men who would rather joke, or talk about anything else.
What a surprise. Are they burning Harry Potter DVDs yet? I hope she has good bodyguards…
I passed around the link on my social media pages, hopefully we get the numbers we’re looking for. Speaking of Harry Potter…. apologies for stumbling off-topic. http://crooksandliars.com/2014/09/conservative-christian-rewrites-harry
I have no words for how stupid this is. Watson couldn’t have been any less confrontational if she tried. Her speech seemed to be purposefully devised to preemptively defuse all the strawmen anti-feminists like to hold to (“It’s just about hating men” and such). She explicitly addressed how sexism affects men as well as women. And still they hate it and feel threatened by it. If you wrote such people into a story, people would accuse you of being strawmanning them. Are they so preternaturally devoid of self-awareness that they don’t realize they make stock cartoon villains look like complex, nuanced characters?
@ Andres – Interesting, isn’t it. So all the folks who talk about the loud, strident, over-the-top feminist voices now have another data point in opposition. There IS no way to talk about feminism that won’t be attacked …
One would be wise not to pick fights with someone who can transform you into a small animal, wipe your memory and/or liquefy your bones.
Amazing, I really am invisible.
What did you expect? There is literally nothing wrong with Emma’s speech. It is perfect. And what do you get when no rational arguments can be made, but you hate it just because you hate it? EPIC RAGE-BONERS.
Though /b/ hardly needs an excuse. Even by its own admission, it’s the worst, most hostile place on the internet. It’s capable of generating absolute hatred, against the most inconsequential thing, for no reason, in a massive number of people.
It is the epitome of Skub.
http://pbfcomics.com/20/
@ Jeff S
4chan is indeed the biggest cesspool on the Internet, no disputing that. You still have to wonder why this most infamous of troll havens is so slanted against everyone outside the Straight White Male demographic. You’d think sociopathic trolls with no regard whatsoever for any conventional social norms wouldn’t discriminate on whom they attack and would hate on everyone equally, but instead they always seem to target the less privileged segments of our society. These people are bullies who crave power above all else, and their specific choice of victims says a lot about whom they—and society at large—perceive to be weaker.
@PZ: don’t you have a link to the sources of your first two quotes?
Anyway, yet again another group of internet bullies are making the point for feminism.
It’s not even a matter of comparing statistics about women in a specific field or crimes against them.
It’s there, huge, glaring, obvious.
Watson is paying the price, and she knew what she was going against, I never realized the courage it would take.
@13 Andres: you can’t use logic against them, same as you can’t against creationists. They probably haven’t even seen the video, they just hate because it’s feminism.
Iyéska,
I’ve been trying to think of how she could have framed it to avoid the abuse (worst case scenario) and the ignore / minimize button (best case scenario) from non-feminist men, and I’ve officially hit a wall. The one way I’ve found to look at this positively is that in her case, abuse will get publicity, so in the end, it will help the cause. Like it has with Anita.
This is just effin depressing.
jijoya @ 21:
Yeah, me too. There’s just no winning, and it is depressing, as serious change can be driven in the homosocial sphere, given that men will listen to other men more than they listen to women.
Just like the non-slaveowners who enthusiastically joined the Confederate army, these antifeminists believe that they can only appear successful if there is some group they can keep beneath them. That is why they are so venomous, because they know they will be exposed as the losers they truly are if they have to compete on a level playing field.
jijoya @ 21
Iyéska @ 22
For a brief, stupid moment as I was first reading about HeForShe, I actually had hope. I actually thought we might be looking at the start of something good. But privilege is just so damn cozy to snuggle into and internalized gender policing lets men ignore how breaking down these walls would help them as well.
TMM @ 24:
Another me too on this. I thought that until I started reading comments. Maybe it will work, maybe it will help. At this point, I don’t know, and I don’t have many spoons full of hope.
@The Mellow Monkey #24: The way this will go seems to open Pandora’s box and expose the hate.
It’s working.
Anita Sarkeesian took a lot of flak, but even the brogrammers of Slashdot started to feel uncomfortable with the death threats she received.
Things are changing.
Watson has a lot of genuine fan that will feel uncomfortable when exposed to this hate.
Yes, men are blind to their privilege, but many of them are starting to look around and think “WTF!?”.
There is a huge backlash, but that’s because the issue is being forced.
What we have to do is to show our support to these fucking courageous women that are putting themselves on the line.
Men (and the too many women who reject “radical feminism”) are not that bad.
I for one don’t want to be that bad.
Many men on this threads don’t want to be that bad.
I just think it should be said: Emma Watson’s speech was to the UN. As the camera showed – there were certain delegates who definitely didn’t clap enthusiastically. But that is because her speech and initiative was something the whole world can see. No not to pull a Nugent on this one, but 4chan is not a reputable source of news. Most of their hastag attempts have failed miserably, and at most they’ll manage to harass Watson over social media. But her speech was heard by the whole world. And even the strongly interneto-phile world doesn’t give a shit waht 4chan/b/ says. So for those who watched it, either they’re for or against, either they come up with some convoluted logic, or they have to agree that either they are Feminists, or at least HeForShe or otherwise bigots.. and I don’t care if they love 4chan.
(on an aside I’ve seen nice, progressive things from 4chan/b/ as well as regular random strongly offensive pornographic content. I was ready to give some slack: post endless paint-redos of multiple penetration anal/transplantation nonsense, draw genitals on everything imaginable: but when you start harassing and attacking good people, you’ve lost my sympathy.)
jijoya #21
I think this is the wrong question. Everything she had to say was reasonable. Despite that, there are people who are going to abuse her for saying it, or saying nearly anything that they view as threatening. So why should she frame it for that audience?
Yes, like it or not, we’ll probably only be redeemed by pop and rock and pop-rock derivatives. I’ve still got my eye on a number of people who are voices in their community and I’m still wondering if they’ll pull a Dawkins or open up to progressive voices and concerns. One in particular – TotalBiscuit, who’s had a number of semi-dismissive vlogs on sexism in videogames, although he has rejected many anti-feminist claims, but tends to mention his wife a lot as an excuse for not being sexist, and who has also strongly disavowed sexist tropes as just simply boring and lazy.
It’s the frustration of on the one hand there are many people who have knowledge of what society needs to accept to fight prejudice, and who are without necessary influence – and on the other hand those who have so many other everyday problems in their given sphere that they don’t have the information to take a strong stance on progressive issues.
The Mellow Monkey,
For years on end, while talking to men IRL and online, I keep coming across those who are either smart enough, or well read enough to be quite aware that a) there’s nothing natural about gender norms and sexism, and b) they hurt both genders. The problem being this doesn’t make them an ally, on the contrary. It makes them people who’ve weighed the pros and the cons, decided that whatever damage the status quo is doing them is worth enduring in exchange for all the benefits women’s subservient status brings them, and very rationally positioned themselves as enemies.
That type of man is impossible to reach, and will need to just be waited out. (Until he dies off, I mean, and a few consecutive generations of men take his place that have been raised differently.) The rest of them I’m not worried about. The way I see it, if a guy’s not one of those, he’s reachable, and if we persist enough which we have been, he’ll be reached.
no I think it is the start of something good another step in a very long journey to an enlightened civilization. It was the UN no a conference in Spokane Wash or Berkley Ca. for equal rights.
the vitriol of the reaction speaks volumes about the success of the speech.
It need not be seen as a culmination of anything more than the preparation for change. Now starts the hard work of actual change!
uncle frogy
In my revenge fantasy, 4chan gets infiltrated by feminists posing as Muslim misogynists (as opposed to garden variety atheist ones) in order to get the NSA to give them the attention they so clearly need.
*sigh*
It’s just a fantasy. Even I’m not that evil and I’m far too lazy. But if I was that evil and less lazy, that’s what I would do.
@unclefrogy #31
Yes, and parenting should be part of that – there is no longer the excuse that the internet has brought information and other perspectives only to the youth and intellectuals – now we’re parents, we’re part of a generation that has been informed (or been able to reach all the information we wanted) and now have to make sure the millenials aren’t as fucked up as we are.
*META: didn’t you use to have a gravatar/pic unclefrogy? Or is it just that I’ve associated your nym with so many interesting words that I’m temporarily knocked out of sync seeing your generic turquoise pic.
Might as well do the Good Reading List for those who are interested:
Misogyny: The World’s Oldest Prejudice, by Jack Holland. A good grounding in the roots of misogyny, and how it’s changed throughout history.
Manhood in America: a cultural history, by Michael Kimmel. A very good look at the concept of masculinity in the U.S., and the various twists and turns of the concept.
Guyland, by Michael Kimmel. All about guy culture, toxic masculinity, the difficulties of speaking up, and navigating the homosocial sphere.
PaulBC @ 28,
Oh, I didn’t mean she should – I was merely trying to put myself in their shoes and figure our what would have convinced them. A pointless exercise, of course, at least with some of them.
PaulBC 28:
This goes way beyond framing for a specific audience. A lot of us have been saying, at every opportunity, that it is absolutely crucial for men to speak up and speak out. (I bring this up all the time.) Don’t let sexist remarks pass in silence. Don’t let rape jokes slide. Call men out when they are demeaning and dehumanizing women and other men. Don’t let it slide, when you hear a man calling another man pussy or b!tch. And so on. Real change happens when men don’t provide tacit assent in silence. Challenge toxic masculinity.* When one man has the courage to speak up, other men will find it easier to do the same. Help other men to understand privilege. Help other men to understand rape culture. Help other men in understanding and implementing bystander intervention.
*Toxic Masculinity Part I, Toxic Masculinity, Part II
F.O. @ 26:
The best thing you can do is to be a feminist (Femanist, if you prefer.*) An active one. See #36.
*Tongue-in-cheek
@Iyéska, mal omnifarious
It actually works. Telling men who know you that their behaviour is sexist makes them behave in less sexist ways in the future. I guess for women as well, but then I continually in the #mansplaining position there, so I tend to be less pissy.
=8)-DX:
Yes, it does! It’s gratifying, too.
jijoya #35
The answer is that nothing will, at least not in the context of a single speech. I would go further and say that if Watson’s hadn’t elicited a negative reaction from the likes of 4chan, it would not have been a feminist speech at all. It stands to reason that they would have had the same reaction to the content of the speech, no matter how it was presented.
Not everything is works through consensus, and some people are beyond reach. Convincing might have worked in their formative years, but not now. Even as a thought experiment, the wall-hitting part is sort of expected. It is unreasonable to expect persuasion to work on adversaries.
@lyeska #37: I personally follow this: http://www.xojane.com/issues/feminism-men-practical-steps
Most are easy, some require more attention on my part.
Of course all threats should be taken seriously, but realistically I doubt if any of the idiots there would actually do anything. The average 4chaner is a 12-14 year old basement dweller showing off how edgy he can be to his mates.
Tommy Mato @ 42, two things:
(1) you are incorrect about the demographics of people who read 4chan
and
(2) even if you were correct, “just ignore it!” is terrible advice.
Stop.
Tommy Mato #42
We may hope so.
Please don’t do this. Not only is it very likely untrue, but it even if it were, “boys will be boys” doesn’t solve the problem; it merely excuses the behaviour.
Tommy Mato @ 42:
You’re wrong. You’re also relying on stereotypes to other those on 4chan. This is not remotely helpful in any way. All it does is allow you to rationalize it all away, rather than realize that these are regular people doing despicable things. Othering is one of the things which actively holds back cultural change. The refusal to acknowledge that people doing these kinds of things are acquaintances, colleagues, friends, neighbours, family, etc., means less pushback, less willingness to address foundational problems. These people do not exist in a vacuum, they don’t act in a vacuum, and they weren’t raised in a vacuum.
Even if this is true, a misogynistic 12-14 year old grows into a misogynistic 18 year old, who grows into a misogynistic 25 year old, who grows into a misogynistic 30 year old, who grows into a misogynistic 40-50 year old….
If bad behavior is not forcefully pointed out and corrected in youth, then what you get is adults behaving badly a few years later.
And don’t try the “it’s the parents’ sole responsibility” thing either. It takes a village to raise a child.
(Most 12 year old behave MUCH better than the average 4chaner).
The internet is seen as the universal venue for those who have nothing to offer the world, to express their resentment of those who do have something to offer. Dumb people resent smart people. Poor people resent rich people. Average people resent famous people. It’s a coping mechanism, like apes flinging their feces. How can anyone observing this deny that we are related to (other) apes?
F.O.:
A good suggestion, however, I think this doesn’t completely cover the problem. If someone under the influence of a de-inhibitor behaves inappropriately towards women, there should be an effort to figure out what biases and attitudes give rise to said behaviour. Those attitudes and biases, while repressed when sober, would most likely still be problematic, day to day.
Carol Sperling @ 47:
Wonderful, more othering. The ‘net also provides the ability to communicate globally. It allows for people to learn and continue to educate themselves. It allows for people in isolated situations to reach out and connect with others. It allows for people who aren’t seriously face to face social to have social interaction to the point they can handle. It provides a means for change. It provides news. It provides help. It provides a foundation for grass roots movements. I could go on, but hopefully, you get the point here.
You might also consider that most people aren’t terribly resentful of anyone. Personally, I can’t be arsed to even know who is famous from one moment to the next, and it’s difficult for me to imagine resenting someone famous. I would seriously dislike being famous myself, so if I think about that at all, it’s from the perspective that it must really suck to have every move you make watched.
People who are actually connected to the ‘net and use their access to complain or sniff over other people who use the ‘net, well…I’ll just say a bit more thought is necessary.
Signed up. #50,011.
It’ll be a small victory if heforshe ends up with more members than 4chan (and at the risk of exposing my ignorance, I’m assuming 4chan has members).
Part of the irony with Watson’s speech is that she is often fawned over by some denizens of 4chan. Of course, it’s more a kind of unhealthy obsession than any kind of respect. It would not surprise me if they turn on a dime now.
________________
Brandon Pilcher @18,
I know /b/ is supposed to be the “Random” board. But maybe it actually stands for “Bullies”?
@ Andrés Diplotti
“Watson couldn’t have been any less confrontational if she tried.”
It doesn’t matter to these dimwits, it didn’t matter that Rebecca Watson wasn’t being particularly confrontational either. These people are just scum who want to bully any woman who dares speak their mind in their presences.
Iyéska, mal omnifarious @ 49:
I’m sorry. Did I seem overly negative? I guess I spend too much time arguing with creationists. (it’s a hobby)
Of course the internet is a good thing, overall. I would never suggest that we should not build tools just because a few dimwits might us them as weapons. What you call “othering”, I call tribalism. Hopefully, increased communication will eventually diminish the amount of that in the world.
Yeah, #53, #49, I may be a bit confused here too. We men and boys are supposed to raise our voices against everyday sexism, to make it socially unacceptable, to challenge it when we see it, but not to do so if it risks “othering” the shitwads who are doing it???? I tell you what, I was recently “fixed up” with a beautiful woman, who spent about half the date complaining that her son had not gotten into the college of his choice, because only n****rs can get into college these days, and everything is stacked against “respectable white people”. I asked: “so are we talking about Howard, or some historically black college?” She replied: “No!! Cornell, Georgetown, even fucking BC, only fucking n****rs get in nowadays”. I replied: “except for the 90 percent of the white kids who were smarter than your son?” I walked out on the date shortly thereafter, leaving plenty of money for the dinner, tax and tip. I told the acquaintances who fixed me up with her that I couldn’t countenance such a racist. They replied: “yeah, she already told us that you behaved like a Jewboy Lawyer, and she wants nothing to do with you either, way to blow it, Ace, way to blow a perfectly good date.” I tried to “other” them too. In front of their daughter, the next time they said the N-word, I asked “I thought we weren’t supposed to swear in front of her.” I was given the bum’s rush shortly thereafter.
So, first off, “othering” doesn’t even work as a strategy with virulently bigoted douchenozzles. They are to the manner born, plain and simple. Secondly, what is the proposed alternative? Saying, gosh, let’s have ourselves a sit-down and discuss our feelings? Are we supposed to stand up to bigotry and say it’s wrong, or are we supposed to gently pamper the feelings of those who might consider themselves “othered”?
anbheal and carol sperling, you don’t understand what othering is, so perhaps this will help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other
When someone others, like stating “they are all 13 year old basement dwellers”, it’s to make themselves comfortable, that it’s not people like them doing something wrong or despicable. When someone states “it’s just resentful losers”, it’s a way of dismissing people doing something wrong or despicable. Absolutely, you can call an asshole an asshole – that’s not othering.
anbheal:
And this:
It’s not a fucking strategy.
#NotAllMen, is othering.
Othering is creating an arbitrary category to which you yourself do not belong, and then putting an individual or group of individuals into that category, and then assigning some negative value/criticism to that group as an aggregate. It has the following effects, any of which alone or in combination could be the intent of the one doing the othering.
1) It provides a justification for denying normal empathy – “they are OTHERS, they are not like me, or any of the real people I know or care about, and so it is ok for me to treat them or think of them, differently.”
2) It dehumanizes the targets, they are no longer unique individuals, but instead just one of a cadre of carbon copies all sharing the pertinent (negative) characteristics of the group. They are all “resentful losers”, or “kids in basements”, or “bitches”, or “whores”, or “fags” or what-have-you.
3) It lets you feel good about yourself. YOU are not like THEM. Those terrible things you accuse them of doing, you could never do, nor could any of the people you care about do, nor ever worry about doing, for you are you, and they are the OTHER.
I see the latest line is that this is all feminists’ fault because 4chan is now controlled by radfems/SJWs since they banned #gamergate.
You couldn’t make it up.
Iyéska, mal omnifarious, #16
I was cringing as you were being ignored. It’s not really off topic: yours is a voice I listen to carefully. Thanks for your strength, and for your sense, and for your clarity, and for your continuing to work at this, day after day. There are lots of amazing people here on Pharyngula, and you’re one who is never invisible to me.
I work with kids, in school-age childcare, and most of my co-workers are women. I don’t often experience blatant or hateful sexism and misogyny, but I do my best to challenge stereotypes and assumptions when they do come up, whether among the kids or the adults. Just doing what I do challenges stereotypes, I guess. Everyone here has helped me to be more open and, not just comfortable, but passionate about feminist issues. You’ve helped me to know what to say to my young son. Thanks.
Okay, perhaps I was incorrectly using it as a synonym for shaming, but what is the difference between an “asshole” and a “resentful loser”, at the end of the day? And of course it’s a strategy, it’s what FoxNews does night and day to LGBT teens and the Koch Bros. do to teachers and union members and Mexicans, etc. What I meant is that when well-meaning people try to “shame” bigoted assholes, it doesn’t work very often. So at a very honest level of discourse, how does one distinguish between trying to make an “asshole” feel ashamed of his anti-social behavior, show him the toxicity of what he says and does, even if he’s a “resentful loser” who shouldn’t be othered? I’m seriously not trying to pick a fight here. Where does standing up to bigotry cross the line into othering?
FTB is pretty consistent about saying that atheists shouldn’t be shy about standing their ground against Dominionists. Why should we be shy about calling bigots bigots?
The problem is that you started off calling bigots not bigots, but pubescent boys.
I.e., pretending that they were different from you (presumably you are not a pubescent boy).
I.e., othering the bigots by pretending that bigotry is confined to a subset of the population to which you and yours do not belong.
Anybody else bother going to /b/ to see what’s being said?
The latest Emma thread didn’t fit the unlinked description at top.
http://boards.4chan.org/b/thread/570150694
A few select, representative quotes from the /b/tard community:
Given that ANYONE can post anonymously at 4chan, it seems quite possible (probable?) that one or more people that aren’t regular 4chan-ers (=/b/tards) are using that site for their own nefarious purposes.
Is there misogyny, racism, etc. on 4chan? Sure. But regarding Emma Watson ( and her speech), the apparent /b/tard consensus in that thread (with beaucoup comments) is decidedly pro-Emma Watson.
Just sayin’.
First of all, there are large potential differences between those two groups. Lots of assholes are not resentful. Many are not losers, but actually powerful “winners”, who use their power in assholish ways.
Secondly, the sequence of posts that initiated the replies about othering equated this misogynistic behavior with 12-14 year old boys. And by jumping into the conversation when you did, with the words you chose, you have just implied a equivalence between assholes and resentful losers with 12-14 year old children.
Surely I do not need to point out to you explicitly the problem with that?
Again, that was not what was done in the post the started the “othering” sequence. Bigots were not called bigots. They were called “12-14 year old basement dwellers” and “those who have nothing to offer the world”. Neither of which has anything to do with bigotry, and neither of which is, in fact, likely to be true.
When the first (and second) set of stolen celebrity photos were posted, a lot more than just “one or more people that aren’t regulars” participated in the further distribution of those photos. A lot more than just “one or more people that aren’t regulars” participating in excusing and defending the actions of the criminals. A lot more than just “one or more people that aren’t regulars” were involved in reposting to Reddit.
Well now is a chance for the so-called pro-Emma Watson regulars at 4chan that you speak of to put some action behind their rhetoric. Perhaps they can start with getting that odious threat website taken down. A massive outcry from them to whoever is hosting those web resources ought to have some effect. If anything, we should hear about it if it happens. And IF it should come to pass that nude photos DO get released? Will the so-called pro-Emma Watson crowd act then by refusing to download or deseminate those photos, and making sure those photos are also taken down as soon as possible?
I can see they were selected, but what makes them representative?
@38 =8)-DX
It does. I’ve had a very recent experience with this. I shared a house with the brother of one of my friends for a couple of weeks while we both had exams in another town. He is an intelligent guy, but he is submerged in an environment of toxic masculinity. This means LOTS of comments about wanting to fuck every woman on sight, dishing any woman on tv that wasn’t up to his standards of hotness, the casual use of homophobic slang, etc, etc, the usual (you can imagine)…I know him rather well, and i’ve known him for many years, so i know that this aggressive dudebro attitude is not something that was there all along and i know that half of it is pure theatrics because that’s what his group of friends (25 year olds) behave like and it’s what he thinks it’s expected of him . However, i spent the two weeks objecting every time he made a comment that was sexist or used homophobic slurs and when he protested that i knew what he meant and that they were just words and no offense was meant, i doubled down and explained why that was bullshit and how he knew it. Granted, this made for some uncomfortable moments as he tried really hard to justify what he internally knew to be unjustifiable and since i was the asshole doing this to him (and he has a temper) he lashed out at me. However, after several of those situations we reached a point in which he was a lot more careful and he would even stop mid-sentence and rethink what he was going to say knowing that i was waiting for it and that i would not let it slide. You could really tell that he reached a point in which he knew my objections were right and that his choice was between stopping to say the things he is used to saying or coming off as a giant arsehole who is pointlessly being a complete fucking idiot on purpose. Since we know each other, we had to share a flat for twoo weeks and he doesn’t want to be that arsehole with me, he was left with no other choice than to pay attention to what he said.
I think there are a lot of men like this out there…and i think they are totally reachable. All you need to do is not let their bullshit slide, object every time, even if it is just with a cough and a raised eyebrow, you don’t always need an entire speech. Most of the crap i really think it’s theatrics, it’s a character they develop to fit in with their environment, to compete with the toxic masculinity of others and to build up their own sense of masculinity. I know this happens because i’ve done it aswell. It’s a fassade and as such it can be shown to be fake, unnecessary and unwanted. It may not work for everybody, but i think it works for a lot of people. Just show them that their shit show is not wanted, it’s not well received and it makes them look like arseholes. If they are not complete, unrepentent pieces of shit, being exposed to a different environment in which their shit is not tolerated can be eye-opening to what they have become accostumed to ignore.
Anyway, sorry for the loooong personal anecdote. I just found it fitting and for some reason i’m feeling kind of optimistic about the whole reaching people thing which is very unusual for me xD
Oh, forgot to mention that this guy is a big time gamer aswell.
@64 soogeeoh
Representative of the sentiments expressed on that thread.
I had read all of the comments on it up to the time of my comment here. It was being added to continuously, so there are many more by now. When I read it [the thread] a few trolls were popping up, and most were being slapped down. Don’t know it the “consensus of the thread” has altered on balance as of this moment. But I suspect not.
Go read the thread, judge for yourself. Don’t take some third or fourth party’s opinion as your own.
@63 Amphiox
I concede the point that the celeb nudes were/are probably rather popular on 4chan although I haven’t investigated that point.
A different subject altogether.
Again, how was the selection made? Every tenth post, or what other criteria did you use? And how were you checking for selection bias on your part? Legitimate questions.
@64 soogeeoh
[edit] That should read: Don’t take some second or third or fourth party’s opinion as your own.
i.e. don’t take my opinion as your own either.
@68 Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
See my replies to soogeeoh.
It is a bit odd that PZ didn’t provide a link to the article talking about the backlash (especially given the nature of comment #61 – whoops, may have just triggered the corporate firewall trying to follow his link).
There is something in what anbheal’s been posting, I think, that has to do with his original ‘they’re just a bunch of 12 year olds in Mom’s basement.’ I’ve never spent time on /b/, but I’m guessing it’s a mix of genuinely vile people with sincerely held bigoted beliefs, trolls and Internet tough guys who are just trying to say the most extreme things ever because they think it’s fun, and adolescents who are trying to feel power through hate speech.
Now, I was about to go in this direction: don’t be surprised to find monkey poo on the walls if you go to Youtube and 4Chan. It’s too easy to get outraged at comments designed specifically to outrage, and that can lead to overreaction and giving them a veneer of respectability, or taking their messages more seriously than they should be taken. And by focussing on the super-loud, super-vile section we’re missing out at least potentially on focussing on the quieter, more pervasive aspects of insititutionalized sexism .
But then I think of the Sarkeesian stuff or the nude celebrity photos, where the bile has overflowed its ‘designated’ container on the Internet and has real real world effects (as Amphiox mentioned).
I guess what I’m trying to figure out is how to fight what they do without legitimizing what they say at all – and I think even engaging with them lends some legitmacy to their posts. Something like ‘yes, we all know you’re assholes; that’s beside the point and you need to stop being criminals.’
In other words, dismiss your posts…
@68 Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
Sorry, should have expanded a bit.
“Representative” is my own subjective assessment of the thread.
“Selected” for pointedness or relevance or whatever appealed to brain, again, in my own subjective assessment.
Do read the thread yourself, your own assessment will mean more to you than mine.
#72 / Nerd:
Snidely did indeed say “Go read the thread, judge for yourself.” in his original post.
Wait, 4channers want credit for not being vile misogynistic shits to Watson, because they like her and wouldn’t exploit her and violate her privacy the same way they did other women?
Interesting.
What thread? It’s gone already
Even when it was still alive, some hours ago, it wasn’t the only one about Emma Watson
So do creationists about their drivel. Those words ping on my BS radar.
Nerd: Still, it seems to me to be unfair of you to go from him saying don’t take my word for it, here’s a link and draw your own conclusions, to you saying ‘In other words, dismiss your posts…’
Heck, that was the only link so far to the crap being said (which was, after all, the topic of the original post).
Carol Sperling,
#47 ‘s problem wasn’t that it was negative, it’s problem was that it was a classist mess. Could you have punched down any harder? Really? You think the problem isn’t a culture of misogyny but peons resenting their betters?
I’m thinking of an asshole sexist right now. This asshole sexist knowingly called a group of people already being harassed and threatened, liars, witch hunters and dangerous thought police who are making the world so dark and horrible that he’d rather die than live in it.
He did that on teh intrawebs.
He’s rich.
He’s famous.
He’s smart.
He’s a grown ass man.
soogeeoh
Thanks for at least trying the link. Someone here said that those threads come and go rapidly, but I had no idea just how rapidly. It was going fast and furious at the time of my first comment here (3:37 am).
I have since found an outside (non-4chan) website that will archive any existing thread if anyone ever wants to make a copy to refer to: 4archive.org.
I was unaware of this site until after the thread had disappeared. If I had known a bit more about 4chan beforehand I’d have a better [i.e. active] link, Sorry folks.
I thought people who live in American basements are 20- or 25-year-olds who can’t find a job and therefore can’t afford a place of their own, not schoolchildren?
(Basements you can live in aren’t a thing over here.)
“There shall not be a party to the right of my party”, said Franz Josef Strauß, head of a conservative party in southeastern Germany. His will was done; soon the party had acquired a truly disgusting right fringe.
I don’t understand. Did you expect a reply to your comment 10? I, for one, wasn’t here in time, but I wouldn’t have replied because there’s simply nothing to add to it and nothing to disagree with in it. ~:-|
IIRC, unclefrogy never had a gravatar. I confuse him with anuran all the time, though, so maybe you did, too…
*eyeroll* So many generalizations, so many assumptions…
That’s… disgusting and scary. In particular, “If she said my name one fucking time” sounds to me like he’s first of all in love with himself, and everyone else comes much later.
Isn’t the point of this thread that that’s not a different subject at all?
I’m not surprised to learn that 4chan is a very big tent. The problem is that it does nothing about the assholes in its midst.
PaulK @ 58:
I think you speaking up is even more important when it comes to a cultural change because you work with kids. Stuff starts getting ingrained when you’re very young. You’re doing good work, and you’re helping to bring about positive change, always remember that. And thank you so much.
Azhael @ 65, thank you for sharing that story, that’s wonderful!
Jackie @ 79:
Quoted for fucking truth.
There’s no sense to make out of it. It’s apparently just a confused mashup of multiple shitty insults: saying an adult is unemployed (thus they live in their parents’ basement), as well as a teenager (who live in their parents’ house, somewhere). They probably aren’t trying to endorse child labor or abandoning children in their early teens. Probably. But the classism is almost certainly intentional.
(Also, it’s often not twenty-somethings but thirty-somethings. People don’t tend to stretch it beyond that.)
That’s what I figured, but thanks for the confirmation and the detail.
I recently had an online experience where two men I know were having a heated argument. The subject had nothing to do with gender whatsoever, but they were flinging gendered insults at each other that made me really uncomfortable. For instance, one guy called the other “female-natured” and a “Superhead broad”. Unfortunately this particular individual has been a good friend of mine for quite some time, and before this exchange I’ve actually seen him criticize other men for how they treat women. Should I call him out on his use of sexist insults? I don’t care so much about the other correspondent since he really was the greater douchebag in the conversation, but it’s disturbing to see your buddies propagate oppressive attitudes.
There was another time I called a friend out for sexist insults too (I couldn’t tell the gender of whomever he was insulting), and his response was a dismissive “I don’t care for political correctness”.
Another complication is that even if we perceive anti-female insults as worse due to our patriarchal inheritance, there do exist gendered insults that are specific to men. “Dick” and “prick” both refer to male genitalia for instance, but even ostensibly gender-neutral trash-talk insults like “asshole” and “jerk” seem to be most commonly thrown at men. In fact when I first heard the word “bitch”, I took to be the female equivalent of all the insults that were traditionally masculine in application. Not that I’m saying men are victimized more by gendered insults than women, since they usually receive them from other men, but if you have a whole assortment of insults that are traditionally directed at men, how fair is it to single out the female-specific insults as sexist instead?
I notice that 10 of Snidely’s posts are actually a variation on “Why are we being blamed?”, 7 are signs of active support, one I can’t make heads or tails of, and one is GODDAMN CREEPY.
GamerGate all over again; the important injustice is not that someone is being hurt by assholes, but that they might be tarred by association with assholes.
But it is: If the “You’re Next Emma” website is being blamed on 4chan’s rank-and-file unfairly, then it’s still worth noting that their own prior acts (in the earlier leaked-pics debacle) fit them for the frame.
DM
Someone else (with a visibly male nym) restated Iyéska’s comment @13, which received an immediate reply @ 14.
Dalillama @ 87:
Yes. Invisible Pixelism in action.
leftwingfox, @85,
It’s also telling that their insult of choice is a homophobic slur.
“She’s not like those other b*tches. We LIKE her and would never do such a thing to HER!”
Another example of othering.
I concede the point that the celeb nudes were/are probably rather popular on 4chan although I haven’t investigated that point.
A different subject altogether.
Othering.
Missed blockquote, penultimate paragraph in #90.
@ Dalillama – Wait… My comment was at #14, and there should certainly be no meaning attached to my responding to #13 rather than #10. I guess it seemed more on point, whereas #10 ended with “you had men who would rather joke, or talk about anything else, ” which I didn’t feel compelled to address in my comment. No worries.
Did you not note above, that the reddit subthread posts don’t remain active for very long, and what what up then was not reflective of what there when PZ posted the OP? Context can be your friend.
I didn’t expect to hear anxiety in her voice. The misogynistic goons of the world seemed to have frightened her. Everything she said was completely rational and reasonable. What kind of world do we live in when saying these words might be dangerous and frightening to the speaker?
nah. look more closely: first, Iyéska makes a comment about how mild Watson’s language was and how it didn’t matter to the haters. Then Andrés Diplotti makes the same point. Then funkjunk responds to that point, but addressing only Andrés. The fact that she said it as well and said it first apparently didn’t get noticed.
Leave it to 4chan to demonstrate the absolute necessity of feminism.
@95 – Jeebus H…. this is a level of thread nuance I haven’t seen in .. forever…. and I commented above @92. Hopefully that is accepted by the thread inspectors ….
funknjunk 97:
If you stopped to think for a moment, you’d realize this is not about you, it’s about something we see here on a regular basis, where women are invisible pixels much of the time, as when there are two or more people saying the same thing, people are more prone to pay attention to what appears to be a male nym.
Also, you may note that as I had already made the same point Andres wanted to make, he might have simply riffed off my post, rather than acting like it wasn’t there at all. Understand now? No one is out to get you, or blame you. It would be nice if you understood this phenomenon, and became aware of it, so that you’re one more person who is consciously paying attention to what women have to say about things, especially in threads about sexism.
@98 – I understand the phenomenon. I am aware of it. I know it’s not about me, that’s not the point either. Maybe commenter #14 responded to an alternate verbiage created by commenter #13, something that compelled a comment, rather than the same point, made with different verbiage by commenter #10. I didn’t even consider the nyms, I read, and I responded to the verbiage that compelled me. And speaking of riffs .. I am a rather high-end musician. And when an idea is passed off on stage from me to someone else, I don’t get pissy about who began the germ of an idea, I bask in the glow of a line coming to fruition. So kudos to you and commenter #13 for compelling me to comment. I appreciate the thoughts.
“pissy”?
do yourself a favor and stop now.
funknjunk @ 99:
My nym is not @98 or @any number. Please, go back and read your post @97, because that was not someone aware of the phenomenon, and that was not someone who understood. And if you didn’t think it was about you, then two posts on your part weren’t necessary at all, let alone all the little jibes.
I don’t see you post much funknjunk, and that’s fine. That said, for those of us who do post a lot, and have been immersed in many threads dealing with gender, feminism, sexism, rape, and so on, it’s not at all enjoyable to be treated as though you were invisible. It’s annoying, and it’s also much more – it’s frustrating, and it’s painful. And it happens all. the. time. So, it’s not a matter of ‘thread inspectors’ and it’s not a matter of being pissy. It is a matter of a woman bothering to point out that she’s not invisible, and hearing things like “thread inspector” and “pissy”. There’s a clue in there, y’know.
If you want your claim of understanding and awareness to be taken seriously, this wasn’t the way to do it.
Terska @94
For actors, speaking in your own voice about your own issues is a very different thing from submerging your personality and your ideas behind what you present when acting as a character who is not you.
Was anyone else surprised to find a but-what-about-the-men reaction to the HeForShe campaign on FTB?
Turns out it wasn’t 4chan after all.
#93 / Red:
Indeed, context can be your friend. Note that PZ quoted some kind of article or blog post without attribution (“Members of 4chan’s b board lost their very minds over this, and embarked on a campaign against Watson almost immediately….”) or link.
And your feedback to him had zero to do with how ephemeral the threads are; in fact, the very first comment about the thread not being available was 20 minutes before I said you were being unfair.
Context doesn’t work in retrospect.
stevendixon @ 104
It’s very much a variant of the boy who cries wolf, though, isn’t it? Act like unrepentant assholes often enough and everyone will be easily convinced that random asshole-ish behaviour is from you.
What is the source for that?
That’s Nerd, not Red. My wife is the Redhead. You demonstrate your lack of context by missing that.
My context had everything to do with my response, including recognizing trolling/apologizing behavior with SW’s first post, confirmed by SW’s responses. SW was an obvious apologizer, not here to honestly discuss the situation, as was later shown. Why don’t you admit that some of us are better than you at spotting that behavior.
soogeeoh @ 107
The countdown site itself claims to be part of an anti-4chan campaign produced by a marketing company.
An Australian news article on the subject:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-24/emma-watson-threats-actually-stunt-to-shut-down-4chan/5766882
What is this?
Stinging nettle vs. wasp?
Thank you stevendixon, Matthew Trevor, and Lofty.
So 4chan wasn’t responsible.
For this anyways.
It is somehow reassuring to know that if you want to know a bit about what the 4chaners are actually doing one can actually go there and read a thread or two. Even if the thread has a life span shorter than a mayfly.
You know, rather than taking the word of someone else, ya know, on the internet.
except for the part that yes it was. http://www.businessinsider.com/emma-watson-naked-photo-countdown-hoax-2014-9
oh, stoopid post, eating half my comment. anyway, look at the two events described in that buisness insider article. in reality, the GTA thing was done by 4chan itself; this is simply a repeat of that event.