1. rq says

    That’s why it was hard to take seriously – I was expecting cats and nothing but, and was rudely interrupted by talking people. :( Poo. (And probably cat-poo all over that store, too!)

  2. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    For Og, with loving dissent from Tethys:

    You were coerced, and abused, and are in no way responsible for your abusers tactic of forcing you to be you complicit in the abuse in order to assure your silence.

    Tethys and I agree that you are in no way responsible for your abuser’s tactics.

    However, you and I have stared back at that blinding, painful light, haven’t we? The pain of that light is so intense, the desire to turn away so overwhelming because we know that there are things we could have done different, better.

    We are accountable for our choices in proportion to both 1) the ability of our differing choices to affect the outcome, and 2) our ability to choose differently.

    Think carefully how much of your pain you would attribute to a child previously groomed by your abuser who helped to snare you. You know this abuser was able to snare you without that child’s help. How much would that child’s participation have affected the capacity of this abuser to gain power over you? Not at all. But there might be additional pain from having another child, a friend participate. You may have felt an extra sense of betrayal. You may have been mortified that another person witnessed something that carried so much painful shame. You may have been even more outraged that **someone else knew** and still no one protected you. These are powerful things, they are things for which we can and should be held accountable. But they must be tempered by our awareness of the capacity to choose differently.

    How large were the consequences you feared from not participating? How much education did you have about sex and consent? How fucking old were you???

    You may, in your despair, minimize these consequences or maximize your ability to infer things not directly taught. You might dismissively wave away our protests at your “I should have knowns” by asserting that you were plenty old enough to tell right from wrong. But the very fact that these questions are reasonable to propose tells you something: these are pointers to bodies of evidence that show us how difficult it is for a child in these circumstances to choose differently. That’s why we have age of consent laws in the first place!

    I know you wouldn’t want the removal of age-of-consent laws. Think about why. Apply the reasoning to yourself.

    Then don’t hold yourself in no way accountable. Hold yourself accountable in the reasonable way a person should for playing a role that could only with great difficulty and greater pain have been avoided, when that role somewhat exacerbated a much larger tragedy that you could in no way have prevented.

    You and I know this isn’t about no accountability vs. all the accountability.

    But you’re forgetting what we also both know: those who abuse can and do feel shame. The worst of them go out of their way to cultivate obliviousness to the harm done to their victims. I say again: *cultivate obliviousness*. They do that to protect themselves from the pain and regret that they might otherwise feel.

    These are not monsters. These are human beings making choices. I hear the way you contest Tethys’ absolutes. I understand it.

    Now apply the logic to yourself. The person who orchestrated the tragedy is still a human being. We don’t rape them back. We don’t murder them. We stand up in our horror and say, “NO!” and insist on the best forms of justice our society can achieve.

    Now ask yourself if the way you treat yourself is consistent with how you would want a prison guard to treat your abuser.

    The logic applies. We can be broken together, Og. But we are still broken humans.

    Your overwheleming feelings of remorse are PROOF that he failed to turn you into his protege.
    Abusive people never feel guilt or responsibility for their abuse.

    I don’t want you to believe this. I really don’t. You might, believing this, think that feelings of relief or pride when your abuser praised you instead of hurting you would be proof that he did manage to turn you into his protege – either for a time or for always.

    No. A protege is a particularly valued apprentice who is expected to become an independent master. The protege goes on to do the same works without the supervision of the master.

    This man made himself a master of you in a malicious and nauseating way. And when you were independent, did you repeat in your freedom what he did in his? Did you grow up to groom children? Did you grow up to violate them?

    Hell fucking no.

    That you **make different choices** is proof that you are not his protege. There is no need for feelings of remorse to prove that, and there is certainly no need for you to be “overwhelmed” with feelings of any kind to make a true break with your abuser’s repulsive practices.

    I have great confidence that you aren’t having us on, that these experiences are genuine and reflect your genuine history. I also have great confidence that we don’t know quite a lot that you consider significant in your assessment of yourself. That’s okay. We don’t have to know everything.

    But don’t think for a second that it’s only so long as you are overwhelmed with grief, remorse, and inward rage that we hold you to be a good person. Don’t think that because this is the part you can share – indeed, this is the part you **must** share – that this is the part that is most significant in our assessments of you.

    We see how you behave here, amongst your Horde. How you act when you aren’t hyperconscious of others’ observations of you is more telling than these overwhelming feelings you have shared, conscious of others’ scrutiny.

    No matter how many callous, indifferent, even lying others insist that you are harming our Horde, no matter how uncomfortable their scrutiny,

    I will remain, holding your hand,

    looking back into the light,

    loving you.

  3. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Tethys, 492:

    Again, to stress, my #499 is loving dissent from the phrasing of a well-meant message.

  4. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    *gentle hugs*

    To add to the “people are such assholes” file… I might have been better off when mostly talking just to you folks. The more people I chat with, out of a professional setting, the more I realize this group is one big exception. So many good, empathic people in one place? You would have a hard time finding that offline.

    Less than two hours out for beer with work colleagues and I learned most of them will vote yes this weekend on the referendum asking for the definition of marriage as a union between one man and one woman being added to the constitution, one guy opined that he wouldn’t employ “girls” because they take maternity leave in a couple of months (no offense intended to women present, of course).
    I should just avoid people offline.


    And now more gentle hugs for Ogvorbis. You’re one of those good folks here.

  5. Gen, Uppity Ingrate and Ilk says

    The more people I chat with, out of a professional setting, the more I realize this group is one big exception.

    Yes. I’m still mentally fragile (hope it gets better soon FFS, it’s damn boring) and I can’t really even *read* other places right now.

  6. rq says

    I am in living the phrase ‘mixed feelings’. Because, hey, come on, skeleton is on… and so is the charity concert for the victims of last week’s tragedy. They’re both on simultaneously (thank you, computer and TV), and… yeah. Mixed feelings.

    *more hugs* for Ogvorbis

    Crip Dyke, and Ogvorbis for that matter, may I say – I am glad to know you, even though it is currently in that feeble online same-forum kind of way. It is an honour.

  7. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says


    I can’t say I’ve ever been to Latvia, but i can say that if I go, meeting up with you will be at the top of my list of things to do.

  8. rq says

    Crip Dyke
    There will always be a space for you, should you decide not to reside in the Capital.

    For any loungeling, for that matter. As long as you don’t all come at once!

  9. rq says

    I know that feeling! I get it every time I speak to a supposedly intelligent person, and they throw out some silly anti-gay or anti-women comment (such as Colleague, well-educated etc., who believes that women and men see differently – there’s some biological basis for this, which I haven’t yet seen). And I am aghast. But yes, this group is truly an exception – a very special one – and one I am glad to be a part of (even if I do sometimes get things wrong).

  10. Dhorvath, OM says

    I don’t even work with supposedly intelligent people. They revel in their lack of acumen, competence, and exposure. Still, it’s not that which rubs, rather it’s the lack of empathy. “I’ve got mine.” is one of the worst things one can hear, regardless of the voice sharing it.

  11. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Finally almost completed operation AppleTV. Dang, the electronics are getting smarter. Bad Nerd for not keeping up. Anyway, upgraded the Comcast box, got it operational, and the HDTV works with the portable DVD and the AppleTV device. Still working on the bugs, like close captioning and dimensions of the picture (which is elongated horizontally on auto). Appears each input (HDMI 1, HDMI 2, or AV) needs a selection….

  12. Portia, in absentia says


    Our dear Tony! Is stuck in the spam filters. Can someone alert z? Excuse errors, I’m posting drunkenly fron my phone where he sent ,e an email :)

    Hope neveryone is having a lovely night :)

  13. cicely says

    First off, *epic-sized load of hugs*. Next,

    I have done some serious damage to the community.

    That, you have not.
    Not, not, not, not, not.
    I started to list off other Loungers’ words in your defense, but there were too many; it was approaching a simple copy&paste of the whole back end of this Thread.
    But I think that the part you most need to remember, always, is A. Noyd’s

    You were failed by people you should have been able to trust.
    Horribly, unforgivably.

    Crap. I’m gonna have to go read the Dawkins thread, am’t I?

    Ill-formed musings….
    It seems to me that the slymers are sorta kinda doing what religionists do, in trying to claim all “virtues” as the Property of (insert name of deity), only reverse-wise, and with “redemption”; i.e., that the concept of “redemption” is purely a property of Religion, and in jettisoning Religion, they also jettison the notion that “redemption” is possible.
    More black-and-white morality, in other words.
    Feel free to rebut or rebuke me on this—as I said, ill-formed musings….

  14. chigau (違う) says

    cicely #511
    The stuff with Ogvorbis isn’t in the Dawkins thread so much as it is in the comments on another website.
    There is a link at #76 in the Dawkins thread to that location.
    Bring your cast iron stomach.

  15. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Gack, feel like giving a Hulk smash to UPS. The Redhead’s wheelchair brake parts were in Northbrook at 5 am today. but not out on a truck for delivery. It looks like like Charles T Woodpulp (a newspaper) has to remain on the job for a couple more days for her left wheel…

  16. says

    Thanks Portia, PZ, and anyone else who assisted.
    I can handle being caught in the spam trap at other FtBlogs…but not here.

    You are loved.
    We do not blame you.
    You were used…manipulated.
    You are a great human being.

    The Pitters are lying shitstains who revel in dragging people through the dirt using any dishonest means they can find.

  17. says

    Yup. Nugents blog is brimming with Pitters. I know precious little of him, but allowing the Asshole Atheist Shitstains free reign to post their lies and disinformation has me losing even the basic respect I accord people.

  18. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @rq, #506:

    From what I can get out of maps, it looks like there’s not anywhere in Latvia you could drive to in 4-5 hours from Riga, most of it less.


    @Tony, #513:

    I see what you almost did there.

    @Tony, #519:

    I think you’re forgetting this from last Lounge.

    It apparently applies self-referentially.

  19. says

    Can I just complain bitterly for a moment?

    I fucking HATE being in chronic pain. The chronic kind I can deal with, it’s the acute flareups that are nightmareish.

    Or would be nightmareish, if I could sleep. The last time I was able to close my eyes and make it stick was late Thursday afternoon. My SI joint is in what is technically called “mondo fucko mode”, meaning, “I mondo fucko you life, haHA!” No position is less painful. Not sitting, standing, face up, face down, sideways, leg up, leg off the bed, leg straight up in the air along the wall (no, seriously), nothing.

    I’ve taken more than my total usual daily dose nearly four times in the last 36 hours, and I still can’t get it to settle (we’re talking something like 160 mg of opioids in 36 hours), and it’s not even making me sleepy.

    And just to add the special archaeopteryx turd topper on the shit sundae I’m snarfing wholesale, sleep deprivation makes my pain tolerance drop precipitously. So the longer I go before sleep, the worse the pain gets subjectively, which makes it even harder to sleep, lather rinse repeat until giving up and reaching for the mallet.

    I don’t have a mallet. This is probably for the best.

    Anyway, no new info, I just really wanted to get a good moan in, because I’m so fucking tired of being so fucking sore. :(

    Tentative and careful bent and wobbly hugs from the very frustrated old busted bod in the corner.

  20. David Marjanović says

    *pouncehugs for Ogvorbis*

    CaitieCat! *very careful hugs by the truckload* I hope we can meet “tomorrow” or on Sunday.

  21. rq says

    Crip Dyke
    And you’d be right, if the roads weren’t so terrible. :)

    Glad you’re back!

    If you accept *pain-relieving virtual hugs*, I have some for you. :(

  22. says

    DM, I hope I can meet you (and the others) too. It really all comes down to “can I get some sleep Y/N?”, and then “can my body hold up for a nice day with nice people?”

    rq, thanks very much. I wish I had a functioning and free USB slot, because I could really use some pain-relieving hugs. They sound…relieving. :)

  23. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    So…. Hi!
    This place is dead on weekends. I don’t like it.

  24. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Ed’s blog just disappears my comments.
    I may have offended him sometime in the past. Dunno.

    I find that really difficult to believe, given some of the people he DOES let comment there.

  25. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    such as Colleague, well-educated etc., who believes that women and men see differently – there’s some biological basis for this, which I haven’t yet seen

    Some women see differently from men, insofar as tetrachromacy only presents in XX humans due to some color-receptor related genes being on the X chromosome (so a person would need two to have a “normal” and a “mutant” copy for four different receptor types. Generally speaking; I’m not aware of any XXY, etc. people documented with this condition). It’s pretty rare, from what I understand. Other than that…no. >.>

    Excuse errors, I’m posting drunkenly fron my phone where he sent ,e an email :)

    Portia, In Absinthia?

  26. says

    *big, big, big gentle hugs*
    I cannot even imagine what that must be like

    *if you read that*
    Could you do me a biiiiig favour?
    Could you get me one of these tablespoon/teaspoon measuring thingies in the States and send it to me when you’re back home? I’ll pay you the costs, of course, and only if you don’t have to go out of your way to get one.

  27. rq says

    It was more of a nightvision kind of thing – that most women see badly in the dark, whereas men (those Hunters!!!) can see comparatively well in the dark. Interestingly, I looked up the term he uses (vistas aklums –, ‘chicken blindness’, which in English is hemeralopia, and is actually a condition of seeing poorly in the daytime… and also due to a lack of vitamin A…). And I’m surprised that he would go around saying things like that, being specifically educated in biology. People.
    I’d heard of tetrachromacy, by the way – pretty neat!

    Portia, In Absinthia?


    Sorry I’m not going to be much help today, either – might be around more tomorrow! And yeah, I hate the quiet weekends. And the quiet Real-World daytime on weekdays, not that Alternative-Reality “daytime”, as the Murkanstanners call it. ;) Feels like I’m posting cool links to myself sometimes. :)

    Let me know if David can’t get you that, because I could help out (if you like). There’s a couple of shops here where you can find those measuring spoons, and worst comes to worst, I have family coming from non-metric countries ’round christmas time and then in January. :) Unless there’s a very specific one you’re looking for. :/

  28. says

    I cannot even imagine what that must be like

    Hey! Cool, I hadn’t thought that there was an upside to feeling this awful. I absolutely love (no, seriously, not snarking here) that this is true. I hope that none of you has any idea what it feels like, and never do. I’d rather be completely misunderstood than wish this on anyone.

    Funny the things that you can find cheerful in this state. But realizing most people won’t ever know…that’s cheering. :)

  29. Gen, Uppity Ingrate and Ilk says

    *hugs* for CaitieCat. I wish there was something more I could do. That you have to endure that is really, really awful.

    Tetrachromia and women seeing “differently” than men:

    I once read a book about a girl with both tetrachromia and synesthaesia. So, random bit of useless info there. But HAH at the wikipedia article on Hemeralopia: “However, it has been used in an opposite sense by many non-English-speaking doctors”.

    Why do people do that? Words mean things!

  30. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says


    Hey, Riga is on that list.

    Sarajevo is the closest to me. Can you believe I’ve never been there? Friend and I were planning to go this summer, but then ended up in Budapest.
    I’m not so sure about Sarajevo being one of the Europe’s safest capitals, though (as claimed in the article).

  31. says


    But HAH at the wikipedia article on Hemeralopia: “However, it has been used in an opposite sense by many non-English-speaking doctors”.

    Why do people do that? Words mean things!

    Yes, but by mutual agreement, not because English speakers dictate the meaning.
    Please this “English has the right meaning and perfect word and whoever has anything different is wrong is fuck annoying to non-native speakers.

    You have a strange humor ;)

    Yes, please.
    Because I found out that German teaspoons do differ from American ones, which can decide about success or failure if the ingredient is one of the kitchen-chemicals.

  32. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    I’m bored. I could work, but I really don’t want to right now so I’ll just write to myself for a bit.

    I’ve almost given up on hoping I’ll ever be able to be in relationship with someone. Or even start dating someone. I mean, I had one boyfriend, when I was in high school (gad, that was ten years ago). The more time passes, the more I realize that I just don’t understand people. I just don’t understand all these unwritten rules and how someone is supposed to behave.

    For example, I don’t think I know how to flirt. Or rather, I have no idea what flirting is. I have been told on occasions that when I talked with some man I was also flirting with him. Beats me, I had no idea. I was just chatting.
    Joking around with a woman, and it’s just nudge nudge wink wink joking. Doing the same with a man, and suddenly it’s flirting*. Except when it’s not. Huh?

    Following that, I’m also unable to recognize when someone is flirting with me. Even if I did notice, or it were pointed out to me, I’d either disbelieve (seriously, why would anyone like me?) or get totally confused.
    There’s the low self-confidence, but there’s also simply not understanding all the expectations surrounding this romantic relationship business. You’re supposed to show interest in someone in some non obvious way, by keeping everything low key so that neither one’s ego gets too bruised if the other side is not interested or changes their mind. But if you’re too discrete the other person might get discouraged. So, balance. A lot of dancing around the issue.

    Even if I skipped all the bullshit and, for example, just asked someone for coffee, I still have no idea how I’m supposed to behave. I’m awkward with people I don’t know well. Having the added pressure of being on a date, where I’m supposed to leave a good impression or something… Maybe that’s just too much bother.

    And that’s before we’ve even come to the actual relationship.

    You’re suddenly supposed to start neglecting friends because you have to show your love and devotion to the partner by putting that kind of relationship on a pedestal? Yeah… no. You’re supposed to start acting differently with people of your partner’s gender (heteronormativity is usually assumed here too), at least in the beginning, so that partner wouldn’t fear of losing you? Yeah…. no. I usually don’t know how to act around people I don’t know well anyway, I really don’t need added stress.

    There’s just too many things there I don’t understand. When I was a teen, I thought things were different when you grow up. Now that I’m 27, I see that everyone is older, but the whole charade still looks kinda like a grownup version of the same old A and B sitting a tree, kissing.

    I’m completely confuzzled. And a bit lonely.

    *heteronormativity warning

  33. rq says

    If you’re expected to neglect other friends to the absolute exclusivity of One Person, that’s not a good kind of relationship. Same with acting differently re: the gender thing. (I’m sure you know this.) I understand if, in the first bloom of the relationship, this happens voluntarily (excitement, butterflies, whatever…). But it shouldn’t be an obligation or (necessarily) a long-term thing.
    As for the flirting, well, that’s the whole sexism head rearing itself, no? Do things you do with [your gender here], and it’s fine and kidding around.
    Do it with [other gender even if you are not attracted], and suddenly it’s flirting! But hey, maybe I’ve been also flirting with women my whole life?? Or maaaaaaybe I happen to like chatting with men…? Ugh, it’s one of those things I don’t like about the gender dichotomy. You can’t just do things with people, you’re either doing them with [your gender here] or [other gender even if you are not attracted].

    ** Because people just don’t flirt in the same way with other people of their own gender, right? Because that’s not a real attraction. :P

    I’m sorry you feel lonely, Beatrice. :( I wish I could help out somehow, but all I can do is offer virtual *hugs*, and say (even though it’s not much comfort) that the person who will want to get to know you will not necessarily need to see your good side or only your good side. And I sincerely believe that someone will turn up and will like you and everything you are, because I sincerely cannot believe that everyone can be so blind to the amazing and smart person you really are. Prickles and all. :)
    (I’m a cactus-person, too – it’s a wonder I ever even got married.)

  34. Portia, in absentia says

    About 200 comments late, but I’m sending good thoughts to Crip Dyke. Hope the presentation went well.

    I bet I’ll find out when I get further caught up :)


    I don’t think I’m hungover. That’s unusual. I’m pretty lethargic though. Good thing it’s a holiday weekend so I only have a little work to do.

    Everything is sore from the flag football the cousins played yesterday. I don’t think I’ve ever played football that well. :D

    These are all good problems to have, I just now realize. Hope everyone’s weekend is going well.

  35. carlie says

    DavidM! Are you still passing through my way this week? We got pretty busy with a couple of surprise meetings but I can still maybe fit something in if it’s on your route.

  36. Portia, in absentia says

    Portia, In Absinthia?


    My aunt bought ginger schnapps. Mixed with club soda or apple cider, it was ….tasty. Must find.

  37. Portia, in absentia says

    Azkyroth @ 388-

    Killed an HVAC exam earlier.

    *thumbsup* My dad and brother and uncle are all HVAC contractors. Neato.

  38. Dhorvath, OM says

    Exclusivity is a poison that bleeds jealousy and rots trust. I hate it. Be yourself, enjoy the people you enjoy. Sometimes you end up close to someone, sometimes it’s just fleeting interaction. Trying to force closeness with rules is ownership.

  39. Nick Gotts says


    Just to add one more voice: please don’t let these slymepit shitstains drive you away or into despair. You’re a fine person who has been and still is dealing with horrible abuse; if the slymers weren’t victimising and lying about you, they’d be doing it to someone else. And I doubt that, even at their level of mud-slinging tactics, attacking you will work for them outside their own circle-jerk: it’s too obviously, disgustingly, bullying and harrassment.

  40. Portia, in absentia says

    Exclusivity is a poison that bleeds jealousy and rots trust. I hate it. Be yourself, enjoy the people you enjoy. Sometimes you end up close to someone, sometimes it’s just fleeting interaction. Trying to force closeness with rules is ownership.

    …I don’t think that’s a fair description to all the people that are happy with their monogamous relationships. Not that I’m one to talk….but we don’t need to denigrate one way of life to validate another. Polyamory (or whatever other word people prefer for non-monogamy) is fine for those that like it, and same with monogamy. Pardon if I’ve misread you. I’m only on my first cuppa. :)

  41. says

    So, #1’s friend is here.
    The first hour went well. We made soap*. Then something went wrong and #1 completely lost it and spent the next 20 minutes screaming and crying. I have no idea why

    I think those rules are made up as you go along and you always lose.
    Story time?
    It fits the date and the topic.
    So, tonight is Mr. and my 14th aniversary of kissing under the mistletoe. We had met the New Years Eve before. We’d been chatting and talking for a while when he tried to stick his tongue down my throat.
    I was completely take aback.
    What was he doing?
    I was having an interesting conversation with someone I might be interested in while he was apparently flirting. And he was thinking I was flirting, too.
    That quickly ended our conversation for the night and then we spent an entire year tip-toeing around each other until we finally managed to get together.
    Apart from that I can’t add much. I’m such a slut I married my first boyfriend and never slept with anybody else, so what do I know?

  42. says

    If you have been talking with relatives who watch Fox News, read Breitbart or the Washington Times, then you know that President Obama has been slapping the Catholic Pope, and all Catholics in general, in the face. Well, no he hasn’t.

    … First, no one is closing the embassy. It’s moving to a new location – closer to the Vatican – that will save American taxpayers money and improve security for U.S. diplomats and staff.

    Second, despite the Republican apoplexy, the Vatican doesn’t mind the move and hasn’t complained at all. Indeed, other countries have made similar moves in Rome without incident.

    Third, plans for the move began under the Bush/Cheney administration, making the incessant Republican whining that much stranger….

  43. says

    Chalk up one more win for FFRF. The organization often takes issues to court when no one else will bother. Their latest victory points out the inequity built into letting religious clergy shield their income from tax, while other non-profit employees are not allowed to shield income from tax.

    A federal judge has ruled that an Internal Revenue Service exemption that allows clergy to shield a portion of their salary from federal income taxes is unconstitutional.

    The clergy housing exemption applies to an estimated 44,000 ministers, priests, rabbis, imams and others. If the ruling stands, some clergy members could experience an estimated 5 to 10 percent cut in take-home pay.

    The suit was filed by the Wisconsin-based Freedom from Religion Foundation on grounds that the housing allowance violates the separation of church and state and the constitutional guarantee of equal protection. The group’s founders have said that if tax-exempt religious groups are allowed a housing subsidy, other tax-exempt groups, such as FFRF, should get one, too. …

  44. says

    It was more of a nightvision kind of thing – that most women see badly in the dark, whereas men (those Hunters!!!) can see comparatively well in the dark.

    Purely anecdotal, but I have better night vision than any man I know.

  45. says

    More religiously-based disrespect for single mothers:

    In a Christian Post column his week, Southern Baptist leader Richard Land argues that single women are unqualified to raise their children and should always give their kids up for adoption as “the best option for everyone concerned.”

    “Keeping the baby is almost never preferable to allowing a baby to be adopted into a solid, faithful Christian home,” Land writes. Although Land notes that there are “more than 100,000 children in foster care in America alone,” he cites the Judgment of Solomon to suggest that single mothers are being selfish by not putting their kids up for adoption. …

    This comes from a Baptist source, but I’ve seen similar arguments from mormon sources.

  46. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    I used to need no spectacles at all.

    Then I changed my name and paperwork and suddenly, I realized how badly my clothes had always clashed with my instantly richer perception of color, but I could no longer get dressed in the dark!

    Also, it’s weird how I can remember exactly which color is on which sign on my route to school, but I can’t use them to find my way anywhere!

    Fucking Genders: How do they work?

  47. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Okay, I’m all into brain research like this, but do they always have to use the same playless play on words? In this case, it’s at the beginning of sentence 3:

    Crows are no bird-brains.

    The only saving grace is that if I have to read such an over-used, at least I can inflict it on olive ewe.

  48. A. Noyd says

    Lynna (#552)

    “Keeping the baby is almost never preferable to allowing a baby to be adopted into a solid, faithful Christian home,” Land writes.

    Notice the omission of “loving” in that description.

  49. brianpansky says


    Thanks for sharing.

    Even if I skipped all the bullshit and, for example, just asked someone for coffee, I still have no idea how I’m supposed to behave. I’m awkward with people I don’t know well. Having the added pressure of being on a date, where I’m supposed to leave a good impression or something… Maybe that’s just too much bother.

    I haven’t had a relationship, and I can relate to some things you say. (at least I *think* you are talking about the same relationship expectation confusion and so much other stuff I’m familiar with). I kind of feel a rant coming on.

    [though I’m not sure if my words will be helpful to you or anyone, but it is my experience of “having no idea” how to do relationship stuff etc.]

    I wasn’t very well socialized as a child, and my family was isolationist fundamentalist christian, and anything slightly sex related, even relationships, was mostly something everyone seemed to pretend didn’t exist. Because it’s too awkward or terrifying to educate children about, or something. I was even told that you should only kiss a girl if you are going to marry her.

    Anywaaaays, I developed a lot of learned helplessness about relationships, even friendships. I didn’t have much friendship, especially from the ages of 17-22 (I’m 23). Even right now, my social life is sparse.

    However, with counseling and other intellectual reflection, I have fairly recently (even some of it just this past summer) gained a much better understanding of friendship. Previously I thought I could be friends with anyone who was a nice person…but all the wonderful people I knew didn’t really have the same interests as me. Learning to focus on what I want (such as shared interests) has helped me, and things are much less mysterious/frustrating.

    Now about this “dating” thing. I think I’ve seen enough to get the idea that the cultural expectations (or perhaps just my own confused guesswork) about dating are cumbersome, and obfuscatory and stuff. But I understand friendship, it is a model in my head I can work with. So that’s all I’m going to do. (this is rather similar to the idea of relationship anarchy)

    I’ll build working friendship relationships with people, and we can negotiate whatever we want.

    Personally, this model of thinking helps me a lot. None of it has to be mysterious, it can all be negotiated to a mutual agreement. Sometimes I used to get tangled in thinking that was a bit similar to “nice guy” syndrome, but this technique just cuts through all of that for me. I also think rejection is less scary to risk, and less painful to experience.

  50. Jackie: ruining feminism one fabulous accessory at a time says

    Dear Oggie,
    I’m glad to know you. You’re a finer person than the liars and haters could ever hope to be. You continue to have my respect and affection. Take good care of you. I’m sorry you’ve been targeted by cowardly, lying assholes. You deserve so much better, as do all of the people they harass and lie about. *HUGS*

  51. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Aaahhhhh. Been up and moving since 6 am. But, finished getting the place cleaned up, got the turkey in. Without stuffing, it cooked in 2 hours and 40 minutes. It is now 1:30, and our guests likely won’t arrive for another three to four hours. Plenty of time to make mashed potatoes, gravy, stove-top stuffing, and thaw the green bean casserole. So I’m taking a break and enjoying a tankard of grog.

  52. says

    A.Noyd @562

    Notice the omission of “loving” in that description.

    Yep. And that’s exactly what mormon-run adoption agencies do. They encourage single women to give up their babies to MORMON two-parent families, the mormon part being so all-important that it is assumed that’s all it takes to guarantee “loving” and righteous and way more perfect in every way.

    Vetting takes a backseat to temple-worthy sheepness.

    Unfortunately, adoption horror stories abound, and a lot of them are related to mistakes/stupidity of religious adoptive parents.

  53. says

    Adoption fever in the evangelical community:

    This thorough exposé points out, among other things, that fundamentalist religious parents will often go the “give me as many orphans as you can” route. The result is too many kids in one household, not enough attention/care for traumatized children, horrible discipline procedures, etc.

    …The magazine’s Liberia campaign, it turned out, heralded an “orphan theology” movement that has taken hold among mainstream evangelical churches, whose flocks are urged to adopt as an extension of pro-life beliefs, a way to address global poverty, and a means of spreading the Gospel in their homes. The movement’s leaders, as I discovered while researching my upcoming book on the topic, portray adoption as physical and spiritual salvation for orphans and a way for Christians to emulate God, who, after all, “adopted” humankind. Churches reported that the spirit was proving contagious; families encouraged one another to adopt, and some congregations were taking in as many as 100 children. Dozens of conferences, ministries, and religious coalitions sprang up to further the cause, and large evangelical adoption agencies such as Bethany Christian Services reported a sharp increase in placements at a time when international adoptions were in decline. …

  54. Portia, in absentia says

    I’ve just realized that so far, the female protagonist in the novel my friend chose for book club is a Manic Pixie Dream Girl. Blah. I tried to read a few reviews to see if anyone else thought the characters were as cliched as I do, but apparently not. Annoying.

  55. says

    Further to your 568, Lynna, not only are they adopting “orphaned” children in the hundreds, they’re not doing what you might call much in the way of due diligence to ensure that the children are actually orphans, and not just kids who got separated from their parents in civil upheavals of various sorts.

    (trigger warning: suicide, child abuse, child death – non-graphic)

    About twenty years ago, just after I transitioned, a young friend of mine took her own life (she was 23, and had a 3-year-old daughter), after having killed her daughter. She was a lesbian, and had many personal issues which led her to feel she would be better off not alive. Her family were evangelical Christians, and had thrown her out when she was 17 and declared her sexuality. They had also been abusers, physical, emotional, and sexual, of her and her siblings. It was just around the beginning of December, so it’s always on my mind this time of year.

    So when she took her own life, she also killed her daughter. Because she knew that her family would get hold of the child, and raise her in just that kind of “loving Christian home” recommended above, the one in which she’d been so badly treated. And the hellish part of it is, most of us, her friends, sort of quietly recognized that we’d have been hard-pressed to choose differently, assuming we’d reached the place of wanting to take our own life: how could you send a child into a home like that, knowing she will be abused in every way, and always made to feel it was her own fault for the sin of being born to her mother? Y’know? The family were local politicians, on top of it all, so she knew her chances of getting a judge to believe that these fine upstanding Christians could be anything but the perfect place for a child orphaned by her selfish and perverted mother were of two sorts: the slim sort of chance, and the fat sort of chance.

    (end triggery part)

    So yeah. Deck the halls, fa-la-la. :/

    Then there’s World AIDS Day this week, and then the 24th anniversary of the Montreal murders of 14 engineering students (all women). Not a great week to be alone and heavily depressed.

    Also, I know I’m complaining about it twice in a day, but WHOLLY PHOQUE my back hurts. My ex came over to borrow a med (she has migraines), and just walking to the door to unlock it, even using my cane, had me near vomiting from the pain nausea. It’s one of the things they were looking at with the MRI I had Friday week, and I’ve got an X-ray req to do of my SI/pelvis/lumbar verts. I’ll have to figure out how to drag my arse to the nearest lab. I believe the bus outside my apartment goes near to it, which is good, because the prospect of walking there – it’s about 2km (maybe a mile and a quarter old school) from here – is beyond impossible atm. :(

    Still haven’t slept. It’s got to be nearly two days by now since I last slept. Guh. Painsomnia is the worst, except for insomnalgia, which is worster. Painsomnia is the “I can’t get to sleep because it hurts too much” thing; the related but opposite insomnalgia is the “I can’t get the pain to stop because I am in such awful sleep-dep!”; both are neologisms of my own devising. It’s a sort of Moebius loop of awfulness, occasionally punctuated by the technicolour yawn when the pain spikes unexpectedly.

    Thanks for letting me moan about it. You Loungies is alright.

  56. Portia, in absentia says


    I’m really sorry the pain is so awful. *gentlehugs* Can I do anything from here? Find cute kitties?

  57. says

    LOL…thanks, Portia, no, I’ll cope. It’s what I do. :)

    My usual strategy is to play a game that’s very involving and complex, like Civilization or (much more often) Football Manager. When I started playing last night to try and take my mind off the ouch, it was about July 2012, and my FC Seoul were 3 points clear at the top of the K-League. It is now mid-March, the beginning of the next season, and I have gone through the entire off-season, a number of games as manager of South Korea (the international side, my part-time job in the game), and seven matches into the new season.

    And it’s working reasonably well when there are things happening in-game. During the games themselves, for instance, I’m pretty focused. But the off-season was a slog, since I didn’t need much in the way of players, so my shopping was done quickly.

    Anyway, back to beautiful springtime Seoul. Actually, I think my next match is an Asian Champions League against a Thai team from somewhere in the south. Should be very interesting for the two Montenegrin Monsters – I have two very, very tall players from Montenegro, like 198 and 202 cm tall (6’5″-6’7″ or so) – to play against the Thai team, whose tallest player is 175 cm (about 5’10”) or so.

  58. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    *the gentlest of hugs*

    It’s interesting to read people’s thoughts on my comment. Hugs were also greatly appreciated.

  59. says

    Caitie Cat @570

    … they’re not doing what you might call much in the way of due diligence to ensure that the children are actually orphans, and not just kids who got separated from their parents in civil upheavals of various sorts. …

    Quite true. Lots of people are making money off children as if children were a product.

    Interesting story about your lesbian friend who escaped an awful fundie household only to find she could not cope. Tragic, and more tragic because it didn’t have to be that way.

    I’m sorry to hear that you are in so much pain. When in the can’t-sleep-due-to-pain mode I usually watch Tom Stoppard’s “Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead” — your mileage may vary.

  60. A. Noyd says

    @Lynna (#567)
    The chances of an offspring of mine ending up in an environment like that is all the more reason that I would never go through with a pregnancy. Even getting a relatively decent Mormon family would probably drive the poor thing to destructive ends. Why risk putting a child through that if I know will have some of the same problems as myself? In my view, the forced birther’s “potential person” argument is one in favor of abortion.


    Portia (#569)

    I tried to read a few reviews to see if anyone else thought the characters were as cliched as I do, but apparently not. Annoying.

    Reminds me of the time I tried to find other people willing to admit that the actors in Burn Notice are completely fucking terrible at what they do.

  61. says

    For me, it’s “whatever I’ve got that’s not in English” time, re: DVDs. With the goal being as much mental involvement as possible, trying to watch a show in not-English (especially when I don’t speak the not-English in any official amount, like Spanish) is a pretty good way of achieving it. One of the reasons I like anime so much. Between reading subtitles and trying to follow the spoken language at the same time, it’s definitely involving.

    Speaking of which, I think it’s time for a little Ghost Hunt. NARUUUUUUUU!!!

  62. Portia, in absentia says

    A. Noyd,

    Ha, they really are terrible at it.

    Well, this holiday visit has gotten to the point where my mom is miserable due to dejection by other family members and she is taking it out on me. Hooray!

  63. says

    More fallout from the Steubenville rape case, and from the exposure of the culprits and of the coverup.

    … Deric Lostutter, a skinny, scruffy 26-year-old programmer in Lexington, Kentucky, whipped out his cell phone and texted me a message. “We were called liars and more,” he wrote, but “we were right about it.” He had reason to feel vindicated. As one of the most notorious members of the hacker collective, Anonymous, Lostutter battled to bring justice to Steubenville, exposing secrets of a town that’s still reeling from the fallout today. He just never expected that he’d get raided by the FBI, and face more prison time than the rapists in the end.

  64. Nick Gotts says


    Sorry to hear about your chronic pain.

    I’ve just been watching Borgen, a Danish political drama that’s a small-scale cult here in UKnia (think The West Wing with a lot less syrup). I try to listen to the Danish along with reading the subtitles, but I can’t say I’ve picked up much yet. My wife speaks reasonable (if rather antiquated) Danish because of family connections, but even she finds the modern, rapid, idiomatic Danish hard to follow. Just occasionally, it sounds almost English, as a lot of frequently-used words have the same root – but the Danes also mix in the odd word of actual English (“Joke!” was one from today’s episode).

  65. says

    Thanks, Nick – I’ll have a look for that, I enjoyed the Danish The Killing, a fairly bleak police procedural with a really well-written woman lead detective. They re-did it in English, which wasn’t bad, but the original was (as is usually the case) the better.

    And yeah, Danish can sound like someone with a Danish accent speaking English sometimes, like it’s almost something you can follow, but then you can’t.

    If you want one that’s really like English, try finding some stuff in Frisian. There are simple sentences in Frisian that are word-for-word the same as English (things like “I have two loaves of bread” kind of stuff|). It’s spoken (in case you didn’t know about this already) in northern Netherlands/northwestern Germany.

  66. opposablethumbs says

    Horribly threadrupt. Too many things happening just at the moment.

    Just wanted to send the very gentlest feather-light hugs to Caitie Cat. That sounds so far beyond bloody awful I can’t even. I guess you’ve investigated all possible meds, too :-(((( I wish I could take even some of it away. Hope the game works as a distraction, and really really hope you get some respite soon.

    And to Ogvorbis, listen to what people here in the Lounge are telling you. We’ve come to know you, if only remotely, easily well enough by reading you over years to have some idea of what kind of person you really are – and that is a good person; somebody who rejected everything an abuser tried to make you into and became instead a person of integrity and empathy. Please, please ignore what the slymers are trying to do; please don’t read them and please don’t pay them any attention. We all know they don’t care whom they hurt and that they have absolutely no compunction about harming a survivor of child abuse. We honestly do have some notion of who you are – and who you are is good people, Oggie! {{{hugs}} sent your way.

  67. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says


    Ah. So that’s what’s been bothering me about Jennifer on Haven. She fits the description of Manic Pixie Dream Girl perfectly.

  68. Nick Gotts says

    WTF is this “Black Friday” nonsense? This is the first time I’ve heard of it, but it seems to be all over the BBC, as if it’s something we should all know about. In the UK, it seems to be a corporate attempt to import an American occasion for reckless spending (which makes no sense here as we don’t celebrate Thanksgiving), but has it actually been around long in the USA?

  69. Nick Gotts says


    I have actually co-authored a book chapter with a Dutchman whose first language is Frisian! But I’ve frequently used the ferry from Newcastle to Ijmuiden, and on the bus going from Newcastle town centre to the harbour, I often can’t tell whether conversations, half-obscured by the vehicle noise, are in English or Dutch, because the sounds of Dutch and the “Geordie” dialect are so similar – there’s been a lot of movement across that sea over the last millennium.

    My wife and son watched The Killing but I missed out on that one. There was another police procedural, The Bridge, which had both Danish and Swedish dialogue (the eponymous bridge being that between Copenhagen and Malmo), which she and I watched.

  70. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    loud people being loud, after 10pm.

    Not liking it.

  71. consciousness razor says

    WTF is this “Black Friday” nonsense? This is the first time I’ve heard of it, but it seems to be all over the BBC, as if it’s something we should all know about. In the UK, it seems to be a corporate attempt to import an American occasion for reckless spending (which makes no sense here as we don’t celebrate Thanksgiving), but has it actually been around long in the USA?

    It’s hard to remember, and it gets bigger and more ridiculous every year. This bit from wikipedia seems about right to me:

    Use of the term started before 1961 and began to see broader use outside Philadelphia around 1975.

    Do whatever you can to keep it from spreading into your country: wear protective headgear, paint your doors with lamb’s blood, cremate the bodies, that sort of thing.

  72. A. Noyd says

    This stupid term paper I’m working on only has to be six pages double spaced, but is insisting on growing to maybe twice that. I really don’t want to spend extra time writing it, but I can’t make myself cut it down because then it would feel incomplete.


    @Tony (#586)
    I wonder what they (Mormons, that is) would feel about a Jewish household, though. They seem to have some weird ideas about their relationship to Jews given all that lost tribe bullshit.

  73. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says


    I have managed to bludgeon that chord into submission! I still have to slow the song down a bit to hit it in stride, but I think the song actually goes slower than I play it anyway (when you have 19 other instruments to keep things interesting, you can play things more slowly and still hold the attention of your audience my own flighty lady-brains.

    Now, I can stop worrying about playing musically interesting pop-folk songs that are distracting me from getting school work done and just focus on this for a few hours.

    Really. I should be done with that one in, oh, 28 months, tops.

  74. Dhorvath, OM says

    I don’t hate stable monogamous relationships. If that’s the way my words read, I need to exercise them differently. I am angry that people think they ought to be in some archetypal relationship, that exclusive is held up as a necessary description of being ‘together’, that people use exclusive as a preliminary goal when thinking about new close relationships, and at the ways in which people following these notions undermine building the very relationships they are seeking to grow. I can see that I ought to have made clear that proscriptive exclusivity is what makes me angry, and that I should be careful to make that clear in the future when I get hot about the topic. My apologies for not doing so, I will do better in the future.

  75. says

    Okay, wish me luck. I’m still more or less non-walking, but I think I’ve rigged up a place I can get comfortable enough to sleep on (I basically constructed a papa-san chair on my bed, out of pillows and blankets), in a semi-upright semi-curled half-on-my-side position.

    Sadly, I’ve had to beg off attending the Lounging planned for tomorrow in Trawna, despite the great kindnesses offered by a Lounger who didn’t say anything about it being okay for me to mention who zie was, but there’s apparently some possibility that a couple of folks may stop by KW on their way back US-ward. That’d be nice. :)

    Gonna take some sleepy pills (I have very few of these), and together with some more extra opioids, I’m hopeful that I can actually get to sleep for the first time in 40+ hours.

    Am I the only one who sometimes faces sleep as a grim task that must somehow be gotten through, rather than a blissful recharging of batteries?

    Nightnight, Loungers. Youse is awlright. Thanks for the kind wishes today, really helped to feel listened to and not judged and stuff.

  76. FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist) says

    Nope CatieCat, you are not alone. I have never awoken in my adult life and said “Ah, that was enough sleep. Boy do I feel refreshed!”

  77. Hekuni Cat, MQG says

    Ogvorbis – *lots of hugs and chocolate* Don’t listen to the lying slymers. You are a very good person, and we love and support you.

    CaitieCat – *very gentle hugs* I’m sorry you’re in so much pain.

    Beatrice – *hugs*

    A. Noyd – Good luck with your paper.

    FossilFishy – *pouncehug*

  78. Portia, in absentia says

    Dhorvath, OM:

    I didn’t figure you meant what I misread you to mean. Thanks for clarifying. I’ll work on my reading comprehension :)

  79. Portia, in absentia says

    Cait –

    I hope you can get some rest that is somewhat restorative. I’m glad we could help a little.


    I’m having a hard time with my mom, who I think is having a hard time herself right now. Ever since her dad died she’s been a little off kilter. I don’t know what to do. The grieving is weird because he drove her crazy in a way only parents can do. I don’t know if that’s what it is. I don’t know what to do. I feel like the scared confused kid I was when she had meltdowns then. Ack.

  80. says

    Beatrice @545:
    I feel you.
    ::Sympathetic Fistbump::

    Part of my holiday blues is the being single part. Especially on my birthday. I would like to have someone special to be with. Hell, I would like birthday sex for the first time. But as you alluded to in your comment #506, the kind of person that I think I will mesh best with will be someone with shared values; i.e. someone who would fit in here. Where or *if* I find that person is anyone’s guess.


    Portia and Dhorvath*:
    Reading the short exchange between you two highlights one of the [many] attributes I love about people here: the willingness to admit that personal error could be the reason for misunderstanding.

    Is the ‘D’ in your nym silent? I often find myself mentally speaking what I read, and wondered if I was correct.


    Chigau, if you are reading, your ‘nym is one I have no clue how to pronounce and that I just *know* I am not “saying” correctly.

  81. chigau (違う) says

    I thought it would be easy.

    It is, (more or less)
    chee ga oo
    but run it all together

  82. A. Noyd says

    Tony (#599)

    Chigau, if you are reading, your ‘nym is one I have no clue how to pronounce and that I just *know* I am not “saying” correctly.

    Japanese actually has really basic pronunciation. Here’s a guide, if you’re interested. Also, the key thing to saying “chigau” right is to treat it as having three syllables.

  83. says

    Portia @598:
    Sorry to hear about the family difficulty you are having. I wish I had some useful advice, but I am sure anything I could think of you have considered already.


    I hope you get some well deserved sleep. And relief from the pain.


    Brief Tony Tale:
    I have come to like ‘shitstain’ as an insult (though I try to use it sparingly; hmmm, need some alternatives). [Warning: personal opinion ahead] Unlike an asshole, which is not-IMO-inherently gross (and often the source of pleasure), le poop is pretty near to inherently gross. [End personal opinion]. I have used it once or twice at work. One of my servers, A, likes it too. When she mentioned that to me, I explained that I have quit using gendered insults. Roughly about this time, one of the line cooks (a young 20 year old guy) started listening. I explained why I oppose gendered slurs and why ‘shitstain’ is ok. I hope something I said sticks with them

  84. says

    Beatrice @545-

    I know the feeling. I’ve got no idea how to attract people or recognize the attraction when I get it.

    The worst part is that according to friends, I’m not bad at all at attracting women. They’ll see me chatting with a woman who is apparently giving every sign of romantic and sexual attraction there is and I’m just seeing someone who doesn’t hate talking to me.

    The few times I think I notice a signal, I’m too terrified of stepping over some lines that I don’t risk it. I do this even with potential friends, not just potential romances. I take this to the point that sometimes I won’t even talk to someone who seems interesting. I suppose it’s good that I’m worried about accidentally hurting someone even when my intentions are ok, but this shouldn’t have to socially paralyze me. Will I need to risk needing to make lots of apologies to work out how to do this or can I simply learn how?

    I’m still trying to figure out how the hell I was social at Skepticon. That just doesn’t happen when I’m sober. Well, Hullabaloo I suppose, those parties were just that good I don’t think I could have handled them high.

  85. says


    Is it correct to pronounce the ‘g-a’ in your nym as ‘Gaga’?


    A Noyd:
    Thanks for the link. Very interesting. One of the things I dislike about English is the different sounds vowels make depending on the word.

  86. says

    “You have offended my deeply held religious belief”
    Agents of SHIELD disrespects Hindusm

    Rajan Zed, president of the Universal Society of Hinduism, thinks those lines are “inappropriate,” as they “unnecessarily drag a highly revered Hindu deity in a television episode and then create misinformation about the oldest and third largest religion among a large audience.”

    The oldest religion.
    The third largest.

    Why do either of those matter? Would Hinduism not be highly revered if it were a modern religion with Scientology numbers?

    Silly me, I forgot that the truth of a claim is determined by its age.
    And size matters.

  87. cicely says

    Maybe I should search&replace “forgiveness” and/or “repentence” for “redemption”? Or maybe they are bundled?

    *very, very gentle hugs* for CaitieCat, with sympathy and well-wishes for deep, painless sleep, and lots of it.
    I am distressed that I have nothing else I can offer you.

    Portia, In Absinthia?


    *hugs* for Beatrice. No useful advice, here; I’ve never understood flirting, either. I somehow blundered into the relationship that resulted in The Husband and I pairing off, but I’m not sure I could replicate the process if required.

    This stupid term paper I’m working on only has to be six pages double spaced, but is insisting on growing to maybe twice that. I really don’t want to spend extra time writing it, but I can’t make myself cut it down because then it would feel incomplete.

    Ah, yes! I remember having just this same problem!
    The teacher cut me an entire letter grade, saying that I “should have cut it to fit”.
    I was displeased.

    *hugs* for Portia; I’m sorry that your mom is having these problems.

    ‘Night, all.

  88. A. Noyd says

    cicley (#607)

    The teacher cut me an entire letter grade, saying that I “should have cut it to fit”.
    I was displeased.

    Ew, sorry that happened. I sure hope my professor isn’t that much of hard-ass. It’s a 10 page max and I’m already at 7.5 with 3/8 sections left to write. I’m actually contemplating making the spacing and margins a wee bit narrower. Which kind of screws with my sense of how the universe is supposed to work because that’s the sort of cheating one does to get out of writing the minimum. At least I’ve already made a good impression on the professor with another project, so maybe she’ll be forgiving.

  89. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says


    They’ll see me chatting with a woman who is apparently giving every sign of romantic and sexual attraction there is and I’m just seeing someone who doesn’t hate talking to me.


    I can’t wait for when someone invents a self-confidence bandage.

    The few times I think I notice a signal, I’m too terrified of stepping over some lines that I don’t risk it. I do this even with potential friends, not just potential romances.

    In this part, hurting someone isn’t so much my fear as proving myself inadequate with time. Yeah, they like me now, but just wait until they get to know me. I’ll just screw something up and they’ll go away, probably with both of our feelings hurt.
    And then there’s also my lack of trust. If someone is trying to get close to me (friendly way included), somewhere in the back of my mind is a fear they are doing it with some bad intentions (since no one in their right mind would like me for realz) – they just need me for something, or they’ll going to mock me.

    So, better turn them away immediately. Start being border-rude/unfailingly (coldly) polite to them, or determinedly ignore them until they go away.

    Maybe you were able to be social because it was a setting you are completely unused to, and all your barriers failed to go up because there was too much going on at the same time.

    It’s like… I’m able to appear very friendly and chatty with unknown people in a professional setting. I even joke. As long as it’s business and no personal remarks. I hold classes for clients, and I’m so social I can’t believe it.
    After the class, if one of them tries to engage in social chitat, unrelated to what the classes were about – I close up like a clam. I’m suddenly completely out of my depth.


    You are in some ways much more experienced than me (and totally different, regarding our social abilites), but I recognize the same loneliness in your writing.


    Referendum today. I’m going with mum and I’m really proud of her. Not only did she decide to go without my prompting, but she was asking me whether I’ll go and vote against.

    Unfortunately, we’re going to lose. The haters are too strong and too many. I’m sorry about all the hate directed at gay people, but what’s making me every more scared is what this day is opening the door to.

    “they” are currently collecting signatures for another referendum. This time one prompted by the hate against Serbs.
    Who’s next?
    I’ve heard that the organization behind the today’s referendum (which is also backed by the church) might go against abortion next. They started with a “sure thing”, since gays are tolerated here but everyone is going to stomp on them if they see it as “socially acceptable”.

    All the hate and frustration this nation feels has been taken and directed towards minorities, gay people and Serbs. It’s frightening.

  90. rq says

    Went to see these guys in concert last night (and to have a bit of a night on the town with Husband), and it was amazing. We walked into the room full of 14 to 16 year olds and felt old, but then all the over-30s hipsters showed up and it wasn’t that bad – except hipsters don’t dance, and it was defnitely a kind of move-to-it music, so I did my best within the limited space. And then they covered this song, with the original artist as guest, which is one of my favourite Latvian pop songs everrrrrr (along with this one).
    The warm-up act was a riot, mostly because their ‘background dancer’ was a poor young woman holding a disco ball over her head… for the entire hour (she put her arms down between songs, but still…). It was a bit… odd.
    We had a delicious dinner out, without rushing for once. At one of those status restaurants where you go and order the cheapest thing on the menu but can forever after say that yeah, you had dinner there (hey, it was pretty good, too!). We haven’t had a date in a looooooooong time, so it was all very, very nice.

  91. says


    They’ll see me chatting with a woman who is apparently giving every sign of romantic and sexual attraction there is and I’m just seeing someone who doesn’t hate talking to me.

    I know it’s been a long time since I did that stuff, and I’m clearly no expert at this, but I always thought that finding someone you don’t hate talking to was a first necessary step.
    OTOH, as my own story shows, I got that wrong, too.

    *gentle hugs*

    I hate it when I make cookies and notice halfway through the recipe that following those instructions will never result in the cookies in the picture.
    Still, 4 kinds of cookies done.

  92. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says


    When you see those cookies in the picture, they weren’t the first batch. It took a lot of time to make them look perfect, time you don’t have to waste.

  93. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    what were you making?

    I’m going for fiddly things meant for impressing guests* lately. :)

    *no one to impress, but I enjoy the work

  94. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    All three of us just went out to vote. My father, who hasn’t voted for anything or anyone since the 90s just cast a vote for what is, essentially, gay rights.

    He’s not exactly a gay rights supporter, but he does despise Catholic church, nationalists and especially Catholic nationalists mocking the secular state.

  95. rq says

    Congratulations to your parents!
    I can’t imagine my parents ever voting the right way on a similar referendum (Dad being a staunch Catholic and all…).
    I hope that, contrary to your expectations, the referendum passes on the right side of history – that is, in favour of gay rights. *holding thumbs*

  96. says

    Thx for the good wishes, all, and forgive me if i don’t type out and find all the names, because sort-of inevitably, my wrists are in a nightmare state (when I can’t use my legs to support me, I must perforce use my arms, or be immobilized). Wrists are not a great substitute for ankles in this particular situation.

    Did get about seven hours of sleep, in two stretches, but only after I fetched a long-life icepack* and placed it on my right SI joint where the pain was. I fell asleep on top of it, so it’s a good thing i wrapped it well, or i’d have added a touch of frostbite to my day.

    Still gonna try some more naptime, if I can get it, cause i’m still pretty bagged.

    I do want to say how much I deeply appreciate the kind words, last night and this morning. It’s a very alone feeling, to be more or less bedridden when you’re living alone, and even if it’s “just” my glowbox friends**, I feel very much the love and warmth of your caring, and it definitely helped keep me from having something of a freakout last night. There comes a point when the pain won’t go no matter what you do that you start feleing depserate, and frsutrated that you can’t look after yourself in any but the most basic ways***, and that point is softened very much by knowing there are people who care, and who are empathetic about the ouch.

    So thank you all for being a well-constructed safety net of awesomium alloyed with amorine (AwAo(3))****. It truly does help. I’m really glad I came here.


    I think it was bworroll and Beatrice (forgive me if I get names wrong, but everything is hard just now) who were talking about how they can be cool as ice when there’s nothing known flirty going on, but when the social stuff starts, they get all tongue-tied and distant because they don’t feel they know how to flirt. One thing I’d found after years of being very protective of my safety (transition in the 90s being a little on the stressful side) is that I was giving off a strong impression of what my friends came to call “FOALMA”: Fuck Off And Leave Me Alone. It took some lengthy experimentation to determine the bounds within which my FOALMA generator would start up, but the initial diagnosis came when I was at a dinner with several very sex-positive friends, all of whom were hugging each other and harmlessly flirting…but not with me.

    And being a group of close friends, I figured I’d ask: why isn’t anyone flirting with me? One of them said that I just didn’t give off the impression that I wanted to take part. So I had to learn how to take down the walls a bit, be more vulnerable and open to my friends, so that they could be allowed to love me the way I was able to love them.

    Now it’s mostly serious pain which sets off my dusty and underused FOALMA generator, because it’s very hard to focus on caring about someone outside me when I’m on day 3 of 8/10 level pain.

    You folks? You help me with that. It’s one of the things I love about the place and the people.

    I hope maybe the concept will click for someone into a way of helping to unplug their own FOALMA generators, and let loving people in again. :)

    Yeah, yeah, clue-through fer taggin, homeez. ttyl.

    * Professional icepack-using tip from the Girl Who Lives With Pain: get hold of the ones they use for shipping meds that need refrigeration, like insulin and such. They freeze hard, and even placed with only a thin layer of cloth between body and ice, they will keep usably cold for several hours. In summer, I put one between my pillows so I can always turn over the top one and have a nice cool spot to lie on.

    ** Glowbox friends is what our seven-year-old came up with, when we were trying to explain to her in 1995 that the friends who were coming over were those we’d only previously “met” online. *waves* at glowbox friends.

    *** Dinner: what’s the two easiest foods I can put together in the shortest amount of time standing? Breakfast: what can I pour milk over? Lunch: Meh, who needs three meals a day anyway, let’s just leave this one so the pain peak doesn’t mean a pain puke.

    **** Awesomium Triamoride. Excellent stuff, strong but supple, warm where needed, and capable of tele-radiating through the Tubes.

  97. Dhorvath, OM says


    Am I the only one who sometimes faces sleep as a grim task that must somehow be gotten through, rather than a blissful recharging of batteries?

    Ah, sleep. I have some familiarity with your sitaution. Gentle hugs your way.

    It is a hard thing to find our parents in need of care, most especially if they can’t articulate their needs. I hope you find a balance that works for both of you, but please take care of yourself first.

    From the depths of time has my nym flown on breaths no human could utter without unhinging the doors in their mind. Bad things happen to those who figure the silent syllables implied by Dhorvath, I would that they not happen to you. So, to be safe, try to say all, (but just rub the h on the way past,) of the letters you see. It’s for the best.

  98. says

    Yay for your parents.
    I made a variety of Speculoos.
    Not with the fancy patterns, but a very simple veryion where I just cut the dough in squares. But with flaked almonds on the bottom. You can see them well in the picture, but the recipe says you should put them on the surface and then roll out the dough on top. Only that of course the almonds get crushed into smithereens. So, the secon protion I rolled out I put the almonds on top after rolling and then tried to make them stick, but they got crushed, too. Finally I simply cut my squares and used some of the egg/milk mixture I used for the tops on the bottoms and then dipped them in the almonds. Worked fine. Tonight I want to try some fancy looking variety of the good old two cookies and jam recipe.

  99. says

    Glad to hear you got some sleep. *hugs*

    Yay for your parents.

    I’m also one of those who’s completely oblivious to people flirting/expressing their attraction to me (although oddly I apparently flirt back on autopilot sometimes without being aware of that either; it’s led to some odd conversations). Most of my sexual/romantic liaisons have come from someone getting frustrated at my denseness and just asking straight out if I want to go somewhere and fuck or what.

  100. says

    @622, theophontes – That. Is. Awesome.


    Какое умное!*

    * If you’ll forgive my gender-neutral pronouns there, I’m not sure which set you prefer to draw from. Still…a cross-language meaning like that is beautiful. I am in envy. I’ve spent a certain amount of time trying to see if I can pair two kanji (specifically) to render “Cait” in Japanese “keito” in a way that reflects me interestingly, but I haven’t found one that works yet. There was one where it’s the verb for “to transfer, pass” plus a noun for “form”, but as best I can tell, the “transfer” isn’t really a “change”, so much as a “giving NOUN to someone else” nuance. The other possibility I’ve considered was using either “ke” and “e” as separate morphemes which might work in a three-kanji name, or rendering “to” instead as “chi”, because it isn’t uncommon for people to call me “Caitie”, and thus Kei/Ke-e plus to or chi. and yes, of course I know I could and should just write it in katakana like a good girl, but this is play, so hmph. :)

  101. A. Noyd says

    CaitieCat (#624)

    but as best I can tell, the “transfer” isn’t really a “change”, so much as a “giving NOUN to someone else” nuance.

    Are you referring to verbs with this kanji: 渡 ? Because while it doesn’t mean change, the verb 渡る does mean traversing something, whether that something is a bridge, an ocean or life itself.

  102. says

    Uhm, can I ask for a little help?
    I need an English native speaker, preferably with a background in academia/academic writing to proofread a very short summary I have to hand in. It’s just under 200 words and I only need to know if you understand what I’ve written and if I made some grave mistakes…

  103. says

    Yeah, I think that’s it. I don’t have my glasses on…or near me, apparently, they’re probably sitting on the back of the toilet in the reading room, and I can’t read any kanji with more than about six strokes without them.

    If it’s the one I’m thinking, I hadn’t been able to find any indication it was used figuratively, as in “to cross a rite of passage place” kind of thing. If it does, then that plus “to” / form could make a really nice signifier for me. Maybe I’ll see if I can get someone to make a necklace charm of it.

    Thanks, ノイド先輩, as usual you are the source of wisdom I seek. :)

  104. A. Noyd says

    CaitieCat (#627)

    If it’s the one I’m thinking, I hadn’t been able to find any indication it was used figuratively, as in “to cross a rite of passage place” kind of thing.

    Well, the protagonist of the coming-of-age novel “Brave Story” is named Wataru, and that’s not just because he crosses over into a fantasy world. The kanji for his name is different, but it means the same thing as 渡る.

  105. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says


    If you need a 2nd opinion, you can send it to me – my nym, no spaces. Use the google post.

  106. says

    Crip Dyke
    Thank you.
    I’ll take you up on the offer for the next assignment. It’s not important enough to bother two people.

    Urgh sorry.

    Also, cookies #5 are almost done.
    It’s the first time I used food colouring for the dough and I quite like the results. I don’t like icing, it’s too sweet IMO, so this is a nice way to get some colour on the cookie plate

  107. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says


    The haters won the election. That’s all.

    Your dad who isn’t particularly pro-queer? Getting out to vote pro-queer? That’s an example of people seeing that their interests are linked to queer interests. That, frankly, is more optimistic than a patronizing, “You’re disgusting, but you’re my child so I guess I’ll vote against this,” motivation that is quite common amongst those voting pro-queer for the first couple of times.

    It doesn’t make today any less horrible, but it gives us much more reason to be hopeful for the future.

  108. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Fossil Fishy – Yes!

    I somehow missed your #593, but I have seen those devices in use. There’s a folk festival in Vancouver every year, and I managed to get to the city for it this year. It was pretty spectacular. More than one artist used one, but this particular duo (Whitehorse, I think?) made *extensive* use of it.

    So though I hadn’t been familiar with Zoe Keating before, but I was familiar with the concept, not least from Nice Peter.

    I miss playing percussion – also from so long ago – but when I actually have work (school is burning through quite a lot of cash right now), I certainly intend to get more equipment, and I’d much rather have drums and a looper than a drum machine.

    We’re a fairly musical household these days. I wish I’d grown up in a household as musical as this one is now.

    Anyway, thanks for the note.

    What will you be using yours with? Right now I only have acoustic guitars, but when I have some real money, I wouldn’t mind something with that half-acoustic look pioneered by Les Paul. Some humbucking pickups. If I have the money for a custom finish, you can bet I’ll be doing something queer flag-ish.

  109. lindsay says

    I’ve been poking at a commenter on another site (who got all riled up by the MFAP thing, actually) who claims that it’s proven that 85% of humans (just 85%) of humans have rhesus monkey ‘blood’ because of the rH factor. I just smart enough to know that it is complete bullshit, but haven’t been able to come up with a counter-argument beyond A) WTF does ‘blood’ even mean in this context and B) humans and rhesus monkeys diverged 25 million years ago. Can anyone help me with an argument beyond that?

  110. FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist) says

    Hey Crip Dyke. I came in to work on my day off to be here when it arrived.* I’m looking at the box, right over there! So. Very. Excited!

    More later.

    *Postal tracking numbers, a blessing and a curse. Like I need one more thing to refresh every five minutes. :)

  111. says

    I’d start with Wikipedia. It appears that this person is aware that the Rh nomenclature for blood factors comes from Rhesus, and that roughly 85% of non-Basque Europeans have Rh D factor (the one that’s referred to by default with Rh+/RH-), although they seem to have missed that that’s for Europe, not the human population generally. The short of it is that an experiment in 1940 showed that a serum made from rabbits injected with Rhesus Macaque blood caused a reaction in blood from 85% of their test samples (which came from people of European extraction). The researchers called this blood factor Rh to signify that it reacted with Rhesus monkey serum. Two years later, it was demonstrated that the Rhesus blood factor and the human one were different, and that the ‘factor’ identified via the Rhesus serum was actually a complex of 5 antigens, of which Rh D is the most common and prominent.

  112. cicely says

    My jellyfish shelled out, and are bleedin’ demised.
    I am sorrow, and perplexity.
    :( :( :( :( :(

    Giliell, just remember that the cookies in those pictures are Paid Professionals. They have to look like that.

    CaitieCat, I think “glowbox friends” is irresistibly cute.
    I’m happy to hear that you got some sleep; and may you get many hours more.

  113. chigau (違う) says

    I hope your day was a total success.

    Poor baby jellies :'(
    Do you know what went wrong?

  114. cicely (Sorrow, and Perplexity) says

    Not a clue.
    The Mark 1s no longer exist in any form, because they shelled out early on. The remnants of the Mark 2s, in which I thought I’d solved that problem, are, as of this afternoon, still shelf stable, as are the possibly-salvageable Mark 3s. These were Mark 4s, and I was sure that they were good to go. In fact, it was as I was sewing on the interior for one of them, preparatory to making a box for it and sending it off, that I noticed.
    There’s one Mark 4 remaining, and I haven’t looked at it for fear of what I will see.

  115. cicely (Sorrow, and Perplexity) says

    (Upon reflection, I should perhaps make it clear that these jellyfish are not, and never have been, living creatures. They’re Xmas tree ornaments. Or were going to be.)

  116. thunk: she'd rather be on a train says

    hi all!

    Caitie Cat:

    Humph! Foreigners introducing political correctness into the precious Russian language!

    (In all seriousness, it is annoying to try and be gender-neutral, any attempt is just bad and stilted.)

  117. says

    LOL, too true, thunk. Also, my apologies I’ve not gotten back to you yet, it’s been a week from HELL for me with the pain and no-sleeping issues. You’re not forgotten, just buried in a rockalanche of my disability. :(

  118. Hekuni Cat, MQG says

    cicely – *pouncehug* Very sorry about your jellyfish, of which I admit to being envious. Jellyfish ornaments sound awesome.

  119. says

    This is cool!

    Mexican entrepreneurs developed a system capable of using the vehicular flow to generate electric energy. This development has the potentiality to produce sufficient electricity to power up a household through a device that “catches” the force of the moving cars. “This is a technology that provides sustainable energy and could be implemented at low prices, since it’s a complement of already existing infrastructure: the concrete of streets and avenues,” Héctor Ricardo Macías Hernández, developer of the system, said. He added that at a global level there are no records of similar projects, with exception of an English patent, but with the difference that in the European country piezoelectric floors are used, which are too expensive for developing countries.

  120. cicely (Sorrow, and Perplexity) says

    chigau, I am sorry if I have offended/annoyed you; obviously, I confused you, which wasn’t my intention.
    These are the same jellyfish for which I remarked, some unknown length of time ago, that I had been using the wrong glue.
    I thought that I was now using the right glue…but perhaps, not.
    I just don’t understand why the catastrophic failure now, especially when there’s no evidence that other, more prototypical jellyfish were not failing similarly, in spite of my having used the same glue.

    *pouncehugback* for Hekuni Cat.
    In my mind’s eye, they were awesome; I feel that they would have at least been adequately attractive.
    A single Mark 5 has been successfully delivered to its owner—but the Mark 5 deviates significantly from the Mark 4, and can not aspire to the level of theoretical awesome inherent in the Mark 4.

  121. chigau (違う) says

    No worries.
    Sometimes I just cannot remember who has what problem.
    Then I just quietly go back and re-read threads until it becomes clear.

  122. says

    Pope launches questionnaire of catholic opinion. Dude, seriously…? Anyone who is anyone knows that when the elite deign to communicate with the 99% (aka the peasants) you use Twitter. Just ask JPMorgan or Richard Dawkins!

    The 38 questions are larded with theological jargon, and will leave many of the faithful scratching their heads and Googling the Catholic Encyclopedia.

    See? People are going to think its like a take home test. Cheating will be rampant. I mean, just look at this sample question:

    Take question 1a, for example:

    Describe how the Catholic Church’s teachings on the value of the family contained in the Bible, Guadium et spes, Familiaris consortio and other documents of the post-consiliar Magisterium is understood by people today?

    I know you are wise enough to know the average person likely knows little of these documents. For that matter, how well do you know them?

    Getting feedback from lay people is a fine idea. It shows that a man in your respected position knows how to pretend to care what the people have to say. Next time, Tweet it.

  123. says

    Good morning
    Folks, you’re great people

    Sorry about the jellyfish :(

    What annoyed me about the cookies wasn’t that they didn’t look like the high-gloss picture, but that it was totally not possible to get that look with those instructions but totally possible to get it with slightly different instructions.

    Also, cookies #5 done completely. They look really festive

    Kid story:
    The kids are a little more than 2 years apart, so last year, when they were both in kindergarten their lives overlapped almost 100%. Now with #1 in school much has changed. Also, with me having a hard term in college, my avaible time has sunk even more.
    So the little one sees things where her sister is getting attention and she isn’t. Mind you, none of us would particularly value that attention because it is “how’s your homework? Did you finish your homework? Get back to your desk and do the godsdamn homework!”* or “what do you want on your sandwich?”
    So the little one is dealing with this in her own way: She took a plushie (actually, it was my plushie. For about 30 seconds…) and plays mummy. The “Moffelchen” goes to school, does homework, eats lunch, loses milkteeth, gets to watch TV…
    Utterly cute.

    *I’m quite privileged that way since she has no problem keeping up with the schoolwork intellectually, so I don’t need to find another 30 minutes a day for remedial reading or walking her through maths

  124. birgerjohansson says

    A name like “Black Friday” would make sense if we had a religion that commanded human sacrifice on that thay, sort of like the Germanic cult of Nerthus, the god that went extinct before the viking era.

    Or maybe “Black Friday” should be a day when we get a catharsis by acting out all the frustration and hate stored up during the year -I think Steven King wrote a story like that.

    — — — — — — —
    Sweden is trying to introduce the gender-neutral “hen” from Finnish, to supplement “han” and “hon” (he and she).

  125. birgerjohansson says

    I usually order from Brit Amazon. Are they equally oppressed? Don’t they have labour unions, unlike Merka?

  126. bassmike says

    Just a brief note to say thanks to all those who replied with kind words after my last post. Also to let you all know that my daughter appears to be well again. I think I came down with what ever she had as I was off for two days last week with dizziness and nausea. Judging by her lack of coordination I’m guessing she had the same thing. All is back to normal (whatever that is) until next time!

  127. A. Noyd says

    Kevin (#662)

    So I almost just got hit by a car that was too impatient to wait for the shuttle that was stopped so I could cross the crosswalk.


    There’s a bus stop at an intersection between my house and school where the bus drivers will sometimes swing the front of the bus into the inside lane after letting people off. Even though there’s a crosswalk and light, too many incautious drivers like to zoom down the inside lane and through the crosswalk on a red light because it’s an odd intersection and it looks like (if one pays no attention to the paint and signs) the natural place to stop thirty feet down the road.

    When the bus drivers don’t block that lane with their buses and I’m trying to cross at the crosswalk, you better believe I inch out across the outside lane and peer around the bulk of the bus to see if any drivers are about to murder pedestrians.

    Also, it’s astonishing the number of people who back their cars into crosswalks without even looking.

  128. Esteleth, statistically significant to p ≤ 0.001 says

    Home from traveling.

    At work.

    Exhausted. Running on >4 hours of sleep.

    Data analysis makes me go “meh.”

    CaitieCat has contacted me to say that her computer is FUBAR. Until she gets it back up and running, she will be absent from FTB, and asked me to pass this news on.

  129. opposablethumbs says

    Does anyone have any way of checking if Ogvorbis is OK?

    Glad you are un-run-over, Kevin!

    Love the working-it-out-in-play that #2 is doing, Giliell! Taking it in, getting the world in order … :-)

  130. pHred says

    okay – 666 comments when I log in to do this – how odd.

    Right – so my mother surprised me at Thanksgiving when she started talking about wanting to read the Gospel of Mary Magdalene – that they were her actual words and something about the Dead Sea Scrolls. I am afraid that my face reflected the *boing* that happened in my mind. There was a bit more disjointed conversation as I was attempting to figure out WTF she was actually talking about before we wandered onto some safer territory.

    As far as I understand it the Gospel of Mary is mostly thought to be a Gnostic text and that fragments of it have shown up in three different collections (none of which are the DSS) but I know if I start on this my mother is going to shut down. So …

    I was hoping that some of the brilliant, or at least well read, horde could give me some book recommendations about both the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gospel of Mary that tackle the subject is a scholarly but accessible way? I don’t want the woo woo version of things and I also don’t want diatribes – but something that can put this into some historical context for my mom ?

    Many many thanks !!