So far we’ve had honest rape, legitimate rape, and now forcible beat-up rape. Oh, and let’s not forget forgotten rapes, although everybody else seems to have.
How about if we keep it simple? There’s sex without consent. That’s rape, period. It’s not somehow ameliorated if the target is drunk, unconscious, too young to know better, or if you were so kind as to not beat them up, tie them up, or kill them during the act.
It’s also still rape even if you intimidate the victim into silence, get social collusion to shame the victim, or otherwise suppress the evidence that you did it.
If you force someone to eat shit, it doesn’t matter if you put sugar sprinkles on it, or worse, if you put ground glass on a different piece of shit and try to excuse yourself because you didn’t make them eat that.
and the judge apologized for saying “but it wasn’t some forcible beat-up rape”… but stands by the rapist’s 30-day sentence.
Guess it’s 28 days now.
The different “types” of rape strike me as an attempt to muddy the waters. As you say it is all bad. There is no “type” of rape that is better or worse.
Rape is an horrific violation of another human being. Full stop.
Pteryxx:
Did you see the petition against the judge and the school principal?
Y’know, every single time some flaming doucheweasel, no matter their station in life, uses the whole “hey forcible beat-up rape” business, it goes a long way in effectively silencing me. Why? Because I’m one of those rare people who did have the forcible beat-up, tried to murder me rapes, and while I don’t mind using my experience as an example for educational purposes, I constantly try to emphasize the majority of rapes are not like that.
Now, thanks to idiots and assholes everywhere, I feel like relating my experience is doing a massive disservice to other people who have been raped or sexually assaulted, because all it does is shore up the idea that it’s the only type of “legitimate” rape.
Christ onna stick lets hope we aren’t about to get the same load of shite again here. What a destructive set of morons.
On reread, Caine@4: please don’t go taking responsibility for anybody else’s stupidity. There is literally nothing anyone can say that some asshole somewhere can’t twist into supporting their own fuck-wittedness with.
If you shut up for fear of giving cover to someone who is just looking for an excuse, you delay them for just long enough to find different cover somewhere else – it’s surely there for the taking. Meanwhile the people who would have been helped, won’t be.
It’s not a zero sum game.
(On reread again: if that sounded like I meant “only take responsibility for your own stupidity”, well, that’s probably true too – I certainly have to often enough – but I don’t see how it applies here.)
Tony@3, can you point to the petition? They only do so much, but if it’s what I can do…
Forcible beating-up is assault. A crime.
Non-consensual sex is rape. A crime.
Combining them makes two (2) crimes.
Pteryxx: re 28 Days: one more word, and we could sit back and picture the Judge, the Superintendant and the Rapist being eaten by fast zombies, which would be at least getting some practical value out of them.
“The Judge, the Superintendant and the Rapist”. Sounds like early Ang Lee on bad acid.
This piece in xojane is by a woman who very powerfully takes down the judge’s statement that the girl “was older than her years” and responsible for the relationship, and exactly why it is that a 14 year old can’t give anything considered “consent”. (tw: she talks about her own experiences being taken advantage of as a high school student)
Saw this on facebook the other day; summarizes the conversation pretty well:
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/q71/s720x720/994326_517691998300848_894527621_n.jpg
Caine: well then they turn around and find different reasons why the forcible beat-up rapes don’t count, as in EEB’s story. It’s just more gaslighting, more being used against each other.
I may as well leave these here since we’re probably going to need them. All three include forcible rape being blown off, or much worse, by police and prosecutors.
—TW for details and victim-blaming at all these links—
http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2013/08/23/i-am-a-false-rape-allegation-statistic/
http://www.vice.com/read/i-got-raped-then-my-problems-started
http://www.racialicious.com/2008/12/21/original-essay-the-not-rape-epidemic/
Pteryxx:
Yeah, I know. It’s just disheartening.
This may be a bit tangential to the discussion, but I’m not quite sure this is the most common definition? I know the National Intimate Partner Violence Survey limited their definition of rape to “completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration,” which doesn’t exactly cover all forms of non-consensual sex, and I was always under the impression that that was the generally accepted definition of rape. Not that that should change one’s response to other forms sexual violence that don’t meet that specific definition, of course.
Might as well get started here. First up:
CCC (Crystal Clear Consent):
* First of all: Understand that if you go forward with initiating sexual activity not knowing if consent exists, you may or may not be raping someone, but you have proved beyond a shadow of doubt that you are willing to rape someone. Black areas make you a rapist, grey areas make you willing to rape.
* Making absolutely sure that consent is obtained and mutually agreed on. This does not include trying for consent when a person is not in condition to grant consent.
* No doubts as to whether consent was obtained.
* No guesses as to whether consent was obtained.
* No assumptions as to whether consent was obtained.
* No doubt as to whether any partner was capable of giving consent at the time.
Crystal Clear Consent Practices:
* Understanding that consent may be withdrawn, by any involved party, at any time. Initial consent does not mean you get to carry on if consent has been withdrawn. In other words, people are allowed to change their mind at any point.
* If you have not had sex with a given person before, mutually understood language with confirmation is the best way to attain Crystal Clear Consent. Relying on body language or assuming consent without clarification is nearly always insufficient with a new partner. Consent that is not communicated is not CCC.
* If your partner is communicating something, do not assume that it has nothing to do with consent.
* If you initiate or offer and are declined in the context of a specifically romantic, sexual, or flirtations setting, do not initiate or offer again until one of the following four occur:
1. the other party has taken a turn initiating/offering and been declined by you.
2. the other party has taken a turn initiating/offering, was accepted by you, but after the activity lapsed you wish to restart.
3. it is an entirely new romantic, sexual, or flirtatious setting.
4. An amount of time has passed that is inverse to the number of times they have accepted your offer before. While it may be acceptable when dating to offer again in a week or in a closer relationship to initiate again after, say, one day [or whatever is the negotiated norm in said relationship] it’s not acceptable to ask someone again if you’ve just met them.
* If you initiate or offer and are declined in a context that is not specifically romantic, sexual, or flirtatious, do not initiate or offer again. Seriously.
* If you’re beginning a new relationship or going for a casual hookup, enthusiasm is key! Your new partner should be enthusiastically and happily involved with you. If no enthusiasm is present, it’s best to go for more communication and put off sex for a while.
* A person who wants consensual sex doesn’t want to commit or experience rape, and a person who rapes does. Whether a given rapist wants their victim(s) drugged, unconscious, frightened, intimidated, trapped, manipulated or tricked, or just pestered until they give in, the rapist wants the end result to be that a rape happens. That includes being forced to penetrate someone else.
* Contrary to what is often thought, consent is not difficult. If you still aren’t clear at this point, read this: http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2011/09/20/consent-is-hard/ and this: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/06/if-consent-was-really-that-hard-whiny-dudes-would-fail-at-every-aspect-of-life/
* Don’t want to listen to us? How about MIT:
Effective Consent is:
– informed;
– freely and actively given;
– mutually understandable words or actions;
– which indicate a willingness to participate in
– mutually agreed upon sexual activity.
Into the Sky:
Do you think that might have had something to do with defining parameters within an Intimate Partner relationship? Christ, read for comprehension. Now, do some thinking, if you don’t mind – if there is no consent, then yes, it’s rape. FFS, what do you think would be okay when there is no consent?
Basic education links ahead. Be daring! Be different! Excite your brain with learning! Short form: click the pretty blue words and read.
Part 1:
Explainer: What’s an MRA?
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/10/explainer-whats-mra.html
Rape Culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture
Rape Culture 101
https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/rape-culture-101/
http://victimblaming.tumblr.com/
Excellent explanation of privilege
https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/
Basic education links ahead. Be daring! Be different! Excite your brain with learning! Short form: click the pretty blue words and read.
Part 2:
Nice Guy™ 101.
http://synecdochic.livejournal.com/214607.html
Schroedinger’s Rapist.
http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/
Meet the Predators
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
Predator Redux
https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/predator-redux/
Things Happen to Men Too
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/
Into the Sky:
That definition erases male victims who were forced to penetrate.
Next.
We’re only a dozen comments in and there’s already someone arguing with the definition of rape?
*throws hands up in the air!*
Basic education links ahead. Be daring! Be different! Excite your brain with learning! Short form: click the pretty blue words and read.
Part 3:
XYOnline
http://www.xyonline.net/
The Male Privilege Checklist
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
Intent is not magic
http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/intent-its-fucking-magic/
Straight Privilege Checklist
http://lgbteducationforum.com/?p=123
Rape Prevention Aimed At Rapists Works
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2013/01/08/rape-prevention-aimed-at-rapists-does-work/
Basic education links ahead. Be daring! Be different! Excite your brain with learning! Short form: click the pretty blue words and read.
Part 4:
Social Justice and Economics
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Economics#Social_justice_and_economics
Social Justice Link Roundup
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Feminist_link_roundup
Implicit Bias (We All Haz It!)
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Feminist_link_roundup#Implicit_bias
Every Fucking Question You Have About Rape and Alcohol Answered, Over and Over*:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/08/what-do-you-do-when-someone-pulls-the-pin-and-hands-you-a-grenade/comment-page-1/#comments
*Note: 9 pages of answers, read them all.
http://answersforrapeapologists.blogspot.com/
Basic education links ahead. Be daring! Be different! Excite your brain with learning! Short form: click the pretty blue words and read.
My oppression is not your thought experiment
http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason/2013/04/03/my-oppression-is-not-your-thought-experiment/
White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
Predator Theory
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/03/25/predator-theory/
Timeline
http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2013/08/12/sexual-harassment-accusations-in-the-skeptical-and-secular-communities-a-timeline-of-major-events/
On teaching consent:
http://goodmenproject.com/families/the-healthy-sex-talk-teaching-kids-consent-ages-1-21/
Alexandra:
I know. To use a well known trope, one is tempted to think the flaming doucheweasels are hiding behind a bush in a shadowy corner of the ‘net, waiting to jump out and slay with their stunning rape apology.
Well, the fact that the legal definition of “rape” in many jurisdictions, which is what the one you’re quoting is based on, is far narrower than it should be is a related topic, but bringing it up as if it’s an objection to other points about people attempting to gerrymander what is or isn’t rape isn’t so much tangential as it is perfidious derailing.
PZ: You forgot harmless rape. That’s what happens when you ignore the innovative out-of-box thinking that only libertarian professors can provide.
Caine:
First, I’m pretty sure I don’t think anything would be okay when there is no consent?
Second, the survey covered more than just violence within an intimate relationship, despite that being one of its primary areas of study. And besides, intimate partners can have non-penetrative sex, yes?
I was just under the impression that rape was a particular kind of non-consensual sex, not that there are any types of non-consensual sex that are in any way acceptable.
Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too:
Ah, fair enough. I didn’t really mean it to be seen as in any way an objection to any points made, I just wasn’t clear on terms. I’ll drop it if it’s a problem.
I’ve been all WTF over that 30-day sentence since I heard of it. And this morning I discovered I graduated from the high school in question. Damn.
Into the Sky:
Holy…*deep breath*
Rape is not a type of sex. Look, I have one hell of a temper, and a highly twitchy trigger finger when it comes to sending an alert about rape apologists. I suggest you don’t push the issue. If you are actually interested in educating yourself, you have a shitload of reading to do: See posts # 13, # 15, # 16, # 19, # 20 and # 21.
Okay, not quite sure how I came across as a rape apologist, but I’ll refrain from posting anything else until I’ve finished reading said posts.
Why the obsession with definitions and terms… Jeeeesus.
<robot-voice>
Does not compute. Terminology inconsistent. Need to update parameters.
</robot-voice>
#4 Caine, Fleur du mal
Oh, Caine, I’m sorry. =(
It’s not your fault. Even if your case shores up their own fucked up ideas, you do more harm than good.
But I dispute that your case contributes to it for several reasons:
1. How many times have assholes tried to use the whole “Oh, you think what happened to you was bad, what about those viciously assaulted and almost died by their rapist? How is that both rape?”. They just love that little gotcha to turn survivors against each other. You defend us and take them down when they try to pull that. After all, isn’t there a chance they think your case is legit, in their minds it might lend us legitimacy.
2. Any survivor silenced by these douchecanoes, is a win for them. It’s one of their main goals but We Are Legion ™.
3. We don’t deny that those stereotype rapes occur. Considering how many survivors there are here, it only makes sense that we have representative cases among us. For instance, one of my rapes was where I was drugged at a party by two brothers, who were black. They were both going to rape me, but after the first was finished they saw the blood (I was a virgin) and freaked out. They left. It’s not one I talk about a lot because it doesn’t harm me daily like my other rape ( i.e. father and significant other) but it happened. I was the lily white, straight A, Letterman award winning, never gone to a party, never did drugs before virgin girl raped by The Scary Minority™. I could’ve waved my bloody sheets but I didn’t. I couldn’t even speak up because of the slut shaming, victim blaming assholes. The main difference between then and now?
You.
Yes, every member of The Horde has helped as well but your voice was the raised above the clamor and reached me.
Specifically, especially, you.
I’m so,so sorry they are making you feel bad.
Those. fucking. assholes. Grrr.
JAL, thank you. There aren’t enough words to express how much I love you.
Me, #30
Holy fuck, I screwed that up. I meant to say that you, Caine, do more good than harm. They are the ones doing harm by deliberately twisting your story to fit their narrative and taking it out of context of rape culture to try and deny rape/rape culture. Sorry, train of thought got ahead of the tracks my fingers were laying down and it got all wonky.
I’m not usually in favor of judgeships being elected positions, but the silver lining of that system is that there’s a chance this asshole will be voted out soon. Unfortunately, it appears that as of last week, no one was running against him, but hopefully a viable candidate will be spurred into action by his behavior this week.
#31 Caine, Fleur du mal
Aw, Caine, I feel the same way about you. ♥
Fern:
Unfortunately, the judge in that one case is a mere jot on the pinhead of the iceberg which is rape culture. While anything done to that judge might be satisfactory in the short run, the incredibly hard work of continuing to yell about, and educate about, and changing the status quo of rape culture is still right in front of us all.
From the xojane link above
The immediate problem is that you’re essentially coming in with “err, some of that is ‘sexual assault’ not rape per se” (which is a distinction without a difference except in very narrow circumstances) to people who have become very, very accustomed to people coming in with “that wasn’t rape, you just regret it now!” You can understand why anything resembling pontificating about what is or isn’t rape would set people off, especially if they’ve been on the receiving end of the latter, right? The second part of that is that by bringing up that distinction you sound like you care more about being pedantic than extremely serious effects on actual people’s lives.
Thank you for not doubling down, at least.
chigau I think points it in the right direction.
There is rape = none consensual sex
and assault and other crimes of various kinds
we have more than one kind of crime going on more accurately describes what is going on here.
drugging some one without their consent would be a crime by itself
don’t we consider kidnapping a separate crime even when it is done to facilitate rape.
rape deserves to be considered a crime itself in addition to what ever other acts that were done in conjunction and to facilitate the rape
uncle frogy
Caine @35:
Very true. Still, if the voters decided to kick out a long-sitting judge for these comments, it would send a powerful message that this type of attitude is not acceptable. (Of course, I have no idea whether or not the majority of Billings’ voters would agree with this judge – see, e.g., “Steubenville, town-wide acceptance of rape in”).
Fern:
Yeah, everything about that was a disgrace, including the judge, who schooled the boys as to putting evidence of you committing rape on the ‘net, the slap on the wrist sentencing, and the pronouncement that yes, it would be possible for those poor boys to not go on the sex offender registry after all.
And, to add more, we still get to deal with hundreds of rape apologist who just love to opine “if it’s a real rape, they’d report it to the police!”, refusing to get a clue, even from one doucheweasel judge after another, that there’s zero incentive for victims to report.
At least in the Billings case there isn’t something *important* at stake like *football* so there’s maybe an outside chance that fewer townspeople will have their heads wedged quite so firmly up their own asses as they did in Steubenville.
I feel dirty just typing that.
…and that’s pretty much being recapitulated in this Montana case: the poor rapist teacher, who’s failed to complete a sex offender program, had unsupervised visits with minors during it, can’t be a teacher anymore, and NOW will have to register as a sex offender. Branded with a scarlet letter by the internet! How unfair to actually spread the word about this guy!
Only a traffic violation! Not, like, RAPE or anything! rrgh.
Oh, and according to that article (in the OP) he was warned to stop touching or being alone with female students in… 2004.
*tableflips*
The apologists REALLY hate for the public to be warned about a rapist. Nothing done in private seems to work, though, does it.
Pete:
So do we all. There simply aren’t words for how disgusting that behaviour is.
Pteryxx:
No, it doesn’t, and the end result of attempting to do something in private? Someone gets raped.
Caine
Count me as another one chiming in to say how much good you do. Anyone who might take encouragement in their denialism/apologia is pretty much at the maximum level of bullshitters will bullshit. They’d be pulling that trope out still if you weren’t here, but you are, and you kick their asses.
Pteryxx
Isn’t that convenient? Heaven forbid anything effective be done.
Dalillama, thanks. I know I’m not alone in sometimes feeling that it’s just futile, trying to fight back against the constant assault of rape culture. I know it isn’t an exercise in futility, it just feels that way now and then.
MM:
But, but, we’re ruining lives! Will no one think of the rapists?!
Caine, I’m with you – been on the wrong end of an attempt at the “jump-out-of-the-bushes” stranger-rape, and though I got out of it, I’ve learnt the same caution you have about talking about it. Especially in mentioning the other times I’ve been attacked, successfully or not, because when you mention it’s happened to you more than once, at different times and by different people, and they begin to think you’re just a drama queen dressing things up to make yourself a victim (and yes, I’ve literally heard those words), and the inquisition into how you’re causing them begins.
Thanks for being the sturdy, astonishingly strong woman you are, and for your courage in standing up to them again and again. I admire you in the same amount I do Liss McEwan, or Sojourner Truth, or so many other women who are braver than any ten ‘brave heroes’ could be in their wildest dreams.
Collapsing all rapes into an indivisible category, though I don’t disagree with it, gives me dissonance. I worry about rape victims who decide it was not rape because it doesn’t fit the standard narrative.
I’ve no experience with rape, but I’ve been sexually assaulted a couple times. I didn’t really think of it as assault until later, even though it should have been obvious. I have no interest in accusing the people who assaulted me, because I simply wasn’t very hurt by it. I often wonder if I’m not being feminist enough, because the feminist line is that sexual assault is sexual assault, and all sexual assaults are equally bad etc. etc. I abhor when people are overly forgiving of people who rape and assault, and yet it seems that I hold a double-standard when it comes to the people who assaulted me. Or maybe I have that right, as the victim. I don’t know.
Miller:
Many of us here have that experience too. There are always clouds of issues buzzing around in our heads. I can’t speak for other people, and I have no business linking to their particular stories, however, I can link you to one of mine, the one that has been in the “not rape” box in my brain for decades. Maybe it will help:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/02/04/thunderdome-18/comment-page-2/#comment-555863
CaitieCat, all the love. Always.
Caine: add me to the list of those who have been positively affected/inspired by you (and other hordelings – but you were the first I read and some of what you wrote kicked me very hard in the bits of my brain that had been avoiding thinking about my own experiences for nearly two decades.)
You folks have shown me by example that what I was told back then was unmitigated, victim blaming crap, and although I can’t change what happened or my response to it back then, I can support those who are working to help those who need help now – and those who are working to educate people out of this toxic culture.
Sorry – not very coherent – don’t normally comment on anything to do with rape – too painful and close to the bone.
Eclipsse:
You’re making all the difference, in every way. Thank you. Thank you so much.
You were eloquent. You also make an important point, one that people always need to know: it doesn’t matter if your rape / sexual assault was 40 (or more) years ago, it doesn’t matter if it was a decade ago, it doesn’t matter if it was a year ago, or yesterday. It changes you. It changes your life. Forever. And it always hurts.
miller: my rape didn’t bother me all that much for many years, either, and it still wasn’t a big deal to me past the usual abuse, though it took years for me to recognize and call it that. The “feminist line” (more the anti-rape-culture line, since lots of men and people of all genders are sexual assault survivors, too) isn’t that all sexual assaults are equally bad, it’s that NO sexual assault should be dismissed as less-than-real. There’s no point comparing who had it worse; that’s just another way to blame all of us survivors who don’t fit some sort of Platonic rape-victim ideal.
Yes, it counts. It counts. YOU count. You’re real. The word you think befits your own experience, that’s up to you.
I went looking for the classic book about acquaintance rape research, “I Never Called It Rape”, and found this overview:
http://amptoons.com/blog/2006/01/26/women-who-dont-call-it-rape/
Miller: I have a somewhat similar experience, I guess: I’ve been raped by fraud, insofar as I would not have consented to having sex with the person in question had I not been deliberately lied to about whether she was taking her birth control. In principle, I don’t see why this is less “rape” than, say, the case of that guy who snuck into a woman’s bedroom and pretended to be her boyfriend (which, again, absolutely was). At the same time, I’ve had so little of what seems to be the “typical” rape survivor experience that I feel uncomfortable even identifying as such. :/
Azkyroth:
Please, don’t use phrases like that. Fraud doesn’t rape people, and that sort of usage belittles the actual experience of rape.
You answered yourself. It wasn’t rape because you did consent. I know your experience has been an absolutely horrible one, and has left you scarred and with a shitload of issues to deal with. That doesn’t make it rape. We have a difficult enough time getting the concept of rape across as it stands. People wanting to apply rape to other types of crime does not help.
I think there’d be some potential value in doing so, Azkyroth; as bad as the don’t-report numbers are in general, I suspect they’re even worse for men (relative to the number who are raped compared to women, of course), because of the toxic masculinity construct. One of the things often flung at feminists is that we don’t care about men being raped; it’s patently bullshit, as any quick Google can ascertain, but I think that men who are feminist allies or feminists or whatever they want to call themselves, that men who have experienced sexual assault speak up when they are able, and start dismantling the idea that it somehow affects a man’s gender identity to be assaulted sexually. It’s as much a part of rape culture as any other, and it makes male survivors invisible, as well as giving pretend ‘ammo’ to the apologists.
So, assuming you wanted to and felt up to doing so, I would encourage you to consider identifying publicly, at least where the situation comes up in discussion, as a survivor yourself. I want to emphasize that this is my opinion, and doesn’t have to be yours, nor will I think any the less of you for not doing so. But I think there could be some value to the community, and to other men who’ve been assaulted sexually, in identifying it. There’s no particular reason to expect that a man’s response to being raped would be the same as a woman’s, because we’re starting from different places in society, with different identities and scars on our identities, and so on. I think there’s value in men knowing that even if they’re not feeling a huge violation, that there’s a certain amount of cultural training going into that numbness, and that maybe in our society now, that’s how men feel when they’re assaulted. Not monolithically, but a variety of responses, just as women have.
Sorry, i think that’s a lot of words, but please allow me to use them because I’m hoping that other men who are feeling similarly might feel encouraged that they have a place they can say that and they won’t be ridiculed, or at least defended if they were to be. I don’t think there’s any advantage to society in not knowing how prevalent the problem is. More data isn’t bad, when the people who make up that data are able to say they are. When they aren’t, then they don’t. that’s okay too.
K, I’ma shut up now and get to my client meeting. Sorry for the wall’o’text, and my apologies if anything I’ve written sounds like I mean to pressure you. I really only want to lay out the case, and promise to respect your decision either way.
And here I thought I was being paranoid. So was it Not Rape for that woman too?
Fuck it, I don’t have the energy for this.
Caine, I love you back, but I think we see this differently. In the same sense that knowingly infecting someone with an STD without their consent is not informed consent, being deliberately deceived about fertility (for me) should be considered a not-informed consent. as presented above, I don’t have any reason to disbelieve that report. Won’t be able to answer right away, cause I really have to go now, but I’ll be back on later.
I’ll leave it there, and I apologise if this has come up elsewhere and I’m missing information you have.
Pete:
I cannot link to the Care2 site, but the link to the petition is at the end of this article:
http://m.xojane.com/issues/stacey-rambold-cherice-morales
CaitieCat
This just about knocked the breath out of me, because I know exactly what you’re talking about here.
Trigger Warning for rape
Other than my partner, I just don’t tell people about how many times I’ve been assaulted in various ways. If I start talking about the childhood sexual abuse, the friend who raped me in my own bed and the guy who works at a women’s crisis center who nearly killed me while assaulting me I fear I don’t sound believable at all.
And that is, incidentally, how the man at the crisis center got away with it. He bragged about it to me: “Just how many times can one girl be raped and expect to be believed?” Take someone who has a history of being abused and likely suffers from mental health problems and, well, why would anyone believe her over him? All those bruises were likely just from me liking rough sex, or maybe when the poor guy had to defend himself because I attacked him for no good reason whatsoever. If I keep claiming the same stuff happens over and over again, I must be a liar.
::shudder::
CaitieCat and Azkyroth:
It’s definitely not informed consent! Azkyroth, I apologize. I’m in bad form today. I’m going to go offline today, go cry in my beer or something.
MM:
I have the same problem. The six years of rape as a child, the rape and attempted murder when I was 16, and the sexual assault when I was 18.5 years old.
With that, I’m out. Hold the line, everyone.
This is so unbelievably through-and-through rotten … I can’t help but wonder how some people can face themselves in the mirror every morning.
@ Caine.
A few more proposed points to add to the CCC-concept:
“Consent can only be given by physically and mentally adult people.”
and
“Respect and/or deference are not consent.”
MM:
So so sorry you were put through all that.
The guy from the crisis center is manipulative fucking scum.
Caine:
This.
Thank you again for being the brave one – and for being the inspiration for me to be a bit braver. You rock.
I have a reasonably successful life now – own house, nice car, yadda yadda… and massive trust issues. Still. I doubt that will ever change.
I also have a very short fuse where apologists and ‘well, thats *insert name of country/culture here* for you – it would never have happened here’-ism.We had that in spades in my little bit of the UK during Steubenville.
Pteryxx
^A thousand times this.
I was criticised at my previous job for taking all rape/sexual assaults reports seriously (I worked in education ). The criticism by my then manager was “well, teenage girls lie all the time, so you need to take everything they say with a pinch of salt”(the individual concerned thankfully no longer holds that post in the organisation)
I walked out of the meeting. It was that or punch them.
Thanks for the replies, Caine and Pteryxx. I am not in doubt that what I experienced was sexual assault; I already realized that at least a year ago. However, I don’t personally identify with Caine’s statement addressed to Eclipsse, “It changes you. It changes your life. Forever. And it always hurts.” I am not hurt, and it did not change my life. As such, I think of myself as a victim, but not a “survivor”. Those assaults were messed up, but I suppose it was during a time in my life when I was resilient to it.
FWIW, I am male. But I’m queer, so masculinity doesn’t quite play the same role…
My mind has been just boggled-into-mush as I’ve been reading, over the last week or so, threads here and elsewhere, wherein idiot men – lots and lots of men, including some I was sure knew better – seemed to have turned into asshole rape apologists. (They were of course probably asshat mra’s long before this, I simply must have missed the clues – how could I have done that!!! confuses me).
I mean, from early teenagehood (am currently 55) I understood quite clearly 2 or 3 things having to do with the opposite sex. 1) I have no right to access a woman’s body without explicit permission – continuous permission – enthusiastic permission. 2) No means No – it does not mean ‘get me drunk first then I might say Yes’. If I have to get a woman drunk to hang with me, either I’m a very sick person or she’s a sick person but doing so is crass, dishonorable, cowardly, evil – pick your own set of words. I even knew back then about #3 which is ‘if she changes her mind, I must stop – regardless of how temporarily uncomfortable it may be for me’.
What’s wrong with all these other duchbag men? did no one teach them anything??? I don’t even remember being taught the above, specifically – but I was very observant of other men as well as women, and I could see what was nice, sweet, and wanted compared to what was slimey, selfish – and potentially very illegal.
I just don’t understand how men can be that way (ie: jerk apologists) – it simply doesn’t register to me to act that way.
I’m gonna go take a headache pill – enjoy your evenings, mornings, whatever.
Azkyroth
That was not a case of valid consent, and you are a victim; you have my support.
MM
See, that kind of shit right there is why I sometimes despair; not just that that despicable scumbag and his multifarious clones pull that shit, but that it fucking works, and people buy it from them. All the times where someone’s in a position of power, and the default is ‘oh, that’s a responsible position, that person wouldn’t lie,’ and I think ‘wait, what the hell are you even talking about, people in power lie all the fucking time; what universe are they living in where someone says ‘hey, all these powerful people abused their power to hurt me,’ and people think that? I mean, virtually everyone can pull out a time when someone has abused their power to do them harm in some fashion, however privileged they may be. There’s been a parent, an older family member, a teacher, someone who took a disliking to them and had the power to make it significant. Power gets abused, unless very strong precautions are put into place to prevent that occurring (and yes, that does mean bureaucracy; it’s a fact of civilization) and coming down hard and certainly on instances of abuse. I mean, this is fucking proverbial; ‘power corrupts…’ right? It’s so blatantly obvious to me that I really can’t interpret arguments to the contrary as being in good faith. Basically, in a case of significant power imbalance, for most purposes the presumption should be that the person with more power is acting to protect their power, and that they have been abusing it; anything else is folly. When people claim that someone who says they have suffered from multiple abuses of power by different people should be assumed not credible, and the relatively powerful accusees should be assumed to be assumed credible, I literally cannot see this as anything other than an admission that the person saying this has themselves been abusing whatever power they have, and would do worse if they had the power to. I just can’t see where an adult in a hierarchical society can actually make such a claim in good faith. Pardon my length, a rant just came on me sudden-like.
Eclipssse
This kind of thing is another example of exactly what I’m talking about; I cannot offhand think of anything that would convince me that that manager was not themselves either abusing teenagers or wishing to be in a position to do so, although I suppose that a sufficiently compelling argument might convince me that they had merely knowingly stood by while others did so; that type of argument simply reads as CYA to me, and I can’t impute honesty to anyone who uses it.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
Motivated reasoning.
Caine,
I don’t speak up often, but as one of those raped-by-an-ex-and-didn’t-think-it-was-rape-for-years-because-I-was-in-his-room-alone-so-I-deserved-it-for-trusting-him rape victims, the amount of effort you put in to emphasizing that we’re all rape victims, no matter the circumstances, because consent wasn’t there – it isn’t the only thing which has transformed how I relate to my rape, but it’s been a major part of how I feel like I can and should speak up about my rape. I want to be a little more like you because you are so fierce in your defense of all of us. Your voice has been a major part of me beginning to speak, in my own imperfect, overly-analytical and detached way, and I don’t have words for what that means to me.
I don’t want to tell you what to feel or think or do, but from my perspective I feel like you always have my back – no matter how much the asshole rape apologists try to divide us so we’ll shut up.
TheMellowMonkey @ 62, I hope I didn’t trigger you with that, and apologize if I did. I definitely appreciate you (and Caine) mentioning that you’ve heard the same thing, because it makes it feel a little less…enraging? I don’t know, like, I’m not glad you’ve been through it too? But in a weird way it’s helpful to know someone else has been there. Sorry if I’m incoherent about this, it’s probably the first time I’ve ever mentioned it publicly, the reaction to when I list the different ways and places I’ve been attacked, between 10 and 26 years old (so, more than 20 years ago now). So thank you for speaking up, and I’m sorry you’re in this boat with me. If you follow. :)
Tony@61: Thanks, man. Signed.
The rest of you people: weaker sex what now? You folk are rocks. The strength you demonstrate is humbling.
Deoridhe, thank you. Thank you for your strength, your compassion, and your voice. I’m here for you, too. Always.
CaitieCat and MM, I really empathize. It’s frightening and disheartening to hear things like “pfft, none of that could have happened to one person, you’re making stuff up” and the like, and it’s frightening and disheartening to even fear hearing things like that if you share your experiences.
All that said, I seriously fucked up with Azkyroth in this thread (I am so sorry), and I’m deeply upset with some other people here right now, so I’m going to take a break. I can always be reached at my blogs (nym is hyperlinked) and my email address is available from my zenfolio if anyone needs me.
QFMFT.
Caine, this is brilliantly phrased. Have you posted this before? It needs to be boilerplate anytime the doucheweasels do their “well how about this edge case?” routine.
Caine, take care and rest well. We’ll all be here to get the job done. (How did that article go? ‘I wish for one day there was no rape’ ?)
—
…Whoa. That was Dworkin.
“I Want A Twenty-Four-Hour Truce During Which There Is No Rape”
Alethea, the Crystal Clear Consent discussion happened in the depths of the Dr. Phil thread. Nightjar linked it to the Pharynguwiki here:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/22/if-dr-phil-is-a-fraudulent-hack-is-it-ok-to-respect-his-opinions/comment-page-1/#comment-677072
*hugs* and moral support. And *chocolate*.
At least, here, there are many voices speaking up to disabuse them of that notion.
And the things that JAL said, @30.
–
Into The Sky:
An excellent plan! I endorse this plan heartily.
Desire-to-control and sense-of-entitlement, with options on violent aggression, vengefullness, and other negative emotions. Not sex.
–
Azkyroth, I’m not sure whether we’re on a *hugging* basis, but here’s a *non-intrusive-and-refusable gesture of comfort and support*
Is there a category for “fraudulently-obtained consent”? Lies about birth control, or being of legal age? Deliberate withholding information about one’s STDs? Maybe stuck in there with deliberately impairing someone’s judgement with drugs or alcohol. If not, it seems to me that there should be. And that it should go without saying that fraudulently-obtained consent is no consent at all.
–
Mellow Monkey
*hugs*
That is a stunning level of premeditated predatoriness.
:(
I would guess that you weren’t his only victim, either.
–
It’s being fed in with the rest of the common culture. “Her lips are saying, “No”, but her body is saying “Yes”.” “She’s just playing hard to get!”. Luke and Laura. All of those memes, in the literature, in the movies, in audio media, in the stories shared in locker rooms….
They’re soaking in it.
We all are.
–
Caine,
A little late, but I’d like to add my thanks to you in particular and the rest of the Horde. In the Grenade thread, it was your story and the continuing work you did in Not. Letting. Them. Get. Away. With. It. that gave me the confidence to share the story of my rape, something that I hadn’t done in such a complete way in ~20 years because, yeah, I guess you could make the case that it was rape, but it wasn’t really rape-rape, was it? (And to be exacting, yeah, it probably wasn’t according to the then state law — I’m not sure that the particulars of my rape rose to “penetration,” which I think was the operative word at the time.)
Anyway, just wanted to let you know that sharing your experience, as different as it was from mine, was instrumental in allowing me to share mine. Thanks.
I got nuffin’ that hasn’t been said before.
Caine, you rock, and you personally have made me re-examine a lot of my previous behavior — some of which wasn’t all that long ago, or even ongoing. I know I’ve got a ways to go, but I like to think of myself as a half-decent glass at least.
My only complaint is that you apologized in a blog comment. You know that’s just not done! (/snark)
On a tangential note, I’m deeply uncomfortable with petition sites that require your full name and full street address. That just seems like asking for trouble, particularly since they’re displaying only state locations. Now, if this were a petition from an electorate, sure, but for a pressure petition open to anyone who wants to sign? Several avenues of abuse spring to mind.
P.S. I signed, but I live in A Street In, [my actual city], CA. They really don’t need my mailing address. :P
Thanks Pteryxx. That is some damn fine work there. Have a good timeout, Caine. Rest up and snuggle your ratties.
Sex without consent is rape, by definition. But the laws defining consent vary by location, which makes the definition for rape variable. What might be illegal in one state is perfectly legal in another. An adult having mutually agreed upon sex with a 17 year old a state with an AOC set at 18 is not just as bad as other rapes.
Maybe John John, but it depends on many things. Was there any power differential between them for this mutually agreed upon sex? How much older is the adult (are they a peer or someone much older? If they were already in a mutual relationship and one of them turned 18 then the technicalities do seem to be pedantic there.)
I don’t know whether I can’t comprehend the inability of an adult to control their hormones enough to wait until it is legal because I don’t have that drive. Or whether they are pretending that they don’t have that control as an excuse for acting illegally.
@The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical
That really does emphasize how adept predators (and other people who use/abuse others as personal playthings) are at seeking out the most vulnerable targets for their abuse, which I suppose makes the “predator” tag quite apt. Perhaps some time we should consider revising the attributes we consider praiseworthy in individuals so that these people don’t find themselves in trusted positions quite so easily.
@Caine
I’m seriously in awe at how you’ve been handling these threads. I don’t really have anything to add except moral support.
JohnJohn,
QUIT TRYING TO FIND EDGE CASES WHERE RAPE OF CHILDREN IS OKAY. We aren’t talking about Romeo & Juliet laws, or someone 6 months from 18 here. We are talking about fucking 14 year old WHO IS DEAD and who’s rapist got 30 days. A victim who was blames posthumously by the judge for her own rape.
Jesus Christ, wtf is wrong with you?!
…but what if they’re 17 years 364 days and 23 hours old? WHAT THEEEEN DOGS AND CATS AAAUGH
You’re willing to have sex then? Means you’re willing to be a rapist.
Black areas: you are a rapist.
Gray areas: you are willing to rape.
h/t Caine (you are awesome, Caine)
Yes, this makes the legal definition differ.
My personal preference would be that society errs on the side of protecting children at the expense of the ability of some adults to be legally safe in looks-rapey relationships. Most states have “Romeo and Juliet” clauses to restrict the potential harm to just this: an adult might have to worry about whether it’s legal for them to be fucking that child.
To me, those people who need to carefully parse consent laws should ask themselves why. What is so special about some teenager that will be lost if there’s no sex?
QFT
Why the fuck are some people so insistent about having sex with minor children?
@John John
While I have a problem with laws that criminalize teenagers having sex with other teenagers, this isn’t what happened in this case, so I fail to see any legitimate point in bringing it up. There are plenty of illegitimate points you may be trying to make, though.
There is really only one point that I am making: not all rape is equal.
Read PZs post and read comment #2. That’s why I brought it up.
Which kind of rape do YOU prefer?
@JohnJohn
So what? If I kidnap you and lock you up in a 5-star hotel suite with room service that’s surely nicer than if I cram you into a dark cellar with rats for company. Both are kidnappings, though.
Please ask yourself why it is so important to you to make these fine distinctions?
You may be in danger of the evil-othering rape-apology syllogism:
1. Rape is totally evil and only done by monsters
2. Person X is not evil or a monster
3. Therefore what person X does cannot be rape.
That’s an easy trap to fall into, especially in a society that tries very hard to blur lines (as we have several thousands comments wrth here proving). It’s still wrong, though.
wrth=worth. My daily offering to tpyos.
First, thank you to Caine for putting those links together, and for putting yourself out there in the fight despite the personal cost. Thank you likewise to everyone else who has been fighting the good fight against the rape apologists in these threads, it is inspiring.
Second, to the rape apologists–language matters. Wording matters. Words shape how we view reality. Anything to blurs or reduces the sheer, terrible power and meaning of the word “rape” does a disservice (and worse) to rape survivors, and to those of us who would like to end the rape culture.
I’ve been on the wrong end of this myself. I was on another site, on a thread about child abuse, and I unthinkingly made a comment that included the sentence “men who have sex with children”. I was sternly reprimanded by the site owner for that phrase, as being rape apologia. At first I was angry–after all, I was arguing against “having sex with children”, how could I be a rape apologist?
But then, I thought about it, and realized that using that phrasing implies that adults CAN have “sex” with children, which supports the rape culture. My intent was irrelevant; my word choices fed into the rape culture narrative. The comment was edited to read “men who rape children”, and I have tried to use that formulation ever since.
Quibbling over the meaning of the word rape, or whether one type of rape is “worse” than another, is rape apologia, even if it’s not intentional.
Words matter. Choose them carefully.
@Sonderval
[quote]Please ask yourself why it is so important to you to make these fine distinctions?
[/quote]
Well you could kidnap someone for a week and ask for ransom or you could kidnap someone for an hour and then let them go. Both would be kidnapping, but I would not consider them equal.
It seems like the people here make distinctions too but just don’t want anyone talk about them. I find that to be a bit inauthentic.
The point of PZs post was that there are these false distinctions being made. His argument is ruined when he falsely suggests that there are no valid distinctions at all.
Wow, you reach for examples that have you behaving in criminal ways a lot, don’t you?
Seriously, why is it so important to you to establish exactly where the line is? Why not just be a decent human being and say, “Wow, that’s a gross line, I’m going to be over here where things are a little less vile and nonconsensual!”?
Really. If I find out the local jurisdiction says 16 is the AOC, you better believe I’m not going near anyone under about 21, because I don’t want there to be the slightest chance anyone could think I wanted to be a rapist.
You people who keep coming here in various threads trying to establish hair-thin lines about what is and isn’t ‘legitimate’ rape creep me the fuck out, and I don’t ever want to be at the same social occasion as any of you. Decent folk find no need to muck about in the borderline spaces of criminality. Maybe you want to think some about why doing so is important to you.
What distinctions? Rape is sex without consent. There are no distinctions beyond that, unless the definition is changed. All you offer is mental wankery.
John John:
Why are you attempting to make any distinction?
What purpose does that serve?
Rape is non-consensual sex.
It is a horrific violation of one person by another no matter how “nice” the rapist is.
Attempting to make any distinction WRT rape only serves to diminish the horrific nature of the act. There is no rape that is better or worse than another. Any rape violates another human being. Continued attempts on your part to draw any distinction will not be met with civility (which I have granted for some stupid reason), and we will file you away as a Rape Apologist.
Stop trying to minimize rape!
Going back to your comment at #84, John John, I see you are doing the same thing several people in the grenade thread did.
Whether you intend to or not, the end result of your words is-searching for some area, some get-out-of-rape card that will exonerate someone from rape bc, you know somewhere, some city will not consider this one special case Not Rape.
Your actions are those of a rape apologist.
Stop searching for some magical special Non Rape Exemption.
****
This attempt to find a crack by Rape Apologists is starting to look like a wedge strategy. Its like these apologists are thinking “If we can find a gap somewhere, anywhere…a gap that lets us say ‘this is not rape’, then we can expand that gap.”
@JohnJohn
Why are these distinctions so important to you?
Of course not all rapes are equal, but they are all terrible and traumatizing which is the life-changing horror for all those experiencing them.
I have no clue what you mean by “inauthentic” – if you want “authentic”, read the 40+ authentic descriptions of people being raped. (But prepare to feel rather sick afterwards.) None of them is quibbling about exactly what philosophical category their rape belonged to.
What he is saying is that rape is rape – the same as kidnapping is kidnapping. That does not imply that all reapes are identical or identically traumatizing or exactly identically horrible or whatever, but they all belong into the same category, called “rape”. Calling all humans human does not imply that all humans are the same.
Are you asking because you want to rape someone and get away with it, John John?
Because that’s inevitably where my mind goes when people like you show up and start asking questions about whether it’s really “rape-rape”, to steal a phrase from Whoopi Goldberg as she was defending convicted child rapist Roman Polanski.
I have trouble seeing any other reason for parsing fine distinctions of the law when it comes to rape.
But, but, but… what if, say, a 23 year old and a 16 year old get married in the UK (with parental consent, that’s legal), immediately start having sex, have a kid, then go on holiday to Florida with the kid, when she’s 17 and he’s 24, and have sex there? Is it still rape (legally, it technically is)….
Hold on, who cares? Nobody gives a crap about corner cases, or should at any rate. You don’t magically become an adult on a particular day. If you’re not mature enough to give informed consent, it’s rape.
All these people looking for excuses and questions about what “really” is rape sicken and scare me.
If you can’t understand the notion of informed enthusiastic consent, then you should not be having sex.
addendum:
QFT.
John John
I want you to imagine a country in which there are two distinct classes of people*, recognized through law and tradition. I know this is hard to imagine because we all live in classless utopias where everybody is exactly equal, but stay with me here.
People in Class A have the right to vote, to hold public office and take any job that they’re qualified for. People in Class B cannot vote, cannot drink, cannot smoke, cannot take public office, are barred from many jobs, can be held legally liable for being outside after certain hours, and have it–in some cases literally–beaten into their heads since birth to obey Class A. Virtually all authority figures that they’ll encounter will be members of Class A. Class B normally spends around eight hours a day under the explicit authority of state appointed members of Class A.
Now, people move from Class B into Class A. In this strange country of two classes, it’s not uncommon for a member of Class A to seek sex from a member of Class B. Oftentimes, their excuse for this is how close the Class B person is to entering Class A. However, the very real legal differences in authority and social power remain between both individuals until the Class B person moves to Class A. The threat of power from the person in Class A remains. This power is only a legal power and may not reflect the individual interactions between these two people, but legal power is some of the most important power there is in a hierarchical society.
In some jurisdictions of this two class society, it’s legal for a member of Class A to have sex with a member of Class B. The only stipulation is that the member of Class B must be sufficiently close to entering Class A. But up until the member of Class B passes that magical legal barrier and becomes a member of Class A, there is still an important legal difference between the two of them. The member of Class A has all the rights of citizenship. The member of Class B is legally equivalent to chattel.
And so regardless of whether or not the jurisdiction someone is in allows it, the member of Class A who has sex with a member of Class B still has societal power to coerce compliance from their partner. The member of Class A cannot be entirely certain that the member of Class B is consenting because of their personal relationship or because of the huge power imbalance between them. With Class A being the authoritarian class, the member of Class B may not even be consciously aware of the coercion.
Because crystal clear consent cannot be ensured with this power imbalance, the moral response for the member of Class A is to never begin a sexual relationship with a member of Class B. Even if it’s legal for them to have such a relationship in their jurisdiction, unless they are members of the same legal class freely given consent cannot be established. (An existing relationship from when both were members of Class B may be different, as consent between equals had been established when they began their relationship.)
*Please note that this analogy completely ignores the very real developmental differences between adults and children. This is about the morality of adults having sex with almost-adult-teenagers.
I was never beaten. I was never threatened with physical harm. I acquiesced. So, according to your reasoning, yes, I was raped (repeatedly for about 2 years) but it really doesn’t count? Really? Thank you. I guess my nightmares, feelings of guilt, panic attacks, and all the other shit, really mean, what, nothing?
if my wife and I com home drunk and have sex has a rape occurred?
For the love of Jesus Haploid Christ, read the damn links, mijobagi.
The correct answer is: no, but you’re a fucking asshole.
Gee if only we had separate sentencing hearings to determine things like that. herp a derp a do
@Mijobagi
FFS.
You know what
Yes, you’re a rapist. is that what you want? You got your fucking gotcha bone. Now fuck off
@110 mijobagi
Oh my dog mijobagi, we totally never thought of that. It’s good thing we have people like you around to make these incredibly insightful points that we could never have come up with on our own. Thanks ever so much for setting us straight!
Asshole.
…and to add to the pile, here’s yet another example of a violent rape with immediate reporting and physical evidence being disregarded.
—
(TW for all of the above)
—
http://www.xojane.com/issues/it-happened-to-me-if-i-could-go-back-in-time-i-wouldnt-report-my-rape
If neither of you are passed out when the deed starts, and both consent, no. It’s the lack of consent that makes rape fuckwitted idjit, and one of the factors is the ability to consent. Your question has all the congency of a reeking 2 day old turd.
mijobagi,
To correct the answer I gave above: It might have been. Are you okay with that?
If so, you’re an arsehole.
Nerd of Redhead @116,
I disagree. “Drunk” generally signifies the lack of ability to consent. And marriage, of course, does not constitute automatic consent.
Therefore, in the hypothetical about the drunk married couple, rape DID occur–both of them had sex with partners who could not give consent.
Whether either partner would feel raped is a totally different issue.
But “drunk” needs to be a hardline–if someone cannot consent, they cannot consent, even if the other person is also drunk, their spouse, or anything else.
Did you both consent before you got drunk? Did you both continue to consent throughout the entire act? If yes to both questions, a rape hasn’t occured. If you don’t know the answer to these questions, then you might be a rapist. If you don’t care about the answer to these questions, then you’re okay with being a rapist.
For some strange reason, people keep asking these “what if” questions that completely ignore the only question that matters: was meaningful consent given and maintained throughout?
NightShadeQueen, et al
Ok, so I occasionally read this blog and never read the comments or comment myself so I’m not familiar with the history on this topic at least as far as it goes with the regular commenters. I generally agree with all the posts I read here but didn’t like the black and white definition given when it comes to being “drunk”. PZ did say “It’s not somehow ameliorated if the target is drunk” which I interpreted as “sex while drunk = rape”. It seems most people are on the same page as me already. I suppose I could have seen that had I read the comments but I generally don’t have time to read 100+ comments in the small amount of free time I have. In the future, before I comment I’ll look for for the consensus opinion in the comments first.
Sorry if I offended, I wasn’t looking for a gotcha, I wasn’t trying to be an asshole.
At what point in my reply did I ever state consent wasn’t required? Drunk doesn’t always mean falling down/passed out. That is beyond consent. For driving purposes drunk is 0.8%, which for most people would mean they are able to give consent. Especially husband and wife.
Nerd of Redhead @121,
If someone is sufficiently inebriated that they can be considered “drunk”, then there is no way to be sure that they have the capacity to consent.
IT IS NOT OKAY TO HAVE SEX WITH A DRUNK PERSON. If you do, then you are either a rapist, or at the least, someone who is okay with the possibility of being a rapist.
Quibbling over the meaning of “drunk” and hiding behind legal definitions of “drunk” is no better than the people who quibble over the meaning of rape.
Clear, enthusiastic consent, or not at all. It’s the only way.
Oh, and I missed your last sentence (“especially husband and wife”). Being married does not relax the rules of consent–husbands and wives (or two husbands, or whatever arrangement) do not get extra leeway in assessing consent.
In fact, given the prevalence of violence in relationships, and the number of women hurt or killed by their partners, I’d say society needs to be exceptionally vigilant in supporting the right of consent in marriages.
Clear, enthusiastic, unimpaired consent every time. It’s the only way.
Whether or not an established couple (who presumably know each others’ styles of nonlingual communication) who get drunk and then have sex raped each other (if they were both impaired, yes) or not is beside the point.
The issue is people who use such “what if” questions to probe the acceptability of plying someone with alcohol in order to get access to them.
I don’t see it as that different from adults posing “what if” questions about Romeo-and-Juliet couples (i.e. couples who are actually within a year or so of age and are of similar developmental states) so that they can see if they can get away pursuing minors.
@Esteleth:
A thousand times what you said.
It’s the probing questions that freak me out a bit. Are they asking to just JAQ? Or are they asking cause of some type of unchecked guilt or desire?
Have I said anything different? Why are you going on about it? I’m not an MRA troll.
With your attitude, the wife and I have a couple of drinks with dinner, then we are drunk and can’t consent to sex. Which makes it an inane question. And I soundly criticized the “what if” question.
Incidentally, I’m appalled that Romeo and Juliet are the “standard” for a couple featuring a minor and a legal adult who are close in age and who have an established relationship.
What with the fact that the characters in the play do not fit that profile. What with the fact that:
(1) The total elapsed time in the play is less than a week. And the two don’t even know each other when the play starts (oh, and in Act 1 Scene 1 Romeo is busy mooning over a different woman. He is dragged to the party he meets Juliet at by friends who are trying to help him get over said different woman.)
(2) For all the fact that Romeo is sixteen and Juliet fourteen, both are legal adults. Remember that a substantial amount of the plot is driven by Juliet’s engagement to Paris.
(3) The play ends with them DYING.
Esteleth, one of the themes of the play that’s lost on modern audiences–for most people now believe that Europeans of the period were marrying off little girls left and right without batting an eye–is that Juliet’s death was partially her father’s fault. Why? Because he was going to marry her off at an unacceptably young age. It was legal, but seen as undesirable. Had he not been trying to marry her at such a young age, she wouldn’t have felt pushed to take drastic action.
Capulet explicitly recognizes that she’s too young to marry (“And too soon marr’d are those so early made” 1.2.13) and argues with Paris that he shouldn’t be in a rush to marry, but agrees to it anyway. And thus sets the stage for her death.
Romeo and Juliet isn’t an example of how nothing should get in the way of young live. It was illustrating how immature people are at that age and how dangerous it is to push them toward adult relationships.
Nerd @126,
Sex requires clear, enthusiastic, unimpaired consent.
You said that “For driving purposes drunk is 0.8%, which for most people would mean they are able to give consent.” Most people? What about the people who can’t give consent at .8%? Are they just shit out of luck? Do you have some magic box that tells you when someone is “drunk but not too drunk to consent”?
Then you said “With your attitude, the wife and I have a couple of drinks with dinner, then we are drunk and can’t consent to sex” Which is EXACTLY the same shit that rape apologists have been spewing.
If your potential sex partner is impaired, they cannot give consent. PERIOD. Doesn’t matter if it was “just a few drinks”, doesn’t matter if it is husband and wife, doesn’t matter if consent was given beforehand.
And if you aren’t sure if your partner is impaired? THEN DON”T HAVE SEX!
This isn’t fucking rocket science.
Young live? That should be love. Urgh.
The real question they are headed toward is, if they purposely ply a woman with alcohol, or predatorily hide her alcohol consumption by constantly “topping the drink off, or spike her drinks, etc., is it rape? You betcha, it is.
I’m not disagreeing, MM. Juliet’s youth is made much of. The fact that Juliet was a legal adult (i.e. of marriage-and-consummation age – “marriage age” could be much younger) is the point. As much as an upper-class Veronan woman was an “adult” in anything approaching the modern sense at any stage in her life, of course.
The woman who is “marr’d” in Capulet’s opinion by being married too young is Lady Capulet, i.e. Juliet’s mother. Who comments on the topic of Juliet’s youth that when she was Juliet’s age (14) she was already very much Juliet’s mother.
IIRC, the Montagues are generally depicted as being closer in age, though then again the text doesn’t say so directly either way.
I saw an analysis that commented that if Romeo had gone to Capulet and said, “Hey, so, this rivalry between our families is getting old. Let me marry your daughter, and it’ll all be bygones,” then Capulet probably would have jumped at the chance (with the Prince’s wholehearted approval and blessing, no doubt). Such “seal the breach” marriages were commonplace in that time period.
Romeo and Juliet would have been seen its own time period as a tragedy based on impetuousness and teenagers letting their emotions run away with them.
When I have said otherwise? You haven’t demonstrated that, just presupposed that. Get you bee out of your bonnet. Hushfile for the illiterate non-thinking asshat.
Esteleth
Agreed. Absolutely not a romantic ideal. And sure as hell not an illustration of how teenagers should be in relationships with adults.
Nerd @133,
Do you even read what you write? You are one who stated, and I quote “For driving purposes drunk is 0.8%, which for most people would mean they are able to give consent.” That’s the exact argument a rape apologist would make. “Oh sure, she was legally drunk, but she could still consent. How do I know that? Magic!”
But I’m the illiterate, non-thinking asshat. Because I dared to criticize you for the stupid, rape apologist statement.
Anyone know who Doug Hudson is? (My memory for people’s names is never great at the best of times.)
Oh for fucks sake, Nerd of Redhead gets to say that legally drunk people can consent to sex, but I get moderated for calling him out?
Jesus wept.
I don’t know if I’ve gotten myself banned or not, but in case I haven’t, I do want to say that I’m sorry for being rude to Nerd of Redhead. Reading the Elyse post shook me up worse than I realized, and my posts in this thread were intemperate.
I still stand by my first post, but I should not have pursued it any further.
Mods, please delete my previous post, it was REALLY inappropriate.
Okay, we need to revise the CCC, to include something about (fully) informed consent. Help and suggestions wanted! We’ll keep the discussion here, for convenience.
Doug:
That won’t happen, but don’t worry about it. No one has been banned, everyone was caught in moderation across FTB. Der tech peoples are working on it. With apologies in place, everyone please say okay, take a deep breath and move on. This is a tough subject, for us all.
That shows you weren’t listen at two levels. First, one can be legally drunk (over the 0.8% limit), but still give enthusiastic consent to marriage sex as long as as both people are able to do so. It isn’t hard to determine. Second, I differentiated marriage sex where both have drank without the intent of controlling the other person, from stranger/date sex, especially where one person is manipulating the alcohol intake of the second for controlling purposes.
As you said, it isn’t rocket science.
Nerd @141, Since I was not banned for my intemperence, let me apologize to you directly for calling you a rape apologist. That was way over the line, and I can only say I’m sorry for letting my anger over a different post blur into my posts to you.
I do still think that we, as a society, need to be very careful about how we frame consent between partners, because of the prevalence of partner violence, but my point was lost in my anger.
On a different note, thanks for the understanding, Caine. I kinda lost it when I saw the moderation message, but when I calmed down I realized my mistake.
By the way, a decimal point has been lost above. Legally drunk is blood alcohol content above 0.08%.
It’s not clear from the chart at Wikipedia whether it’s possible to be alive at 0.8%: the highest number listed is >0.50, with “high risk of poisoning; possibility of death.” But it’s pretty clear that such a person would be unconscious.
[Noting this here because erroneous numbers, if not caught, tend to propagate, and this is a health-related one as well as one with legal import.]
Don’t worry. The Redhead has ways of communicating things that may seem imperceptible to a bystander, but I understand clearly. Typical of us old married folks. For example, in the “drunk” example, the woman may use a hug before putting on the nightgown to test for possible sex. Returning the hug with a kiss is saying “let’s do it”. This does indicate enthusiastic consent on both ends, even after a few drinks.
Nerd, I think there still needs to be a great deal of concern about consent within the confines of a relationship, because rape does happen in said confines, all the time. It can happen whether you’ve been dating for two weeks, or been married for 34 years, like myself. It’s fair to note that in good relationships, where partners are very familiar with one another, and concerned for one another, such issues are easy to deal with, however, not all relationships are like that, so yes, it’s still a concern, on a societal scale.
Caine, you’ve said in a few words what I failed to express in multiple posts. Thank you.
Nerd of Redhead, I was not discussing your specific relationship; I respect your personal, reported experience.
I’m not saying otherwise. I don’t say anything other than mutual enthusiastic consent is required. Just that (using hyperbole) for a one-night-stand a signed-in-triplicate and notarized statement is enthusiastic consent. After being married, there are less formal ways of showing mutual and enthusiastic consent, even while being officially drunk, and meaning it.
But I also acknowledge there are more ways to abuse that concept even without alcohol involved. Which is why enthusiastic consent is still the standard. We only differ in how that enthusiastic consent is expressed from the sounds of things.
Oh, and the words “if you must”, IS NOT ENTHUSIASTIC CONSENT”.
Let me tell a little story that might help elucidate what people are talking about when it comes to drunkenness and consent.
I was about 23 years old and gave my number to a woman at a bar who asked me for it. The next day she called me and asked me out on a date. I of course accepted as she was very attractive and we had hit it off the night before.
I took her to a nice dinner where we shared a bottle of wine. Afterwards we went to a bar where she continued drinking but I stopped because I was driving. She had 3 more drinks, then offered me ecstasy which I declined, but took some herself.
At some point she asked to go back to my place. I agreed, we continued drinking there, and dancing, and making out, things were getting pretty hot and heavy. She was the aggressor throughout, I had little doubt about her willingness to have sex, but at some point I realized she was trashed.
Her speech was slurred, she was wobbling to and fro, so I stopped. She wasn’t happy about it, but after I convinced her it wouldn’t be a good idea, I gave her a blanket and led her to the couch. The next morning I drove her home and that was the last we ever spoke.
There wasn’t a definitive moment where I knew we were getting in to date rape territory. By all accounts she was enthusiastically consenting, but to me it didn’t matter, she had passed the point of being able to continue to consent.
I’d never had any formal education about consent, I just knew that having sex with a super drunk woman was a creepy thing to do, especially when I was sober enough to notice how drunk she was. The word “consent” never occurred to me but my gut feeling was that she, or I, or both of us would regret it in the morning if we continued.
She didn’t remember the next morning exactly what had happened, but I was happy to inform her that nothing beyond making out and some petting had occurred. I told her to call me and we could go out again, but she never did.
I’ve had some great buzzed sex when it was clear that both parties were in control of themselves. You can’t put a number on it, .08 or any other number, but a decent person who gives a damn about the person they are with knows when it’s time to put on the breaks. It’s not difficult.
I knew this as a young man and no one had to teach me or lecture me, so when I see these creeps in here trying to analyze some gray area, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt they are trying to justify their own amoral behavior and history of date rape. I know this because I have always known instinctively where to draw the line, so I’ve never had to worry about being accused of being a rapist, because I’m a decent fucking person who doesn’t put my sexual needs before the wishes or right to bodily autonomy of my potential partner.
I’m always looking for signs that my partner isn’t feeling it, or isn’t 100% on board with where a physical interaction is going. Many times I have stopped and said “Are you sure you’re comfortable with this? If you aren’t I have no problem stopping” Sometimes they say yes, and sometimes they say no, and sometimes, they just hesitate long enough for me to know the answer is “No but I’m not comfortable saying so” for any number of reasons.
This is not rocket science. If you think it’s complicated, then you really need to do some deep soul searching about what kind of person you think you are, versus the type of person you actually are.
erikthebassist @ 149, could you please share that story in this thread: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/30/stunned-silence/comment-page-1/#comment-681185 ?
There are reasons:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/30/stunned-silence/comment-page-1/#comment-681157
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/30/stunned-silence/comment-page-1/#comment-681158
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/30/stunned-silence/comment-page-1/#comment-681164
Yeah of course Caine. Seems like it should have been posted there to begin with, unfortunately I wasn’t up to speed on that thread when I posted here.
Thanks, Erik. I really appreciate it. That thread is *not* easy reading.
My hat’s off to the courageous people pouring their hearts in these threads. I can’t take it. I have never been raped, I don’t know of any case of rape in my immediate circle, but the mere thought makes me disgusted, and the sight of these ignorant posts makes my blood boil.
I can’t fathom how lacking in empathy people have to be to not feel angry at the bullshit, or outraged at the immense amount of suffering that we allow to happen day after day.
I guess “civilization” is just a sick joke after all. A culture that does this to people can’t call itself civilized. The sooner we stop congratulating ourselves for the toys we build and the stories we tell, and start working to not behave to each other like territorial monkeys, the better. Maybe then we can say we finally left the fucking caves.
I was just thinking it might be a worthwhile project to formalize a summary of that and get it published in a prominent place somewhere for easy reference.
maybe have a few folks get together and gather up accepted consent rules from other places as well?
would be decent review project IMO, and a valuable reference besides. Could even turn it into a decent paper for publication in a sociology journal?
Ichthyic, CCC was hammered out in this thread: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/22/if-dr-phil-is-a-fraudulent-hack-is-it-ok-to-respect-his-opinions/comment-page-1/#comment-677030 – starting with comment # 210. A lot of us worked on it.
It is up at the Pharyngula wiki, but I also posted it to one of my blogs, and if you want to pass it on, please do. I’d love to see this get a wider audience.