I’m dyin’ here, people. It’s like people trust me or something.
So I’ve been given this rather…explosive…information. It’s a direct report of unethical behavior by a big name in the skeptical community (yeah, like that hasn’t been happening a lot lately), and it’s straight from the victim’s mouth. And it’s bad. Really bad.
She’s torn up about it. It’s been a few years, so no law agency is going to do anything about it now; she reported it to an organization at the time, and it was dismissed. Swept under the rug. Ignored. I can imagine her sense of futility. She’s also afraid that the person who assaulted her before could try to hurt her again.
But at the same time, she doesn’t want this to happen to anyone else, so she’d like to get the word out there. So she hands the information to me. Oh, thanks.
Now I’ve been sitting here trying to resolve my dilemma — to reveal it or not — and goddamn it, what’s dominating my head isn’t the consequences, but the question of what is the right thing to do. Do I stand up for the one who has no recourse, no way out, no other option to help others, or do I shelter the powerful big name guy from an accusation I can’t personally vouch for, except to say that I know the author, and that she’s not trying to acquire notoriety (she wants her name kept out of it)?
I’ve got to do what I’ve got to do, I can do no other. I will again emphasize, though, that I have no personal, direct evidence that the event occurred as described; all I can say is that the author is known to me, and she has also been vouched for by one other person I trust. The author is not threatening her putative assailant with any action, but is solely concerned that other women be aware of his behavior. The only reason she has given me this information is that she has no other way to act.
With that, I cast this grenade away from me…
At a conference, Mr. Shermer coerced me into a position where I could not consent, and then had sex with me. I can’t give more details than that, as it would reveal my identity, and I am very scared that he will come after me in some way. But I wanted to share this story in case it helps anyone else ward off a similar situation from happening. I reached out to one organization that was involved in the event at which I was raped, and they refused to take my concerns seriously. Ever since, I’ve heard stories about him doing things (5 different people have directly told me they did the same to them) and wanted to just say something and warn people, and I didn’t know how. I hope this protects someone.
Boom.
Further corroboration: a witness has come forward. This person has asked to remain anonymous too, but I will say they’re someone who doesn’t particularly like me — so no accusations of fannishness, OK?
The anonymous woman who wrote to you is known to me, and in fact I was in her presence immediately after said incident (she was extremely distraught), and when she told the management of the conference (some time later).
Women are still writing into me with their personal stories. This one isn’t so awful, but it’s mainly illustrative of his tactics…there’s nothing here that would form the basis of any kind of serious complaint, but most importantly, I think, it tells you exactly what kind of behavior to watch out for with him.
Michael Shermer was the guest of honor at an atheist event I attended in Fall 2006; I was on the Board of the group who hosted it. It’s a very short story: I got my book signed, then at the post-speech party, Shermer chatted with me at great length while refilling my wine glass repeatedly. I lost count of how many drinks I had. He was flirting with me and I am non-confrontational and unwilling to be rude, so I just laughed it off. He made sure my wine glass stayed full.
And that’s the entirety of my story: Michael Shermer helped get me drunker than I normally get, and was a bit flirty. I can’t recall the details because I was intoxicated. I don’t remember how I left, but I am told that a friend took me away from the situation and home from the party. Note, I’d never gotten drunk at any atheist event before; I was humiliated by having gotten so drunk and even more ashamed that my friends had to cart me off before anything happened to me.
But I had a bad taste in my mouth about Shermer’s flirtatiousness, because I’m married, and I thought he was kind of a pig. I didn’t even keep his signed book, I didn’t want it near me.
Over the years as rumors have flown about atheist women warning each other about a lecherous author/speaker, I thought of all the authors and speakers I had met during my time as an atheist activist, and I guessed that Shermer was the one being warned against.
Now there are tweets and blogs about his sexually inappropriate behavior as well as his fondness for getting chicks drunk, so I feel quite less alone. I don’t think he realizes he is doing anything wrong. Men who behave inappropriately sexually never think they are doing anything wrong.
I have mixed feelings about your grenade-dropping. I have heard arguments both for and against what you did. Whether or not I agree with it, I just want to say that the accusations against Shermer match up with my personal experience with him, insofar as he seemed hellbent on helping me get drunk, and was very flirty with me. Take it for what you will. I believe the accusers.
missed natural philosopher
actually i was hoping you could tell me more options because i must have missed some, care to?
@ 1063
I would just like to point out that, in the state I live in (Washington, USA), drunk sex IS rape. Legal definition. This isn’t just an “extremist blogosphere bubble” position but the actual law where I live.
But *nigel*, you didn’t *agree* with bob. How can you say you were engaging him if you kept disagreeing?
Clearly you have no *idea* how to be a serious person.
naturalphilosopher –
No, you’re still exactly wrong.
The consequences of believing these specific women/being wrong in attaching Shermer’s name publicly to rumors of his sexual misconduct which had previously circulated only through fortunate backchannels are what? An innocent Shermer gets maybe a little emotionally upset, embarrassed maybe even horrified about being named as something he would never ever be. Okay, got it, sad for him. Oh, and don’t forget, he might gain from it, too, in our perverse celebrity-seeking culture, he might make a fortune from new speaking engagements, new followers for his blog, whatever …
The consequences of not believing these specific women/ being wrong by refusing to use your public position to name Shermer and thereby warn other women are what? Dozens of innocent women, not getting the public warning, get raped by Shermer, maybe impregnated, maybe infected with an incurable STI, maybe end up suicidal and certainly get a lifetime of PTSD.
Those are all real things, that are, ya know, real. Real world choices have real world consequences.
Anyone who can’t tell the difference between real things and an argument for believing in god because the other consequence is hell doesn’t deserve the name of “philosopher”.
Thinking. You’re doing it wrong.
+1 to Caine and others who have been tirelessly slogging it out in the comments.
Despite being a 99% lurker on Pharyngula I should like to offer my thanks/verbal support, for what it’s worth, to Jane Doe, to the corroborating person, and of course to PZ.
I haven’t been able to help with the flood of jerks as this is riding the limit of what I can deal with but I do want to thank Caine and Nigel and those of you beating back the flood. I wish I had the words.
Pete Newell:
A clear sign you win a plastic imitation internet, and are in the final drawing for the real gold-plated internet: I just snorted beer out my nose thanks to you.
That is one of the highest compliments I can give. I don’t waste beer easily, especially in such a painful manner.
Oh and Pete – you rock!
So I am here late of course, but have been following the thread all day:
To the Horde, and Caine in particular, but Carlie, Jalafa, etc. I just wanted to say thanks. I started reading here a few years back, and was a wishy washy moderate sort of fellow. You’ve made me into an ardent feminist and about that I have no problems. I can’t say what it’s done, but every donation and moment I’ve volunteered with Planned Parenthood, Emily’s List, Bowling for Abortion Funds, and even the NAACP and trans-rights organizations is directly due to you. Every conversation I’ve had with people explaining rape culture, the wrongs of gendered slurs and the bullshit that is slut-shaming is thanks to you. I’m in the sciences and have some slight power in my department, and use that to make sure science is open for women and minorities as it was for me. That’s definitely thanks to you all.
To PZ, everything I said before goes for you too, since you provided this incredible space, and as I admire the courage of the Horde, I also admire your courage and fortitude. It would be easy for you to stay out of this, but you provide a role model for white straight dudes like myself to be willing to bear the slightest bit of the flames that are hurled at women, minorities, etc. and I hope I’ve become more willing to do the same thanks to you.
To the people in this thread going on and on about absurd hypotheticals and the majesty of the law, please shut the fuck up. (And listen! But mostly shut the fuck up.) This isn’t an issue involving the law. Obviously a crime was committed, but this never ending concern about punishing the perpetrator is fucking inane and harmful. Frankly, I don’t give a fuck about Michael Shermer. I don’t really care if he lives the rest of his life in paradise or if he lives in abject poverty.
What I care about is that more women aren’t victimized by Michael, and that women are given the information they need to stay safe from this predator. And that means knowing he’s a predator.
What’s more, bluntly, the only people who have ever concocted elaborate myths and lies to frame their enemies have been the slymepit. I assume PZ and the rest of the Horde and those he trusts would never, ever use rape as a mere rhetorical weapon to hurt their enemies, and will assume that until proven otherwise. I assume that a woman claiming she is the victim of rape is telling the truth until it is established otherwise. So fuck you if you are trying to concoct elaborate fantasises to protect your precious Shermer. And fuck you if you are hurting rape victims to do so.
Actually just fuck you.
How does one put this: I shall blush.
I don’t say this easily, either: I hope it was American beer. And that your next one isn’t.
1509. zhuge, le homme blanc qui ne sait rien mais voudrait
Word.
@natural philosopher
eh nvm, you might be saying something different. i still think the whole “it won’t make a difference” thing is both unsupported and ignorant of the OP stated purpose, which is obvious in its utility.
1509. That.
I’ve tried to formulate a response to this news several times today and haven’t managed anything coherent or worthwhile, so all I will say is: Jane Doe, I believe you, too. Caine et al, thank you for proving there’s some sanity left in the world. Please don’t ever give up fighting the good fight.
Fuck, forgot: PZ, thank you for giving this what exposure you can.
Technically, yes, it’s American. It was a Great Lakes Silver & Gold IPL, a limited edition India pale lager (which I hope becomes a seasonal — it’s delicious). My next shall probably also be American — a Victory HopDevil ale.
No need for blushing. I’m just glad you’re out of the Pharyngula closet. We need folks like you.
eiginperson,
Ah, but the misogynists have already explained to us how we owe them our attention. Block bots, thread moderation and staying away from the crapfest that is YouTube comments, etc. is infringing on their free speech. Women don’t just owe men our bodies in rape culture. We owe our time, our smiles, our trust, sometimes cookies and always the right to call us cunts. They really think that is their right and to deny it to them is wrong. (We have to at least discuss both sides civilly. RIGHT?) So, it doesn’t surprise me when the people who agree with them on so many things also think a man is owed female attention and access for being such an important, special, awesome dude. It doesn’t surprise me that his access to women is his right, while their safety is not theirs. It’s almost as if their is some sort of patriarchy influencing their views.
Also, zhuge: I’m adding my love to the rest. Thanks.
Then you haven’t been listening and learning, but preaching and pontificating. Not what is expected from your ‘nym. But not out of line what we expect from a ‘nym like yours. Not what you claim with you ‘nym by a long shot. Usually the opposite..
nigelThe Bold@1516
Technically, what we need is *fewer* people like Shermer and Ratford and Bealls and Grothe and Dawkins and Cheney and Strauss-Kahn and Bill Nye (Bill Nye! How *could* you? Asshole!) and the list goes on.
And on.
And so *many* people are so determined to put themselves on it. I don’t get it.
@hotshoe:
First of all, let me plainly state that I am 1) A feminist and completely in favor of these accusations being given their proper weight and 2) most certainly not a fan of Shermer.
Having said that, based only on the validity of your arguments, you are doing a piss-poor job of defending your side.
You try to dismiss Martin Wagner’s completely accurate comparison of Pascal’s Wager by saying that the most and innocent Shermer can suffer is some mild discomfort, while on the other extreme just stopping short of claiming ignoring the victim will directly lead to her suicide. That is, to put it midly, complete BS.
Or are you really sheltered enough to think that being falsely accused has no real world consecuences, even if later found innocent? We have seen time and time again that people who go through a false accusation of htis magnitude can suffer great personal and profesional loss. And if you’re going to bring suicidal thoughts on one end, dismissing the possibility of the same as a result of a real shunning of an innocent man, is just hypocritical.
So, let me reiterate, I am not saying we should err on the side of assuming the accusations are false, far from it. But I have to agree with Martin that using an argument as flawed and falacious as the one you are defending does a great disservice to those that agree with you. Because nothing harms a reasonable position more than having it defended by bad arguments. Especially such blatantly bad ones.
I sincerely hope you can put wether you’re right or not, r at least, what’s best for the side you’re defending, above your own ego, and won’t try to dismiss this with cute little phrases at the end that, really, mostly apply to yourself in this specific instance.
Naturalphilospher:
I don’t have much to argue with except this:
There is a difference. But PZ is in a position where any number of his readers, aside from friends and colleagues, are potential victims.
There is only so much backchannel warnings one can do. And the rest of us, most of us actually, won’t hear any of it. We will be left to learn the hard way.
Then you don’t think the comparison to pascal’s wager is completely accurate.
@Pete Newell
Bill Nye? What happened there? How did I miss this?
Examples please? Not being facetious, but Mike Tyson, Dominique Strauss-Kahn and Roman Polanski (to name a few) seem to be doing ok?
#1520 alvaroibanez:
I partly agree with what you’re saying. In my opinion, the argument we should be making is that we ought to believe the victim’s testimony because it’s very likely to be true.
But I think you are seriously overestimating the likelihood that Shermer faces consequences. Especially in the near term. Just look at how many priests were not affected in the slightest by the accusations that they abused children.
The equivocation between believing claims of rape and Palscal’s wager is mindshatteringly infuriating.
One claims that we should believe in something that not only do we have no evidence for, but we have no evidence for anything like it. The other is claiming that we should believe that something that happens all too often did happen again. One requires a extremely high threshold of evidence to believe, the other doesn’t.
Pete Newell@1519:
Truth.
But for every Shermer, and Ratford, and even Nye (fuck, who’s next? hopefully nobody named Neil or Neal), there’s a thousand or more folks like bobchaos, who I think really are good folks at heart, but haven’t started the self-education that’s required to understand the extent of privilege, and rape culture, and inherent bias, and all the myriad things I still struggle with. It’s folks like us who help folks like zhuge. It’s folks like us (or at least, folks like me) who used to be like zhuge reports — “I started reading here a few years back, and was a wishy washy moderate sort of fellow. You’ve made me into an ardent feminist and about that I have no problems.”
And I think if we’re going to change the social order, we’re doing it the hard way: one person at a time.
Sure, we could do with fewer Shermers. But it’s these other folks that provide the Shermers of the world the cover the need to operate. And in the case of bobchaos, I don’t think they even realize that’s what they’re doing.
I want to thank Caine, Janine, Anthony K, Nigel, Nerd, and all the rest of the Horde for their efforts to explain reality to MRAs and rape apologists like bobchaos23, naturalphilosopher, and that ilk.
Thank you to Anonymous for having the courage to tell about Shermer and to PZ for passing the word to the rest of us.
Did nobody else catch what caine said upthread? Why are we still discussing Pascal’s wager with the assholes?
alvaroibanez, why are you here? This thread is to support someone who was incredibly brave in coming forward into a broken system to try to protect other potential victims. Are we almost done with the “look how clever and pompous *I* am” fucking wankery, yet?
Find a venue where people care about your bullshit opinions about derailing minutia where you might have a point. This is not it.
I am not seriously engaging you. I’m just asking you to fucking stop, and not wasting a lot of patience on someone who can’t be bothered to figure out the context and substance of the discussion.
See also: “I’m not a supporter of X but” = you’re doing it wrong. Try again when you feel like being helpful more than you feel like being pedantic.
@Jacob 1522
No, I don’t think it’s COMPLETELY comparate in that the conclusion is wrong. I do think it’s VERY accurate in that the reasoning is 100% wrong.
If you said that you beleive there are no Gods because the faeries in your garden assured you that this is the case, while I wouldn’t disagree with the statement COMPLETELY, seeing how I agree there are no Gods, I would definitely find your reason to believe this to be completely falacious, wrong, and I would certainly preferr you’d stop using it because it makes those of us who reject the God-claim for good reasons look terrible.
Just like I think that using this Pascal-like argument is a terrible, even harmful way of presenting a position I agree with, and I’ preferr people didn’t use such a bad argument to argue for the side I agree with.
FASCIST LEFTISTS!!
LEFTIST FASCISTS!!!
tee hee
This may or may not be the right thing to do. But we should take care to understand that this may be the time someone loses things because they are falsely accused. I agree with getting scumbags, but remember that it does matter if this didn’t happen.
Yes, bobchaos and naturalphilosopher, I’m calling you MRAs and rape apologists. Your hyperskepticism and point-blank refusal to accept Anonymous’s word that she was raped show this. I was particularly unimpressed by bobchaos’s “I’m not an MRA but….” argument.
ugfabian, just out of interest, have you read any other comments in this thread?
ugfabian:
Then now is the time to declare:
Do you believe the story of the victim? Or do you disbelieve the story of the victim?
Also, do you want women to be forewarned of potential rapists?
I’ve been waiting for this or something like it.
Anonymous, I really hope you’re surrounded by good people who are giving you whatever support you may need. You have my deepest empathy.
Oh for fuck’s sake. Once again: there is no evidence hell exists, there is plenty of evidence that rape exists. The two arguments are not equivalent.
Also, this is not about harm to the victim in the OP, it’s about potential harm to further victims should the claim be true. You know, the whole point of this woman coming forward in the first place.
Yes, Shermer could be harmed should this accusation turn out to be false. But Shermer has power, prestige and money. Those things demonstrably help shield one from harm. so the scope of harm possible to him is lesser than that of his potential future victims. And note that little ‘s’ there. If this accusation is true and it was kept under wraps then multiple victims are certainly possible. There is only one possible victim should this be a false accusation.
The guiding principle of acting to minimise the potential harm clearly points to believing the accuser in this case. Conflating that with Pascal’s Wager is just a red herring.
bobchaos:
I’m still waiting for the evidence in support of your accusation that we have called for punishment for Shermer. I’m hoping you’re not dismissing it because it doesn’t address your posts.
yeah he might lose some sex he might have had if women had not been scared of him. how sad for him. every boner is an emergency, after all.
and he might lose some respect from strangers. imagine that, a man without respect. I mean as a woman I am used to not having any respect, but I can’t imagine how horrible it would be to have it and then *poof* its gone one day (except from all the doubters and mras and people who just don’t give a shit anymore).
wow when you put it that way I can see why it should be at the top of my list of concerns
(sarcasm, of course)
@1525 eigenperson
I think you missunderstand me. I’m not saying I think it’s likely that Shermer will face severe inmedite consecuences. I’m saying that , if you’re going to go into an analysis of the consecuences for either a false positive or a false negative, you really should actualyl consider the consecuences for both, even for the one you aren’t on the side of.
Again, I’m not sayying that we shouldn’t beleive the accusation. I’m saying that we shouldn’t use such a bad argument to justify why we should believe it.
@1526 Kevin Shelley
The equivocation with Pascal wager’s has NOTHING to do with the likelyhood of the claims. It has to do with the fact that presenting the posible consequences for beleiving in a position as a reason to believe said position, instead of arguments for wether the position is true, is a TERRIBLE way to argue for something.
ugfabian:
Oh gods. This thread is four fucking pages long. Shut up, go to page 1, start with comment #1, and don’t write another fucking word until you have read every comment. No one needs your precious waffling about.
Jesus fucking Christ, would someone please take away the script these asses are all reading from? Please?
I’ve heard about sober sex. What’s it like?
Wow. It took me all day, but I’ve read every comment.
Jane Doe, thank you so much for your courage in coming forward, especially knowing the risk that you might be eventually identified despite your wish to remain anonymous. I believe you. I support you, and will continue to support you in whatever way I can should you ever decide to reveal your identity.
PZ Thanks for being trustworthy and providing Jane Doe with a forum and a megaphone, despite whatever costs you may personally incur.
To all the Horde, too many to name (but I gotta single out Caine for sheer awesomeness in the face of assholitude–I think there’s a medal for that): I love you people. You give me hope. Hugs and chocolate and beer to all who want ’em.
And finally, to all the hyperskeptics who won’t believe someone’s account of rape unless it’s been first “proven” in a court of law: read this[TW: rape, police dismissal of complaint, harassment, suicide] and then fuck off. To all the moaners and wailers who can’t abide a public warning about some Big Name Rapist because his pedestal might get a little tarnished: fuck you. And to the amateur philosophers who wanna play “is this rape? is it now?” as though this is an intellectual exercise rather than stuff people actually live through: Informed, enthusiastic, ongoing, unimpaired CONSENT; if that’s not the standard you’re accustomed to, that’s a problem with the culture and with you, not with those defining anything else as rape.
Also vis-a-vis all the “how much drinking until it’s rape” etc.:
It’s a fucking Sorieties paradox like “WHY NOT HAVE VOTING AGE AT 17 AND 364 DAYS”. Because of course any cutoff ignores the vagaries and realities of life. And sure if people were getting arrested and put in jail for 50 years for being .01 over the BAC for being able to consent regardless of what the partner said, then duh it would be a problem.
But holy shit! This never actually fucking happens. We just have people derailing discussions of actual rape of actual people to engage in philosophic nonsense. Because rape isn’t some metaphysical category, it’s a rough delineation of human experience describing something awful.
So sure, you can go around trying to navigate some perfect a priori ethereal definition of rape, but you’re an ass for making that a sine-qua-non of our actual discussions. Because the reality is, if someone is really drunk and hits on you and you sleep with them knowing that this isn’t something that would be done sober, you’re still causing harm and hurting someone to get your own pleasure. So whether or not you fit in some metaphysical category of rapist, you’re still an insensitive, cruel, selfish, greedy all around shitty person. So if that’s the argument you want to make: “I’m a really shitty asshole, but I’m not a rapist…” Go right the fuck ahead. But while you’re at it, go fuck yourself. Because rape is real and hurts people and you’re more concerned with your own self-image and intellectual nonsense than with the people who are hurt, who suffer in life and even commit suicide. And that, on its own, makes you an exceptionally shitty motherfucker.
alvaroibanez:
Yeah, we got it, you’ve parroted it enough. NOW KNOCK IT THE FUCK OFF. Find something else to discuss, stat, else you will be derailing this thread, and I’m feeling plenty vicious enough to send an alert. Christ.
look if this claim was at all believable we would have people saying that Shermer should be looked out for and warning women at conferences and shit.
I haven’t read the rest of the thread so I’m forced to assume nothing like that has happened and everything turned out for the best
@scooterskutre:
Thanks for linking your nym to your facebook.
It makes it easier to warn women to avoid you at all costs, you creepy freak.
Oh boy. Go away for 6 or 7 hours and the thread not only doesn’t slow down, we get some additional information. I’m certain more corroboration will be enough to satisfy the hyperskeptics, right?
(Do I go back and read the last 500 or so comments…what to do…)
Ibis3:
*Clenched Tentacle Salute*
alvaroibanez, people did consider the consequences of a false positive. They just don’t think they are as serious as you seem to think. And in my view, they are right. (And/or they think the consequences of a false negative are more serious than you think.)
Either way, the consequences should not determine what you believe. Even if the consequences of a false positive were very serious, I would still believe this accusation, because I think it’s likely to be true. Ultimately, Pascal’s Wager has no force because, even if you believe in a lie for the sake of the consequences, it’s still a lie. And the argument that says we should believe everything is A-OK because Shermer would (supposedly) suffer unspeakable damage otherwise fails for the same reason.
…and yeah, I’m still here.
Why?
Because I’m through with you asswipes thinking you can chase victims away from reporting or standing up to your shit.
I’m fucking mad as hell and I want you to know that you’re not doing this shit in a vacuum. You’re being assholes for the sake of being assholes. You know it… AND SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE.
scooterskutre, your routine is not welcome in this thread. Go play shock jock elsewhere.
Tony:
No, don’t. You’ll give yourself a migraine screaming at the continual rain of assholes.
Ah. We;re back.
nigelTheBold@1519 (Sorry if Avo feels left out. Long handles are long. Pete is tired.)
You’re a patient man. If bob is actually well meaning, he’s going to have to learn to fucking listen even when he doesn’t like what he’s hearing. I am sick to the death of dealing with aggressive stupid that doesn’t want to know better.
Honestly, I can’t tell about (let’s be charitable for a moment) young bob. His performance here has not been promising, but it’s hard to tell young and fired up from actually a dick on the interwebz. Sadly, in application it sometimes works out to the same thing, witness the wonderful accomplishments of setec here today.
Again, assuming not actually a dick, which I just can’t tell. The shoe seems to fit, but I’m not a cobbler.
Me, I had to learn how not to be a bully from my teen-age daughters. That’s always a heartening thing to realize.
alvaroibanez@1523, Bill Nye the fucking science guy turned up on the name and shame tumblr as a repeated butt-patter, and again in a woman’s list of do-not-invite-these-sleazy-men-to-speak-at any-conference-I-run.
Please tell me I’m wrong about your pedantry, and knock off the noise. I’d really like to be wrong about somebody today.
oh look, someone at the JREF says they either know this woman or another woman with a remarkably similar experience:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=9417319#post9417319
sounds like a 3rd person to verify a claim of rape by michael shermer. doubters should probably STFU forever.
Scooterskutre:
That was your contribution?
Given the discussion at hand, with Jane Doe having been raped by Shermer (and yes, I fucking well believe her) after he got her drunk, your comment is out of line.
I only brought it up because people commonly refer to claims of rape as a he said she said thing (as in its impossible to determine the truth). They often feel that not believing a woman is the most neutral position, that they aren’t taking a side, when in fact it does a damn lot of harm. I think even if there is no way to determine who is telling the truth you could, at a minimum, be interested in using your opinion to reduce the harm done to victims of rape. Its a matter of practicality, not of determining the truth.
skeptifem@1556
Should is a nice word. Means “won’t” but builds in the guilt. Very Christian word.
No slap at you, just tired and cynical.
@Pete
Fuck you.
I never used the word should. ??
Why is it that we assume that the rape victim is lying? I don’t think it’s cute that so many people are talking about how a rape victim is making up stories. It is fundamentally sexist to suggest that women lie about rape. I get the stupid male side of the argument that suggest women on lying. I think that the skeptical community trusts the word of women. If they don’t….fuck them. I mean it. We have spent too much time throughout time throughout history fighting about this matter. I think it is beyond the time we take women’s claims seriously. I know that the rush of sexual abuse claims seems superfluously. It’s not. The fact is that women have been scared, and rightly so, to makes these claims. Women relationships are the most important thing of all. don’t all you super skeptics want to fall in love with a women who is honest. Love is more important than anything. And if you all believe that then it is important that you recognize problems actually problems. Let’s give women the priority this time. Us men have had the advantage for too long. If men can’t deal with these than we are too weak to deal with reality. Rise above the cultural situation. Be there for the women you love. That’s the most important thing.
#1558 skeptifem: Yeah, I guess I see that. It’s just in this case I’m pretty damn confident in the accusation.
In some other case where I was somehow really 50/50 as to whether I should believe an accusation, then I suppose I would have to act at least temporarily as though I believed it, because of the potential consequences, despite being unsure.
What a waste of time ” hearsay” can be . Go away Sleezy Myers and sell that snake oil to another community.
You SHOULD never use the word SHOULD
Because ethics is quite moralizing and morals are just as bad as right wing religion because we’re all children who want to put our cocks in anything!
Hey peter? Start with a blender
Michael Shermer is no rapist. I look forward to him suing PZ Myers for libel.
skeptifem: Sorry. Reflexive snide. My bad. Posting slower.
Ing: Thanks, man. You have a great night yourself. Have we met?
I still can’t get over how so few people understand how libel works.
@Linda
Come at me bro!
So you have absolute evidence that he’s not a rapist right Linda? Right right?
Please seduce a cactus
Your mother
I’m going to stand up for “should” here. The alternative is staying stuck in “is” which, at the present moment, is a sucky place to be.
/professional ethicist
Fucking hell alvariobanez, stop conflating belief and knowledge. Minimisation of potential harm is a perfectly rational way to choose a belief in the absence of unequivocal evidence. And let’s be clear here: we have evidence in the form of Jane Doe’s statements and the corroboration that PZ has now received so your wanking on about this is moot.
Please seduce a cactus
Ahahaha, god I love this bit. Thanks for the smile, Ing.
Aren’t you the charmer.
Anything to actually *say*, here, or did you just want to use the new words you learned like you’ve heard all the big big people doing?
Will Clemens:
Wow. You’re seriously backwards, aren’t you? +++++ (plus signs courtesy of Agnes, pardon) Here’s a thought, Will, get the fuck out of our community.
Ing, give Pete a break, please. He’s newly out of the Pharyngula closet and he’s been steadily fighting the good fight.
yeah we talked a lot about should/ought in my ethics class. Its impossible to make a claim for ethical behavior without it, basically.
Linda Rosa RN @1566:
And you know this HOW exactly? Are you with him 24/7, as his accountability team?
1402:
Didn’t do either. Sorry.
Didn’t mean to poke fingers in eyes. History?
Will Clemens, take your anti-feminist bullshit elsewhere
ooh, ooh, I know!
he is really good at sports!
no?
uh, he is an awesome movie director!!!
oh, wait, no?
uh, he says stuff linda likes!
talented men never rape.
Nice assertion. Any evidence to back up your attitude Slymepitter? I don’t think so….Typical.
Just had to transport your idiocy here, didn’t you? Fuck off, Linda Rosa. You don’t know any such thing about Shermer, and you know it. Confirmations keep coming in. As for libel? No, Cupcake. Shermer doesn’t have grounds for libel. This has been covered ad infinitum, which you’d know if you ever bothered to read anything. Also, if Shermer tried to sue, he’d have to prove he has never assaulted any woman, ever. So far, there’s nothing but quiet from that corner. Interesting, ennit?
Caine I belong to no group, I only fight for the only minority with out full state and federal rights which are LGBT’s
My impression is, rather, that one’s heroes get one (or maybe up to six) freebie sexual assaults before they’re held to account.
Having spent time I didn’t have reading almost 1600 comments, I’ll now spend more time I don’t have to add my own two cents.
I’ll add my voice to those of the people who make the most parsimonious and rational assumption that Jane Doe is telling the truth and say “Thank you for coming forward, Jane, even in the limited way that you feel you can, to try to keep others safe. This person deeply appreciates your having done that.”
I’ll add my voice to those thanking PZ for posting Jane’s statement, even though being presented with it put him in a total no-win situation.
I’ll add my voice to those thanking the Horde regulars for being staunch on the battlements in this thread and others like it, most especially Caine, considering what I’m sure it must cost her.
To those who say, “This is a matter for the law! You shouldn’t repeat such allegations based solely on personal testimony, because you could ruin someone’s reputation and the accusation could be false!”, I say: In a perfect world rape would never happen. In a bad world with good societal support and a good justice system, any rapes would be swiftly, impartially, and professionally investigated; alleged victims would be believed and treated sensitively and well, those guilty of rape would be swiftly convicted and receive their punishment no matter how powerful or rich or well-connected they were, and the rest of society would do their best to comfort and protect the victim (including teaching young people ethical and compassionate ways of approaching sex and aggression and power and finding other ways to prevent rapes from happening in the future). In that bad-but-good world I’d say, “Sure, call the cops!” (I keep flashing back to the Woody Woodpecker cartoon with the notorious repeated refrain, “If Woody had gone to the police, none of this would have happened.”) But we don’t live in the perfect world and we don’t live in the bad-but-good world. We live in a shitty world where the testimony and concerns and pain of rape victims are routinely trivialized by the authorities and the powerful (and sometimes the victims’ friends and family) even if people believe, or claim to believe, what the victims are saying; a world in which enforcement and prosecution of the law routinely degrades the victim further and in which 99% of the messages that the victim gets from society range from “You’re a liar!” to “You’re a slut!” to “This is sooooo awkward…” to “Why are you doing this to us?”; a world in which rapists routinely walk away scot-free from the most ironclad of cases and find ways to bring further harm to their accusers. If the alleged victim in this case did not feel that she could press charges at the time of the rape, especially after being brushed off by the conference organization, and if she still doesn’t feel secure enough to press charges or identify herself now, but wants to get a warning out to other women so that they don’t go through what she did, she is allowed to do that; I’m not going to twist the knife by second-guessing her.
I’ve heard a lot of braying about “evidence” on this thread. Could Jane Doe be lying? Sure, but PZ knows and believes her (and the person vouching for her); what evidence (not assertions!) can anyone present that he is a poor judge of character or of truthfulness? Could PZ be making this whole thing up? Sure, but why? Just to make Michael Shermer’s life miserable and steal a few engagements from him? What evidence (not assertions!) can anyone present that PZ is that callous and mercenary?
Let’s say that the hyperskeptics are right, this is all some kind of hack job, and Shermer didn’t do what he’s accused of. That would be a tragedy, and Shermer will suffer undeserved harm in the short term, but he’ll have the chance, by the way he responds to this, to convince people of his innocence and the quality of his character. He hasn’t been sued, fired, evicted, arrested, tried, or convicted; he most certainly hasn’t been “lynched.” He can, if he wants to and works at it, come back from this and rise above it and regain people’s trust, and PZ’s reputation will be dimmed rather than his.
But let’s say that, just maybe, just for the sake of argument, Jane Doe is telling the truth (which is, both experientially and scientifically, more probable). In that case, although Shermer should be in prison (and the fact that he isn’t is not Jane’s fault!), he’s a free man with a slate of upcoming convention appearances. However, because Jane has spoken up and PZ has posted her statement and con-goers are warned by it, maybe some other woman won’t get raped at a con. Which was the express purpose of the statement to begin with.
Neither the likelihood nor the consequences of these two outcomes are equivalent, and before people keep insisting that silence should have been kept, or protesting that the evidence is insufficient to accuse someone by name (do they think this is the Sexual Assault version of “Clue”?!), or tossing whatever other objections or derailers they want into the discussion (“but really, all I’ve been trying to say that it ain’t rape if you both willingly get drunk and then both willingly screw!”), they need to think hard about what they’re doing. (Which they won’t, but at least I’ve thrown another voice into the hopper for them to assiduously ignore.)
@Will Clemens You know groups overlap, right? You can wrap yourself in a rainbow flag just like any other flag and still be an asshole: that part’s gender inclusive.
1577:
Oh man. Whenever I hear “accountability team,” I think of that uber-scumbag Hugo Schwyzer, the self-styled “male feminist” who tried gassing an ex-girlfriend to death. He kept talking about his “accountability team” too, and I always thought it just meant “close friends and family who will keep telling me how awesome I am no matter what those mean people on the internet say.
Pete Newell:
Yeah, a fucktonne of threads exactly like this one, year after year after year after year after year. Lots of us have been having this same fucking discussion, over and over, for many years. We all get exhausted, frustrated, and angry. I’ve only been speaking up here for 5 years and I couldn’t begin to tell you all the times I’ve been part of tackling this exact shit.
PZ has been nothing but honest. He knows that if this affair is bullshit he is done as a credible human being. But he was brave enough to do what is right regardless. I believe in PZ. He has been an advocate for women before I started defending the cause. Good on him. I am tired of men defending anonymous womanizers. That is bullshit, period. PZ has been fighting regardless of the consequences So have numerous others on this forum. Women have had it hard for too long. It’s about time we stood up for women. It’s time for men, yes men, to sided with women who are concerned with this issue. It is time that men sacrifice for the good of society. It’s time that histories obsession for the braveness of men came true. It only can come true if men, as a group, haven decided its time to stop this bullshit against women. Sacrifice the masculine obsession with protection women. Let men sacrifice their social possession for the sake the women’s possession. for a better world. Let us be an ally to women. Not “skeptics” who are some kind of unique reasoned order who finds women to be nothing more than intuitions fool. Let men regain women’s trust, as we should. We,men, don’t deserve women’s good will. They have given it us, undeserved. Let us earn the respect that they give us already.
See nigel? That’s what bob was looking for. he wanted an accountability team.
Thanks for that, Martin.
I’m drunk so therefore unaccountable.
Pete I am not in to ” rainbow flags.”
As far as I know, you can’t (successfully) sue people for ignorantly pontificating on libel laws.
But you can laugh at them.
Had to drive to Chicago today, thread almost doubled in size. Did any of the hyperskeptics ever answer my question of what they would consider to be “evidence” in this case?
I do not belong to any Org’s just a law firm for civil rights.
Caine@1589, I hear you. I’ve been privileged enough to only have been reading it for almost that long.
I was just wondering what specifically I did to Ing, so I don’t do it again.
I bet I can work it out for myself, though, if I think about it a bit.
#1596 Will Clemens, given the level of spelling and grammar you have displayed, I hope you are not charged with producing written work product for that law firm.
Will Clemens:
I’m a member of LGBT. You certainly weren’t fighting for me or any of the other LGBT people in this thread with your moronic comment, Will. This place, where you are submitting comments, is Pharyngula. Pharyngula is a community built up over the years by PZ. It’s thanks to him that the Horde has this community, which we love dearly. Barging in here, into PZ’s community and telling him to go sell it to some other community was remarkably stupid and backward.
You won’t get any brownie points for driving by with the tired, old “Sleazy Myers” crap. We know where that comes from, and it does not speak well of you. If you have nothing reasoned to say, don’t say anything more.
eigenperson, everyone that knows me is aware that I use a sight dog 24/7 ( legally blind),and am a P.I.
Will@1593
1. Out of left field you call our host a liar and tell him to piss off from his own blog.
2. You get called on it.
3. You respond “I only fight for the rights of the LGBQ!” which is admirable if true, but completely irrelevant to the thread or the preceding exchange.
Step four … profit?
You’re losing me somewhere, but given where you started, I’m not sure I really care.
Linda Rosa:
Here to whinge about mob justice or lynchings?
You do not understand either, but I figure we can get this out if the way now, then you can go on about the use of harsh words that you just cant handle.
Bless your heart.
#1600 Will Clemens, thank you for that irrelevant information.
Pete, then do not care. it is that simple.
T. Goddammit. LGBT. I can type.
Sorry. The BQ has nothing to do with this thread. It is late.
Pete Newell:
It was the ‘should’ comment. It’s a bit of a raw spot, given that we’ve dealt with so many asshole apologist who are just in love with framing arguments around various words, such as should.
@Rey Fox
Funnily enough, no (unless you count a prior conviction [narrator=”booming voice”] in a court of law [/narrator][sound effect=”law & order suspense chimes”]). Fancy that.
OK, good job everyone on tackling the rape apologists, but the larger question remains unanswered. Put another way, the elephant in the room is still in the room.
By what right do we condemn the Catholic Church and other religious organizations, when the very same thing is happening right in our midst? And I say this not to try and defend the Catholic Church. This cannot be dismissed as a mere “isolated incident”. It’s apparently a pattern of behavior, which has persisted over years and with multiple victims. Moreover, the named perpetrator here is evidently not the only one.
We can’t do better than this????? Really???
Rey:
Nope. I’ll bet that just surprised your socks off, eh?
I did it.
Ing, so can you.
Read all the comments.
Well done, Horde.
Must not mock obvious trol on other grounds than trollery. Must not mock obvious troll on other grounds than trollery. Must not mock…
Christ, this stuff is hard. How do you do this day in and day out? I’m in awe.
Will Clemens:
As a gay man, I am proud to tell you to fuck off. You are an embarrassment to social justice advocates.
eigenperson, it is relevant. I became legally blind due to a hate crime in 1989 being beaten and stabbed eleven times into a coma, so I take things like this article seriouly. If this is abuse, I need proof, if I could come forword in 1989 and name my attackers this women can do the same., by giving her name.
@Pete, was it an OMGWTFLGBQ?
Ing, my sincere apologies.
[OT]
neuroguy:
Tu quoque is a fallacious argument; it may establish hypocrisy, but it’s irrelevant to the truth of a claim.
Has the significance of this post and its discussion eluded you?
Friendly:
:falls over laughing: Oh, thank you for that.
neuroguy @ #1608: Not sure what you’re missing here. We’re all quite willing and eager to condemn sexual predators in our midst. There are over 1000 comments here doing just that. What we aren’t doing, unlike the Catholics, is figuring out ways to silence their victims, sweep their offenses under the rug, and shuffle them off to some other corner of the community until the noise dies down. So if anyone’s handing out cookies for that, I think chocolate chip would be a popular choice.
Ok, so I’ve been following along and I’m fully caught up and what-not. I almost never weigh in here but at the risk of just echoing ibis3, here we go:
Jane Doe: All my gratitude and respect for your courage. Have no idea how I could lend some support to you & others but I’m open to suggestions. For what it’s worth I believe you.
PZ: Thank you so very goddamn much for being the kind of person who could be trusted to do the right thing. Thanks for taking the risk. Again.
The Horde: I’ve been a huge fan since you were knocking down NDE’s back at the old place. This right here has been a 101 in not backing down. And it’s the exact same thing I’ve watched you do more times than I can count. The same idiotic arguments show up every time and you go through it all over again. I’ve got so much admiration for you people. I lurk because someone always says it better than I could before I can even collect my thoughts to respond. But your responses stick with me and come into play in a thousand other places. You’ve been an invaluable source of information and an ongoing lesson in how to fight the good fight. Next round of grog is on me.
The rest of you trying to find some gray area or effectively blaming the victim? Please stop. Read the thread. Your concerns have been duly noted and dealt with. Read the OP again if you have to. This isn’t the time or place for a hyperskeptikal discussion of hypothetical what ifs. It’s just not. Somebody will have that discussion with you in the lounge, I’m sure. This isn’t a “lynch mob” or a a “witch hunt” or “vigilante justice”. Nobody is after ‘blog hits”. Please stop with that shit right fucking now. Thank you.
@Will, I’m very very sorry that happened to you, but she is under no obligation to give her name — and how does that constitute “proof”?
#1618 Martin Wagner: We aren’t doing that here, but the people in charge of the major “skeptic” conventions DO seem to be doing exactly that.
Chigau:
Awesomeness. Can you do monitor stuff now? I gotta get the hell out of here for a while.
@Friendly: Pretty much.
See me refraining from obvious tasteless follow-up jokes. Not doing so well gauging tasteless.
Being Canadian and all, it was Bloc Quebecois, reflexive typing, and hitting “send” then reading.
Thank Bog none of the shitheads posting on this thread have been named Harper or Ford, or I’d have been going full Tourette’s.
1621: Point. So I guess they’re our “Church” now. Great.
Tony, I do not care what you think of me and never will.
alvaroibanez –
If you think that “time and time again” men have suffered great loss after a false allegation of coercing sex from a woman at a convention, it should be easy-peasey for you to provide three examples. Just three out of many. Three, to match the three most recent accounts from women who have been sexually assaulted at conventions and had their accusations dismissed by incompetent officials.
None of whom have committed suicide, however, so I’ll grant you bonus points if any of your examples actually include one of your men committing suicide out of shame from the false allegation.
Otherwise, fuck off you dishonest little weasel.
[meta]
Will Clemens:
Appeasing your needs is not the purpose of this post, and your conceit that if you can do something, others must perforce be able to do that something too also rather egoistic.
It is not the time to get male egos in the way. It is not the time to believe that male ego or chivalry to take over. We, as a matter of historical and cultural historical circumstance, owe woman our full cooperation in this effort. Women started it without. We need to complete it. Not as heroes of the feminist cause. But as people who respect woman enough to fulfill their initial goal. It’s time not to be a skeptic…its time to be a respectable and good human being. If men want to declare themselves independent from religious morality….they need to look at secular woman as a guide. Letting g woman led the way, to take a back seat, is the right thing to do. Equality demand men be humble.
Actually, a healthy amount of people in this thread are doing exactly that. Also, the “leaders” of a healthy amount of atheoskeptic sites and conferences are doing exactly that.
God, rape culture runs so deep in our society it seems hopeless sometimes. I just walked through a room where I caught a few moments of a typical sitcom where a male character was making a joke about making sure his date was drunk enough to have sex with him. Cue the laugh track! How sickening and repulsive.
I know there is a very recent effort to raise awareness of this, as I recently was please to see at a few universities, for instance, but it’s obviously trivial compared to the effort it’s gonna take. We need to slam society over the head with until the values of “sex without sober consent IS RAPE no matter how comfortable some are with the idea” become universal, and general society becomes repulsed at the idea of turning a relationship or encounter into a sexual one while either partner is not in a state to evaluate what that truly means.
neuroguy (#1608) wrote:
One important difference. As far as I know, no one at these orgs have try to cover up evidence of rape or directly intimidate into silence the victims. Although the conference management failing to take the complaint seriously is bad enough.
Besides, there’s no reason why we cannot condemn both. This idea that you cannot criticize anyone else unless everyone in your group is spotless is plainly idiotic.
Well, if neuroguy’s question was not so much directed at the Horde in particular as it was a rhetorical lobbed in the general direction of the atheist world at large, then yeah, I guess it all looks a lot less good.
John, no proof is ” hearsay” and” hearsay” creates witch hunts, and is always thrown out of courts, becaue it is nonsense.
Will, have you read the thread? If you actually have some pretension to usefulness, would you like to consider figuring out what the fuck you’re talking about before you start in on the rehash?
There’s been a lot of rehash, here. It wasn’t that great in the first place, and it’s getting old.
Bah. It comes with experience. We all start off as apprentices. Some folks lurk, others just jump in. After a while, we learn the basics. We move up to be journeyfolks. At that point, we’re all expected to contribute.
Don’t worry about endurance. That comes with plying the trade. Practice! we say. That’s what it takes. Practice! Endurance comes with confronting bullshit when you can, when you are constitutionally ready.
And that’s all that’s required. Jumping in when you can, when you are able, when you are skilled. (Or, if you’re like me, just when you want to swing a bludgeon around with as much enthusiasm and as little skill as possible.)
The endurance comes as you learn the shifts and flows of irrational rhetoric. You’ll learn when to anticipate the nor’wester, to judge the riptides, slack tides, flood tides, and ebb tides. You’ll gain a proficiency in conservation of strength in preparation for the truly taxing sprints. (Yeah, I’m mixing the fuck out of my metaphors. I’ve been using them all night, and all that’s left at the bottom of the bag is crumbs.)
The trick is, don’t get burned out too early. If you feel yourself taxed, retire for the evening, not matter how wrong someone is on the internet. Trust that others are there to fight the good fight, do what’s necessary, and carry on other clichés.
I’m fortunate that I’m gone for weeks at a time, what with too much work to do, and not enough clones of me to do it. I get to relax in resort-like software sweatshops for a while before returning here.
So, that’s my advice. Don’t continue past what you think is good for you, even if Someone Is Wrong On The Internet.
ck@1631
Unfortunately it seems both CFI and the JREF have tried to cover such things up, which is why Carrie Poppy and Karen Stollznow had to tell their stories.
Among the “favorites” on Will Clemens’ Facebook page: Anti-Feminist Group (Feminism Stinks), The Wooly Bumblebee, and We Support Paula Deen.
Just so we all know who we’re dealing with here.
Let’s stop the problem. It seems that atheism is more important than proper morality. Let’s believe in woman. Let’s believe in humanity, which is the same thing. Let’s be better. We need….to be better. Ego is nonsense. Let’s sacrifice ego for humility. Let’s be human. Let’s be better than Creationist. If we can’t accept humanity as something grand…. let’s give woman the chance the lead. Let’s follow them into the future. A future we can all inhabit, and enjoy each others company. The fight is stupid. Let’s kill patriarchal assumptions so we can do that.
Does anyone else imagine everything troll Will is saying with a French accent? It’s kinda strange.
nigel@1635 Yeah, I may be at that point. I’m responding to obvioustroll, which is a bad sign.
There will always be someone wrong on the internet. If that were the only problem, wouldn’t it be great?
Toodles. Another day.
I have no ‘proof’ I was stalked… other than the fingerprints a cop declined to take… 13 years ago. It was only ‘hearsay’ that I’d been getting creepy phone calls, and that I saw someone trying to break in to my house. The proof that it was only ‘hearsay’ was a cop effectively calling me a liar to my face.
You are an ass, Will Clemens.
screechymonkey, I noticed the antifeminist page, I didn’t notice the wooly bumblebee and Paula Deen fandom though.
Pete making an article about some girl with no identification accusing a man of doing something that could ruin his image and life and hiding in the shadows is ridiculous for an atheist who demands facts, but not this time, because in his oppinion this is differnt some how. This article was childs play and Tom Follery. I am out, need to go to bed, it is late here.
@Will: PZ releasing the alleged victim’s claim on her behalf does not make it “hearsay”, despite the woman’s wish to remain anonymous. This is not a witch hunt; no one is looking for “insufficiently lady-worshipping” atheoskeptic men to tar and feather. (On the contrary, I desperately wish the tide of ugly revelations about guys I would like to admire would stop!). And Pharyngula is not a court, not even of the kangaroo variety. Three whiffs, however, is considered a strikeout in most baseball games.
great1american1satan @ 1639:
No, I’ve been hearing him as Droopy Dog. It’s actually helping keep my blood pressure down.
(“Boo hoo hoo.”)
As for our openly French friend, “The fight is stupid,” you say? It’s a shame you don’t set the agenda for the Slime Pit. You should go tell that to some fight starters.
screechymonkey:
Oh for fuck’s sake. I’m sorry I was nice to the asshole now. Thanks, screechymonkey.
Okay, I’ve taken my pain meds now and will shortly cease making sense, Chigau is around, so I’m out. I really wish my partner was here, but they won’t be home until late Sunday night.
Keep those fangs sharp and shiny, Horde.
What a morass. I am sure that even anonymously telling their tale was hard and I thank them for doing so. Surely threads like this convince me that there is just cause to do so with shields around their identity.
Will:
I am sorry you went through such a horrible time.
That said, your experience and Jane Doe’s will never be equivalent.
Victims of rape have so much shit they face in the aftermath:
Victim Blaming–from friends, family, and authorities. This is a concept wrapped up in rape cases, where the RAPIST is not viewed as the guilty party, but rather, the victim is. She was dressed wrong, out too late, no male with her, drinking too much, flirted…and so many more excuses. All of these excuses target the victim. When it comes to rape, victims all too often get the blame. Which is WRONG. The only…I repeat ONLY one responsible is the rapist.
Dismissal–from friends, family, and authorities. Rape victims are too often not even believed. “He would never do that”, “you agreed to it the last time, this could not be rape”, “your husband cant rape you”. Too often victims of rape are not believed. Even more, many of them are held to a standard far higher than other crimes. The police very, very often are no help. Either denying that a rape happened or not taking the woman seriously. Do not dismiss a rape victim. This shit happens all the time. Believe them.
..
In addition to all that, rape is a traumatic experience. There are myriad reactions that people have and no one will respond exactly the same. To expect a rape victim to contact the police–especially how often they are not believed–is supremely assholish. After such trauma, one should offer support, not demands.
Another horrible aspect many victims deal with is having to continually interact with the rapist (through work or church). Living in constant fear is another reaction. Worried about retaliation if they go to the police is often a worry.
Rapists are rarely caught. Those that are caught often face no prison time. Prison convictions are supremely low.
There is a wealth of information about rape.
Again, I am sorry for what you went through, but the experiences of rape victims are incredibly different than yours. Do not make demands of rape victims.
Because of course a *girl* (I see what you did there, you utter ass) would be totes fine with people calling her a slut, a liar, saying that she deserves to be raped, that she should have acid thrown on her, that they are going to find her and rape, that she is a bitch, a cunt, evil… right? A *girl* would not have any problem with that at all, because she’s innocent and therefore people being self-righteous asshats can’t possibly do her any harm.
Row , so you submit no proof ,you just stated the cop refused to take finger prints ? Oiu vey.
To Anon, the other ladies, PZ and their supporters:
Well done for having the guts to stand up for what’s right.
To the rape culture supporters and other slymebags:
May your beds be infested with a thousand bedbugs.
I don’t know if this is triggering, but I apologise if it is and warn in advance:
I’ve been fortunate that my only experience with sexual assault was one unwanted groping and caving into pressure from another guy to let him touch and see my breasts because I felt like a freak for not having a normal sex drive. The last, at least, backed off when I told him I had to go somewhere else (mostly because he was demanding I fondle him in a public car park).
Want to know what rape culture does to a woman, slymebags?
It makes a woman frightened to be out late at night. It makes a woman terrified of wearing skirts because it’s easier access for a rapist. It makes a woman nervous if she’s walking alone in an isolated track and sees a man coming or walking behind her. It makes a woman understand that if she is raped, she will be the one on trial if she reports it or forced to bear the silent pain if she doesn’t, and that either way she’ll be scarred mentally and emotionally, possibly physically, for life.
I haven’t been raped, mostly through sheer good bloody luck and having a total of three regular male acquaintances in meatspace, all of whom are truly decent human beings. I don’t go out to pubs ‘just in case’ my drink’s spiked and I get assaulted. I’m even scared of catching a night train. I’m the one who has to be hypervigilant so I don’t get raped because I know there’ll be precious little help beyond family and friends for an indigenous autistic woman.
Fuck. That. Shit.
I have a revolutionary idea: how about instead of teaching people how to avoid rape, why don’t we teach everyone that rape is a horrible thing and shouldn’t be done?
Again, slymebags and the (thankfully) few female cheerleaders they have: may you sleep in beds infested with bedbugs, may you get a red light at every set of lights, and may migratory birds shit repeatedly on your heads.
Is this how it sounds in your head? Because really, I can’t make any sense of this, even in context. This paragraph makes references to all the right things, but doesn’t have any cohesion. It makes no sense.
Are you an Eliza bot?
@Will: “Tom Follery”? Was he a game show host or a Christian radio personality? So easy to get them confused…
Caine #1622
Probably not.
I fell asleep waiting for the thread to reload.
[OT + meta]
Will Clemens:
What makes you imagine the purpose of this post is to take Shermer to court and gain a conviction, contrary to the clearly expressed purpose in the OP?
Again: “She’s torn up about it. It’s been a few years, so no law agency is going to do anything about it now; she reported it to an organization at the time, and it was dismissed. Swept under the rug. Ignored. I can imagine her sense of futility. She’s also afraid that the person who assaulted her before could try to hurt her again.
But at the same time, she doesn’t want this to happen to anyone else, so she’d like to get the word out there. So she hands the information to me.”
—
Look: if you want to disbelieve the allegation* (second-hand to you and I, but personal testimony to PZ), fine, but I don’t share your opinion that PZ’s publication of the claim is a bad thing (never mind constitutes a “witch hunt”!) and I have no reason to disbelieve it.
—
* I shan’t reciprocate, since I have neither reason nor motivation to disbelieve your own personal claim about your assault and its consequences.
Will Clemens there is no way you have read this whole thread for comprehension. I’ve already posted multiple times on the “court of law” bullshit.
I also had a grand snarky response to the witch-hunt bull, but my phone got hungry and ate it.
Tony so being raped is far worse that being beaten and stabbed in to a coma & being blind for life and learning to walk and talk all over again and having PTSD because of it ? Wow, I think I would have rather been raped.
Only up to 1300, so this point may have been made, but I wanted to post this before the thread moves on too much farther:
setec (#1273)
One cannot withdraw consent for something that wasn’t on offer to begin with. Consenting to “have sex” is not some all-in-one package deal where poking any appendage into any orifice (or, for that matter, wrapping anything around any appendage) suddenly becomes permitted unless subsequently and explicitly revoked. Each act requires separate permission. Or it’s rape.
(And no, this doesn’t work the other way where a subsequent, drunken “yes” overrides a previous, sober “no.” Consent is never presumed and a sober refusal carries infinitely more weight than drunken “permission.”)
Kevin Schelley (#1636) wrote:
Point taken. The scope is still quite a bit different (as far as we know), though.
What proof can I give you, Will?
I hid in a closet for 3 hours utterly terrified. I finally called the cops, and the officer who arrived said that because I waited ‘so long’ how was he to tell if someone actually tried to break in, or if I was just having an argument with my boyfriend. I pointed out that he had his hands all over the back door. The cop ignored me. The police department ignored the fact that the start of the creepy phone calls was from the agency that registered me to vote, specifically from the guy who registered me to vote. The police department ignored us when my mother reported that she had gotten 3 conflicting stories from the guy’s supervisor/friend.
It was a case of stalking that thankfully didn’t progress all the way to rape. I can provide no physical evidence.
So clearly, per you… Bitches be lyin’.
Will, if you’re a lawyer you’re the worst damn lawyer I’ve ever seen.
If you can’t tell the difference between a blog and a courtroom I’d say anyone who comes to you for legal advice is probably pretty screwed.
Now stick your flounce.
Typical non-sequitur bull from a Slymepitter™. Try again, with some thing cogent. Like Bye…..
So you believe any person that crys “rape” , because no one ever cried rape over and over and over and over ,and it never happend , right?
DocFreeRide- He doesn’t use enough P and B words for me to turn it into Droopy, but he spelled “oy vey” like he was trying to stop himself from typing “mais oui.”
Friendly- Tom Follery was “Pete’s” dad, I think.
Chigau:
Ah well, them’s the breaks. Get some rest, Chigau. Oh, it’s Ratmas in August in Rattitude country. Amelia was being a show off again. She’s also responsible for me being able to hang so long – she was cuddling me again.
You know, having heard how the shitbag suffered gave me an inkling of compassion for him.
Seeing how Will supports goddamn WOOLY BUMBLEBEE, one of the scummiest shitbag Pitstained assholes I have ever heard of, along with Paula “make those black boys wear slave attire and they negro girls wear Aunt Jemima clothes” Deen, he can fuck himself. To infinity and beyond.
I have no patience for Misogynists and Racist Supporters. Take your sorry MRA ass to AVfM.
Here’s the thing about Pascal’s Wager: it’s bullshit because
a)people can’t actually chose their religious beliefs on a whim. it’s not a willed act. I couldn’t make myself believe in a god I don’t believe in.
b)the setup is a false dichotomy between the person’s particular version of god, and atheism, where in reality there’s an endless number of possible choices
c)the claim that there is no cost to belief is empirically false for most flavors of god-belief, and for some flavors it’s extremely harmful to e.g gender and sexual minorities.
if none of these problems applied (i.e. if people could chose beliefs, or if the god only cared about actions; if it were a 50:50 proposition; and if the cost of believing/acting as if were indeed minimal), it would indeed be rational, in the economic sense, to accept the wager. Similarly, assuming your ethics are based on how actions affect human wellbeing, then believing (or behaving as if) this particular accusation is the ethical choice, because given the social context it’s plausible, there’s no way to find more evicence without causing harm, and the harm of believing a falsehood in this case is near nonexistent. Shermer won’t even lose a lot of money, since organizations like CFI are highly unlikely to act on what’s written on PZ’s blog when they didn’t act on much more direct evidence in other cases of sexual misconduct, and even if there are a very few orgs that won’t invite him, there still be plenty that will.
Now, if your ethics are not based on how actions affect human wellbeing and instead are entirely based on declaring believing/uncovering the truth of things as its core value, then it would be ethical to either withhold an opinion entirely, or cause the harm that will provide more evidence. But if that’s your ethics, then you’re going to have to be fine with people pointing out that you’re being harmful… because you are, and because your ethics are based on believing true statements.
Praxis, I never stated I am a lawyer, can you give me proof I did? I am a P.I.
And not a fuck was given. Anyone lacking the empathy to understand that their experiences cannot be exactly equivalent to anyone else’s won’t be missed.
Will Clemens:
Right. So because it’s happened in 0.01% of the cases, you must assume that’s the case this time, right?
Cripes. I go to sleep on my side of the world and then do a morning’s work – and now I’m wondering exactly how many cats it took to drag this heap of ugly rubbish inside. Either I was carried away with the initial speed of the thread or it’s true that things got worse and worse the longer it went on.
Good job, horde. It’s just as well I didn’t try to stay up for as long as SIWOTI, it was late enough anyway.
Jane Doe. I didn’t say it before but I should have. Well done. Take care of yourself.
PZ. Your courage does you credit. We can’t know how this will all turn out in 6 or 12 months time, but there are some of us who will be thankful and grateful forever that you were willing to start running with it.
Wait… I’m confused about this hearsay crap.
I was always under the impression that hearsay was information filtered through at least one iteration of non-verbatim restatement; that it was “person A said something along the lines of X”. A direct quote from the original source is not hearsay as it has not been filtered in any way, it is still the original words of the person, as they said them. In cases of written testimony, so long as the source material has not been altered, a repost of the original testimony is still the original testimony so long as it appears verbatim; without alteration.
So, unless you are accusing PZ of rewriting or embellishing the emailed statement he received, the accusations of hearsay are total and utter stinking bollocks.
Testimony is evidence. Corroborating testimony is further evidence. A statement of trust from a third party known to the persons making said testimony adds credence to the testimonies as evidence.
What -is- hearsay is further parties coming forward with accounts of being told by others that this person is a predator, but even such hearsay can lend credence to the evidence if presented in sufficient quantity and by trusted sources.
Anyone saying there’s no evidence or that it’s all hearsay is being highly disingenous.
Will Clemens,
No, I believe anyone that cries rape because everyone who does is doubted, and that doubt hurts every single person who has been raped and come forwards as well as every person who has been raped and kept their silence. Rape happens, helping those who have been raped is not solely done on a per person basis.
nigel According to The U.S .Dept. Of Justice it is 9% of found and proven lies of rape.
@Will: It’s a shame that your experience, which could have filled you with empathy for other victims of violence, seems instead to have filled you with bitterness. I’m still sad about your terrible assault, but I’m rapidly losing any desire to feel sorry for you.
Maybe a lack of basic human compassion helps in the PI biz. Though I don’t understand gay MRAs. That scene isn’t noted for being especially welcoming of outsiders. Or, for that matter, why any oppressed minority would be hot to oppress another, as common as it is.
But mostly I just don’t understand why he was born and educated in the USA but has ESL grammar.
Will Clemens:
Thanks! That’s still an order of magnitude, no?
So, what was your point again?
I have to wonder what percentage of cars that are reported stolen weren’t? Do we doubt someone when they tell us their car got jacked?
Will, link to that statistic please.
And was it shown that the woman wasn’t raped… or was it shown that the wrong person was convicted?
Sorry to tell you I am a very happy married man to a handsome pilot and have two adopted kids and am anything but bitter, but I demand facts while fighting for my 1700 state and federal rights and gay men are the most beaten killed and discriminated Americans so as I said I demand facts. I do not need sympathy.
Row actually more men are raped in America than women according to the U.S Dept of Justice and almost half of all rapes in the U.S. Military are men, go look it up.
Will, you’re a liar. You’re certainly not a lawyer. That you trot out that tired old trope of “Women cry rape all the time” shows that you lack the critical thinking and research skills necessary to even pass the LSATs.
You’re just another rape apologist, here to revictimise those who have suffered at the hands of people who think just like you.
You want to know some of what rape victims have to face that you won’t ever have to?
Here, asshole, suck on this for a bit:
Being slutshamed or blamed for their assault and therefore being revictimised all over again by men such as yourself who think that they deserved it or that it “couldn’t be that bad”.
Fearing that their partner will leave them, or never be able to touch them lovingly again because that partner can’t handle the fact that they’ve been “soiled” by someone.
Their family turning against them because once it’s made public the family also has to deal with public perceptions which are rarely kind or comforting to rape victims.
Friends, colleagues and members of the community whispering behind their backs… whispering things like “I wouldn’t have let that happen to ME” or “How could she have let herself get in that situation” or anything you yourself have said in this thread.
Threats of rape or assault from all the “brave heroes” that pile on victims as if it were a sport.
Suffering the indignity of the physical examination to get a “rape-kit” done after they’ve already been violated.
Brutal, victim blaming cross examination by defense attorneys.
The very real possibility that they may never feel able to have a normal, loving relationship with another partner ever again.
Physical damage beyond your comprehension including which can result in such things as uterine or bladder prolapse, vaginal damage making intimacy impossible, damage to clitoral tissue so great that orgasm is impossible, and possible sterility.
The fear, and reality, of STI’s including HIV/AIDS
That’s just a small part of the reality of what a rape victim has to face. That’s only a FRACTION of the horror they deal with.
If you had even an ounce of compassion you’d feel the deepest shame for what you’ve said here.
I know, though, from your previous comments that you don’t.
So stick your fucking flounce and fuck the fuck right off, you fucking fuck.
Oh, and now I see that the douchecanoe hasn’t stuck the flounce. Colour me surprised.
Hear ye, hear ye!
Let it be known that henceforth and with all dispatch that the Right Honourable Will Clemens is the one true arbitrator of any and all claims of harm and distress.
Let it further be known that he is infallible in his judgement, righteous in his wrath and beyond all reproach due to his vast and ineffable experiences.
Let all who hear these words tremble in terror at his every utterance, for he knows all, sees all and understands jack all.
So mote it be.
1675: I was about to say precisely the same thing. I’m sorry Will was so horribly assaulted. I’m also sorry the experience hasn’t made him more empathetic to other victims.
LOL, I never stated I was a lawyer
Since the rate of false reports is 9%, then in nine out of ten cases the allegations of rape are true.
Believing the victim is the safe bet, and the better choice ethical and morally.
Time and time again I stated I was a P.I. for an LGBT law firm…..
I’m betting black transwomen have you beaten in the “beaten and killed and discriminated” contest, but yes, thanks for admitting you have no sympathy. Can you stick the flounce yet?
*singsong* You’re so vain you probably think this song/comment/thread is about you…*singsong*
There ahad better be DNA if one is to be accused of rape and sent to serve time.
You are claiming more men than women are raped in the US… when 1 in 4 to 6 women will be raped in their lifetime? So you are claiming at least 1/3 of all men are victims of rape?
Please link me to that statistic.
By the way…
http://www.icdv.idaho.gov/conference/handouts/False-Allegations.pdf
On the college campus studied, false allegations were shown at just 6%, with the result being an estimated 2 to 10% claims being false generally. Only 1 in 10 of *reported* rape allegations. Now think about how many don’t get reported.
@Will in #1668: “Praxis, I never stated I am a lawyer, can you give me proof I did? I am a P.I.” How about when you said in #1596: “I do not belong to any Org’s just a law firm for civil rights”? When most people say “I’m in a law firm” it doesn’t mean they’re a detective.
great, I have sympathy when I get the facts. I have to be a skeptic in my feild of work.
Ooo… According to Will one cannot be raped with something not a body part!
Actually it’s not “found and proven lies of rape”. That’s reports coded as false by police departments. And why do police departments decide rape reports are false? Because they investigated in good faith and found contradictory evidence? HA HA no.
By the way, the rate for accusers who were charged with making a false report (with the strictest criteria) was 2.1% and usually involved stranger rape accusations, not known perpetrators. That would be the closest equivalent to “found and proven lying”.
Research at Rape Myth #1: She’s Probably Lying.
row so just hearsay ought to do it in court,,,,great….sigh”
You aren’t working.
Flounce, flounce, flounce, or be trounced! Rape apologia from a slyme and racist sympathizer, plus epic derailing of the “all about me” variety?
FUCK THE FUCK OFF
Testimony. Is. Not. Hearsay.
Rape Myth is not a valid nor well respected source source.
You know what? The man who caught me when I was 16 knocked me unconscious, severely beat me over the course of several hours, repeatedly strangled me, repeatedly raped me and knifed me. I was very lucky to have survived. Very lucky. I have PTSD. Many rape victims do, you know. Now, after everything that happened to me, I got the privilege of being treated like shit by cops and the ADA prosecuting the case. I got that for the duration of the trial, which went on for two years. After that, I got the oh so joyous privilege of having to show up for parole hearings every 7 fucking years. It’s been 40 years since I was 16.
You wouldn’t rather have been raped, believe me. You don’t have the slightest fucking idea of what it’s like to be raped. The rape is bad. Beyond belief bad, and it doesn’t matter if it was one like mine or it was a rapist who jumped on a woman unable to consent because she’d been drinking or if it was the utter betrayal of someone you thought of as a friend who rapes you. As bad as the rape is, the aftermath is a complete nightmare. You’ve just been handed a life sentence, and bobbing all around that life sentence are people who insist that somehow or other, you’re the one responsible for the rapist’s act. It’s not just women who get raped. Children get raped. Men get raped*. It’s a horrible thing, and it’s pretty damn awful that you’re playing some sort of “my trauma is worse than yours” game.
*If there’s one thing that always seriously bothers me in rape threads, it’s the absolute focus on women being raped. Yes, I know that the majority of people raped are women, but it’s very important to remember that children and men are also often victimized by rapists, and that rape culture does a great deal of damage across the board.
The DoJ says it happens in 9% of reported cases. Less than half of all rapes are even reported. Even fewer continue to an investigation stage, as the report yields absolutely no results. Even fewer are pursued with any seriousness (Witness the 11k untested rape kits in Detroit alone), and the 9% includes every case the cops turn away because bitches ain’t shit (pursuant to the Global Accords). The only part I’m not sure on is whether or not it includes the cases where they accuse the wrong person (Generally due to racism).
No, that would be trans people. And not to belabor the obvious, but gay men can’t be the most discriminated against, because there are gay men of color (Who, I assure you, have it dozens of times worse than you), gay women, and so forth.
Man, Will is just being a walking talking exhibit of what I blogged about yesterday over at Atheist Experience.
If you report that someone smashed the window of your car and tried to boost it, the default response you’d get would almost certainly, universally, be sympathy and anger towards the perp. But if a woman reports she was sexually violated in any way, the default response from far too large a percentage of people who hear her will be doubt, denial, shifting of blame (you were drunk, you led him on with your push-up bra), and worst of all, a whole second round of sexual abuse and threats for having the gall to make the charge at all.
So if someone tells you rape and sexual harassment should be treated like “just any other crime,” odds are very good they’re a hypocritical d-bag, because they don’t do that themselves. Case in point: If it’s discovered that the fellow claiming his car was nearly boosted is later found to have done the deed himself, perhaps to cheat his insurance company, everyone who initially sympathized with him will think he’s a major dickbag. But what they won’t likely do is think that every person they hear, for the rest of their lives, who reports an attempted grand theft auto is lying and trying to run an insurance scam.
But this is how many people think of rape: One documented, proven case anywhere in history of a false rape and sexual assault/harassment accusation, to misogynists, means that the default response to any such claim, ever, is “Biatch be lyin’!”
Good god, the assholes are still going strong. What they don’t seem to realize is that they’re just providing a platform for certain amazing people to shine in all their amazingness.
Has all of the lynching and shooting and other ridiculous language died down, or are those people just asleep? Because I was going to point out that it takes a very special kind of cluelessness to try to wield physical harm metaphors about words on a page in a situation in which one person has actually been physically harmed, and it’s sure as hell not Shermer.
Sorry fuckwitted Slymer. You haven’t and can’t present a cogent argument. All you have is slogans. Typical of weak minded MRAs. Your best bet is to shut the fuck up. You have no idea of what is required to change minds here. And you are doing it wrong…
The facts are there. You are no skeptic, other than “women lie”. That is the extent of your skepticism. We know the drill of losers like you.
No Rutee, It is gay men according to The Southern Poverty Law Center
Will: Look, you disingenuous shitstain, I’m done being nice with you.
You say you’re a PI?
That you work for a law firm that deal with civil rights cases?
Prove it, you scumbag.
If you don’t provide absolute complete proof, including complete name and address for the firm, a copy of your license, a copy of your photo ID, the hospital record of your assault, the police report and court records of your assault, the papers for your service animal and testimony from no less than three reliable witnesses, given under oath and properly notarized then all claims you have mad can be summarily dismissed because people claim the kind of things you have all the time and since a very small percentage of them lie you can’t be believed until you’ve proven it to MY personal satisfaction.
So put up, or shut the fuck up.
Will, I see you are dodging providing me sources for your statistics.
So I did some research for you:
Men ‘outnumber’ women… when prison rape is factored in. For the rest of the world that does not involve being incarcerated, women vastly outnumber men in which gender/sex gets raped.
I do not even post my married name on FB only my birth name and no P.I or any other pro tells the location of where they work I did that once and a woman called my employer. Never again, but I did post her criminal record on the internet I unsealed :)
praxis, I believe you meant to say “three male witnesses.”
row exactly prisoners are human too.
Eigenperson, you’re right. How silly of me.
Rute, no one stated you ust listen to me
Jebus, will the non-sequiturs never stop? When that is all you have, you are incoherent.
I’m glad you made the correction. For a moment there I was afraid I would have to believe something a female said.
Nope, the closest they come is saying that there are severely flawed studies that claim gay men die violently. But those flawed studies said gay women were even more monstrously likely to die a violent death, so even then, you’d be wrong. Trans people are the ones most likely to be beaten and killed based on the actual statistics of that violence. A smart gay man would look to his alliance, nod, and accept it. You’re not gonna give me any evidence you’re a smart gay man, are you?
Disclosure:
Gay woman of color here.
Yes, they are human too… but also have an unnatural concentration of violent individuals and criminals who likely would have no compunctions about performing more criminal acts. They are also mostly gender segregated. If it was a co-ed facility where the inmates were in multi-gender cells, what do you want to bet those numbers would change?
So were just supposed to believe you, Will?
Nope. That won’t wash. You’ve made claims that someone, somewhere has lied about before.
So unless you meet the burden of proof I’ve decided might be sufficient (If I don’t engage in moving the goalposts after you’ve provided it) then you’re just another lying sack of shit who simply trying to get attention.
Will Clemens,
But they aren’t exactly living in a normal environment. The prevalence of rape in penal culture is appalling, but it’s disingenuous to not distinguish between the surrounding situations.
Uh, you did, by giving me nothing but your word. Repeatedly at this point.
Praxis:
That’s an unbelievably difficult time. It feels like you’re laying yourself open to be raped again. I have so much empathy for all the great doctors and nurses who do them, because I’ve talked to many who absolutely hate doing them, because they feel like they are violating the person all over again. It’s heartbreak, all the way around.
Rowanvt:
I’m sure my friend, who was raped with a coke bottle, which was then hammered to shatter it while it was in her vagina would be thrilled to know that.
Actually, you know what, per Will all we have is their claim that they were beaten and stabbed and are now blind.
Clearly there is no proof provided, so it is hearsay, so it is all lies per Will.
Nerd:
No fucking shit. This has all devolved into some kind of absurdist sketch comedy, in which Will Clemens is the grandly smiling centerpiece spouting nonsense when others come to him with problems.
Actually, that might be kinda funny. I’mma put that right next to my skit about the Jonestown affair, in which Kool-Aid Man makes a prominent appearance.
Will, why are you trying so hard to change the subject away from the woman who got raped?
Stephanie Zvan took apart the “more men are raped” claim a while ago.
Any other PIs here? Because searching out and posting someone’s records, criminal or otherwise, sounds like one hell of an ethics breach to me.
I was raped by an old girlfriend when I had a fever, temperature of 104, delirious. It was thoroughly unpleasant. So yes, men do get raped. Not being a woman, and men actually being able to imagine this event as not very nice, I have never had anyone question my story or deny it was rape. So when men post here disputing the technicalities of consent, I know they are full of bullshit.
For many reasons, which are different to those of many people who have been raped (who, for example, remain vulnerable to attack in many situations), the event is not deeply traumatic to me. However, anyone capable of empathy should be able to imagine how a woman who is plied with drink then assaulted by a man of high status might feel afterwards. How she might find it difficult to trust men, how she might feel wary about letting her hair down in future, how she might feel that she is not respected as a human being, how she might be afraid of getting pregnant, how she might feel that her body is not even her own, how she might feel terrified, and more.
The problem is that getting someone drunk has been regarded as a legitimate tactic since forever. But a skeptic should know tradition is bullshit.
@Will: Violated her privacy (and probably a couple of laws) by posting her record on the Net? You sure got back at that bitch, huh? What a terrific, woman-supportive human-rights crusader you are.
GTFO.
Carlie rape is rape it is no differnt for women than it is for men. Both are horrible
and military and prison rape gender breakdowns have… exactly what to do with acquaintance rape at conventions again?
Oh right, prioritizing The Menz.
Heck, for a minute there I was about to dig up more evidence for Will, but looks like he won’t read anything not endorsed by MRAs.
So NOBODY here has had sober sex? You don’t have to get angry, it’s okay. I’m not being judgmental.
Caine. you’ve been hanging out here for years, and you might want to reassess whether or not you’re actually changing the world one keystroke at a time, and who is welcome. Geez, I thought I had ego problems
Praxil: Don’t worry about warning your sisters about my creepiness. Women stopped flirting with me when I hit fifty, and even if I did want to cheat on my wife, she is universally feared by men and women alike. No woman would risk their life trying to score with me. But friend me up on Facebook anyway, We have a good time over there, and I might actually be on your side..
This is quite the hand grenade, indeed. I met Shermer at the Queen Mary gig, very strange vibe. I’m not a big fan of the libertarian wing of atheism, they all seem creepy to me.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
BTW, how come none of you flying monkeys ever notice when I post something cool? You get all over my ass for being a wise guy.
You try being a pro-union, left wing, out atheist, Jesus bashing, anti-racist in fucking TX. I earned this attitude and speaking of attitude
The HOUSTON ATHEIST FUCK KEN HAM WEEKEND with Aron Ra, Lilandra, PZ Myers.
http://acksisofevil.org/405-1.html
Aron Ra and Lilandra tell their back story, it’s fascinating and touching. A true love story, we need more of those. Listen to something positive.
Anyone who wants to pretend men are raped more because of prisoners is a fucking moron. First, let’s get something straight – the best evidence we have indicates that around in the range of 20% of male prisoners are raped. Now, that’s 20% too high, don’t get me wrong, but it isn’t 100%, or 80%, or even 60%, as the myth so often goes. Second, prisoners and ex-prisoners are perhaps a full 1% of the population. 16% of women, who are half the general population, are raped. Which of these is a higher number: .2%, or 8%?
Carlie, it’s because to him Bitchez be lyin unless he is shown DNA evidence that they were raped.
@the rape apologists and protectors of the pedestal:
What extra evidence would there be if you knew the victim’s name? So you’d know that her name is, say, Maria Juarez* instead of Jane Doe. This helps you in what way?
What evidence do you think would be presented if this case ever saw the inside of a court room? The victim’s testimony. Perhaps the testimony of the witness who’s quoted above. Would this be enough evidence to convict or would a jury acquit because it boils down to her testimony as to what happened? So all those clamouring for Jane to press charges, how would that make there magically be more evidence than what’s been posted by PZ? i.e. evidence that you already have. (and you probably still wouldn’t have the victim’s name, because there’s usually a publication ban on the identity of accusers in sexual assault cases)
What evidence are you looking for that would be sufficient to warrant a public warning about Shermer? In other words, if someone you knew and trusted came to you with this testimony, what more would you need to go public so as to help prevent other women from the risk? BTW, you do realise that there are many, many cases of sexual assault caught on tape where the rapist(s) have not been charged or have been charged and acquitted, right?
*I pulled this name out of my ass, and it refers to no one living or dead.
Friendly if she came after me, I went after her, fair , no ? You call my work, or harass my partner ,or children I will come and get you. I do not care who you are are what shape your genitles are. I am an equal oppertunity destroyer
Rowanvt:
I’d love to see this question seriously addressed by any of the apologists. It won’t be, but I would like that.
A lie detector test for both parties to begin with
Will – if you agree both are horrible, why are you trying to derail the discussion of one in favor of the other?
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. You don’t get bonus points for Texas the rest of the south doesn’t get, trust me.
Because lie detectors are so accurate.
Oh, I see. So science matters only when it supports your preconceived notions.
Hint: There’s a reason lie detectors aren’t admissible in a court of law as evidence, ever.
@Rutee:
In the mind of assholes like Will the .2% may not be higher, but it counts more.
Per Will, it is okay for him to do criminal things in response to criminal things… but women who are afraid of criminal things can’t talk about something criminal that happened to them.
So it’s okay when you do it because you have “reasons”? No, it’s not okay.
There’s also a reason lie detector tests for accusers are considered an unethical intimidation tactic. Which is referenced in the post I linked which you refused to read.
Dhov if some one accused me of rape I think I would sue and demand the test and other test or have it be thrown ot of court then sue the person claiming I raped him or her for def/of/ character
Oh, FFS. Every time I’ve seen a debate about the rape of a woman, some jackass MRA shoves his mug into the middle of it and screams BUT WHAT ABOUT MEN?!
Congratulations, Will Clemens, for being that jackass. Now, try to get it through your head that this thread is not about you, not about prison rape, and not about you. Focus on the first and third of those things.
skooterskutre:
Uhm, you just described one of my best friends, born and raised in Texas, moved back there about five years ago. He’s nothing like you. You don’t “earn” the right to be an asshole. You claim it for yourself, and when you do, you’re just an asshole.
davehooke:
Yes, they do. I am sorry you were raped, Dave. I thank you for sharing your experience
Increasingly disgusting piece of dog shit Will continues to increase disgustingness. I gots better shit to do than read this, at the moment. Maybe I’ll pop back in and see what stuff looks like on page 5.
#1742 Rutee: Sadly, lie detector tests are admissible as evidence in some states, though no one (accused or witness) can be required to take the test.
praxis and rowanvt,
I get the point you’re making, and that you’re only pretending to deny Will’s experience, but I’m not really comfortable with heading down that road. Can we maybe not do that?
Yes revenge brings color to my cheeks, hen I was 14 I got beaten up in HS at the bus stop so that night at 3 am I climed out my window and took a gallon of Crisco cooking oil to his house and poured it in his brand new Birthday Camero, Years later I admitted to doing it on Facebook :)
@Will: Oh, of course, because when someone has the unmitigated gall to make a phone call about *you*, *you* have the absolute right to use teh Intertubes not only to identify the person but to divulge unquestionably damaging private personal information about them. But when a woman gets raped, she has to present some evidence and go through the court system; how *dare* she speak the name of her rapist online!
Please, for the sake of the nonexistent gods, stop.
Such a unique experience. No one I know has experienced anything even remotely similar. Clearly this unique experience entitles you not just to your attitude, but to whining about other people’s attitudes, who’ve obviously not experienced your kinds of hardships and therefore haven’t earned their attitudes.
This is the first time I have ever tried to read a thread and could not keep up. I started trying to catch up about 2 or 3 hours ago. I’m going to comment now, and hope I am not repeating stuff that’s been said, but I see no other choice here.
Beatrice at 803
I have ordered one complete internet to be delivered to you later today.
Comment:
I am very impressed with all the guys asking “exactly how far can I go before I see the inside of the slams from the not-visitor side of the glass?” I cannot understand why more women do not ask this question. After all, this is simply a logical research type question, isn’t it? I guess it’s a guy thing.
Trigger warning:
As a lawyer, I would like to mention that the evidence of all the women who were attacked would be admissible in a trial involving charges relating to ONE of them. There is an evidence rule that permits such testimony where there is a course of conduct or pattern of conduct, which pattern would make it more probable that the accused committed the alleged act.* The idea is that there are things that people have a propensity for repeating. Patterns of sexual behavior are notoriously consistent and people famously have a drive to repeat sex acts. People repeat an act that they liked, whether it is regular stuff or stuff so far out there that it is hard to imagine. If a pattern of conduct can be proved, then it also goes to adding weight to the evidence of the specific act in question.
Please note, this would be a course of conduct that is parallel to, or shares strong similarities with, the alleged act. The fact that a person had sex is not very probative of some other specific act. The fact that the person had done something very, very similar before, does go to prove the specific act.
Point? Even the courts (not all famed for sensitivity) recognise that some behavior is going to be repeated, because that is what people are like. I think where it seems repetition is already happening, then you have to do something.
I hope Jane Doe in this case takes care of herself as well as having taken steps to care for others.
Thanks to PZ for taking a stand.
*which is like evidence of bad character which is NOT admissible. Pattern evidence is different.
I have seen a few men on this thread mention that they are married and therefore discussions of rape don’t directly apply to them. When I see things like this being said I am filled with indignation. Of course spouses can rape one another. Marriage is not a writ of ownership and submission is not consent. Spousal rape happens. It happens in religious marriages, like mine was, where the man is given authority by the church. It can happen in secular relationships. It is quite common.
To the assholes bemoaning their Get Out of Rape Free cards- fuck right off. Rape has not been watered down, it has been better defined. See, in science, when we gain a better understanding of a subject we update the related materials to stay current (/patronization). So stop pretending to be surprised when we apply this to other areas.
To the topic at hand. Jane Doe I believe you. I am sorry we are not better than those guided by religious indoctrination. I am sorry we haven’t done right by you and that we live in a world where it is safer for you not to report a violent crime to the police.
Yes me wanting evidence from some one who refused to come forowrd attacking a famous man with out any evidence makes me a bad man. Then I am really bad.
Will Clemens,
Now why would someone accuse you of raping them? I would hope that you might start off being appalled that something you had done made someone feel that way. That doesn’t appear to be the case.
I would have to get my guide dog to get me to the supposed victim first, so I think that would be a joke in a court of law :)
I’m fully aware of what I’m doing, thank you. Ego? You had the ego to waltz into a thread full of rape and sexual assault victims fighting apologists to make an asinine rape “joke”. As for who is welcome, I’m a monitor here and was letting you know that your usual shit was not appropriate. That gives you a chance to stop or leave without me having to send an alert.
You haven’t earned jack shit when it comes to your earlier behaviour in this thread. I’m sure it will come as a shock to you, but this thread is not about you, nor your hard life in Texas. I will always prioritize people who have been raped, and your idiotic comment had the potential to both trigger people and to derail the thread.
I’m going to bow out for awhile.
Caine, you’ve been doing a fantastic job of arguing and proving all these assholes wrong today. Don’t forget to get some rest. (I know that’s an unsolicited reminder, but well I hope you’ll forgive it. )
Will Clemens@1759:
What part of “this thread is not about you” don’t you understand? Nobody cares what you want. Go take your petulance and your cross and nail yourself to it elsewhere.
@Will: No, wanting evidence doesn’t make you a bad man. Breaking the law in pursuit of petty revenge, however, makes you a criminal. And also quite a piece of work.
Will Clemens,
Right. So because you have a guide dog, you could never do anything to harm someone else? Are you really this myopic or do you work at it?
Friendly so outting someones criminal record through the courts after the District Atty found her to be stalkig me and harrasing my family is breaking the law ?
Will Clemens:
Actually, yeah, it does.
You’ve already presented evidence that at most 9% of rape accusations are false. I’m not gonna even cover the fact that this statistic is based on a system that is already stacked against the rape victim. I’m not even gonna cover that fact that many (or most) rape victims don’t even come forward, due to the fact the system is stacked against them.
I’ll take your 9% statistic at face value.
That means that 91% of the time the report is true.
So that means that right now, based on what we know, we can assume this accusation is true, with only a 9% uncertainty.
Now, considering this whole thing is strictly about warning other women to stay away from the named person, and not about punishing the named person in any way, what the fuck is your point?
Do you not wish to warn women about 91% potential rapists?
Really?
Rawnaeris, thank you. ♥
I’ll try. My meds are starting to kick in, turning the ol’ brainpan into mush.
Testimony is evidence, unless you’re a woman.
Polygraphs aren’t evidence, unless you’re a woman.
Because bitches lie. Fuck your ignorant shit. Gay people do not need such ignorant-as-fuck activists. We need activists who fucking know not to perpetuate other people’s fucking oppressions, because that will make them supporting us for our just cause much less likely.
Putting Crisco in a boys car when you are 14 back in the 70s ? Sorry but the statute of limitations are far over.
I registered specifically to post the following:
Caine, et al: You make a difference. I’ve learned a lot from the preceding 1760 comments, in which you were an active participant.
Jane Doe: I believe you. And I am so sorry this happened to you.
PZ: Thank you. Thank you for speaking out. Thank you for not being one of the good who stand by and do nothing.
@Screechymonkey:
I’m mad as hell right now because this douchecanoe is denying MY experience and the experience of thousands of women like me. (Notice how he has taken no issue with men who are victims of rape? Oh, no. He has, in fact, inflated the numbers on that score.)
I snarked on his bullshit because it proves a point. It is probably not the best way to do it, I agree.
Jane Doe, thanks for putting a mans reputation on the line and mentioning his name to a gossip and possibly ruining his reputation while you stay under cover.
Is this a court?
this, in a thread full of ppl delurking to say Caine has made an important change in their life? bitterly funny.
InitHello, thank you. And thank you, for letting your voice be heard. Thank you for standing up and being counted. I look forward to listening to your voice in the future.
Yeah, because so many famous accused rapists suffer a short drift into obscurity.
Fuck me running, but Will Clemens is an annoying twit with nothing interesting to say.
Will, let me ask again:
Do you not wish to warn women about 91% potential rapists?
(Also, thanks for trivializing someone’s rape. That totes makes you a stand-up guy.)
If you can judge a position by the quality of its opponents, I think the fact that the leader of the opposition right now is an ethically-challenged PI who believes that lie detector tests are reliable is a pretty good sign for us.
Rutee, you make a good point.
I did two years of incarceration and it is an extreme example of rape culture, also very violent. I don’t think it is comparable to male-female interaction in the free world. Prison rape culture is totally out. Men in prison brag about their rapes and the victims are castigated as punks, There is absolutely no empathy for rape victims in that culture. In the free world, rapists do not rate highly on the social scale and for the most part victims are treated with empathy by the population.
You are correct, however, my anecdotal experience is that 20% sounds about right. With a caveat that once you have been prison raped, odds are you will be raped repeatedly for the stay, which is not the case in the free world, so it’s more brutal.
Perhaps I have lived a more tawdry life than most, but I think the 16% of women raped or molested seems a bit low. Most of the women I’ve known have ‘a story’ that they tell when we’ve had a few drinks.
Eh, zark off, Clemens, you buffoon. I’ll add my pebble of support: Caine, you do rock! And yes, you are changing the world one keystroke at a time. Or is my testimony to that end just “hearsay”?
Sorry Rutee but I am not going anywhere as a gay activist. I have the highest record of outting preist, ministers, and other anti gay rights activist ,and I am proud to ruin their lives. The Suffragettes did it, and so do we.
Jane Doe I believe you and I believe you’ve done a good thing. It’s just too bad that the org can’t be mentioned because I’d like to let them know that this type of thing needs to be taken seriously no matter the celebrity of the persons involved if they’d like any $upport from me.
PZ You’re really sticking your neck out on this one. For a great reason. I’m not surprised.
Horde great job as usual at attempting to educate the obtuse, inform the ignorant, and thrash the trolls.Caine you truly have gone above and beyond the call on this occasion.
Will, (and all you others hard of reading and poor of comprehension) which part of this from the OP do you not understand?
Nigel:
No shit. Now it’s just a bunch of gossips. Guess we can all rest easy now, there’s no rape (unless it a man in prison), it’s just gossip.
I have to go with Beatrice – this is the closest I’ve yet felt that a near fatal eyeroll might actually turn fatal. If I roll my eyes any harder, my spine is going to pop out of my neck.
scooterskutre:
I really hope your exposure to this was minimal. Your stories are your own to tell.
In the meantime: thanks for #1781. It was tough to read, and there was nothing blatant, personal, or explicit in it. It just gave me knowledge I did not have before. (Knowledge I wish I didn’t have, in some ways.)
@Will: First you said that “I did post her criminal record on the internet I unsealed” — that *you* unsealed it and *you* posted it on the Net. Now you say that you publicized her criminal record “through the courts”. Right.
Folks, I’m sorry for abetting this person (though I suspect that I use the term loosely here) in gleefully pursuing his derailment of the thread and stealing the focus away from where it belongs. My bad. I’ll try not to be egged on further by his spewing.
What else can I do, as a reasoning, thinking person who abhors coerced[*] sexual conduct towards another person? If I do not stand up for the count, I am the silent majority who accepts and endorses the status quo where rapists get off scot-free simply for certain reasons. Fuck that.
[*] I specifically exclude situations where such coercion was previously negotiated as part of a consensual, restricted acting-out of a sexual fantasy.
Ok, I guess we can all assume gleefully that this famous atheist man did it, lets spread the word:) Get ‘er done ! Yeeee Haaaaaaw
the Suffragettes!? Seriously? You are comparing yourself to the Suffragettes? Women who were defamed, abused, beaten by police… to someone who abuses and defames women and thinks they should be put up for abuse by police.
Stick to your fucking flounce, Will. Go back to that rock you crawled out from under.
MrFancyPants:
Unless we both take lie detector tests, I think it is.
Wow, caught back up with the thread. That took a few hours. Go Horde go.
Will Clemens, are you saying that you do LGBT activism by outing and shaming LGBT people? I could be misreading, but I think that’s what you said.
Will:
Fuck your use of the word “gleeful”.
There is not one thing about this that would suggest “glee”.
With every comment you display more and more disrespect for every victim of rape and demonstrate less and less basic human decency.
Will Clemens:
Sooooo, this is your rational, well-thought-out response?
For some reason, I expected better from a PI. Must’ve been all those years watching Tom Selleck. I expect all PIs to be Magnum.
It probably is more brutal to deal with, and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. It’s awful and needs to end yesterday – it just doesn’t demonstrate that men are more likely to be raped.
Okay, the suffragettes didn’t generally need to out people, but that’s not the fucking point. I don’t care about your interactions with abusers and people who have power. I care about the fact that you fucking continue the suffering of other oppressed people. Some of us actually have some vague idea what it is like to be both a person of color and gay and women, imagine that. This asshattery and preening about how you have it worst is fucking stupid.
Robert let me give you an example: I found a minister in Alabama that was on a one man crusade aganst LGBTs, so I outted his medical records with three counts of Chlamydia while he was married to his blessed wife. He had a heart atack the next day I was hauled in to court. That is the risk I take.
Caine:
Even though lie detector tests are notoriously unreliable. Like, to the point of being worthless.
But I guess if you’re a PI of Will Clemens’ calibre, worthless is the standard rubric.
Rutte are you sure you are not Red from that Canadian Feminist video?
Will Clemens:
Ah! So you have no morals.
That makes sense.
What a dumbfuck.
I never played This Trauma is Worse.
I said they were different and you cannot reasonably compare them.
AND you stupid misogynistic asswipe, I explained the ways that women suffer after rape which you I, am almost certain, did not experience.
Nigel the bald
Why don’t you provide this forum with some evidence for your claim that I am an asshole. Be specific. What have I said that set you off? Was it the drunk sex comment?
Are you mad at me because I’ve had SEX??!!
Are you trying to say wink wink nod nod… what’s it like?
with a name like Nigel, you must be familiar with that joke.
Scuse me while a get a cocktail and wait for citizen Caine.
…and Will’s story that he’s a great crusader for civil rights is quickly starting to unravel.
With every comment his story seems to change just enough to make me think he’s a hateful bigot, through and through.
Scooterskutre:
I am so sorry you have experienced such a brutal environment. Such a nightmare. I don’t have words.
It’s well past the point where I think that Obvious troll is being far too obvious.
Nigel prove the lie detector test are unreliable by a well known well respected source
Caine, sorry for the last barb.
And guess what? THAT is illegal.
@Kevin Schelley:
You think? I know my take can’t be trusted because I’m just a lying woman who lies, lyingly because my vagina.
Say there Will, been in touch with Ellenbeth recently?
@FossilFishy #1809:
What the hell? Could you explain that a little further?
Kevin The Suffragettes had it far easier than gays ever had it, gays are the most beaten killied minority of today You nbever read about the “white Feather syndrome” ?
scooterskutre:
Actually, it was this one, from the same comment:
You’re basically an asshole. Your earlier comments are pretty much of the same tone. Kind of superior, in an assholish way.
Don’t get me wrong: I like assholes. I just think using Texas as an excuse is lame.
One Suffragettte died back then thousands of gays are killed.
Seeing as I have no idea what you’re talking about, I’mma go with no.
Fuck me you are a lazy jackass. Here ya go.
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/amp/40/3/355/
Off more or less the top of my head.
I’ve yet to mean one of these blathering MRA types who isn’t just a disgusting, amoral person. Will is fitting the stereotype nicely.
@Prax
I try not to think on the weekends, but I have this vague sense that he is only trying to piss people off. If he hadn’t been going on for the last couple hours I’d be less inclined to hope for a banhammer, but at this point he’s just too tedious.
Fossil no she stopped stalking me finally after calling the police on her
Will Clemens:
Sure. Today.
You realize the suffragettes started over a hundred years ago, right?
Y’know, your persecution defense is wearing thin. I know gays are currently the most hated group in America, with only 53% support, but you’re trading on a lot of killing, a lot of hatred, a lot of history. And you using that to trivialize someone else’s rape? That’s abhorrent.
@MrFancyPants:
Off topic:
I think your user name is helping me not go completely ragey because every time I see it part of my brain starts singing:
“Chances are your pants are not as fancy as the pair
Of very fancy pants that Mr. Fancy Pants will wear…”
You’re an even bigger ignoramus than I thought if you think it’s summed up so easily.
No, trans people are the most beaten and killed in the USA, at least if we go by % rather than raw numbers… because I’m pretty sure raw numbers means we’re back to women.
And are you trying to name a syndrome after the suffragettes who supported WWI, or is this some other shit?
Says it all, really. It’s not often that someone shows up here to brag about their immorality, illegal acts and cruelty, as if they should have a medal for it.
I wrote about what happened to me. I would never (and have never) wish for anyone to be raped. Not even the man who raped and tried to murder me. That’s the depth of badness involved. You actively harm people and are proud of it. You don’t care that what you’re doing is immoral, nor do you care about the fallout of what you do. You should be steeped in shame.
All that said, you keep changing your non-stop list of non-sequitors so much, it’s best to take anything you say with a truckload of salt. All this may be nothing more than fantasy on your part. I sincerely hope that it is.
No Niglel it is factual
Jane Doe: I believe you. Thank you for coming forward. Thank you also PZ.
To everyone fighting back against the seemingly endless stream of MRAs: You really do make a difference. I suffer from PTSD after an abuse-filled childhood and back then I had no one to help me, no one fighting for me. Even though none of you know me (I’ve only commented here a few times, months ago), it feels like you all have my back. Thank you a thousand times over.
Quick point of order: Has this idiot actually identified as an MRA? I’m extraordinarily weary of pretending the little fucks have more power than they actually do. They ape normal sexist memes, this doesn’t mean most sexist asshats are actually one of them.
Having experienced neither, I can’t speak to what’s worse, but I will leave you with this thought:
Has anyone ever suggested to you that maybe you wanted to get stabbed and just changed your mind later?
Rutee, you are way off. Where are the Mathew Shepards of the Trans world and give me the list of the Suffragettes that died. Gay men are still the most beaten and killed and most trasgnder’s are male any ways
Will Clemens, you are a horrible writer and a horrible person.
No, it isn’t. Do you have any idea how many black people have died or been thrown in prison on the color of their skin? Black people alone? It sucks to be a minority – full stop. There isn’t really a ‘most discriminated against’. Anything else is just intersectional bullshit.
1777 comments so far. I’m almost afraid to refresh the page.
At least it has slowed down a tiny bit, so I won’t be 300 comments behind. And I’d just like to say Thank you.
To Jane Doe, first, then PZ. That took courage!
And to the Horde, especially Caine. Thanks for hanging in there. It hasn’t been easy reading; and dealing with the nay-sayers all day must have been incredibly difficult.
I’m in awe.
FossilFishy:
There is absolutely no reason to bring Ellenbeth into this. She’s not here, not a part of this thread, it’s not relevant, so please don’t do that.
@Rutee:
That’s a very good point. He’s made quite a few statements that have been already made, word for word, on MRA sites and in MRA online screeds, but that doesn’t mean he’s actively part of the movement.
YMMV, but I’m not losing sleep over anyone calling him an MRA. Walks like a duck, and all that, you see.
prax@1819:
Glad I could help lighten your mood in this otherwise awful thread of apologists and deniers!
Rutee let me see, your name calling and bashing rings a bell , white trash. Yeah thats the ticket.
Rutee@1824:
No, he hasn’t. His favoriting of Wooly Bumblebee on his facebook page, plus his pattern of speech and the topics he harps on are all consistent with that assumption, though. But you may be right, he may just be vanilla run-of-the-mill sexist idiot.
Not so clever.
Fuck you, Will. Stop with your shit. Rutee tried to be fair to you. More than most of us probably think you deserve.
You’re pretty fucking stupid if you think attacking and insulting the one person here who’s trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.
How the fuck do you manage to eat a bowl of cereal without gouging out your own eyes with the spoon or drowning in the milk?
PZ, can we get a clean-up here? Will Clemens needs to be taken out like the trash he is.
Caine I never mentioned Ellenbeth until you aske me if I had heard from her now did I ?
Will Clemens:
Context, dude. It’s important. I don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about here.
The unreliability of polygraphs? Rutee covered that in #1814. The fact that other groups have been the hated group of the day? Do I really need to cover the use of the word lynching in this thread?
Here’s some facts. The LGBT community has never had more support. This doesn’t discount the fact that LGBT folks aren’t under attack the world over, from Russia to several African countries. But support for LGBT relationships in the US is higher than it’s ever been, and it’s getting implemented into US policy, both domestic and foreign.
So, you have some kind of chip on your shoulder. You have some kind of ego problem that makes you think violating HIPAA is totes OK, as long as it’s you getting your vigilante justice. I get that.
But tell me, where am I wrong? That lynchings didn’t occur? That gays haven’t always been the most persecuted group? Where?
At least give me some context, so I can properly reply to your lame ass.
#1808 praxis: Don’t you realize it’s scientifically proven?
Oh I see now some people have pointed out that it’s not appropriate to refer to all the jerks in the thread as MRAs, which I did in my previous comment. I would like to apologize for that usage.
elltee:
I well remember you. I consider you part of the horde. We do have your back.
Rutee:
His favourites on his facebook indicate that he is a fan, if not a member of that little club.
*if you think it’s a good idea to start attacking and insulting
@1616:
Wow you’ve missed the point by a country mile. Yes, tu quoque is a fallacy if it is used to deny the truth of a claim, when the claim is merely descriptive and not comparative. When the claim is comparative, however, tu quoque is a valid argument; you can claim moral fault on my part but you can’t claim moral superiority to me if I am a thief but you are a murderer. And that is precisely the claim made in the skeptic community; that it is organized religion which contributed to the covering up of sex crimes in the Catholic Church, and things would be so much better without it. We’re doing so much better without organized religion???? No, the significance of the post and discussion haven’t eluded me; but I have no real power to change things, and neither do you. It’s extremely dismaying, disappointing, and discouraging. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Atheists/skeptics, it seems, aren’t immune from this dictum.
@1618:
Really??? You mean to tell me that this is not, precisely, what the leaders of the atheist/skeptic movement have been doing??? Bear in mind “we” doesn’t equate to “leaders of the atheist/skeptic movement” anymore than “Catholics” equates to “powerful members of the Catholic hierarchy”. There were and are plenty of Catholics who bemoaned the ineptitude of the hierarchy (many of whom filed suit). How did it get to this point if the leaders in atheism/skepticism hadn’t been precisely silencing victims and sweeping offenses under the rug???
Nigel Again according to the Southern Povery Law Center we are still the most beaten killed and discriminated and lacking 1700 state and federal rights in the vast majority of the states.
You’re right Caine. I dug around to see just what kind of troll we were dealing with here and their history came up. Dropped for good.
Will:
I’m almost positive that anti-trans violence is directed mostly at women. (Plus “transgender” is an adjective, not a noun.) And you might want to slow down your trigger finger so that the people who still want to bother engaging with you can figure out what the fuck you’re trying to say.
Also, just because it’s making me twitch to not know: what on earth do you mean by “white feather syndrome”? I can’t figure out what you’re talking about. White feathers handed out by suffragettes during WW1, sure. White feathers as a pacifist symbol, yes. But what is “white feather syndrome”, and what does it have to do with sexual orientation?
Uo HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO
Plus, you only are insisting bitches lie. It’s not like you called anyone names.
eigenperson@1840
One life size replica internet for you
Oh thank you Caine, that means a lot. I’m going to try to comment more often. There’s a great bunch here!
Does Rebecca Watson’s “Elevatorgate” count as the Big Bang that sent out ever widening shockwaves thru atheoskeptics/gamers/geeks communities out into the wider society? It seems that since then small squeaky wheels grinding away is leading to more and more exposure…dare I say momentum… against sexist(and its intertwined hates) privilege and the ‘banality of evil’ it supports
It’s all “Fasten your seatbelts, it’s going to be a bumpy night.” but with both named and anonymous women coming forward after finally trusting there is an audience that will listen through the screaming denial to their assault testimonials, this is definitely a change. Is it a sea change?
I’m grateful to the assault/harrassment survivors taking penultimate and ultimate steps to NOT shut up as the yawping squeals of the privileged would have them do. They’re up against it no matter what they do and yet it seems all the people that have come forward so far are after improving a community and safe spaces, not vengeance. Even anonymous testimonials have weight to them when they reveal a statistical trend in the data reported.
Whether enough people want to follow the evidence of that and the rest of the data, and want to do anything constructive rather than obstructive with the data is the big question on the table now.
@eigenperson #1840:
Holy shit that’s a bloody masterpiece.
From the formatting all the way down to “Dr. Apeshit” …that is some bloody fantastic snark.
:)
Ruttee did you know the majority of cross dressers are straight men ?
Incidentally, am I the only one who’s very uncomfortable with detailing his exploits in outing people on the internet in a thread where he’s also pushing to the release of the name of the woman involved in this case?
Anybody care to guess what he wants that name for?
Will Clemens
You are a complete asshole; you have nothing resembling morals, ethics, or basic empathy. It sickens me that you claim to be fighting on my behalf. Also, polygraphs? Seriously? Have you ever actually taken one? They’re trivially easy to spoof if you focus a little bit, and they’re even more useless than usual when used on someone in a state of severe emotional distress, because physical signs of emotional distress are what they measure.
@Assorted people who have shared their own experiences in an effort to educate the deliberately ineducable
I am deeply sorry about what happened to you, and you have such support as I can offer, which I admit is not a lot.
I really hope you’re just making shit up as you go along, because I don’t want you on my side. Ever. A transgender woman is a woman. A transgender man is a man. The fact that you don’t know that makes me even more leery of taking anything you say seriously.
octopod@1848:
OMG did he bring up “white feather syndrome”?! Okay, I am pretty confident in labeling this guy an MRA now. The “white feather” is one of their rallying symbols for all the perceived ills that they feel they’ve suffered at the hands of women. It’s complete bullshit.
LykeX @1855
I hadn’t put those two facts together, but now that you mention it, it does seem at least plausible that he’d be the kind of individual to try to smear someone because they went after his idol.
Leave it to a supposed* P.I. to have faith* in polygraph tests..
” Is there any evidence that the polygraph is really able to detect lies? The machine measures changes in blood pressure, pulse, and respiration rate. When a person lies it is assumed that these physiological changes occur in such a way that a trained expert can detect whether the person is lying. Is there a scientific formula or law which establishes a regular correlation between such physiological changes and lying? No. Is there any scientific evidence that polygraph experts can detect lies using their machine at a significantly better rate than non-experts using other methods? No. There are no machines and no experts that can detect with a high degree of accuracy when people, selected randomly, are lying and when they are telling the truth.”
http://www.skepdic.com/polygrap.html
*I do mean ‘supposed’ and ‘faith’ here..
… really? transvestite =/= transgendered person. That’s just fucking basic. If you don’t know what you’re actually talking about you need to STFU. Now.
The SPLC doesn’t say that.
PoC lack fair protection under the law – I don’t know how many rights that is when you actually start counting up the number of different legal rights across the states, but it’s a shit ton. 1700? Maybe, maybe not – PoC have had about 15 years of rights activism on Gay people, after all. But it’s not ‘nothing’. You are not, by any means of the imagination, the only minority to lack full federal and legal rights.
Will Clemens:
How many times do you have to miss the point?
You were bringing up a movement that is 80 years gone. Now you want to compare it to a modern assessment?
At least be consistent in your data!
And none of this matters anyway. If you want to continue this discussion about the relative discrimination of the LGBT movement vs. other historical movements, take it to the Thunderdome. It has no place here, a thread about the legitimate warning of women against a potential rapist.
And? Cross dressing isn’t the same thing.
Lyke I do not mention any ones name on the internet that i have outted after the case was closed and it was.
Dalillama:
You can easily beat a polygraph by knowing when to clench and release your anus.
Will, did you know that cross dressers are not the same as trans* folks?
Lyke it seems to me you are the one wanting to stir the pot when I do not want to mention that persons name.
Assuming that’s true, which I have no evidence of, what would transvestites have to do with transgender people?
Ooh, I can answer that!
You know, I had been hoping earlier that Will would be banned.
Now?
The longer he stays means I get to watch him unravel, bit by bit… comment by comment.
If it weren’t for the fact that he’s an odious piece of shit and everything he says is so steeped in bigotry and hatred I would almost be enjoying this.
No I did not I was telling fibs the entire time I am not really gay I am a straight man
You know us trolls, we love to pretend to be gay :)
And yes, since he’s talking about white feathers, the probability he’s an MRA approaches 1. It’s not that only MRAs know about that shit, they’re just the only ones stupid enough to conflate it with persecution.
Fuck, what a fucking surprise. Gay man doesn’t recognize “LGBT” refers to 3 other groups of people. I am fucking shocked.
This isn’t a game.
No, it isn’t. Rutee is not white and she’s certainly not trash of any sort. Your bigotry keeps showing, Cupcake. Also, a transvestite person is not the same as a transgender person. You’d think a big warrior of GLBT rights would know that.
I am actually a closeted lesbian, cant you tell by the haircut ?
@Will Clemens
The person whose name you want published is the woman who gave her testimony to PZ. That’s the one I’m referring to.
You explicitly asked for her to reveal her identity. You did this in the same thread where you’re talking about all the people you’ve personally harmed by revealing private information about them.
It’s obvious why you want the name. It’s no secret how shitstains like you operate.
I got raped at thirteen by a fucking Christian camp counselor. I know you think I’m making this shit up, and I don’t blame yall but I’ll share anyway for what it’s worth.
At that age, as is well known among males but rarely shared, sexuality hasn’t become that gender specific. All you ex- Boy Scouts know what I’m talking about. The encounter was more of a seduction, he promised to show me some stuff that was really exciting, and I’m all in on whatever is forbidden so I was the perfect mark.
There was some fondling then he raped me. If it had not been painful, I would not have thought much of it, but it was terrible. He only lasted about a minute, so that was lucky, and when it was over that motherfucker broke down in tears and begged my forgiveness, and starting praying, I shit you not.
He was absolutely mortified that I would snitch on him, and gave me 120 dollars, his week’s pay to keep silent. Big bucks for a thirteen year old.
Anyway, I got locked up a year later for being a juvenile delinquent and that episode actually worked in my favor because I knew I never wanted to go ‘there’ again. I hated gay people until I was in my forties and met all the wonderful people in the gay rights movement working at Pacifica.
I’m still a work in progress.
Ok, I personally have had enough, Fuck off.
I don’t know what the source is for the “9% false rape accuation” figure allegedly from the DOJ, but it sounds suspiciously like the 8% FBI figure given here, which is about unfounded, not false, accusations. What constitues “unfounded” differs between jurisdictions, and in some places appears to be utterly Biblical. Studies actually looking for falsehood skew lower.
But there’s not much sense in arguing with someone as divorced from reality, empathy, and the English language as Will.
Incidentally, it seems like some people think atheoskepticism is the Highlander or Dothraki politics, that if PZ can take down Shermer, then he’ll gain Shermer’s power and position. How else is he supposed to “gain” something from this?
I keep watching Will spew rapid-fire turd after turd after turd and all I can think is,
(ref. Parasite Rex)
Has anyone not read that the assailant is not threatening any action? But even if she was, statistics say she has ~2% likelihood of proving that it occurred. Stupid man that I am, I can see clearly why if I were in her shoes I might not want to go public with this. It might be like being raped a second time.
If you ask me – Shermer is getting off quite easy. Even if he were falsely accused, I don’t know why anyone should feel a bit of sympathy for him. False accusation of rape as reprehensible as that is still in no shape or form compares to rape itself. Either case, he will still run Skeptic, live his rich life, have his libertarian agnostic sycophants etc, but probably think twice about his behavior at future conferences, which is precisely the point.
Will Clemens, you are ‘way off topic here. You are putting your own twisted self all over a thread about women and rape. Please go to the Thunderdome http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/08/thunderdome-29/#respond if you want to talk about yourself and your agenda.
This thread is about the trouble that women have being taken seriously when they say they have been raped. They are often ignored and belittled. You, Will Clemens, are ignoring and belittling the very purpose of this thread, and all the women who are speaking up in it.
You, Will Clemens, need to get out of this thread. Go to the Thunderdome.
People in the Thunderdome will be happy to talk with you. This thread here is not about you, or your interests, or your group.
Will Clemens, go to the Thunderdome.
I am going there now, and writing something very insulting about you, Will Clemens.
Come on over and read it.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/08/thunderdome-29/#respond
Lyke , its not the same person trust me. I am talking about an older woman past 50
Oh and another FUCK YOU SCUMBAG to Will for playing Oppression Olympics.
To any lurkers, please note the lack of any evidence to support Will’s assertions. Whether it is being a PI, the murder rates of gay men, or rape statistics, he has yet to link to anything to back up his hateful views.
Speaking of which, I find it disheartening that someone who went through such a horrific assault and who defends oppressed queers does the latter through highly questionable ethics and displays the same hateful attitude toward women that many people have toward queers.
Back on topic, and off the idiot troll, there was a link posted to a forum with yet another person corroborating the victim’s story, in this case. It was posted here, but I’ve lost it in all the noise. Does anyone have it handy? Is it worth sending to PZ?
Fuck, camps are awful. I’m sorry you had to go through that shit as well.
@scooterskutre:
I am very sorry that happened to you. I hope your healing process keeps moving forwards for you.
But please, don’t ever say some of the things you’ve said in this thread EVER again. It’s not okay. It’s never okay. You’ve said some damaging, terrible things that have hurt other survivors. Not cool.
@MrFancyPants:1887 – http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=9417319#post9417319
MrFancyPants: Link is in #1556.
MrFancyPants: it was a link to JREF forums at #1556
Scooterskutre:
I do not think you are making shit up. At all. I believe you and I can’t tell you enough how sorry I am you were raped. Yes, most 13 year olds are sexually curious, and willing to explore a bit. That sure as hell is no excuse whatsoever for raping you. Being sexually curious is not a crime, it’s not wrong, and it’s not immoral.
Well, it looks like the boil has been well and truly lanced. Great admiration to those of you who are in this thread consistently mopping up the resulting gush of unpleasantness. I wonder if it will help us to start healing?
This kind of abuse of power is, I have begun to suspect, endemic in every group of people large enough to have any power. But maybe if any subculture has the remotest chance of behaving reasonably when these things come to light — of seeing the pernicious biases that always seem to stymie any attempt at improving these problems — it’d be a bunch of people like this, who have at the very least heard of things like the halo effect? I’d like to think that just having seen those things explained in the abstract would help in some way. I guess we’ll see.
In any case, I should also say that of course I believe the original post. I’d be a piss-poor Bayesian if I didn’t. And I’m wondering how I can help make the gossip mill a more effective tool for protecting new students and employees, since it seems to be the best tool currently available.
See, it’s not about tarring his name – I don’t give two fucks about his reputation. It’s about making that group of losers out to be an actual threat. It comes up a LOT, compared to how little they actually do.
Praxis what have I said that is so hurtful can youy give me quotes . I have been called every name in the book and it just slides right off my back.
Thanks, Pteryxx, eigenperson, & InitHello
And that is a problem. That you don’t care is readily apparent. Why on earth would be think better of you?
@Will Clemens
Is who not the same person? I’m just talking about two people; the woman mentioned in the OP and you. I’m talking about your history of disregard for people’s privacy, coupled with your desire to get identifying information on this woman.
I’m talking about you being a creepy stalker; a wannabe harasser. I’m talking about the very high probability that your main objective with your presence in this thread is to acquire another victim, so you can blow your load over how much you can make her suffer.
I am, in short, talking about how unbelievably vile a person you are.
Praxis:
Seconded. Scooterskutre, you have no reason to be such an asshole toward all the other people who have raped or sexually assaulted in this thread. Don’t do it anymore. Thank you.
Night every one it was a fun debate but I need sleep. This old lesbian has to go by some crocs tomorrow and buy an old Helen Reddy album. ” I am woman hear me Roar ” LOL
Dear Jane Doe,
I don’t think it’s likely you’ll ever read this comment since I could barely get this far through the hateful comments and I’m not even personally affected. But I want to thank you for doing what you did. You have made us safer. Thank You. I hope you find out one way or another how many of us here support you, and how many of us are grateful.
Sincerely.
Nigel @1839:
Something else I just noticed about our immoral, hate-filled pissant–for all his talk of defending queers, I consistently see him refer to GAY MEN. But as a sexist douchecanoe I should not expect him to stick up for lesbians or trans*women and men.
It’s all about TEH MENZ.
Well Will is a fan of The Men’s Rights Initiative, so I think we can safely assume that if he’s not a full on MRA he’s at least sharing a vast majority of their views.
That’s one hell of a misplaced modifier.
skooterskutre:
Not thinking you made this up at all. Fuck. All I can say is, “You did not deserve this.”
That is a motto by which we all could live. Seriously.
Eigen- don’t be alarmed or anything, but I may love you.
Tony:
Or bisexuals. Or asexuals. Or Intersexuals. Anyone, really.
Will Clemens @1826:
Er, wha? Shouldn’t it be 50/50? Citation, please.
eigen@1905:
Heh. I very nearly said something similar.
Tony, surely you’re not a sexist douchecanoe! ;)
It seems, from the sudden flood of victims of assault and harassment coming forward to both tell their stories and to warn others of people to stay the hell away from, that there is going to be a huge change in the relative safety of cons and other events in this community.
It will, of course, widen the “rifts” that already exist, but I think from a public viewpoint it’s going to be crystal clear that on one side of the rift there are a whole lot of people who are undeniably terrible human beings who would rather see rape survivors vilified than have the attackers face the consequences of their assaults.
It kills me that it takes those jackasses denying sexual assault and victim blaming rape survivors to make that so clear to the average person, when all the behaviour coming from that side, up to now, has been so damaging to the people who have had to suffer through it.
I know I won’t be attending any cons or meetings in the skeptical or atheist community until it is very clear that the pitters and their ilk will not be welcomed and until I know for sure that “rape denialist” and “skeptic” can’t be assumed to be synonymous.
#1907: I’m not alarmed, unless you happen to be a white male who is in demand on the skeptical lecture circuit….
#1909 hjhornbeck: He doesn’t actually know what transgender means. Asking him for a citation for his ignorance isn’t too helpful.
Will makes me wonder if the Y makes us men more prone to sociopathy? Yikes.
Will Clemens:
Don’t you ever fucking joke about Helen Reddy. She is more my childhood than C.W. McCall could ever be.
@Rutee 1895:
I understand your point. I was approaching it from another angle, but I now see where you were coming from.
Nigel:
It’s also a motto that Scooterskutre could take more seriously, rather than taking potshots in a thread full of rape and sexual assault survivors fighting a flood of apologists. Having been a victim of rape is not a defense to being an asshole to other victims. It should be reason to show more empathy.
I feel awful that Scooterskutre is yet another to be counted in the legion. That said, I will continue to prioritize those who have been raped and sexually assaulted, and that includes making sure that other victims don’t add to the insult and injury pile.
Will Clemens @1901:
Debates are when two equally-informed but opposed people attempt to convince each other of the validity of their views. You consider
to be equally as informed as
You really are on a completely different planet than the rest of us.
Jane Doe: I believe you. There are a lot of us who don’t have the courage to name our rapist; I applaud your courage in doing so.
Horde: You all make me so happy, breaking apart the weak, sexist, racist, ableist, transphobic arguments. You all give me hope and make me feel just a little bit safer.
@1914. I too like Helen Reddy. If I have a few drinks I might admit to liking ABBA. Alot more maybe Styx. KISS -that is a bridge too far.
Skooter- I add my voice to those who believe you. Camp really is awful and there is no accountability. I for one believed that whatever happens at camp stays at camp. It was a whole other word that was easily compartmentalized. Christian camps seem to have the least oversight so long as they are churning out little believers. I am sorry this happened to you.
Nothing wrong with liking ABBA, Mama Mia was a fun movie, especially the number at the end.
To my surprise, there doesn’t seem to be any really convincing study on the MTF:FTM ratio. A Swedish study showed a 1.4:1 ratio for those requesting GRS and 1:1 for those going through with it, and a study using Google AdWords showed a 1.29:1 ratio, but neither of these studies seem likely to capture the entire population accurately.
Pfft. I’m reminded of every time some fuckwit misogynist shows up to an internet meeting of feminists and is like “WHAT HO, MY SISTERS! HOW CAN WE ADVANCE OUR PLANS TO KILL ALL MEN”. Fools don’t even give the right countersign. Amateur Hour, every hour.
Caine:
Damned straight. I pulled that out and commented not jut because it’s an important idea, but because scooterskutre (damn, there’s gotta be a diminutive that is respectful and concise) has demonstrated, to my mind, a growth in the last few comments. If not a growth, than perhaps an outreach. Or whatever it is we do when we realize we might be wrong.
So, that quote was perhaps a hope that skutre might turn out to be One Of Us. Or at least, not nearly the asshole as first presented.
I might be wrong, of course. My wife tells me I give folks the benefit of the doubt long before and long after they deserve it. But i guess that’s what makes me an optimist. (Not claiming that optimism is good — I hold out hope for most trolls, and most of those turn out to be just trolls, so my history doesn’t support my optimism.)
Wow. It’ll take me days to get through all these posts, but I’ve gotta take my hat off to the Horde. All of you, from Caine and Nigel to Rutee Katreya and MrFancyPants, have done a wicked job of pushing back against the haters and deniers that could have filled up this thread. All of you are a major reason why I keep coming back to this blog, year after year.
Keep being awesome! And let’s all keep up the pressure to make the skeptical/atheist community the best damn community there is.
Praxis said “…warn others of people to stay the hell away from …” and that’s what I thought the point of PZ’s post was: “Don’t go drinking with Michael Shermer.”
How that ruins his life in any way comparable to the way rape ruins a life is absolutely out of my comprehension. Sure, some people may snub him, but it seems there are others who are going to be buying him drinks. If he somehow loses all his speaking engagements and all his prestige, he’s still alive, healthy and a white male, with money in the bank, and a “problem” that many folks won’t consider to be a problem at all.
Outraged defending of Shermer is bizarre. Outraged defending of victims is what the world needs.
Good work, good people.
Where the fuck did that come from? Where did I EVER denigrate a rape victim. I don’t denigrate rape victims, let’s be perfectly clear on that point. My inquiry was if any of yall have had sex when you were sober. Judging from the feedback, I assume I made a bad joke, or maybe touched a nerve. How sexually hung up are yall? WTF is this, Christian Mingle?
Do you actually know how to read? Can you follow a discourse without making horrendous logical fallacies? Has Michael Shermer soured your skeptical radar?
Jeez, we have bigger fish to fry in TX. Wendy Davis for Governor!
FFS ban
Any feminist worth their salt would know we wait until AFTER the drum circle and bra burning before cackling about our misandrist plans to spermjack all the mens, making them obsolete.
Yeah fuck you too
Probability of being 100% bullshit troll up 15 pts
Pteryxx 1882
No idea, Pteryxx, but it would be awesome to own one! I can think of a few targets.
Also, I am so impressed with Will, there. Announces he will not accept hearsay because it is always inadmissible, but requires lie detector tests because they are … always inadmissible.
There have been several ‘skeptic’ posts here suggesting that PZ and the Horde are reacting ‘religiously’.
Given that our best example of religious behaviour is of churches and congregations who cover up for the sexual crimes and misdemeanours of the clergy, it’s clear that naming names is doing the very opposite of religions. That it’s airing dirty linen that the religious prefer to keep hidden.
I suppose a question the anti-PZ skeptics should ask themselves is: why did clerical abuse continue for so long? Why, when it was reported up the organisational chain, was nothing done? Why did the laity, where there were suspicions, not speak out about this earlier, while the abuse was ongoing? Why did it wait so long, in some cases until predators were dead, for abuse to come out into the open?
When you have answered those questions maybe you might have an inkling as to why some of us here feel it is necessary to bring up names now, and not wait for an age in the hope that a demonstrably broken system might creak into gear and serve justice.
I haven’t anything to add to this discussion. In fact, I haven’t anything to add this community, and I realize that now. It would never and has never occurred to me to put someone I wanted to have sex with off of their ease, or compromise their safety. I have always preferred good friends to indifferent lovers – and the idea of violating someone else to do nothing more than fulfill an urge or a need for power or whatever the hell is as repugnant to me as bestiality or eugenics. If it can’t be friendly, I won’t do it. I don’t even understand those who would apologize or stand up for perpetrators of those crimes. I feel that such people are in collusion with the perpetrators and should be similarly punished. These things are not hard – it is easy not to harass or violate. There can be no excusing of behavior; only accusation, investigation, trial, and settlement. I can’t add anything here, but you can bet the farm I won’t be bothering with any of these organizations any longer. I’ve no choice but do things on my own, and be my own voice. Keep up the good work, PZ, Chris, I look forward to all your posts, but I’m pretty much permanently sick of my parent species.
scooterskutre:
You should probably stop now.
No matter what you may have been through you don’t get to act like an asshole here. The problems with what you’ve said were clearly outlined to you shortly after your objectionable statements.
Please go back an re-read the comments made to you.
I want to share something actually relevant to the thread, but it comes with a trigger warning.
My great-aunt’s husband was a respected foreman in public and a sexual abuser in private. He would go after women in our family (and who knows who else) whenever they were alone with him. So the word went out to women in the family, in whispers, to never be alone with him…but his predilections were never made public. That would have been too much of a scandal and would have broken dear auntie’s heart, you see. So, invariably, a woman who hadn’t gotten the message, or had slipped up and forgotten, would get backed into a corner and felt up, and this was allowed to go on for *decades*. He molested a couple of women who were pregnant and another of my great aunts who was in her 80s. When he finally died , I could barely contain my disgust during the funeral, and to this day I can’t help wondering how many women *outside* the family he abused because of our family’s contribution to the code of silence and the rape culture.
Victims: Do not be silent, refused to be shamed, and speak out! Others: Listen and be willing to believe! Together we *can* change things!
Scooter and Will are clearly just trying to stir shit. Might be a time to ignore the trolls.
I’m sorry… I confess to some skimming of this thread, but I missed the part where the topic went from allegations of rape to Opressed-A-Thon 2013: Dogfight of the Downtrodden! See the Butt-pirates get beatdowns! Watch the Bitches be brutalized!. I thought that wasn’t until Sunday SUNDAY SUNDAY!
It’s not a contest Will.You’re not special because you’re gay. You’re not specialer than the Ls, Bs, and Ts in LGBT. You’re not specialer than suffragettes. You’re not specialer than female victims of rape. You’re not specialer than anyone. All the victims deserve support. Every person should be safe. The point is to end the violence and inequality period.
Yeah let’s not presume anything Willy says is factual
Friendly – The sentiment is good, but your last line is problematic.
We victims will start speaking up when the punishment of the people we’re supposed to speak up against is worth the huge damage done to us personally as a result of speaking up.
In short, right now it’s not worth it. Look at this thread. If the accuser in the OP were named…
Rutee Katreya 1923
Have to disagree. Some amateurs have smarts.
scooterskutre:
Yeah, it was a bad joke. I suspect you hadn’t read the 1500+ messages that came before. Not that I blame you; that’s a metric fuckton of messages. But a damned high percentage was taken up with discussion of what constituted rape while drunk. So your quip at #1543 was a bit untimely, and your followup at #1732 didn’t help.
I think it was all timing.
Honestly: yes. Well, not Shermer precisely, but the whole central idea of sexual overstep + sexual abuse within the community. The blowback to a simple statement like “Guys, don’t do this” has been incredible, and very wearying. It’s perhaps made us a bit jaded.
And this thread? It’s been of the fucking hook with, “Is this [arbitrary scenario] rape?” mostly involving alcohol. So your #1543 seemed a bit, well, assholeish. I believe now you were just making a joke. (And one that should’ve been funny, under normal circumstances.) But right now? Not so much a joke.
I dunno. Dismissing a rape victim’s story vs. Wendy Davis as Governor? One is more morally repugnant. The other is historically distressing. I think I’m going to vote with my current morality — we don’t dismiss rape stories. Not without evidence.
Given that, Wendy Davis is terrifying.
@scooterskutre
Let’s just recap for a moment:
That might reasonably be interpreted as a joke, albeit a tasteless one, especially in this context. After being slapped down, you don’t take the hint that it’s not funny. Instead, you double down:
And even now, instead of admitting that you screwed up, you keep sticking with your “it’s just a joke, don’t be a prude” routine. These facts alone make you a jackass. You’re belittling the fact that alcohol is the go-to date rape drug and you’re belittling the emotional responses of the people in this thread.
But then, as if in an effort to remove all doubt, you finish it off with this:
You’re acting like a grade A asshole. You don’t get the benefit of the doubt. Change your behavior or get the fuck out of here.
*points up* Called it.
False dilemma aka the “I can’t tie my shoes because I took a poo” argument.
Maybe another way of saying it is if being a fucking obnoxious boor who tries to coerce women into sex via alcohol is your game, it definitely ain’t cool, probably is criminal – you might wanna try celibacy or a frontal lobotomy.
@Sophia: I’m not saying that women have to self-identify. I’m trying to support Jane Doe’s decision to speak out, even anonymously, as a way of preventing others from being hurt. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear.
/delurking
I am curious now Will, do use dowsing rods or local psychics for lost and found cases?
Friendly – Thanks. Just have to be sure about these things, Jane Doe is intensely courageous but she may suffer intensely if her identity is compromised, which it very well may be if someone involved initiates legal action.
Her decision is amazing, I fully support anyone else who wishes to come forward and will fight as much as I can manage to protect them. I was simply pointing out that the wording “Victims: Do not be silent, refused to be shamed, and speak out!” is a command, not an invitation, and has dire, dire consequences. It also has a flipside – connotations that if a victim doesn’t speak out, they aren’t doing the right thing.
Your intentions are very good, and your sentiment noble, but you can’t tell victims what to do. Especially considering the circumstances and consequences.
The one that keeps me skeptical, or the one that says “I care about the skeptical community”. No to the former, and no to the latter; he’s too late for the latter.
His facebook supports it. And it’s not like gay dudes don’t pull this sort of shit w/ other oppressed groups.
Who put you in charge Lyke X. I eat punkass loudmouths like you for lunch. My facebook is in the title, I have a radio show and a podcast, my podcast handle is friend me up and let’s see how well you do on the air.
scooterskutre:
+1 for Grace Jones. Good call.
-5 for avoiding the posts, and not addressing the points raised.
You’re making it hard to give you any benefit of any doubt here.
scooter-kpft is the skype handle. I put it in brackets and it didn’t post, looking forward to hearing from you
Why would anyone waste time with yet another sexist leftist?
@Sophia: It was meant to be a rallying cry and/or encouragement, not a command. I certainly don’t intend to tell anyone what to do or think or feel or say. My apologies that I seem to be expressing myself so poorly on this score.
psst, y’all. google “1700 state and federal laws”
@Jadehawk:
Oh hell no.
That’s just … ugh.
Hello again. And…. Goodbye. I can’t do these troll fights without getting to the point where my reason is replaced with the desire to shout one obscenity after another. Toss a fresh Scooter on the barbie for me, y’all.
My google search history is clearly interfering with the intended results. I’m just getting comments on an article about how we’re supposed ot ‘forgive’ Warren because he’ll make our lives easier politically (which is shit – he’s coming to us hat in hand because he knows he’s fucked)
seconded
We are still getting the defenders of rapists on this thread with their specious arguments and victim blaming.
It is blaming the victims because their reports are not believed. It is blaming the victim because they were made drunk. It is blaming the victim for telling others about their experience. Over here in the UK we have heard all this crap in defense of the serial abuser, rapist and pedophile Jimmy Savile whose noxious career was allowed to continue because no-one believed the reports of the victims.
Speaking of Jimmy Savile, why are we still putting up with that stinking pile of vomit called Will Clemens?
This is a person who has admitted various criminal acts, openly supports anti-equality causes and uses fragmentary statistics. He belittles the psychological and physical tortures that rape victims suffer by claiming he has suffered worse in complete and airy ignorance of the fallacy of that statement.
Here is a man who supports the pseudoscience of the “lie detector” who is trying to lecture us on what is right …
why are you worried about that, when there are women being stoned to death in the Middle East? That’s an even bigger fish to fry, and therefore frying your fish is an invalid use of the fryer.
Jadehawk:
I get exactly one result when quoted — a comment in a thread titled “Melissa Etheridge to gays: Turns out Rick Warren’s a great guy, so let’s let it go.” Which is strangely disgusting on its own.
I don’t see a link to Will Clemens. But maybe my google-fu is weak.
Wait. By “link to Will Clemens,” I don’t mean a URL. I mean some kind of association.
Egg-zaggedely. I would really like an explanation to this.
Unless you’re one of those who think some nebulous “We” have already tried, convicted and executed Michael Shermer. In which case I’d have to see a body, because I’m skeptical like that.
I’m so very sorry. I want to be your friends. I fucked up. You all have bravery than me..You are the strongest woman on the internet. You know it I believe ….or at least I hope you do. We, males, have done despicable harm to you. You know that I’m sure. We were supposed to be there. Whether rhetorically or physically. We fucked up. My apologies can’t erase that. You are wonderful beautiful woman. Don’t you ever forget that. I cannot be on yourside properly. I want to be. I desire to be. But, males are incapable of understanding your paint. whether it is simple ignorance or the ego of men…here we are. I am sorry. I truly am. You all have done me better than anyone else. thanks for being conscious of your situation. I wasn’t and I properly hurt people because of it. I wont do it agian. First and foremost I will list to you all
They are commemorated every year on Nov. 20th.
no.
liar. here’s what the SPLC actually says:
not “gay men” or even “gays”. “LGBT people”. And the 1700 number refers to a claim by Marriage Equality Rhode Island (not SPLC) about the number of rights conferred by marriage, which again affects at least some trans people and that’s in addition to the specific rights and legal protections trans people lack. also:
that’s cuz i can’t write. was supposed to be “1700 state and federal rights”
General Ingrate, You cannot see the body of the executed Shermer because like Jesus he was resurrected and taken bodily into heaven where he will intercede for those whose names have been blackened by the Hellspawn of the dread demon Myers.
All you have to do is believe …
Yes but did the POLICE investigate? Huh? How can we know if there’s a crime if the POLICE didn’t declare it so?
I never got raped. I never suffered that trauma. The closest I cam is my best friend. Which is, needless, to say far less than you ever gone through. My best friend got drunk and was feeding a woman drink…that I saw and did nothing. After I left he tried to sleep with her. He was drunk. She was drunk. The difference was that he consented….she did not. Yet he kept going. If it was not for my other friends she would have been raped. I did nothing. I later tried to get him to recognize the seriousness of the situation. But that was as an outsider. Someone who trusted in his own friends more than the concerns of actual woman. I am sorry. Really really much. I cannot make up for my priority to my friends over you. Never. But I can least support you all. You are brave keep it up. You are better than the lot of us. Men have failed you. Perhaps someday we can make it up to you….even if we don’t deserve it.
Aha!
Wow, Willy sure has been a busy little troll…
even if some event organizer somewhere heard that as “don’t invite him to your events”, that’s far from ruining anything for him since the large skeptics organizations aren’t going to do shit. They don’t do blacklists, after all, at least not for sexual misconduct. So he might lose a wee tiny percentage of his current event invitations, and that’ll be all.
I’ve been a reader for a long time, but this is my first time commenting.
I just wanted to add my voice of support: firstly to Jane Doe for coming forward at substantial risk to herself; I believe you.
Secondly for those like Caine and others wading through this comment thread against the same objections, obfuscations, and irrelevant “concerns”: Your ability to power through and continue to make your points both effectively and elegantly is impressive and admirable. Like others who have commented, its the people who are regulars here who have made me rethink my privilege and biases over the last few years and made me a better person for it. So for whatever a random person-on-the-internet’s thanks are worth, you have them. You all make a difference, don’t let anyone tell you differently.
I hesitate to suggest this because it would be a lot of work, but it would make this discussion (which reappears every time rape is mentioned) marginally more efficient, though probably not any more pleasant, if someone would collect all the standard nonsense which the MRAs/rape apologists/whatever come and say, and put together one big long wall-o-text page somewhere with proper HTML anchors to each point and counterpoint, using the best phrasings available for each one. Then when the next Will Clemens appears and starts to spout, instead of telling them to read X hundred posts, we can just give them a link directly to the entirely-predictable question and its answer, and know, immediately, when they fail to show any signs of having read it, that they are definitely trolls and not worth trying to engage, rather than having this overpowering urge to argue with people who aren’t going to change their minds.
Of course, having a concise, accurate answer isn’t going to change Willful Ignorance’s mind any more than having six people answer him in exasperation, but at least it would help cope with the rage if it was easy to give a canned really good response.
(Incidentally, I’m not going to bother trying to look at Facebook, but: is there anything on his page which even remotely suggests that his whole “I’m a married blind gay PI who spent years in a coma” story is true? Everything he has said has made me more and more skeptical that he is even remotely similar to who he claims to be, even before I noticed the Facebook stuff.)
@1750 Caine,
Thank you for your kind words. The experiences of Jane Doe, yourself, and many others are far worse, but thank you.
@1909 hjhornbeck,
It doesn’t seem to be 50/50 at all. There are apparently more transsexual women than men. I don’t know why.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism#Prevalence
/OT
Thanks for the google idea, Jadehawk. It was interesting indeed.
Be right back. I have to scrub down my motherboard now
With the caveat that this is politifact, here’s the explanation of the number 1700: http://www.politifact.com/rhode-island/statements/2011/apr/17/bill-fischer/same-sex-marriage-advocate-says-full-marriage-equa/
Oh, he was a busy little troll. I like how he calls Sandra Booker a homophobe for… nothing. She says absolutely nothing about the plight of gay people.
I recall when you used to be a regular. Perhaps at that time, it wasn’t the local consensus that anyone using that phrase had outed themselves as a vacuous fuckwit.
This is a really nasty thread. If Shermer has done something, then the person involved should file a criminal complaint or at least provide sufficient detail from her own mouth to form an opinion of her account. Just throwing out this hearsay is pretty appalling and obviously defamatory if untrue.
drxym
let me guess, didn’t read the thread?
Fuck off, drxym. At least read the OP before you open your gob, since it answers why there is no criminal complaint and why the victim doesn’t want to come forward and speak “from her own mouth”. And you can educate yourself as to why these things might be, were you to take the time to read the comment thread in full. But you can’t, can you? It’s just so much easier to drop your uninformed opinion like a turd at the end of the thread. So yeah, fuck off.
@dryxm: We have been over and over and over “she should have gone to the cops” about sixteen times now. It’s not “hearsay” when PZ is posting her firsthand account of what happened and she’s under no obligation to press charges if the prospect of what would have followed (and would now follow) that understandably terrifies her. Look, I’m not asking you to read 2000 comments, but maybe just enough of them to hit the first two or three instances where this was dealt with?
@ friendly,
It is hearsay to us, but that only matters in court. And even there, a great deal of hearsay may still be admissible as evidence.
FFS…
From the OP:
Update @ Caine:
Remember how I said ‘it’ll take white people longer to drop the lynching metaphor because of Westerns”? I was apparently right, going by this Felicity jackass on the “It could never happen to her” thread. I thought I was joking.
Actually drxym, I AM asking you to read all the comments – all 1979 before yours. It might give you a better idea of why people here might be pissed off at explaining the same thing over and over.
@Lyn: Yes, all of what was reported in the OP is “hearsay” to us, but when drxym says “throwing out hearsay,” the implication is that what Jane Doe had PZ post is “hearsay” to her, and in the case of her own experiences with Shermer that is decidedly not true.
Lyn@1984:
Indeed, your post at 1757 along those lines was enlightening to me. Thanks for that, btw.
OK, Friendly, I stand corrected. The sentence had no subject explicitly and my finely-tuned lawyer brain said*, well that has to be PZ he means as who would be so dim as to say a person’s direct statement of her own experience is hearsay?
I guess I know who now, thanks.
*that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
Glad to be of help, Mr. Fancy Pants. I litigated for 25 years and if you didn’t know your hearsay, you didn’t know shit.
Anytime you can’t get to sleep, just ask me about the various exceptions.
I was member of a RDF affiliated Atheist group who covered up a rape of a member by another group member.
I’m convinced this is a pervasive problem within our community that has not been addressed.
drecks – every fucking page of these comments has had some rape apologist like you saying the same thing and every time it has been shown to be the same pile of merde. you either lack reading comprehension or you are just trying to confuse matters
Now take your opinion where it will be welcome, I suggest the Slymepit but I suspect you may already be a member.
Finally. I read through all the pages (well, skipping some comments here and there, it was a bit much).
A huge thanks to everyone fighting the good fight.
doodlebird@1992:
You’re right, of course. It’s a problem in society, of which our community is a small subset. At the very least, we can dispel this ridiculous notion that skeptical and atheist people are somehow immune to the ills from which our society suffers. Clearly it’s not so, because we do.
Just finally caught up – it was around 900 or so last time I looked, then I went and killed a lot of things in Mass Effect 3 for several hours, to come back and finding Mighty Caine still standing firm on the bridge holding back the festering masses, with ample help from a host of Hordelings.
You folks are awesome.
Caine…you’re a fucking superhero, y’know that? You leap tall fallacies in a single bound, are faster with a link than a speeding search engine, and the slings and arrows (if I might do a little MC Metaphor act) just bounce right off your Bracelets of Truth. I’m so fucking glad you’re on our side.
Thank you, all of you awe-inspiring Hordelings, for your amazing comments, your stamina, and your commitment to hitting the people you’re aiming at, and no one else, as much as possible. This trans woman appreciates it, deeply, even if she can’t hang in on a 2000-comment thread and battle like the rest of you.
I feel the need to delurk quickly here… I did read the OP and more than a 1000 comments here before going to bed last night and I see there’s 900+ more comments that I will get through, but I have to say a word.
Jane Doe(s): I do believe you… so sorry.
PZ: thanks for stepping up.
Tone trolls: what you consider to be a bad atmosphere or a disgusting place because of the foul language, others —like me— find it refreshing to see assholes be called assholes… you’re not being beat up or assaulted here, just take on yourself: you may very well be an asshole on this subject. We’ve all been or will be assholes on certain topics and the omen is on us to change, not deny it because, you know, it hurts to be called an asshole. If those words hurt you than you are admitting that words can hurt. So please realize that some people, who have been victims of abuse will also be hurt by things like “a woman testimony is not evidence”, for example.
Über-skeptics and Über-assholes: it may indeed be one of the rare case where the rape allegations are false and either PZ or those anonymous women are lying but you know what? If it turns out to be the case, as unlikely as it seems to me, than I would simply change my mind and won’t keep any bad feelings against Shermer… And what would have happened? I will have, for some amount of time, hated Shermer… that’s all.
But if it’s true and you didn’t believe it, the consequences are quite different: it means you sided with the powerful side of this story against someone (and quite likely many women) who actually were assaulted/raped. They actually suffered and your denial would aggravate this suffering.
I’m not expressing myself very well (English isn’t my first language) so I don’t know if I made myself clear… sorry if I didn’t. I hope I’m not saying something really stupid but could it be a good case for some sort of Pascal’s wager? If you believe the story and you turn out to be wrong than there’s not much consequences for Shermer because if it turns out you’re wrong it’s because he has been exonerated. At the end you sided with a liar, but for good reasons.
But if you don’t believe the story and turn out to be wrong than you actually perpetuated rape culture, sided with a disgusting individual and rapist and aggravated the suffering of innocent women.
(As I said, if this is stupid, I’m sure someone will tell me… after all I may be an asshole and if nobody tells me so, I may remain one).
I posted back on page 1 that I believe part of the reason that why these charges against skeptical/atheist luminaries is coming our is because the community is far more likely to be supportive of the victim – to which I might add, far more able to defend the victim.