Hmm. On the whole Craig things.. It might be a bad thing, on some level, use their own tactics, but.. imagine if we had a PT Barnum sort too, but peddling reality, not fake mermaids (or arks, as the case may be)…
“They’re treating teaching like here’s a list of facts that you’re going to repeat by rote.”
Up through high school I had to really pay close attention to ever catch the moments where the teachers did anything else. I really can’t blame people that got through high school thinking that’s all teaching is. I had a lot of teachers that definitely tried to take advantages of the right moments for the ‘how to think’ lessons when one on one, but most of the time students needed to make a big intuitive leap themselves to stop viewing a class as just rote memorization of facts.
slathamsays
I listened to this just now and when discussing the tactics employed by YEC promoters (to lie and obfuscate) and their audiences (to hear only what they want to hear), I have to wonder why you are eager to participate in the debate with them. What are your goals? I can only envision two positive outcomes that you could be hoping for:
1. To bring awareness of the science side, and of the accessibility of science, to a broader audience (not the debate audience, but through the local media — a sort of “we’re here” along the lines of atheist billboards).
2. To go toe-to-toe with YEC jerks to help people who already dislike Ken Ham et al satisfy their urge to see him publicly humiliated.
From my perspective, even though I enjoy watching the demise of creationists on stage, I don’t see #2 as sufficient justification for giving Ham or his PhD friends any legitimacy. As for #1, I think the outside demonstration does a much better job than a debate in achieving that goal.
I’ve mentioned this on another couple of threads already, but I suspect that bringing the debate to the actual lesson plans (rather than YEC versus evolution wrt established science) is the best way to get the right message across. I would like to know, for example, how a “teach both sides” approach would work in the context of that damned grade 4 test. I would like the attendees of this thing to be confronted with just how inadequate their lessons are for their children. A discussion focused on the science won’t properly achieve this. Ramble mutter…. Thanks for reading.
Jacob Schmidtsays
I listened to this just now and when discussing the tactics employed by YEC promoters (to lie and obfuscate) and their audiences (to hear only what they want to hear), I have to wonder why you are eager to participate in the debate with them.
Anecdote time.
A friend of mine recently converted to christianity from atheism (he had no justifications for doing so and told me he didn’t care if he was right). I once spent the day with him and, as per his routine, I attended his church’s “worship practice”. It was dull. After everything was over, there was a bit of a social. During the social, I noticed one young man (16-17) discussing science and proclaiming his love for it. Given the church I was in, I was dubious. I had once attended an informal debate about evolution at this church; the YECs formed a half circle around me. There was about 9 people against me, and that was just the adults (the children under 16 were in a seperate room having their own debate goofing off). Since this church was strongly creationist, I wasn’t about to believe the young man about his love for science.
Several weeks later, I saw him on the bus. He was sitting with a friend of his, this time discussing how ridiculous YECs are. So this young man, despite attending a YEC church, rejected creationism strongly. He was able to see through their lies, despite being a member of the general YEC community.
The capacity for critical thought clearly exists within the community at large, even if it’s supressed under specific circumstances. Further, there are people within the communities who are doubtful of what’s being preached or aware of the fallacies being used, even if they still believe to some extent. These are the people we hope to address; they are Ken Ham’s fans, or they’re family members of Ham’s fans who are likely to be dragged to the debate out of familial or community obligation.
Don’t give up on the YEC community. They shouldn’t all be reduced to “hearing only what they want to here”; we just only hear about the ones that do.
Hmm. On the whole Craig things.. It might be a bad thing, on some level, use their own tactics, but.. imagine if we had a PT Barnum sort too, but peddling reality, not fake mermaids (or arks, as the case may be)…
“They’re treating teaching like here’s a list of facts that you’re going to repeat by rote.”
Up through high school I had to really pay close attention to ever catch the moments where the teachers did anything else. I really can’t blame people that got through high school thinking that’s all teaching is. I had a lot of teachers that definitely tried to take advantages of the right moments for the ‘how to think’ lessons when one on one, but most of the time students needed to make a big intuitive leap themselves to stop viewing a class as just rote memorization of facts.
I listened to this just now and when discussing the tactics employed by YEC promoters (to lie and obfuscate) and their audiences (to hear only what they want to hear), I have to wonder why you are eager to participate in the debate with them. What are your goals? I can only envision two positive outcomes that you could be hoping for:
1. To bring awareness of the science side, and of the accessibility of science, to a broader audience (not the debate audience, but through the local media — a sort of “we’re here” along the lines of atheist billboards).
2. To go toe-to-toe with YEC jerks to help people who already dislike Ken Ham et al satisfy their urge to see him publicly humiliated.
From my perspective, even though I enjoy watching the demise of creationists on stage, I don’t see #2 as sufficient justification for giving Ham or his PhD friends any legitimacy. As for #1, I think the outside demonstration does a much better job than a debate in achieving that goal.
I’ve mentioned this on another couple of threads already, but I suspect that bringing the debate to the actual lesson plans (rather than YEC versus evolution wrt established science) is the best way to get the right message across. I would like to know, for example, how a “teach both sides” approach would work in the context of that damned grade 4 test. I would like the attendees of this thing to be confronted with just how inadequate their lessons are for their children. A discussion focused on the science won’t properly achieve this. Ramble mutter…. Thanks for reading.
Anecdote time.
A friend of mine recently converted to christianity from atheism (he had no justifications for doing so and told me he didn’t care if he was right). I once spent the day with him and, as per his routine, I attended his church’s “worship practice”. It was dull. After everything was over, there was a bit of a social. During the social, I noticed one young man (16-17) discussing science and proclaiming his love for it. Given the church I was in, I was dubious. I had once attended an informal debate about evolution at this church; the YECs formed a half circle around me. There was about 9 people against me, and that was just the adults (the children under 16 were in a seperate room
having their own debategoofing off). Since this church was strongly creationist, I wasn’t about to believe the young man about his love for science.Several weeks later, I saw him on the bus. He was sitting with a friend of his, this time discussing how ridiculous YECs are. So this young man, despite attending a YEC church, rejected creationism strongly. He was able to see through their lies, despite being a member of the general YEC community.
The capacity for critical thought clearly exists within the community at large, even if it’s supressed under specific circumstances. Further, there are people within the communities who are doubtful of what’s being preached or aware of the fallacies being used, even if they still believe to some extent. These are the people we hope to address; they are Ken Ham’s fans, or they’re family members of Ham’s fans who are likely to be dragged to the debate out of familial or community obligation.
Don’t give up on the YEC community. They shouldn’t all be reduced to “hearing only what they want to here”; we just only hear about the ones that do.
I’ve already posted this on Aaron’s blog, but it ol’ Ham has commented/whined about this on both his facebook page which has a link to his youtube video (comments disabled of fucking course) called Ken Ham responds to “The n0nes” claim that he’s an ape.
Hehe, someone is on SMBC-comics.com when AronRa says “Somebody is watching TV” :p