I was out and about this part of Iceland yesterday and today.
It’s gotten much, much calmer now, fortunately.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
I was out and about this part of Iceland yesterday and today.
It’s gotten much, much calmer now, fortunately.
Happiestsadist, it is appalling that you would try to hurt someone for being lonely. There are some people who don’t have anyone they can rely on right now, and nobody should be attacked for being vulnerable to loneliness.
Thanks, and sorry again. I tend to assume that other people have made the same links that exist in my head, and to cite books and things suggstively as though people had already read them.
Reality shock, Im actually starting night shifts tonight, and it is 10C and raining constantly.
I’ve just read the Hallquist thread and a few comments, since it was mentioned everywhere, and what astounds me most is not the guy and his idiocy, but the fact that slimepitters can call for bannings of people and throw feces around without a single intervention from the blog host.
Katrina, I’m sorry that you lost your Sasha. *hug* Twenty years is a very respectable age, for a kitteh, though.
–
Yes!
–
@rorschach
Where is the slime pit? By that I mean which blog?
Actually, what bothers me even more is this attitude, expressed by one of the commenters there :
So truth doesn’t matter, and we are just criticizing DJG because we don’t like the guy ? What is wrong with these people ?
It’s a pathetic site, to be sure. I think you have to go to a specific link. I link to it only because it’s the site of the book (which is, of course, not perfect, but addresses several of the issues people are talking about here).
No, I understand – my instructors tell me I do the same thing when I’m writing essays. :) And I’m kinda having that problem now, because I feel like almost everything I’ve thought of about Roman slave masculinity is really obvious and I don’t need to explain it, despite the fact that… Almost nobody really talks about it. O.o
—
Speaking of which, yes, I’d consider sharing my writing about that if it turns out well :)
—
For what it’s worth, I feel that there are a few people in the world I can rely on, but having thought about it, I would still be fairly vulnerable to someone calling me “lonely” in an insult :/ That said, HS, I know from some of the things you’ve said in the past around here that you do grok how much loneliness hurts, so I assume that despite your dislike of SG, you at least get what he’s getting at with that.
ERV. Don the hazmat.
Cipher, there’s an excerpt here: http://www.eatinganimals.com/site/book/
+++++
ibyea, it’s at ERV.
I’m trying to link a list of some slimepit denizens, but pharyngula wiki triggers the spamtrap still.
pharyngula dot wikia dot com/wiki/slimepit
Josh, Official SpokesKraftDinner
XD
Your new nym made me crack up considering I just ate some Kraft earlier.
Little One got one for her 5th B-day and fucking loves it. She fell asleep in it the last several days. =)
OMFG I do the same thing! It was much easier to do in MI than it is in AZ. I’m the only person I know that does this.
@SC
Yeah, it works if you click on the links on the sidebar at the bottom. Clicking the center just gives me error.
@SC
Oh gosh darn it. I wanted to visit it to see what the trouble was about, but I have already had enough of justicar and others the first time I went through ERV. Although I am curious and sadistic enough that I might try.
Because we were talking about humans and not animals at that particular point. Again, not everything is always about your ridiculous nonsense, I know that’s hard for you to believe. And throwing little tantrums to divert it back to the cutesy-wutesy cows and piggies is yet another point in how you monopolize threads.
And with that, it’s fucking bedtime.
I was thinking “why people having a hard time with that website? It looks nice and clean.”
Oh, it’s because it’s a goddamn flash site and I don’t have flash! :D
So, excerpt: http://www.eatinganimals.com/site/book/
author bio: http://www.eatinganimals.com/site/foer/
forum: http://www.eatinganimals.com/fora/
@Happiestsadist
I know SC should have responded to the relevant comments related to ethical eating instead, but I don’t think caring about the suffering of animals is ridiculous. Sure, I myself have not been very good at it, but it is good that there are people out there like her that cares.
@ Rey Fox About questions from the audience.
Something I always told witnesses was that if they were not sure what the question was, to restate it. “I think you are asking me … [restatement]. My answer is …”
If you didn’t restate correctly, you will be told, and the questioner will try another phrasing. That will give you more to work with. You have a chance to answer again.
I also agree with getting back to someone. You can’t possibly know everything. Being willing to admit it and being willing to get the answer for someone is a very good sign of professional competence. I use it from time to time when I’m teaching. No one has ever called me a fool or been upset. Most people appreciated that I took the question seriously and wanted to answer accurately.
The last one doesn’t work still.
Awww, SG, just STFU. But what it’s worth, I take the “lonely” back. I am lonely. I’m a shut-in in a city where I knew few people. There’s nothing wrong with being lonely, and it’s not a shameful thing.
I substitute: shitty, authoritarian, bully who deserves nothing but pity for his wilful ignorance, and contempt for his abusive tendencies. Who continues to browbeat, accuse and monopolize all over every TET, which reminds me of why I seldom come here in the first place, as do many others who otherwise would. Who will, no doubt, harp endlessly on how meeeeeean I am to him for days, and possibly even years. All the while portraying himself as the expert on oppression, truth, and justice.
For school, you should write for an audience of intelligent nonexperts* (even if you think they’re relative experts, which they often aren’t concerning your specific arguments – you’d be surprised). I can almost guarantee you some of what you say will be new to them, and the rest will show your knowledge and remind them about the fundamentals (and some of that might be new, too!).
/professor
*maybe advanced undergrads or beginning grad students who haven’t read much in that particular area – or you before you did
So, kinda, write like I’m writing for Pharyngula :) Or for my classmates, most of whom are basically beginning grad students who haven’t read much in my area. Thanks! I’ll try to keep it in mind.
I’m starting to think your ‘nym is apt, and not in the good sense.
I’d probably skip the smileys… and the “fuck you”s
;-)
I think a lot of things about you, SC, but you know, if you don’t have anything nice to say…
Ryan Long may be wrong about a lot of things, but I agree with this 100% :
Because clearly lacking belief in gods or doubting Bigfoot stories is not enough glue to form many meaningful alliances. We like to think that being an atheist or skeptic comes with certain other added values and convictions, but it’s just not always the case, and especially on FB the nice ally to weird creep ratio was pretty shocking.
Hahahaha.
Yes.
What I could probably do is write JUST like I’m writing for Pharyngula, then clean things like that out, then add in citations, then edit.
Yes, I’d say write for the latter, but also imagine the arguments (and requests for clarity) you’d get from the former and shape it in response. (And maybe throw some speculations out in the comments at Richard Carrier’s blog…? :))
Best of luck.
Actually it’s an open thread, lots of people talk about different things.
Sometimes some people even talk about what other people are talking about.
There are even multiple we‘s!
It’s pretty intense, I know.
Category error.
Abort, Retry, Fail?
+++++
So I should shut the fuck up and not complain about the way that you try to hurt people for being lonely — and yet somehow if I shut the fuck up about it you’d have just come around to realizing that’s a shitty thing to do and you’d have figured out on your own that it was fucked up?
I don’t see how that’s supposed to have worked.
No problem.
I understand how my words could be triggering to you, and I’m not going to deny your experience,
but the factual claims here are based upon a false assumption of intimacy. I’m not betraying you, because there is no trust between us.
Again, I understand how you make the conflation and I’m not denying that my words could be triggering. But that said, this reply goes to you as well.
This is dishonest. The only time I’ve ever complained about an unkindness from you is just now, about trying to hurt someone for being lonely. And like I said, I’m just lucky I’m not, but I think it’s fucked up for you to say to anyone.
Prior to this, I have never, ever complained about you being mean to me. So don’t lie.
And if you’re saying that you “take back” the attempt to cause pain for loneliness, while simultaneously mocking me for considering it an evil move, then that would suggest there’s no sincerity about your “taking it back.”
So I hope that’s not what you meant.
I’m not an expert by any means; if you’d like to correct my understanding of any particular issue, I do like learning.
*is extremely tempted to sprinkle her progress report with smileys and “fuck”s*
Thank you, ibyea.
Also, not a complaint, but:
what does this claim refer to?
On that perfect note, good night.
So, I finally did it. I plunked down the money for an old-fashioned safety razor set. Been eyeing this for years (and my BFF recommends the shit out it for quality shave and cheapness of replacement blades) yet have been wasting money on disposable razors all this time.
Will report back when product received and SpokesKraftDinner cheeks scraped.
Good night SC :)
Happiestsadist,
Now you tell me!
At least, I suppose that responding to this kind of people is the best possible use of my flavour of rambling, borderline unintelligible comments. Bad writing makes no difference to someone who’s not reading for comprehension in the first place!
Why am I vexed so? Of all the fuckin’ things in the world, I have the Ronettes’ “Be My Baby” (which I like, being fond of 60s girl-group pop) stuck in my head except all fucked up in a minor key.
I wish I could hear of American women protesting like the turkish women protesting aborion limits when the Republicans are trying to take away their bodily autonomy. Anyone know of any big American protests regarding this?
They call us lonely when really we’re alone.
Like a funny film that’s kind of cute
They brought the bullets but there’s no one left to shoot
I might as well…
Oh my god, the Dot Physics blog is so awesome. The guy is examining physics in angry birds.
MikeG:
Thank you, thank you! I was out cutting flowers and rounding the corner of our property when I caught ‘white fuzzy on my Salix, that ain’t right, it has pink flowers!’, took a look and went for my camera. Gorgeous little moths, you have to just love the fuzzy.
Katrina:
Oh, Katrina. Thank you. ♥ I am so very sorry about Sasha-kitteh. Even at almost 20, it’s too damn soon. They are all supposed to live forever.
Ing, thank you. I’m glad you had a happy honeymoon.
Cicely:
*manyhugs* right back at you. Thank you, so much. ♥
Josh:
A million, billion times, this.
CR:
Yes, there are, and living in farm country, I know exactly where my beef comes from, thank you, and just how it’s fed and treated when still in living cow state. Jesus Christ, every asshole on the planet living in a city thinks everyone else doesn’t know a damn thing. Thanks ever so much.
Come on people, play the happy prole!
Apropos of nothing, Hugo is a wonderful film, although the distinctly British flavour of a story set in France is jarring.
Mister got home a bit earlier than usual, most likely fearing I would need support over Chas dying. I had the monster dogs out and was busy photographing the Virginia Tiger moths when he got home, so we didn’t connect immediately, although I knew he was home from Doll’s particular howls. When I made it to the back of the house I gave him a ferocious hug and told him how sorry I was he didn’t get to see Chas one last time. Mister held on to me for a long time, and we talked about Chas & Alfie a bit, I showed him the Bruce bones and all, I dared my pancreas and had a few more beers and we watched Hugo.
So, all went well.
Caine, I an an asshole urban dweller.
Just a kind rebuke.
*raspberry*
Josh, I hope you are getting the shaving brush with your kit. I used to love mine—mixing up some hot soap and brushing it on was so much better than foam from a can.
I gave up on shaving, long ago, perhaps due to the pain of using cheap disposable razors. I now keep an electric shaver and use the trimmer to keep things shaped up, and only use the shaver part for perimeter areas before job interviews.
Speaking of beef, the best I ever ate was from a bull who had been raised on grass, broke a leg and was converted entirely to hamburger.
Any group of “normal” people would be squicked. Me, I teared up. That was real sweet, Caine. Best to you and Mr.
As happiestsadist said, I’m free to respond to whatever I want.
And moralizing about how we all ‘could’ eat a vegan diet is fucking food policing.
Hey, if we really wanted to reduce our global impact, we could all eat a shotgun shell! Would be literally the last meal we’d ever need to eat!
Or… I could eat whatever tastes good to me, and enjoy the remnant of my trip around this miserable rock as best as I can.
Janine:
You can raspberry me all day long and into the night, Janine. I deserved that, so I’ll take it. You, however, don’t throw idiotic arguments into the wind, either.
Upthread:
Incorrect universal:
This argument only has logical validity if you do, in fact, accept that ‘meat-based diets’ all involve feeding the grain to animals. A⊃B is not a valid inference in the case that ~A. This right here is either terrifyingly poor logic, or a flat-out incorrect universal statement with no ifs, buts, or maybes and presented with zero qualifying conditions, geographic, historical, regional, cultural or otherwise.
False dichotomy:
‘meat-based’ vs ‘veg*’. There exist intermediates. A mostly plant-based diet which includes small quantities of meat is by far the major option by global standards. It’s true that US Americans do actually eat ludicrous amounts of meat by world measures. Suggesting that this is the standard that should be sustained (and waah grass won’t do that) is a strawman of the argument for sustainable mixed farming.
Lying:
In general I do refrain from grain-fed beef, with rare exceptions to which I freely admit. I do not buy it as an ingredient to cook at home. Since I would have to seek out and pay extra to get grain-fed beef, this is really quite easy for me in comparison to most Americans. Is this another all or nothing? Are you now or have you ever been a
communistgrain-fed meat eater? Does “refrain” mean 100% life-long abstinence to you? If so, then fine, I don’t “refrain”, I merely very strongly limit. Whatever. I’m pretty sure I haven’t eaten any in the last 12 months.I went back and checked just to be sure; consciousness razor wasn’t talking to you.
So wasn’t being an asshole to you.
This is one of the many reasons why I say you take a thrill in trying to hurt people and start fights, Caine. You love it.
Josh:
Now I’m all teary again. Thank you, Josh. ♥
Blow it out your ass.
Yes, I said the same. The issue is not what you can respond to, but what you can say honestly:
Giliell made a claim about facts. I responded to that claim. That’s all that’s happened here. You respond to me, and then I respond to you. You can’t honestly claim that I’m “food policing” when I’m responding first to claims about facts and then responding to comments directed to me.
There is something seriously wrong with the way you interact with other people, Coyote, if you think that other people should be able to make claims about facts but I shouldn’t be able to respond.
I think you need to understand that other people are allowed to share in public spaces. You don’t have to agree with what’s being said. But people you disagree with are allowed to say things.
You can’t honestly claim that I’m “food policing” when I’m responding first to claims about facts and then responding to comments directed to me.
But if you want to make this false claim about what constitutes “food policing”, then you’re doing it right here:
Quit your food policing about efficiency, you hypocrite.
It’s a good argument for cannibalizing your neighbor against his will.
Oh, and whatever shit there was about eating out at restaurants? I rarely eat out. Rarely. When I do, I tend toward a veg plate*. *shrug* So, whoever is throwing that out as a potential guilt trip, you can fuck right off.
*Grass fed beef and Hutterite chicken spoils a person, they taste distinctly different from agribusiness meats.
I have no idea why this was said, and I’m not going to find out. You’re free to believe what you like, dear.
It’s the truth, Janine. She loves to start fights. Which is cool. It’s just odd that she also loves to complain when other people fight back.
The fuck? You have my explicit written permission to respond to anything you like.
No it’s not, most Long Pork smells absolutely nauseating while alive.
Fuck you, Strange Gods. If Caine was not here, you would still be doing your best to make this an unpleasant place when you deem to hang out.
And I repeat myself.
Blow it out your ass.
Tend.
You have a hard time understanding why people say things?
You, having no prior involvement in the discussion, decided to offer up your eating habits. They were responded to.
You can fuck right off in return, of course. People are allowed to respond to the things you say, Caine.
That’s fine. I’ll just save more of my evidence, of your deliberately trying to hurt people out of the blue, to present when someone insists it’s not true.
SG, shut the fuck up. Note it in your obsessive One File of Everything Everyone on Pharyngula Ever Said to Rule Them All if you like. But just shut the fuck up.
The point, Coyote, is that you react without even considering the context of a discussion.
Giliell made a claim about facts. I responded to that claim. That’s all that’s happened here. You respond to me, and then I respond to you. You can’t honestly claim that I’m “food policing” when I’m responding first to claims about facts and then responding to comments directed to me.
Ah, but it’s a good argument for those who do want to kill their neighbors and eat them. As it turns out, there are some.
Josh: Thanks for the offer, but as ever, I’ll shut up when I feel like it.
It’s possible, but I don’t take the same kind of thrill in deliberately trying to hurt people as she does.
Well, Caine’s leaving, at least for now. Much to do tomorrow and Mister’s home, so…
We find ourselves in need of another cat kennel, so plans need to be mapped out and part of the roof needs to be repaired (there’s nothing quite like hearing rain, and then hearing the drip of rain from your ceiling), lists to be made, all that. Prep for the run into town on Tuesday.
Catch you all tomorrow, G’night.
Oh, a brief rat update: Esme has taken Chas’s death well, to point. She still gives me the hairy eyeball, not completely sure whether or not I was responsible for him dying. Rubin is still his spooky self, but doing okay. I put fresh Nutella out, which is his main concern in life. :D
Esme did take a shoulder ride with Mister tonight, which really helped him to deal. She’s sweet that way.
You just take a thrill in being a manipulative ego-maniacal fuck. I don’t know what the hell is wrong with you, but it’s something serious.
Oh, and your little comment didn’t contain an implicit guilt trip?
Oh I see. CANNIBALS! OOOOoooOOOOoooOOOOOH!
Used to be different, too. Remember?
Go fuck your miserable self, SG.
ॐ,
Hey, hey- that reminds me of a totally clever repartee someone or other used on me not too long ago about mind reading!
Because man, do you have inside knowledge about what Caine loves and what thrills Caine.
This comment? Looks about as straightforward as can be.
If you take that to be a guilt trip, then you’re perhaps too thin-skinned, Coyote. Some people are capable of discussing ethical issues without feeling like every disagreement is a condemnation.
Here’s perhaps a helpful exercise. Go take that comment of mine to Giliell and rewrite it so it contains the same factual information but doesn’t strike you as a guilt-trip. I’d be interested in seeing what you think that’d look like.
Your stated ethics thus far allow for cannibalism of the unwilling. This happened very publicly within the last month, someone’s face was eaten. If you want a coherent ethics, you might want to rephrase things.
Fuck all, ya’all!
I need some vintage sleaze.
Garbageman
TV Set
Can Your Pussy Do The Dog?
Bikini Girls With Machine Guns
(Not gone to bed yet, because Esme doesn’t want to stop climbing on me)
NuMad:
Woah. Yeah, seriously? Exactly one person on the planet knows that much about me, and they don’t know everything. (I know this wasn’t you, NuMad, so don’t worry! Sorry, your nym makes me think of Alfred E. Neuman.)
Goodnight, Caine. ♥ Glad you get to spend some time with Mister anyway.
I was trying to come back in to tell y’all about my passive-aggressively-nonsensical responses to my German homework but scrolled up first and “Turns out it’s… really upsetting!” So I’m going to try to flounce for a bit to do my Greek translation and German reading and review my Latin and try to work on my draft and ohmygod I don’t actually get to sleep tonight, before bed.
Says the person who keeps a list of quotes to show when someone is “lying”. Fucking vanguardist.
Fuck it. Back to ignoring.
Goodnight, Cipher. ♥ I would love to hear about passive-aggressive nonsensical responses to German homework! Don’t you forget about this, I do want to hear.
Now listen, I know you’re seriously stressed about your paper and your other homework, so do me a favour – get your soft kitty pillow and sing Soft Rattie to yourself. Stop beating yourself up, you’ll get it done and you’ll be brilliant, like you always are, okay? *much love*
stating even the most boringest facts about food to people who’ve experienced food-policing is going to go over about as well as making even the most judgment-free, neutral comments about overpopulation to someone who has left the Quiverful movement.
it’s not ever going to be understood neutrally, and it’s not ever going to result in the person perceiving the comment as an attack hearing the factual part of the comment.
or, in other words, this is officially me conceding in the “framing” debate. turns out all people are going to be irrational fuckweasels about something. so, unless you package reality in a way that gets past the “irrational fuckweasel” filter, no one is going to hear what you say. Without exception, not even from those who pride themselves on being eager and willing to have their filters removed (myself including, of course, even if I don’t actually know where my filters are).
I refuse, however, to concede that “nice” is an universal filter-remover, especially considering how shitty it does against privilege. So I guess I’m a half human, half tone-troll hybrid now.
Or, simply a cynic about the ability of the human animal to think its way out of a paperbag
NuMad, are you asking me to show the evidence?
*snerk*
You know I don’t actually have a list, right? It’s just Google.
That cannibal probably just couldn’t get a good table at a restaurant. Vital, for the modern life!
Caine,
I can think of worse things to remind people of.
Goodnight!
Good morning
SG
Ahhh, nice to see you misrepresent my argument while at the same time accusing me of being just like climate denialing conservatives. Not that I expected any different from you.
But have fun arguing against it, I won’t try to correct you. It’s useless anyway.
Boring, still boring. I trust the other participants to be intelligent enough to understand what i was actually saying as opposed to what you’re saing.
Can I have the straw back?
Well, not exactly. Not even when you repeat it 5 times…
Now, I think I need to spell it out, for the benefit of others:
People who all go “better than thou because I make choice X” (where X is better than Y) are often hypocrites because, on the other hand, they’re happy to make choice A, which is inferior to choice B and have all good arguments why A is totes reasonable while Y is absolutely unacceptable.
I actually didn’t make a specific claim about specific diets, farming types or the fuel efficiency of car Z. But thank you for proving my point, SG.
Dianne
That’s of course true for large scale farming. On the other hand, I buy my milk from a farming cooperative that does low scale farming in an area where exactly that type of farming has shaped the landscape for centuries and created a specific environment in which many wild animals have their habitat as well. If that kind of farming would be stopped, their habitat would disappear, too.
Another example of this is the Lüneburg Heath. No more sheep, no more birdlife. Sure, we could just put in the effort to raise all those sheep, care for them, give them medical care and so on until they die of old age, yet who’s going to do that?
All that doesn’t excuse factory farming of any kind, though.
David
That’s the fun fact about German names: the system is pretty arbitrary. Names commonly used somewhere else are totally OK, so Turkish people have zilch problems to get them registered. On the other hand, it depends largely on the goodwill of the clerk. Mr.’s cousin is named Marion. Although Marion can be a male name, I’ve never met a man called Marion and if you just hear “Marion Smith”, nobody is going to assume a man. But Marion alone wasn’t good enough, the father was sent back to his wife to discuss names again. So they decided to call her Marion Maria, after her late grandmother. The clerk sent him back again: Catholic men can be called Maria with second name, too, that’s still ambigous…
Oh, and at least 1-2 generations ago the naming after the godfather/mother was still common. My gran was pretty angry with her sister to put her rather ugly name on an innocent newborn, even if it was just name #4
Funfact: my mum couldn’t decide on a name for my sister, so she said she’s just going to pick the saint of the due day. Well, the kalendar said “Pfingstmontag”. She decided against that.
Josh
Is there room for two? I’m kind of sorry I made a remark that then got constructed into a giant straw-cow. But on the other hand, I’m not willing to limit my writing under the aspect of what SG couldn’t use to start a long happy rant.
Dito.
Funny enough, Mr. loves snuggeling at night. So does #1. I hate it. So does the little one.
Ing
Wahhhhh, cool stuff. I wished I could have gotten away with something like that for my wedding.
@SG
Is hostility the reaction you’re going for?
Not trying to be a dick, I’m honestly curious now
Damn! You just shown how fucking mistaken I am.
Consider me impressed and cowed.
Either that or this, I do not give a flying fuck.
Read my mind or google it to get the answer.
@Jaine
I googled it and all I got was an animated gif of a flaming skull giving me the middle finger while screaming “DIE!!!!!”
I blame Siri
Well, this thread ain’t no fun anymore. I guess it is time to lurk back. *goes back in shadow in the alley*
*snort*
Ugh can’t sleep, but got two possible job offers while I was away on Honeymoon. gonna take a personal day tomorrow to actually clean up after wedding (and get new tires on car after the massive driving the old girl did)
Giliell, not to be confused with The Borg @79 :
Re guys named Marion :
allow me to introduce you to Marion Morrison .
DLC
Yeah, but he hardly lives in Germany or is even known here. That’s the point.
My neighbours regularly donate me bits of their flesh, so that I don’t come over and eat them all at once.
It’s the ethics that make me do it.
Oh, yes, the greatest cowboy and warrior to emerge from Hollywood.
Behold the wisdom.
I had an uncle who had this stinking pile thirty five years ago.
So after watching the Game of Thrones season finale, I have one thing to say:
תקיעה
(Ok, make that one thing I’m going to say. Sorry I don’t know rot13 (rot11?) for Hebrew.)
Giliell,
Not exactly. The fun of hippie-punching is shared even by those conservatives who don’t deny climate science. Plenty of them still regard advocacy of more fuel-efficient automobiles to be offensive to their sensibilities.
Don’t worry. We’re about to look at what you were actually saying, and not just consider in retrospect what you now realize you ought to have said.
That bolded part will become important when you claim you weren’t talking about any specific types of diets.
First of all, you originally made a categorical statement, with nothing about “often”. Including that would have been sufficient to make you not technically wrong.
Second, you totally did make a specific claim about specific diets. Your claim was that people who avoid meat/dairy farming are causing the same harm to animals and the environment if they didn’t avoid it.
If people are willing to stop that farming, they’ll also be willing to take care of animals. Your error is in thinking “people in this culture wouldn’t do that”, which may be true, but extrapolating that to “people in any culture wouldn’t do that”. That’s very likely to be wrong. It would take a significant change in thinking to stop eating animals; that change is going to involve a different way of thinking about animals generally.
Janine,
:D
Didn’t mean to come off that way, sorry. I just don’t want to be wrongly thought to be keeping an actual list. It’s not that I’m opposed to such; I just don’t have the time.
+++++
Ing,
No. It’s an acceptable side-effect, but the reaction I’m really going for is to get people to be more honest.
I realize the same compulsion appears to have driven Truth Machine to finally hate Pharyngula — assuming that was him over in the Slimepit as “forced to be anonymous” — but I dunno, I think I have more stamina than he did.
Did someone say something?
Janine,
Oh yes, the Nazis certainly are famous for their slowness to fan the flames of hatred.
What sense of proportion!
Caine, thanks. Done. :) Also went to the kitchen and spun for a while… Now hopefully I have my brains enough in order to get stuff done.
Note, Janine, I don’t work quite that way. If someone talks to me, I pretty much have to respond, even if I know they have me killfiled and aren’t reading what I say. I realize this can make me an amusing squeaky toy; if you want reactions you’ll always get them. Sorry if you don’t.
NuMad, you are forgetting Real American History™, together, John Wayne and Ronald Reagan were able to beat the Nazis. And if the hippies and liberals did not hold one of John Wayne’s arm behind his back, he would have won the Vietnam War. John Wayne was also able to travel back in time to beat the Native Americans who were selfishly keeping the lands that became the US away from white folks.
And they were able to do that without stepping onto European soil or going to Vietnam.
Behold the glory.
Once more, you have one less person to respond to.
Do not answer.
This has apparently already been resolved, but I’ll add anyway that mocking people for being lonely is a really shitty thing to do, as is using lonely as an insult. That is all.
Yeah, yeah.
But what I said is true of everyone here who eats meat.
No, see, now that’s shitty logic from someone who wants to talk logic.
Veg* is vegetarian. If there’s meat, it’s not vegetarian, it’s meat-based.
Suggesting that your opponent is in favor of monocultures, as you did, is clearly a strawman. And one that’s been addressed before.
Okay Janine.
[meta]
Happiestsadist:
Seems like Pharyngula is evolving, and on the way to leaving us old-timers behind.
(Or perhaps it’s just TET?)
—
PS The answer is: “if you don’t have anything nice to say… at least be interesting“.
(Your disinterest is ostensible, but only because you were interested enough to opine about it)
(Need I remind you this is an open thread?)
Fuck you. You are not funny.
as TET goes…
Giliell, on further consideration, you’re much wronger than I initially thought.
If this is your claim, that someone advocating X is a hypocrite for not also doing B, that’s usually a non sequitur, for most values of X and B.
So let’s consider some things you mentioned:
X = avoiding animal products.
Y = buying animal products.
A = taking hot showers.
B = taking cold showers.
Person 1 does X and A.
Person 2 does Y and A.
Person 1 is acting more ethically than Person 2. This is obvious. There’s nothing remotely hypocritical about this.
It only gets interesting with a more complicated scenario:
Person 3 does X and A.
Person 4 does Y and B.
Now, person 3 can clearly say “I am acting more ethically than you with regard to X vs Y”. And person 4 can reply “but I am acting more ethically than you with regard to A vs B.”
And they’re both correct. And, neither one of them is a hypocrite.
The weird thing is if either of them tries to claim “I am acting more ethically than you in the aggregate.” That’s tough. Objectively, someone must be acting more ethically in the aggregate, but it’s hard to say who. And it gets a lot more complicated with more than two variables. So that sort of claim probably shouldn’t be made.
But Person 3 can and should tell Person 4 “you are wrong to do Y, and you should stop.”
And Person 4 can and should tell Person 3 “you are wrong to do A, and you should stop.”
So long as that’s what they stick with, neither is a hypocrite; both could improve their behavior, though.
+++++
Janine,
I know. I’m not laughing.
Jadehawk, see, here’s the thing: I reckon TZT is a fixture now, having shown merit*.
(Hey, totally incidentally, you remember the episode of the Love/Hate open threads?)
—
* Even had a pretty good delurk, there!
I did not suggest otherwise. I was referencing the phrase “as X goes, so goes the world”; or in this case, “so goes Pharyngula”.
I do. as interesting as that was, i don’t think that’s a sustainable long-term idea. besides, there’s TET and TZT now.
To be blatant, TET:TZT :: the lounge: the training ground*.
—
* At times, even with real specimens with which to practice!
that didn’t make any sense. I confused TET and TZT in your comment.
anyway, I don’t want to hang around the stupid, quarantined trolls, but TET is becoming increasingly less useful for discussion, too.
SG
Not to spoil your fun but I’m not going to argue with you. I’ve had enough of that shit already, but feel free to go on. Here’s just a hint:
People who aren’t dishonest dipshits understand that “better than thou arguments” =/= honest discussions about issue X.
But I understand that your fundamental problem is that you’re only capable of the former, not the latter.
Bye-bye
Josh
To add to your meme:
clic
Janine,
Native Americans, who hadn’t even discovered the hyphen yet!
People who aren’t dishonest
— a brief interlude. Ahem. Giliell, you and I both know the other one is not a dipshit. I mean,you turned out to be much, much wronger than I first realized, but as long as I can understand how you came to make your mistake, it’s evident that it wasn’t dipshittery per se which caused it —
people who aren’t dishonest can admit that “better than thou arguments” don’t involve hypocrisy in the way that you’ve claimed.
I realize you wrote this comment before I wrote out #106 above, which should make it all clearer.
Hello! *waves timorously*
Sorry to hear about Chas, Caine – and I’d heard about Sasha-kitteh. Seems the only pet I can think of that would live long enough would be a tortoise. Hmm. Call me speciesist, but I can’t imagine getting close.
I have just returned from Dunedin, (not to be confused with the place Tolkein created.)* I have visited my daughter in her student flat, and done a huge disservice to science I believe, by disposing of a few species of mould as yet unclassified by science.
Studentz – are you universaleh filtheh?
Old Man Jenkins, I have long been curious, (in attitude, not presentation. OK presentation too.) Does this – ॐ – mean anything in particular?
* Although, thanks to Sir Peter Jackson, I can’t fly over the Southern Alps of NZ without the music from LOTR playing endlessly in my head.
amblebury, it’s my Molly, my OM.
amblebury, look up the monicker. :)
(Or just pronounce it)
This is a very simple false dichotomy: So in your world it’s either veggie or NOT veggie. That is stupid. In the real world, there are many diets, including several different kinds of vegetarian; there is “meat-based” or however you might label the standard American model where the bulk of the protein is derived from meat; and there is plant-based but not exclusively vegetarian, which is probably the most common world-wide diet.
“Meat-based” meals or not: Spaghetti sauce recipe containing 30 grams of meat in a serving for 6 people? Malaysian vegetable & tofu curry with a teaspoon of shrimp paste? Macaroni cheese made with cheese that was made with rennet? Eggs? Fertilised eggs? Dole bread with weevils in the flour? BLACK OR WHITE! EVIL OR GOOD!
BTW, I do not care what you may have said before. I am not going to study your complete oeuvre before calling out clear and obvious logical fallacies right here in this thread.
Very threadrupt.
@Katrina: Sorry to hear about Sasha-kitteh. :( *hugs*
—
The DJG meme is awesome, they vastly improved my morning.
Maybe the DJ & JT memes could be combined in one DJT-condesplanation meme, since they’re pretty similar…
Ah! Wicked clever. Thanks OMJ.
I seriously, really wanted to name our last canine dependent ‘Om’, on the basis that a distinctive single-syllable name would not just be useful, it’d be nifty — and yet it would not likely be employed by accident.
(I didn’t carry the day; he ended up being named Flynn)
I knew a farmer who was frequently chastised for swearing at his dogs. He name the next one Please.
incorrect. white or non-white, and evil or non-evil.
seriously, “in category X” and “not in category X” can pretty much never be a false dichotomy: either it has meat in it, or it does not; either one is pregnant, or one is not; either something is white, or it is not. etc.
jesus fuck, this is stupid.
Hooray!
Turns out my new statistician is awesome. She made time for a telephone session this morning and was willing to work with me so we got the statistic isses covered and I could move on with writing my results. She also approved of my approach to correlations.
I’m leaving for the womens centre now.
I suspect some of those mould species were just a few saltations away from becoming carnivorous, so you might have saved humankind. It’s why I don’t count missing out on living with fellow degree seekers while being one amongst life’s great regrets.
Thank you, Agent Silversmith.
I largely “missed out” on that experience too. I’m OK with that, as they say.
It’s called the law of the excluded middle. If X is whatever, then X and not-X together sum up all that exists. There’s nothing else.
I’m pretty surprised you don’t know about this.
This is true, but taking the set of vegetarian diets as X, then not-X is the set of everything else.
Meat-based.
Arguable; argument will probably involve the principle of double effect. But in any case, it is either X or not-X.
This is another lie, since you started out this fight by lying about what I’d said before.
You don’t need to. But you should then refrain from telling lies about what I’ve supposedly stood for. Indeed, had you not begun by lying about me, you’d probably be feeling less frustrated by this point.
(Very Early) Morning everybodeh.
I really wish my body would stop this “go to bed at 8, wake up at 4” pattern. *punches internal clock*
Jadehawk:
Less useful that you fondly imagine it to have been, perhaps, and for mine it was never about being useful for discussion.
What I think is that it was the TZT of its day, and that it never pretended to be more than an open thread — an overspill outlet for those who wanted to make some comment, but didn’t care to be off-topic elsewhere.
no, less useful as in I have reached the limit at which I can still learn things from discussions here, so now all I get is to watch people be incredibly, irritatingly dense from the sidelines.
I note another amusement in here, Giliell.
I don’t claim to be better than anyone here.
I consistently say I’m a bad person, and I mean it.
I honestly feel like a lot of people here are better people than me — like I said, this is a kind of thing that’s hard to measure, so I can’t feel comfortable arguing it one way or the other except regarding a couple of all-around ethical people, but — my gut is pretty consistent about this,
and it’s not like a general sense of moral inferiority, because I do know a lot of people offline who are clearly worse people than me.
So, since I do repetitively make clear that I am not better than people here,
it must be that you mistake “see no reason to let the issue slide” for “better than thou”.
You take relentlessness for a feeling of moral superiority. But that’s incorrect. It’s just not the same thing. If you were to try to argue with me that I am really a wonderful person, better than anyone here, I would relentlessly argue against that too. And probably call you a liar. ;)
Morning, RahXephon. Which, in my case, is late evening.
Yeah, my circadian rhythms are fond of giving my wishes the finger as well. Still don’t dare to leave the alarm unset, though.
Jadehawk: Here’s a book and a dissertation then. You might not be interested, but it can’t hurt to hoard them.
http://www.sentimentaltoday.net/OUP/0195320913.Oxford.University.Press.USA.Social.and.Psychological.Bases.of.Ideology.and.System.Justification.Mar.2009.pdf
Why do people become liberals: http://dr.library.brocku.ca/handle/10464/1431
Cipher
Yay! Will keep an eye open on TET to see if you mention how it’s gone when you finish it. Just hope I don’t get all ‘rupt and accidentally miss it.
Fuck me, is that first link borked? Grumble grumble.
http://109-231-69-82.flexiscale.com/OUP/0195320913.Oxford.University.Press.USA.Social.and.Psychological.Bases.of.Ideology.and.System.Justification.Mar.2009.pdf
Jadehawk,
Fair enough.
(You know of a better place to truly express yourself?)
first link gets me a Forbidden error
anyway, what I need is people to distract me from the stuff in my own head right now. which I suppose is working, but I liked it better when I could learn from that. I have fuckloads of reading material I should be getting through, but that stuff generally doesn’t work as a distraction, because the other stuff in my head distracts me from the reading.
should that situation change, I’ll look into those, though. That dissertation looks interesting enough to at least skim.
ok, now it worked
As far as I can tell the extreme ends of the spectrum are complete carnivore and vegan, with other diets falling somewhere in between. Most people’s diets fall somewhere in between.
Could I live on a vegan diet? Probably, though it would require a fair amount of research to work out a way to do that which didn’t screw up my B12 levels etc. Will I? Probably not. Because I’m human and imperfect and giving up cheese and eggs is something I’m not willing to do right now. I fully admit I am not perfect ethically, whether in diet or other things. But just because I will not go fully that route does not mean that I won’t, whenever possible, try to reduce my ecological footprint.
self-expression is not the problem here
Jadehawk,
Evasive, you seem, by thus dismissing the question.
Disingenous, too, since I didn’t claim it was a problem, but rather (I think) implied it was a lure for you (as it is for me), and a worthy basis outside of just learning stuff.
(Obviously, I don’t deny that Learning Stuff is still a feature for me, if not for you)
For anyone interested, this might be of help.
[datum]
My sister for a long time has been a dedicated ethical vegetarian tending towards vegan.
(But she will eat the eggs from our hens, because she knows they’re happy hens, if not quite pets. Makes sense to me)
PS Our hens got leftover (nearly 5 days old) cake leftovers from the recent Australia’s Biggest Morning Tea — their crops were happily bulging.
(Spoiled, they are)
Cipher –
For sleeping with the weight of 20 blankets without the warmth of 20 blankets, have you tried a weighted blanket? Quite comforting.
Hello, folks. Happy Saturday.
I really do hate dreams. I can’t get the fucking smell out of my mind. I don’t think I’m going crazy (having an emotional breakdown, or whatever way you want to phrase it), but I am so tired of this.
I have just started the yeast for some home-made pizza. Should be good (well, it always has been before, so . . . .).
John, I have no doubt that your hens are happy hens. And perhaps they would even love to trade their eggs for food and security. But roosters and hens hatch in about the same numbers. What do you think happens to those one day old cockerels?
NEW THREAD!
Can I crawl back into bed now?