We shouldn’t pick on the South all the time, so here is a tale out of the eminently Yankee state of Maine. The Maine Republican party recently met to establis their official platform, and ended up getting hijacked by the tea-baggers. Their new platform contains all kinds of nutty demands.
The document calls for the elimination of the Department of Education and the Federal Reserve, demands an investigation of “collusion between government and industry in the global warming myth,” suggests the adoption of “Austrian Economics,” declares that “‘Freedom of Religion’ does not mean ‘freedom from religion'” (which I guess makes atheism illegal), insists that “healthcare is not a right,” calls for the abrogation of the “UN Treaty on Rights of the Child” and the “Law Of The Sea Treaty” and declares that we must resist “efforts to create a one world government.”
It also contains favorable mentions of both the Tea Party and Ron Paul. You can read the whole thing here.
There are other jewels in there. Marriage is between one man and one woman; all illegal aliens must be immediately arrested, detained, and deported without any possibility of amnesty; the border must be sealed; drill, baby, drill; US out of the UN!; and yes, it really does want to abolish the state board of education and put all schools under entirely local control.
The wingnuts have taken over.
Although…if you’ve ever read the Texas Republican Party platform an any time in the last 20 years, you might also realize that the Maine platform is on the mild side of Republican lunacy.
oh yeah. that’ll go over swell during the elections!
though, my cynical mind tells me that they’ll hide this stuff during the election to avoid scaring voters away.
To be fair, it’s not pure horrible – they’ve decided that they like the idea of a “read the bill” act, which I personally am all for. The less Congress does the better, in my opinion.
Also, they reject LOST, which is totally allright with me.
After that it pretty much descends into gibbering insanity.
The christofascists also took over the Iowa GOP many years ago. No idea what their official platform is. It may even be written in Moronese, a dialect of English that makes it hard to even read.
So, when are they going to start drilling for oil in Maine? IIRC, the geology there is mostly granite and metamorphic rock, where oil is not found. But reason and logic never stopped them yet.
The Tea Party…America’s Blackshirts. Victory Hail!
Teabaggers = No shirt. No shoes. No brains.
This obsession that the right wing in the US has with one world government fascinates me. What ever gives them the idea there is the slightest chance of such a thing happening? Have they looked at the rest of the world? Does it seem united to them? Sufficiently united to take over the gov’t of the US? It’s just bizarre.
The world is more disunited than it has been in centuries (break up of Soviet Union, the British Empire etc), and they think that this will lead to world government?
Nuts, completely nuts.
What drives me crazy, though, is that the DC press corps, and most of American journalism, treats these folks as though they’re sane. It goes beyond Fox. Take a look at coverage of the Teabaggers as compared with the Equality March for LGBT rights last year, or the immigrant rights march in DC the day after Teabaggers. Crazy as white conservatives are “real Americans” in DC. Just ask Mika Bryzinski or David Gregory or Jake Tapper or……
… “Austrian Economics,”…?!?
Marjanović will prob’ly show up soon to clarify all this, but last I heard Austria had socialized medicine, a welfare state, and all sorts of other – sorry, gotta tell it like it is – un-American stuff going on.
Has anybody seen the Maine GOP Platform Committee’s birth certificates (long form)?
And you know who else came from Austria, dontcha?
(/Beck-Godwin)
Holy fuck. They’re insane.
A small step for a couple of teabagging morons, but a big leap for mankind!!!
Translation: 1) the USA is the only country in the world; 2) industry… <head explodes>
…which hasn’t ever been adopted in Austria. I’m just saying. B-)
I’m not surprised they want to beat the living shit out of their children, but their support for piracy is rather surprising, I must say.
I’m sure private industry will conduct an investigation as soon as it’s profitable to conduct one.
That is what they want, right? I mean, surely they can’t be asking government to conduct one? That’s how we got into this mess after all.
What fucking morons. Why you Americans don’t just change the shapes of the “Stop” and “Yield” signs and stay off the roads for a few days while these illiterate yahoos rid us of themselves for us, I’ll never know.
“Yeah,
BillyLobsterman* Bob, that skull and bones on the bottle of bleach? Put there by the gummint. You ain’t gonna let no liberals tell you what you can and cannot drink, are ya?”*That’s the New England version of a redneck, right?
No shirts shoes or brains, but they have guns.
Their problem is that they will turn them on each other first.
@ Comment 3- Given the people involved, they probably think you can’t accurately predict where to find oil, since all the rock layers were laid down by a single instantaneous flood.
@ Cooment 6- I suspect that it’s the latest scare, now that Communism’s threat is deader than disco, Satanism’s long since gone from the public mindset, and ADHD has taken care of the fear of terrorists.
He has, Pierce. “I don’t think there are any Austrians in the Austrian School of Economics.”
So no UN Rights on the child.
You know, how do I parody this? If I asked “Do you hate children?”, it stops being parody. Seriously, what the hell is with the Teabaggers?
While I lived in Connecticut and Massachusetts, we referred to Maine as New England’s West Virginia.
This obsession that the right wing in the US has with one world government fascinates me. What ever gives them the idea there is the slightest chance of such a thing happening?
This is a part of the paranoid conspiracy theories they believe in. The “New World Order” one-world government is usually seen as the vehicle through which the AntiChrist takes global power.
Most of that is pretty nutty, but they got at least two of them right: The US department of education doesn’t do anything useful, and the UN’s primary purpose seems to be to legitimize dictators.
Of course they want to reduce public education. How else will they ensure a huge uneducated base from which to draw all their votes?
Hmmm. PZ, maybe you should rename the “Humor” category into “Intentional humor”, and make a new one for “Unintentional humor”.
Or maybe just file this post under “Weirdness”, but that wouldn’t quite do it justice, I think.
Well, Abroad is the biggest country in the world, isn’t it.
(Old anti-xenophobe joke: Das größte Land der Welt, das Ausland…)
Yep. A popular initiative to get the sentence “Austria is a social state.” into the constitution failed, however.
Austria’s economic policy has been mainly Keynesian (pretty much the precise opposite of Austrian School economics), interrupted by a brief episode of “ZOMFG teh deficit – we must cut expenses (and raise the taxes through the roof)” a few years ago.
B-) B-) B-)
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
@17:
I think the reason the Dept. of Edu. doesn’t do much useful (I wouldn’t say anything.) is that we have local control of education. If we got rid of that, the Dept. of Edu. could take over and we wouldn’t have such a big difference between the education quality of rich areas vs. poor areas. There might be a decline in the rich areas, but it would be more than made up for in the quality increase in the poor areas.
Of course, the Tea Baggers seem incapable of having such complex thoughts or of thinking of education as anything more than the three R’s: Readin’, Ritin’, and Religion.
Kangaroos?
From the Maine Republican Platform:
Return to those principles? The US never had those principles to begin with.
Austrian School economics is not considered mainstream. Before the Great Depression the Austrians did come up with some useful economic ideas such as the subjective theory of value and contributed to the “economic calculation debate” which concerns the allocative properties of a centrally planned economy versus a decentralized free market economy.
Nowadays the Austrian School is now most frequently associated with libertarian political perspectives from the Cato and von Mises Institutes. Their contributions to modern economics are not even marginal, unless you consider tub-thumping propaganda to be useful.
Well, the teabaggers/liberturds think they have something to say…;)
Yup. And despite the fact that the One World Government has connections all over the world through the Illuminati/Freemasons, has reverse-engineered space-faring alien technology from Roswell, and can construct massive cover-ups such as 9/11, the only thing preventing it from taking over the world are slack-jawed products of sibling incest with more guns than teeth but (at most) two trigger-fingers apiece.
“What’s that? Sounds like a helicopter come to steal our Freedoms! No, don’t wait to see what colour it is, go get Dad’s .22 from the garage!”
This must be a Poe… look – they slipped up and mention ‘evolution’ in the preamble! That doesn’t sound right…
Also, I didn’t keep up with ‘Lost’ after the first season… why do Republicans hate it so much? Was it because they didn’t explain what the polar bear was doing there?
Don’t kangaroos come from New Guinea or New Zealand or somewhere like that?
They reject Lost? BLASPHEMY! Let the Smoke Monster swallow them up!
tacroy #2:
I never watched it, there’s no way I’m getting into it now.
But seriously….
This sheds some light on why Question 1, the anti-same sex marriage referendum, passed.
Since when did ‘We the people’ become synonymous “We the paranoid schizophrenic’. Their one step away from full-blown word salad.
I don’t know why they’re against LOST. I’d think Maine fishermen would be against letting anyone fish the Grand Banks without limit. Or the libertarians are just ignoring the real world again so they can rant about restrictions to exploiting natural resources.
Switzerland and Sweden are also hard to tell apart, what with them both being in Europe and starting with the letter “S”. No, even harder, since they both start with the letters “Sw”. I’ll bet the cultures are practically identical.
btw, what is it with this ungrammatical insistence of using “we the people” as an object? do they not know that “us” and “we” are the same word?
Isn’t Switzerland almost completely surrounded by South Africa?
My jaw dropped as I read that. It really shouldn’t. That seems pretty standard for Tea baggers and republicans. Not big fans of tolerance eh? Any ill mentions of Canada? I want to close our borders…
For people constantly screaming about “FREEEDOM!” tea baggers sure want a hell of a lot of government intervention in my life.
Assholes.
I’ve seen this all over teh intart00bz. Could be related to the phenomenon that so many people seem to believe that and is a preposition that governs the nominative (…I’m trying to say they behave as if and me were automatically wrong, and use and I instead, no matter the context).
They got kangaroos about the time they got their Parliment-Haus der Austr^
alia back.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_vs._Australia
Janet @6
You should probably check out this blog to learn where pretty much most of the right-wing crazy comes from. The blog author is a liberal Christian, but it’s one of the best breakdowns of the whole Rapturist set of crazy out there today and is focused on decontructing their actual bible, the Left Behind books.
Short synopsis:
There is a group of fundamentalists that believe in something called the Rapture where they will be called to Heaven and then God will destroy the world and this will happen any day so you need to live bland empty lives to make sure you “make the cut” while also standing against any attempt to prolong the planet.
They’re big book is called the Left Behind series and it outlines the origins of the rise of the Antichrist and it’s main plotline is about how the Antichrist will talk about peace and uses the UN to seize global power and institute a One World Government with One World Currency and One World Religion.
These books are at the forefront of why any sustainability movement must be resisted and people shouldn’t be worried about running out of resources or anything about the future in general, why any call for peace must be rejected and any call for war supported, why the right-wing rabidly supports Israel while also making lots of veiled slurs against the jews like “liberal Hollywood elite” and “liberal media”, and why anything global and especially the UN are the devil.
Basically, name any batch of right-wing nuttery and dollars to donuts, these books are at the nexus of it.
It’s no surprise as well that the books are written by a Baptist minister who is a lifelong member of the John Birch Society.
Right-wing freakouts make a hell of a lot more sense after working my way through slacktvist’s archives and it’s pretty much the best resource for figuring out the latest conspiracy theory.
I’m consistently almost guilty of that. Whenever I hear “Join Dave and me…” or whatever, I have to pause a second.
Don’t make me come over there…
I’m only a little surprised that it doesn’t also call for the immediate annexation of the Sudetenland.
New England, I’m pretty sure.
Which are you going to, New Guinea or New Zealand?
I also like how right before the article advocating the abolishing of the Dept. of Education, they have Jefferson’s quote about the impossibility of an ignorant, free, and civilized nation.
Total fail.
The more things change, the wingnuttier they get:
Their beliefs are bonkers, but they are at the heart of power (about the 2004 party platfrom on the Texas republan party)
Ever wonder why the republans are associated with the color red? That’s the relativistic light shift as they zoom off into the farthest reaches of mouth-foaming insanity.
As Molly Ivins said about something else: “It probably sounded better in the original German.”
OK, so we will resist “any participation in efforts to create a one world government.”
But it makes no mention of evil alien overlords. How about that huh! I mean, these people are working for the aliens, as they specifically ignore the issue.
New Guinea Kangaroos
This sort of stuff seems so self-evidently nuts that you’d think anyone could see through it, and yet…I have lots of family and some friends who buy into it. And these are not stupid people. They are, for the most part, well educated, well read, and reasonably successful professionally. They are loving and caring parents and grandparents. They treat me and my wife with affection and respect, even though we are on different planets, religiously and politically. Frankly I just don’t get it.
Funny thing here is I know the front runner for the GOP nomination for governor and he’s not a nutjob. I have no intention of voting for Les Otten if he gets the nomination but he is from my home town.
I honestly just don’t get it. We have some crazy teabaggers but I didn’t think enough to get crap like this passed. Even my dad’s crazy conservative Glenn Beck fan boss wouldn’t support this.
I remember when Russia moved into Georgia….
http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/34/2008/08/340x_georgiagooglegoofsmall.png
‘Tis Himself wrote:
Well, I’ll be sure to travel by a boat with only engines to move it. Because I hear sails are for losers…
:)
PZ… you call it a “small step in the ongoing implosion of the Republican party”
To me, though, this seems more like growth of the teabaggers’ influence. It’s terrifying. I think I may need to move to Europe.
How anyone can look at that platform and not conclude that it’s the work of an oligarchy of rich assholes wanting to consolidate their power over everyone else is beyond me.
Swaziland?
Do you know what the carbon footprint of a motor boat is compared to a sailboat?
They want to remove the federal board of education not the state one.
Well, what do you expect from folks who concede that reality has a liberal bias, believe in Jebus but want to purge the Bibble of it’s liberal bias and and want to sandblast Jefferson off of Mt. Rushmore.
Somebody needs to reanimate Leni Riefenstahl and have her come back and make “Triumph of teh Stupid”.
I like to think that this over the top looniness taking over the rethuglican party will result in a “catastrophic election result” in 2012. But my wife warns me that there are an awful lot of people who seem to nod their heads and agree with the tea baggers. Could be scary.
After Bush/Cheney, the Republican Party should have been reduced to a regional party of historical interest only. The Dem. Party leadership has given CPR to this moribund party and it Worked!! They are back.
After seeing the agenda of the Dems and Obama, I have concluded that there is only the American Corporate Party. The fiction of two parties is maintained for the “Street Theater” needed to pass the corporate agenda. The health Insurance Reform is a prime example. As Obama said in one of his petulant moods: “We passed the oppositions’ bill and they still complain”. Street Theater!!
An old friend of mine moved there (Maine) because she was a Libertarian. She thinks she is extremely intelligent, but is known to her friends as one with little to no commonsense whatsoever. To this I would also like to add, “total hypocrite.”
My friend went on welfare rather early after having a kid. She then worked as a call-girl and spent much of her time gambling this other money away as, “she had earned it.”
She also was without a clue as to how to raise her daughter. Because her daughter would often get mad at her little brother and hit him, she thought her daughter had become mentally ill and kept trying to get her hospitalized. The problem was, the hospital kept handing her back saying she was basically a normal kid. She even had an article written up about her in the local newspaper where she claimed the government wasn’t doing enough to help her out. The state did end up taking her daughter away, and she stayed in the hospital and group homes until she became of age. The daughter now lives on SSI and has little idea she is a rather normal girl (I have talked with her numerous times. She is very average in her thinking and actions).
This woman also gave me a huge spew about how stem cell research is wrong and the government shouldn’t have to pay for it as it is “killing babies.” This is the same woman I argued with when she had gotten pregnant by a guy who left her and said she was going to to get an abortion because an unwanted baby will come out mentally ill and/or deformed. She ended up getting the abortion while still on welfare.
I believe she is off of welfare now, but this is more or less due to the fact she is married now and her husbands pays the bills…
Boats have feet?
Jesus, I fucking live there! The Mayor of Calais is Republican… and he teaches my government class.
Hell, who knows much crazy shit he’s taught me!
HenryS says, “After seeing the agenda of the Dems and Obama, I have concluded that there is only the American Corporate Party. The fiction of two parties is maintained for the “Street Theater” needed to pass the corporate agenda.”
Weeelll, except that one party embraces physical reality, while the other thinks it’s a liberal plot. I call that a significant ideological divide.
Thanks to this article, my daughter spawn is now entertaining the family by reading aloud from the official platform of the Texas Republican Party. Thanks a lot, PZ – you’ve certainly made our family evening (NOT).
She’s cracking herself up, though.
Wow – when it comes to economics, they have no clue. The reason financial rules are Byzantine is precisely because businesses want to avoid clear and transparent assessment of their condition, and the rules are there to try and keep them from loopholing out, but never plug all the gaps. If the government had to adhere to the same rules as business – I think the GDP would have grown in 2008 by 34%. At least on paper. Since deficits are not realized losses, and the projected gain from conflict in Iraq is based on Oil futures and prices as speculated in projections assuming recent gains were linear (meaning 2007 oil prices project to $217/barrel in 2015 if all oil reserves are sold at that time). And so on. And I’m not a financial professional.
@59 says, “I like to think that this over the top looniness taking over the rethuglican party will result in a “catastrophic election result” in 2012.”
Like Sarah Palin getting elected? Hard to think of an outcome more catastrophic. So, will Europe give asylum to the intelligent Americans?
@60
Couldn’t agree more. The strength of any real political left (for what it was ever really worth) evaporated many years back, in all corners of the globe.
The heady joys of late 20th century prosperity in the western world, at the expense of the rest of the globe, has galvanized the anti-socialist brigade and their supposed “end of history”.
Of course they may have been correct.
Unchecked free-market capitalism does seem to be teetering on the edge of a social cataclysm. And these monkeys are the cheerleaders.
I can only hope that this works against them in November. Ramp up the crazy enough to push independents over to the left completely. If there’s any other outcome – if the right can get elected on platforms like that – there’s no hope.
honestly just don’t get it. We have some crazy teabaggers but I didn’t think enough to get crap like this passed.
Maybe they were emboldened by fucking over the queers last election.
Fatal flaw in reasoning:
Tragically, those in the greatest need of healthcare are not there because they overspent their health, or risked their health for gain, or decided they needed more healthcare. The Market would say that only the sick would spend for healthcare – so we should insure the healthy. What do you know! That’s how it already works! Problem solved!
Thank you, teabaggers!
Oh, and the privately run “death panels” are so much more efficient with a delay in appeals coordinated with actuary tables based on median survival considering the affliction involved. I.e, we know you’ll succumb before appeals are over, so your children will take up the debt. Thanks.
Ayn Rand must be pinwheeling in Hell.
“As a compassionate society we will aid those in need. However, the government takeover of healthcare is not only unconstitutional, but detrimental to the entire healthcare system. Only market based solutions will solve the problems.”
We of course are offering no alternative because…well fuck the poor. As a compassionate society we respect the right for our serfs to die in a cesspool.
We already had a Tea Bagger light administration, the Bushco disaster. They all but wrecked the country, destroyed the economy and the stock market, started two wars (one pointless, Iraq), and killed a whole lot of people, some Americans. Two of which were my friends, dead in Iraq.
George Santayana: “Those who do not learn the lessons of history, are doomed to repeat them.”
There are a whole lot of forgetful losers out there. If there are enough of them, yeah, we will repeat the lessons of history. Wait and see before all ye abandon hope….again.
#15
Sadly, the new West Virginia is now Virginia. Please oh please don’t let McCooch hear about all this. It gives them idears.
I’m not sure this sort of thing is going to lead to the sort of implosion many on the left hope for. Indeed, this may have the opposite result. It is possible that the wingnuttery of the Tea Party movement may be pushing the Overton window farther to the right.
??? What is this all about?
Just guessing, some fundie xians like to beat up their little kids a lot. Maybe they think the UN is attempting to interfere with their religion and lifestyle.
Got to wonder about an ideology that requires beatings to install. That could result in brain damage. Hmmmm, starting to see a pattern here.
The strength of any real political left (for what it was ever really worth) evaporated many years back, in all corners of the globe.
Well, no.
Here in Canada, our right wing Conservative party occupies about the same band of the political spectrum as your Democratic party. Pro-corporate agenda and evangelical-friendly, but they’re more or less sane. At least, they’re capable of intelligent debate.
Even so, their dog whistles are too loud for them to break 40% in the polls nationwide. They can’t form a majority government despite the fact that the left wing vote is split among four major parties (centrist Liberal, socialist, Quebec sovereigntist, and Green).
In the past decade in Canada, we won the same sex marriage debate decisively enough that not even the Conservatives want to talk about it anymore. The Overton window is shifted way, way to the left of where it is in the states.
I think the piracy thing is a secret agenda to promote the FSM. Ramen.
Why can’t these people get that freedom from religion is a required component of freedom of religion. For example, if a state were to insist that all citizens take communion, the non-catholics would be forced to act in a way outside of their religious beliefs, meaning that they no longer had the freedom to decide which religious practices or opinions to hold. A person is not free to practice religion as they please if they can be denied legal rights or punished for holding or failing to hold a certain religious dogma. The legal definition of freedom of religion is “The right, guaranteed by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, to choose religious practices or to abstain from any without government intervention.” This means that the government can’t tell you must believe in an unequal trinity (Eastern Orthodox) or that you aren’t allowed to practice communion (Catholic). Making people pray to your god or do your relgious ceremonies is a violation of freedom of religion.
It is also in the constitution that there is not allowed to be a religious test for any public office or trust.
These people hate the consitution so much, particularly those nasty amendments like the first, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eigth, thirteenth, fourteenth,fifteenth, sixteenth, nineteenth, and twenty fourth. They sometimes pretend to like the tenth, but they always omit a crucial part “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people” See that ‘notdelegated’ and ‘not prohibited’? That means that the states can only do whatever they want insofar as the federal government hasn’t already made up a rule about it.
” calls for the abrogation of the “UN Treaty on Rights of the Child”
??? What is this all about?
Just guessing, some fundie xians like to beat up their little kids a lot. Maybe they think the UN is attempting to interfere with their religion and lifestyle.
Got to wonder about an ideology that requires beatings to install. That could result in brain damage. Hmmmm, starting to see a pattern here.”
Having went to a really right wing highschool I know. It’s because we’re not allowed to execute minors.
I think I wasn’t clear… I don’t think the teabaggers are secret Rastafarians. I think some Rastafarians may have infiltrated the Teabaggers and are attempting to subvert it from within.
So the Maine Republican party is copping that old, over used and damned near used up attitude that goes a little like this:
We gonna do what we want to do
For reasons of our own.
We don’t really care how you feel about it
Because our sensitivities are more important
Than yours.
We intend to change the nation and the world
Into something that we approve of.
If you don’t like it
You can go pound sand and wail at our Sky Daddy.
(no surprises here, they are still ramming their heads into a wall)
The founders weep.
*tired, very tired . . . the attitude and how it wears on me
You sure they weren’t just infiltrated by The Onion staff?
There’s a plot for a One World Government? Gee, those Elders of Zion are sure good at keeping secrets. I’m in on all sorts of evil conspiracies like Global Warming and Big Oil; how could I have missed out on that One World thing?
Huh. I had no idea that the constitution even mentioned healthcare!
Learn somethin’ new everyday, amiright
I don’t think Barry Goldwater or Ronald Reagan would even recognize the current GOP. Think about that.
What exactly is the One-State World? I mean, what the hell is that? I’ve read the comments here and I STILL have no idea where this nugget came from.
HERE’s the bugbear in the “Rights of the Child” legislation:
It’d allow children to be uppity! And give lip to their elders! (Or possibly make unlawful statutes that say minors have to have parental permission to get abortions)
Weeelll, except that one party embraces physical reality, while the other thinks it’s a liberal plot. I call that a significant ideological divide.
*********
I am just looking at the bottom line of what id coming out of the congress, the Obama/Holder DOJ defending every abuse of the Bush/Cheney proto-police state, etc. The Rethugs are evil and corrupt; the Dems are corrupt and spineless. The so called ideological divide, which I thought existed until this year is the bread and circus act for the constituents. I have a hard time believing that the so-call progressives who still say that Obama is a Liberal but his pro-corporate agenda is 11th dimensional chess are not just a deluded as the tea baggers.
PZ had the right response to Obama on national prayer day:
“Get stuffed, you pandering, unprincipled hack.”
A
Um. Um. Well, you heard it here may 10, 2010, but would not believe it so early : the Republican Presidential nominee for 2012 will come from South Carolina. My opinion of course. But not all opinions are worth the same. Check back with me in about 18 months.
I don’t know what the Law of the Sea Treaty or the Convention on the Right of the Child are. So in an attempt to cure my ignorance I went on to wikipedia which says that the United States has not ratified either of them. Teabaggers are living in alternate reality.
What’s a Can-a-duh? I’m pretty sure Maine borders North Mexico. It’s a well known fact that all foreigners want to get into the United States and prefer to emigrate illegally. There is no reason to think that North Mexicans are any different.
Please don’t… I want to move to your fine country. I’ve even been learning Oh Canada :<
No Kangaroos around here, sorry!
PeteJohn @ #85:
It started with Reagan. At the 1976 Republican National Convention, there was a strong public faction for Reagan (over Ford). In the smoke-filled rooms where the party administrators met, Reagan was consistently referred to as “that wacko from California.” The party thought his ideas were crazy, and called his followers “fanatics.” Four years later, the party was still unhappy with his ideas, but felt he had the best chance of winning the election out of any of the candidates and so they held their noses and voted “for the party.” Four years later, in 1984, he was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I witnessed this firsthand. You are absolutely right, that even the most extreme right wing Republicans from the 1960s and 70s would abhor what one of our two major parties has become.
@ Janet Holmes:
You know the funny thing? In Europe, the local wingnuts claim that the republican party is trying to establish one.
Translation:
One World Gummint = Elders of Zion
Department of Education = Eggheads
Freedom of/From Religion = everyone I know is the same religion so whats the fuss
Healthcare for poor people = just encourages them to be poor – being poor must be discouraged
Austrian Economics = Laissez Faire is too French
No Child Treaty = Ferners tellin us not to beat our children
Law of the Sea = Ferners tellin us not to fish (jeebus wont let us run out of fish)
Teabaggers = nuts
hope that clears things up…they don’t know what the Federal Reserve does but they know they are against it. What they think would have happened if the banking sector totally collapsed I haven’t been able to find out.
I’m taking credit right now for them adding the “freedom of religion not freedom from religion” bullshit.
@PeteJohn:
Speaking as an ex-evangelical (cringe) it’s actually known as “one-world government”, headed by the “anti-christ” (many fundamentalists think it is Obama), and will usher in the “end times” in which Jesus will return from the sky to take believers to heaven with him (the “Rapture”), so they can escape the heavenly blow torch which Jesus will wield to purify the earth of non-believers. Or some variation therewith.
If these people ever get into power (they came close with Bush, except he never was a genuine believer, he just appropriated their language/culture to gain their votes), they will actually provoke a middle east war, involving Israel, in order to get Jesus to return. (Google John Hagee).
I am completely serious. My mother is one of them. These idiots must be stopped before it is too late.
Don’t get complacent, PZ. It’s not an implosion if they win, and current projections have them winning big, maybe even taking back the House.
The utter lack of humanity in this thing is mind blowing. These people have managed to dehumanise themselves entirely.
What do they think happens when someone flees persecution and ends up in the US needing asylum? (You apparently “Arrest and detain, for a specified period of time, anyone here illegally, and then deport, period”: Nice…)
What happens to people unfortunate enough to be both poor and sick?
The irony of the Jefferson quote is fantastic – alongside the beauty of them insisting that they all educate themselves!
And really: can someone tell me what is wrong with the UN treaty on the rights of the child? It can’t just be that they want to be allowed to beat their kids, surely? Pleas tell me that no one is quite that stupid?
The chilling bit is the nod they are giving to the fact that they are out of step with the so called founding fathers – and the justifications for that.
Yet again, I find this terrifying.
What proportion of the US does this represent?
scooterwes writes:
Too late for her/them? Friend, it’s always too late for them and the anti-christ is always the current head of state and the minions said head chooses to promote the current agenda are always his dark angels. Or the pope is the guilty one. Or anyone with authority never mind what the good book has to say about how authority and we must be related. I’ve heard this for nigh on to fifty years now. Tiresome.
Nothing changes except the advance of human knowledge and, slowly, the welfare of people who have and use that knowledge. Those who don’t struggle against old foes, fighting again ancient battles long lost. No matter how compelling the retelling, a battle lost cannot be later won through force of will or through choice of terms.
I can only hope, for our sakes as well as your mother’s, that the generations that are growing now and are now threatening to be born develop large vocabularies and a high regard for the distinctions and subtleties of the words we have made for ourselves. They could easily put us to shame with little effort.
With their (imagined) talent they could have knocked out this comment with about forty two words.
Wonderful.
wow.
Just wow.
this is nuclear-grade stupid.
I read the entire four pages at http://www.mainepolitics.net/sites/default/files/Maine_GOP_platform.pdf .
So. . . what exactly is “Libertarian” about any of that ? most of it is far-right conspiracy nuttery.
Hmmmmm, isn’t there something missing from the TeaGop Platform?
O yeah. This.
It makes my own politics simple (and the truth of this makes me far sadder than my words will convey) in that:
1. I now never have to engage anyone willing to support this movement of Know-Nothing-ism-gone-insane, save as an enemy, since they openly declare I am theirs.
I need not respect them, merely oppose them according to my own principles (they have none.) In dealing with the insane, one does oneself and the mentally-ill harm by untruths. They have no claim on me, in any way.
2. Anyone who chooses to represent this fringe group of “Republican”-constructed Frankenstein monsters as a legitimate political movement is to be treated, until they withdraw the claim or apologize for their deception, with absolute and cold scorn. They are enabling insanity that many of these people will now never escape from.
“Republicans” & “American conservatives” are dishonest, socially-ugly, and doomed by their own choices. If they fail in destroying (literally) this world, they will exist only in its poorest and most hopeless cracks and shadows.
It did not have to be so, but they insist.
YAY!
I’ve been waiting for this to catch on!
Oh, and Mr #17. Drop dead, reanimate, and move to Maine. “They” are calling you.
Yeah, just feck off, leedanielCROCK.
Heh! Shades of the Scientility thread.
Musta got caught on the horns of a meme.
The confusion about where Kangaroos come from is because that happens to be one of the codenames for the teams that operate the UN’s fleet of Black Helicopters™. There are Kangaroo Bases secreted all ever, and inside, the Earth, Moon, and Palin’s head, where Teh True One World Gubbermint© operates from. Consequently, people glimpse Kangaroos everyone, leading to considerable confusion.
The oversized rabbits most people think of as Kangaroos were cloned from unmentionable sources in one of the UN’s secret Laboratories as a cover story once the codename become widely known. Rumour has it that Cheney is also the result of these cloning experiments, but escaped before it could be returned to the vats. This may explain its resemblance to an Orc.
So does this make them more electable or less?
Where I come from we eat Orcs.
Can I assume Kangaroos are as safe to eat?
Thanks and good night. I have to work tomorrow though I won’t know what the job is until the boss calls; early. I’ve put off sleep for too long once again. This blog is a major contributor to my sleep deficit.
Sleep well all ye who will.
Sooooo… you’re saying that the most dangerous nation in terms of unpredictable and unstable people near nuclear weapons is actually the nation with the largest (maybe 2nd largest) stockpile?
Cool. Sweet.
If anyone wants me, I’ll be under my bed…
Truly nutty. But it would fun to watch the GOP–Republicans–collapse onto ifself.
Rachel Maddow mentions this craziness:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#37075195
Fast forward to about 1:27
The folks who put up Ron Paul signs in my area also put up John Bircher-esque signs, like “Get US out of the UN!”
Wow it really does seem that the wingnuts have taken over, I mean there are some good points but those seem mainly to be because they fit in with the conspiracies rather than being arrived at through reason unfortunately.
In terms of crazyness there is their “Global warming conspiracy” theory along with their one world government conspiracy theory. Perhaps that one is a fear that the US will join the EU or something, while completely missing the irony of the US standing for “United States”.
The Austrian Economics thing needs a bit more explanation, especially since I’m sure the wingnuts don’t even know what they’re supporting.
To the best of my knowledge the founders of “Austrian Economics” fled the Nazis, leaving Austria (not Australia grr…) for the US where they set up shop. A basic part of Austrian Economics is the idea that interest rates serve as a signal of how things are going in the economy. High interest rates generally mean times are tough with people focussing on feeding their families etc. Low interest rates mean people have available income which they can save and invest for the future. (Supply + demand, little investment money = high rates, lots of investment = low rates) The idea is that companies etc can’t afford to borrow for big investments in hard times, instead they have to focus on immediate needs, making consumer goods more plentiful (and therefore cheaper) and helping people through the hard times. By contrast in good times there is plenty of resources available to expand and make long term investments with the interest rates so low. The problem is seen as the government instead following Keynesian Economics which says that high interest rates are bad (generally) and should be lowered by having the federal reserve print up more money (with the hopefully manageable side effect of producing inflation). The Austrian economists say this instead hurts those struggling by raising prices for them when they can least afford it and causing general chaos as resources are miss-allocated. In general this is supposed to have been one of the major factors in the recent financial crisis but this is too short to really get into that.
It would seem that this is supported by “conservatives” because it is seen to be a “conservative” position, but we must make sure we do not commit the same mistake they do in rejecting it for the same reason many “on the other side” support it. It should be rejected or supported based on the facts, not on it’s labelling.
Well back to the wingnuttery. It would certainly be interesting to see why the treaties are opposed but most likely that fits in to the whole world government conspiracy thing along with the anti UN stuff. On the other hand it might just fit into the “America is the world” kinda thing that a lot of them seem to have going on where they seem to think they should just shut down all contact with the rest of the world. This would certainly fit with the deportation bit. And getting even more raging crazy we have the freedom of not freedom from religion thing along with the anti gay marriage position, but what more really can be said about those?
Overall it seems a chaotic mess but we shouldn’t just assume it’s all garbage even though most of it actually is.
The guys who made Idiocracy clearly were onto something….
Holy fucking shit. That’s the most stupid and crazy platform I have ever seen from any major political party anywhere in the world. Admittedly, though, I haven’t read all the policy statements of the Khmer Rouge.
Re marsupial distribution: Kangaroos actually come from Antarctica, where they poop on icebergs and wipe their butts with penguins.
Wallabies, on the other hand, come from England and The Netherlands
Deer* infestedtemplar,
It is all garbage. All of it. If they spoke about loving dogs and babies even that would be garbage.
Being reasonable doesn’t mean what you think it means, or else you actually think the people who wrote and voted for all of this can be reasoned with. In which case, and I am very sorry to sound so hard, you’re an idiot whom they will, ala Dead Man, kill, fuck, and eat.
Sioux, I think Templar (Who’s name frankly reminds me too much of Starcraft 2 at the moment) means “We have to read it and analyze it”. And frankly, if they said “We love kids”, I’d have to assume that’s garbage given their hatred for their stance on the rights of children. And ultimately, I agree with him, despite what the smugertarians were saying about my ability to think about others’ positions in the last smugertarian thread. The Tea Baggers are horrible monsters, but it’s because of the positions they’ve endorsed. Their positions aren’t wrong because they’re being stated by horrible monsters. They’re wrong for other, longer reasons, and that’s all he means. I don’t think he’s an idiot for keeping it in mind.
I look forward to the day when the republican party is just a bad memory. Their utter political destruction is quite possibly the best thing that could happen to the Earth because everything else flows from that.
The US is the richest, most pivotal nation state in the history of the world. When finally it is governed by moderate, sensible and enlighthened politicians utopia will be around the corner; At least when compared to the clusterfuck we are currently treated to daily.
I’m optimistic:-) I really am.
Whenever I read this kind of stuff about “illegal aliens”, I tremble to the thought of what they would have done to ET…
Because as we all know, attempts to foster world peace and protect children’s rights are the greatest threat to America right now.
Re: Sioux Laris
Actually to some extent I think I was being a bit unreasonable, because if you read my post I pretty much said that they only chose things because it fit their ideology. I think a lot of them probably are pretty crazy and it may be that the only reason than reasonable bit’s got in was because they happened to fit their ideology. That being said I come from Australia making it a bit harder to judge the crazy/non crazy ratios of US political parties and I think there definitely are at least some sane people getting input into the platform, even if they are in the minority. The congressional reform part is one section that could be good, the following bit’s sound particularly obvious:
On the Kangaroo thing, it was probably just sarcasm but anyway the kangaroo is an Australian animal and even on our coat of arms. Also:
Yes. Further more they are actually quite tasty – I think we might be the only country that eats a national animal like this, though it isn’t common.
Ron suskind in 04:
In the Oval Office in December 2002, the president met with a few ranking senators and members of the House, both Republicans and Democrats. In those days, there were high hopes that the United States-sponsored ”road map” for the Israelis and Palestinians would be a pathway to peace, and the discussion that wintry day was, in part, about countries providing peacekeeping forces in the region. The problem, everyone agreed, was that a number of European countries, like France and Germany, had armies that were not trusted by either the Israelis or Palestinians. One congressman — the Hungarian-born Tom Lantos, a Democrat from California and the only Holocaust survivor in Congress — mentioned that the Scandinavian countries were viewed more positively. Lantos went on to describe for the president how the Swedish Army might be an ideal candidate to anchor a small peacekeeping force on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Sweden has a well-trained force of about 25,000. The president looked at him appraisingly, several people in the room recall.
”I don’t know why you’re talking about Sweden,” Bush said. ”They’re the neutral one. They don’t have an army.”
Lantos paused, a little shocked, and offered a gentlemanly reply: ”Mr. President, you may have thought that I said Switzerland. They’re the ones that are historically neutral, without an army.” Then Lantos mentioned, in a gracious aside, that the Swiss do have a tough national guard to protect the country in the event of invasion.
Bush held to his view. ”No, no, it’s Sweden that has no army.”
The room went silent, until someone changed the subject.
A few weeks later, members of Congress and their spouses gathered with administration officials and other dignitaries for the White House Christmas party. The president saw Lantos and grabbed him by the shoulder. ”You were right,” he said, with bonhomie. ”Sweden does have an army.”
Well thats sounds reasonable, given all the questions that remain about why oil lobbyists in the white house edited the science out of EPA reports and just what Cheney, his energy task force and the fossil fuel industries discussed.
Sweden and Switzerland are easy to tell apart.
Sweden is that huge chunk of Scandinavia that gave us pornography and Ikea. Switzerland is that little landlocked postage stamp full of cuckoo clocks and Nazi gold. And no minarets.
The rejection of the Convention on the Rights of the Child* (aside from a general hostility to the idea that the US is part of an international community) has been based on its suggestion that parents don’t own their children and that children should have a voice, that they have a right to healthcare, and that they shouldn’t be executed or imprisoned for life.
The CRC is the first to include the active involvement of NGOs. The Child Rights Action Network is an excellent source of constantly-updated information and resources:
http://www.crin.org/
*The US and Somalia are the only two countries that haven’t ratified it (although the US government was heavily involved in drafting it and it was signed by Clinton). The Somali “government” has announced that they plan to ratify, which if it happens will leave only the US.
I am horrified by the plausibility of the Republican platform floating well with the voters.
Comment by John B Hodges-
FYI The Austrian School of economics started with Carl Menger, followed by his student Eugen von Bohm-Baverk, followed by Ludwig von Mises, followed by Friedrich von Hayek, culminating in an American, Murray Rothbard. The first two made some real contributions, and Hayek wrote a valuable critique of centrally-planned socialism at a crucial time. By and large these economists can be described as supporters of Capitalism (vs. Socialism), several of them to the extreme of Laissez-faire, opposed to all government taxes, subsidies, regulations, or much of anything except action to protect property rights.
I am horrified by the plausibility of the Republican platform floating well with the voters.
No, I don’t think that is going to happen. PZ has it right; This presages the implosion of the republicans: beholden in primaries to the tassles of the lunatic fringe and thus unelectable in the main event.
Only 25 – 30% of the US electorate are crazy enough to go for this. These are the same people that thought Bush was doing a great job, that Palin was a fine VP and that 9/11 was an inside job. Yeah, consistency isn’t their strong suit. Plus, even this group looks like it my be fragmented by the tea party movement. That corrals the 65-70% that are sane into the democratic bucket.
I can’t tell if this is wishful thinking or genuinely rational, because I do so desperately want to see the ongoing Bush era fallout liquify the republican party. Am I a partisan? You betcha’ and I’m not even American!
I don’t think Barry Goldwater or Ronald Reagan would even recognize the current GOP
Barry Goldwater, to his credit, came out and slammed the theofascist takeover of the Republican Party. Reagan, he of the Medicare is socialized medicine that will destroy the country, would be right there with them. The amnesia surrounding that fuck is amazing to me.
Switzerland: Best spaghetti there is. (Chur?) Sweden: Meatballs with exaggerated forest femininity.
Texas: The rave shall go on forever!
So does this make them more electable or less?
Unfortunately, probably more. American voting publics tend to be fickle, ignorant, and bigoted…exactly like the the Teabaggers.
Oh, by the way – here’s a recent story linked to on CRIN, in case anyone’s interested:
“AFRICA: MPs push for continent-wide FGM/C ban”
http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?ReportID=89028
Wow. Isn’t Olympia Snowe from Maine? If these nuts make up the base of the Republicans over there, she might want to consider a party switch à la Specter.
These people fucking scare me.
Sweden: Meatballs with exaggerated forest femininity. – puseaus
Translation please!
these people are a perfect example for paranoid delusions. give everyone a gun, get everyone we don´t like out of the country, seal the borders, and then, by god, show these camel drivers, what our freedom means to us! and while at it, beat your kids and everyone who does not align into submission. who in their right mind, would vote something like that? it reads like hitlers gleichschaltungsgesetz.
Religion, overriding your evolved sense of compassion and humanity for 2000 years.
Of course when compassion means “starve and mistreat the poor” and humanity means “hate all foriners” then it’s no surprise these people think such things come from the bible.
coughlanbrianm #128,
Wishful thinking, I’m afraid. The Republicans have a genuine chance of taking back the House in the fall, and are set to pick up at least half a dozen Senate seats. Ousting moderates in favour of fringe activists should doom their chances per the Median Voter theorem, but take Marco Rubio in Florida, for example – he’s now the frontrunner in a state that only tilts slightly towards the Republicans. Unless lots of Americans forget about their dissatisfaction with the current Congress and choose the lesser of two evils, it’s going to get much, much harder, if not even impossible, to implement at least some elements of the progressive agenda after the fall elections.
Why can’t we get ugly the way they get ugly?
We need to play dirty too.
I can’t help but wonder how many non-right-wing Ron Paul supporters realize that he’s a Creationist…
I’m pleased that the Republican crap about repealing the healthcare bill has died down.
Hayek wrote a valuable critique of centrally-planned socialism at a crucial time. – John B. Hodges
Valuable in the sense of so completely wrong you can use it as a practical guide to what is right, presumably. Hayek claimed that any government intervention in the economy led inexorably to tyranny, and so has been conclusively refuted by events. Also, despite the horrors of Stalinism, and the common perception that centralised planning was a complete failure, it did enable the Soviet Union to build the industrial base to defeat Hitler, and keep up the Cold War with an opponent starting from a hugely advantageous position for nearly half a century. It also formed the basis of the economic rise of both China and India, although of course it needed to be partially abandoned to permit later stages of development.
Carl Menger (1840-1921), Friedrich von Wieser (1851-1926) and Eugen von Bohm-Bawerk (1851-1914). Other major figures are Ludwig von Mises (1880-1973), Friedrich A. Hayek (the 1974 Nobel Laureate), Ludwig Lachmann, Israel Kirzner and Murray Rothbard
yea, none of these guys had anything useful to say.
And where is the collectivist utopia promised by all the Marxists? Just over the next hill, around the next century?
And who brought us unemployment, stable property prices, and smoothed the buisness cycle just as planned? How’s that Keynesian claptrap workin out for all you homeowners around the world right now?
You dont’ like the Austrians because they dont lie to you. They tell you you cannot control the market, they are right. Larry Summers and Krugman just know they can influence things and if they mess up, oops, but our intentions were good, not like those meanie Austrians. Mama told them they were special and their hero was Hari Seldon, after all.
leedanielcrocker @ 17,
They also have a tendency to put out completely useless warnings such as this one…
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jE1B4h3jvFNR4Uxlov2QdNuFgmRw
Hey look on the bright side, when the global ecology collapses chances are real good that the Tea Party folk will go extinct, along with the rest of us. Yeah those people sure are dumb!
Knockgoats @135. It’s pretty obvious from my point of taste. The basic flavor of pine, the blood from a half dead elk (just shot by a drunken Värmlandic hunter), the grainyness of asphalt…
The tea party platform seems to boil down to protecting the most selfish and twisted nasty parts of White (with a capital W) culture and society at all costs.
I can’t help but wonder how many non-right-wing Ron Paul supporters realize that he’s a Creationist…
…and a heterosexist misogynist….
Most people here aren’t Marxists.
Nah, more because they’re* idealogues who aren’t living in the real world and because their policies would be disastrous for society.
* Those of the Austrian school, not the Austrian people whom I have nothing against.
#125:
What are the practical consequences to those countries who have ratified it but continue to have a poor record of rights for children?
Can we not just say he is a complete arsehole ?
My sense of compassion has shrunk in size largely because of the Tea Party. So I’m not terribly concerned about them.
The fact that this would affect the rest of us is a problem, though.
do tell, Feynmaniac, which Austrian school policy would be dangerous to society?
easy credit lending environment?
a government bent on increasing homeownership, regardless of credit risk?
long stretches of low interest rates, set by the government?
printing money as a way out of public debt?
guaranteed government backed retirement at age 60, regardless of increases in lifespan? Change that retirement age to 50, if you do dangerous work like hairdressing
After you’ve worked your self into high dudgeon at the mere sight of Hayek’s name, do you have any scorn to spare for some of these lovely non-Austrian policies?
Hey, we may have a crazy conservative streak up here, but there’s no way this will fly in a general election. I actually hope they do run on this platform. The Tea Party is pretty much our best hope for a democratic victory. Their uncompromising vision should lead them to split the vote, and there seems to be enough morons to make a difference. Keep at it you bell-ringing, tri-corner-hat-wearing, not-understanding-what-you’re-mad-at doofuses.
mfd512 asks “How’s that Keynesian claptrap workin out for all you homeowners around the world right now?”
Well, let’s see. Markets seem to like it pretty well. The economy is growing again after the biggest shock since the Great Depression–and in less than 18 months. Employment is coming back–albeit slowly. It would appear that Keynes has done rather well. But, hey, I live in a real world. Drop us a postcard sometime.
PeteJohn says, “I don’t think Barry Goldwater or Ronald Reagan would even recognize the current GOP. Think about that.”
Well, given that Reagan was senile by his second term, he didn’t even recognize Nancy.
Nice. I might have to T-Shirt that one…
“do tell, Feynmaniac, which Austrian school policy would be dangerous to society?”
Fixed currency. Just look at South America.
WOW!!! What a poorly made strawman. A 1 year old kid or a cat could do better.
Nonlibertarians, Democrats, and normal people are not equal to Marxists.
But you knew that and just decided to toss together a strawman and then cold bloodly murder it. An ideology that depnds on pure lies whose advocates all seem to be insane and dishonest has nothing going for it.
And BTW, the Marxist utopia is right next to the Libertarian utopia. Both are deep in La-La fantasy land. The closest thing to a Libertarian utopia right now is….Somalia. No government but you can get as rich as you want quickly. The two leading careers are “pirate” and “warlord”.
Libertarian != lawless
Somalia = strawman
HenryS, First, I don’t think it is fair to call Obama unprincipled. He is a politician who knows how to count. But even if he were unprincipled, he acknowledges the existence of physical reality. The alternative rejects it as a liberal conspiracy. Let me make it simpler:
Republican platform: Reality is a liburl conspiracy by the UN to take away our guns and freedom.
Democrats: Yup! Reality exists.
A clear distinction.
As I’ve pointed out to several wingnuts the constitution in fact does say freedom FROM the establishment of a state religion. The freedom to worship whatever delusion you want is only as good as not being to forced to believe in a specific delusion.
They don’t want freedom of religion. They want the freedom to practice their religion (and gummint to keep their damned dirty ape hands out of it) but everyone else can go scratch.
President Bill Clinton. As you don’t know because you are stupid, Clinton left office with low unemployment, a healthy economy, a budget surplus, and peace.
And who brought us high unemployment, a collapsed stock market, housing crisis, a huge recession and two wars?
President George Bush. Who has far more in common with Libertarian’s mythology than Clinton did.
Libertarians are so like Marxists that they could be clones. Utopian economic systems disconnected from reality that have been proven not to work. These days both are the domain of lunatic fringers. The rest of the world is tired of suffering while ideologues try to jam square pegs into round holes.
Calling Obama unprincipled is like calling the tea party rational.
@PZ Myers
By the way, abolition of the Federal Reserve and adoption of a non-fiat currency would probably be a good move.
There is a pretty convincing argument that the housing bubble and the extreme debt in US economy (330% of GDP)is the result of it’s policies.
The country’s political elite is too corrupt to stave off what is coming.
By the way, what would be so wrong with closing the borders ? U.S. of A. has what, 15% unemployment rate(if you compute it honestly). I doubt it needs more unskilled labour..
One has to wonder when David Duke is going to get picked up on the Tea Bagger’s official OK list.
So much for the myth that the teabaggers are libertarians. They are against big government when it comes to regulating the economy and protecting consumers, but for big government when it comes to any science they disagree with, theocracy, marriage, social issues and immigration. We’re all screwed if these nutbars get back in power for another eight years!
By the way, abolition of the Federal Reserve and adoption of a non-fiat currency would probably be a good move.”
No it wouldn’t because guess what GOLD IS A FIAT CURRENCY!
@mfd
Ok, as an ignorant hick (eg a Londoner with free-at-point-of-delivery healthcare), who creates & polices a libertarian legal system then?
I’ve always wondered that.
As a note I am, in a lot of ways, an ideological anarchist but I know human nature well enough to know that it won’t work!
Seriously, ANY currency other than food and water or other barter systems is fiat. it has value because we say it does and has no other use. Other wise you’re using abstract units that represent claims to resources. non-fiat does not fix shit…
In a lot of ways, economics is a consensual fantasy. I suspect this is one of the reasons libertarians and marxists are attracted to their ideas: if only everyone would participate fairly!
And truthfully, communism or libertarianism could probably work, if only everyone participated according to the will of the consensus. And that’s why both fail.
Too many people are willing to fuck over other people for their own gain. We see that even with a regulated economic system. Imagine how terrible it would be with an unregulated system.
@nigelTheBold
Yep, pretty much. Which is why I’d definitaly class our current system as more corporatist then capitalist… And as such “laissez faire capitalism” is skewed if applied to this framework – so basically the individual would be fucked if govt controls are unilaterally dropped.
the American Constitution is the most Libertarian document in use in the world, and America, not Somalia or Haiti, began as the most Libertarian country. Socialist incremental-ism has worn this away to no small effect.
Yes, slavery and the 3/5’s amendment are capital M Major strikes against this. On this blog I need say out loud that these are NOT Libertarian policies, and American became MORE Libertarian (Freedom for all people, not just white) when they were done away with.
A government with the power to defend from invaders, enforce property rights and voluntary contracts between citizens is all well within the spectrum of Libertarian political thought.
You’re an anarchist for cryin out loud and you question Libertarianism’s workability?
So basically they just added all the stupid things they could come up with. Amazing.
I don’t think this is going to be the implosion that many on this blog are wishing for. As a general rule, who ever has the most motivated electorate is who does well in the election. In the presidential election it was the DNC and Obama won. Then the core of the RNC was divided because Bush turned out to be just another big government pres. and McCain while consistently against pork and other wasteful spending was hard to get excited about. This election it appears that with the Tea Party people hitting full swing it may swing Republican. We may also see an upswing in Libertarians winning elections.
Oh, and as always when someone comes up with something idiotic…
Liberals are just as bad!
Are you an idiot? The Constitution was a deliberately overbroad document written to serve as a compromise that would allow folks for a strong and a weak central government to agree. That’s why there’s all those elastic clauses we’ve been bending to allow a strong central government. Even Jefferson played that game.
I have no opinion on whether this will lead to implosion or not. The only real evidence I can think of is the Whig Party, which died when it became the party of the anti-democrats, which appears to be what the republicans are shaping themselves into. Then again, I don’t think the whigs had such good tribal warfare instincts..
a_ray_in_dilbert_space @154,
Actually you live in a world of deep denial and delusion, here’s your post card.
http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Tipping%20Point.pdf
Now that, is the real world!
Not really. Whoever has the most votes wins elections in democracies. Extremists are usually motivated crazies but there usually aren’t all that many of them.
I wouldn’t count on an implosion either. Wishful thinking and common sense often don’t count for much in politics. And counting chickens before they hatch is always unwise.
These days nothing surprises me anymore. If the American people want to jump out of the frying pan of Bushco GOP incompetence into the fire of GOP extremism and incompetence, it’s too bad but it is what it is.
Most Theothuglican candidates aren’t going to run on these platforms drawn up by lunatic fringers. Not if they want to be elected.
Here on the coast, the Libertarian party candidates usually ended up with a few percent to 5% of the vote. In most cases, they siphoned off votes from the GOP to the advantage of the Dems.
The interplay between the ‘baggers and Republican politicians who are now running to the right reminds me uncomfortably of the Arab political situation in 1948. A lot of the top
Arab politicians were fairly moderate and pragmatic, and were willing to accept Israel’s existence. But they’d come to power through wild flights of inflammatory rhetoric, and that’s what their street-level constituents wanted to hear. So Arab leaders became prisoners of their own rhetoric, pushed into extremist positions they knew were untenable. I suspect that something similar will happen with Republicans: even longtime moderates will cave to the extremists in hopes of clinging to power. It’ll take the disastrous implementation of some ‘bagger policies to convince moderate Repubs to abandon them. In short, things will get worse before they get better.
For those who can’t comprehend what the problem is with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, here is an example of the Faux News slant on issue.
Sample quote:
There’s some great language manipulation in the article. Like above: the treaty “creates” rights (by godless humans in Europe): they’re not Christian-god-given, dontchaknow.
Basically, it’s the religious right, especially religious-based homeschoolers, afraid that they won’t be allowed to inculcate their children into their lifestyle choice. Not being able to use corporal punishment also seems to be a huge concern. And of course there’s teen consensual sex and abortions.
Fred the Hun,
Since we are talking about the difference between Keynesian response and an Austrian response to the financial meltdown, I fail to see what Peak Oil–which is ignored entirely by both schools–has to do with the discussion.
I am well aware of Peak Oil. I am also aware of climate change, aquifer depletion and salinization, decreasing cropland fertility, the dying oceans. Further, I am aware that Peak Oil will not avert the coming climate crisis, since some ingenious fool will find a way to use coal, tar sands, oil shale and pretty much anything else we can burn to maintain the delusion of unlimited growth.
I did not mention these issues because I was dealing with a Libertarian Idjit, who raised a very narrow, glib objection to interventionist economics.
I’m embarassed to say the Iowa GOP platform is every bit as bad…..without the help of the tea baggers: teach “creation science” “homos bad” abolish Federal Reserve,”freedom of religion not FROM religion” etc. etc. Oy.
Rutee, in your estimation, is there a document more Libertarian than the U.S. Con. in use in the world today?
That was my claim. It was not that Libertarians, if given the chance today, would write the U.S. Con verbatim.
mfd512,
OK, if the US constitution, which is hardly libertarian, is the most libertarian document “in use” today, what does that tell you about the pragmatism of libertarianism?
I hope not but who knows?
Toynbee pointed out that of 22 civilizations that fell, 19 decayed and destroyed themselves from within.
Within my lifetime, 2 have gone down. The British empire is gone and the Soviet Union collapsed suddenly.
Historically, all civilizations end one day. It may just be the turn of the American civilization and the Tea Baggers are just large rats gnawing at the walls with some success.
Stepping back, in terms of person buying power the USA has been declining slowly for decades. Real unemployment is probably 15% or so and the bogus government stats at 9% aren’t so good either. The USA is projected to go majority nonwhite in a few decades. California already is. Peak oil, AGW, population pressures, and so on.
I wonder how much of the present wingnuts-running-wild is just people reacting to ominous present circumstances and trends, a symptom not a cause. It’s not smart or adaptive, but mobs in the streets aren’t known for that anyway.
Is this another case of “freedom of religion doesn’t mean freedom from religion except all the other ones”?
“Most libertarian document,” mfd512? How about the Libertarian Party platform? How about the writings of the Austrian economists you worship? Those are all documents.
No debater who makes such sloppy statements can be taken seriously.
What really bothers me is that some of your nonsense is moving north into Canada. Apparently, stupidity knows no borders. Toronto city councilors are all squawking about faith based initiatives.
Libertarian political thought. mfd512
*chuckle*
*snort*
*guffaw*
The crash of 2008, of course, followed years of deregulation – including the removal of controls specifically imposed after the crash of 1929 to limit systemic risk in the banking system. The crash of 1929 followed a similar orgy of deregulation. But glibertarians, being completely insulated from reality, simply insist that if only the remaining regulations had been removed, everything would be just dandy.
Fred-the-Hun,
I don’t think a_ray_in_dilbert_space’s point was incompatible with yours: Keynsianism has indeed prevented the world economy collapsing as per the last big crash: that’s what it’s good for. It will not, as you point out, do anything to deal with impending resource shortages (or AGW): for those, far more radical departures from laissez faire are needed.
it tells me that political systems work best when heavily skewed away from the state and toward the individual, but yes, there still needs to be a state. No anarchy here.
“it tells me that political systems work best when heavily skewed away from the state and toward the individual, but yes, there still needs to be a state. No anarchy here.”
This individuality stuff is a bunch of crap. The bilious bastards who wrote that stuff about individuality for the Saturday Evening Post don’t know anything more about real battle than they do about fornicating.
Within my lifetime, 2 have gone down. The British empire is gone and the Soviet Union collapsed suddenly. – raven
Neither of these was a civilisation in any meaningful sense – just political formations. Arguably the Soviet Union was a failed attempt to create a new civilisation.
Good question. First, it establishes a fundamental respect for children’s rights at the international level, encouraging broader cultural shifts within countries. All ratifying countries have to submit regular reports to the UN on the state of children’s rights. Since, as I mentioned, this is the first convention that actively involves the participation of NGOs, these are involved in the reporting and efforts for change. Take a look at the organizations in various countries that are participating in establishing and maintaining children’s rights (click on any country):
http://www.crin.org/
(I called it the Child Rights Action Network earlier; it’s the Child Rights Information Network.) Given the fact that the convention is ratified and the institutionalization of their participation, they now have a far more favorable environment in which to work.
***
http://www.counterpunch.org/grandin11172006.html
Bullshit alert!
find me one libertarian who promises you the world will be dandy
Thats just the point. They accept human beings will never behave just dandy, and contra Keynesians, they dont promise otherwise.
“find me one libertarian who promises you the world will be dandy
Thats just the point. They accept human beings will never behave just dandy, and contra Keynesians, they dont promise otherwise.”
And yet they insist we don’t need restrictions on non-dandy behavior? Pull the other one.
@122:
On a rather funny side note, many Swedes would actually agree with Bush and claim that we have no army. At least not one large enough to defend us from an invasion from ye olde arch-enemy Russia.
mfd512,
Actually, the US constitution is an amazing triumph of pragmatism. It’s main purpose was to remedy the lack of a strong federal government in the Articles of Confederation. But for that remedy, we likely would have gone the way of S. America.
The primary moving forces behind the Constitution can hardly be said to be libertarian. Nor can Washington, without whose influence it never would have been ratified.
Keep in mind, the Founding Fathers were feeling their way in the dark here. There had never been a “democratic” government–or indeed any government that did not rest on divine right. Unlike Cromwell et al., they at least had Rousseau as a guide, but they had to give a form to the government. As Franklin said, “Nations come into the world like bastard children–half improvised, half compromised.”
Unlike you, I see the Constitution as a masterpiece of compromise and pragmatism–not libertarianism.
This is what I dont get. All my liberal buddies who pose about hating capitalism and stuff while blogging on Apple computers I thought would have been so pleased in 2008. My favorite sign from that time was the ‘Jump you Fuckers’ scrawled on a cardboard box parading on Wall street.
Every once in a while, capitalist greed turns on itself and we get to watch the thing do down in flames. You socialists are all too grim to enjoy your Schadenfreude and you insisted on bailing out those greedy bastards, which I must tell you they knew you’d do all along.
@ Aray
Not to mention there was honest depute on whether the populace was qualified to handle democracy, (in general the consensus was they wern’t) and whether they should try to raise the people through education and social engineering up to democracy or cater the law to the oafs. Maddison presented the compromise what we ran with.
I’m using the term “civilization” in a loose colloquial sense. And they didn’t collapse into a Dark Age or stone age either.
Identifiable discrete socio-economic-political entities that fell down and went owie might be more accurate. But it doesn’t convey the meaning of what happened.
And while the British or Soviets might not have ended up dying en masse, the amount of suffering of the populations was nontrivial. They are also not what they used to be, globe spanning, powerful, rich empires.
They [glibertairians]accept human beings will never behave just dandy – mfd512
But they think the “invisible hand of the market” will sort it all out. Sane people, of course, do not believe human beings will “behave dandy” either: but they believe we need to design institutions to deal with this, and modify them to take account of problems as they arise.
Atlas Shrugged?
But if you wanna rally behind a document that is as strongly aligned against your position as it is for it, by way of incredibly elastic clauses, as if it were unambiguously behind you, you go right ahead. Market deregulators have been appropriating On the Wealth of Nations, so why the hell shouldn’t you try your hand at the Constitution?
That depends strongly on your definition of dandy. I have in fact heard my moron professor make the claim that everything would be significantly better if government stepped out. Not perfect, I think, but better. Apparently she didn’t pay attention in her history classes, but whatever.
A fair enough assesment, Dilbert, though I think my point stands. The FFathers were trying to find the sweet spot between state and individual. Its the furthest system down the spectrum towards the individual and the most successful(which I grant does not imply further towards the individual = better)
but just because the Art. of Con. failed does not mean a strong central government can fix all the social ills we ask of it.
Just re-read all the campaign promises of the last 100 years. Whither obscenity before the power of the V-chip?
The very capitalist greed, or, put more softly, self-interest that libertarians worship so much? And unfortunately, we don’t get to lean back and watch the thing go down in flames from a safe distance while smugly saying “Told you so”. We’re right in the middle of the mess they created, and if the governments hadn’t bailed them out, it would’ve been even worse. Which, given your enormous knowledge of economics, I’m sure you would agree would not have been a rational thing to do. And if reasonable politicians and economists suggest control mechanisms that would at least reduce the risk of another speculative bubble, libertarians are the first to rally against regulations that impede private entrepreneurship and risk-taking. What an awesome philosophy.
You do realize that if I had my way, we’d be nerfing their pay scale down to the European model, and sending their pay to the workers in the form of benefits and stock options, right? I sure as fuck wasn’t consulted on how to handle the bailout money.
And I don’t mean their on paper pay, where the benefits and golden parachutes are unaffected. I mean their very real pay, in toto, after all dipshittery is had and done.
It was not socialists who demanded the money be given with no strings aside from an immediate payback, let me tell you what.
And while the British or Soviets might not have ended up dying en masse, the amount of suffering of the populations was nontrivial. – raven
True in the Soviet case, but not in the British: in Britain itself, loss of empire coincided with the greatest degree of prosperity and freedom ever; many other parts of the empire had considerable problems (most notably, the bloody partition of India and subsequently, the Bangladesh war of independence), but pretty near all of them benefited within a relatively short time. India, for example, had devastating famines throughout British rule: since independence, none, although there is still a lot of chronic malnutrition.
You just keep getting funnier, mfd512. Socialists bailed
out Wall Street? Puhleeeze. Capitalists bailed
out Wall Street, saving their own asses with public money. But of course they tried to pin the blame on imaginary socialists, knowing that though it was a ludicrous assertion, a few blithering idiots (such as yourself) would serve as their chorus of parrots.
you mean like the Fed and its ability to prick bubbles before they pop with a master-banker at lever over interest rates? Cause that control mechanism has been working awesome.
Meanwhile, in EU land, a Trillion Euro has been quantitatively eased into the Greek void and the Euro continues to sink against the dollar. Fiat Gold is at 1200$ an ounce and rising. I got in at 850$, you?
Knockgoats @190,
Except that the world economy is indeed in the process of a far greater collapse, than what you call the last big one, as we speak.
Alan Greenspan, who was a student of the Great Depression totally missed the boat, by his own admission in preventing what we are now experiencing in the US.
Europe, for example, is totally fucked and the economic growth of China is just another massive delusion that is completely unsustainable.
I could easily start to tie in every corner of the global economy that will soon tumble in domino fashion.
So Keynsianism is no longer a viable model for the prevention of collapse. Let alone for helping us out of multiple predicaments, of resource shortages and global ecological devastation, of which climate change is but one problem.
Ironically, that one may be the one issue which might be somewhat mitigated due to less need for fossil fuel, though the jury is still out…
Let me know if you have some ideas as to what those might be, I’d love hear them.
at least mfd implicitly cops to the fact that while most libertarians don’t think libertarianism would lead to a good future for everyone, it would be “just dandy” for them (ah, the Galt fantasy). Good luck with that, mfd, chances are you’d be screwed with the rest of us.
Its times like these that I am glad I have a British passport as well as a US passport.
Going Galt:
Because I want to watch rich people kill each other after they realize they really, really don’t want to clean the toilet. Or, for that matter, construct the building that houses the toilet.
They’d be screwed first.
Yeah, an organization headed by Ayn RAnd’s wannabe bitch was going to take a real interventionist standpoint on the market. I’m not sure how that jackass got there, but he should never have been allowed in.
Brownback, Shelby, Allard, Demint, Dole, Vitter, Inhofe.
They voted against TARP. These are not the names of Keynsians. And TARP was a Bush-era bill.
Though I will give a shout out to Feingold and B. Sanders, real Socialists with the stones to vote against TARP.
No, I’m talking about things like putting the Glass-Steagall Act back in place, even tighter constraints on leveraged speculations, raising financial transaction taxes, and limiting payment schemes that induce people to seek out high-risk investments. You know, the whole lot of reasonable ideas that have been put out there, but for some reason aren’t too popular with the Wall Street crowd and its lobby. Knockgoats made pretty much the same point a few posts above, but you weren’t willing to address the contradiction between moaning about a failure of regulation and promoting total freedom of individual action back then, so I’m not holding my breath that you’ll do it now. Have a nice day in libertarian dreamland.
Ah, I see.
mfd is a troll. Not “Someone who disagrees with me” and not “A tone troll”. “I will say whatever gets me the most lulz by angering folks”.
Carry on with your days, folks.
Comprehension fail. The Fed itself is an intervention on the market. Its mission is to stabilize the currency and smooth the business cycle. It failed (“No Shit”, from the Austrian economic chorus). Greenspan, a human being, was corrupted by the power he held. If Ayn were alive she’d stub out her cigarette on his cheek.
The lesson I take is that the Fed doesnt work, so why bother. The lesson Keynsians take is the Fed needs more power, so give it over. I wouldnt worry to much if I were you, you’ll win the political argument and you will be permitted to fail again as long as you repeat the required soothing platitudes. Gold 1500$ here we come.
The founding fathers didn’t seem so concerned with the Native American’s property rights. Also, when the US developed in the 19th century it enforced some where powerful protectionist measures (as did Germany).
Anyways, the constitution was developed before businesses got the kind of power we see today. Thomas Jefferson said “Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies” and I doubt he would support a libertarian system where the corporate power would run wild.
When one side has overwhelming power, money and leverage over another a “voluntary contract” can hardly be said to be fair. Libertarians largely ignore the fact that private powers can be just as dangerous as government power. At least in government the people have some voice.
Anarchism means more than just ‘no/less state’.
@Raven #187
” The USA is projected to go majority nonwhite in a few decades. California already is.”
You say this like it is a bad thing. Are you sure that is what you mean?
~will
I just felt a shiver down my spine…are you actually Glenn Beck?!
The One World State shit is old, it may have gone into recess while others took greater prominence but I remember Cold Warriors obsessing about it, only back then the damn commies (where? under the bed of course) were supposed to be involved. The UN always was. This was back in the ’70s when I was becoming politically conscious.
Know your enemy.
No shit, says I, who payed attention during 2000 to 2008. If you get a bunch of people who take loud positions against something, and put them in charge of the thing they hate, shit will not go well.
Tell someone who gives a rat’s ass.
*Spits* Hey, I didn’t put those words there, what gives?
I don’t know if the Fed itself needs more power, actually. But it should be more willing to use what it has, and not simply act as though the market will automatically sort itself out. We already saw what happens when you leave markets alone. Microsoft wishes it had the monopolies
Standard Oil had.
It’s so fucking hilarious that you act as though you haven’t failed. Really. Go read a history book.
And TARP was a Bush-era bill. mfd512
And your point is? TARP was an emergency measure to prevent complete collapse of the financial system, with resultant collapse of trade and consequent mass starvation within weeks (most businesses, in particular those responsible for food supply depend on rolling over loans for their working capital – if banks could not lend, food would not be transported).
Fred the Hun,
Except that the world economy is indeed in the process of a far greater collapse, than what you call the last big one, as we speak.
Except it isn’t.
Alan Greenspan, who was a student of the Great Depression totally missed the boat, by his own admission in preventing what we are now experiencing in the US.Europe, for example, is totally fucked
*Looks out of the window at my corner of Europe*
Nope. Still functioning.
the economic growth of China is just another massive delusion that is completely unsustainable.
Tell me about it when that growth stops.
I could easily start to tie in every corner of the global economy that will soon tumble in domino fashion.
Soon. Ah. I see.
Look Fred, we’re agreed that capitalism is environmentally unsustainable, but it’s a question of timescale: you have given no reason at all to think it’s about to collapse. It’s all about what you think is about to happen, not about what has happened.
Apropos to the discussion, the laissez-faire attitude of the British in India (and in Ireland) aggravated the situations. So this is not just hypothetical.
No. “You say this like it is a bad thing.” I did not, and don’t appreciate false misattributions. The point is what is really driving the Tea Bagger wingnuts.
Declining standard of living for one. And less than 1% of the Tea Baggers are black or hispanic. The vast majority of them are white, many are middle class slipping downward, and many are outright racists. The demographic shift undoubtedly makes them somewhere between nervous and horrified.
It is quite possible that they are a symptom, not a cause.
Knockgoats, to my sincere consternation I can’t remember what my friend who’s well versed in China had to say specifically.
However, it sounded similar to what Fred is saying about China. And I’ll remind you that everything seemed fine until our house of cards was blown on.
It is just part of standard lunatic fringe babbling.
The New World Order, the One World State, the UN, satanists stealing babies and draining their blood, evolutionists, Illuminati, Free Masons, the Elders of Zion, commies, alien abductions with and without anal probes, and on and on.
@mfd
I’m well aware that anarchy won’t work, even if it might be a great idea in theory.
Ditto with libertarianism.
Ditto with communism.
As individuals we will be at the mercy of corporations (who, through collective wealth and numbers will hold power that, as individuals, you cannot fight). We’ll be in even bigger shit order then we are now.
I’ll admit that government can be, and is, wasteful. I wish that it wasn’t but at least it’s notionally responsible to the people…
@Raven #226
My apologies. I misunderstood you. Entirely my fault.
I most strongly agree that America realizing that it is part of a larger and more shaded world gets right up the teabagers collective nose. From what I have seen here in the northwest most if not all of the baggers are solidly racist but we may just have a nasty strain of the little buggers.
Again @Raven. Very sorry. Today I am a poster of very little brain.
~will the red faced
Sorry about the failure to close the italics tag@224, but I think it’s clear what is mine and what is Fred-the-hun’s.
And I’ll remind you that everything seemed fine until our house of cards was blown on. – raven
Not so – plenty of people from a range of viewpoints warned of the dangerous instability of the credit-fuelled boom in asset prices. What no-one knew, because this is simply not predictable, was what particular straw would break the camel’s back.
Apropos to the discussion, the laissez-faire attitude of the British in India (and in Ireland) aggravated the situations. So this is not just hypothetical. – Feynmaniac
Indeed so. In both cases, grain was being exported to Britain even during mass starvation – because that was where most profit could be made. Still, it was only poor people, brown or with funny accents, who died, so most glibertarians wouldn’t be bothered.
Hey SC, back at #195.
No love for Pinochet the man here, and if he and Kissinger share shackles in hell for eternity it’ll be too good for them, but its worth noting that Chile today is the the strongest economy in South America. Pinochet also presided over a peaceful transfer of power to a democracy.
Just think what Venezuela could be with a few capitalists down there running their oil companies. Maybe one day.
You do not get brownie points for a peaceful transfer of power to a democratically elected government when you seized power from a democratically elected government by force.
mfd512 says, “This is what I dont get.”
There’s a lot you don’t get. First, did it ever occur to you that we didn’t want to see people suffer needlessly? Did it ever occur to you that many of us are not socialists–that we merely see that letting unbridled greed have free reign isn’t a good idea?
One need not be a radical to be disturbed by the fact that the richest 1000 families in the world control 10% of the world’s wealth.
Like in Nigeria ? The people there have really benefited from all that oil.
I didn’t say what is being quoted first.
But a lot of people saw the housing/stock market bubble collapse coming a mile away. Millions at least, maybe tens of millions.
We pulled almost all of our money out of the stock market before it crashed and crawled into the metaphorical bunker. It turned out OK.
Some of my friends are struggling to hold onto their houses and pay down their credit cards and one bailed out of their house right before the crash and thereby avoided bankruptcy. They won’t be voting GOP.
mfd512 says, “Fiat Gold is at 1200$ an ounce and rising. I got in at 850$, you?”
Jonny come lately. I bought back in the 90’s at $305 an ounce, and platinum at $405. A lot of fucking good it will do me or you.
That’s quite the interesting list you’ve got there.
Just think what Venezuela could be with a few capitalists down there running their oil companies. – mfd512
Exactly what it was when that was indeed the situation: a shithole, with a small number of rich scumbage and a mass of largely illiterate poor without access to healthcare. Just as you’d like, in other words.
Just like Nigeria is now.
Knockgoats,
First, I have very close ties to more than a few parts of Europe, if you don’t yet see the collapse, I think you will, sooner rather than later.
Once the bailouts of the economies of countries such as Greece by the Germans start to fail, you will see it. And they will fail and they will cause a domino effect. I don’t think we will have to wait a very long time so either you or I will soon have to eat our words.
Second, it is not even so much about capitalism being unsustainable, it is but that isn’t the most important issue in this collapse.
I posted this link up top and I post it here again so you don’t even have to look for it.
http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Tipping%20Point.pdf
Here’s an exerpt that I obviously hold to be true. Perhaps you can tell me why you think it isn’t so.
The full paper is 55 pages long but I think it is worth reading.
Furthermore, I posit that the current oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico and the yet to be revealed massive ecological devastation that it will cause is just the tip of one of the interconnected icebergs that will more and more signal the enthropic decay of our interconnected collapsing economy. It will cause feedback loops in the political system as well. Again since we all have front row seats to all of this it should be interetsing to watch. Hopefully I’m dead wrong and everything will be just fine and dandy in the world.
I’m certainly no expert but I have been seriously looking at the underlying economic issues related to resource depletion and how it is at the root of our economic problems for the past three years or so. There are some pretty smart people who have been studying this as well for at lot longer.
I’ll guess we’ll all find out soon enough. I’m not very optimistic that this will all turn out well.
I didn’t say what is being quoted first. – raven
Apologies raven (and to Rutee).
yea Matt Penfold, ExxonMobil contributes nothing to society by way of tax revenue, jobs, and profitable investment opportunities for average investors. Do you own a car?
Exxon 2008 profit 45.2 Billion (this means we didnt have to bail it out like AIG)
52 percent of Exxon is owned by mutual funds, index funds, and pension funds (this means working class Venezuelans and Nigerians could benefit financially from Exxon in their countries too)
2 million individuals own Exxon stock, I wish I bought some a while ago.
116.2 Billion paid in taxes in 2008 by Exxon ($36.5 billion; sales-based taxes, $34.5 billion; “all other” taxes, $45.2 billion) Doesn’t all that Tax revenue just make your heart just go pitter-patter?
In 2008, Exxon’s tax bill averaged about $318 million per day
Viva Petróleos de Venezuela!
Fred-the-Hun,
First, I have very close ties to more than a few parts of Europe, if you don’t yet see the collapse, I think you will, sooner rather than later.
Well I live there, head a project involving people in 5 European countries, and travel fairly extensively around it. It is not by any means “totally fucked”.
Once the bailouts of the economies of countries such as Greece by the Germans start to fail, you will see it. And they will fail and they will cause a domino effect.
How do you think you know they will fail? Crisis is often the spur for institutional innovation – as seems to be the case here.
I don’t think we will have to wait a very long time so either you or I will soon have to eat our words.
Give it a timescale. A month? A year? A decade?
I have been seriously looking at the underlying economic issues related to resource depletion and how it is at the root of our economic problems for the past three years or so.
And how is it? Looks to me like a consequence of the huge increase in inequality the rich have forced through over the past three decades, of which deregulation, and most of the population of rich countries up to their ears in personal debt, are just two facets. Of course “Peak oil” is inevitable, as with any finite resource. But that doesn’t mean the wells suddenly go dry: the decline in production will take decades – and as usually defined, it actually only means “Peak-high-quality-oil”. As a_ray notes, there’s lots of hydrocarbons down there.
Fred,
I consider The Oil Drum’s prognosis to be positively rosy. First, dependence on fossil fuels is not just fuel. We would have had massive famine 50 years ago if we hadn’t learned how to turn petruleum and water from deep aquifers into corn and soy beans.
However, such intensive farming has severely damaged productive potential of many soils–and once an aquifer goes dry, it will never recharge. It’s gone.
Oceans are acidifying. The planet is warming, and that further decreases crop yield. And lest you think peak oil will limit CO2 rise, someone will undoubtedly figure out how to use coal and tar sands and oil shale to run the economy. I estimate there is enough additional fossil fuels to bring atmospheric CO2 up to 1000 ppmv if we burn it all. That equates to 3.5 doublings, or over 10 degrees C on average. That would render many regions on Earth uninhabitable by humans.
Still, what choice is there but to try to work for the best possible outcome–some sort of soft landing with a sustainable economy…well, that and not having kids.
Fun facts for collapsitarians
Tax increases and spending cuts, coming to Washington real soon. Then again, DC is the town where the political statements that a new massive healthcare entitlement will decrease the deficit is considered truth.
Exxon Mobil’s dividends aren’t nearly as high as BP’s.
Errr….
mfd512,
Exx-Mob is one of the leading contributors to climate denialist campaigns. They are the leading reason why no action has been taken to reduce CO2 emissions, despite overwhelming evidence that climate change represents the most serious threat to the long-term viability of human civilization. This is despite the fact that their own scientists have been telling them for over a decade that the concern is real.
I will not under any circumstances stop at an Exx-Mob station.
Knockgoats @244,
Make you a deal, read the paper I linked and let me know what you think about the issues raised.
If you prefer contact me off line at fred underscore magyar at yahoo dot com
BTW my own sister who is director of communications for SAP in Germany thinks like you and doesn’t see collapse happening in Europe…
My uncle who is a PHD economist and works for the IMF doesn’t see it either… Neither do the vast majority of people.
Though it does seem that the physicists, chemists and biologists in my extended family do have a slightly better grasp of the laws of thermodynamics and how they relate to ecosytems and our interconnected economies.
I know that my views are definitely those of a very small minority and most people consider them to be on the fringe to say the least.
I think that quote pretty well sums up the why.
I also think we are going to see major paradigm change in the status quo and I don’t think it can happen until the current system collapses, this is not necessarily all bad. The bailouts I mentioned are just a desperate attempt to keep BAU going a bit longer…
So the next time your car radio gets ganked with no suspects, you’ll call for abolition of the police department? Great plan, mfd512. After that, let’s see how long you keep your house.
Earlier you denied that Somalia is an example of libertarianism in action. You’re half-right, for once: Somalia doesn’t resemble your libertarian fantasyland on the day of its creation. It’s a snapshot from about six months later.
Analogy fail. THe Fed is not functionally equal to Police department.
The police exist to catch and punish criminals.
The Fed exists to engineer financial outcomes that quasi-socialists prefer.
Yeah, it’s not like they get any sort of subsidies or corporate welfare or anything *rolls eyes*.
mfd512, If you want us to think you are anything other than a contrarian, stop using words like socialist, communist, left wing. Also, show historically that your ideas really work, and don’t result in monopolies and cartels.
That’s true. Nobody really listened, though. Is it not possible that the same is occuring in China?
I mean, if you keep careful track of chinese economists, which is entirely within the realm of probability, sorry. It just seems like it’s possible China’s growth is fake.
@Nerd of Redhead: You’re nicer then I am, allowing a troll a chance to prove they’re not trolls.
Yes, yes, Nerd. I know in your world there are no such things as socialists, communists, and the left wing. In your world there are only right wing troglodytes and shiny, happy, good hearted Keynesians who are off to save the world if we’d just quit asking pesky questions.
To be a right winger is really to suffer from a psychological defect, dont you think? You wouldnt be alone.
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/haidt08/haidt08_index.html
And if we can medicalize political opinion, we can diagnose right wingers. Then we’ve just got to treat them, eh? For the greater good?
mfd, sweetheart, why are you so angry? What, exactly, are you compensating for? It’s okay, you can tell us.
Would you like some cheese and whine to go with that persecution complex?
@256
MY EYES! I’ve rolled them so far into my skull that they’ve stuck! SWEET LORD THE PAIN.
You couldn’t be more wrong. But here’s the thing. People who just ask inane questions and make inane comments usually have nothing positive to offer to the argument. Why not do so. Say “this is what I believe, and this is the evidence (not ideology) to back it up.” Not hard to do. So, what evidence do you have that your ideas work in the real world? Or is reality rather harsh in rebuting your ideology? If so, why bother commenting?
Fred-the-Hun,
I’ll read the paper you linked to, but the psychologising you quote and the boilerplate references to “new paradigms” and Kuhn (whom I’ve read, BTW – have you?) do not impress: they are rhetoric, not rational argument.
Yes, yes, Nerd. I know in your world there are no such things as socialists, communists, and the left wing. – mfd512
Look fuckwit, of course there are socialists, communists and left-wingers – I belong to two of those categories. You, however, ludicrously overuse them to apply to anyone who doesn’t share your moronic delusions.
They laughed at Galileo… but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Reality fail. The Fed exists to prevent, or at least mitigate, bubbles and crashes (analogous to the deterrent effect of police patrols). That its mission has been subverted for 30 years by irresponsible greedheads and delusional ideologues does not change that.
Nor is it “socialist” in any way; if anything, it’s the polar opposite. If you knew the first fucking thing about left-wing economic or political theories, you’d realize that you’re making an ass of yourself. But since you don’t, here’s a clue: Old-line leftists looked upon market crashes with satisfaction, since they saw them as symptomatic of the shakiness of the capitalist system. Each wild swing and resulting hardship pushed capitalist societies, in theory, that much closer to turning socialist.
Regulating those highs and lows serves to preserve capitalism, as a throttle will keep an engine from overheating and burning up. Actual socialists denounced the Fed’s creation as a capitalist stratagem, and hoped it would fail. So congratulations: Every time you yammer on about how awful the Fed is, you’re making Lenin smile.
for reference, here’s the quote from Nerd
I’ve been ordered to stop using words. Language was always the primary battlefield for the Leftist, eh Nerd?
Knockgoats has the stones to admit he’s two of the three, why can’t you?
My argument is that government backed mortgage lending, based on political desires surrounding homeownership, leads to property bubbles and resulting misery. My evidence is my fucking tax assessment for my house, which today is 55% of what it was when I bought it in 2004. Yes im pissed. Shoot Fannie and Freddie in the head and lets be done with it already. And lets destroy the lever (the Fed interest rate) which will always be politicized no matter who’s in office. If it doesnt exist, it can’t be manipulated and banks will charge whatever they charge for lending.
Yes, bubbles may still exist in the absence of stupid homeownership promoting poltical fantasy, but at least tax-dollars won’t be funding them and won’t be used to bail out the folks who caused the problem in the first place.
Fred-the-Hun,
Here’s a quote from p.8 of the report (that’s as far as I’ve got):
“The self-organisation and biodiversity of life on earth is maintained by the flows of high entropy solar energy that irradiate our planet as it is transformed into low entropy heat radiating into space.”
1) What is wrong with the quote?
2) How much confidence can one have in the work of an organisation that makes such a crass error, and lets it remain in a publicly-available report for 2 months, especially when they pose as knowledgeable about thermodynamics?
So you’re pissed because you made a bad investment, because you failed to anticipate future market conditions correctly? Because nobody, certainly not the evil government, told you that real estate prices back in 2004 were inflated and eventually had to come down? That you were goaded into buying a house at that price because of political pressure on the mortgage industry? Seriously, for someone who claims to be a libertarian you seem to have a pretty warped understanding of personal responsibility.
Oh, so much fail. You’re mad about your property values and looking for a scapegoat. Easiest target: the big bad gummint! Waah! My house value has gone down because other people, probably far away, got federally-backed mortgages!
Yeah, right. Maybe you were just a dumb-ass and paid too much for your house to begin with. But don’t feel too bad; you’re not alone in dumbassery this time. Lots of people got suckered into paying more than they could afford for houses. And who encouraged them? The mortgage bankers and big finance firms, your shining heroes of financial responsibility. They figured to make a quick buck by jacking payments on variable-rate mortgages, repossessing houses, then reselling them for double profit. Trouble was, the mortgage bankers weren’t all that much smarter than you – and after doing that for a while, they found themselves stuck with more foreclosed houses than they could sell. When they tried to cut their losses, the housing bubble collapsed.
In short, they’d been doing just what regulatory institutions were supposed to prevent – but the regulators hadn’t been allowed to do their jobs, because every time they tried, yahoos like you could be counted on to wail “get government off business’ backs!”
And now you want it both ways. You want to deny any responsibility for gutting the institutions that should have prevented this, and you want to denounce regulators again for finally stepping in to stop the crash. You have the attention span of a gnat.
If you can concentrate for a few more seconds, try to grasp this: The Fed will indeed always be politicized to a degree – any human *political* institution will. But that means it should be watched to keep politicization to a minimum, not destroyed. Why? Because with or without the Fed, interest rates will still be manipulated. Only it’ll be done by the big banks, for their private benefit and no one else’s – certainly not yours.
Man, it’s sad how the powers that be are getting the teabaggers/libertarians to work against their own self-interest.
It’s quite ingenious actually: the big businesses screws people and gets them to unleash their anger onto the government to privatize and cut back regulations, which allows them to screw even more people…..
Fred-the-Hun,
Having read it, I’m unimpressed. It’s almost entirely handwaving, since it provides almost no attempt at quantification; does not show that peak oil has been reached or is near; makes unjustified claims about the closeness of the link between energy flow and complexity; is extremely naive about thermodynamics (there is no reason to believe that increasing complexity maximises entropy increase, for example); assumes that systems in which human decision-making is involved can be assumed to act like other complex adaptive systems (this is in my own area of expertise – and I assure you, they can’t); ignores changes in (e.g.) EROI that result from technical advance.
It’s also unbelievably callous. Here’s the final part:
Finally, this is a personal story. It will no doubt be a difficult time, and horrific for some. We are likely to see a major population collapse. But it will also be a time when many people will find a liberation in new social and personal roles; in the new friends and connections they make; in the skills and passtimes aquired; in their ability to contribute to others welfare; in their freedom from the subtle corrosion of positional consumption; and in the pleasures gained from contributing to the most crucial of shared endevours.
Each moment, each day begins anew, there is work to be done, enjoy it!
So the message is: most people are going to die horrible deaths – enjoy! Makes glibertarianism look compassionate.
Knockgoats has the stones to admit he’s two of the three, why can’t you? – mdf512
Because he isn’t, fuckwit. And it’s not an “admission”, shit-for-brains, simply a description of my political beliefs.
translation: Get used to subsistence farming, homespun fabrics, backbreaking labor and tiny communities, i.e. a return to the 14th century.
Whatever you may think about whether or not their conclusions are quantifiable, naive or unwarranted based on how you think the laws of thermodynamics do or do not apply to human based complex decision-making systems. I really don’t understand your point about the conclusions at which they arrive at as being callous?! Huh? They are just stating what they believe is reality. Perhaps it is a misdiagnosis. Perhaps you might get a second opinion because you don’t want to accept the diagnosis, that would probably be a very normal reaction. But to say they are callous, How so?
You say complex adaptive systems is in your area of expertise, in which case I’d like to leave you with George Mobus at: http://faculty.washington.edu/gmobus/
http://questioneverything.typepad.com/question_everything/biophysical-economics/
As`for quantifiable… how deep do you want to go with the data? I can provide plenty of links and people who will just provide you with facts and let you come to your own conclusion should you wish to go that route.
Sure, I disagree with your assesment but perhaps I’ve been looking at the data for a lot longer and I just recognize your reaction as simple denial of the facts.
If nothing else drop George a line he’s a pretty cool guy and has been looking at this a lot longer and more deeply than I.
I’ll leave you alone now, my intention is not to get people upset but to ask them to take a long hard look at what is happening. I do understand that this information can be a bit unsettling. Reality is what it is. Look at the data as many times as necessary and come to your own conclusion.
As for the message that most people are going to die horrible deaths – enjoy. I really don’t think that quite gets to the essence of the message. None of the people that I comunicate with about this topic are callous, most of them are highly intelligent, a lot of them are scientists from a very wide range of disciplines and the one thing I can tell you as that all of them care deeply, and are anything but callous.
TEA party = human meringue. Almost blindingly white, not much substance, and easily whipped into a froth.
Sure, it has to be F & F. Deregulation had nothing to do with it.
Please stop repeating such monumentally uninformed tripe. You are being a useful idiot for the same corporations that caused this mess.
Oh, by the way, I think you’re a moron. My evidence is
If you bought a house in 2004, you deserve everything that is coming to you. Kids could see the bubble. Dogs could see the bubble.
Teabaggers, the mutant bastard offspring of Oral Roberts and Ayn Rand!
show me where I say its anyone else’s responsibility but mine.
I continue to pay my debts, unlike AIG, GM, GS, etc etc etc
We all should have to.
As Maine goes, so goes the…….. never mind.
I like the sentiment and if your politics actually reflected it we’d get along just fine.
Look back at every post you’ve made. They’re one continuous whine about how everything is everybody else’s fault: It’s the Fed. It’s Fannie and Freddie. It’s “socialists,” incapable though you are of defining the term. No, only mfd512 and his performing Austrians are all-wise and pure. Have you regressed so far that you’ve become unable to read your own drivel?
here’s your answer
Those quotes are pulled from an NYTimes article From the Sunday, 12/21/08:
White House Philosophy Stoked Mortgage Bonfire
By JO BECKER, SHERYL GAY STOLBERG and STEPHEN LABATON
The NYTimes permits itself to discuss the minority lending aspect of this story because ultimately it sullies GWB’s policies. Fair enough. Id just like the policies that got us here to end.
This is what I get for being away from the computer for most of the day. A real, live looneytarian shows up to display his ignorance about basic economics, the housing bubble, and the role of the Fed. And I wasn’t here to laugh at him and give him further chances to show how, like most looneytarians, he’s an economic illiterate.
But it’s getting late and I’m tired. I’ll look at some of the other threads and then go to bed.
AE,
You’ve lost me. If all these entities I named did not have the ability to manipulate the market, for good or ill, then WTF are we talking about?
Of course my housing mortgage contract is my responsibility, but no, Im not personally responsible for the state of the housing market.
You see the difference now?
curious tentacle @ #274:
That was brilliant. Can I borrow it?
Quote from Paul Krugman, Hari Seldon acolyte, Nobel prize winner, and NYTimes economic blatherer.
No doubt the man meant well, he always does. No shortage of goodness in his heart. Its his lack of humility that sticks in my craw.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/opinion/dubya-s-double-dip.html?scp=4&sq=krugman%20mcculley%20bubble&st=cse&pagewanted=print
Way too late. I’ve already stolen it.
BS
No, if you are so brilliant in economics as to troll this thread the way you have, you should have seen it coming, and taken responsibility for your bad decision, and not complained about it like a real man.
Nerd,
I like it when your beak and claws poke through the mask. You’re a hardass, alas if you’d only let yourself vote that way.
If you knew you that, why the stuff did you buy the house? take some responsibility for your hopeful stupid actions!
heck, as a 15 year-old in Australia, i can see our’s right now and i could see America’s 5 years ago. pretty stupid to buy a house at the height of a boom don’t you think?
Getting way back to original Maine GOP platform’s text, I note with amusement that this part:
is poorly phrased, and could be taken to mean that the GOP is on the side of the jihadis.
Carry on.
Id just like the policies that got us here to end. -mdf512
Well I agree with you: I’d like the relentless increase in inequality which forced millions of people to run up huge personal debts, the deregulation allowing banks to create opaque “financial instruments” such as CDOs and CDSs, and the vast bonuses top bankers got for doing so, to end.
My argument is that government backed mortgage lending, based on political desires surrounding homeownership, – mfd512
Glibertarian is closet racist shock!
The proportion of mortgage lending that went to ethnic minorities and the poor is tiny: most of it was rich white arseholes like you, trading up or buying second properties. I’m really, really pleased you got burned, and I hope you go bankrupt.
Fred-the-Hun
Whatever you may think about whether or not their conclusions are quantifiable, naive or unwarranted based on how you think the laws of thermodynamics do or do not apply to human based complex decision-making systems.
This is total bilge. Of course such systems obey the laws of thermodynamics, but these laws do not imply that a falling oil supply (or even a total reduction in energy throughput) will cause the collapse of such a system. The claim that it does is as ignorant (and indeed, very close to) the creationist claim that evolution violates the second law.
A piece of idiocy from George Mobus:
The key, however, remains the flow of the right kinds and amounts of energy through the system. Solar influx through the Earth’s atmosphere and hydrosphere power a large majority of organizing work on the surface of the planet, with contributions from geothermal and tidal forces. And the Earth went from a hot ball with poisonous gasses swirling around it to the blue green dot that graced the back of the Last Whole Earth Catalog.
Right, so why didn’t this happen on Venus, which gets a larger energy influx? Whether a large or increasing energy influx generates increased complexity in a system depends on the detailed structure and functioning of that system. Similarly, whether a reduction of energy influx on a particular scale and timescale will force a reduction in complexity depends on the detailed structure and functioning of the system.
Perhaps you might get a second opinion because you don’t want to accept the diagnosis, that would probably be a very normal reaction.
Condescending arsehole.
I really don’t understand your point about the conclusions at which they arrive at as being callous?!
I didn’t say their conclusions were callous. I quoted the final two paragraphs, and summed them up as:
“most people are going to die horrible deaths – enjoy!”
If that’s not callous, what would be?
Keep on hoping sweetie, fortunately I was taught high future time orientation, and can afford the payments.
Do you really hope that, though? I dont think you do, it doesnt fit with your socialist outlook. If I were to bankrupt, wouldnt that bring down your property prices too, thereby punishing the people who did the right thing.
On the bright side, in 2004 I was just another hapless Democrat. Comes the bubble burst and then I started reading.
BTW, Fred the Hun, if a reduction in energy throughput always causes complex system collapse, why doesn’t everyone who reduces their calorific intake immediately die?
Do you really hope that, though? I dont think you do, it doesnt fit with your socialist outlook. If I were to bankrupt, wouldnt that bring down your property prices too, thereby punishing the people who did the right thing.
What a moron you are. Reducing property prices would be a good thing, as very many people cannot afford to buy without going into unsustainable debt, or at all. I’m quite willing to see the price of my property reduced if what causes the reduction also increases the general good.
On the bright side, in 2004 I was just another hapless Democrat. Comes the bubble burst and then I started reading.
Pity you didn’t try thinking as well.
Yawn, the liberturd is still being an idjit. But they all are. Can’t see their morally bankrupt ideology through the lies and unevidenced hopes propping it up. But we see through the lies, the false hopes, and find the bankrupt philosophy hiding there. That doesn’t make us socialists, just realists.
May I, knockgoats, infer two things from this statement
1) you do not support bailing out homeowners on the brink of bankruptcy (dont worry, I wouldnt accept it. Too proud)
2) you do not support an inflationary financial system which encourages rising home prices, thus speculation and ATM like equity borrowing to spur more economic activity
and
C) ending the home interest tax deduction (as a socialist, how can you be for a transfer of wealth from poor to the middle class?)
Anecdotally, my neighbor was a nice woman. I say was, she was foreclosed upon. Prices then fell to the point that a poorer man with what appears to be Meth-mouth bought it. Is the Good now greater? He’s white, BTW, Im not sure if that matters in your moral calculus.
It’d be an interesting homeownership paradigm where property prices fell over time. Deflation is the natural state of things and Im sympathetic to the argument. Id just like to have a heads up before the paradigm shift next time.
Guys, mdf is A TROLL. I kinda hoped folks would wait for an actual libertarian to walk in before doing this.
mdf512,
I’m British, so I don’t know the US housing finance system in any detail, which I would have to do before deciding whether your (1) and (C) would be net benefits. In the UK, I certainly oppose tax relief on mortgage interest (which we don’t have); and it’s only rich scumbags like you I want to see going bankrupt. (BTW, it’s 3 that comes after 2 – not that I’m surprised at your complete innumeracy.) Deflation can of course be as bad as hyperinflation; experience suggests that inflation rates of up to about 3% do no harm. The problem has been that house price inflation has been treated as a good thing and assumed to be able to continue for ever, because it made property owners feel they were getting richer and would go on doing so, and hence encouraged them to over-borrow. Since I oppose capitalism, however, the answer to (2) is that I support neither the current system, nor your loony alternative: the biggest banks should be in public ownership, but as independent trusts, not under direct government control; smaller banks should be strictly supervised; the government should set interest rates, and answer to the electorate for the consequences – it’s called d-e-m-o-c-r-a-c-y – you may have heard of it. The idea that the economy has a “natural” state is a piece of breathtakingly crass stupidity, typical of glibertarianism.
Knockgoats,
It’s funny… you and I can join forces to argue against various forms of idiocy (Islamophobia, authoritarianism, anti-immigrant nuttery and the like) and I almost think that we’re on the same page… but then you come out with bizarre extreme stuff like this. :-/
(Don’t get me wrong. I don’t support mfd512’s utopian plans for the economy either. But I’m not enough of an expert in banking and finance to propose my own alternative.)
Fred the Hun,
You asked me to spell out ideas for avoiding civilisational collapse; I haven’t forgotten, but this will have to wait until I have a bit more time – possibly the weekend, possibly next week.
I find this a really bizarre idea. What makes you think that the electorate are actually qualified to judge whether a given manipulation of interest rates is a good or a bad idea?
At the risk of sounding arrogant, I’m a little brighter and more educated than the average voter. Nonetheless, I have not the first clue about how interest rates should be manipulated, and have only very vague ideas about the relationship between interest rates and other economic phenomena. I am, in short, completely unqualified to make any sort of decision about interest rates. So are the vast majority of my compatriots.
Most people, when deciding how to vote, do not conduct a rational economic analysis of the incumbent government’s record on setting interest rates. Rather, most people vote according to tribal loyalties, family pressure, propaganda in the tabloid press, or which party’s leader looks best in TV debates.
Having direct democratic control over monetary policy seems to me no more sensible than having direct democratic control over the science curriculum in schools (cf the Texas State Board of Education, for how the latter turns out). I find your persistent faith in the wisdom of the voters, in the teeth of all the evidence as to how voters actually make decisions, truly bizarre.
Won’t you be embarrassed if civilization collapses THIS WEEKEND!!
Won’t you be embarrassed if civilization collapses THIS WEEKEND!!
:D
I find this a really bizarre idea. What makes you think that the electorate are actually qualified to judge whether a given manipulation of interest rates is a good or a bad idea? – Walton
I said answer for the consequences Walton – (so in practice, for their management of the economy as a whole). This is how it worked in the UK until Gordon Brown handed over the decision to the Bank of England’s monetary policy committee. Admittedly, that has prevented any financial crisis occurring since he did so…
Oh, wait…
BTW Walton,
You must admit that having the big banks in private hands and weakly regulated has proved disastrous – and of course they have followed the true motto of capitalism: privatise the profits, socialise the losses.
Yes, but I don’t think the average voter is qualified to judge whether, and to what extent, any given economic crisis is ascribable to any particular government policy. I’m certainly not qualified to determine with any certainty how much of the current British economic situation is the fault of Gordon Brown, and how much of it is the consequence of global factors that are far outside any government’s control; nor are most of my fellow voters capable of making this kind of determination (though many of them believe themselves to be, thanks to Dunning-Kruger effect). So it has to be said that “democratic accountability” is largely a red herring when it comes to monetary policy.
Knockgoats, you’ve contradicted yourself a bit.
You said you’d like to see housing prices fall.
You said 3% inflation seems harmless.
Dunno about the UK, but in America you cannot save your way to retirement. You have to speculate your way. Not Goldman Sachs style, but you still need to make about 6% on your money over the course of a lifetime. It was not ever thus. I dont have the years at hand, but in the late 1800’s the purchasing power of the dollar actually increased over the course of about 20 years.
3% inflation is not harmless? It is a tax on the poor especially, the moneychangers and Wall street professionals know how to keep ahead of it, the proles not so much. Oh, and sometimes the economy slips the reigns from our selfless managers and we get a bit more than 3%.
Deflation is not the natural state of things? A new version of the same computer I bought 7 years ago is a hell of a lot cheaper. Productivity increases = lower prices. yes, Housing is a bit different, but Id argue there are more downward pressures on housing prices than upwards (upkeep, aging of amenities and lots of cheap land in U.S. vs desirability of a particular location).
The Feds job is to provide a stable currency. Since its creation, the value of the dollar has lost something like 92%. .80 cents in 1913 buys you 20$ today. This is failure. And the consequences hurt the less wealthy more than anyone. See inflation above.
The consequences of this failed push for home ownership hurt the less wealthy disproportionately too. Look at the states with the highest default rates, CA, FL, NV, AZ. They are also the 4 states with the highest immigration rates. The gov. of both Dems and Repubs, encouraged this state of affairs and it went down in flames. Yes, a lot of moneyed whiteys started flipping houses too, shame on them. But at the end of it, most went back to their primary residence. Not so for most of our new Americans.
The utopians caused this.
Yawn, Mfd512 is just another idjit liberturd troll, heavy on ideology and wishful thinking, short on evidence. Just another loser who doesn’t understand economics, and places the blame for his problems everywhere but where they belong. On himself.
Not sure what evidence you’re calling for, anklebiter, but here’s some for the NV, AZ, CA, Fl claim.
http://www.realtytrac.com/ContentManagement/pressrelease.aspx?ChannelID=9&ItemID=5163
and here’s an inflation calculator which tells me $0.80 in 1914 had about the same buying power as $17.28 in 2010.
Annual inflation over this period was about 3.25%.
so I was off a bit.
http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm
mfd512,
My but you do subscribe to the victimhood school of economics, don’t you. Everything would be fine if you didn’t have to pay taxes or a mortgage, right?
Sorry, sunshine, but life doesn’t work that way. An inflation rate of 3.25% is quite manageable. A return on investment of 5-6% is quite doable with a conservative strategy–big endowments at Harvard, Yale, etc. have grown quite fat making such assumptions. A moderate inflation rate actually encourages economic activity. A 3% deflation rate? Big problem. It can cause economic activity to come to a screeching halt as people wait for prices to fall further. Contrary to your assumption, deflation is not the natural state of things. Increased productivity does not necessarily translate to decreased prices, but more often to increased wages. Semiconductors and electronics have benefitted from Moore’s Law–initially a technical recipe for scaling transistors, now a recipe for economic survival of semiconductor fabs. This is not a natural state of affairs because productivity does not usually increase exponentially in any sustained manner.
Oh, and mfd512, if you like 3.25% inflation, you gonna love what’s coming down the pike! You’ve got a sovereign debt crisis, Peak Oil, Climate change, obscene concentration of wealth (10% of global wealth in the hands of the richest 1000 families). What you are seeing isn’t about Democrats or Republicans. It’s about governments that are too weak to say no to a citizenry that has become too stupid, fat, lazy and corrupt to govern itself. The 20th century sowed the wind. We’ll see what the 21st reaps.
when on earth did I say or imply this? I don’t mind paying a mortgage + interest at all…I mind paying interest on a devaluing asset when the paradigm for the previous 3/4 century was said asset would increase in value. I didnt make those rules but I attempted to play by them, then they switched. I know you dont’ care much for me, but Im not the only one hurt by this. I didnt lose my house.
Dont mind paying taxes either. Sure, I wish they were lower, but I wish more America were actually forced to pay the actual amount of taxes that we spend on government services every year. One way to do this would be to pin the dollar to something or a basket of somethings of actual value… In America we’re supposed to estimate the federal budget and then tax accordingly. Going from memory but I think we’ve accomplished this 4 times in the last 30 years. Join me in supporting a balanced budget amendment?
3.25% aint terrible no. And while we’ve had a good run this past century, the history of government finance tells me its not always going to be controllable. Regardless it is an environment that encourages speculation and discourages savings. Take it from someone who knows, working poor people are skeptical of investment and prefer to save and pay cash for things when they can. Why support a financial environment that punishes savers? Isnt’ that what we’re supposed to be doing, Ants not Grasshoppers right? The Grasshoppers caused this recent blow-up, why not incentivize the ants?
Gold today is at 1240$ an ounce and America has recently been experiencing deflationary conditions…the dollar is strengthening against other currencies. As you say, our bill has not yet come due, but it will. Time to save for it.
oh, Dilbert forgot.
You mentioned Harvard and its endowment. Heh heh. Google Larry Summers, Prez Obama’s #1 financial soothsayer. See how well he did with Harvards endowment.
Dilbert I like you too much I pulled it up for ya
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/11/29/harvard_ignored_warnings_about_investments/
money quotes
result?
since I did the research Dilbert, you do the math. tell me when the Harvard endowment returns start beating inflation again.
Larry Summers, he of no self-doubt, has now been promoted to higher responsibilities.
mfd512, Golly Ned, do you mean that endowments should be subject to the laws of economics, too? Oh noes!
Look, genius, investment is not day trading. Day trading is gambling–just like Vegas, but with worse odds. You invest money you aren’t going to need for 15 years or so. You balance your fricking portfolio so you buy low and sell high. You discipline yourself so you don’t buy high and sell low.
Long term, stocks have yielded ~10-11% per year–but that comes in +30% years and -10% years. When the market falls, you’re gonna take a bath. It’s all funny money until you need it.
Damn, I’d hate to be your investment manager!
Im an Ant, Id bore you to tears.
Larry Summers could use some advice though.
Ah, the libertarian among insects, proud in its solitary struggle against all hardships, never submitting to the yoke of collectivism.
mfd512 says, “Im an Ant, Id bore you to tears.”
No, I’d put you as more of a louse or a flea. But yes, you do bore me to tears.
So it has to be said that “democratic accountability” is largely a red herring when it comes to monetary policy. – Walton
You can of course say the same of anything else. So the logic of your position is a rejection of democracy. My view is, that all important decisions about how society and the economy are run should be subject to democratic accountability. Of course democratically made decisions are not always right, but without it, the decision-makers have no incentive to make decisions in any but their own interests.
You said you’d like to see housing prices fall.
You said 3% inflation seems harmless.
No contradiction, dumbo. House prices are absurdly high now: they need to fall relative to other prices.
Dunno about the UK, but in America you cannot save your way to retirement.
Until recently you could, and some lucky people, including me, still have decent final-salary pensions, but arseholes with views like yours are doing their best to destroy them, and make everyone depend on the vagaries of share prices at the point they happen to retire – shifting risk from businesses and the public purse to individuals. Most of the US population have been thoroughly shafted by rich right-wing shits over the past few decades, forcing them into this position, and like you, are too stupid to realise it.
W.r.t. deflation, your example of computers is ludicrous: this is a specific area where technology has advanced and volume of manufacture has soared. In many other areas, increasing demand and limited supply, and/or various forms of collusion have led to inflation – there is no reason to say one is more “natural” than the other. This is just the pathetic glibertarian delusion that markets are a “natural” phenomenon which just need to be left alone: all markets are embedded within institutional systems which are maintained or modified by socio-political interactions.
yup, defined benefit pension plans are going going gone in America, and taking state governments like California and New York with them. These states, BTW, have the highest rates of taxation in America. Perhaps a meaningful correlation?