The godless must have some fans in the comic book world. In an issue of The List: Wolverine, the heroes Fantomex (a genetically engineered supersoldier) and Captain Marvel are faced with an army of zombie-like creatures, people who have been infected with an evil virus that can only take over your mind if you believe in some sort of god. So they swing into action, safe from the infection, because neither one believes in gods.
Nice. Well, except that I do think atheists will save the world…but not by putting on a mask and drawing a pair of pistols. That’s just nuts.
Thank goodness (since God has nothing to do with it) that I’m immune to the god-believer virus.
So I guess these sniffles I have today are from some other virus. Hallelujah!
WANT!
Uh-oh. I got all dressed up in my silver jumpsuit, donned my pistols and mask… then I went back to check the instructions for saving the world and PZ said no mask and no pistols (“that’s just nuts”). I guess I’ll have to save the world using just my silver jumpsuit.
Too bad they live in a world that is filled to the rafters with gods.
If you didn’t turn into a zombie then obviously it’s another virus, possibly WinDefender or Mirar Toolbar.
Zeno #1
If you didn’t turn into a zombie you’re obviously infected with another virus, possibly WinDefender or ISTBar.Slotch.
Something weird is going on. I wrote post #5 and submitted it. I then went to YouTube, looked for a song, and started playing it. I returned here and saw my post wasn’t posted. I refreshed the page and still no post. So I rewrote the post and submitted it. Almost immediately posts #5 and #6 appeared.
SB softwear strikes again.
*sigh* Like my fantasy life isn’t rich enough already…
Whew… Captain Marvel’s design sure changed a lot… For the better IMO.
I think that the virus has already been released.
Feynmaniac at #3: You mean you want something in your brain that will prevent you from believing in something in spite of any evidence that might come your way?
I thought you all thought that was what “faith” was.
(PS: do any of you really refuse to believe in “anything greater than yourselves”?)
Your puny faith is no match for my skepticism!
They have an equation that disproves God? What did they do? Turn the Cumming’s equation upside down?
Yay, this made me laugh out loud when I read it last night and my first thought was that I had to email that page to PZ. Which I did. Finally, the demented sums of money I’ve spent on comics over the years have paid off.
Join the Kninja Knitters. They don’t need pistols to put the hurt on the baddies…
Too True, Naked Bunny @4.
I’ve always thought Marvel-universe religion and science should be vastly different than our own.
Hercules, Thor, Ares, and many others roam the Earth. Wouldn’t this make the conspicuous absence of Jesus all the more disconcerting for the believer?
Then again, the chimeric nature of many mutations in the Marvel universe (Beast displaying feline characteristics, Angel displaying avian characteristics) would mean it is a world in which either evolution works very differently (significant lateral gene transfer amongst mammals), or it is a world where life is the product of intelligent design.
Of course, in the Marvel universe there is no lack of specifically-identified potential designers: The Celestials, The Inhumans, The High Evolutionary, older civilizations such as the Kree and Shi’ar, etc.
This is hardly the kind of atmosphere that would encourage the “I dunno, therefore Jesus” handwaving of this world’s Discovery Institute.
Oh, and on the next page after the one above there’s this excellent exchange:
Fantomex: “Weapon XVI is spreading exponentially. If it escapes the confines of this dome, in a few hours we could have an entire planet of brain-dead religious freaks.”
Captain Marvel:”…”
Fantomex:”Stop it. I know what you’re going to say.”
Joe Quesada (editor-in-chief of Marvel) sort of answered that exact question a couple of days ago (yay for coincidences) here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=24028
About halfway down the page by the Spider-man cover.
And yes, I’m feeling geekier than usual today…
Michael #11
There’s lots of stuff greater than myself. There’s my family, my community, the rest of humanity, the biosphere, the Earth, the solar system, the Orion spur of the Sagittarius Arm (wherein lies our solar system), the Milky Way Galaxy, the Local Galactic Group, the Virgo Supercluster, and the universe, just to name a few.
Of course you’re asking “do you refuse to believe in gawd?” I’ll believe in gawd, aka The Big Guy In The Sky, Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, Odin, Jebus, Huitzilopochtli, and any number of other deities invented by humans as soon as evidence for The Big Guy In The Sky is presented. You got any evidence?
What bothers me about this is the fact it reeks of author-surrogacy. The line about the Kree no-God equation especially made my stomach turn.
You can do a story about the nonexistence of God without making it painful and heavyhanded like this.
I love the quote about the Kree equation — they learn it “about the same time we learn not to soil ourselves with excrement”.
Only if it makes me a better technological-human hybrid atheist superhero. If not, then it’s just not worth it. Also, if those nanites alter my brain to have a vi*gra gland.
(Hmmm, the first time around my comment was held in moderation. I should have suspected that the word vi*gra would do that. If only I had brain nanites….)
“You can do a story about the nonexistence of God without making it painful and heavyhanded like this.”
Theists are often silly. So are comic books.
Rt
Does anyone know what issue this is? I think Marvel is about to get some of my business!
Donning a mask and wielding pistols is crazy! Everyone knows you need shotguns for zombies. Pistols will just make them angrier!
I don’t know who the white-suited ninja-guy is, but Captain Marvel’s a reasonably big player in the Marvel universe (at least he was before he died, what happened with that, anyway?) I don’t read comics much myself but I have trouble accepting that he’s never come across Thor at any point in his decades-long publishing history. He may not revere gods in a religious manner, but he has to accept that they exist. One of them is a perennial member of the Avengers, after all.
Naked Bunny @4
But people don’t shouldn’t around believing in them — it’ll give them ideas. </Granny Weatherwax>
(Actually, oddly enough I can see ‘acknowledging the gods’ existence without putting any faith in them being anything more than a type of very powerful supers/magic users/etc.’ working as a proxy for non-theism in a superhero or speculative-fiction setting. Maybe it’s me having grown up in a monotheist culture, but a lot of religious belief is structured in that God/the gods listen to prayers, take a personal hand in the afterlife, and generally give a shit about humanity. If the God of Left-handed Lumberjacks lives in the woods behind your house, it’s easy to acknowledge such a creature exists, but one still has to take it on faith that it gives a damn about you.)
Actually, this makes me wonder how many comic book characters are non-theists. I’m more of a manga person myself, but the only one who comes to mind are the main characters of Fullmetal Alchemist — hell, the first storyline is of the main heroes dealing with a conman who set himself up as high priest of a made up religion so he could have a village of fanatics to take on the government. (Interesting example, in that the setting country seems to be majority-non-theist*, and many of the villains are non-theists, but so are many of the heroes. Just a fact of the setting.)
* With a minority to the east of monotheists that got decimated by a war. Word of Series Creator was that they were inspired by the Ainu, but they give off a Middle Eastern vibe to most Western readers.
@ #20: “You can do a story about the nonexistence of God without making it painful and heavyhanded like this.”
Pish. This is nothing – compared to a lot of other comic book material, this little strip is atheism with puppies and flowers. Preacher, on the other hand, is like being whacked over the head with a giant steel beam: an entire series about how Gawd is an egotistical bastard with ultimate cosmic power who allows suffering because he wants people to LOVE him even though he lets bad things happen in the world – and therefore needs to die. A friend lent me all the graphic novels last year and I read them in a weekend. Genius.
What’s impressive is that a strip like this even showed up in a Marvel superhero comic. I’d think that Marvel would be twitchy about offending any believers with that. I think I may need to go back and give the series a try.
@#18 – Thanks for posting that link! Joe’s explanation for why so many mythological gods show up in comics while Jesus remains absent makes a lot of sense from a storytelling viewpoint.
It’s probably because they are corporeal beings and not a collection of unsubstantiated assertions that randomly generate information out of nothing.
In other words, they are like the Asgard in Stargate to him.
There is actually a list at adherents.com about the religious beliefs of comic book heroes.
http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/comic_book_religion.html
Religion has been at the forefront of some comic books lately. The whole ‘Secret Invasion’ company-wide theme Marvel had last year centered around a sect of “born-again” Skrulls, who were following a prophecy that Earth was their promised land.
You’re right. Only the pistols are necessary.
If you look at Marvel comics as popular culture, it could be that popular culture is getting sick of toxic religion.
I see that in a lot of popular books and short stories lately too.
Between the fundie xian wingnuts and Dominionists, the Bush failures, and watching Moslems kill each other by the hundreds of thousands, toxic religion has given itself an image problem and a bad name.
…but not by putting on a mask and drawing a pair of pistols.
A single cyberpistol should suffice.
JSW @ # 26: … I have trouble accepting that he’s never come across Thor …
Somewhere along the line, in a book I missed, apparently it was revealed that Thor is just another secular superhero – with severe mental health problems, including hallucinations of Asgard & all the rest.
Dr. Stephen Strange, we must assume, has been put in a tight jacket in a softwalled room, lithiumed (not Thor-azined!) to the gills.
Am not sure how Joe Quesada rationalizes his approach to mythology regarding Marvel’s Son of Satan series (long since sentenced to the underworld)…
Oddly enough, when I wear my silver jumpsuit and wave my pistol about, no one calls me nuts. To my face.
Got to go – there is a Jeebus Zombie at the door.
foole @ #24
It’s this one, a one-shot: http://marvel.com/catalog/?id=14108
Though it should be pointed out that the bits about religion aren’t the main focus of the book.
‘What did they do? Turn the Cumming’s equation upside down?’
Cumming forgot to carry the 7.
Most faith is down to sloppy arithmetic.
But is it? They might call themselves gods, but none of them actually fit the operational definition of a god. They’re not omnipotent, not omniscient, and certainly not benevolent. Sure they’re superhuman, but then again, so is pretty much every other character that actually has a name.
It also reminds me of the “Godman” comic. (“Godman raises an eyebrow. The beetle is no more!)
Is there a correlation between “Weapon XVI” and “Pope Benedict XVI,” or am I reading too much into this?
I suppose it doesn’t really matter for anything that can be released into and picked up from the bloodstream, but… the brain isn’t the place where you’d like a viagra gland to be.
(HTML trick to make the V word appear.)
NeilB48239
It’s a coincidence.
The ‘Weapon’ naming was instituted before Ratzinger’s prominence.
Pfft. Jesus clearly exists in the Marvel Universe, as seen here.
Thomas Winwood @#20:
Context is missing in these few panels. The Kree, Captain Marvel’s alien species, consider themselves very pragmatic and logical, but are more arrogant than anything else.
Regular fans would know that this incarnation of C.M. is being a perfect Kree. It doesn’t make him RIGHT. “Heavyhanded” is a good description of them.
Or just copy and paste it because I clearly don’t know what I’m doing.
http://litio.livejournal.com/677852.html
It’s no longer here, and Google doesn’t find the filename elsewhere :.-(
Eh? She/It/He is overly fond of beetles. I can’t imagine him/her/it eyebrowing a beetle. Eyeballing, yeah, sure, that’s real high up on its/his/her list of many kinks.
Ha! My Google-fu is strong !
The entire series is linked to from here:
http://www.fecundity.com/pmagnus/godman.html
No, no !! The Purple Beetle, a nefarious scientist who becomes a masked human supervillain !!
And, what the hell, let’s embed it:
Hmmmm. Would Richard Dawkins be in danger because he’s only a 5 out of 6 on the atheism scale? How exactly does this virus work?
I recently read Marvel’s ‘Secret Invasion’, the plot of which involves Alien Religious Fanatics invading the Earth covertly, and thought the theme seemed quite anti-theistic. Also Richard Dawkins had a cameo! http://twitpic.com/tdpl3
Becca @27
If we’re adding in anime, there’s Setsuna F. Seiei from Gundam 00. His backstory is that he was a child soldier in the Middle East who was manipulated into fighting a a holy war by a warmonger playing at being prophet. The series starts with a flashback where as a kid he’s realizing that “God doesn’t exist in this world”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSO_r_muwxk
Are you sure? This bit:
sounds more like a stereotype of Atheists held by the religious.
Michelle R: “Captain Marvel’s design sure changed a lot”
This is a completely different Captain Marvel than before. Darker and Edgier too!
Jason Failes: “Hercules, Thor, Ares, and many others roam the Earth. Wouldn’t this make the conspicuous absence of Jesus all the more disconcerting for the believer?”
If I remember correctly, characters have argued that the fact that those “Gods” are known to exist, but are limited, fallible beings, proves they’re not real “gods, but merely sufficiently advanced aliens. Therefore, Jesus!
Of course, the real irony here is that Kree society is basically a North Korea-ish, Cult of Personality driven totalitarian state, with worship of the Supreme Intelligence being every bit as dogmatic and irrational as any other religion.
Just to clarify both DC and Marvel have characters named Captain Marvel. The original character of that name was created by Fawcett Comics in 1939 and later acquired by DC. He’s the alter ego of Billy Batson, who becomes Captain Marvel by uttering the magical phrase “Shazam!” In fact since DC revived the character in ’72 his and the adventures of the other “Marvel Family” have been marketed as Shazam! since Marvel owns the Captain Marvel name.
The Marvel version was originally the Kree agent Captain Mar-Vell, whose name of course got mangled by Earthers into Captain Marvel. The name has been used by several other characters over the years, including Monica Rambeau, who was a member of the Avengers in the ’80s. The current user of the name is a Kree named Nor-Varr, the guy in the panel above.
The Thor Pierce Butler mentioned in his post is not the Thor of regular Marvel Comics. He’s a part of Marvel’s Ultimate Universe line, and for a good while was presented as possibly being just a nut with powers who thought he was a god, although it was later confirmed he was a god. The Thor of the mainstream Marvel Universe, often refered to these days as the 616 universe, was never treated by the comics as anything but the Norse god of thunder.
As should be obvious from this post modern superhero comic book continuity is a big mess. That was part of the reason Marvel came up with their Ultimate Universe line, to offer new versions of their characters that you didn’t need a degree in comic book history to understand. Unfortunately it didn’t quite work.
Although he’s from DC, not Marvel, Mr. Terrific (Michael Holt, the badass inventor one in the comics now) is normally written as an atheist–although some writers like to use him for “redemption” stories that end with him in church or whatever.
ANYWAY…he had an interesting discussion in an old issue of Justice Society of America (I swear I’ve slept with a woman) where he discussed why, even though his wife died in a car crash and he would desperately want to see her again, he just couldn’t believe in heaven. This is interesting, because in DC, they DO have angels and demons and all that–Zauriel, Etrigan, the Spectre, etc. The JSA itself has visited the afterlife.
Terrific’s point was that considering there’s so much stuff in the DC universe that isn’t what it seems, how do we know that (I’m paraphrasing) those angels aren’t mutants from the future, or the Spectre isn’t just some really powerful wizard with identity issues? How do you tell the difference between “really powerful compared to humans” and “divine”? Furthermore, if they really are angels and spirits, why do they come from mutually exclusive pantheons and mythologies? The implication he explores is kind of a Clarke’s Law type thing that all these magicians and wizards are just using science we (or they) haven’t figured out yet.
The DC comics hero “Mister Terrific” has also ‘come out’ as an atheist. His powers include being undetectable by any electronics and super-intelligence said to be greater than that of Batman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Terrific_%28comics%29
Funnily, in the Marvel Universe all the “gods” and abstract concept (Death, Eternity etc)have a naturalistic origin. Science rules (or at least gets respect) in Marvel…more or less lol
Marvel comics actually helped plant the seeds of questioning in my head when I was a kid and teenager.
THIS is the Captain Marvel I grew up with:
Much better uniform (and hairstyle).
I also used to own a copy of the very first appearance of Wolverine EVER in Marvel history. He appeared (wearing a crazy bat-eared yellow uniform) in an issue of The Incredible Hulk (guest-starring The Wendigo, a Yeti-type creature).
Ahhhh… I wonder what ever happened to it (Mom).
I prefer the old Captain Marvel. I like my beers cold, my homosexuals flaming and my superheroes hokey as hell.
Shazam!
There is a god!
I remember reading about a new comic series Warren Ellis is writing. Searching for the title on Wikipedia turns up only a redirection to Ellis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergod
Another redirection is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Jesus
Soon all y’all scepticians will have proof of His Devine Thereness.
Actually, there is a comic book omnipotent god/superhero. His name is Doctor Manhattan. :)
This Captain Marvel was originally Marvel Boy. His character is that of arrogance, so what he says is no surprise. He only recently got the name Captain Marvel, because he was filling the slot of “Captain Marvel” on the bad guys version of the Avengers.
You can’t bring back the old Captain Marvel, because he had a very important death. It wasn’t in battle, but of cancer. It wasn’t something normally seen in comic books and to bring him back would be to cheapen that.
Also, Fantomex is super-French, and we know it’s a very secular country.
Wow . . . and I thought I was a geek.
I bow before such an intense concentration of geekiness.
Who would have thought there would be such a strong connection between atheism and fictional people in really ill-considered spandex outfits? I must confess that if I were somehow gifted with superhuman powers I would make sure that somewhere on my priority list was an entry entitled ‘Get Better Wardrobe.’ Right after the entry entitled ‘Defeat Pope Palpatine’. I wonder how you would work a croco-duck tie into a superhero outfit?
Saving ‘open minded’ damsels in distress would make the list too, of course.
Sadly, Reed Richards is shoe-horned into being a believer, in a recent issue that I can’t remember which. He is by far the smartest scientist on the planet, and finds a naturalistic explanation for everything. This is a guy who refuses to believe in magic, because he believes it’s simply a science we haven’t fully explained yet. Then he comes out with something along the lines of “you gotta believe in something” when explaining his views to his son. THAT was a clear author imposition, that doesn’t fit the character.
Fantomex is prone to self-aggrandizing and lying about his powers, so the bit about nanites may have just been bullshit. Then again, his powers are really weird, so maybe it was true… Either way the line says more about him than it does about atheists in general.
The idea of religion as a mind virus was also used by Alastair Reynolds in his book “Absolution Gap”. It’s a meme that seems to be used a fair bit in fiction.
I wonder why !
Arguably, the residents of the Marvel Universe have a BETTER case for atheism because of the all the “god” characters walking around.
In our universe, there’s no examples of any divine beings to compare with the Christian fantasy. In Marvel-Earth, they can point to Thor, Hercules, et al, and say, “See? These guys aren’t all-powerful and flawless Agents of Omnipotence… so why should we believe YOUR guy’s any better?”
They need to get Deadpool in there. He doesn’t believe in ANYTHING.
@ Gregory Greenwood: Speaking of defeating the Pope and getting better clothes, the Authority have you beat in both respects: first, most of ’em wear fairly normal clothes (the exceptions being Swift’s flightsuit, Apollo’s super-spandex (you need to be aerodynamic when flying at Mach 5, dude!), and Midnighter’s body armor–though he does a have a cool leather trenchcoat on at all times). Second, they kill GOD in one the first story-arcs.
This reminds me of the Atheist Apocalypse.
My recent play THE FAITHKILLER (had a long run in DC earlier this year) will be read in New York on January 23rd of next year… and it’s all about an atheist superhero. (Center for Inquiry in DC did a talk-back with me after the last run… it was a blast.) Anyway, any NY fans of PZ should feel free to Google for the details and come on by…
Actually, putting it in the hypothalamus, with projections to the posterior pituitary would actually make a lot of sense.
…if it was a nonapeptide.
Fantomex looks (and acts) almost exactly like DC character the Midnighter.
Which is awesome, because the Midnighter is a screaming queen. Also. Additionally.
Pix, plz.
@55 re: Mr. Terrific
That was my least favorite part of the JSA run because I think the author (who is a religious reichistani–he also hates on Obsidian because he’s gay, recently he hated on WW for being a strawman feminazi, and he’s also self-righteously “not a racist” but adheres to this simplistic narrative about race in America and seems to fundamentally understand nothing, but …. aaargh, perfect DC writer, btw, since it is the authoritarian CB universe), Geoff Johns really seems to want to say that all atheists are as irrational as Michael Holt, who refuses to believe in God in a universe where God fucking exists, when actually Geoff Johns is the idiot, writing about the stubborn atheist in a god-soaked planet when he’s the stubborn theist on a god-less planet, I mean hello, you ARE Michael Holt, you blithering dumbass.
I mean, yes, carry on, it’s not like he didn’t ruin JSA for me or anything.
@ Rob
Page 3 of the preview (Authority: the Lost Year, which is Keith Giffen, the author of the LOBO Christmas Special, finishing up a storyline started by Grant Morrisson, who had dropped it 2 1/2 issues in in a fit of pique/boredom/better cash offer from someone else): Midnighter mentions the killing God incident. Yay, continuity.
The Warren Ellis Stormwatch/Authority run made unabashed references to atheism. I think there’s even a line in Change or Die where the narrator scoffs at anyone literally believing in religion.
Regarding atheists in fictional worlds with gods… well, it’s discussed in detail here.
(Warning: TVtropes.org has been known to suck up entire afternoons of reading time…)
@JSW #27
It was Captain America who died recently, (and I believe has been replaced. The original may have come back though, I really don’t read CA so I’m not certain about that), not Captain Marvel, unless you count his zombie versions death as him dieing.
@dennisnahas #63, ah, I didn’t catch that. Yeah, cancer is the only really permanent way to kill a comic book character.
Slightly on topic, but I own a comic book store in Hurricane, WV, called “DMC Comics”, and you’re all invited for godless video gaming, D&D, and of course reading comic books. We have this issue BTW, and I don’t care for Wolverine or Deadpool (have both their first appearances tho, Hulk 181 and New Mutants 98), but I have a ton of Blackest Night, great reading. But forgive our website, it sucks :(
@70: He believes in the yellow boxes.
Rob: In what world do the Engineer’s and the Doctor’s duds count as “fairly normal clothes”? The only two members of the Authority who dress anything like ordinary civilians are Jack Hawksmoor and Jenny Sparks/Quantum. 2 out of 7 is not “most”.
killyosaur: The Original Marvel Comics Captain Marvel died way back in 1982. There was a Skrull who impersonated him in the “Secret Invasion” crossover who died recently, though.
Warren Ellis has been on the atheist kick for quite some time back,
http://michaelk42.tumblr.com/post/239424558/still-one-of-my-favorite-bits
link to Supergod #1 preview
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2009/09/03/preview-of-supergod-by-warren-ellis-and-garrie-gastonny/
That’s a Transmetropolitan page up there in that Tumblr post of mine, btw.
Supergod is really about creating superhumans in a sort of arms race and the terrible things that result.
“Praying to be saved by a man who can fly will get you killed”
Is the tagline of #2.
How the 6 Million Dollar Man analog must be kept appeased is of particular interest to those here.
And a comment I thought was quite good from the Whitechapel forums:
“I don’t know. The weaponization of god is nice and all, but it’s ultimately theological morality made literal. The nationalist motivations for building a god (like a bomb) is a simplified blending of moral determinism and abstention. In the past, nations relied on god to disassociate their actions from their consequences, whereas today we are coming (slowly) to the realization that humanity is improved by anticipating and accepting the consequences of actions as opposed (to) blanketing them (in) religious rhetoric. So the creation of god is, perhaps, the ultimate method of divorcing oneself from their actions, and in that sense, the premise can fit snugly in about any historical period better than our modern/postmodern world.”
— Tecumseh in Whitechapel SUPERGOD 1 talk thread
@ (PS: do any of you really refuse to believe in “anything greater than yourselves”?)
I believe in the possibility that there may be something out there that is greater than me, but in imagining such I thing I still see no need to worship it.
Interesting…people seem to feel something greater than themselves at work..forces..something indescribable…and they want to save the world. This alone is encouraging! Athiest or not, that people seem to want to save the world in whatever context is sweet.
That cartoon dude has a nice ass, don’t you think?
Fighting over how we humans chose to define some indefinable Force or God or engaging in a team building activity to create waring sides on an issue over love for some invisible force is a pointless waste of perfectly good energy to me. If anyone’s freedom is encroached upon..then I want to don the superhero suit too.
As long as I keep from being an oppressor and a belief bully, I’m good.
Opinions…Are we all just wasting our time?
>…sounds more like a stereotype of Atheists held by the religious.
This. Framing atheists as soulless egomaniac machines (who, if you read what they’re actually saying, essentially state that they have no choice in the matter) is really no better than ignoring them entirely. Being programmed to not believe is almost as bad as being programmed to believe (I’m awarding it marginally higher value because at least it’s correct).
And no, I think he has a dreadful arse. Or more like no arse at all… really, they could give the women/gays something to ogle ):|